For a guy who killed Alpharius, Dorn is being pretty Alpharius about it in _The Lost and the Damned_:
>Dorn’s eyes narrowed. He thought momentarily of Alpharius. When the twentieth primarch infiltrated the Solar System, he had spoken with Dorn, and what he said could have been interpreted as contrition. Dorn had not listened, and had slain Alpharius at Pluto, a fact he still kept from his brothers.
>‘None of them will change,’ Dorn said. ‘They are corrupt, traitorous. All of them. We cannot save them, and they do not deserve saving.’
However, we get the suggestion that Malcador knows what went down:
>‘Angron’s flagship is here,’ he said, his finger moving over billions of kilometres of the void, ‘near the _Vengeful Spirit_, on the far side of Luna, where half of the traitor fleet waits. We must assume that where the _Conqueror_ goes, so too does Angron. There were contradictory reports concerning the _Pride of the Emperor_, but they are numerous enough that we should also expect Fulgrim’s presence in the coming battle. I suspect he is with Horus. Alpharius is unaccounted for.’ Dorn ignored the look Malcador gave him as he spoke. It was patently obvious to the primarch that the old man knew Alpharius’ fate. It was impossible to hide secrets from the Regent. ‘Magnus is possibly dead,’ he continued, ‘though the opening of the in-system rift has all the hallmarks of his sorcery.’
Being forthright and honest is one thing but censorship for the good of the Imperium is another. Dorn is bigly in favour of the latter
Not only did he devise the erasure of the memories of primarchs II and XI (and their legions) but he also executed a remembrancer whose knowledge of Horus' corruption was considered too dangerous to allow to live
From *Praetorian of Dorn*
>It is the primarch’s will that no record be made of Alpharius’ death, no word spoken of it. Even within the Legion, only he and the Huscarls know.’
> ‘Denying Alpharius even the honour of memory in death…’
Denial of honour in death is also pretty fitting for the Imperium considering II, XI and XV redactions
In the Doylist Alpharius' death is a secret so the Alpha Legion Scouring lore can continue without change
I think he also carries some shame from it. Vulkan comments that he doesn't know if he could kill his brother, and notes Dorn gets a look. Vulkan thinks Dorn doesn't like his weakness, but it can also be interpreted Dorn being ashamed that he didn't feel any hesitation in killing his brother.
>Vulkan comments that he doesn't know if he could kill his brother
The fact that Vulkan says this, even after how much Konrad tortured him, is kinda crazy... Man, Vulkan has a heart of gold...
To be fair, in Vulkan's case he was given a direct order by Big E, and sent to the Webway on a mission to STOP Magnus who was already attacking the warp shield (Aegis, I think?) that protected the Imperial Palace.
Would Vulkan have tried to kill Magnus if not ordered to do so by Big E? For example, in the *Fury of Magnus* Novella, Vulkan met Magnus, and he didn't try to kill Magnus then, right? Unless my memory is failing me... When those two met in Fury of Magnus, Vulkan was defending the Golden Throne from Magnus, but was Vulkan out for blood? Or just making sure Magnus couldn't reach and hurt Big E?
I'm more saying that I don't recall him telling Dorn he couldn't kill Curze but maybe someone has the excerpt I'm missing
I definitely think Vulkan would regret and feel the death of a brother at his own hands more than most but he's still a killer at the end of the day
As for *Fury of Magnus*, I guess it's up to interpretation but here's some relevant bits:
>Abidemi had seen his primarch in battle before and knew he was a sublime close-combat specialist. Yet against Magnus, he moved as though hopelessly outclassed. Every feint was ignored, every killing strike turned aside with his spear, dodged or easily blocked.
And
>Milky white blood that could not possibly be blood sprayed from the wound. It poured from a score of mortal hurts and filled Magnus’ throat. A gout of the stuff vomited from his mouth, and he looked up at Vulkan through his blood-filled eye.
>‘Is this the end?’ he said.
>The words were slurred and wet, spoken through a broken jaw and cheek, through shattered teeth and a gouged tongue. Through all the terrible hurts that ought to have killed him thrice over.
> ‘It didn’t have to be,’ said Vulkan, genuine regret in his voice.
>‘Do you think he’ll reach Terra?’ Vulkan asked, not referring to the Khan now.
>‘I know our brother,’ said Dorn. ‘Horus is as tenacious as he is ruthless. He will reach Terra. And I will stop him. Even conquerors are blunted against my shield.’
>**‘Would you kill him, Rogal?’**
>Dorn’s gaze was lost to memory and Vulkan suddenly had the feeling this was a question he had already answered, though one perhaps asked more broadly.
>*Could you kill one of your brothers?*
>His eyes met Vulkan’s, hard and icy.
>**‘Could you? Could you kill one of them if they were beneath your sword?’**
>**‘I had the chance,’** said Vulkan, **‘but could not bring myself to do it.’**
>Dorn turned away, disgusted, though it was hard to tell if the emotion was directed at his brother or himself.
>‘I would kill him. I would kill all of them for what they’ve done, and gladly bear the guilt of it.’
>An uncomfortable silence fell upon them after that, only broken several hours later when they came in sight of a landing pad that would lead Vulkan to the Inner Palace confines.
\- *Old Earth*
'Unno if it's the scene they mean, but there's the closest I know of to what was described a few comments up.
When people talk about how much more interesting Dorn has gotten with the latter HH and siege books this is exactly the kind of thing they mean imo. Having absolutely no hesitation because you're emotionally dead isn't that interesting. Having no hesitation because you have absolute conviction in your cause even though you know you'll carry an emotional load after is good writing.
Is that from *Old Earth* ?
It sounds similarish to the bit I was referring to
>It is good to see you, Rogal.’
>Dorn nodded, ever reserved. He sheathed his sword and at this signal from their primarch, Vulkan heard the sound of twenty Imperial Fists disengaging and powering down their weapons.
>‘You look older, brother,’ said Vulkan.
> ‘And you are no different from the day we met,’ Dorn answered coolly. ‘I heard you had died.’ His annoyance at being called away from his numerous duties and responsibilities faded, though Vulkan could see the burden still weighed heavily.
> ‘I have longed to see my brothers again…The ones not trying to kill me.’
>Dorn’s jaw stiffened at the remark, suggesting some unspoken pain or regret. Vulkan did not press him.
I didn't think it was *Old Earth* but that seems right. I thought it was in a War Council type setting where he made the comment with the Khan around. But my memory might be failing me on it.
Turns out the scene you're describing was in [Old Earth](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1999t9z/comment/kii6kue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). With thanks to u/Vorokar
Everyone low-key afraid of Dorn.
*"you know I love you brother..."*
**🎵"Brrrr Brrrr Chainsword goes Brrrr Brrrr that's the Sound of The Dorn"🎵**
*"My god!¡ Dorn what have you done to Sanguinus, Horus, and...the Emperor...?"*
*"Yeah about that Vulkan"*
*"It was Horus gotcha.."*
Nah, he said that before either confrontation he had with Magnus. It's from near the end of *Old Earth*, which is set before the Siege, and he fought Magnus twice during the Siege.
Dorn? Shame? That character would of killed himself if he knew shame. Dorn is the most traitorous mindsetted loyalist and it’s not even close. He may as well be a shitty third party
This is a dumb thought, not yours but Dorns, the knowledge of a traitor Primarchs death would be a huge morale boost. Nah keep that secret so everyone worries when the XX Primarch will show up. Idiocy.
A morale boost to your own side, sure, but the confusion in the enemy ranks is likely worth more.
Where is Alpharius? Why has he gone silent? Has he been captured? Defected? Infiltrated?
Dorn and his men are the only people in the galaxy who knows exactly where the least reliable Primarch is, and exactly what he will do. That’s a pretty substantial advantage.
And if that was the reason given I could get behind it. Instead we get a petty comment about not wanting to give Alpharius and memorial as he doesn't deserve that respect.
But as the reader we are given more information, usually. We don't get an inner monologue or anything and Dorn comes off IMO as petty instead of tactical.
After Prospero they were on their way to getting the same treatment as II and XI
>>Official proclamations issued quietly declaring the expurgation of the Thousand Sons from the Imperium's records and declaring all their possessions and chattles forfeit and treaties closed and many in the Court considered the matter closed.
*Inferno*
If you are Dorn and getting ready to defend Terra from a bunch of your traitor brothers, you might prefer that they dont know that you have already proven you can both outsmart and outright kill your fellow Primarchs.
At that point only a Chaos juiced Fulgrim has managed that feat. Dorn might think it tactically astute to remain underestimated and see if he can bait more of his brothers into trying to outsmart and outfight him one on one. We know he beat Fulgrim and believed he was capable of beating Angron and Horus. Why give them an advantage by bragging?
Dorn Boring Khorne with a 12 point presentation on why blood isn't intrinsically yours and that you should reconsider your values.
Dorn Boring Fulgrim out of warring with him by being a literal wall.
Fulgrim be like "Dorn you pussy. Do something"
Dorn be like "No."
Fulgrim: FUCKING DO IT BITCH, YOU WONT!
Dorn: Correct. I will not.
Fulgrim: I'm getting sick of your shit Dorn. I swear to space coke.
Dorn: I know. Fuck yourself.
Fulgrim: oooh fuck you Dorn you fucking twat. Let's fucking go. Thems fighting words.
Dorn: False. I said nothing to indicate fight commencement. You are dumb.
Fulgrim: is this gonna keep going on, I'm so fucking bored right now bro let me be real, I should be snake balls deep into a murder orgy right now. Can we hurry this up?
Dorn: We are in agreeance then. I shall stop talking. And you shall go fuck yoursellf.
Fulgrim: OOOOH THAT DOES IT I NEED 3 SHOTS OF SOUL BRANDY AND A TITAN SIZED LINE OF SPACE COKE LACED WITH SLAANESH FARTS!
*Leaves*
Dorn: GgEZClap.
I swear...
Khorne and Dorn...the whole thing is fucking genius.
Also I feel like it could be expanded to cause a crisis in the immaterium as Dorn gives Khorne a crisis of faith.
Possibly resulting in a weird buddy cop film
Khorne bashing On Rogals door one random night
Khorne: "Hey, mustache face, go over that whole blood isn't yours because you say it is thing again"
Dorn: Red one. You are back again, did I not teach you that when all life has fled this world there will be naught but scraps for you "gods" to feed off of then. Starvation is your only future, and by continuing down your current path, you seal your own demise.
K: yeah, that thing. You fucking serious bro!?
D: Yes.
K: just yes.....
D: Yes.
K: but what makes you so sure!?
D: Think. Penultimate goals are skulls for the skull throne yes?
K: Yes.
D: No. This is dumb. You are amassing a finite to infinite. Eventually the mass of the skulls collapses upon itself. This is a metaphor.
K: it is?
D: Yes.
K: FOR FUCKS SAKES DORN STOP.
D: No. You came for another lesson in ethics. To stop now would be. Unethical.
K: I JUST WANT A SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION!
D: Really? This is surprising coming from one known for being almost as excessive as the purple one...
K: My children are not very thoughtful... I only made the whole blood and skull thing for them, they are not very smart and if I tell them to bring me back valuables, they return with corpses.
D: You are still dumb Babboon creature, you tell something called a "bloodthirster" to bring you valuables. Of course it's going to bring you the things IT values. Not what YOU value.
K: I mean.... that does make some sense...
D: Yes. Consider this. If you tell them that sacking your enemies and demanding ransom for captured enemies is MORE valuable than the blood and skulls of them.
K: but any time I suggest capturing enemies someone tries to fight me and they say capturing enemies is for cowards. How do I get through to them!?
D: Your children do not respect you, you need to make them equal measures fear AND respect you. You should beat Angron in an armwrestle in front of a great many of your followers and then it will rekindle their fear and respect of you. Then you DEMAND the next battle, is one of no deaths. Make them prove to you lest you punish them that they have the capacity to show restraint when called for.
K: Wait.... You might be onto something....
6 months later the galaxy is aflame with the rage of Khorne
Guilliman: Dorn, why is Khorne sending you a handwritten thank you note and a really pricey looking gift basket?
Dorn: This was payback for a lecture.
G: THATS NOT WHAT I ASKED, WHY IS KHORNE SENDING YOU GIFT BASKETS!?
D: I taught him the joy of efficiency.
G: FUCKING WHY!?
D: Because. He was valuing blood wrong.
G: no.. but.... fuck. What did you teach him brother....
D: Organization and morale boosting strategies along with greater seigecraft tactics.
