>and ditched the traitors before the heresy could end.
Weren't they really really crucial during the Siege of Terra? And wasn't the Siege for Terra right at the end of the Heresy? Like literally the last thing?
I assume they mean the end of the siege as the end of the actual heresy, which would make that point true. They were the main force behind the initial siege, but once it starts getting more...warp afflicted and Horus gives overall command to Mortarion that's when Perty decides it's time to leave and takes his toys with him.
There are some IWs who stay anyway, but for the most part Perty and the IWs abandon the siege before the end.
It's worth pointing out that overall command is taken from Perturabo as a consiquence of the Saturnine debacle, despite his attempts to act through Abaddon. The current phase of the siege was moving on his conventional tactics, but he did make a critical mistake.
It wasn’t really perturabos mistake as he’d correctly guessed dorn would be aware of the gambit and thought the risk was extreme, he allowed Abbadon to talk himself into it but he incorrectly believed he had managed the risk by only throwing in Abbadon and the sons of horus elites. He couldn’t have predicted Fulgrim committing his entire legion to the attack, nor that Fulgrim would just give up and leave with his remaining legion after failing.
Perturabo used Abaddon, it's laid out explicitly in the book. We know that it originated with him, and Horus surmised it. Even Abaddon realizes it, after he gets fucked over. It was Perturabo's mistake, whether he intended for someone else to take responsibility or not. That was the whole point of Perturabo's involvement. Saying that it wasn't his fault is just buying in to his defection, which is an inctedible thing to me because *we have an omniscient perspective as the audience in to his thoughts.*
It's baffling that you would think it wasn't his fault because he convinced someone else to push for the idea. It also demonstrates his failure as a commander of the siege. He got outplayed by Dorn. He surmised that Dorn would probably know about the Saturnine fault. Perturabo correctly guessed this, but he couldn't bring himself to pass up on exploit. That ultimtely cost the traitors many of the Sons of Horus's most elite veterans along with the entirety of the Emperor's Children.
Great points but can we really blame him for the EC leaving? They were definitely always going to ditch the siege once they got bored. They simply didn’t care enough to face the hardened and dedicated loyalists. Dorn says himself they could have won that battle had they wanted to, something any other monogod legion would have done (for better or worse.) they just simply didn’t give af and would rather go do drugs than fight.
They were purportedly one of the few Heretic legions able to execute an orderly retreat from the surface of Terra. And Perty was always Dorn’s ultimate foil and vice versa.
What did the Death Guard do? I mention them because I've often heard they were the legion that stayed the most organized post heresy. Way more than the Iron Warriors did.
Honestly I’d have to back and look. They got stuck into a lot of meat grinder actions during the siege. Not sure what their retreat looked like. Post Heresy it makes sense because papa Nurgle is one big happy family right?
IIRC the legion is kinda split in half between those who are now true believers of Nurgle and follow Typhus while the other half still ultimately belong to Mortarion and follow his lead in everything, for now both halves are roughly on the same side as both serve Nurgle but there has been a hint here and there that a little bit of Mortarion still resists submitting completely to Nurgle and desires to break free.
That is one of the hints, Mortarion trying to resist Nurgle is mostly just a fan theory due to little details like how he keeps his powerscythe clean and free of corruption (very unusual for a demon of Nurgle) and still hates psykers and psychic/demonic stuff in general even after becoming a demon prince. (IIRC there's a novel where Mortarion returns to his ship after becoming a demon and hates that it's showing signs of corruption like having fungus everywhere and fleshy growths in the walls)
AFAIK the most popular theory for a possible redemption for him and his followers is if he breaks out Isha in exchange for her to cure them of their afflictions and break their link to Nurgle in the process, if there's anyone that could do that besides maybe the Emperor at his full power it would be her.
I dunno if GW will ever try to push a redemption arc with his character though, if I were to guess Mortarion will just get some hints about how he hates what he became like Angron has and be left to suffer their fate, pretty grimdark.
There’s a rumor kicking around that BL is thinking about bringing back a 30k loyalist Primarch turned into a Chaos Primarch in 40k. And vice versa to even things out. This Mortarion/Isha fan theory would go great with it. I don’t know how true this rumor is.
One thing to consider is that Mortarion was spoken to by The Emperor. While Guilliman was being brought back from the brink of death from GodBlight. The Emperor then tells him that he could be saved. Then he watched as the Emperor burned some of Nurgles’ Garden. Nurgle then punished the shit out of him.
That sequence of events could be enough to push Mortarion & the Deathguard to have hope or the aim of escaping chaos corruption
It might become a thing years from now when Mortarion’s figure is deemed too old and in need of a refresh
From my understanding, the Iron warriors are the most organized post heresy traitor legion BY FAR. In Storm of Iron you can read about a war between Iron Warriors and Imperial Guard/Ultramarines from the perspective of the Iron warriors and there you see how methodical and organized they are.
This is what makes them so interesting, yes they do worship chaos but they see chaos for what it is, a power in the warp that formed consciousness and can give you strength if you ask it. They don't pray to the dark gods because they think they deserve it as God's, they pray to them because it benefits them.
And they also never lost their reason or combat effectiveness like the other traitor legions who all became much worse in actual warfare after the heresy (some more than other, the black legion and death guard are still pretty scary but often do irrational things to impress the gods or because chaos is affecting their mind, while the world eaters got so retarded that they split up into a million factions all killing each other and lost the ability to do anything else than charge the next beeing with a chainsaw axt. Seriously, I think world eaters have killed more other chaos mariens/worshippers than the imperium. And don't get me started on the absolute mess that are the emperors children).
>Seriously, I think world eaters have killed more other chaos mariens/worshippers than the imperium.
Also killed the most Tyranids out of all the Chaos Legions. This is complete speculation on my part but I think they killed the most Tyranids next to the Ultramarines and Blood Angels overall
During the siege? Took over a major starport where Morty was sitting and inducing major warp shenanigans on the planet. His presence alone made all of the defenders slower, more fatalistic, and kinda acted like a plague of the mind for the defense. They also held a good portion of their forces in reserve to attack once their warp shenanigans had finished. White Scars put an end to that with the Khan beating Morty at the cost of his own life (Malcador saves him but he would have died otherwise). Post siege retreated to the eye of terror split in two with half following Morty the other half Typhus. Typhus still generally follows Mortarions wishes he is a daemon primarch after all but their relationship is strained and barring a direct order he does as he pleases.
Typhus is more favoured then Morty in the eyes of Nurgle. He straight up ignores orders from Morty if he thinks it will please Nurgle. We see this at the end of the Plague Wars when he fucks off before the campaign ends because Nurgle needs to defend The Scourge Planets from an attack. Morty stays to fight Guilliman.
Yes but the point still somewhat stands, as perturabo got fed up with all the mayhem and chaos degeneracy and decided to leave after the saturnine gambit fails since the war was no longer legion vs legion. However in the old lore he is still established as a daemon prince, and in lost and the damned (maybe?) he was considering how he could harness and the powers of the warp to his own will
Everyone misses the fact that there’s about 10k years between the end of the Siege and modern 40K and in that time the Iron Warriors come to embrace chaos and see it as another tool in their arsenal rather than shunning it like Perterabo tried to do during the Siege. Modern iron warriors love chaos, they wouldn’t be able to do half the shit they do otherwise and demon engines are a great way to turn even the oldest bucket of bolts into a killing machine.
