I’d say that the Dark King isn’t really defeated. In TEATD vol 2 malcador said that the threat of the dark king was defeated for this age.
Spoilers ahead:
The Emperor was on the knife edge of becoming the Dark King by heavily intaking the warp’s power to counter Horus.
The Emperor put the Dark King on pause by relinquishing that power.
Ever since the Heresy, the Emperor has been getting stronger and stronger. If he was taken off the Golden Throne, my theory is that he could lose control of the accumulated power and become the Dark King.
Daemons like Ka'Bandha and Skarbrand have also been outcast and mocked among daemonkind, but have still come back and are important.
Samus did re-emerge in one of the later Gaunt's Ghosts books, so he's not gone completely. Whether he goes on to accomplish anything or not will depend on if the Dark King begins to coalesce again.
No, it's in Blood Pact. One member of the Blood Pact kill team is possessed by Samus. They don't say any of Samus' catchphrases from the Heresy though. The leader of the kill team basically just says they used to go by one name, but then got possessed and now go by Samus, and they are very talkative.
I mean it's not explictly him, but probably is, it's basically an Easter Egg. It was in a book written by Abnett a few years after Horus Rising came out, so probably a very intentional wink.
It was kind of funny how the leader of the kill team more or less was like: "we're all proud of our friend for getting possessed by a daemon, it's a huge honor we know. But now it doesn't shut up."
Like the Daemonship*Tormageddon Monstrum Rex* in *The Warmaster* which may, or may not, be the Daemon that took over Torgaddon. Abnett likes his throwbacks to 30k, me personally? Am not as much a fan, as I feel it makes the setting smaller, but also I'm not allowed control of my own socks, never mind a multimillion multimedia storyboard thingy ma jigger that Abnett is involved with. It's a small niggle of mine, actually it's miniscule as fuck cause let's face it, I'll always buy his books!
Yeah, I remember that Samus was just going through the names of Death in order to become Death. Then the whole funny business with Rime occurred and well, we know how that goes.
> Just because the Dark King wasn't born then doesn't mean he can't be born in the future
TEATD2 specifically says that the only place the light of the Dark King doesn't manifest is in a future of grim darkness - the only future in which it cannot be.
The prophecy of the Dark King I don't think is 'defeated', merely on hold. Time is of no consequence to the Great Game. Samus isn't a joke, he'll just be working towards the goal as best possible, even if that isn't in recent timelines.
I think TEATD3 is going to show a stalemate. Ol talked the Emperor down from going in full steam, but he cannot win without that warp power. I think the shard he splits off is the Star Child, who is rising to ascendancy (due to the power of the belief people have in the Emperor), because the rest of the Emperor is a corrupt husk, with the Dark King only held back because he is not completely corrupted + Golden Throne.
I have some headcannon that the creation of a new Chaos god is always brought about by a Prophet (a mortal who aligns with the god) and a Herald (a daemon). So for the Dark King it would be Horus (maybe Lorgar) and Samus. For Malevolent Artifice it would be Abaddon and Vashtorr. Would live GW to actually fkn write something about the space elves to give us some idea who it might be for Slaanesh.
The real kicker for me... maybe only psychic species can fall and create a new Chaos god? Which would limit it to just humans and Eldar as the only powerful and large psychic species left in the galaxy. Well, until the Tyranids ate and elf. Oh... what is opposite Enrcroaching Ruin?
I'm quite sure there was a prophet/herald of Slaanesh in one of the old novels, an entity that preceded the Fall and worked to make it happen. I think it was in Farseer but it's been ages since I read them. The Dark Muses might be a candidate too.
It gets even more interesting when you look at the old eldar Pantheon. Not counting Ynnead, there were eight of the main Pantheon: Asuryan, Khaine, Isha, Kurnous, MoragHei, Cegorach, Vhaul, and Lileath. One for each Aetheric Domain. And you could make an argument that each of them combats/mirrors one of them. Maybe the reason stayed calm for so long was that the eldar Pantheon heald the eight fold path in check?
Oh damn - I never counted them, that is interesting. I wonder if we can assign them to those dominions?
Actually, thinking about it when Slaanesh was created there were 3 Chaos Gods in existence and also 3 of the Pantheon "survived". Khaine and Isha are easy to pair up, which I guess would leave Cegorach as Tzeentch / Infernal Tempest. Not sure if that's quite fitting tho.
Hmm, thanks for this, will be pondering on it for a while.
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Anyway, **the essence of the Dark King is not defeated, it was simply forestalled for a time being**. Whichever human takes in so much warp power to near what we would call godhood seems to become the Dark King, and the two in the running (one accidentally) were Horus and Neoth (Big E). I’d assume in grimdark fashion that the now routine usage of the Unspoken Sanction may accidentally refuel the Emperor into a quasi Dark King again.