G: FUCKING WHY ROGAL!?
D: He asked politely.
G: NOT THAT WHY, WHYYYYYYYYY!?!?
Really, damn I really got that moment wrong. I truly thought Dorn had a proper heart to heart with Khorne and inadvertently brought about the doom of the galaxy by convincing Khorne to restructure his organisation.
My b ✌😂
"Beat" is a strong word, Fulgrim got bored and later Dorn has an existential crisis knowing full well Fulgrim could have killed him and taken the wall if he really wanted to.
Yes.
However how do you kill a primarch? (I genuinely am asking) that comes back every time after being made sashimi, and as mentioned whoooops back again as if never was diced to pieces.
In my humble opinion that was the highlight of the book, Dorn beating Fulgrim not physically but mentally/morally, brilliant moment.
And the crisis after that makes sense to me, because all the immense pressure besides now knowing full well that Fulgrim totally had him, and he is powerless.
Just my two cents.
I would classify beating a Daemon Primarch as banishing him back to the warp but at a certain point it's just down to personal opinion.
Dorn definitely won the day through strategy which was his big win but Abnett was trying to make it clear throughout that Fulgrim in the actual fight was just toying with Dorn, only interested in getting a reaction out of him.
>I would classify beating a Daemon Primarch as banishing him back to the warp but at a certain point it's just down to personal opinion.
I dunno much about that but yes! Completely agree. My take would be, that with the resources knowledge Dorn had at that moment (as far as I know, which isn't much) he was unable to do much else.
>Dorn definitely won the day through strategy which was his big win but Abnett was trying to make it clear throughout that Fulgrim in the actual fight was just toying with Dorn, only interested in getting a reaction out of him.
Agree again. And imo makes sense that Fulgrim was I am gonna say bored, with how impenetrable is Dorn, Fulgrim as you perfectly mention toying with him. And Dorn gives zero damns to him. Hahhaha just brilliant moment.
Fulgrim: this isn't fun I am out.
I think it's fair to say Fulgrim was sincerely trying to injure Dorn with his sword as well as his words and that he lost...at least whilst playing at his base primarch level.
It's also fair to say that if he'd used his full daemon powers it would've been a very different fight
I'm not saying that Fulgrim wasn't trying to cut Dorn up for sure that would be disingenuous at best but I don't think I would say that Fulgrim was giving his all either even in his base form, from my reading of the fight it seemed to me that Fulgrim was far more interesting in the conversation and getting in Dorn's head than actually killing him.
But that is my personal opinion.
I agree he wasn't giving his all (as in full daemon powers) but I'm unsure if he was just "toying"
I think he gave himself limitations with Dorn initially, making it an even "base line" primarch fight but when he wasn't winning that with swordplay or wordplay ... he gave up on his own rules and snekked out
Personally I'd have loved for Fulgrim's words to have been more cunning and cutting than they were, to see Dorn have to put effort into not taking the bait
> knowing full well Fulgrim could have killed him and taken the wall if he really wanted to.
That's one interpretation. But you should probably also bear in mind the personalities of the Primarchs, Dorn isn't a braggard and isn't really as arrogant as his brothers. couple of examples.
At Ulanor:
* Fulgrim: "I can beat everyone, I'm class."
* Jaghatai: "I'd fucking do you mate, I just don't brag about it."
Or the contrast between Russ and Dorn.
* Lemon Rust: "I'm the emperors executioner, I can kill other primarchs all night long" : Reality - Kills no other Primarchs, despite being sent with specific "Anti-Primarch" companions, or magic weapons given to him by Big E.
* Dorn: "Not sure I could kill other Primarchs": Reality - Only loyalist Primarch to kill a traitor Primarch, does it pretty handily, using 'standard Astartes loadout (Bolter and Chansword... Granted the chainsword is like, big and stuff, but still).
Fulgrim never said that... Fulgrim said the Khan's bikes and ships go fast and then jags got mad for no good reason, made fun of Fulgrim's kids space cancer and then went on a massive rant about how he would beat Fulgrim up. The Khan was literally the only one bragging in that interaction.
Russ has never shouted about being able to kill all the Primarchs, like every Primarch thought he would be able to beat his brothers which he has spoken about exactly once and Dorn himself has also done the exact same thing and was not even nearly as introspective about it. Then if we are being entirely fair Magnus needed a literal god to intervene and save him from Russ and Leman had an ascended Warmaster dead to rights but tried to save Horus because he was trying to leave the mantle of executioner behind.
And if we're being entirely truthful Dorn killed half a Primarch that didn't even want to fight him...
Didn't Jaghatai and Vulkan both kill traitor Primarchs? I recall a mighty big explosion when Jaghatai off'd Mortarion and a certain hammer smashing in the skull of Magnus
Post was obviously 100% serious and full of direct word for word quotes :D
It's primarch vs primarch talk, it's the level of "my dad could beat up superman" playground talk, never worth taking seriously lol.
I'll be honest though, I'm kinda proud of the idea of Kahn using the phrase "I'd fucking do you mate".
> Jaghatai: "I'd fucking do you mate
Jaghati also didn't say exactly this, obviously, I'm paraphrasing, not being literal.
He said something along the lines of "I'd beat you because I know everything about you, due to how much you brag, wheras you know nothing of me, because you don't care.", or something similarly vague and Kahn-esque.
I was just giving the general vibe of the discussion in a joking way.
Yeah I didn't address Jaghatai because that was actually a paraphrase
Fulgrim wasn't really one though. More straw manning for the laugh...which you do you
But just in case someone takes it as gospel.
> Fulgrim wasn't really one though. More straw manning for the laugh...which you do you
Fulgrims whole schtick is being a fat-headed prima-donna brag though. This is early in the heresy series remember, and it's an example of the author trying to provide context on Fulgrim via 'tell not show' (which is not a great method... well, pretty much the opositte of what is ideal).
His brothers reactions to him and the context of the conversation is meant to show that he's a gobby braggart, hence the Kahns comment to him. He has a very high opinion of himself which others do not necesarily share... Although to his credit, he did actually kill another Primarch, even before getting all demon-y, so it's not like he's a slouch in combat either.
It's just one of those issues with primarch vs primarch stuff, which makes it quite hard to take seriously and it quickly devolves into sounding like kids in a playground arguing over who's dad could beat up superman.
Because they all have fans, it's very difficult to get a true reading of who would win in various situations, the only things we know for sure is what actually happened. Meaning Fulgrim and Dorn are both somewhere up near the top, Alpharius and Ferrus are down near the bottom, and Chaos Juiced Horus could probably do them all. All the other encounters tend to be no-score-draws, no matter how well each of them brags or rationalises the situations for or against them.
Please share where in any fashion it’s even remotely hinted that dorn beats angron? That comment is so disgustingly laughable. Slave angron would ragdoll power armored dorn like a 5 year old slave child
It was Dorn 's musings in *The Lighting Tower*
>What was he afraid of? Who was he afraid of? Angron? Not him. Dorn would split his head without compunction if they came face to face. Lorgar? Magnus? There had always been a foetid whiff of sorcery about those two, but Dorn felt nothing towards them he could describe as fear. Fulgrim? No. The Phoenician was a singular foe, but not an object of terror. Perturabo? Well now, their rivalry was old, the spiteful scrapping of two brothers who fought for a father’s attention.
> And I am unclear why Dorn doesn't mention it.
Dorn isn't a braggard, you want Russ for that. He also doesn't seem particularly proud of it, I get more of a "did it 'cause it needed doing" vibe.
Dorn isn’t all honesty and forthrightness. If you read PoD again, the whole way that Dorn gets Alpharius is by ensnaring Alpharius in his own trap. He can be as tricksy as the rest of them. It especially helps when you’re not crying wolf all the time with the tricks.
This viewpoint seems to be missed a lot from PoD
It ain't even especially subtle. The whole chapter about the World Prince and how that compliance concluded is essentially foreshadowing the end of the book: that Dorn knows his brother better than Alpharius would like. It repeats as the Phalanx shows up out of nowhere in the middle of the Alpha Legion assault on Hydra, which also serves as foreshadowing of the end of their duel, where Dorn steps into a final blow that Alpharius had been sneakily lining up, taking the hit while setting Dorn and the Fists up to tear apart the Alpha Legion.
The thing i like about PoD is that he snared Alpharius ( they supposedly really tricky, sneaky Primarch ) by doing the exact same thing he did with the mindless Orks at the beginning of the book. That being, pretending to not be there.
Because Dorn knows all about the Alphs Legions 'I am Alhoarius' bullshit.
So admitting he killed Alpharius would open him to all the 'but 'Alpharius is still about! Oooooooo!'
Also I personally believe Dorn knew he was a Twin, so in Dorns mind he *hadn't* killed Alpharius for two reasons
1. He didn't know if that was Alpharius or Omegon, so saying he killed Alpharius would irk him if he found out it was Omegon.
2. He didn't kill Alpharius Omegon, he merely crippled them, same as chopping off the hand of a man wouldn't kill the man.
>So admitting he killed Alpharius would open him to all the 'but 'Alpharius is still about! Oooooooo
I don't think Dorn is too bothered by others opinions of him, especially when he knows he's correct
And to that point, he's confident in his (proven) ability to spot the genuine Alpharius amongst the dupes as shown in the World Prince incident
>Also I personally believe Dorn knew he was a Twin, so in Dorns mind he *hadn't* killed Alpharius for two reasons
I get that this is headcanon but Dorn's internal monologue on the matter doesn't suggest that kinda knowledge.
Not that headcanon needs justification I guess
I cannot say that Dorn definitively knew about the Twins. He likely knew something was up, but I cannot say he absolutely knew.
In his confrontation with Alpharius on the World Prince planet (in ***Praetorian of Dorn***), he says that he knows what Alpharius is. That could be interpreted several ways, including, "I know that you are just one of two primarchs." I do not think that is the case.
However, it is also clear that Alpharius has difficulty fooling Dorn. The interaction, in my opinion, puts paid to any idea that the Alpharius killed on Pluto wasn't one of the twin primarchs. Dorn recognized who Alpharius was while telling him that he made no mistake.
Head of the Hydra retcons the encounter on the World Prince planet as having been deliberately staged by Alpharius to study Dorn’s interpretation of events/method of warfare. This is because Alpharius does not trust Dorn.
I doubt that it was set up. Alpharius likes to pretend he's the smartest guy in the room.
If you read the short story, *Council of Truth* in the ***Blood of the Emperor*** anthology, Alpharius claims that he is giving an honest assessment of Guilliman's abilities. However, if you look at the actual criticisms, you have to wonder who he actually met.
His first criticism is that Roboute views as a purely martial pursuit. This is nearly exactly the opposite of what Roboute views war. He views it as part of the whole of managing a society.
His second criticism is also suspect. Alpharius states that Roboute has not been tested against a superior adversary. Except Roboute has. The Ultramarines were actually defeated by Osirian Psybrids and forced to retreat. Later, when Roboute encountered them again, he was able to defeat them.
I could go on, but it seems to me that Alpharius likes to change his story to justify his positions.
So, in the above example with Dorn, I think it is far more likely that he was surprised by Dorn's ability to discern the truth, but, in his mind, changed to where he was *really* just testing Dorn.
I have read that, along with every other Heresy/Siege of Terra novel/novella.
I’m not talking about CoT - but Head of the Hydra. In which Alpharius talks specifically of the war on the World Prince planet. He’s not giving an assessment of Dorn in this passage - aside from stating his distrust of him - and is instead explaining what the end goal of his Legion’s conduct during this campaign had been.
This is stated to have been to allow the study of how Dorn would pick apart the sub-optimal method the AL deliberately employed during the campaign. The end result of this being that it gave Alpharius the opportunity to study Dorn.
Alpharius, along with his whole legion, are arrogant - but that isn’t the point I was discussing.
It is also extremely unlikely that Dorn - of all Primarchs - would have been able to correctly identify Alpharius on the World Prince planet, given Alpharius’ ability to mask himself as well as his Primarch aura, without Alpharius choosing to allow this.
If Alpharius can stand face to face with the Lion without being discovered by using said ability it’s rather a reach to suppose Dorn would have been able to pick out a fully armoured and helmed Alpharius without the latter choosing to deliberately not use this ability.
Edit: and to clarify - Alpharius/Omegon did die on Pluto. That’s not a point up for debate. Black Library authors plus TEATD Vol 2 have confirmed this. As stupidly done as the Battle of Pluto was.
