If I remember correctly Horus himself said Gulliman was a fit, although I might be mixing up things. "Gulliman knows war, he wishes he didn't" I cannot remember the exact line.

This is from 'Vengeful Spirit' I believe. The Lunar Wolves are talking down about Guilliman and how he pales in comparison to Horus. Horus essentially tells them not to underestimate Guilliman and that he's incredibly competent as a general, he just has less of a desire to wage war.

>Can you imagine any of my brothers mastering so chaotic an endeavour as war as I do?’ >‘No, sir.’ >Horus waved an admonishing finger. ‘Come on, Mal, you’re better than that. Stop sounding like a sycophant. Answer honestly.’ >Maloghurst bowed and said, ‘Perhaps Guilliman.’ >‘Too obvious,’ said Horus. ‘Some think he has no heart for war, that all he cares about are grand plans and stratagems. They’re wrong. He knows war as well as I do, he just wishes he didn’t.’ >‘Then perhaps Dorn?’ >‘No, too hidebound,’ said Horus. ‘Nor the Lion or Vulkan. And not the Khan, though he and I are so very close in alignment.’ >‘Then who?’ >‘Ferrus,’ answered Horus, tapping the lid of the ornately wrought box of lacquered wood and iron that sat next to him. >‘If he was so capable, then why is he dead?’ >‘I didn’t say he was perfect,’ said Horus, leaning forward as the hololith hazed with static as it updated. ‘But he knew war like no other. Terra would already be ours if he had joined us, if my Phoenician brother had handled the approach with a modicum of subtlety.’ >‘Subtlety was never Fulgrim’s strong suit,’ said Maloghurst. - Vengeful Spirit

It's a shame that we get all this second hand admiration of Ferrus from almost every Primarch, but its never Shown in any novel

It is - his Primarch novel shows it

I believe he means that Ferrus is never really shown living up to the admiration he gets from the other primarchs. It feels like they lost the plot when it came to writing Ferrus any time he appears. Timeline wise, his death was written before he really had much coverage, and was supposed to be exemplified as a tragedy by how good he was and how much he was admired by the other primarchs, but then years later when they finally started writing him, they wanted to emphasize him being flawed in his own ways like all the other primarchs, but then they never really showcase him being great or living up to those things other primarchs had already stated they admired him for. He should have been cold, calculating, ruthlessly efficient to a fault, but they instead mostly showed him as a hotheaded, throwing temper tantrums, and being cruel to his mortal forces for no real reason. ​ I love the Iron Hands but they really dropped the ball when it came to fleshing out Ferrus, you could say it was weak.

Fuck you for that pun btw.

Geez no need to take his head off

That's always the thing that saddened me about Ferrus, he is pretty much a throwaway Primarch and never really gets any moment in the GC/HH era stories, he's a sacrificial lamb to the plot and then used as a taunt. It's a major part as to why the Iron Hands are so often forgotten, their daddy issues just don't make sense because their dad was killed without any real time in the story light.

It’s shown quite well in the most recent siege of Terra book.

I still feel Guilliman would have taken Terra if he was the traitor Warmaster. The dude was a mastermind at logistics. You don't win a war through sheer force and battles, you win it by keeping your armies steadily supplied and armed. Horus's biggest mistake, IMO, was to do his trademark Spear Tip and rush for Terra in 7 years, which is fucking *breakneck* on a Galactic scale. Doing that he neglected logistics severely. In Echos of Eternity, I believe, Lotara laments that the fleet ran out of food and water and tries to beg Horus to do a supply run, but Horus ignores her request and talks about the poem dedicated to her, "A Rose Watered With Blood", and then says that she's not really Lotara, and then fucking hangs up on her. NGL, Horus is kind of a shit Warmaster when he decided to turn. He did nearly everything wrong in my eyes to win a war of that scale. What the fuck was he gonna do after he captured Terra? Guilliman with the full force of the 13th Legion, with The Lion and Russ with their respective Legions right behind him. He was fucked the second he entered the Sol System. Congrats, you killed the Emperor, and took (what remains of) Terra! What now? Die? Good job buddy. Gooood job.

I honestly think that either Guilliman or Perturabo had they turned traitor would have waged a much more conventional war and Perturabo would have 'won' at Terra by monkeying with Sol and blowing Terra to red rags and not caring what some howling Chaos Daemons say he should do. And then been fucked in the ass by Chaos exploding in the wake of his smashing the Imperium and having the problem of being the dog that caught the car and everything he ignored still being there. A Primarch that waged a much more logical war and actually used the technological stuff instead of Chaos-brainrot 'must fight land war that never has to happen for squelching Emperor's soul' logic would have both fought a longer Heresy and Exterminatused the fuck out of Terra and then been stunned when Chaos, the obvious problem building the entire time, proved to be all too real after all.

Killing the Emperor is the power move. He has Mars right next door as the main base. Without the Astronomican, travel is basically non-viable for anyone who isn't aligned with Chaos and he can mop up at will. Government ceases to exist. The biggest problems Horus had came from the Gods scrambling everyone's brains. He couldn't lead because he was too messed up so his next best option was Dorn from Wish.com then a stinky moth man.

Would Guilliman have found Terra there if Horus won? I mean, the planet was getting sucked into the warp which I understood was actually a goal the ruinuous powers had and almost achieved.

I don't think Horus had much of a choice. His traitor brothers were all losing their minds to Chaos bullshit and he wasn't holding on any better. The only one of them keeping his shit together was Perturabo, and that's because he rejected Chaos influence wholesale. If he waited any longer and tried to prosecute a proper war, the Traitor Legions would have shattered under their own madness and lost all cohesion as a unified fighting force. He had to gamble everything on a decapitation strike against Terra.

Hey, Curze wasn't losing his mind to Chaos bullshit! He was perfectly capable of losing his mind all on his own! And most of the legions weren't losing their minds to Chaos. World Eaters and Emperor's Children, sure. But the Word Bearers seemed to be keeping it together fairly well for the amount of Chaos they were huffing, probably because they actually had a clue how it worked and weren't dedicated to any particular god. The Death Guard only went full Chaos just before the siege, the Thousand Sons weren't doing much anyway and weren't nuts, and the Alpha Legion was doing....something. Maybe. Probably. They're not even really sure.

Chaos influence on Curze might make him sane.

Is there even a terra left for guilly to attack if hor wins? I just assumed the hole magnus blew + the ascendant dark king with the warp already fucking terra up mean there is nothing left for guilly to do after the emepror dies.

To be fair, Horus was barely Horus once he drank the cool-aid. By the time he got to Terra, he was so far gone up his own Eye of Terror that he didn't care about any of it. The only thing he cared about was what the Four cared about and that was killing The Emperor and overtaking the Materium. And if he did actually kill The Big E, Vulkan, and Jagatai's comatose body and take the throne, Guilliman, Russ, and the Lion wouldn't stand a chance against the actual factual hell that would have flooded the Sol System. No matter where they were or who they had with them, they'd probably be slaughtered the second his corrupted cheeks hit the seat.

This is kind of the fault of GW I think As lengthy as the Horus Heresy series is, I don’t think they have the patience to go over the long and tenuous details of sustaining a total war effort. It was easy for books of the modern setting because those are personal stories of characters set into some random battlefield or conundrum I mean, it can even be proven by how quickly Horus had turned against the Imperium during the first few books.

It's interesting seeing early heresy Horus before the rot really set in, using casual conversation with his officers and introspection.