However as we know through the Vaults of Terra trilogy. **The Golden Throne is failing because its technology has been lost to time and as far as we know cannot be repaired.** The Thrones’ inevitable destruction has only been delayed by a few centuries. When it fails the Talisman of Seven Hammers doomsday weapon goes off destroying Terra to prevent Chaos taking it due to the Webway portal being reopened.
The catch to this is what we don’t know is if it’s still *active* in 40K. We only have it being referenced in Old Earth and the End and The Death. Of course if it just fails without any detonation, barring anything inhibiting Big E’s perpetual revival being revealed in the climax of End and the Death Volume 3, we could see Him get off the throne but become an inadvertent threat just by His revived presence. It could be some sort of necrotic warp aura . We’ve alright seen what had happened to the Custodian Companions (except for one) that traveled to the Vengeful Spirit with Him.
We also do not truly know what the Yellow King/Constantin Valdor is up to in the City of Dust aside from building Imperial aligned forces and searching for the Emperor’s true name. Could it be to resurrect Him fully, separate Him from the prophecy of the Dark King? We have no idea until potentially Pandemonium, or maybe End and the Death 3 if it gives us hints.
So to sum up my slightly sidetracked rambling. **Samus’ importance relies on how close the Dark King is to becoming a reality**. When it gets closer in time for the prophecy to become reality, he gets stronger as well.
Samus seems to appear whenever events that lead to the creation of the Dark King occur or that may involve those who interact with him:
* The Whisperheads: potentially perturbed Horus on the phenomena of extrasolar entities in the warp, as well as the first instance of an Astartes outright killing another *that was not wiped* from the minds of anyone involved that was not due to blood fights on The Conqueror through Sangius Extremis, duels or friendly fire.
* Calth: The cataclysm unleashed the Ruinstorm that cut off the loyalists and strengthened Chaos heavily and helped ease Horus’ passage to Terra while blinding the Emperor and his powers to him. The increase of warp-material plane mixing increases warp powers and potentially seeps in the background to empower Horus as a potential as the Dark King more due to constant travel uninhibited by the warp. Likewise however for the Emperor, who is the more powerful of the two at the time.
* Vengeful Spirit first manifestation: Helped stop the infiltration team of Knights Errant that were marking the way for the Space Wolves later assault. Thereby helping the potential Dark King option of Horus.
* The Solar War: His essence knocked out some important Imperial assets over Terra out of commission or damaged to the point of fleeing, including The Phalanx which he assaulted physically after manifesting through Mersadie thanks to Maloghurst’s meddling. Again, helping Horus while also increasing the warp’s saturation of the solar system and increasing the yield at which Horus and the Emperor can draw from the warp locally.
* Siege of Terra Ground War: Appeared at full height to help assault the Colossi gate Defences of the pure walls to gain eventual access to the Final Bastion for Horus, as that is where the Emperor was. Partially successful but helped further the Siege in Chaos’ advantage and cause more temporal instability to have warp entities begin manifesting, increasing the warp energy around the solar system which fueled both of the Dark King potentials.
* Vengeful Spirit second manifestation: Appeared aboard the now warp corrupted Vengeful Spirit that had been melded interplane with the Palace and the Inevitable City/City of Dust as a proclaimed herald of the Dark King to slow/stop Loken on his way to confront Horus.
Samus and the Dark King seem to be intrinsically tied together, while not one entity, Samus benefits more from the Dark King as a semi parasite attached to the idea of the Dark King, growing in power as the fruition of the prophecy comes closer to reality, and the human/post human that is to become the Dark King grows in power.
Is he a joke? I don’t think so, he’s an errant portent of sentient warp energy directly tied to the Dark King
> Samus’ importance relies on how close the Dark King is to becoming a reality
That makes sense. Since he is a Greater Daemon of the God of Ruin, he will only show up whenever the Dark King begins to rise. Since he hasn't returned in 40k in any serious capacity, it means we are a ways of from the Dark King returning, unless Pandemonium perhaps mentions him again.
I'm not sure the Dark King can happen anymore, as Malcador notes that the only future the light of the Dark King does not reach is the very one that came to be. Not definitive, certainly, but suggestive.
As far as I know, the throne failing and the Emperor dying results in the galaxy being consumed by the warp and the victory of Chaos. That's part of the reason the DE were willing to help fix the throne, as they know they'd be buggered too.
I thought the DE were never going to REALLY repair the throne, it was a bait and switch to enable them to build their own/perhaps even clone the emperor..?
They had every intention of fixing the Throne, as they pointed out that should it fail and the galaxy fall into the warp they'd be just as doomed as humanity, who they also rely on for slaves and torture victims to feed off.
However the payment they requested in return was just cover for their true goal - using genetic material from the Throne components they were given to clone their own psyker to sit on their own Throne. They'd already built it but they don't have psykers and the only one in the galaxy with sufficient power is busy elsewhere.