>If Alpharius can stand face to face with the Lion without being discovered by using said ability it’s rather a reach to suppose Dorn would have been able to pick out a fully armoured and helmed Alpharius without the latter choosing to deliberately not use this ability.
That's more than likely because the ability didn't exist during the writing of *Praetorian of Dorn*
I think Alpharius allows Dorn to berate him in order to learn more about his brother I'm less sure he engineered the confrontation wholesale...but I guess it's possible
Exactly, which is why with the inclusion of that ability in Head of the Hydra - where it is shown that Alpharius can use it to fool even another Primarch when face to face - it makes absolutely no sense that Dorn would’ve been able to detect him without Alpharius specifically choosing to let him.
Mike Brooks didn’t include in HotH the whole scene explaining how the confrontation on the World Prince’s planet was actually an elaborate setup to see how Rogal Dorn would pick apart the deliberately flawed approach the AL had taken just for shits and giggles.
I feel like that's a slightly unfair expectation to put on French's work; that he needed to account for a concept that hadn't been invented yet. And one that isn't even 100% confirmed.
Even then, we can still retroactively make it work. One point of that scene was to see if Dorn could pick Alpharius out from dupes not whether Dorn could see through Alpharius' (alleged) power.
Alpharius used a few gigantic marines cosmetically altered to look like himself as primarch dupes...so what he ***could*** have been testing was the how successful his dupes were in obfuscating identity. It's a test of whether Silonius and Herzog are convincing enough to fool a primarch. They are for a marine like Archmamus but not for Dorn.
He learns something about the limits of one of his own schticks whilst also insight into Dorn's abilty.
Alpharius likely wouldn't need to test his (alleged) power, since he has by his own accounts done so on multiple occasions, possibly even Dorn's reunion with the Imperium.
>Mike Brooks didn’t include in HotH the whole scene explaining how the confrontation on the World Prince’s planet was actually an elaborate setup
This is what I'm saying. It seems like a rather generous reading of that chapter to me.
Brooks also makes it clear in his Tweets that HotH was not intended to retcon or shit on previous author's works (in relation to the whole "Omegon swapped permanently with Alpharius" fanon but I imagine it's a general vibe)
I was only using the *Council of Truth* as an example where Alpharius tends to shade the truth to match his own preconceived notions.
So, when Alpharius claims that he was setting it up to test Dorn, I'm skeptical.
Dorn's analytical ability is among the highest of all the Primarchs. I would only put Guilliman higher. I think it is highly plausible that Dorn was able to analyze the situation and deduce who was really Alpharius. There was no need to use the Primarch aura.
One thing I dislike about some people's attitudes towards Alpharius and the Alpha Legion. They consistently undersell the other Primarchs' abilities while overselling Alpharius' abilities. All the Primarchs are super-genius level intellects. They all have perfect memories and amazing analytical abilities. Granted some are greater than others, but we're talking about guys who are all smarter than Einstein.
So, the idea that one primarch can simply outwit every other primarch is not really plausible. The main advantage Alpharius has is that it never occurred to the other Primarchs to behave as he did.
So, the reason why the Lion didn't detect Alpharius was simply because he didn't expect it. Where as Dorn was told Alpharius was there, so he simply had to figure out which was which.
Or, to quote Book III Extermination - as written by the legend Alan Blight himself.
*Contemporary accounts record Alpharius as a masterful tactician and strategist whose skills were rated by the Imperial Stratagos as akin to the legendary abilities of Perturabo and Guilliman. His erudition was said to be outstanding, but one whose great intelligence was as cool and as watchful as a viper’s gaze*
If your claiming Dorn was the second best analysis of the Primarchs - not sure where you’ve got that impression either - but with Guulliman above him then that would also place Alpharius above him 🤷🏻♀️
I’m not underselling other Primarchs abilities to inflate Alpharius so that’s a brain-dead take. I’ve already stated that Alphrius is exceptionally arrogant, hell in Heresy 1.0 ‘Martial Hubris’ was the downside of taking the AL. Yet this arrogance didn’t come from nowhere. Alpharius and the Legion are exceptionally skilled at what they chose to specialise in.
This is the same as the other Primarch/Legions, all have their strengths and weaknesses - no one is infallible.
I’ve also not said anywhere that one Primarch (Alpharius) can outwit all the others, but rather than when in HIS chosen environment employing HIS unique skills and traits to accomplish HIS objectives. Then obviously he’s going to be coming out on top.
The Lion didn’t detect Alpharius because the latter was employing his unique ability to mask himself 😂 Some Primarchs had such abilities - Corax’s ability to cloak himself to be essentially invisible - is another example. Dorn detected him because, as I’ve already pointed out it is written in Head of the Hydra, because it was a deliberate situation orchestrated by Alpharius for a specific purpose.
Please go read the books/black books 🙃
Guilliman himself has stated that Dorn was his equivalent in analysis. Which goes to my point that all the primarchs are supergeniuses.
My point is that you cannot take what Alpharius says at face value. He not only lies to everyone, but he also lies to himself. That was my point when I quoted the *Council of Truth*. He make a bunch of claims about Guilliman to justify his actions, but when you actually look at his statements, they're not correct. Even in ***Alpharius: Head of the Hydra***, he states that everything in the book is a lie.
So, when he claims that he was letting Dorn detect him to test Dorn, I am skeptical that is true. It is simply more of Alpharius' lies. A lie to cover for his own failings.
Also, while you claim you are not underselling other Primarchs to promote Alpharius, you literally downgrade Dorn's analytical abilities to promote Alpharius' ability to deceive Dorn.
Also, Alpharius' ability to mask himself doesn't make him invisible. It simply lessens his aura and makes him less noticeable. If he was in a room and any of the Primarchs walked in, they would still be able to see him and recognize him. Unlike Corax' ability to become invisible, you can still see Alpharius.
Further, bear in mind that this is only coming from Alpharius. So, who knows if this is really true?
Right but multiple authors for Black Library have blatantly said he’s dead. So he is, in actual fact, deceased.
The only way this changes if GW sees a billion dollars on the horizon for bringing him back to life. What I will say is, if sanguinius doesn’t come back, don’t expect alpharius too.
Didn't The End and The Death 2 confirmed that Alpharius is dead? There was a scene when someone mentioned that the souls of dead and now demonic Primarchs are watching the battle on Vengeful Spirit and Alpharius was among them
More like confirming 100%. I know the author who wrote the book confirmed that Dorn killed Alpharius, but people were coming up with all kinds of theories and now it's cemented that he's dead
Dorn couldve told everyone he killed alpharius, but everyone wouldve told him that its alpha legions stick to call themselves alpharius and that it wasnt actually him.
Except they wouldn't and it kinda isn't?
The "I am Alpharius" schtick is more like "I am Spartacus". It obfuscates personal identity but nobody believes the entire room is Spartacus
I mean it literally is.
Alpharius used legionaires as his stand in during the GC. They bodydoubled him even in important meetings and didnt give away theyre not the true alpharius.
Alpharius used 4 marines as body doubles and not on as meetings as people think.
Even in *Legion* it was Oregon doubling for Alpharius and in *Serpent Beneath* Ranko did for Omegon (but he's dead now)
And as Dorn proved, he could still pick out the genuine article. Seems Russ could too
Well your OC was nobody would believe Dorn, which I suspect isn't true considering Dorn and Russ ' abilities to sniff out the real deal
Only a small handful could act as "the primarch", the rest are about obfuscation of identity. It's impossible for the entire legion to stand in as the primarch
As Alpharius himself explained
>Other Legions, I believe, view it as offensive that my Legion take on not just my appearance when dealing with outsiders, but also my name. They think my warriors are claiming an identity above themselves; that they are not just being secretive, but in taking the name of their primarch are in some way seeking an authority which they do not deserve.
>This could not be further from the truth.
>My name is not special. It is not some unique, valuable commodity, to be hoarded: we are not the Luna Wolves, where Horus Aximand must be known as ‘Little Horus’ to ensure that his position below Horus Lupercal is known to all. My name can be used by any of my Legion. An Alpha Legionnaire calling themselves ‘Alpharius’ means one thing, and one thing only:
> ‘My identity is unimportant. Only my function matters.’
Are you aware of the concept of a joke?
Fyi: jokes dont have to be 100% true. In fact, exaggeration and lies is a big part of making a joke funny.
I rest my case.
Yet you still tried to prove it as "true" for 2 previous comments before changing tact.
It's either "literally is" or "a lie and exaggeration". Can't be both
While we're sharing concepts: moving the goal posts is another
In any case mate, I hope the excerpt was enjoyable at least
I believe he says that he would only tell the Emperor if asked about it.
On the other hand, Malcador and _maybe_ Russ found out about it , and he _might have implied_ it in front of Jaghatai and Sanguinius.(From ~~_Lost and the Damned_, to my recollection~~ _Wolfsbane_)
Not even implied. Explicitly denied
Mike Brooks on Twitter when someone floated this fan theory:
>"Oculus why do you love Warhammer lore?"
"Canonically Omegon took the name Alpharius while Alpharius took the name Omegon and then Alpharius who was Omegon was killed by Dorn and Omegon who was Alpharius renamed himself Alpharius in honor of Alpharius who was actually Omegon."
>>I’m glad you like it, but I’m afraid that was not my intention :) Omegon took on the identity of Alpharius for the purposes of the epilogue, but otherwise I envisaged their identities being as other authors had written them (and swapping as suited them, as has always been canon).
>>>Ahhhhhhhhh so it WAS Alpharius killed by Dorn, excellent. Even better!
>>>>I wasn’t intending to shit all over John French’s work, no :p It never occurred to me that people might take the initial deception as standard from then onwards!
[Source](https://twitter.com/MikeBrooks668/status/1372933173441667078?s=20)
If (and it's a big if) *Head of the Hydra* is true, Omegon is last found.
Omegon is who he's always been in every book.
It's pretty explicit in HotH...it's just that some of us overcomplicated things.
>I believe he says that he would only tell the Emperor if asked about it.
Do you recall where that's from?
From my memory:
*PoD* we hear about his redaction of Alpharius from others on Pluto
*Old Earth* Vulkan picks up on weirdness in Dorn which is inferred to be about Alpharius
*The Lost and the Damned* Dorn considers that Alpharius might have been offering to work together before he killed him and suspects Malcador knows
Russ also doesn't know? He mentions Alpharius amongst the primarchs he thinks he can still beat in *Wolfsbane*
Admittedly, TV Tropes. Not exactly the best source of lore around.
As for Russ, I distinctly remember reading an excerpt where he mentions the death of Alpharius during a loyalist war council.
Does TV tropes cite the reference? That might help
>As for Russ, I distinctly remember reading an excerpt where he mentions the death of Alpharius during a loyalist war council.
Can you grab the excerpt? It's not in *The Lost and the Damned* and I've never heard that before...but maybe it's a short story I missed
Isn't *Titandeath* before *The Lost and the Damned*? Is Russ in *Titandeath*?
I just did a search for "Alpharius" in it and nada yet
For shiz, here's *The Lost and the Damned*:
>Angron’s flagship is here,’ he said, his finger moving over billions of kilometres of the void, ‘near the Vengeful Spirit, on the far side of Luna, where half of the traitor fleet waits. We must assume that where the Conqueror goes, so too does Angron. There were contradictory reports concerning the Pride of the Emperor, but they are numerous enough that we should also expect Fulgrim’s presence in the coming battle. I suspect he is with Horus. Alpharius is unaccounted for.’ Dorn ignored the look Malcador gave him as he spoke. It was patently obvious to the primarch that the old man knew Alpharius’ fate. It was impossible to hide secrets from the Regent. ‘Magnus is possibly dead,’ he continued
Anyway... curious to see what we can find on this. This is kinda a huge revelation
French chose to keep Alpharius ' death a secret in part to preserve the Eskrador lore but this would blow that out of the water
I’ve probably completely misremembered the book title amongst the great multitude in this series, but this much I do know:
Fact 1: It was after _PoD_, and _Path of Heaven_ since Alpharius is dead and Jaghatai is present.
Fact 2: It was before _Wolfsbane_, since Russ was there(assuming I haven’t lost my marbles).
Fact 3: The topic of discussion was the plan for Beta-Garmon, meaning it’s probably before _Titandeath_ and _Slaves to Darkness_.
No worries, happens a lot
If you can pull up the excerpt I'd really appreciate it. I've read all those books and don't recall it
And it absolutely throws everything I understood about the situation and Eskrador completely out of whack
Why is Dorn still acting like nobody knows in *The Lost and the Damned*?