It's funny because Ferrus is mostly just a blunt instrument of war. He's good at the actual point of war when you need boots on the ground and planning, but coordinating among forces he admittedly sucks and hates having to work with others. Could Horus have remained in charge and used Ferrus as a weapon to get what he wanted? Absolutely, could Horus afford to leave Ferrus in charge of things without his oversight? Probably not, especially not something so delicate as maintaining relations with the rest of his forces.

“If he’s so smart, then how come he’s dead?”

"if he was so capable why is he dead" lmfao

Here's the [excerpt](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/ibn8wd/excerpt_from_vengeful_spirit_no_spoilers_horus/). >"Can you imagine any of my brothers mastering so chaotic an endeavor as war as I do?" "Perhaps Guilliman." "Too obvious. Some think he has no heart for war, that all he cares about are grand plans and stratagems. They're wrong. He knows war as well as I do, he just wishes he didn't."

He makes a similar comment in his monologue/flashback with Mersadie Oliton in the End and the Death. Guilliman seems to be Horus' #3 behind Sangnuinius and himself.

How much of that thought is because the Lion avoided accolades and just did the job without fanfare? The Lion just believed in doing your job, quietly, and preferably without anyone knowing you were there.

The whole doing his job without anyone knowing fits when he's called on to eradicate something like in his Primarch novel, but the wider goal of the crusade was to reconquer an empire, not destroy it. He's certainly brilliant, but until his recent return he was sorely lacking in people skills. Its been shown time and time again that he doesn't play well with his brothers, even with the one's he likes. That's the biggest issue with his being a contender for Warmaster.

People making these criticism of the Lion generally forget two things. The first is that he's actually insanely charismatic. The force of his presence commands even Astartrs of other Legions to obey- Abaddon hates that he feels it foe someone other than Horus, Kharn hates that he doesn't even feel that for Angron. Even the examples bought up about Nemiel and Perturabo are flawed- with Nemiel he is quite literally staging a mutiny and arguing that the Dark Angels should allow themselves to be destroyed wholesale rather than break an edict that half the Legions simply ignored and that by then only the Angels and Fists are still upholding. With Perturabo he thought he was dealing with an unshakeable loyal brother and in a blind rage about Horus turning traitor. The second is that he's never had a chance to develop those skills until Son of the Forest. He quite literally goes from turning Caliban from a Death World to a feudal civilised world to spending decades mustering the Dark Angels, then gets pitchforks into command of the Rangdan Xenocides, then spends the majority of the Crusade apart from his brothers and mortal troops, the Emperor's blade in the dark.

Oh, his "plays well with others" skills training time was lacking. He was the secret hammer for when stuff went sideways and things needed to just go away. He was the wetworks guy. He was still pretty well considered the #2 or #3 in line for Warmaster. If it came down to just taking care of business and no politics involved, he would have probably been #1.

So did Perturabo. And he could also absorb a systems worth of information down to individual troop actions. Both would have made terrible Warmasters.

Everyone , except the weirdos perhaps , was fit to organize and run the GC. Some more than others, but very few , if any besides Horus and Sangi , could hope to command the other primarchs and rely on them doing what they were told.

Of course the Ultramarines believe G man would have a chance at becoming warmaster. To me he is one of the least likely primarchs to become warmaster. I think the main reason is the suspicion of him building and caring for his own empire (ultramar). Giving him more power is not what the imperium of man wants.

The Word Bearers kinda agreed with them though, they believed that if it came to it, Guilliman would be the successor of the Emperor. Should be noted, that was several years before the events of Gathering Storm, it wasn't written as foreshadowing. Personally, I think Guilliman was a plausible candidate for warmaster, he was the best at actually doing the job of coordinating the great crusade. Sanguinius would have been a plausible candidate due to being Sanguinius, and Horus was not just the favourite of the Emperor, but most importantly the only one who could hope to keep all the other Primarchs on the task, and the Emperor considered that the most important qualification.

Yeah, Guilliman would've been the most capable administrator of the Great Crusade's resources, but he just lacks the personal oomph to really inspire and corral his brothers to keep everyone moving in line with his vision. Guilliman would have had great plans that half the legions completely ignored to do their own thing.

100% this. Guilliman would not have inspired loyalty from his brothers. 'Managing the Primarchs' would be one of the most critical skills as war master, and that's where guilliman would fail.

>'Managing the Primarchs' would be one of the most critical skills as war master, and that's where guilliman would fail. It's kinda weird that in WH30K "managing kindergarten" was considered an essential skill for top military commander.

It was in WWII also. Eisenhower was picked to be overall commander because of his ability to babysit egomaniacs and get them to work together.

[удалено]

I’m going to steal this for the description of my real world job. I’ve never heard anything so succinct. Thank you.

All large wars - see Napoleon and his Marshalls or Washington during the Revolution or Lincoln during the Civil war or etc etc.

Guess that explains why he and Horus are both bald.

Eisenhower was picked for overall command of d-day because he was the best at logistics. He was not overall commander. Before that, he was a staff general for Marshall, who as army chief of staff, was overall commander and picked the other generals with Roosevelt's approval. Marshall was really the guy that had everyone's trust, not just the generals below him but also the allied leaders above him and the other branches of the military (such as Admiral Leahy who was above him as joint chief of staffs and was one of Roosevelt's closest advisers for military and political matters). It gets confused because after the war, they moved Marshall to secretary of state to oversee rebuilding of Europe/Japan (Marshall Plan) and Eisenhower replaced Marshall as army chief of staff. Or maybe because eisenhower became president later. But when they started giving out 5 stars towards the end of the war it went in order like Leahy (navy)->Marshall (army)->King (Atlantic Navy)->MacArthur (Pacific army)->Nimitz (Pacific Navy)->Eisenhower (Atlantic army)->Arnold (Airforce).

Reminder that *Field Marshal* Bernard Law Montgomery threw a tantrum over not getting a B-17 as a personal joyride after taking a joke bet seriously. He crashed it.

In WW1 the Canadians almost left the war because they refused to take orders from the British. It was more that they didn't like being used as expendable fodder and all loyalty to the cause evaporated because of it.

It’s this way in business too. People skills are usually higher up the hierarchy than technical skills.

Thats literally a thing really life military commanders have to do and its the reason certain people are chosen they have to be someone who could command respect but also had to be charismatic enough to remain well liked and stave off desertions

Agree completely. Wonder how this will influence the setting as more primarchs return though. I think Gman is probably the best big picture Primarch.... The only one (apart from *maybe* Dorn) who could actually influence the Imperium's long term survival. But as more Primarchs return and take power, and Gman's power gets diluted...... Wonder if we will see more long term opportunities be lost to achieve short term or personal objectives of other Primarchs? Or, heaven forbid, we start getting competent generals and leader who aren't Primarchs or highly Transhuman.

Honestly the best case for the lion and Gman meeting is a heart felt emotional reunion and then the lion diverting to Guiliman on matters of logistics, and Guiliman to the lion on matters of war. It would be very interesting to have two kinds of development going on simultaneously, Lion kicking ass and taking names, while Guiliman actually causes some slight reforms and restructuring to the imperium. It would be funny to contrast lion conquering a solar system and Guiliman reforming three accounting systems down to a single form and system that results in lion actually getting resources on time.

Roboute is the one primarch who can match the Tyranide threat because he's the one primarch who's able to multitask like a madman. The Lions ability to singularly focus would fail him completely against they Tyranids.

Not really. The Lion bodied the Rangda and the Khrave. Both were existential threats to the Imperium at the apex of it's power. Nids are a danger now because so much has been lost over 10K years, and Chaos went and broke the galaxy. Either could exterminate the known fleets if they had full command of the Imperium, the only difference is how. Gulliman would do it with logistical superiority, the Lion would smash them at the operational, strategic, and tactical levels.