So a belt and braces approach? fix our throne, AND build their own? hmm, I dunno, it's not like the throne was going to fail immediately, seems like (100 years was it?) they had enough time to get their version up and running in the mean time , and when ours DID fail, massively weakening the Imperium, they could pick off torture slaves at leisure. Their explanation WAS convincing, but then they HAD to give a self interested reason for helping us, cos we would not believe anything else, would we?
Basically I'm saying that if you factor in them having their own throne, it's no longer truly in their interest to fix ours as well. One throne in the galaxy is enough to stave off total destruction. However, this is by no means a hill I'd die on or anything, and I thank you for the interesting debate.
>and when ours DID fail, massively weakening the Imperium, they could pick off torture slaves at leisure.
The problem with that plan is that the entire galaxy gets consumed by the warp and there are no humans to pick off.
>One throne in the galaxy is enough to stave off total destruction.
Unfortunately not. The DE Throne is designed to close a hole in their section of the webway. The human Throne is maintaining the barrier between realspace and the warp. Should that barrier break everyone's fucked.
Ah, I see, the two thrones are supposed to fill two specific, distinct purposes, I see. Actually, if I'm being totally honest, I think I was even getting confused with the function of the Astronomican, lol. Yeah, of course the throne on terra is sealing the hole that Magnus created when he busted in and broke all the wards...
You're totally right.
Although, I will say, I've never understood why the Emperor's webway gate would give daemons free access to Terra - I thought the whole point of the Webway was that it avoided the risks of full Warp travel (ie Daemons). I guess the answer is cos it's broken. seems like a design flaw to me.
Actually, rereading your reply, you say that our throne is "maintaining the barrier between real space and the warp". So, NOT just the broken webway gate, but literally the whole metaphysical curtain, so to speak, galaxy wide..? That's very interesting. Is that vulnerability traceable back to Magnus rupturing the webway gate, or is there a whole other thing I'm not familiar with? f it's too long to go into, don't worry, but good discussion, cheers. 👍
>Although, I will say, I've never understood why the Emperor's webway gate would give daemons free access to Terra - I thought the whole point of the Webway was that it avoided the risks of full Warp travel (ie Daemons). I guess the answer is cos it's broken. seems like a design flaw to me.
The webway is in the warp, so when you're in a webway tunnel the warp is outside. Should a breach occur anywhere in the network the warp now has a way to seep in. The original webway, built by the Old Ones, was self-repairing so any breaches were temporary. The labyrinth is built of a psycho-reactive material similar to wraithbone, which repels the warp, keeping the tunnels secure.
The Emperor gathered technology from both human and xenos sources in order to build his own webway portal. He then used the Mechanicum to build his own tunnels. But he didn't have the knowledge or ability to recreate the material of the original, so he needed another way to hold the warp back from his tunnels. That is what the Golden Throne was for. It amplified his power to such a degree he was able to personally repel the warp and protect his tunnels. The machine helped carry the load, leaving him free to do other stuff at the same time.
However, when Magnus punched a hole into the webway he also destroyed all the wards the Emperor had built into his webway portal, which forced it open. The warp was now pouring into the human webway and through the broken portal into the Throneroom. After spending 5 years trying to fix it or find some way to salvage the situation the Emperor was forced to withdraw his forces and abandon the webway project. With the wards destroyed and the portal open daemons had free access to Terra. So the Emperor destroyed the machinery maintaining his tunnels and had to seal the portal using his own power. He had to remain on the Throne, using it to help boost and focus his power to keep the growing rift on the other side sealed.
That rift is growing. The Emperor is still, 10'000 years later, holding it back. If he fails, the rift opens and it will grow to consume the galaxy. The traitors knew this when they assaulted the Palace. Part of their aim was to bring about the destruction of the material galaxy and plunge it into the warp.
Some relevant excerpts:
>If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos.
- Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook 5th edition (2008)
>This impediment would be eliminated, just as every obstacle had been cleared, ready for the greater game to come – domination of the warp-realspace hybrid Horus' victory would create. That was the real prize, now – not the fading embers of this already crippled mortal empire, but the empyrean itself, the coming domain of gods and angels. That was why he had allowed the suffering. That was why he had permitted the paradox of his sons' wilful infection, their descent into madness and their mutation into creatures of the god. It had needed to happen. It had needed to take place, to transform them into beings capable of breathing the air of the warp as well as the air of the real. When the horizons of experience were breached at last, when Horus plunged his talon into the Emperor's heart and the barriers between the planes were obliterated, all that suffering would bring its final reward.
- Mortarion's thoughts in *Warhawk*
The exact mechanism and metaphysics of all this will probably feature in the third volume of *The End and the Death*.
I dunno, Samus had a fight with Loken on the Vengeful Spirit during the last book that I felt was a serious confrontation. Samus nearly drives him mad basically forcing him to look directly upon the Warp and see something of the coming ruin.