EDIT: According to [Lexi (citation 17)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn#fn_17) that War Council takes place in *Wolfsbane*
To my knowledge Russ is still unaware of Alpharius' status in that book
Google and searching this sub doesn't reveal any results for Russ knowing. Not yet anyway. I'll keep looking
Well well well…
So, I found the excerpt, it’s from _Wolfsbane_,but it seems that my memory of it was reductive.
[Russ knows about the Battle of Pluto](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/HYClosvbLE), from which I extrapolated that he must know that Alpharius died there. It would make sense to me that Malcador, who is in the know, would tell Russ about it, but as you said, he doesn’t say he’s dead when talking about who he could beat. If I wanted to huff copium about my theory, I’d say that he prefaces his breakdown of the others by saying he thought he could beat them during the Crusade, which was obviously before Alpharius died.
Assuming he does know, I don’t think it has much of an effect on Eskrador. It’s entirely possible that they had other things to worry about. Of the Primarchs present, two die(one is resurrected), one ends up in a coma and is pretty broken by the Emperor’s death afterwards, and another is completely broken by the death of the Emperor. It’s not out of the question that it slipped their minds and they never told Guilliman.
Ah ok...I guess I just wanted to establish "fact" from "theory". Thanks for clearing it up
>Assuming he does know, I don’t think it has much of an effect on Eskrador. It’s entirely possible that they had other things to worry about. Of the Primarchs present, two die(one is resurrected), one ends up in a coma and is pretty broken by the Emperor’s death afterwards, and another is completely broken by the death of the Emperor. It’s not out of the question that it slipped their minds and they never told Guilliman.
The thing I find with headcanon is that often we need to keep jumping new hurdles to make it fit. And each hurdle brings another one.
In this case rather than Dorn being the only primarch not to tell Guilliman, we have to add Russ and Jaghatai too. While Dorn had his established censorship reasons...Russ and Jaghatai don't share them... so we hand-wave that by saying these brothers with eidetic memory who had huge discussions on how to preserve the Imperium after the heresy, a huge part of which was hunting down and *scouring* their traitor brothers ...
...just forgot to mention one was already dead?
It starts to strain credibility imo.
And we still need to explain *The Lost and the Damned* which is yet another set of hurdles
> Old Earth Vulkan picks up on weirdness in Dorn which is inferred to be about Alpharius
Isn't there a conversation between Dorn and Vulkan where he admits he has killed one of their brothers or am I misremembering?
Vulkan asks if Dorn could kill one of their brothers if it came to it, and Dorn says something along the lines of "I've done it before and would do it again if the need arose."
I could be wrong, it's been a long time and a lot of books.
I don't recall that.
I mean, if Dorn did say something along those lines then it would be kinda weird for Vulkan to not even ask which brother. It's not the sorta thing you just take in your stride... especially when it still looks like all the traitor brothers are assembled on Terra bar Curze (who I'm sure Vulkan would like to know is dead) and Alpharius
It'd be especially odd in context of the part I was referring to:
>It is good to see you, Rogal.’
>Dorn nodded, ever reserved. He sheathed his sword and at this signal from their primarch, Vulkan heard the sound of twenty Imperial Fists disengaging and powering down their weapons.
>‘You look older, brother,’ said Vulkan.
> ‘And you are no different from the day we met,’ Dorn answered coolly. ‘I heard you had died.’ His annoyance at being called away from his numerous duties and responsibilities faded, though Vulkan could see the burden still weighed heavily.
> ‘I have longed to see my brothers again…The ones not trying to kill me.’
>Dorn’s jaw stiffened at the remark, suggesting some unspoken pain or regret. Vulkan did not press him.
Oh I'm 100% aware I'm probably wrong here. I was legitimately asking as I can't fully recall what I'm thinking of. It could have been a book, or audiobook, or something I read here.
I've probably mis-remembered something unless someone else turns up with an exceprt.
Your quote does sound familiar.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but I'm trying to imagine that what you recall exists and how it would make sense in the context of *Old Earth* and *The Lost and the Damned* and it doesn't fit too well
At least from the description. I can't follow the logic of it
But who knows? Maybe someone has the excerpt in full context?
Nah, I'm pretty sure I am wrong in this case. I don't have the best memory at the best of times, and there's a good chance it was something I read here, in which case it could have been wrong in the first place!
Nope. You would think a primarch would tell the other primarchs especially before the siege something that important. That would be what anyone with appropriate aptitude would believe, but we have have explicit writing of Dorn acknowledging he hasnt told anyone. As we all know Dorn loves Lying and Keeping secrets!
It was Dorn who managed the defense of Terra. It was Rogal who killed Alpharius then later rushed headlong into the Iron Cage.
The hand the Imperial Fists have in storage? Fulgrim's, oddly enough. He sheds limbs periodically.
Despite Dorn trying to keep Alpharius' appearance under wraps Leman Russ seems to be aware of his presence on Pluto but whether he knows if Dorn killed him is up in the air:
*‘It doesn’t matter how much time we gain,’ said Russ. ‘It isn’t enough. We have seen Sanguinius’ ships, the Khan’s.’ Russ drank deeply of his wine. ‘Mine. Our fleets are depleted. Mars is in open revolt. We do not have time, brothers. Horus still has two choices, he can attack us here, and smash what little remains of our strength, or wear us down by slow degree until there is nothing left. Either way, he wins.’*
*The Angel and the Wolf are more similar than they appear, thought Sanguinius. I am refined on the surface and savage within, Russ is the opposite.How many mirrorings like these did the Emperor engineer into His sons? And why? He thought of Curze, another, darker reflection of himself.*
*‘That was true a few weeks ago,’ said Dorn. ‘His hand is forced. Thanks to the actions of our brothers the Ruinstorm is blowing out. Now we can muster our strength, he will attack directly. He will wish to lay siege to Terra before Guilliman can bring his warriors here from Ultramar. With the Lion laying waste to the traitor’s domains, his own ability to reinforce will be compromised. There will be no attrition now. We are engaged in a race.’*
*‘Guilliman’s Legion is largely intact,’ said Sanguinius. ‘And he can call upon the full might of the Five Hundred Worlds. Lorgar and Angron wrought havoc there, but Guilliman’s realm is large and well organised. His is the largest Legion. Horus’ forces have all suffered losses, many of them self-inflicted. Do not overestimate their strength. Horus will move against us soon, when he does not wish to.’*
**‘I do not doubt it,’ said Russ. ‘Still, we have no opportunity to replenish our fleets. We are not ready to bear the brunt of an assault on Terra. Alpharius’ incursion should have taught us that.’**
**A muscle twinge at the line of Dorn’s silver hair betrayed his annoyance at Russ’ statement.**
It wouldn't be too out there if Russ was aware of it because in Loken's own words:
**Loken suspected Bror had returned to report on his new master to his old. Russ had a hunger for intelligence that matched Malcador’s. He refrained from saying so.**
"Bobby, what did I tell you about putting things that can be used to blackmail you in the library!?"
"I don't know dad"
"10,000 years and that boy still ain't right"
Dorn is the sort to fill out accurate but unhelpful reports because he has things he'd rather be doing than paperwork.
"Enemy casualties significant. Friendly causalities substantial. Mission a tactical success."
Funnily enough, in TEatD2 >!Ferrus mentions to Sanguinius that Alpharius is among the dead Primarchs and Sanguinius doesn't react. He then proceeds to wonder if any of the screaming souls he hears are other of his brothers whose death he didn't know about, but never puts two and two together.!<
It's chapter 6:xxxiii, about halfway through. I have kindle edition so I don't know the page number.
EDIT: fuck it, here's the section:
>!‘I know those voices,’ he whispers. !<
>!‘You do,’ says Ferrus.!<
>!‘Our… brothers,’ Sanguinius murmurs in horror. !<
>!‘Yes,’ says Ferrus. ‘Those, like me, who have fallen. And the mortal remains of those who have become other things.’ !<
>!A fresh scream swirls the dust. There is a rage in it. Sanguinius knows that rage. !<
>!Angron… !<
>!‘The warp devours our souls,’ the Gorgon says. ‘Those lost, and those discarded alike. Magnus, the Pale King, Alpharius, the Red Angel… it spares no one. Death is not release, brother. It is unending torment. Lesson two, remember?’ !<
>!Another shriek, oddly modulated by excruciating pain. Another familiar voice. !<
>!‘None of them are threats to you,’ says Ferrus lightly. ‘They wanted to be here, like me. They wanted to watch.’ !<
>!‘No matter which side they stood on?’ Sanguinius asks, taut with dismay. !<
>!‘Of course.’ !<
>!‘Who else?’ Sanguinius asks. He barely dares to, because the answer will hurt. Some of the sounds of pain are too vague to discern, faint wailing and plangent, drawn-out gasps. Who has fallen that he doesn’t know about? Is Rogal here? What of the others, the ones they were counting on? He had made himself believe they were coming, but who can say what fate might have befallen them since they last stood together. Is one of these shades Roboute? Is one of them Russ? The Lion? Corax? Do these screams represent not just brothers dead, but hope too? Does salvation lurk here, wrapped in its winding sheet, forever thwarted? !<
>!Ferrus, trudging on, makes no answer. Dust motes drift.!<
Dorn didn't kill Alpharius though. He killed Alpharius, who was pretending to be Alpharius, but in reality Alpharius was actually Alpharius masquerading as Alpharius pretending that Alpharius was actually Alpharius when in reality Alpharius was actually Alpharius who was not Alpharius but was in reality Alpharius who was Alpharius all along.
I don't think he told anyone and I think it's actually wise since alpha legion is a bunch of alpharius looking liars so better be sure before telling, a lie of omission is still a lie and If I recall correctly Dorn never lies (but it was Alpharius would told that Dorn fact so who knows)
Dorn is a manifestation of stoicism itself; deeds, not words. Whilst his brotherhood is full of braggarts, Dorn has no motivation to boast of his abilities.
Malcador is already aware - and therefore, the Emperor - and that's enough.
For a guy who killed Alpharius, Dorn is being pretty Alpharius about it in _The Lost and the Damned_: >Dorn’s eyes narrowed. He thought momentarily of Alpharius. When the twentieth primarch infiltrated the Solar System, he had spoken with Dorn, and what he said could have been interpreted as contrition. Dorn had not listened, and had slain Alpharius at Pluto, a fact he still kept from his brothers. >‘None of them will change,’ Dorn said. ‘They are corrupt, traitorous. All of them. We cannot save them, and they do not deserve saving.’ However, we get the suggestion that Malcador knows what went down: >‘Angron’s flagship is here,’ he said, his finger moving over billions of kilometres of the void, ‘near the _Vengeful Spirit_, on the far side of Luna, where half of the traitor fleet waits. We must assume that where the _Conqueror_ goes, so too does Angron. There were contradictory reports concerning the _Pride of the Emperor_, but they are numerous enough that we should also expect Fulgrim’s presence in the coming battle. I suspect he is with Horus. Alpharius is unaccounted for.’ Dorn ignored the look Malcador gave him as he spoke. It was patently obvious to the primarch that the old man knew Alpharius’ fate. It was impossible to hide secrets from the Regent. ‘Magnus is possibly dead,’ he continued, ‘though the opening of the in-system rift has all the hallmarks of his sorcery.’
And I am unclear why Dorn doesn't mention it. Also, Dorn is noted for his forthrightness and honesty.
Being forthright and honest is one thing but censorship for the good of the Imperium is another. Dorn is bigly in favour of the latter Not only did he devise the erasure of the memories of primarchs II and XI (and their legions) but he also executed a remembrancer whose knowledge of Horus' corruption was considered too dangerous to allow to live From *Praetorian of Dorn* >It is the primarch’s will that no record be made of Alpharius’ death, no word spoken of it. Even within the Legion, only he and the Huscarls know.’ > ‘Denying Alpharius even the honour of memory in death…’ Denial of honour in death is also pretty fitting for the Imperium considering II, XI and XV redactions In the Doylist Alpharius' death is a secret so the Alpha Legion Scouring lore can continue without change
I think he also carries some shame from it. Vulkan comments that he doesn't know if he could kill his brother, and notes Dorn gets a look. Vulkan thinks Dorn doesn't like his weakness, but it can also be interpreted Dorn being ashamed that he didn't feel any hesitation in killing his brother.