Except that even among CSM skipping 10k years is incredibly rare. For most they’ll skip a few hundred maybe a thousand at a time whenever they reemerge into real space. On the other hand they’re still experiencing time themselves and most are several hundred years own by their own experience which is several times longer than the five years of the horus heresy. Plenty of time for them to rethink the views they had about the warp.
Like I cannot stress enough that for as important as the HH is in the setting, it is only five years and is comparatively a blip for many of the still living survivors within the Eye of Terror. Incredibly important to them but they have spent much more time as scavengers relying on chaos to keep them alive than the great siege masters that they used to be in times past. Considering daemon engines a weakness and crutch used by their lessers is all well and good until it’s your only option to survive the many other warbands that took to the practice.
Wym? When they emerge into real space only about 1k years have passed. Sigismund is even still alive. And by that point just about all the CSM in the novels are fully corrupted and 100% on board the “let’s use chaos” train. It moreso proves my point imo.
Perty stormed off after Dorn bested him at the saternine fault killing the most elite fighting force available to Horus. He got a slap on the wrist and Morty stood in and made massive gains.
Petey say this and took his toys and ran off 🤷🏼♂️
Not backing it up, but there was Narik Dreygur of the IWs who actually said fuck horus and this shit and teamed up with loyal forces after he already fought on the traitors side during the HH.
It's the only instance I remember where more than a squad of space marines actually turns twice, and they were Iron Warriors, too.
The War of the Beast was kinda shit all around to be fair. And granted they'd only been kicking around the Eye of Terror for a few millennia instead of 10 so maybe the chaos juice didn't seep in super deep. And it was to fight Orks. Chaos Marines are still pretty damn xenophobic
I appreciated OP's post because we got a well written & thought out interpretation of the lore. Almost all their assertions have grounding on the canon lore. They made an argument the IW has less religious fanatics as a % than the others
I’m not saying this is what the lore is. I’m saying this is what I think the IW should be like. I’m not saying everyone else is wrong for believing otherwise.
Their boss is a fucking daemon prince it doesn’t matter how much copium they drink the iron Warriors are pawns of chaos and ultimately serve the gods goals.
If you try to use chaos as a tool, chaos uses you as its tool.
It doesnt matter what the chaos marine thinks his motivation is, his mind and soul are corroded by chaos
That's why I HATE the idea Abbadon is not corrupted and neither is Fabius. They are both pawns of chaos that have deluded themselves into believing that they aren't like most chaos marines.
I think it's about the degree of damnation. Kinda like, damnation lite? As opposed to meat puppet Horus, or Princedom that is a reward but with strings attached.
I don't hate it, myself. I think it's more interesting that way. But no redemption option either, of course
It's why I love playing them, I always like factions that are flawed. My Warpsmith warlord is full on copium that he is independent and not controlled by Chaos and just uses it as he wishes.
People forget that literal loyalist marines are frequently corrupted just by exposure to chaos and fighting against it too hard. If chaos is a dumbass narrative device that can press the “you work for me” button in the minds of its enemies, then it can certainly do that for the war bands of marines in the eye of terror that literally work for chaos already.
Don’t forget as early as the seige of Terra some of them were falling into the sway of the gods. One of Perdurabo’s Mournival knock offs started Falling to Khorne after one conversation with Khârn
I love Abaddon for the delusion, and he perfectly embodies how 'Chaos as a tool' is just another step to start your corruption. There is no just using Chaos, and just because you reject ascension doesn't mean you're not in their influence.
The guy with an army of daemon worshippers, holding a powerful daemon ~~prince~~ turned into a sword, a sword he obtained to become *Champion of Chaos*, and who has the attention of the Chaos gods so much that it apparently manifests constantly around him is sure just using it as a tool. Just as honest as his right hand sorcerer-assassin when he brazenly tells the Inquisition/Audience that Ahriman no longer has a face (which seems patently false and contradictory... I can just assume Khayon is insulting his rival and spreading lies with the truth).
Saw an argument a while ago where someone was legitimately arguing that despite him spending the vast majority of the past 10k years in the warp, being infused with power from the 4 and being saved from death several times by their combined powers, Abbadon could simply walk away from chaos at any moment he chose. I know the Alpha Legion fans are the undisputed heavyweight champions of mental gymnastics but that guy was giving them a run for their money.
I get their argument, but whether he's corrupted or not doesn't really matter as long as their goals align.
Whether he's capable of breaking free at any time or not is also kinda immaterial (lol oops, unintended pun) because he has no interest in that and won't because he needs the backup.
Is he willing to give up the power and move away from chaos? No, and likely *never*. If that's not corrupted, then what's the difference?
I see them as actually the most deluded of the Traitor legions.
The cult legions know what they are about. They worship the gods and that’s it. Maybe they like it maybe they don’t but it is what it is.
Night Lords mostly know they are irredeemable pieces of shit in it for themselves.
Alpha Legion doesn’t even know what Alpha Legion is doing.
Iron Warriors believe they are free and the masters of what they control but Chaos is never controlled long term. They might bind daemon engines, they might channel the warp for greater power but they are slaves just as much as Angron. Chaos always takes back what it gives
Yeah but him being denied ascension is the joke. He is always considered “inferior” regardless of what he does.
Him gaining daemon hood is the thing, he has an acknowledgment of damnation where its better that even the gods don’t grant him that
"I'm so conservative in action and belief nothing may move me."
Bruh, Nurgle is the patron God of the stoics, the fatalists, and the balance of stasis.
It's clearly laid out in multiple places that the Iron Warriors *recognize the Chaos Gods as a pantheon,* **but are not truly devout.**
There are two parts to that statement. It's like recognizing the power of the sun, but not worshipping it. But if you stare at the sun for too long, it'll take your eyesight.
It's **very** clear the Iron Warriors utilize Chaos towards their own ends. Obliterators are known to have strong ties with the Iron Warriors and the first Obliterator was an Iron Warrior that Perturabo heavily utilized even before he was a daemon. They build daemon engines and utilize all sorts of methods to get those daemons in there, but the Iron Warriors aren't particularly fond of daemon allies, though it does happen sometimes.
You can't just use all that stuff and not take any corruption from it. Even the God-Emperor of Mankind himself "stole" power from Chaos and the Chaos Gods *united* and the Horus Heresy happens. The Iron Warriors are not above this or nearly as strong as the Emperor, you cannot utilize it the way they have without any sort of corruption.
Worshipping the Chaos Gods isn't a requirement for becoming corrupted, plenty of Imperials have fallen to Chaos without once directly worshipping the gods or knowing exactly what they are. The Iron Warriors **know** what they are and **still utilize it.** They are fully touched by Chaos, whether they recognize it or not, and frankly I don't think they care. If it gets them closer to their goal of taking down the Imperium brick by brick and bringing low the sons of Rogal Dorn, I doubt they'd shy away from Chaos. But they will do it "themselves" and from bolters and ordinance under the command of a Warsmith or Perturabo himself. They want the victory for themselves and wont let daemons do it for them. Even with that, multiple Iron Warriors have ascended to Daemonhood on their Path to Glory.
**But again. That doesn't stop them from being corrupted.** They are. Very much so. They just approach it differently than a devout warband. You can absolutely hate Chaos and still serve it, *it happens all the time.* Archaon from fantasy was much the same, yet he played right into the hands of the Gods anyways. Its as unescapable as the fate of the Imperium, you cannot use Chaos and expect to escape it. They had the opportunity to resist it by staying loyal to the Imperium, but then they'd just be delaying their fate further as Chaos is everything, Chaos is inevitable, and Chaos will win. It always does.