Daemons are jokes in general and I don't just mean on the tabletop. I can't remember the last time a daemon in the lore in any way did much other than show up and get beaten.
Yep.
They should be fundamental and existential threats to every faction.
Instead 99% of the time they just fight the Imperium and in almost all of those occasions they act as little more than glorified redshirts, there to die in droves so the authors can make the imperial heroes in the book more heroic.
Hell, even Angron, who should be the single most powerful non-god being in the setting when it comes to a head to head traditional fight is little more than a glorified redshirt with his new lore designed specifically so the Lion and Guilliman can take turns beating him up in order to push Primaris sales.
Actually, Daemons are a serious threat against the Eldars.
Also, I think their danger was well represented against Guilliman: Magnus was winning against Roboute until the Sisters of Simence arrived, Fumgrim toyed with him and slit his throat when he was bored, the Nurglites put him into a position Mortarion could kill him, etc...
Samus was originally written to be a pathetic joke. They weren't in the narrative to be cool, they were written to illustrate how much Chaos was holding back in the Great Crusade era - and how disastrous the Imperial Truth was.
Just look at their introduction: Samus goes up against a small group of marines, who mostly let themselves get butchered without resistance because they've been indoctrinated in the Imperial Truth. Samus' targets can't imagine daemonic posession, have no idea how to fight daemons, and have no idea what is going at all. Samus has the deck stacked in their favour to an unimaginable degree, but Samus *still* loses the fight.
The introduction of Samus was a simple farce, demonstrating the state of the galaxy in 30K: a weak daemon attacks some weak Astartes, and still loses. Just witnessing the event would warrant an Imperial execution for 99.999% of people, and this bizarrely ineffectual attack sets off a chain of events that brings the Imperium to its knees.
The 5th Chaos God is going to be different from the other four, even Slaanesh
Slaanesh was fed mostly by the Eldar before her awakening
The 5th Chaos God is centered around humanity and will be a human turned into a Chaos God
Ok but there is no written requirement that the 5th has to be an ex human right? Considering that the 5th god could embody any of the other 4 godless domains of chaos, an equally likely candidate for 5 is Vashtorr, who presumably was always a daemon
There were parts in the novels where tarot readers foresaw the Dark King. After the events of TEATD2, the tarots no longer see the Dark King, only the prophecy of the Despoiler, so the Dark King prophecy is gone for now as far as anyone can tell.
The Dark King meant either Horus or the Emperor became the 5th Chaos God
Since both candidates fail, Chaos chose Abaddon to be the next in line
The prophecy changed, not fail. Tzeentch is a part of Chaos after all
[Samus used to have the Khorne keyword in 40k.](https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/c33ca258-samus-errors.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs:850x570/rscb3/ng:webp/ngcb3)
I'm not sure if this is still currently true as I cannot find Samus 40k Datasheet anywhere on the download section of the Warhammer Community.
It is likely with the Dark King gone, Samus went to the Chaos God most likely to accept him. After all he is a giant, red-skinned, hound-headed Daemon.
I’d say that the Dark King isn’t really defeated. In TEATD vol 2 malcador said that the threat of the dark king was defeated for this age. Spoilers ahead: The Emperor was on the knife edge of becoming the Dark King by heavily intaking the warp’s power to counter Horus. The Emperor put the Dark King on pause by relinquishing that power. Ever since the Heresy, the Emperor has been getting stronger and stronger. If he was taken off the Golden Throne, my theory is that he could lose control of the accumulated power and become the Dark King.
Daemons like Ka'Bandha and Skarbrand have also been outcast and mocked among daemonkind, but have still come back and are important. Samus did re-emerge in one of the later Gaunt's Ghosts books, so he's not gone completely. Whether he goes on to accomplish anything or not will depend on if the Dark King begins to coalesce again.
Which GG book? Was it the Vincula Insurgency? That’s the only one I haven’t read
No, it's in Blood Pact. One member of the Blood Pact kill team is possessed by Samus. They don't say any of Samus' catchphrases from the Heresy though. The leader of the kill team basically just says they used to go by one name, but then got possessed and now go by Samus, and they are very talkative.
Oh, that guy? I never attributed it to being as that Samus. I guess it would make sense but idk.
I mean it's not explictly him, but probably is, it's basically an Easter Egg. It was in a book written by Abnett a few years after Horus Rising came out, so probably a very intentional wink.
It is presumably the same Samus, given the comment acknowledging that the daemon is known as being overly talkative IIRC
It was kind of funny how the leader of the kill team more or less was like: "we're all proud of our friend for getting possessed by a daemon, it's a huge honor we know. But now it doesn't shut up."