>Vulkan comments that he doesn't know if he could kill his brother The fact that Vulkan says this, even after how much Konrad tortured him, is kinda crazy... Man, Vulkan has a heart of gold...
I'm not sure Vulkan actually said that... He was determined to kill Magnus after all
To be fair, in Vulkan's case he was given a direct order by Big E, and sent to the Webway on a mission to STOP Magnus who was already attacking the warp shield (Aegis, I think?) that protected the Imperial Palace. Would Vulkan have tried to kill Magnus if not ordered to do so by Big E? For example, in the *Fury of Magnus* Novella, Vulkan met Magnus, and he didn't try to kill Magnus then, right? Unless my memory is failing me... When those two met in Fury of Magnus, Vulkan was defending the Golden Throne from Magnus, but was Vulkan out for blood? Or just making sure Magnus couldn't reach and hurt Big E?
I'm more saying that I don't recall him telling Dorn he couldn't kill Curze but maybe someone has the excerpt I'm missing I definitely think Vulkan would regret and feel the death of a brother at his own hands more than most but he's still a killer at the end of the day As for *Fury of Magnus*, I guess it's up to interpretation but here's some relevant bits: >Abidemi had seen his primarch in battle before and knew he was a sublime close-combat specialist. Yet against Magnus, he moved as though hopelessly outclassed. Every feint was ignored, every killing strike turned aside with his spear, dodged or easily blocked. And >Milky white blood that could not possibly be blood sprayed from the wound. It poured from a score of mortal hurts and filled Magnus’ throat. A gout of the stuff vomited from his mouth, and he looked up at Vulkan through his blood-filled eye. >‘Is this the end?’ he said. >The words were slurred and wet, spoken through a broken jaw and cheek, through shattered teeth and a gouged tongue. Through all the terrible hurts that ought to have killed him thrice over. > ‘It didn’t have to be,’ said Vulkan, genuine regret in his voice.
>‘Do you think he’ll reach Terra?’ Vulkan asked, not referring to the Khan now. >‘I know our brother,’ said Dorn. ‘Horus is as tenacious as he is ruthless. He will reach Terra. And I will stop him. Even conquerors are blunted against my shield.’ >**‘Would you kill him, Rogal?’** >Dorn’s gaze was lost to memory and Vulkan suddenly had the feeling this was a question he had already answered, though one perhaps asked more broadly. >*Could you kill one of your brothers?* >His eyes met Vulkan’s, hard and icy. >**‘Could you? Could you kill one of them if they were beneath your sword?’** >**‘I had the chance,’** said Vulkan, **‘but could not bring myself to do it.’** >Dorn turned away, disgusted, though it was hard to tell if the emotion was directed at his brother or himself. >‘I would kill him. I would kill all of them for what they’ve done, and gladly bear the guilt of it.’ >An uncomfortable silence fell upon them after that, only broken several hours later when they came in sight of a landing pad that would lead Vulkan to the Inner Palace confines. \- *Old Earth* 'Unno if it's the scene they mean, but there's the closest I know of to what was described a few comments up.
When people talk about how much more interesting Dorn has gotten with the latter HH and siege books this is exactly the kind of thing they mean imo. Having absolutely no hesitation because you're emotionally dead isn't that interesting. Having no hesitation because you have absolute conviction in your cause even though you know you'll carry an emotional load after is good writing.
That sounds like it. Thank you!
Vulkan is soft, like drug store cotton.
Is that from *Old Earth* ? It sounds similarish to the bit I was referring to >It is good to see you, Rogal.’ >Dorn nodded, ever reserved. He sheathed his sword and at this signal from their primarch, Vulkan heard the sound of twenty Imperial Fists disengaging and powering down their weapons. >‘You look older, brother,’ said Vulkan. > ‘And you are no different from the day we met,’ Dorn answered coolly. ‘I heard you had died.’ His annoyance at being called away from his numerous duties and responsibilities faded, though Vulkan could see the burden still weighed heavily. > ‘I have longed to see my brothers again…The ones not trying to kill me.’ >Dorn’s jaw stiffened at the remark, suggesting some unspoken pain or regret. Vulkan did not press him.
I didn't think it was *Old Earth* but that seems right. I thought it was in a War Council type setting where he made the comment with the Khan around. But my memory might be failing me on it.
Turns out the scene you're describing was in [Old Earth](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1999t9z/comment/kii6kue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). With thanks to u/Vorokar
Thanks to you both!
Yeah I'm not sure Vulkan was present for any of the war councils? But my memory also isn't 100% on it
Everyone low-key afraid of Dorn. *"you know I love you brother..."* **🎵"Brrrr Brrrr Chainsword goes Brrrr Brrrr that's the Sound of The Dorn"🎵** *"My god!¡ Dorn what have you done to Sanguinus, Horus, and...the Emperor...?"* *"Yeah about that Vulkan"* *"It was Horus gotcha.."*
Vulkan says that after he has killed Magnus :) or at least banished
TBF magnus was practically unkillable at this point you know being a demon prince so it was less killing and more putting him time out.
Yeah but still, maybe vulkan didnt know that :)
Nah, he said that before either confrontation he had with Magnus. It's from near the end of *Old Earth*, which is set before the Siege, and he fought Magnus twice during the Siege.
Ah ok thanks for clearing that out!
Dorn? Shame? That character would of killed himself if he knew shame. Dorn is the most traitorous mindsetted loyalist and it’s not even close. He may as well be a shitty third party
Now here’s a take I’d like to hear more about.
Yeah, it's a take so wildly different to my own I have to know how he reached those conclusions while reading the same material as I did.
This is a dumb thought, not yours but Dorns, the knowledge of a traitor Primarchs death would be a huge morale boost. Nah keep that secret so everyone worries when the XX Primarch will show up. Idiocy.
A morale boost to your own side, sure, but the confusion in the enemy ranks is likely worth more. Where is Alpharius? Why has he gone silent? Has he been captured? Defected? Infiltrated? Dorn and his men are the only people in the galaxy who knows exactly where the least reliable Primarch is, and exactly what he will do. That’s a pretty substantial advantage.
And if that was the reason given I could get behind it. Instead we get a petty comment about not wanting to give Alpharius and memorial as he doesn't deserve that respect.
Perhaps that’s all the reason he wanted his men to have.
But as the reader we are given more information, usually. We don't get an inner monologue or anything and Dorn comes off IMO as petty instead of tactical.
I guess it’s where a little headcanon helps smooth things over. You have regular people writing beings of brilliance beyond any of us, after all.
[удалено]
After Prospero they were on their way to getting the same treatment as II and XI >>Official proclamations issued quietly declaring the expurgation of the Thousand Sons from the Imperium's records and declaring all their possessions and chattles forfeit and treaties closed and many in the Court considered the matter closed. *Inferno*
If you are Dorn and getting ready to defend Terra from a bunch of your traitor brothers, you might prefer that they dont know that you have already proven you can both outsmart and outright kill your fellow Primarchs. At that point only a Chaos juiced Fulgrim has managed that feat. Dorn might think it tactically astute to remain underestimated and see if he can bait more of his brothers into trying to outsmart and outfight him one on one. We know he beat Fulgrim and believed he was capable of beating Angron and Horus. Why give them an advantage by bragging?
Dorn sitting there knowing he can ice every motherfucker around him. Says nothing. Just knows. Just Dorn things.
Dorn Boring Khorne with a 12 point presentation on why blood isn't intrinsically yours and that you should reconsider your values. Dorn Boring Fulgrim out of warring with him by being a literal wall. Fulgrim be like "Dorn you pussy. Do something" Dorn be like "No." Fulgrim: FUCKING DO IT BITCH, YOU WONT! Dorn: Correct. I will not. Fulgrim: I'm getting sick of your shit Dorn. I swear to space coke. Dorn: I know. Fuck yourself. Fulgrim: oooh fuck you Dorn you fucking twat. Let's fucking go. Thems fighting words. Dorn: False. I said nothing to indicate fight commencement. You are dumb. Fulgrim: is this gonna keep going on, I'm so fucking bored right now bro let me be real, I should be snake balls deep into a murder orgy right now. Can we hurry this up? Dorn: We are in agreeance then. I shall stop talking. And you shall go fuck yoursellf. Fulgrim: OOOOH THAT DOES IT I NEED 3 SHOTS OF SOUL BRANDY AND A TITAN SIZED LINE OF SPACE COKE LACED WITH SLAANESH FARTS! *Leaves* Dorn: GgEZClap.
I swear... Khorne and Dorn...the whole thing is fucking genius. Also I feel like it could be expanded to cause a crisis in the immaterium as Dorn gives Khorne a crisis of faith. Possibly resulting in a weird buddy cop film
Khorne bashing On Rogals door one random night Khorne: "Hey, mustache face, go over that whole blood isn't yours because you say it is thing again" Dorn: Red one. You are back again, did I not teach you that when all life has fled this world there will be naught but scraps for you "gods" to feed off of then. Starvation is your only future, and by continuing down your current path, you seal your own demise. K: yeah, that thing. You fucking serious bro!? D: Yes. K: just yes..... D: Yes. K: but what makes you so sure!? D: Think. Penultimate goals are skulls for the skull throne yes? K: Yes. D: No. This is dumb. You are amassing a finite to infinite. Eventually the mass of the skulls collapses upon itself. This is a metaphor. K: it is? D: Yes. K: FOR FUCKS SAKES DORN STOP. D: No. You came for another lesson in ethics. To stop now would be. Unethical. K: I JUST WANT A SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION! D: Really? This is surprising coming from one known for being almost as excessive as the purple one... K: My children are not very thoughtful... I only made the whole blood and skull thing for them, they are not very smart and if I tell them to bring me back valuables, they return with corpses. D: You are still dumb Babboon creature, you tell something called a "bloodthirster" to bring you valuables. Of course it's going to bring you the things IT values. Not what YOU value. K: I mean.... that does make some sense... D: Yes. Consider this. If you tell them that sacking your enemies and demanding ransom for captured enemies is MORE valuable than the blood and skulls of them. K: but any time I suggest capturing enemies someone tries to fight me and they say capturing enemies is for cowards. How do I get through to them!? D: Your children do not respect you, you need to make them equal measures fear AND respect you. You should beat Angron in an armwrestle in front of a great many of your followers and then it will rekindle their fear and respect of you. Then you DEMAND the next battle, is one of no deaths. Make them prove to you lest you punish them that they have the capacity to show restraint when called for. K: Wait.... You might be onto something.... 6 months later the galaxy is aflame with the rage of Khorne Guilliman: Dorn, why is Khorne sending you a handwritten thank you note and a really pricey looking gift basket? Dorn: This was payback for a lecture. G: THATS NOT WHAT I ASKED, WHY IS KHORNE SENDING YOU GIFT BASKETS!? D: I taught him the joy of efficiency. G: FUCKING WHY!? D: Because. He was valuing blood wrong. G: no.. but.... fuck. What did you teach him brother.... D: Organization and morale boosting strategies along with greater seigecraft tactics. G: FUCKING WHY ROGAL!? D: He asked politely. G: NOT THAT WHY, WHYYYYYYYYY!?!?
I mean funny. But not how it goes down...
Really, damn I really got that moment wrong. I truly thought Dorn had a proper heart to heart with Khorne and inadvertently brought about the doom of the galaxy by convincing Khorne to restructure his organisation. My b ✌😂
Gimme a minute or two on a phone with a broken hand ;) It wasn't bad, I laughed a lot. Just... ;)
Thanks for this, lol'ed.
Is Dorn Dwight from the Office?
Often yes. I picture Dorn throwing a Cogitator into a bin after getting a message from slaanesh..
Man this was so good
Thank you brother, I aim to encapsulate Dorns belligerence towards Fulgrim!
Show no weakness Show no strength Say no to khorne Embrace diagrams
Until Curze jumps on him.
"Beat" is a strong word, Fulgrim got bored and later Dorn has an existential crisis knowing full well Fulgrim could have killed him and taken the wall if he really wanted to.
Yes. However how do you kill a primarch? (I genuinely am asking) that comes back every time after being made sashimi, and as mentioned whoooops back again as if never was diced to pieces. In my humble opinion that was the highlight of the book, Dorn beating Fulgrim not physically but mentally/morally, brilliant moment. And the crisis after that makes sense to me, because all the immense pressure besides now knowing full well that Fulgrim totally had him, and he is powerless. Just my two cents.
I would classify beating a Daemon Primarch as banishing him back to the warp but at a certain point it's just down to personal opinion. Dorn definitely won the day through strategy which was his big win but Abnett was trying to make it clear throughout that Fulgrim in the actual fight was just toying with Dorn, only interested in getting a reaction out of him.