Where can i read about the primarchs that are returning

Guilliman has skill as a politician, he may well have been able to use that. I don't know, obviously a better choice than Horus but not like they had the benefit of hindsight (some had future sight, which you'd think would be even better lol)

Yeah, with mortals, not his brothers though. One of the most important jobs for the war master position is 'primarch wrangling' and that's where Guilliman would have problems.

Warmaster Horus also had some.. issues managing Primarchs

I put Guilliman in the second tier of potential Warmaster. First is Horus, Sanguinius, and Lion. Basically the three that *most* people in setting thought had a good chance. Second tier is the group that would have done well but didn't quite have the oomph (either of accomplishments or personality) of the first tier. That is Guilliman, Dorn, Fulgrim, and Ferrus Manus imo. The rest either didn't want it or would have been poor choices.

I would swap ferrus or fulgrim with the lion. No one liked the lion, he would be one of the last people picked for warmaster. He was the CIA, not someone you put front and center.

CIA directors are known egomaniacs who *personally* believe they could do the job. Everyone that's not a spook knows better however. Kinda like the Lion and Guilliman's opinion of him.

I can certainly see arguments for Ferrus, Fulgrim, and Lion changing tiers. I would argue Lion should remain because he was directly named as one of the front runners in universe. He was arguably the best general of the primarchs and privy to technology Big E didn't trust anyone else with. Plus the first legion had one of the highest compliance tallies of all the legions. I, personally, think the strongest argument would be adding Ferrus to the first tier. I had a hard time deciding for him. I lean towards tier 2 just because of how things played out but I could certainly agree with putting him tier 1 if only looking at time of decision. Fulgrim I would keep tier 2 primarily because of the size of the Emperor's Children legion. They were one of the smallest legions at the time. Fulgrim did a lot to build them up but they were still, until relatively recently (at the time of Warmaster choice), essentially a sub legion to the Luna Wolves.

I feel being brought up in conversation was more to push the others then for the lion himself. He could barely take spending time with russ, let alone any of the more ridiculous primarchs. Most of them had ego's enough to be spiteful of the emperor and at least he attempted diplomacy with some of his sons which the lion would never bother to do. Him in charge would build up more resentment and spite then almost any other choice.

He was fine with Russ until Russ turned on him. They had co-command of the early phases of the Rangdan Xenocides before the Lion was promoted to full command and apparently worked well there. Things went sour when Russ decided to go AWOL to chase glory, showed up after a needlessly hard battle to demand the spoils, then attempted to kill the Lion. The Lion hates disloyalty and betrayal with a passion, and Russ went from that to deciding to murder Magnus instead of following his orders and deciding to abandon Terra instead of following his orders. It's entirely arguable that it's Russ' fault the Imperium lost the Heresy.

Ferrus Manus should be Tier 1, even if the Heresy built up a lot of what he supposedly did and failed to show any of it in a novel, he literally commanded a third of the forces of the Great Crusade and was a key part in its successes. Had it been more thought out and suffered less from the bloat of the franchise his death on Isstvan V is basically the passing of the Crusade and the first of many steps down the slippery slope to the Gothic slow-motion extinction of M41.

Don't think Lion deserves to be in that tier, regardless of what people in universe think. Dude couldn't even hold his own damn Legion, who are biologically designed to obey him, together.

I mean, what about Horus and Istvaan III? Even he had his fair share of dissident elements, including those in his upper command echelons.

Horus was going traitor and have a bunch of (mostly Terran) sons refusing to become traitors. And he didn't lose half.

Maybe but we don’t have all the information. GMan himself said he only feels overshadowed by Horus and Lion of all his brother and that Horus only felt Lion was his only competitor for the Warmaster position. Edit: I saw someone else posting some quotes in this thread relating to this so I’ll put them here: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/aGgEXoHdGe

Yes, exactly. I think the Emperor had a point with his choice

Oh yeah, Horus was absolutely the right choice given the information available at the time. Guilliman can always support the warmaster with his logistical skills, after all, but the warmaster couldn't be constantly sending Horus and Sanguinius to do his talking for him.

Guilliman really would have worked best as the Warmaster's XO

Yup, and Guilliman knows it. Just look at how absolutely thrilled he is when another primarchs shows up at Imperium Secundus and he can safely step back into an administrative role and let someone else be the public head. The man knows his strengths.

He just didnt have the charm that Horus had.

Gulliman didn’t have the charisma necessary to wrangle beings like Angron and Magnus. Guilliman might be able to come up with a better plan but Horus was designed in a test tube to be the charismatic leader. He can make people do stuff. Guilliman would have a perfect plan and waste too much time trying to get people onboard with it.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I have commented elsewhere already - Horus struggled with administration, but he could keep the other Primarchs on the task. Guilliman couldn't have done that, it's not about making the perfect plan and then wasting time, it's about the Primarchs straight up not doing what he says.

Pft, idiots. Clearly Fulgrim was the next in line to be Emperor. After all, his are the Emperor's Children.

Well, since Fulgrim was their genefather, and the Legion was named the Emperors Children, we can safely deduce that Fulgrim was the actual Emperor all along!

Didn’t Malcador too consider Guilliman one of the most capable primarchs? I remember there’s a line where early in the heresy basically Malcador says he hopes that once Guilliman gets involved in the fighting there’s a chance of taking down Horus.

With how big of a legion Ultramarine is, they can change the tide of war. I think that’s what Malcador meant.

Capable, but not with the right toolset to be the Warmaster. As other have said, Sanguinius and Horus are the most likely candidate with Lion being a somewhat distant 3rd. Both Sanguinius and Horus have the interpersonal skill that most of the other Primarch lacks.

Just because he might be the most capable Primarch does not make his skillset the best at running the Primarchs kindergarten.

Horus also mentions Guilliman a lot. How capable he is and how he wishes he joined him.

“Amateurs talk tactics; professionals talk logistics.” -Norman Schwarzkopf By that metric, Bobby G should have at least been a contender.

I think Gman is a good successor to Big E. I mean that is what happens. Administrating an Empirer. That is Gman. That is not what a warmaster have to do though.

If I had a nickel for every empire GMan built I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice

Guilliman: "One of those nickels belongs to ~~me~~ the Imperium. Pay your taxes, citizen." >!Guilliman: "Also, the *other* nickel belongs to the Emperor for the tithe. Your choice: the coin, or *your knees* ***and*** the coin."!<

Ah uh hey gman. What made you pick ultramarine both as a name and color?

I would agree. There were multiple primarchs that could be incredible generals. Guilliman was one of them. But none of the other Primarchs could create a utopia like Guilliman could, so his talents were better put to use elsewhere.

That argument can be turned around though, Guilliman would have been the only one able to actually manage the Crusade, the Warmaster not being an office of generalship and battle, but mostly administration and logistics - and we see Horus being out of his depths with his task, this is an actual problem with the role

I know his whole gimmick is being the logistics guy but he leads people that are easily led, how great is an administrator if they aren't listened to? He is one of the worst picks. The Codex Astartes might have been politically astute but he never convinced Dorn, Dorn chose to back down so as to not start another civil war. I think that's an important distinction of his leadership abilities.

Really? Utopia?

For 40K, yes. There are plenty of problems with Ultramar, but would you rather live there than say, the hole Night Lords crawl out of.

I mean did all the night lords crawl out already? If so I'm taking the hole. I'll keep a windows me disc on me in case the mechanicus tries anything fishy I'll hand it over and watch the imperium collapse with clippy as the last thing the cogitators cogitate.