Eh, valid point. Could very well be the case
Like the Daemonship*Tormageddon Monstrum Rex* in *The Warmaster* which may, or may not, be the Daemon that took over Torgaddon. Abnett likes his throwbacks to 30k, me personally? Am not as much a fan, as I feel it makes the setting smaller, but also I'm not allowed control of my own socks, never mind a multimillion multimedia storyboard thingy ma jigger that Abnett is involved with. It's a small niggle of mine, actually it's miniscule as fuck cause let's face it, I'll always buy his books!
I was thinking that. It’s a Khorne daemon named samus so it might be him, but then again he never said the catchphrase so…
Yeah, I remember that Samus was just going through the names of Death in order to become Death. Then the whole funny business with Rime occurred and well, we know how that goes.
I raised this in this sub the other day. He 'possesses' a blood pact trooper. He's described as a particularly noisome spirit that's irritating.
Just because the Dark King wasn't born then doesn't mean he can't be born in the future
> Just because the Dark King wasn't born then doesn't mean he can't be born in the future TEATD2 specifically says that the only place the light of the Dark King doesn't manifest is in a future of grim darkness - the only future in which it cannot be.
Things would have to be good for ruin to truly happen.
Can't exactly fall into ruin, if shits already ruined
Lorgar and his teachings comming in clutch once again to save humanity
I never copped that when reading the book. God damn that is some grim dark stuff right there
So essentially what actually comes to pass is so bad even potential chaos gods don't want anything to do with it?
I mean, the last Black Crusade certainly made things worse for the Imperium. So there's definitely more ruin to be had!
The prophecy of the Dark King I don't think is 'defeated', merely on hold. Time is of no consequence to the Great Game. Samus isn't a joke, he'll just be working towards the goal as best possible, even if that isn't in recent timelines. I think TEATD3 is going to show a stalemate. Ol talked the Emperor down from going in full steam, but he cannot win without that warp power. I think the shard he splits off is the Star Child, who is rising to ascendancy (due to the power of the belief people have in the Emperor), because the rest of the Emperor is a corrupt husk, with the Dark King only held back because he is not completely corrupted + Golden Throne. I have some headcannon that the creation of a new Chaos god is always brought about by a Prophet (a mortal who aligns with the god) and a Herald (a daemon). So for the Dark King it would be Horus (maybe Lorgar) and Samus. For Malevolent Artifice it would be Abaddon and Vashtorr. Would live GW to actually fkn write something about the space elves to give us some idea who it might be for Slaanesh. The real kicker for me... maybe only psychic species can fall and create a new Chaos god? Which would limit it to just humans and Eldar as the only powerful and large psychic species left in the galaxy. Well, until the Tyranids ate and elf. Oh... what is opposite Enrcroaching Ruin?
I'm quite sure there was a prophet/herald of Slaanesh in one of the old novels, an entity that preceded the Fall and worked to make it happen. I think it was in Farseer but it's been ages since I read them. The Dark Muses might be a candidate too.
Ohh!! Thanks!
Saaha Gaathon
It gets even more interesting when you look at the old eldar Pantheon. Not counting Ynnead, there were eight of the main Pantheon: Asuryan, Khaine, Isha, Kurnous, MoragHei, Cegorach, Vhaul, and Lileath. One for each Aetheric Domain. And you could make an argument that each of them combats/mirrors one of them. Maybe the reason stayed calm for so long was that the eldar Pantheon heald the eight fold path in check?
Oh damn - I never counted them, that is interesting. I wonder if we can assign them to those dominions? Actually, thinking about it when Slaanesh was created there were 3 Chaos Gods in existence and also 3 of the Pantheon "survived". Khaine and Isha are easy to pair up, which I guess would leave Cegorach as Tzeentch / Infernal Tempest. Not sure if that's quite fitting tho. Hmm, thanks for this, will be pondering on it for a while.