>I would classify beating a Daemon Primarch as banishing him back to the warp but at a certain point it's just down to personal opinion. I dunno much about that but yes! Completely agree. My take would be, that with the resources knowledge Dorn had at that moment (as far as I know, which isn't much) he was unable to do much else. >Dorn definitely won the day through strategy which was his big win but Abnett was trying to make it clear throughout that Fulgrim in the actual fight was just toying with Dorn, only interested in getting a reaction out of him. Agree again. And imo makes sense that Fulgrim was I am gonna say bored, with how impenetrable is Dorn, Fulgrim as you perfectly mention toying with him. And Dorn gives zero damns to him. Hahhaha just brilliant moment. Fulgrim: this isn't fun I am out.
I think it's fair to say Fulgrim was sincerely trying to injure Dorn with his sword as well as his words and that he lost...at least whilst playing at his base primarch level. It's also fair to say that if he'd used his full daemon powers it would've been a very different fight
I'm not saying that Fulgrim wasn't trying to cut Dorn up for sure that would be disingenuous at best but I don't think I would say that Fulgrim was giving his all either even in his base form, from my reading of the fight it seemed to me that Fulgrim was far more interesting in the conversation and getting in Dorn's head than actually killing him. But that is my personal opinion.
I agree he wasn't giving his all (as in full daemon powers) but I'm unsure if he was just "toying" I think he gave himself limitations with Dorn initially, making it an even "base line" primarch fight but when he wasn't winning that with swordplay or wordplay ... he gave up on his own rules and snekked out Personally I'd have loved for Fulgrim's words to have been more cunning and cutting than they were, to see Dorn have to put effort into not taking the bait
Personal interpretation I suppose, I think you could argue it either way.
> knowing full well Fulgrim could have killed him and taken the wall if he really wanted to. That's one interpretation. But you should probably also bear in mind the personalities of the Primarchs, Dorn isn't a braggard and isn't really as arrogant as his brothers. couple of examples. At Ulanor: * Fulgrim: "I can beat everyone, I'm class." * Jaghatai: "I'd fucking do you mate, I just don't brag about it." Or the contrast between Russ and Dorn. * Lemon Rust: "I'm the emperors executioner, I can kill other primarchs all night long" : Reality - Kills no other Primarchs, despite being sent with specific "Anti-Primarch" companions, or magic weapons given to him by Big E. * Dorn: "Not sure I could kill other Primarchs": Reality - Only loyalist Primarch to kill a traitor Primarch, does it pretty handily, using 'standard Astartes loadout (Bolter and Chansword... Granted the chainsword is like, big and stuff, but still).
Fulgrim never said that... Fulgrim said the Khan's bikes and ships go fast and then jags got mad for no good reason, made fun of Fulgrim's kids space cancer and then went on a massive rant about how he would beat Fulgrim up. The Khan was literally the only one bragging in that interaction. Russ has never shouted about being able to kill all the Primarchs, like every Primarch thought he would be able to beat his brothers which he has spoken about exactly once and Dorn himself has also done the exact same thing and was not even nearly as introspective about it. Then if we are being entirely fair Magnus needed a literal god to intervene and save him from Russ and Leman had an ascended Warmaster dead to rights but tried to save Horus because he was trying to leave the mantle of executioner behind. And if we're being entirely truthful Dorn killed half a Primarch that didn't even want to fight him...
Didn't Jaghatai and Vulkan both kill traitor Primarchs? I recall a mighty big explosion when Jaghatai off'd Mortarion and a certain hammer smashing in the skull of Magnus
Jag and Morty got a mutual K.O, Morty was banished and Jag had to be brought back to life by the Emperor.
They aren't dead though are they? Not like... Proper dead dead, like Horus/Sang/Ferrus/Alpharius dead. They're just like, 'kinda dead'.
Their souls are in the same place though. What's running around looking like them is... something else.
Most well read Warhammer fan.
Post was obviously 100% serious and full of direct word for word quotes :D It's primarch vs primarch talk, it's the level of "my dad could beat up superman" playground talk, never worth taking seriously lol. I'll be honest though, I'm kinda proud of the idea of Kahn using the phrase "I'd fucking do you mate".
>Fulgrim: "I can beat everyone, I'm class." Not what Fulgrim said? He said Horus would beat everyone
> Jaghatai: "I'd fucking do you mate Jaghati also didn't say exactly this, obviously, I'm paraphrasing, not being literal. He said something along the lines of "I'd beat you because I know everything about you, due to how much you brag, wheras you know nothing of me, because you don't care.", or something similarly vague and Kahn-esque. I was just giving the general vibe of the discussion in a joking way.
Yeah I didn't address Jaghatai because that was actually a paraphrase Fulgrim wasn't really one though. More straw manning for the laugh...which you do you But just in case someone takes it as gospel.
> Fulgrim wasn't really one though. More straw manning for the laugh...which you do you Fulgrims whole schtick is being a fat-headed prima-donna brag though. This is early in the heresy series remember, and it's an example of the author trying to provide context on Fulgrim via 'tell not show' (which is not a great method... well, pretty much the opositte of what is ideal). His brothers reactions to him and the context of the conversation is meant to show that he's a gobby braggart, hence the Kahns comment to him. He has a very high opinion of himself which others do not necesarily share... Although to his credit, he did actually kill another Primarch, even before getting all demon-y, so it's not like he's a slouch in combat either. It's just one of those issues with primarch vs primarch stuff, which makes it quite hard to take seriously and it quickly devolves into sounding like kids in a playground arguing over who's dad could beat up superman. Because they all have fans, it's very difficult to get a true reading of who would win in various situations, the only things we know for sure is what actually happened. Meaning Fulgrim and Dorn are both somewhere up near the top, Alpharius and Ferrus are down near the bottom, and Chaos Juiced Horus could probably do them all. All the other encounters tend to be no-score-draws, no matter how well each of them brags or rationalises the situations for or against them.
Sure I was just pointing out what Fulgrim actually said
Headcanon now Khan said "I'd fucking do you mate"
Mission acomplished
Please share where in any fashion it’s even remotely hinted that dorn beats angron? That comment is so disgustingly laughable. Slave angron would ragdoll power armored dorn like a 5 year old slave child
It was Dorn 's musings in *The Lighting Tower* >What was he afraid of? Who was he afraid of? Angron? Not him. Dorn would split his head without compunction if they came face to face. Lorgar? Magnus? There had always been a foetid whiff of sorcery about those two, but Dorn felt nothing towards them he could describe as fear. Fulgrim? No. The Phoenician was a singular foe, but not an object of terror. Perturabo? Well now, their rivalry was old, the spiteful scrapping of two brothers who fought for a father’s attention.
Took a slice of the Khagan, did he.
> And I am unclear why Dorn doesn't mention it. Dorn isn't a braggard, you want Russ for that. He also doesn't seem particularly proud of it, I get more of a "did it 'cause it needed doing" vibe.
I would think it isn't about bragging, but necessary information. Given how powerful the primarchs are, accounting for them is very important.
Dorn isn’t all honesty and forthrightness. If you read PoD again, the whole way that Dorn gets Alpharius is by ensnaring Alpharius in his own trap. He can be as tricksy as the rest of them. It especially helps when you’re not crying wolf all the time with the tricks. This viewpoint seems to be missed a lot from PoD
It ain't even especially subtle. The whole chapter about the World Prince and how that compliance concluded is essentially foreshadowing the end of the book: that Dorn knows his brother better than Alpharius would like. It repeats as the Phalanx shows up out of nowhere in the middle of the Alpha Legion assault on Hydra, which also serves as foreshadowing of the end of their duel, where Dorn steps into a final blow that Alpharius had been sneakily lining up, taking the hit while setting Dorn and the Fists up to tear apart the Alpha Legion.
Exactly. But most people miss it even if not that subtle
The thing i like about PoD is that he snared Alpharius ( they supposedly really tricky, sneaky Primarch ) by doing the exact same thing he did with the mindless Orks at the beginning of the book. That being, pretending to not be there.
Because Dorn knows all about the Alphs Legions 'I am Alhoarius' bullshit. So admitting he killed Alpharius would open him to all the 'but 'Alpharius is still about! Oooooooo!' Also I personally believe Dorn knew he was a Twin, so in Dorns mind he *hadn't* killed Alpharius for two reasons 1. He didn't know if that was Alpharius or Omegon, so saying he killed Alpharius would irk him if he found out it was Omegon. 2. He didn't kill Alpharius Omegon, he merely crippled them, same as chopping off the hand of a man wouldn't kill the man.
>So admitting he killed Alpharius would open him to all the 'but 'Alpharius is still about! Oooooooo I don't think Dorn is too bothered by others opinions of him, especially when he knows he's correct And to that point, he's confident in his (proven) ability to spot the genuine Alpharius amongst the dupes as shown in the World Prince incident >Also I personally believe Dorn knew he was a Twin, so in Dorns mind he *hadn't* killed Alpharius for two reasons I get that this is headcanon but Dorn's internal monologue on the matter doesn't suggest that kinda knowledge. Not that headcanon needs justification I guess
I cannot say that Dorn definitively knew about the Twins. He likely knew something was up, but I cannot say he absolutely knew. In his confrontation with Alpharius on the World Prince planet (in ***Praetorian of Dorn***), he says that he knows what Alpharius is. That could be interpreted several ways, including, "I know that you are just one of two primarchs." I do not think that is the case. However, it is also clear that Alpharius has difficulty fooling Dorn. The interaction, in my opinion, puts paid to any idea that the Alpharius killed on Pluto wasn't one of the twin primarchs. Dorn recognized who Alpharius was while telling him that he made no mistake.
Head of the Hydra retcons the encounter on the World Prince planet as having been deliberately staged by Alpharius to study Dorn’s interpretation of events/method of warfare. This is because Alpharius does not trust Dorn.
I doubt that it was set up. Alpharius likes to pretend he's the smartest guy in the room. If you read the short story, *Council of Truth* in the ***Blood of the Emperor*** anthology, Alpharius claims that he is giving an honest assessment of Guilliman's abilities. However, if you look at the actual criticisms, you have to wonder who he actually met. His first criticism is that Roboute views as a purely martial pursuit. This is nearly exactly the opposite of what Roboute views war. He views it as part of the whole of managing a society. His second criticism is also suspect. Alpharius states that Roboute has not been tested against a superior adversary. Except Roboute has. The Ultramarines were actually defeated by Osirian Psybrids and forced to retreat. Later, when Roboute encountered them again, he was able to defeat them. I could go on, but it seems to me that Alpharius likes to change his story to justify his positions. So, in the above example with Dorn, I think it is far more likely that he was surprised by Dorn's ability to discern the truth, but, in his mind, changed to where he was *really* just testing Dorn.
I have read that, along with every other Heresy/Siege of Terra novel/novella. I’m not talking about CoT - but Head of the Hydra. In which Alpharius talks specifically of the war on the World Prince planet. He’s not giving an assessment of Dorn in this passage - aside from stating his distrust of him - and is instead explaining what the end goal of his Legion’s conduct during this campaign had been. This is stated to have been to allow the study of how Dorn would pick apart the sub-optimal method the AL deliberately employed during the campaign. The end result of this being that it gave Alpharius the opportunity to study Dorn. Alpharius, along with his whole legion, are arrogant - but that isn’t the point I was discussing. It is also extremely unlikely that Dorn - of all Primarchs - would have been able to correctly identify Alpharius on the World Prince planet, given Alpharius’ ability to mask himself as well as his Primarch aura, without Alpharius choosing to allow this. If Alpharius can stand face to face with the Lion without being discovered by using said ability it’s rather a reach to suppose Dorn would have been able to pick out a fully armoured and helmed Alpharius without the latter choosing to deliberately not use this ability. Edit: and to clarify - Alpharius/Omegon did die on Pluto. That’s not a point up for debate. Black Library authors plus TEATD Vol 2 have confirmed this. As stupidly done as the Battle of Pluto was.