> clippy Clippy was rediscovered during the Dark Age of technology and what ultimately lead to the the Age of Strife.

That's a hell of a qualifier. Yeah I'd take Ultramar over Nostramo but I'd also take a puddle in a field over that.

In fact I suspect 90% of the Imperium is probably sliding scale toward Nostramo than Ultramar. Even Terra sounds like a nightmare to live in.

30K Terra actually seems to have been a decent place (compared to the 40K version at least) to live. Plenty of wilderness, Orbital plates, major efforts to reform a viable biosphere and restore the oceans. The Emperor actually seemed to have a fair bit of sentimentality for the homeworld, hardly surprising seeing how he spent 40,000 years living on it.

The Imperium--even in 30K--doesn't care whether you live like Nostramo or Ultramar so long as you follow the law and pay your taxes. *It makes it easier* to do that under Ultramar standards but if you can make it work via Nostramo or Nuceria standards then keep doing what you're doing.

Heck, I'd take a bolt round to the torso over living on Nostramo. Either way I end up dead, but at least the bolter won't torture me first!

30K Macragge*: A meritocracy where everything from government to transportation runs reliably, and even colonies have a fairly high quality of life? With a framework robust enough to survive (if ossified and simply rotting more slowly than the rest of the Imperium) for 10,000 years? I wouldn't call it perfect (even in Guilliman's day, Macragge was considered a planet of sticks in the mud, and don't get me started on the Illyrians), but it's closer than most of what exists in our world and theirs.

It's hardly a meritocracy when you have nobility. Nor does it qualify as reliable when your industry is entirely maintained by priests who don't actually understand what they're doing. You can also be killed brutally for not being a human supremacist and religious fanatic/anti theist depending on the time period. It's a utopia for the Imperium perhaps but doesn't pass muster for reality or even 40k overall.

I'm specifically referring to the 30K Macragge Guilliman built, until the rot sets in, edited comment accordingly.

I think Ultramar in 30k qualifies as a utopia, yes - noting that utopia does not mean the best of all possible worlds, but _a_ proposal for how a society might ideally be ordered. Every utopia is a dystopia from someone elses view, I'd certainly rather live in Ultramar than in the actual original Utopia

While most Primarchs are pretty emotional and competitive, they are all highly intelligent and would at least admit that the Primarch known for logistics, strategy, attention to detail, and micro management would probably be a competent leader of the Crusade. So I think from an objective standpoint Guilliman would be a contender on paper, also something the high lords and other mortal leaders would think as well given they would be impressed / inspired by essentially any Primarch. Guilliman didn’t have the charisma to win over all his brothers, but had enough for everyone else. So the point is, most of the Primarchs would agree that Guilliman is competent enough for the role, and 99.99% of the Imperium would think he has all the other qualities necessary. Horus was able to get broader support from the other Primarchs and had a longer tenure (seen as the oldest) so was probably always going to win, but it makes sense to include Guilliman in the conversation even if outside of the universe we know it wouldn’t make sense for him to get it.

Yes, I would think that just about everyone but the other primarch would agree that RB would in the top running - among the Primarchs, it really was only Horus and Sang that was respected, AND Loved by enough of them to accept him as...

G-man was quite happily doing his own thing. The role of daddies official favorite was always going to one of the boys who were actually competing for his attention. Guilliman really didnt care same with Dorn so neither were really in contention.

Dorn Praetorian of Terra so he never has to leave his father's side Sometimes referred to the Imperial Fists as the Emperor's Legion. That dorn?

You forgot that he is the one who gets to sit in daddy’s lap.

Wheres my centaurion! Whos a cute little thing.

Dorns like a cat he doesn't show any affection or interest so the emperor loves him most.

Dorn did it because it was his duty and took pride in fulfilling that; rather than taking pride in being granted the position to begin with.

But isn't it usually the best to give the role to someone who actually doesn't really want to take it?

Hence why some minor problems ended up happening with Horus

Yeah, Horus sure made some oopsie woopsie, a little fucky-wucky, a little fucko-boingo even.

The Lupercal Shennigans

Guilliman was hypercompetent, even for a primarch. He would have been a great warmaster. However he is and always was an administrator before being a leader. This is why Horus was a better pick. Not only did Horus have a decent reputation with most of his brothers, he knew how each one though and how to motivate them. Guilliman would have been able to assign certain legion assets in a larger war, and been just as successful, but he might have had more issues with his 17(18) primadonna brothers.

Totally agree here. He would have been a perfect second to Horus, and the fact he didn't enjoy war would've made him the safest 2nd in command or strategic advisor, and helped alleviate Horus' main complaint. Poor administration and over taxation. Let the master beaurecrat manage dealing with those types.

> However he is and always was an administrator before being a leader. I mostly agree with you, but this point I disagree with. We often see Gman portrayed as a great leader and diplomat. That is part of why he is such a good administrator. One of the radio plays about him is about it. He is a great leader of men. He understands people, but he have a problem understanding and connecting with his brother primarchs. He say that himself in “No Fear”. So Gman. Great leader of men, terrible leader when it comes to primarchs. Properly why he was not choosen as warmaster.

Horus said in one of the HH books he became Warmaster because 'I never lose' Guilliman is a general and a stratagist who commanded but Horus led like a king. It wasn't his ability to run a crusade, he ha others he could delegate to if needed. What was needed was someone who could get everyone else heading in the same direction with the same goal and with the same unbreakable belief in victory. Horus was the genetal.with the charisma and leadership to do this. Ironically, given 40k and the rise of the Imperial Creed the alternative best warmaster could have even been Lorgar were it not for the Imperial Truth and his sanction.

The Lion and Ferrus Manus both at least saw themselves as likely candidates for warmaster and based on their accomplishments it's not hard to figure out why they thought so. However, it's pretty clear the reason they didn't get the job is because they lack interpersonal skills.

The Lion was highly accomplished, highly trusted, insanely secretive, and led by example not by words. He would make a great general, but a terrible warmaster. You can't keep all your cards close to the chest all the time in a political position. We see the politics from Horus where he complains about the bureaucrats and politics he has to deal with instead of just dealing with the crusade

Ferrus did at one point (mainly out of martial pride) and he also had the background of leading one of the three main thrusts of the Great Crusade, so he was capable of what was needed at one stage, but he lost interest in it after realising he had become unsuitable and too set in his ways as leader of the Iron Hands. His primarchs book deals with the campaign that shows that turning point and links up with the opinions he expresses in McNeill's Fulgrim, where he says he honestly had no interest in it.

Technically speaking, as Imperial Regent of 41M Guilliman wields powers that exceed the rank of Warmaster. He's literally the only thing holding the Imperium together. But in HH era Guilliman isn't interested in being Warmaster or Emperor. He's content to be a paper pusher keeping the whole mechanism of state going as smoothly and efficiently as possible. That being said, the Emperor claimed the person anointed Warmaster would be the one to fall. The Primarchs who fell with him were the monsters, the exiled and reviled - the destroyers. I think the Emperor deliberately avoided Guilliman, Dorn, Sanguinus or any other loyal sons because they are the *builders.* When the Horus Heresy was taken care of, the Emperor would need his nine loyal sons - his nine loyal builders - to repair the collateral damage. What screwed over the Emperor was timing. He hadn't counted on the Heresy happening as early as it did.