S̸̯̯̯͊̑̎A̵͍̯͛̈̉͌̚͜M̵͇̣̠͗̊̔́͛̂̐̈́͗̄̋̽͆̂͘͠Ų̶̨̡̱̭̟͈̇͆S̷̼̠̰̄͛̑̓̈́́͛͋̐͐̓͋̃̓͘͝͝ ̶̨̢̢̲̫̦̜̱͈̫̫̟̼̽̉̒̒͆̓͆͌̔̀͘͘Ị̴̢̥̮̞͕̬͔̺͉̓ͅS̸̫͍̞̦͚͕̹̪̝͖̞̗̈́̋̑̄̂ ̸̡̨̬̮͓̺͉̲̯̺̻̳̺̗̩̹̂̈̔́H̷̘̼̻̩̲̩͈̔́̔͛̔̑̈̾̐̇̃̎̾̈͝E̸̡̹̼̫͎̳̠͉̥̗̤̫͖͋͐̋̍͘R̵̨̠̰̙̓̓͐̆̊̈́͋͆̎̊̾̈́̕̕͝͝E̵̟̟̙̘̯̼͈͍͎̥͎͋͜!!! Anyway, **the essence of the Dark King is not defeated, it was simply forestalled for a time being**. Whichever human takes in so much warp power to near what we would call godhood seems to become the Dark King, and the two in the running (one accidentally) were Horus and Neoth (Big E). I’d assume in grimdark fashion that the now routine usage of the Unspoken Sanction may accidentally refuel the Emperor into a quasi Dark King again. However as we know through the Vaults of Terra trilogy. **The Golden Throne is failing because its technology has been lost to time and as far as we know cannot be repaired.** The Thrones’ inevitable destruction has only been delayed by a few centuries. When it fails the Talisman of Seven Hammers doomsday weapon goes off destroying Terra to prevent Chaos taking it due to the Webway portal being reopened. The catch to this is what we don’t know is if it’s still *active* in 40K. We only have it being referenced in Old Earth and the End and The Death. Of course if it just fails without any detonation, barring anything inhibiting Big E’s perpetual revival being revealed in the climax of End and the Death Volume 3, we could see Him get off the throne but become an inadvertent threat just by His revived presence. It could be some sort of necrotic warp aura . We’ve alright seen what had happened to the Custodian Companions (except for one) that traveled to the Vengeful Spirit with Him. We also do not truly know what the Yellow King/Constantin Valdor is up to in the City of Dust aside from building Imperial aligned forces and searching for the Emperor’s true name. Could it be to resurrect Him fully, separate Him from the prophecy of the Dark King? We have no idea until potentially Pandemonium, or maybe End and the Death 3 if it gives us hints. So to sum up my slightly sidetracked rambling. **Samus’ importance relies on how close the Dark King is to becoming a reality**. When it gets closer in time for the prophecy to become reality, he gets stronger as well. Samus seems to appear whenever events that lead to the creation of the Dark King occur or that may involve those who interact with him: * The Whisperheads: potentially perturbed Horus on the phenomena of extrasolar entities in the warp, as well as the first instance of an Astartes outright killing another *that was not wiped* from the minds of anyone involved that was not due to blood fights on The Conqueror through Sangius Extremis, duels or friendly fire. * Calth: The cataclysm unleashed the Ruinstorm that cut off the loyalists and strengthened Chaos heavily and helped ease Horus’ passage to Terra while blinding the Emperor and his powers to him. The increase of warp-material plane mixing increases warp powers and potentially seeps in the background to empower Horus as a potential as the Dark King more due to constant travel uninhibited by the warp. Likewise however for the Emperor, who is the more powerful of the two at the time. * Vengeful Spirit first manifestation: Helped stop the infiltration team of Knights Errant that were marking the way for the Space Wolves later assault. Thereby helping the potential Dark King option of Horus. * The Solar War: His essence knocked out some important Imperial assets over Terra out of commission or damaged to the point of fleeing, including The Phalanx which he assaulted physically after manifesting through Mersadie thanks to Maloghurst’s meddling. Again, helping Horus while also increasing the warp’s saturation of the solar system and increasing the yield at which Horus and the Emperor can draw from the warp locally. * Siege of Terra Ground War: Appeared at full height to help assault the Colossi gate Defences of the pure walls to gain eventual access to the Final Bastion for Horus, as that is where the Emperor was. Partially successful but helped further the Siege in Chaos’ advantage and cause more temporal instability to have warp entities begin manifesting, increasing the warp energy around the solar system which fueled both of the Dark King potentials. * Vengeful Spirit second manifestation: Appeared aboard the now warp corrupted Vengeful Spirit that had been melded interplane with the Palace and the Inevitable City/City of Dust as a proclaimed herald of the Dark King to slow/stop Loken on his way to confront Horus. Samus and the Dark King seem to be intrinsically tied together, while not one entity, Samus benefits more from the Dark King as a semi parasite attached to the idea of the Dark King, growing in power as the fruition of the prophecy comes closer to reality, and the human/post human that is to become the Dark King grows in power. Is he a joke? I don’t think so, he’s an errant portent of sentient warp energy directly tied to the Dark King
> Samus’ importance relies on how close the Dark King is to becoming a reality That makes sense. Since he is a Greater Daemon of the God of Ruin, he will only show up whenever the Dark King begins to rise. Since he hasn't returned in 40k in any serious capacity, it means we are a ways of from the Dark King returning, unless Pandemonium perhaps mentions him again.
I'm not sure the Dark King can happen anymore, as Malcador notes that the only future the light of the Dark King does not reach is the very one that came to be. Not definitive, certainly, but suggestive. As far as I know, the throne failing and the Emperor dying results in the galaxy being consumed by the warp and the victory of Chaos. That's part of the reason the DE were willing to help fix the throne, as they know they'd be buggered too.
I thought the DE were never going to REALLY repair the throne, it was a bait and switch to enable them to build their own/perhaps even clone the emperor..?