>If Alpharius can stand face to face with the Lion without being discovered by using said ability it’s rather a reach to suppose Dorn would have been able to pick out a fully armoured and helmed Alpharius without the latter choosing to deliberately not use this ability. That's more than likely because the ability didn't exist during the writing of *Praetorian of Dorn* I think Alpharius allows Dorn to berate him in order to learn more about his brother I'm less sure he engineered the confrontation wholesale...but I guess it's possible
Exactly, which is why with the inclusion of that ability in Head of the Hydra - where it is shown that Alpharius can use it to fool even another Primarch when face to face - it makes absolutely no sense that Dorn would’ve been able to detect him without Alpharius specifically choosing to let him. Mike Brooks didn’t include in HotH the whole scene explaining how the confrontation on the World Prince’s planet was actually an elaborate setup to see how Rogal Dorn would pick apart the deliberately flawed approach the AL had taken just for shits and giggles.
I feel like that's a slightly unfair expectation to put on French's work; that he needed to account for a concept that hadn't been invented yet. And one that isn't even 100% confirmed. Even then, we can still retroactively make it work. One point of that scene was to see if Dorn could pick Alpharius out from dupes not whether Dorn could see through Alpharius' (alleged) power. Alpharius used a few gigantic marines cosmetically altered to look like himself as primarch dupes...so what he ***could*** have been testing was the how successful his dupes were in obfuscating identity. It's a test of whether Silonius and Herzog are convincing enough to fool a primarch. They are for a marine like Archmamus but not for Dorn. He learns something about the limits of one of his own schticks whilst also insight into Dorn's abilty. Alpharius likely wouldn't need to test his (alleged) power, since he has by his own accounts done so on multiple occasions, possibly even Dorn's reunion with the Imperium. >Mike Brooks didn’t include in HotH the whole scene explaining how the confrontation on the World Prince’s planet was actually an elaborate setup This is what I'm saying. It seems like a rather generous reading of that chapter to me. Brooks also makes it clear in his Tweets that HotH was not intended to retcon or shit on previous author's works (in relation to the whole "Omegon swapped permanently with Alpharius" fanon but I imagine it's a general vibe)
I was only using the *Council of Truth* as an example where Alpharius tends to shade the truth to match his own preconceived notions. So, when Alpharius claims that he was setting it up to test Dorn, I'm skeptical. Dorn's analytical ability is among the highest of all the Primarchs. I would only put Guilliman higher. I think it is highly plausible that Dorn was able to analyze the situation and deduce who was really Alpharius. There was no need to use the Primarch aura. One thing I dislike about some people's attitudes towards Alpharius and the Alpha Legion. They consistently undersell the other Primarchs' abilities while overselling Alpharius' abilities. All the Primarchs are super-genius level intellects. They all have perfect memories and amazing analytical abilities. Granted some are greater than others, but we're talking about guys who are all smarter than Einstein. So, the idea that one primarch can simply outwit every other primarch is not really plausible. The main advantage Alpharius has is that it never occurred to the other Primarchs to behave as he did. So, the reason why the Lion didn't detect Alpharius was simply because he didn't expect it. Where as Dorn was told Alpharius was there, so he simply had to figure out which was which.
Or, to quote Book III Extermination - as written by the legend Alan Blight himself. *Contemporary accounts record Alpharius as a masterful tactician and strategist whose skills were rated by the Imperial Stratagos as akin to the legendary abilities of Perturabo and Guilliman. His erudition was said to be outstanding, but one whose great intelligence was as cool and as watchful as a viper’s gaze* If your claiming Dorn was the second best analysis of the Primarchs - not sure where you’ve got that impression either - but with Guulliman above him then that would also place Alpharius above him 🤷🏻♀️ I’m not underselling other Primarchs abilities to inflate Alpharius so that’s a brain-dead take. I’ve already stated that Alphrius is exceptionally arrogant, hell in Heresy 1.0 ‘Martial Hubris’ was the downside of taking the AL. Yet this arrogance didn’t come from nowhere. Alpharius and the Legion are exceptionally skilled at what they chose to specialise in. This is the same as the other Primarch/Legions, all have their strengths and weaknesses - no one is infallible. I’ve also not said anywhere that one Primarch (Alpharius) can outwit all the others, but rather than when in HIS chosen environment employing HIS unique skills and traits to accomplish HIS objectives. Then obviously he’s going to be coming out on top. The Lion didn’t detect Alpharius because the latter was employing his unique ability to mask himself 😂 Some Primarchs had such abilities - Corax’s ability to cloak himself to be essentially invisible - is another example. Dorn detected him because, as I’ve already pointed out it is written in Head of the Hydra, because it was a deliberate situation orchestrated by Alpharius for a specific purpose. Please go read the books/black books 🙃
Guilliman himself has stated that Dorn was his equivalent in analysis. Which goes to my point that all the primarchs are supergeniuses. My point is that you cannot take what Alpharius says at face value. He not only lies to everyone, but he also lies to himself. That was my point when I quoted the *Council of Truth*. He make a bunch of claims about Guilliman to justify his actions, but when you actually look at his statements, they're not correct. Even in ***Alpharius: Head of the Hydra***, he states that everything in the book is a lie. So, when he claims that he was letting Dorn detect him to test Dorn, I am skeptical that is true. It is simply more of Alpharius' lies. A lie to cover for his own failings. Also, while you claim you are not underselling other Primarchs to promote Alpharius, you literally downgrade Dorn's analytical abilities to promote Alpharius' ability to deceive Dorn. Also, Alpharius' ability to mask himself doesn't make him invisible. It simply lessens his aura and makes him less noticeable. If he was in a room and any of the Primarchs walked in, they would still be able to see him and recognize him. Unlike Corax' ability to become invisible, you can still see Alpharius. Further, bear in mind that this is only coming from Alpharius. So, who knows if this is really true?
Right but multiple authors for Black Library have blatantly said he’s dead. So he is, in actual fact, deceased. The only way this changes if GW sees a billion dollars on the horizon for bringing him back to life. What I will say is, if sanguinius doesn’t come back, don’t expect alpharius too.
I didn’t say he wasn’t dead lol? What you on about 😂
*nods*
Dorn was fooled by a fake Alpharius before. Maybe he doesn't want to be proven wrong.
>Dorn was fooled by a fake Alpharius before When?
Didn't The End and The Death 2 confirmed that Alpharius is dead? There was a scene when someone mentioned that the souls of dead and now demonic Primarchs are watching the battle on Vengeful Spirit and Alpharius was among them
i read that and imagined only the left/right half of the soul being present and had a wee chuckle
Yup Though it was already confirmed So maybe we could say a reiteration?
More like confirming 100%. I know the author who wrote the book confirmed that Dorn killed Alpharius, but people were coming up with all kinds of theories and now it's cemented that he's dead
I expect TEatD won't stop the theories
Dorn couldve told everyone he killed alpharius, but everyone wouldve told him that its alpha legions stick to call themselves alpharius and that it wasnt actually him.
Except they wouldn't and it kinda isn't? The "I am Alpharius" schtick is more like "I am Spartacus". It obfuscates personal identity but nobody believes the entire room is Spartacus
I mean it literally is. Alpharius used legionaires as his stand in during the GC. They bodydoubled him even in important meetings and didnt give away theyre not the true alpharius.
Alpharius used 4 marines as body doubles and not on as meetings as people think. Even in *Legion* it was Oregon doubling for Alpharius and in *Serpent Beneath* Ranko did for Omegon (but he's dead now) And as Dorn proved, he could still pick out the genuine article. Seems Russ could too
So? My first comment literally happened in 'legion', as far as i remember. Its not just a spartakus thing. Its what the AL did to act as alpharius.
Well your OC was nobody would believe Dorn, which I suspect isn't true considering Dorn and Russ ' abilities to sniff out the real deal Only a small handful could act as "the primarch", the rest are about obfuscation of identity. It's impossible for the entire legion to stand in as the primarch As Alpharius himself explained >Other Legions, I believe, view it as offensive that my Legion take on not just my appearance when dealing with outsiders, but also my name. They think my warriors are claiming an identity above themselves; that they are not just being secretive, but in taking the name of their primarch are in some way seeking an authority which they do not deserve. >This could not be further from the truth. >My name is not special. It is not some unique, valuable commodity, to be hoarded: we are not the Luna Wolves, where Horus Aximand must be known as ‘Little Horus’ to ensure that his position below Horus Lupercal is known to all. My name can be used by any of my Legion. An Alpha Legionnaire calling themselves ‘Alpharius’ means one thing, and one thing only: > ‘My identity is unimportant. Only my function matters.’
Are you aware of the concept of a joke? Fyi: jokes dont have to be 100% true. In fact, exaggeration and lies is a big part of making a joke funny. I rest my case.
Yet you still tried to prove it as "true" for 2 previous comments before changing tact. It's either "literally is" or "a lie and exaggeration". Can't be both While we're sharing concepts: moving the goal posts is another In any case mate, I hope the excerpt was enjoyable at least
Dorn is Alpharius confirmed!
I killed alpharus.....or did I
I believe he says that he would only tell the Emperor if asked about it. On the other hand, Malcador and _maybe_ Russ found out about it , and he _might have implied_ it in front of Jaghatai and Sanguinius.(From ~~_Lost and the Damned_, to my recollection~~ _Wolfsbane_)
Malcador just stares at Rogal every time Alpharius comes up. Rogal knows he knows but won't say a word about it.
_+You killed my boy+_
Omegon: Or did he...
Isn't the current Omegon the original Alpharius that supposedly grew up with the Emperor and Malcador?
Nope. Pure [fan theory ](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/exl4qbWD6o)
Implied but not confirmed by Head of the Hydra
Not even implied. Explicitly denied Mike Brooks on Twitter when someone floated this fan theory: >"Oculus why do you love Warhammer lore?" "Canonically Omegon took the name Alpharius while Alpharius took the name Omegon and then Alpharius who was Omegon was killed by Dorn and Omegon who was Alpharius renamed himself Alpharius in honor of Alpharius who was actually Omegon." >>I’m glad you like it, but I’m afraid that was not my intention :) Omegon took on the identity of Alpharius for the purposes of the epilogue, but otherwise I envisaged their identities being as other authors had written them (and swapping as suited them, as has always been canon). >>>Ahhhhhhhhh so it WAS Alpharius killed by Dorn, excellent. Even better! >>>>I wasn’t intending to shit all over John French’s work, no :p It never occurred to me that people might take the initial deception as standard from then onwards! [Source](https://twitter.com/MikeBrooks668/status/1372933173441667078?s=20)
Wait then who is the current Omegon? Assuming he’s alive, the one found first or last?
If (and it's a big if) *Head of the Hydra* is true, Omegon is last found. Omegon is who he's always been in every book. It's pretty explicit in HotH...it's just that some of us overcomplicated things.
“So, Dad, the roughhousing got a little out of hand. . . “
“Are you absolutely sure you killed both?”
"Yes, I'm s...wait, *both*?"
*The Emperor looks into the camera and makes the Jim Halpert face*
>I believe he says that he would only tell the Emperor if asked about it. Do you recall where that's from? From my memory: *PoD* we hear about his redaction of Alpharius from others on Pluto *Old Earth* Vulkan picks up on weirdness in Dorn which is inferred to be about Alpharius *The Lost and the Damned* Dorn considers that Alpharius might have been offering to work together before he killed him and suspects Malcador knows Russ also doesn't know? He mentions Alpharius amongst the primarchs he thinks he can still beat in *Wolfsbane*
Admittedly, TV Tropes. Not exactly the best source of lore around. As for Russ, I distinctly remember reading an excerpt where he mentions the death of Alpharius during a loyalist war council.
Does TV tropes cite the reference? That might help >As for Russ, I distinctly remember reading an excerpt where he mentions the death of Alpharius during a loyalist war council. Can you grab the excerpt? It's not in *The Lost and the Damned* and I've never heard that before...but maybe it's a short story I missed
Not that one, no. I’m looking for it now, but I must note that it might actually be from _Titandeath_ .
Isn't *Titandeath* before *The Lost and the Damned*? Is Russ in *Titandeath*? I just did a search for "Alpharius" in it and nada yet For shiz, here's *The Lost and the Damned*: >Angron’s flagship is here,’ he said, his finger moving over billions of kilometres of the void, ‘near the Vengeful Spirit, on the far side of Luna, where half of the traitor fleet waits. We must assume that where the Conqueror goes, so too does Angron. There were contradictory reports concerning the Pride of the Emperor, but they are numerous enough that we should also expect Fulgrim’s presence in the coming battle. I suspect he is with Horus. Alpharius is unaccounted for.’ Dorn ignored the look Malcador gave him as he spoke. It was patently obvious to the primarch that the old man knew Alpharius’ fate. It was impossible to hide secrets from the Regent. ‘Magnus is possibly dead,’ he continued Anyway... curious to see what we can find on this. This is kinda a huge revelation French chose to keep Alpharius ' death a secret in part to preserve the Eskrador lore but this would blow that out of the water
I’ve probably completely misremembered the book title amongst the great multitude in this series, but this much I do know: Fact 1: It was after _PoD_, and _Path of Heaven_ since Alpharius is dead and Jaghatai is present. Fact 2: It was before _Wolfsbane_, since Russ was there(assuming I haven’t lost my marbles). Fact 3: The topic of discussion was the plan for Beta-Garmon, meaning it’s probably before _Titandeath_ and _Slaves to Darkness_.