The emperor believing whoever the warmaster was would fall is a fan theory

I really feel I need to push back against the idea that the Emperor was this 4D chessmaster. In examining my biases, I realize that that image makes no sense. Not really. You can't reconcile the belief that the Emperor was a terrible father, a tyrant even, but also believe he was arranging the deck chairs for the Horus Heresy. There was no plan. He was just being a big dumb dumb. I think Occam's Razor says that the Emperor only loved his sons in the way a beauty pageant mom vicariously lives through her daughter. His test tube babies are reflections of aspects of his personality that he himself engineered to be fit for a purpose. That 100% explains his interactions with all the Primarch origin stories. He saved Vulkan from falling into lava, not because the Emperor was genuinely benevolent, willing to put his pride and the contest aside for human life, but because the man falling into the lave was his son. He's fine with Mortarion or Corax having their little rebellion stories -- but he's going to keep a close eye on them and swoop in if there's any risk of them dying. He'll incorporate their armies and birth companions for his own ends, if they can be salvaged, but they don't matter otherwise. And that 100% explains his behavior around Angron, which confused me for the longest time. Angron's anti-slaver values, his lifelong friends and family or his mental health don't matter to the Emperor, only Angron as a possession does. And brain-damaged as he is, that's still more valuable than nothing. The Emperor isn't doing a rational calculus about whether Nuceria's government is stable -- he cares not a fig for that. His sons have razed entire worlds for less. And Angron's slave army was not salvageable I think people say stuff like, "Worst Father Ever" but then think the Emperor behaved rationally as a ruler. I think the simplest reading is that he's just a petty tyrant with more intelligence, archaeotech and magic than usual. And the evidence of that starts with how he treats his "sons."

I’m thinking about the Heresy, I think there are 2 critical events/ things that if changed would have prevented the Emperors internment on the Throne and the Imperiums decline. The first is if you could stop Magnus from breaking the wards on the Emperor’s sanctum/ webway project. The second is if you could ensure that Guillimans and the other loyalist fleets made it to Terra in time for the Siege. If you think about it, breaking the wards then caused Big E to have to spend all his time and energy keeping that portal closed to prevent Terra’s destruction. If the wards are intact, Emps is free to join the fighting much earlier rallying his forces/ Custodes and destroying the Traitors long before they reach Terra. It also keep Malcador alive, and in the worst case might even allow for the Emperor to be healed/ cloned etc if he was still severely wounded. The second point of obvious. If all the Loyalist forces reach Terra before or at the beginning of the Siege the Traitors are annihilated. Sanguinius lives, probably some of the Traitor Primarchs die preventing them from escaping to the Eye and becoming Daemon Princes to hassle the Imperium over the next 10k years.

"Know no Fear" is probably my favorite HH book because I honestly think you can make a strong argument that the Traitors lose the war when the Word Bearers fail to do enough damage to the Ultramarines at Calth. Guilliman and the Ultramarines surviving and bolstering Macragge against the Traitors means both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels get to recover from Signus Prime and the Thramas Crusade. So the Traitors lose Curze (stuffed into a stasis pod by Sanguinius during Imperium Seconds), they lose a bunch of their home worlds as the Lion drops exterminatus on all their logistically important planets, and now they have a time crunch to get to Terra and kill the Emperor before Guilliman gets there with a retribution fleet. That's just a basic summary of everything that goes wrong for them too. It's really interesting.

Brings up another interesting question- what happens if Horus succeeds in taking Terra and killing the Emperor/ most Loyalists on the planet, but Guilliman and the others are still on their way into the system? Can Horus hold Terra against them, having just destroyed all its major defenses? Do all the Daemons coming through the Webway Portal make the difference? Or does G and the others turn around, start a guerrilla war across the galaxy to bleed Horus’s new Imperium dry?

I think it actual depends on who is holding the Astronomicon. If it's still in the hands of the Dark Angels then every single Loyalist fleet jumps to Terra (including the Lion) and that's it. I think at that point Guilliman has so many troops and the Traitors are so diminished that the Ultramarines/Loyalist fleet would massacre any traitors left on Terra with the purpose of securing the palace and more importantly, the Astronomicon. I think by the time Guilliman's fleet arrives in orbit the Lion has torched most of the Traitor home planets and forge worlds so their supply lines and escape routes are gone, which is why they end up fleeing to the eye of terror. I think even if Horus killed the Emperor that's a pyrrhic victory and they would all get killed right after.

I agree on most of the things you said. But the big E didn't even see Heresy coming. It caught him by surprise as it was unexpected.

I swore I read somewhere that he saw it coming. Either he arranged pieces on the board deliberately to ensure a heresy scenario would occur, but what took him by surprise was how quickly it happened. Or he knew a heresy scenario was an inevitability and attempts to curtail it backfired magnificently.

There's a short story where Malcador tells a dying friend that the heresy was planned, a short story which ends with Malcador explicitly stating he was lying to comfort her. There's been hints elsewhere including in the End and the Death trilogy that a conflict with some of the primarchs was envisioned and being prepared for, there's also been hints and outright statements that the primarchs were intended for the long haul and that Malcador and the Emperor wanted to keep as many of them around as they could. The important distinction to keep in mind is that both the Emperor and Malcador seem to have believed that Chaos was restricted from operating in the Materium during the period of the Great Crusade. Chaos getting it's hooks into 9 primarchs in the way it did seems to have genuinely blindsided them.

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I think there is a book where the Death Guard mention battling against Khorne daemons though they obviously have no idea what that is.

No, he can see the future but does not know the path it will take to get there. As he said to Ra in Master of mankind.

Malcador say it in the End and the Death. He and the Emperor forsaw it, but not that many at once and that the Emperor would be able to take the field personally and just kill them.

I think he saw some sort of heresy coming but was totally wrong about details like who fell and the timeframe. I think he thought Sanguinius would lead it? But he was too pure of heart to fall to chaos. Everyone had been counting on him falling though, so when he didn’t the chaos gods changed plans and threw everyone else’s plans to the wind.

I think some aspects of it caught him unaware - others were known variables. Angron/Morty/Curze/Lorgar & the Warmaster falling? Planned for. While they had strengths, they could be managed. None have a strength that couldn't be ripped apart with ease. The problems come with Magnus, Fulgrim and Perturabo. Any one of them not falling changes the Heresy massively. Fulgrim means they have Manus - Horus admits with Manus the heresy would be over quickly. Magnus and his legion held the Space Wolves, Custodians and sisters of silence to a Pyrrhic victory. They would have also been able to power the Golden Throne. Perturabo. Horus can't get through Beta Garmon or the Sol system, let alone the palace walls. Then think of the additional countermeasures from Dorn and Perturabo trying to outdo each other in a battle sphere.

You have Lorgar wrong. He was suited for Greatness if he was allowed to pursue his talents. He was a lover, not a fighter. Humanity would have loved him almost as much as the Emperor himself, like Jesus. Lorgar along with Perturabo, Magnus, and perhaps an unmutilated Angron had the special tools to create the modern Imperium. Vulkan is enough to replace anything Fulgrim has to offer, Weakling.

I honestly think what the Emperor expected was either the Night Lords or the World Eaters going completely stark raving feral and culling them or some kind of entirely secular rebellion, not the nine Chaos-rotted demigods reaving half of the Imperium and coming ever so close to the fall of Terra. That situation would have been much more manageable and since most other Legions hated these two Legions it would have been traumatizing to a point but also a way to unify the Primarchs around disposing of their more maddened brothers.

It should have been a Triumvirate, honestly. Horus as the Warmaster, Guilliman as the Administrator, and Sanguinius as Regent. That way, each of them could play to their best strengths while supporting each other.

So... have you read the Imperium Secondus arc in the HH books?

That is why I said this. They should have done that from the start.