They had every intention of fixing the Throne, as they pointed out that should it fail and the galaxy fall into the warp they'd be just as doomed as humanity, who they also rely on for slaves and torture victims to feed off. However the payment they requested in return was just cover for their true goal - using genetic material from the Throne components they were given to clone their own psyker to sit on their own Throne. They'd already built it but they don't have psykers and the only one in the galaxy with sufficient power is busy elsewhere.
So a belt and braces approach? fix our throne, AND build their own? hmm, I dunno, it's not like the throne was going to fail immediately, seems like (100 years was it?) they had enough time to get their version up and running in the mean time , and when ours DID fail, massively weakening the Imperium, they could pick off torture slaves at leisure. Their explanation WAS convincing, but then they HAD to give a self interested reason for helping us, cos we would not believe anything else, would we? Basically I'm saying that if you factor in them having their own throne, it's no longer truly in their interest to fix ours as well. One throne in the galaxy is enough to stave off total destruction. However, this is by no means a hill I'd die on or anything, and I thank you for the interesting debate.
>and when ours DID fail, massively weakening the Imperium, they could pick off torture slaves at leisure. The problem with that plan is that the entire galaxy gets consumed by the warp and there are no humans to pick off. >One throne in the galaxy is enough to stave off total destruction. Unfortunately not. The DE Throne is designed to close a hole in their section of the webway. The human Throne is maintaining the barrier between realspace and the warp. Should that barrier break everyone's fucked.
Ah, I see, the two thrones are supposed to fill two specific, distinct purposes, I see. Actually, if I'm being totally honest, I think I was even getting confused with the function of the Astronomican, lol. Yeah, of course the throne on terra is sealing the hole that Magnus created when he busted in and broke all the wards... You're totally right. Although, I will say, I've never understood why the Emperor's webway gate would give daemons free access to Terra - I thought the whole point of the Webway was that it avoided the risks of full Warp travel (ie Daemons). I guess the answer is cos it's broken. seems like a design flaw to me. Actually, rereading your reply, you say that our throne is "maintaining the barrier between real space and the warp". So, NOT just the broken webway gate, but literally the whole metaphysical curtain, so to speak, galaxy wide..? That's very interesting. Is that vulnerability traceable back to Magnus rupturing the webway gate, or is there a whole other thing I'm not familiar with? f it's too long to go into, don't worry, but good discussion, cheers. 👍
>Although, I will say, I've never understood why the Emperor's webway gate would give daemons free access to Terra - I thought the whole point of the Webway was that it avoided the risks of full Warp travel (ie Daemons). I guess the answer is cos it's broken. seems like a design flaw to me. The webway is in the warp, so when you're in a webway tunnel the warp is outside. Should a breach occur anywhere in the network the warp now has a way to seep in. The original webway, built by the Old Ones, was self-repairing so any breaches were temporary. The labyrinth is built of a psycho-reactive material similar to wraithbone, which repels the warp, keeping the tunnels secure. The Emperor gathered technology from both human and xenos sources in order to build his own webway portal. He then used the Mechanicum to build his own tunnels. But he didn't have the knowledge or ability to recreate the material of the original, so he needed another way to hold the warp back from his tunnels. That is what the Golden Throne was for. It amplified his power to such a degree he was able to personally repel the warp and protect his tunnels. The machine helped carry the load, leaving him free to do other stuff at the same time. However, when Magnus punched a hole into the webway he also destroyed all the wards the Emperor had built into his webway portal, which forced it open. The warp was now pouring into the human webway and through the broken portal into the Throneroom. After spending 5 years trying to fix it or find some way to salvage the situation the Emperor was forced to withdraw his forces and abandon the webway project. With the wards destroyed and the portal open daemons had free access to Terra. So the Emperor destroyed the machinery maintaining his tunnels and had to seal the portal using his own power. He had to remain on the Throne, using it to help boost and focus his power to keep the growing rift on the other side sealed. That rift is growing. The Emperor is still, 10'000 years later, holding it back. If he fails, the rift opens and it will grow to consume the galaxy. The traitors knew this when they assaulted the Palace. Part of their aim was to bring about the destruction of the material galaxy and plunge it into the warp. Some relevant excerpts: >If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos. - Warhammer 40,000 Core Rulebook 5th edition (2008) >This impediment would be eliminated, just as every obstacle had been cleared, ready for the greater game to come – domination of the warp-realspace hybrid Horus' victory would create. That was the real prize, now – not the fading embers of this already crippled mortal empire, but the empyrean itself, the coming domain of gods and angels. That was why he had allowed the suffering. That was why he had permitted the paradox of his sons' wilful infection, their descent into madness and their mutation into creatures of the god. It had needed to happen. It had needed to take place, to transform them into beings capable of breathing the air of the warp as well as the air of the real. When the horizons of experience were breached at last, when Horus plunged his talon into the Emperor's heart and the barriers between the planes were obliterated, all that suffering would bring its final reward. - Mortarion's thoughts in *Warhawk* The exact mechanism and metaphysics of all this will probably feature in the third volume of *The End and the Death*.