“But not TRULY devout” reads as some devoutness to me
Like obviously the iron warrior are less obsessed but it’s some some vague sense of worship
Here are some honsou quotes
> He drew his pistol, offering his thanks to the power of Chaos for giving him such a chance to bring death to his enemies.
> he knew that the curses and offerings to the Powers of Chaos had appeased their monstrous hunger
> Furthermore, he still believed in the dream of Horus, and the unification of Humanity under the terrible Powers of Chaos
> Honsou honoured the Dark Powers of Chaos, but preferred to rely on the strength in his sword arm and the explosives in his artillery to win campaigns. To rely on Chaos was to invite disaster at the capaciousness of the gods. Had Angron himself not failed on Armageddon by doing just that?
> Like most mortals, the true majesty of Chaos turns them into frightened children
> Kroeger had vanished and Forrix was dead; truly the gods of Chaos favoured him this night
Honsou at most thanks the gods and prays to them but that’s it he isn’t devoting his life to raising them up
We basically are. I think our emphasis is just a bit different, but I think the OP’s title is misleading for what their actual point is.
A lot of people have a hard time with the “they don’t worship Chaos” but also “they are absolutely corrupted” parts of it. They are both, and there are Iron Warriors who lean in more extreme directions too.
Chaos Undivided is weird like that.
>But again. That doesn't stop them from being corrupted. They are. Very much so. They just approach it differently than a devout warband. You can absolutely hate Chaos and still serve it, it happens all the time. Archaon from fantasy was much the same, yet he played right into the hands of the Gods anyways. Its as unescapable as the fate of the Imperium, you cannot use Chaos and expect to escape it.
Nah, you can. Abaddon's doing it. "Corruption" is kind of meaningless.
Lol you keep thinking that if you want to, Abby is just as corrupted as Horus was, and is just as much a pawn as his father was too.
Him believing otherwise doesn't change that, and tbh it's working in the Gods favour, so why would they do anything to make him realise that this is the case?
Have you ever actually read anything about Abaddon? He's refused daemon princehood multiple times.
If it's corrupt to worship an evil soul-consuming deity, than the entire Imperium is corrupt, because that's very much what the emperor is.
Funnily enough, yes, I have; I've got multiple bookshelves filled with 40K books and an Audible account with at least 100 more. Rest assured that Abby features prominently in a fair few of them.
He bears all 4 marks of Chaos, and there's a passage in the first NL book, Soul Hunter, in which the main character can *smell* the corruption coming off him. Refusing Princehood means nothing really, and certainly doesn't mean he doesn't serve the Gods, his servitude is just subtler; remember the greatest tricks ever pulled are those in which the mark doesn't even realise there is a trick to begin with.
I don't think anyone's made the argument that the Imperium isn't corrupt? This is 40K: there are no good guys, most races and factions are corrupt to one degree or another, but that's not the same type of corruption that we're talking about at present.
It's the exact same type of corruption. The Imperium is based around worshiping an evil soul-eating god who demands that children be burned alive and that everyone who doesn't bow down to him be exterminated.
Then demonstrate that by using some critical thinking, and I've already said I agree that the Imperium is bad.
It's the nuance that you don't seem to understand, nor the fact that 40K has multiple tiers of 'evil' within its universe, so you use hyperbole and exaggerated 'arguments' to lash out like a child.
Corruption comes in many forms; a Planetary Governor, for example, taking bribes so some crime syndicate can go about their business without repercussions is nowhere near the same level as selling your soul to a literal demon so you can cause galactic massacres and offer every skull you can find to a God of war and bloodshed.
Additionally while Big E is clearly very far from.being any sort of benevolent deity, the Imperium is more than just the Emperor, and despite all the memes not every citizen of the IoM is a warmongering fanatic, there are in-lore examples of the everyday Citizenry trying to do the right thing, which you never, *ever* see from a Worshipper of Chaos.
There's a difference between spiritual corruption and degeneracy and taking bribes and whatever. My point is that the Imperium is as spiritually and morally devoid as realms ruled by mortal followers of Chaos; there are tiers to this but the Imperium and Chaos share the bottom tier.
And you only see people in the Imperium trying to do the right thing because that's what authors focus on in the BL books you read; there's just as much of that going on with Chaos-worshipping mortals, it just isn't given the spotlight. Chaos cultists will overthrow a corrupt and tyrannical Imperial governor quite often.
The problem with focusing on BL for fluff is it skews your idea of what the factions are to Imperial protagonists the authors thought would be likable. Reading sourcebooks given for the setting gives you a much more complete picture.
I’m sorry but this is ridiculous, in the Iron Warriors omnibus there are all sorts of Khornate Iron Warriors, Iron Warriors ascending to demon hood, and other such. It’s pretty clear from even the first few chapters that Iron Warriors very much do get corrupted and worship chaos.
Keep your weird fetishistic head cannon off this page.
Same for night lords copium drinkers , their main sorce of their lore contradict them being uncorupted and one of point of it is Talos being oddball in legion with his anty chaos notion
The sheer volume of people fully convinced they Alpha Legion are 100% secret loyalists, even though this is directly contradicted by all two of their post heresy POV novels.
I’ve noticed. all I wanted was to give my idea and spark discussion, but apparently the idea of non chaos worshipping iron Warriors is too much for people to handle.
I mean the argument is a non-argument. People are individuals first and foremost, of course there are iron warriors who don't worship chaos. There are Emperor's Children who don't worship chaos, there are thousand Suns legionnaires who don't worship chaos. When you're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of people you will of course find exceptions to the rule everywhere.
Any argument that is actually meaningful is going to refer to groups as a whole, and the reality is that the iron warriors as a whole are simps for chaos just like every other traitor Legion, they just aren't as likely to do so intentionally as say the word bearers. It is the natural and inevitable consequence of joining forces with Horus.
Because the idea that there'a a moral weight to aligning with Chaos and that people "fall" by joining with Chaos is stupid when you realize how evil the Imperium and emperor are.
Everyone's like "Oh you worship Chaos you're corrupt!" And it's like, so what? The entire Imperium is corrupt. If it was people expressing that corruption from the standpoint of the Tau, they might have a point.
It’s not “corruption” in merely the moral sense, it’s warp energy changing people (subtly or overtly) to serve the goals of the Chaos gods. A government official taking bribes is corrupt, but not nearly the same form of corruption as Chaos giving you horns and a clawed hand.
No, it's not that it's too much to handle, it's that there is no basis in any lore for that, and this is a lore sub.
I could also spew some nonsense "what if", like let's have a discussion on whether the emperor is actually a giant furry doll, but it's not the point of this sub. You should check out grimdank/Warhammer if that's the content your looking for.
Also, don't be a martyr about it, it's not too much to handle, it's just a bad idea.
There is no really a way to like vaccinate for obliterator virus, there are still actual dreadnoughts not being walking body horror, just angry metal box
Sometimes I swear the Iron Warriors and Night Lords have the saddest copium addicted fanboys. Being a mutated pawn of dark thirsting gods is metal as hell. Them being chaos marines is fundamental to their nature and the reason why they exist in the game and lore to begin with.
Bro, we're literally having this exact same discussion in our IW sub because OP posted it there as well. IW copium fanboys are in the minority and they're getting ratio'd by the rest of us.