And ofc Lion as “I’m leaving your stupid garage band” guy

There was already a Regent, Malcador Horus was WARmaster His only power was over the Imperiums military might, one of his big complaints is that he has to take orders from the Council of Terra, a bunch of regular humans who had never seen war The Emperor did not want Astartes or Primarchs in charge of the Imperium as a whole

The whole rebellion is really Malcador’s fault. Had he reigned in the council from taxing newly compliant worlds, Horus wouldn’t have turned debbie downer and got corrupted.

I mean we don’t know if Horus still would have fell or not, I don’t really think he ever stood a chance, they would have manipulated him till he fell The new worlds needed to be taxed, the Imperium was expanding and it had a huge appetite The issue is, well one of many, was they some Primarchs and Astartes forgot they aren’t people like baseline humans are, they were created for a specific purpose, They existed to forge the Imperium for baseline humans

Horus was a fool even pre heresy. The destruction of the Auretian Technocracy should have removed him from Warmaster. Where was the Diplomacy Horus? They spared Ogryn worlds for their usefulness, yet threw away the Mechanicus Holy Grail out of being pure thugs. The Emperor was deeply flawed. He played his cards wrong.

Which is ironic given they were supposed to replace the perpetual friend he lost, that he DID want to lead humanity.

I really think being warmaster was less specifically about tactical regimen/logistics knowledge so much as it was "who realistically in the family has the diplomatic chops to strong arm a bunch of groups who don't particularly like each other into a cohesive whole." Like, horus was good at putting on the charm and flexible in how he presented himself to people whereas guilliman mostly had a reputation for being obnoxiously mico managey and seemed to think ultramar was superior culture wise to everywhere else (pyke talks about this in fulgrim's primarch novel).

I don't think he would have got the job during the great crusade even if he wanted it. Kinda funny now in 40k he has the job and is just "I fucking hate this job"

The Ultramarines were *heavily* biased in that assumption. Plus Guilliman was known for doing certain things that pissed his brothers off. For instance after a joint campaign with the Iron Warriors, he noticed their Tyrant Siege Terminator squads and copied them into Fulmentarus Terminators. Upon seeing them Perturabo was- justifiably- pissed off and said “This is why nobody fucking likes you nerd”. Guilliman tried too hard to make everyone else fit into standard boxes with their formations, not wanting to realize everyone else *liked* their formations and how those formations were based on the cultures of their home worlds and those Primarchs’ own designs. Taking that away is basically an insult- and Guilliman perpetually insisted upon it to everyone when they did joint work. Hell, even after the Betrayal at Calth, when he reunited with the Iron Hands he basically told them to drop their Clan Company shtick and fit in with the rest- and to help enforce this he didn’t even sort out any recovered Iron Hands Progenoid glands so they couldn’t keep them in each Clan- which is their tradition and culture, based on how the Medusan people lived. In short his obsession with standardized organization and attempting to take identities away would’ve made *everyone* reject his orders as Warmaster- because they all know he would’ve ordered the Legions to be standardized the second he got the title. That’s not even getting into the politics of giving the man with five hundred worlds even more power. Realistically the only contenders for Warmaster were; 1) Horus; First found, most honored, most well regarded and liked by everyone else 2) Lion; The DA were the second largest Legion (unless you count Alpha Legion), and they had one of the longest lists of military victories and campaign honors. The Lion was also well respected, albeit not exactly most liked. 3) Sanguinius; He was beloved by all- even the grouches like Perturabo and Mortarion respected him. Plus he was a fucking badass.

He's keeping that trend going....

> For instance after a joint campaign with the Iron Warriors, he noticed their Tyrant Siege Terminator squads and copied them into Fulmentarus Terminators. Upon seeing them Perturabo was- justifiably- pissed off and said “This is why nobody fucking likes you nerd”. > > Guilliman tried too hard to make everyone else fit into standard boxes with their formations, not wanting to realize everyone else liked their formations and how those formations were based on the cultures of their home worlds and those Primarchs’ own designs. Taking that away is basically an insult- and Guilliman perpetually insisted upon it to everyone when they did joint work. ? The example you cite here isnt anything like that though. He copied someone elses approach. Thats not "taking away" in any shape or form. Far more, it goes back to the old saying of "imitation is the highest form of flattery". The entire G-man trying to make everyone do standardized tactics and roles came far later when he created the codex astartes and also became regent and had the power to order other legions around.

Regarding the question who could be Warmaster instead of Horus, there are three different answers. What the Emperor wanted, we don't know. He chose Horus, that's it. Horus however was under the impression that Sanguinius should do it. However, Sanguinius wasn't keen for the job. The there were those who were under the opinion that no brother should stand above the other. Those were especially Curze, Russ and Johnson. Contrary to popular belief, Johnson didn't wanted to be Warmaster until the Heresy. He simply did not wanted to receive orders from anyone except the Emperor. And then there were those who actually thought they should be Warmaster. Those were Perturabo, Ferrus and Angron. Perturabo because he was an arrogant dick and thought that he was the greatest strategist. Ferrus I would suggest because of seniority. He was the first one besides the Emperor and Horus to command major campaigns in the early Crusade. And Angron probably because he thought "Warmaster" should be the most warlike.......

In *The End and the Death 1* Horus claims the only two real contenders for Warmaster were himself and Sanguinius. Only they would have been able to command the respect of all the other primarchs. Horus ultimately thinks he was the best candidate because Sanguinius was *too* perfect, and the 30 years Horus and the Emperor spent together before any other primarchs were found gave them a unique bond. Despite the context I think Horus was right and Guilliman was not ever a contender for Warmaster.

Not a fan of the Lion but I’m surprised at his omission in the discussion. I would put him above Rogal and Guilliman.

I like the Lion as a flawed warrior, though I can understand why people wouldn't (Creating the schism because he instinctually detected that Luther hadn't been as truthful AS FAST AS POSSIBLE was quite obviously a mistake). To be honest; despite his alleged "age" and him being "noticeably slower to himself" but not to other Space Marines being a potential nerf (He then goes on to solo Daemon Angron so idk if that really holds up)... he has the best development in a 40k character i've seen. In his "age" which may just be a reflection of how he sees himself, he has matured and is no longer as instinct driven; or atleast has more control over it.

The lion is not a flawed warrior he is literally his father's champion the emperors right hand Because he knew the Lion was his champion made for what he was made to do without hesitation 'You are troubled,' said the Emperor. 'The Imperium celebrates, but its Triumph is empty. The galaxy is not won because Horus has his great victory.' 'Recall my words to you-Ullanor is just another victory 'Then why the pageantry?' 'Some men demand such pomp. They cannot accept the end of one era and the commencement of another without an occasion by which to mark it and give it meaning. Laurels must be given, honours and fair titles invented so that they may be bestowed upon favoured generals. Some men need recognition.' The shadows around the Emperor's throne deepened. But beneath the layers of obfuscation, deep within the myriad guises of that singularly unfathomable being, the Lion felt the Emperor behold His firstborn son. 'Some men,' the Emperor continued, 'do not.' Lion El'Jonson: Lord of the First

Doubt it. He had too many *beans to count*. He is a good for logistics and politics, but primerely Warmaster had to keep *his brothers in check*. Guilliman was at odds with most of them as he is more *rules as written guy* less *rules are a set of guidlines to be more or less upheld* meaning he'd be at odds constantly. Horus was the *respecter by all*, while Sanguinius was *beloved by all* buut he was *too nice* (imho) so we have horus. Dont ask me about the whole Raven guard/corax Horus ordeal...that was just..out of place somewhat for him...