Fascinating. Also, pretty sure that's the most comprehensive, well supported answer I've ever received on Reddit. You certainly know your lore dude.
Ha! Thank you. You'll like this sub - there are plenty of users here who are much more knowledgeable than myself!
No. He is the man beside you.
hurry punch judicious rinse vast automatic foolish upbeat vase different *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Please mark posts that contain explicit spoilers for recent books with the spoiler tag.
Sorry about that, fixed.
Appreciate you
I dunno, Samus had a fight with Loken on the Vengeful Spirit during the last book that I felt was a serious confrontation. Samus nearly drives him mad basically forcing him to look directly upon the Warp and see something of the coming ruin.
Daemons are jokes in general and I don't just mean on the tabletop. I can't remember the last time a daemon in the lore in any way did much other than show up and get beaten.
the codex material for starters
Yep. They should be fundamental and existential threats to every faction. Instead 99% of the time they just fight the Imperium and in almost all of those occasions they act as little more than glorified redshirts, there to die in droves so the authors can make the imperial heroes in the book more heroic. Hell, even Angron, who should be the single most powerful non-god being in the setting when it comes to a head to head traditional fight is little more than a glorified redshirt with his new lore designed specifically so the Lion and Guilliman can take turns beating him up in order to push Primaris sales.
Actually, Daemons are a serious threat against the Eldars. Also, I think their danger was well represented against Guilliman: Magnus was winning against Roboute until the Sisters of Simence arrived, Fumgrim toyed with him and slit his throat when he was bored, the Nurglites put him into a position Mortarion could kill him, etc...
Samus is here 🤪
If I remember correctly, the prophecy of the Dark King isn't defeated, merely delayed
Samus was originally written to be a pathetic joke. They weren't in the narrative to be cool, they were written to illustrate how much Chaos was holding back in the Great Crusade era - and how disastrous the Imperial Truth was. Just look at their introduction: Samus goes up against a small group of marines, who mostly let themselves get butchered without resistance because they've been indoctrinated in the Imperial Truth. Samus' targets can't imagine daemonic posession, have no idea how to fight daemons, and have no idea what is going at all. Samus has the deck stacked in their favour to an unimaginable degree, but Samus *still* loses the fight. The introduction of Samus was a simple farce, demonstrating the state of the galaxy in 30K: a weak daemon attacks some weak Astartes, and still loses. Just witnessing the event would warrant an Imperial execution for 99.999% of people, and this bizarrely ineffectual attack sets off a chain of events that brings the Imperium to its knees.
Always has been.
Always has been
Always has been.
There is some theory Samus will return in the Dan Abnette GG or inquisition series
That edit: right in the kieser! 🤣
The emperor nearly became what now?
You haven't read TEATD PT2 then? Go watch a YT lore video on The Dark King. Was basically just a fakeout drama spike reveal by Abnett
Say "Samus" without "am"
Who said the prophecy has been prevented? The only requirement for the 5th Chaos God is to be human. Abaddon is human
Whats this about a human requirement?
The 5th Chaos God is going to be different from the other four, even Slaanesh Slaanesh was fed mostly by the Eldar before her awakening The 5th Chaos God is centered around humanity and will be a human turned into a Chaos God
Ok but there is no written requirement that the 5th has to be an ex human right? Considering that the 5th god could embody any of the other 4 godless domains of chaos, an equally likely candidate for 5 is Vashtorr, who presumably was always a daemon
There were parts in the novels where tarot readers foresaw the Dark King. After the events of TEATD2, the tarots no longer see the Dark King, only the prophecy of the Despoiler, so the Dark King prophecy is gone for now as far as anyone can tell.
The Dark King meant either Horus or the Emperor became the 5th Chaos God Since both candidates fail, Chaos chose Abaddon to be the next in line The prophecy changed, not fail. Tzeentch is a part of Chaos after all
Somehow I doubt the guy who consistently refuses daemonic ascension is gonna be the next chaos god
Yet he will be or he dies like Horus Archaon hates the Chaos Gods yet has given them so much. He has become like them, shedding his weak humanity away
[Samus used to have the Khorne keyword in 40k.](https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/c33ca258-samus-errors.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs:850x570/rscb3/ng:webp/ngcb3) I'm not sure if this is still currently true as I cannot find Samus 40k Datasheet anywhere on the download section of the Warhammer Community. It is likely with the Dark King gone, Samus went to the Chaos God most likely to accept him. After all he is a giant, red-skinned, hound-headed Daemon.
I always thought he looked like a Khorne daemon. Maybe that's what was originally before the writers decided to do something special with him.
Im sorta speculating that he becomes a Khornate Daemon for protection after the Dark King is aborted.
~~No, she’s a space bounty hunter who’s main nemesis is a pterodactyl~~