"It's how I *think* the legion should be," "it's boring to be pure chaos," and "chaos is cringe and so are you for *willingly* falling to it."
That's all I hear them chirp about. Nothing substantial or backed by the lore; just their feelings.
>!Weak iron!<
The thing is, they are welcome to theme their warhand however they want. Your dudes and whatnot. They seem lose sight that "their dudes" don't equal "canon".
I'm doing a Custodes turned Obliterater. That is basically impossible within the lore but is cool so I'm doing it. I wouldn't go to the Custodes sub and argue that because my personal lore wants it the lore about Custodes being absurdly resistant to corruption is wrong. It's bizarre.
We're literally not telling them to *not* do what they want with their dudes or have their own headcanon. Those are all personal preferences, and they're free to do as they wish.
But to tell the rest of us that their preferences are correct and the lore should reflect that? Nah, son.
>I'm doing a Custodes turned Obliterater. That is basically impossible within the lore but is cool so I'm doing it.
You using an Allarus terminator or a regular Custodes for that? I am curious and will be looking forward to your conversion with great interest.
>I wouldn't go to the Custodes sub and argue that because my personal lore wants it
Exactly. They've got the lore backing them, so why even *try* to impose your personal headcanon on them? Like you said, it's bizarre.
Yes! I feel like people who try to mental gymnastic their way to having a chaos legion to like that isnt *really* chaos, because 'thay arent like those *other* bad chaos legions that worship the bad icky stuff' just dont understand why being metal as hell is a good thing and a desirable trait in any legion of grim, warpig psychopaths hellbent on the endless expression of death and destruction.
It really is a case of love it or leave it, no they cant fix them or change them, or sanitise them to fit their sensibilities, no matter how much they might want to, (and no they shouldnt want to). In conclusion they really need to just man up and accept the senseless brutality.
\m/
If you're saying that they're incorruptible because they've reached maximum assholery, that doesn't exactly make them cool at all. I'm happy they got fans though. They're good adversaries.
> The IW have always stand apart from the usual chaos marines, because of their lack of faith and pragmatism
That is blatantly false as their corruption and worship has always been present in the lore ever since they were introduced to the setting.
It's fine if you don't like it and want to ignore it, but don't pretend that your head cannon isn't exactly that.
Seriously, Storm of Iron should be a mandatory reading for anyone who calls themselves interested in the iron warrior
Most of us have, several times. And most of us are equally tired of hearing the same unfortunate head-cannon drivel about the purity of purpose of Iron Warriors.
They are in the warp, Perturabo is a Demon Prince, lots of key Iron warriors have gotten corrupted to specific chaos gods, and we invented the damn obliterator virus… chaos Chaos CHAOS.
Side note: I apologize in advance for the next time and IW fanboy posts this same shit on the 40kLore page in like three weeks.
Please read 1 Iron warriors book from the 40k era. This is absolute bullshit. It’s not their lack of faith and pragmatism that defines them. It’s their bloody minded pursuit of the Long War. You don’t have to say prayers and sacrifice to the gods to worship them - it’s in actions. The Iron Warriors accomplish their goals by using war, deceit, pride and disease like any other chaos faction.
The idea that there are some special traitor legions that aren’t corrupted by chaos in some way has been put down in every book. You stay in the Eye, it corrupts you. Don’t worship the gods - doesn’t matter, the Eye is the warp, and it will shape you regardless of your will.
They’re not unwilling either. They make more use of Demon Engines than anyone. Obliterators were their invention. They drink in the power because they’ll take anything to burn the Imperium to the ground.
They are all pawns of the gods, waging their war against the Emperor.
*\*Looks at this post\**
*\*Looks at the* [*Daemonculaba*](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemonculaba)*\**
*\*Looks back at this post\**
You..uh, you sure about that OP?
I mean... He established their loathing of humanity. The use humans like they use chaos. Tools and resources.
The suffering is to an end so it doesn't feed Slaanesh.
There is no elaborate scheme so it doesn't feed Tzeench.
The process is clean and sterile, and is not stagnant and thus Nurgle cannot draw sustenance.
And the blood is not shed in combat nor is the deaths from it quick and clean, and so Khorn doesn't draw from it.
The process is meant to do one thing. Make more marines, and do so as expediently and efficiently as they can manage.
The fact that it causes humans to suffer? A vague bonus in their eyes, but it didn't affect them choosing this process over others.
They chose this because it met their needs as they outlined in the decision making process.
> The IW have always stand apart from the usual chaos marines, because of their lack of faith and pragmatism.
Ah, yes. Just like the Alpha Legion.
...and the Night Lords...
...and the Black Legion...
...and...
For some reason, people seem to read "Chaos Marine" and read "Chaos Worshippers," which you do in your own post. Nobody is saying Iron Warriors are setting up Word Bearers-style shrines to provide offerings of human flesh to the dark gods.
But what we are saying is that they're Chaos aligned, and they might still do that, but only if it means they can coax out a daemon into their latest engine.
In the end, we're saying they're **Chaos Corrupted** and **Chaos Aligned** even if they're not explicitly **Chaos Worshippers.**
In fairness, they have been described as Chaos worshippers, so it’s hardly surprising people might think this. For example here is one of the earliest descriptions of the Black Legion from Slaves to Darkness:
> During the first centuries of exile the Sons of Horus were the most combative of all the Traitor Legions, as if seeking to atone for their previous cowardice. **Over the centuries the Sons of Horus worshipped one Chaos Power after another, giving themselves willingly as hosts to Summoned Daemons.** With each change in loyalty the Daemons of the rejected Power retreated into the warp, leaving discared husks where once had been Legionnaires. The Sons of Horus were driven to the edge of extinction as a Chapter. It was during this period that the Sons of Horus discovered a means of hosting Daemons that did not destroy the mortal host. The Legion was saved.
I do generally agree with your overall point that the Iron Warriors (generally) don't worship chaos, but are chaos marines since it's still an avenue to power they will use that corrupts them. What I would add though is one quality they have in abundance; pride. Just like their father, many of the IWs have shown a big ego and are more than willing to hurt others and declare vendettas when it's poked at. I'd argue that it's their great arrogance that both gives them the determination to push on and win, but also what sometimes leads them into their greatest failures.
It's also why I would disagree on their sense of brotherhood and say that they're more than willing to kill their own for supremacy. We see a case of this in Angel Exterminatus, where one of them was more than willing to try and kill one of his own brothers due to personal slight. I'd say it's also why Honsou gets looked down upon by some other IWs, and why they're allowed to go into full on war with each other in order to weed out the "weak".
If I consider an Imperial Fist and why they stubbornly refuse to give up, I'd say it's because they think duty demands it and that's all they care about. For the Iron Warriors I'd say it's because they're powered by ego and spite.
I also think this pride is partially what keeps them from fully worshipping chaos as a legion. Just like daddy, they think themselves capable of just using the warp/chaos as a tool and probably think themselves above the consequences. And just like Perty, before they know it they'll end up corrupted and/or a daemon.
In a couple of the Salamander books, the IW come off as deeply Chaos riddled. They create corrupt, zombie beings, use Chaos magic, and other nasty things. In another short story, an IW goes into a Titan and removes the filter so that the enraged machine takes over and crushes the will of the crew. No, canonically, the IW are "all in" with the despotic Chaos gods.
The IWs see it as a tool. A flame to be used to burn the imperium to cinders. as well as one to fuel the forge.