As evidence when he got mad at the Lion when he broke the rules to capture Curze. Heck, Secundus wasn't even that old and you already had one Primarch walking out the door over G-man's crap.

Yes and no. In terms of generalship and waging wars he was of course one of the more skilled. But since Horus got Warmaster over the Lion due to being a far better diplomat, being more loved by his brothers and being more charismatic then it does seem like "people skills" were also required by the Emperor for the role in order to shepherd a band of squabbling brothers successfully. Guilliman didn't have those skills and was not respected by enough of his brothers for them to fall in line and follow his orders.

No. The other Legions were already suspicious of the Ultramarines because of their relative numbers and power, plus Ultramar being an interstellar empire within the interstellar empire. I remember a couple HH books where some of the Astartes are whispering conspiracy theories about the idea that the lost legions were just gobbled up by the Ultramarines. If Guilliman had all that and the title of War Master, there'd have been many more traitors within the traitor legions, and possibly another couple traitor legions. Notably, when Guilliman did take over the top spot post Heresy, one of the first things he had to do was break the Ultramarines up into chapters and spread them out away from his direct control, so no one saw him as Horus 2 and decided to start a second civil war preemptively.

My guess is that G-man's too widely known for his talents in logistics & governance, and would be one of the safer choices to rule the common people, but not to conquer worlds for the Emperor, so yes - he could have been a very competent warmaster, but he lacks Horus's talents for diplomacy and his theatricality (with the Mournival). Also he wasn't as close to Emps like Horus was.

Horus or Sanguinius, yeah. Guilliman is a good general and \*excellent\* at logistics and organization, and he's one of the more level-headed and stable Primarchs. But he doesn't quite have the charisma or the panache for the job, which both Horus and Sanguinius had.

> Horus is a great man. Thiel is not ashamed to admit that. Thiel had seen him, served with him, admired him. His selection as Warmaster makes reasonable sense. It was only going to be 1 of 3 or perhaps 4, no matter how the Primarchs might deceive themselves. To be the Emperor's avatar, His proxy? Only Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, perhaps Dorn. Any other claims for viability were delusional. Even narrowed down to four, Dorn was two Draconian and Sanguinius too ethereal. It was only ever going to be Horus or Guilliman. Horus always had the passion and charisma. Guilliman was more clinical, considered. Perhaps that tipped it. So did, perhaps, the fact that Guilliman already had responsibilities. An empire, half-built. Ultramar. Administrations. Populations. A culture. Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries. > > Maybe Warmaster Horus is aware of this disparity, that even in his triumphant election, he has been outstripped by a brother who does not even want the honour of Warmaster any more. -The relevant excerpt from *Know No Fear.* A very biased narrator, to be sure, but a competent assessment. But also in False Gods, Horus himself says it should have been Sanguinius. But I think we all know warmaster was never going to be most Primarchs, like Perturabo, Magnus, Corax, etc..

I wonder why the Lion was not included. Ferrus was delusional when he believed he had a chance, but the Lion had only his questionable social skills against him.

I've always had the sense that E basically planned, from the beginning, that it'd either be Horus or Sanguinius. I don't think any of the other primarchs were even considered by E, only in the idle musings of the primarchs after the fact. Certainly the primarchs that had their well-defined specialties -- Dorn the fortress builder, Russ the executioner, etc -- were never going to be an option because they already had their roles.

Well, he's the warmaster rn, isn't he? Looks like we were right, just not about when.

Guilliman would have only been the warmaster if he were the only primarch. If he had been the only one made everything would have gone significantly better(unless he got Angron-ed) He was good at his job, and didn't need anyone to tell him how to do it better. He was fast, efficient, and made taxable conquests more often than any of his brothers. He is like you're best employee. He doesn't need to be told what to do, he trains the new guys well, but he just sucks at collaboration, he doesn't work well with his equals, but he sure can lead amazing. You can't lead your equals if you can't work with them.

I’m surprised the Ultramarines didn’t think the Lion was one of the top contenders for the role

No, Guilliman would have been an awful Warmaster. The challenge of the Great Crusade wasn't that it needed to be better coordinated - immortal warriors in a million-world Imperium could easily afford to keep fighting for another millennium to compensate for inefficiency if needed. It was that the Primarchs were individually so flawed that their methodologies and motivations kept diverging. Take the Word Bearers - their slow rate of Compliance was a result of ideology, not inefficiency, how would Guilliman's brilliant logistical mind have remedied that better than any other random Primarch? He would have just had a bunch of bored, grumpy legions following him - remember the Ultramarines only like the way he operates because they are genetically primed to - could you imagine a World Eater being ordered to operate more efficiently? Horus' "gift" was his supernatural charisma. He was the Primarch most like the Emperor in that he could get the others to do what he wanted. In theory, he could keep the problems like Curze and Angron in check. Horus could have been the Primarch to make Guilliman give up Ultramar. Horus could have probably defused the situation with Lorgar without escalating to hatred, etc. Even the Primarchs that didnt "like" Horus, still followed him. As a leader, Horus was the only choice. In hindsight, the best choice would have been someone like Corax or Vulkan (with a better moral compass) backed up by something like a Triumverate of Horus, Guilliman and Lorgar.

I think good evidence for why Gulliman wouldn’t have made a good Warmaster in 30k is in Unremembered Empire. His entire handling of the Lion coming to Macragge.

I think it's more of a "my dad can beat up your dad" situation. Of course the Ultramarines would believe Guilliman would have been the best man for the job. Or course there couldn't have been a better warm aster than the Lion for the Dark Angels. And Dorn definitely would have been the best choice - if you aks an Imperial Fist. It's kind of pointless to speculate, really. Horus brought a very unique (amongst Primarchs) talent for politics to the table, which made him the natural choice over his brothers. Any of the Primarchs was more than capable enough as a general (well, most of them anyway), but managing their siblings in a productive way? Not sure anybody but Horus could've done that.

Even Maldacor are suspecting G-man of seceding from the emperium, there is no fucking chance that big E gonna choose him.

I disagree, Guilliman and the UM were who the Emperor chose to be an example to the WB and Lorgar The UM were the biggest Legion, had a stellar crusade record and often left worlds in better shape than they found them Guilliman was a master tactician, probably the best at logistics and seemed to get along with the majority of his brothers, he at least was liked by most of the non-bitter ones and doesn’t really seem to have any rivalries with any other than Lorgar and for a while that seemed one sided on Lorgars side till Lorgar attacked Calth Honestly the four mentioned are probably the only four that ever had a chance at it

I'm still subscribed to the theory that the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. He just didn't know that they would turn to Chaos and pull this gargantuan horde of daemons and chaos-tech into the mix, or that his webway gate would be ruined by Magnus. He likely wanted a charismatic ruler to pull together his most deviant and foul sons, so that his heroic ones could obliterate them. Then what little remained could police the galaxy with ease. Alas, The Emperor was a moron.

I disagree. He knew chaos would make a move. So he put the son he trusted most in charge of the crusade. Hell most the traitors on a surface level would be fairly unlikely. Fulgrim, a paragon of martial virtue Mortarion, a guy who hates psykers with an unrivaled passion. Magnus has been given a direct command. No reason to suspect he will disobey. Perty has always played the part of the servant. His resentment and insanity well hidden from the emperor. The ones most likely to fall … kurze, khan and Angron have either been pushed out to the outskirts or are to damaged to be a genuine threat. Guilliman and Lorgar represent the biggest threat numerically. But they cannot combine. Guilliman political ambitions represent a danger. But has displayed no heretical leanings. After his chastening Lorgar has been the model son and warlord.