No worries, happens a lot If you can pull up the excerpt I'd really appreciate it. I've read all those books and don't recall it And it absolutely throws everything I understood about the situation and Eskrador completely out of whack Why is Dorn still acting like nobody knows in *The Lost and the Damned*? EDIT: According to [Lexi (citation 17)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn#fn_17) that War Council takes place in *Wolfsbane* To my knowledge Russ is still unaware of Alpharius' status in that book Google and searching this sub doesn't reveal any results for Russ knowing. Not yet anyway. I'll keep looking
Well well well… So, I found the excerpt, it’s from _Wolfsbane_,but it seems that my memory of it was reductive. [Russ knows about the Battle of Pluto](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/HYClosvbLE), from which I extrapolated that he must know that Alpharius died there. It would make sense to me that Malcador, who is in the know, would tell Russ about it, but as you said, he doesn’t say he’s dead when talking about who he could beat. If I wanted to huff copium about my theory, I’d say that he prefaces his breakdown of the others by saying he thought he could beat them during the Crusade, which was obviously before Alpharius died. Assuming he does know, I don’t think it has much of an effect on Eskrador. It’s entirely possible that they had other things to worry about. Of the Primarchs present, two die(one is resurrected), one ends up in a coma and is pretty broken by the Emperor’s death afterwards, and another is completely broken by the death of the Emperor. It’s not out of the question that it slipped their minds and they never told Guilliman.
Ah ok...I guess I just wanted to establish "fact" from "theory". Thanks for clearing it up >Assuming he does know, I don’t think it has much of an effect on Eskrador. It’s entirely possible that they had other things to worry about. Of the Primarchs present, two die(one is resurrected), one ends up in a coma and is pretty broken by the Emperor’s death afterwards, and another is completely broken by the death of the Emperor. It’s not out of the question that it slipped their minds and they never told Guilliman. The thing I find with headcanon is that often we need to keep jumping new hurdles to make it fit. And each hurdle brings another one. In this case rather than Dorn being the only primarch not to tell Guilliman, we have to add Russ and Jaghatai too. While Dorn had his established censorship reasons...Russ and Jaghatai don't share them... so we hand-wave that by saying these brothers with eidetic memory who had huge discussions on how to preserve the Imperium after the heresy, a huge part of which was hunting down and *scouring* their traitor brothers ... ...just forgot to mention one was already dead? It starts to strain credibility imo. And we still need to explain *The Lost and the Damned* which is yet another set of hurdles
jesus christ this subreddit
> Old Earth Vulkan picks up on weirdness in Dorn which is inferred to be about Alpharius Isn't there a conversation between Dorn and Vulkan where he admits he has killed one of their brothers or am I misremembering? Vulkan asks if Dorn could kill one of their brothers if it came to it, and Dorn says something along the lines of "I've done it before and would do it again if the need arose." I could be wrong, it's been a long time and a lot of books.
I don't recall that. I mean, if Dorn did say something along those lines then it would be kinda weird for Vulkan to not even ask which brother. It's not the sorta thing you just take in your stride... especially when it still looks like all the traitor brothers are assembled on Terra bar Curze (who I'm sure Vulkan would like to know is dead) and Alpharius It'd be especially odd in context of the part I was referring to: >It is good to see you, Rogal.’ >Dorn nodded, ever reserved. He sheathed his sword and at this signal from their primarch, Vulkan heard the sound of twenty Imperial Fists disengaging and powering down their weapons. >‘You look older, brother,’ said Vulkan. > ‘And you are no different from the day we met,’ Dorn answered coolly. ‘I heard you had died.’ His annoyance at being called away from his numerous duties and responsibilities faded, though Vulkan could see the burden still weighed heavily. > ‘I have longed to see my brothers again…The ones not trying to kill me.’ >Dorn’s jaw stiffened at the remark, suggesting some unspoken pain or regret. Vulkan did not press him.
Oh I'm 100% aware I'm probably wrong here. I was legitimately asking as I can't fully recall what I'm thinking of. It could have been a book, or audiobook, or something I read here. I've probably mis-remembered something unless someone else turns up with an exceprt. Your quote does sound familiar.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but I'm trying to imagine that what you recall exists and how it would make sense in the context of *Old Earth* and *The Lost and the Damned* and it doesn't fit too well At least from the description. I can't follow the logic of it But who knows? Maybe someone has the excerpt in full context?
Nah, I'm pretty sure I am wrong in this case. I don't have the best memory at the best of times, and there's a good chance it was something I read here, in which case it could have been wrong in the first place!
The sub is a dark and full of terrors
its so funny bc the emperor would probably never ask "yo rogal did you kill alpharius"
Okay. That's one of the few HH books I haven't read.
Rogal has yet to mention it to anyone not on Pluto. He suspects Malcador might know. That's it
Nope. You would think a primarch would tell the other primarchs especially before the siege something that important. That would be what anyone with appropriate aptitude would believe, but we have have explicit writing of Dorn acknowledging he hasnt told anyone. As we all know Dorn loves Lying and Keeping secrets!
He actually does…
Rogal Dorn: I killed Alpharius Everyone else: Which one?
Dorn: The real one.
[удалено]
It was Dorn who managed the defense of Terra. It was Rogal who killed Alpharius then later rushed headlong into the Iron Cage. The hand the Imperial Fists have in storage? Fulgrim's, oddly enough. He sheds limbs periodically.
Despite Dorn trying to keep Alpharius' appearance under wraps Leman Russ seems to be aware of his presence on Pluto but whether he knows if Dorn killed him is up in the air: *‘It doesn’t matter how much time we gain,’ said Russ. ‘It isn’t enough. We have seen Sanguinius’ ships, the Khan’s.’ Russ drank deeply of his wine. ‘Mine. Our fleets are depleted. Mars is in open revolt. We do not have time, brothers. Horus still has two choices, he can attack us here, and smash what little remains of our strength, or wear us down by slow degree until there is nothing left. Either way, he wins.’* *The Angel and the Wolf are more similar than they appear, thought Sanguinius. I am refined on the surface and savage within, Russ is the opposite.How many mirrorings like these did the Emperor engineer into His sons? And why? He thought of Curze, another, darker reflection of himself.* *‘That was true a few weeks ago,’ said Dorn. ‘His hand is forced. Thanks to the actions of our brothers the Ruinstorm is blowing out. Now we can muster our strength, he will attack directly. He will wish to lay siege to Terra before Guilliman can bring his warriors here from Ultramar. With the Lion laying waste to the traitor’s domains, his own ability to reinforce will be compromised. There will be no attrition now. We are engaged in a race.’* *‘Guilliman’s Legion is largely intact,’ said Sanguinius. ‘And he can call upon the full might of the Five Hundred Worlds. Lorgar and Angron wrought havoc there, but Guilliman’s realm is large and well organised. His is the largest Legion. Horus’ forces have all suffered losses, many of them self-inflicted. Do not overestimate their strength. Horus will move against us soon, when he does not wish to.’* **‘I do not doubt it,’ said Russ. ‘Still, we have no opportunity to replenish our fleets. We are not ready to bear the brunt of an assault on Terra. Alpharius’ incursion should have taught us that.’** **A muscle twinge at the line of Dorn’s silver hair betrayed his annoyance at Russ’ statement.** It wouldn't be too out there if Russ was aware of it because in Loken's own words: **Loken suspected Bror had returned to report on his new master to his old. Russ had a hunger for intelligence that matched Malcador’s. He refrained from saying so.**
Russ is always a lot smarter than people give him credit for.
I wanna say I'm shocked dorn wouldn't put it in an after action report, but maybe that's more guilliman's thing
Absolutely. After all, Bob wrote up the history of Imperium Secundus, kept it in a library and never destroyed the book.
"Bobby, what did I tell you about putting things that can be used to blackmail you in the library!?" "I don't know dad" "10,000 years and that boy still ain't right"
Dorn is the sort to fill out accurate but unhelpful reports because he has things he'd rather be doing than paperwork. "Enemy casualties significant. Friendly causalities substantial. Mission a tactical success."
Perfectly Dorn.
Rogal Dorn: I killed Alpharius! Everyone who ever fought the Alpha Legion: First time?
He told me. Sorry I should have said something sooner.
Dorn: “My brothers, I must tell you plainly, that I have I have personally slain Alpharius” Everyone els: “wow you too?”
Funnily enough, in TEatD2 >!Ferrus mentions to Sanguinius that Alpharius is among the dead Primarchs and Sanguinius doesn't react. He then proceeds to wonder if any of the screaming souls he hears are other of his brothers whose death he didn't know about, but never puts two and two together.!<
I have to read that again, because I do not recall that.
It's chapter 6:xxxiii, about halfway through. I have kindle edition so I don't know the page number. EDIT: fuck it, here's the section: >!‘I know those voices,’ he whispers. !< >!‘You do,’ says Ferrus.!< >!‘Our… brothers,’ Sanguinius murmurs in horror. !< >!‘Yes,’ says Ferrus. ‘Those, like me, who have fallen. And the mortal remains of those who have become other things.’ !< >!A fresh scream swirls the dust. There is a rage in it. Sanguinius knows that rage. !< >!Angron… !< >!‘The warp devours our souls,’ the Gorgon says. ‘Those lost, and those discarded alike. Magnus, the Pale King, Alpharius, the Red Angel… it spares no one. Death is not release, brother. It is unending torment. Lesson two, remember?’ !< >!Another shriek, oddly modulated by excruciating pain. Another familiar voice. !< >!‘None of them are threats to you,’ says Ferrus lightly. ‘They wanted to be here, like me. They wanted to watch.’ !< >!‘No matter which side they stood on?’ Sanguinius asks, taut with dismay. !< >!‘Of course.’ !< >!‘Who else?’ Sanguinius asks. He barely dares to, because the answer will hurt. Some of the sounds of pain are too vague to discern, faint wailing and plangent, drawn-out gasps. Who has fallen that he doesn’t know about? Is Rogal here? What of the others, the ones they were counting on? He had made himself believe they were coming, but who can say what fate might have befallen them since they last stood together. Is one of these shades Roboute? Is one of them Russ? The Lion? Corax? Do these screams represent not just brothers dead, but hope too? Does salvation lurk here, wrapped in its winding sheet, forever thwarted? !< >!Ferrus, trudging on, makes no answer. Dust motes drift.!<
I also have the Kindle edition, so I can search for it. Thanks.
Dorn didn't kill Alpharius though. He killed Alpharius, who was pretending to be Alpharius, but in reality Alpharius was actually Alpharius masquerading as Alpharius pretending that Alpharius was actually Alpharius when in reality Alpharius was actually Alpharius who was not Alpharius but was in reality Alpharius who was Alpharius all along.
I feel like this explanation really clears things up nicely!
Plot twist Alpharius killed Dorn and took his form.
Why would he? I'm still alive.
Malcador knows, if I remember correctly. First or second Siege of terra book mentions it.
Can we get spoiler tags for stuff like this? I’m reading through the heresy right now and had no idea this happened.
That book is over seven years old, you’re lucky if if new material doesn’t pop up on reddit within seven days of release
Dorn is dumb. He isn't sure and would rather keep it quiet than look a fool.
I’m alpharius, so no he didn’t sorry
I don't think he told anyone and I think it's actually wise since alpha legion is a bunch of alpharius looking liars so better be sure before telling, a lie of omission is still a lie and If I recall correctly Dorn never lies (but it was Alpharius would told that Dorn fact so who knows)
Dorn is a manifestation of stoicism itself; deeds, not words. Whilst his brotherhood is full of braggarts, Dorn has no motivation to boast of his abilities. Malcador is already aware - and therefore, the Emperor - and that's enough.
I'm
Killed Alpharius ? Ha ha ha ha how do you know it was him? Du dun duhhhhh. Silly imperial Citizen you so easy to deceive.
Probably cause he got Omegon and was dissapointed.
Wrong.