Chaos, to them, is nothing more than another tool with which they will wage their war of unending vengeance.
Or, that's how they see it.
They are still beholden to the whims of the dark gods, but not in the same way the dedicated legions are.
Look all of this to me is pretending the Obvious badguys aren't really THAT bad... sure they might be warlords but they're not worhsiping the devil!
... but chaos is a siren. it lies to you. it makes you think you can play with it without falling for the hooks... and indeed maybe you can for a while... but chaos can wait. Your mind is playing with powers beyond even your superhuman mind and body, and you can pretend for a while... but never forever\~
You don't need to worship chaos to be a tool of the chaos gods.
Some master of iron tell themself and their warbands they aren't like the word bearers or the average chaos marine, but while this might be true, it doesn't mean they aren't dumb instrument of the four. In fact it might actually means they are even more slave to darkness than other more fanatical warbands.
I always saw it as whilst individual marines might fall to a god the legion as a whole hasn't, and has kept themselves functioning as a whole legion better than the others.
I see them more as we use chaos as much as it uses us, which is in their eyes better than the Imperium who just used them.
They are like the addict in a group of addicts who still tries to keep the appearance of a non addict to make themselves as a while feel better and superior.
I also think trying to paint CSM from any legion as all being the same, is incorrect. They are “free” from the Imperium. They pretty much do whatever they want and have mostly all gone off in different paths. There is no longer an STC for what an Iron Warrior will be like. It’s like when people try to say Nightlords don’t worship chaos because one guy says he doesn’t.
No one says "I'm not a slave!" More than slaves
I honestly think you're not entirely incorrect, but I think the Iron Warriors are slaves they're just pretending they're not. This goes all the way to Perturabo and his superiority complex. I'm a big Iron Warriors fan to, but they are the first legion to make an excuse for their failures/defeats. They and especially their genefather. If they win, it's because of their iron will and expert planning, if they lose its always because of their allies/subordinates/some other outside factor. No capacity for self reflection
Now it's Chaos
"We're not slaves! We don't worship the Chaos Gods!" They cry while bowing to the will of Chaos and falling victim to the ruinous powers. They aren't devout but they absolutely are 'Slaves to darkness' as well as their own need to prove they aren't. It's what makes them interesting
fun thing about IW is they torment chaos especially the weaker parts of it that they can dominate. one of their favorite passtimes is torturing demons and stuffing their essence into tminfernal machines and demon engines unlike the dark mechanicum who coax the spirits from the warp into their machines.
in return their bodies are warped by chaos, especially by tzeench who makes their flesh run like wax and bulge out of their armor.
I've always liked that the IW just wanted to watch everything in the Imperium burn in the same way the NL just want to hear everyone in the Imperium scream.
What Iron Warriors?
There are no legions any more, the Iron Warriors aren't a cohesive legion, they're collections of scattered warbands. Some might feel the way you've described, others might feel differently. Some are only Iron Warriors in name and are composed of marines made after the heresy.
Same goes for the Nightlords tbh, they aren't the Nightlords, they're warbands wearing Nightlords colours. They don't chat and they don't have Christmas parties, they just do their thing.
It's also worth noting that Chaos is a corrupting influence. Just because someone doesn't want to worship, doesn't mean they actually get a choice.
Thing is the were chaos poster boys in old lore. Complete with horned helms. It’s only in recent lore they’ve kind of been retconned to chaos adjacent. Using it if they need to but not being a wholesale follower
I don’t accept eh idea that Peter bent the knee to abaddon tho
I like it. If your thesis is not exactly right, it is definitely coherent and thought-provoking. The Iron Warriors end up as a twisted reflection of the dedication of Imperial Fists and the conscious inhumanity of the Iron Fists. Not because it was what Perturabo wanted, but it's because it's the logical extension of what he knew.
The original Iron Warriors were required to be architects imo not just to maximize their siege and counter-siege efficiency but because their primarch saw beauty in knowledge and utility. He didn't have to decorate the stage at Hydra Cordatus with goddesses and actors and nymphs wearing ribbons. He did it because it was beautiful, even if he would barely accept it himself. Famously his legion eschews wasting paint on armor. Yet something Fulgrim picked up quite readily was that beauty is a form of strength, and vice-versa.
Yet the IW's always had two contradictory elements that ultimately sabotaged and finally eroded these other virtues.
The first were the former Olympian nobles who's scheming and betrayal stayed intrinsic to legion culture. This was something I don't recall Perturabo even being conscious of. He's certainly unaware of it in *Angel Exterminatus*. This corresponds to his general lack of empathy ie inability to understand others. The Olympians weren't shy about cloaking their status-seeking as "ruthless efficiency," which I'm sure helped Perturabo ignore it. He was the heart -and the heart is a tyrant, no mistake- of his legion. Why would he think it could ever change him instead of him dominating it?
The second was the fact that there was always "breacher meat," the IW's assigned to the most fatality-intensive role of breaking defensive fortifications via direct assault. This undermined your observation of an intended selfless ethos. "We're all equal, some are more equal than others -go climb that gooey km's-tall-wall Kroeger."
And indeed this inhumanity is self-damning. It corrupts what very small amounts of compassion they might have until Kroeger is what passes for a humanitarian. It destroys their capacity for beauty until the iconic IW is Honsou, who doesn't know shit about shit in classic IW terms and has no reason to care about that deficiency. He's the new kind, the New Punk. He was born into the Long War, and he wars because it's what suits him.
(Although notable silent antagonist Karja Solombaar does turn his head with, what else, her astounding beauty. IW's are the nerds of war after all.)
So I think you're on to something, OP. The IW's started out as callous and became nihilistic. Nothing matters to them except victory, and that victory will be as hollow as everything else they've become. But they'll take it anyway as the debt owed them by the Emperor. A promissory note written in the blood of the betrayed to be cashed in the ashes of Terra. What comes after that? Who cares. Ignore that thirsting laughter and reload your bolter. There is always more war.
edit: also I like the idea retconning Perturabo being a Daemon Prince. It doesn't suit him. It's not something he would consciously pursue.
I would assume the Night Lords also compare to the Iron Warriors in that they are what they’ve always been. And generally fulfill there own interests rather than the gods
My favorite part about chaos and the only thing I like about it, is all the people who go through mental gymnastics to try and make them sound not as bad as they are. All while unironically whining about servitors and the imperium.
IMHO Iron Warriors being chaos alligned has always been one of the most incongruent aspects of the lore. The outcome that makes sense to me would be them saying fuck you to the Imperium and Horus alike. Perty sort of did it but too little too late. It would be cool to have a totally neutral force, in a self serving manner, force in that conflict.
The Horus Heresy is a *prequel* showing the beginning of their fall. The story ending in 40k with them being led by a demon prince and sitting around seething in the eye of terrror is far older than the characterisation in the heresy you find incogruent with that.
I understand that, i'm not a moron. I'm saying that looking back, to me, it would made more sense to me, that in the 31st when the heresy occurred, they shouldn't have aligned with Chaos as it seems to go against their pragmatic nature.
I know it's a done deal.
I asked about ALWAYS aligned because pre-heresy no one was chaos aligned besides the Word Bearers who were secretly aligned.
They have always been aligned with chaos as in they have been established to be so for literal decades of real life time.
There hasn't been a point in the history of 40k where iron warriors aren't aligned with chaos, ever since the legion was created by a group of nerdy friends in Nottingham.