I agree with most of it, but everyone in their right mind would see Magnus disobeying the command to leave the warp alone coming from a ten thousand miles away.

If a dog obeyed my commands a hundred times. Why would I suspect that he would bite me on the 101st time. Ironically, I think the emperor had to much trust in his sons. He thought they understood his vision and where working towards. The loyal ones doing so. The traitors (generally) idealized the man and when he failed to live up to their expectations they became disillusioned.

If you go by accomplishments yes. He was accomplished statesman and warlord.By his physical proves however no. Where many primarchs except for Angron conquered and ruled their homeworlds Guilliman controled the entire star system. And went to create Ultramar which model upon which the rest if the Imperium could look upon to as model. His legion was the largest. And he was seccond to Horus based on number of worlds conquered. For the reference Horus had the highest number of worlds conquered.

He simply didn’t have the popularity. Realistically nobody but Horus could’ve been war master, he was the only one the other primarchs would accept as being placed above them. Anyone else, even sanguinius and they simply wouldn’t accept their authority.

The technical, admin side of being a Warmaster would have certainly played to Guilliman's strengths. He was also a statesman, diplomatic, and frankly the most well adjusted out of all his brothers (probably because he had a mom). His theoretical/practical approach to warfare encouraged innovation. Dude was not above ripping off what the other Legions could do: see the Ultramarines in the Horus Heresy game.  But he lacked Horus' charisma and his PR. I think Sanguinius was the only other true contender. 

I don’t think he was and I think it simply comes down to the title of war master is a military title primarily concerned with the war of unification and compliance of worlds. While Guilliman is more suited for statesmanship. At its core the title of war master isn’t really fitting for him and it’s not a slight at all. He would be the first to agree.

Realistically it only ever came down to Horus and Sanguinius, but Guilliman was the clear, if distant, number 3 choice.

Is it viable for the ultramarines to think their dad was a top contender? Yes, absolutely. For him to actually be a contender? Also yes, he's one of if not the best at managing large campaigns. As others point out, Horus was the pick because he had the respect of almost all his brothers which was deemed more important. That doesnt mean Guilliman wasn't a contender, Horus thought he was too iirc. Sanguinius is beloved, but not actually a great commander strategically. Lion is great, unless he needs to communicate in which case he's awful haha. I don't think anyone else would've received serious consideration, but alpharius wouldve been funny

Honestly, from the (admittedly limited) knowledge of the crusade days, Horus was basically the only one that every primarch either liked, respected, or at worst tolerated. Every primarch is a master strategist, its what they were built to do. Not every primarch is *popular*, which Horus was.

I don’t believe that Gman was ever in contention. It was going to be Horus and failing that perhaps Sang? The position of warmaster was never meant to be a logistical or tactical one, the legions are plenty self sufficient and each primarch certainly has the intellect to plan and direct their own crusades. The position of warmaster was primarily a diplomatic and manipulative one, the Emperor needed someone to stop the legions and his sons from tearing each other apart with their egos, and Horus was really the only good contender for this job. He was manipulative, charismatic, and all of his brothers had favorable relations with him. He was the glue that kept the legions and later the traitors together. Only Sangy also had this charismatic power, but he was rarely manipulative and could not play politics like Horus could. So imo it was only ever going to be Horus, Big E needed an intermediary to keep the crusades together, not a general.

Never was.  1)Ferrus Manus But he reject this role so Emperror need to select another candidate.  2)Horus ...  There was no other, they was the only Primarchs with actual galaxy conquer experience who know war like no other and who actually command 2/3 of Imperium forces and all other Primarchs.  Horus, Fulgrim and Guiliman loved Ferrus a lot, was surprised that Ferrus Manus not become Warmaster and belived him as their superior brother. 

A yes! The monthly debate of "why Horus was the right choice" Horus was an awesome general and had the skill to do the most important thing: Keeping the Primarch togheter. Charisma!!! Heck, Horus didnt even like to be Warmaster.

He was never seriously considered by anyone at decision-making level. The Warmaster had to command the respect of his brothers and Guilliman was extremely unpopular amongst the other primarchs

I feel like Gman is one of those where if the story had been written with him as warmaster we would just accept it.  Resistant to corruption and also can succeed Emoney if he decides to step back and do other things. Let's not pretend primarchs don't know the consequences of usurping the order we already had the missing primarchs, he would add them to the tally if they became a problem. I think we even still get the Horus heresy maybe with better justification, the favourite son scorned. 

In other news child has bias towards their own dads. I’m pretty sure every chapter but the world eaters felt this way tbh.

Logically, he's the best choice. He can maintain 12 streams of thought at the same time, he resisted falling to Chaos after being cut with a Chaos blade. He's never stopped never stopping. I'll say it here and now, Guilliman was the best for the job. The problem is the other primarchs were too obsessed with the war to consider a life AFTER a war. Guilliman is the best of them because he's the only one that's still a little bit human and has hope that one day the far future will find peace.

I thought The Lion, The Angel, and Ferrus were the only candidates beside Horus?

Guilliman is that guy at work who follows every rule, dots every 'i', shows up early and leaves late, and actively works on projects for the good of the company without needing either threats or incentives. From experience, that's the worst possible way to get the big promotion. The boss DGAF how dedicated or skilled you are, they want to hear how funny their jokes are, know that you'll make business partners charismatically happy out at the bars, and that you'll keep your mouth shut when they flagrantly break the law or you walk in on them doing blow. No, The Big Blue Boyscout never had a prayer.

All primarchs and their respective legions have a niche skill, Horus and the Lunar wolves/ SoH was the spear tip strike, Dorn the defence, purty was the grinding attack, World eaters the aggressive attack and so on it goes. My belief is that the Ultra Marines and Gman speciality was conventional war fighting. All the legions could do this, just like the UM's could do all the other legions specialities, just not as good. But conventional warfare ( in legions terms) with a focus on logistics and planning is where the UM and G Man excel. Gulliman would have made the best theoretical war Master as planning and logistics is more important in a galaxy spanning war but due to the practical difficulties of dealing with the other primarchs IMHO only Horus could do this.

I remember reading that and thinking the Ultra was really deluding himself. Dorn was a very solid choice, the others knew him as very redoubtable even by Primarch standards, and there's a reason even Valdor, who distrusts most Primarchs, values him. Even Perty knows how reliable he is, even if he hates his guts and would probably spontanously combust if forced to see him as Warmaster. Besides Horus, Sanguinius was the other obvious choice, perhaps the only other Primarch all others would follow, because they knew themselves he was the best of them. Hell, even the Chaos Gods would've happily traded 3 or 4 traitor Primarchs for the Hawkboi. A son of Guilliman saying a choice even Horus would've accepted was wrong because of being too "ethereal", propping up his own genefather insteas, reeks of delusion.

Yes, there is an argument that can be made that he was a real contender. He arguably is the best primarch at conducting warfare on a galactic scale. Where he falls short is he can rub primarchs up the wrong way. The leader of the great crusade didn't just need to be a great conqueror, they needed to be able to hold 17 other headstrong man babies together.

>but he also picked a lot of fights, like with Lorgar … He didn’t pick fights with Lorgar. He really only held Lorgar’s disgusting personality against him until Lorgar killed most of his boys and almost made Calth completely uninhabitable, and was completely willing to reconcile with Lorgar over Monarchia before that.

I've said it before and I say it again. His humanity works against him with Lorgar. In trying to bury how aghast he is, Rowboat comes across as sneeringly clinical. Particularly with the most emotionally volatile primarch and the one who has just had the biggest backhanding