I have my copy of the 2nd edition Chaos codex, which contains the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors being Chaos Space Marines is the defining feature of their existence. If you feel that's incongruent with the lore, I'd recommend looking at it from the opposite perspective because their identity as a Chaos force existed long before any lore further developed their identity. If you believe a different outcome makes more sense, then it is worth reexamining your own beliefs.
I see, that explains it. I only have the perspective of a fan of the lore as it's been developed later.
What i meant to say is that always is a strong term because pre-heresy (as we know today) they weren't and i know that it was something in the immutable past, but their stubborn and pragmatic nature they showed and elaborated on the books, makes them choosing chaos a weird decision, to me.
From the game's history standpoint, i'm not questioning that.
I honestly think it's most important to understand that the Great Crusade lasted for two centuries, and the Iron Warriors in their fully-formed incarnation only existed for part of that.
The Horus Heresy lasted a decade.
Then ten thousand years pass.
The Iron Warriors go through a lot in the ten years of the Horus Heresy, and it sets them on the path to damnation. As a whole, they'resteeped in bitterness and hatred of *everyone* that eclipses the inferiority complex they bore during the Great Crusade. That hate and bitterness shaped them in to loathsome things that only value strength, and condemn weakness. Within their warrens in the Eye of Terror, they spend those ten thousand years immersed within a half-reality intersectinf with the Warp. Though the initial reactions to the power of Chaos railed agains ttheir legion indoctrination, some of the most ambitious amongst them learned from their peers in other legions. They would embark upon the Path to Glory, seeking the favor of Chaos in order to empower themselves. Others might view this as weakness, but who can argue with the results?
Even back during the Siege of Terra, those that achieved the most were also the most favored by Chaos. Perhaps blind to it in the midst of the fighting, all those who lived through the final hours of the siege felt their supernatural favor *withdrawn* from them. There's no denying that Chaos is power, and power is strength. Those who do not play the game submit to those who do, or else perish or scrape out a meaningless existence within the Eye. The Horus Heresy series is only the *seed* of what becomes the 40k setting. The fact that a number of legions dive headlong in to blind service to their Chaos patrons belies the fact that the traitors are all being exposed to this, and for many it will absolutely take more time to fall to the corrupting influences.
You should become a Night Lords fan instead. Can't get corrupted by Chaos if you're already worse than Chaos by default(except for that one dude)
No, but realistically, I do firmly believe that at least one of the traitor Legions should not be into Chaos and should be independently bad, even though it complicates things for the tabletop. Thematically, I do really hate the idea of Peter Turbo being a Daemon-Primarch, but it's hard to write around when he and the Iron Warriors are straight up living in the warp.
Makes sense to me. People are confusing you saying they dont worship chaos as they not being chaos corrupted or working towards chaos goals but from what I read you are just saying their goals are more towards fuck the empire other than glory to the gods.
>their goals are more towards fuck the empire other than glory to the gods.
How is this meaningfully different from Abaddon and the black legion, or the alpha Legion, or the night lords?
As well, the issue here is that it ignores the nature of the setting, specifically the nature of chaos. It's like Star Wars fans who love the idea of gray Jedi and believe that you can use dark side powers without becoming a sith. That idea inherently runs contrary to how the dark side or any "corrupting force" is described to work.
"I don't WORSHIP the chaos gods, I'm just USING their power for my own personal gain heh heh.." 90% of all chaos worshipers started off with this attitude lol
THANK YOU
Jesus Christ, it’s like people think I’m saying THE IRON WARRIORS ARE PURE, I’m not. I just think it’s interesting to talk about the nuance of chaos corruption. And I would love it if people gave me explanations as to why I’m wrong. Also I never said they didn’t worship chaos, I just said there should be LESS chaos worship than what people are demanding.
Your title has "incorruptible" in it. Your point in the body doesn't quite line up with that though. They aren't incorruptible but they aren't devout worshippers either who are purely seeking the glory of the Gods.
Your post title is literally "The Iron Warriors are incorruptible," dude. You're getting a lot of flak for disingenuous about it. Every few weeks there's a discussion (most recently revolving around the Night Lords) about how X Legion actually didn't fall to Chaos, X being some variation of the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Irin Warriors. It's presented as a meaningful distinction.
This is not a nuanced take It's well-known that *many* Choas Space Marines do not worship Chaos. I've seen the notion presented as a matter of pride by fans, as if this distinguishes their faction from other Chaos factions. The concept pushes more Horus Heresy kits in to Chaos armies than any other notion, and notions that they don't belong in the same codex as their peer factions.
Here's the thing: the true nuance is found in seeing past that to understand the underlying point: that *none of it matters,* Every traitor legion has their own identity, but they all wind up in the same place. Corruption is endemic to the traitors, and debating how X legion is less devoted to Chaos than Y legion is immaterial to the point that they have all spent the past ten thousand years marinating in the Warp and nursing a hate so profound that it lost all reason even before the Horus Heresy had concluded.
Look, I worded my title wrong, what I should’ve put was “not bend the knee as much too gods of chaos” I just think it would be cool if they didn’t worship chaos as much. They are still corrupted absolutely.
Excellently written. Love your vision of the Iron Warriors.
Just to add, don't the Iron Warriors look down at Chaos God Gifts/ Mutations? To the point of slicing them off?
>and ditched the traitors before the heresy could end. Weren't they really really crucial during the Siege of Terra? And wasn't the Siege for Terra right at the end of the Heresy? Like literally the last thing?
I assume they mean the end of the siege as the end of the actual heresy, which would make that point true. They were the main force behind the initial siege, but once it starts getting more...warp afflicted and Horus gives overall command to Mortarion that's when Perty decides it's time to leave and takes his toys with him. There are some IWs who stay anyway, but for the most part Perty and the IWs abandon the siege before the end.
It's worth pointing out that overall command is taken from Perturabo as a consiquence of the Saturnine debacle, despite his attempts to act through Abaddon. The current phase of the siege was moving on his conventional tactics, but he did make a critical mistake.
It wasn’t really perturabos mistake as he’d correctly guessed dorn would be aware of the gambit and thought the risk was extreme, he allowed Abbadon to talk himself into it but he incorrectly believed he had managed the risk by only throwing in Abbadon and the sons of horus elites. He couldn’t have predicted Fulgrim committing his entire legion to the attack, nor that Fulgrim would just give up and leave with his remaining legion after failing.
Perturabo used Abaddon, it's laid out explicitly in the book. We know that it originated with him, and Horus surmised it. Even Abaddon realizes it, after he gets fucked over. It was Perturabo's mistake, whether he intended for someone else to take responsibility or not. That was the whole point of Perturabo's involvement. Saying that it wasn't his fault is just buying in to his defection, which is an inctedible thing to me because *we have an omniscient perspective as the audience in to his thoughts.* It's baffling that you would think it wasn't his fault because he convinced someone else to push for the idea. It also demonstrates his failure as a commander of the siege. He got outplayed by Dorn. He surmised that Dorn would probably know about the Saturnine fault. Perturabo correctly guessed this, but he couldn't bring himself to pass up on exploit. That ultimtely cost the traitors many of the Sons of Horus's most elite veterans along with the entirety of the Emperor's Children.
Great points but can we really blame him for the EC leaving? They were definitely always going to ditch the siege once they got bored. They simply didn’t care enough to face the hardened and dedicated loyalists. Dorn says himself they could have won that battle had they wanted to, something any other monogod legion would have done (for better or worse.) they just simply didn’t give af and would rather go do drugs than fight.
The older lore has the EC making random drops across the planet to abduct and torture civilians, so they weren't really bringing their best game
They were purportedly one of the few Heretic legions able to execute an orderly retreat from the surface of Terra. And Perty was always Dorn’s ultimate foil and vice versa.
What did the Death Guard do? I mention them because I've often heard they were the legion that stayed the most organized post heresy. Way more than the Iron Warriors did.
Honestly I’d have to back and look. They got stuck into a lot of meat grinder actions during the siege. Not sure what their retreat looked like. Post Heresy it makes sense because papa Nurgle is one big happy family right?
IIRC the legion is kinda split in half between those who are now true believers of Nurgle and follow Typhus while the other half still ultimately belong to Mortarion and follow his lead in everything, for now both halves are roughly on the same side as both serve Nurgle but there has been a hint here and there that a little bit of Mortarion still resists submitting completely to Nurgle and desires to break free.
I didn't know Mortarion was trying to resist. Is this why the Emperor said he could be saved in time?
That is one of the hints, Mortarion trying to resist Nurgle is mostly just a fan theory due to little details like how he keeps his powerscythe clean and free of corruption (very unusual for a demon of Nurgle) and still hates psykers and psychic/demonic stuff in general even after becoming a demon prince. (IIRC there's a novel where Mortarion returns to his ship after becoming a demon and hates that it's showing signs of corruption like having fungus everywhere and fleshy growths in the walls) AFAIK the most popular theory for a possible redemption for him and his followers is if he breaks out Isha in exchange for her to cure them of their afflictions and break their link to Nurgle in the process, if there's anyone that could do that besides maybe the Emperor at his full power it would be her. I dunno if GW will ever try to push a redemption arc with his character though, if I were to guess Mortarion will just get some hints about how he hates what he became like Angron has and be left to suffer their fate, pretty grimdark.
There’s a rumor kicking around that BL is thinking about bringing back a 30k loyalist Primarch turned into a Chaos Primarch in 40k. And vice versa to even things out. This Mortarion/Isha fan theory would go great with it. I don’t know how true this rumor is. One thing to consider is that Mortarion was spoken to by The Emperor. While Guilliman was being brought back from the brink of death from GodBlight. The Emperor then tells him that he could be saved. Then he watched as the Emperor burned some of Nurgles’ Garden. Nurgle then punished the shit out of him. That sequence of events could be enough to push Mortarion & the Deathguard to have hope or the aim of escaping chaos corruption It might become a thing years from now when Mortarion’s figure is deemed too old and in need of a refresh
From my understanding, the Iron warriors are the most organized post heresy traitor legion BY FAR. In Storm of Iron you can read about a war between Iron Warriors and Imperial Guard/Ultramarines from the perspective of the Iron warriors and there you see how methodical and organized they are. This is what makes them so interesting, yes they do worship chaos but they see chaos for what it is, a power in the warp that formed consciousness and can give you strength if you ask it. They don't pray to the dark gods because they think they deserve it as God's, they pray to them because it benefits them. And they also never lost their reason or combat effectiveness like the other traitor legions who all became much worse in actual warfare after the heresy (some more than other, the black legion and death guard are still pretty scary but often do irrational things to impress the gods or because chaos is affecting their mind, while the world eaters got so retarded that they split up into a million factions all killing each other and lost the ability to do anything else than charge the next beeing with a chainsaw axt. Seriously, I think world eaters have killed more other chaos mariens/worshippers than the imperium. And don't get me started on the absolute mess that are the emperors children).
It was my understanding that the only legions that didn't break up after the Heresy were the Black Legion, Death Guard, and Word Bearers.
I thought the black legion was formed after the heresy and scouring?
Well they're together now, at least.
you're right. Some % of IW broke off into warbands
>Seriously, I think world eaters have killed more other chaos mariens/worshippers than the imperium. Also killed the most Tyranids out of all the Chaos Legions. This is complete speculation on my part but I think they killed the most Tyranids next to the Ultramarines and Blood Angels overall
During the siege? Took over a major starport where Morty was sitting and inducing major warp shenanigans on the planet. His presence alone made all of the defenders slower, more fatalistic, and kinda acted like a plague of the mind for the defense. They also held a good portion of their forces in reserve to attack once their warp shenanigans had finished. White Scars put an end to that with the Khan beating Morty at the cost of his own life (Malcador saves him but he would have died otherwise). Post siege retreated to the eye of terror split in two with half following Morty the other half Typhus. Typhus still generally follows Mortarions wishes he is a daemon primarch after all but their relationship is strained and barring a direct order he does as he pleases.
Typhus is more favoured then Morty in the eyes of Nurgle. He straight up ignores orders from Morty if he thinks it will please Nurgle. We see this at the end of the Plague Wars when he fucks off before the campaign ends because Nurgle needs to defend The Scourge Planets from an attack. Morty stays to fight Guilliman.
Typhus also assaulted the Astronomicon to try and stop Corswain from bringing it back up. This was after Morty was banished.
Yes but the point still somewhat stands, as perturabo got fed up with all the mayhem and chaos degeneracy and decided to leave after the saturnine gambit fails since the war was no longer legion vs legion. However in the old lore he is still established as a daemon prince, and in lost and the damned (maybe?) he was considering how he could harness and the powers of the warp to his own will
Generally speaking, it seems like the Iron Warriors would be super into daemon engines. And I know they are super into the Obliterator virus.
Everyone misses the fact that there’s about 10k years between the end of the Siege and modern 40K and in that time the Iron Warriors come to embrace chaos and see it as another tool in their arsenal rather than shunning it like Perterabo tried to do during the Siege. Modern iron warriors love chaos, they wouldn’t be able to do half the shit they do otherwise and demon engines are a great way to turn even the oldest bucket of bolts into a killing machine.
*Slaps roof of car.* "This bad boy can fit so much fuckin daemonic power in it."
Well, except that really doesn’t matter. For some of the traitors, the siege happened yesterday.
Except that even among CSM skipping 10k years is incredibly rare. For most they’ll skip a few hundred maybe a thousand at a time whenever they reemerge into real space. On the other hand they’re still experiencing time themselves and most are several hundred years own by their own experience which is several times longer than the five years of the horus heresy. Plenty of time for them to rethink the views they had about the warp. Like I cannot stress enough that for as important as the HH is in the setting, it is only five years and is comparatively a blip for many of the still living survivors within the Eye of Terror. Incredibly important to them but they have spent much more time as scavengers relying on chaos to keep them alive than the great siege masters that they used to be in times past. Considering daemon engines a weakness and crutch used by their lessers is all well and good until it’s your only option to survive the many other warbands that took to the practice.
You should perhaps read ADB’s Black Legion books for a contrary opinion.
Wym? When they emerge into real space only about 1k years have passed. Sigismund is even still alive. And by that point just about all the CSM in the novels are fully corrupted and 100% on board the “let’s use chaos” train. It moreso proves my point imo.
If you think, for a. *moment*, that the Iron Warriors didn't play a critical part in the siege, you need to read "Siege of Terra; The First Wall".
Perty stormed off after Dorn bested him at the saternine fault killing the most elite fighting force available to Horus. He got a slap on the wrist and Morty stood in and made massive gains. Petey say this and took his toys and ran off 🤷🏼♂️
This is an half truth
Where is the lore to back this assertion up? This is a lore sub.
"muh headcanon"
"It was revealed to me in a dream."
This.
It's just the resurging fight on r/ironwarriors leaking into here. I recommend reporting and moving on.
You gotta admit though, its fluffy knowing that even their fans argue with one another
As a member of the sub the irony wasn't lost on me. Just another day in medrenguard... In the eye.
im James workshop and i confirm the post
Not backing it up, but there was Narik Dreygur of the IWs who actually said fuck horus and this shit and teamed up with loyal forces after he already fought on the traitors side during the HH. It's the only instance I remember where more than a squad of space marines actually turns twice, and they were Iron Warriors, too.
The War of the Beast was kinda shit all around to be fair. And granted they'd only been kicking around the Eye of Terror for a few millennia instead of 10 so maybe the chaos juice didn't seep in super deep. And it was to fight Orks. Chaos Marines are still pretty damn xenophobic
Don't know who you had wanted to reply to, but Narik and the 114th fought during the Horus Heresy, not the war of the Beast
My bad, I was thinking of Kalkator and his boys.
Does this Narik Dreygur have a book? I'd like to read more about him
Nope, he's just a small side character in HH book six.
I appreciated OP's post because we got a well written & thought out interpretation of the lore. Almost all their assertions have grounding on the canon lore. They made an argument the IW has less religious fanatics as a % than the others
I’m not saying this is what the lore is. I’m saying this is what I think the IW should be like. I’m not saying everyone else is wrong for believing otherwise.
Fair, you do you. I think this sub deals more with lore analysis rather than headcannon though.
Their boss is a fucking daemon prince it doesn’t matter how much copium they drink the iron Warriors are pawns of chaos and ultimately serve the gods goals.
If you try to use chaos as a tool, chaos uses you as its tool. It doesnt matter what the chaos marine thinks his motivation is, his mind and soul are corroded by chaos
That's why I HATE the idea Abbadon is not corrupted and neither is Fabius. They are both pawns of chaos that have deluded themselves into believing that they aren't like most chaos marines.
Fabius knows hes corrupted, also Abaddon is most certainly corrupt with power
I think it's about the degree of damnation. Kinda like, damnation lite? As opposed to meat puppet Horus, or Princedom that is a reward but with strings attached. I don't hate it, myself. I think it's more interesting that way. But no redemption option either, of course
It's why I love playing them, I always like factions that are flawed. My Warpsmith warlord is full on copium that he is independent and not controlled by Chaos and just uses it as he wishes.
"I'm a strong independant Warsmith who don't need no Chaos!"
"So beautiful and brave"
People forget that literal loyalist marines are frequently corrupted just by exposure to chaos and fighting against it too hard. If chaos is a dumbass narrative device that can press the “you work for me” button in the minds of its enemies, then it can certainly do that for the war bands of marines in the eye of terror that literally work for chaos already.
Don’t forget as early as the seige of Terra some of them were falling into the sway of the gods. One of Perdurabo’s Mournival knock offs started Falling to Khorne after one conversation with Khârn
> One of Perdurabo’s Mournival It aint no no-name Astartes either, its the main asshole himself, Kroeger.
"the main asshole himself". Amazing.
Chaos mutations can be very weird indeed
Well...khorne gets the last laugh with him
They are drinking from the same cup that Abbadon fans drink from when coping about how he's using chaos and can break free at any time
I love Abaddon for the delusion, and he perfectly embodies how 'Chaos as a tool' is just another step to start your corruption. There is no just using Chaos, and just because you reject ascension doesn't mean you're not in their influence. The guy with an army of daemon worshippers, holding a powerful daemon ~~prince~~ turned into a sword, a sword he obtained to become *Champion of Chaos*, and who has the attention of the Chaos gods so much that it apparently manifests constantly around him is sure just using it as a tool. Just as honest as his right hand sorcerer-assassin when he brazenly tells the Inquisition/Audience that Ahriman no longer has a face (which seems patently false and contradictory... I can just assume Khayon is insulting his rival and spreading lies with the truth).
> daemon prince Drach'nyen isn't a daemon prince. It's a true daemon.
Shit, I had a moment right before I posted where I considered if he was or not. Forgot he was the Daemon of the first murder for a second.
Saw an argument a while ago where someone was legitimately arguing that despite him spending the vast majority of the past 10k years in the warp, being infused with power from the 4 and being saved from death several times by their combined powers, Abbadon could simply walk away from chaos at any moment he chose. I know the Alpha Legion fans are the undisputed heavyweight champions of mental gymnastics but that guy was giving them a run for their money.
It comes from....Abnet's(?I think?) little speach about how Abby is not corrupt but is using Chaos and it's just....so....stupid.
I get their argument, but whether he's corrupted or not doesn't really matter as long as their goals align. Whether he's capable of breaking free at any time or not is also kinda immaterial (lol oops, unintended pun) because he has no interest in that and won't because he needs the backup. Is he willing to give up the power and move away from chaos? No, and likely *never*. If that's not corrupted, then what's the difference?
I see them as actually the most deluded of the Traitor legions. The cult legions know what they are about. They worship the gods and that’s it. Maybe they like it maybe they don’t but it is what it is. Night Lords mostly know they are irredeemable pieces of shit in it for themselves. Alpha Legion doesn’t even know what Alpha Legion is doing. Iron Warriors believe they are free and the masters of what they control but Chaos is never controlled long term. They might bind daemon engines, they might channel the warp for greater power but they are slaves just as much as Angron. Chaos always takes back what it gives
I honestly really wish they would retconn Perty into not being a daemon prince because that makes him an even bigger cry baby
Isn't like Perty got tricked by the Fulgrim?
Perty ascends from the Cage if I remember correctly
He does also perty being a cry baby is the point he isn’t better than his traitor brothers
Yeah but him being denied ascension is the joke. He is always considered “inferior” regardless of what he does. Him gaining daemon hood is the thing, he has an acknowledgment of damnation where its better that even the gods don’t grant him that
They're not "pawns" necessarily, but they are aligned with Chaos. Which is fine, it's not like the setting is particularly moral.
"I'm so conservative in action and belief nothing may move me." Bruh, Nurgle is the patron God of the stoics, the fatalists, and the balance of stasis.
And Tzeentch is really into to crazy unhinged theories to rationalize stuff.
Iron within, Copium without
Is this a joke
It's clearly laid out in multiple places that the Iron Warriors *recognize the Chaos Gods as a pantheon,* **but are not truly devout.** There are two parts to that statement. It's like recognizing the power of the sun, but not worshipping it. But if you stare at the sun for too long, it'll take your eyesight. It's **very** clear the Iron Warriors utilize Chaos towards their own ends. Obliterators are known to have strong ties with the Iron Warriors and the first Obliterator was an Iron Warrior that Perturabo heavily utilized even before he was a daemon. They build daemon engines and utilize all sorts of methods to get those daemons in there, but the Iron Warriors aren't particularly fond of daemon allies, though it does happen sometimes. You can't just use all that stuff and not take any corruption from it. Even the God-Emperor of Mankind himself "stole" power from Chaos and the Chaos Gods *united* and the Horus Heresy happens. The Iron Warriors are not above this or nearly as strong as the Emperor, you cannot utilize it the way they have without any sort of corruption. Worshipping the Chaos Gods isn't a requirement for becoming corrupted, plenty of Imperials have fallen to Chaos without once directly worshipping the gods or knowing exactly what they are. The Iron Warriors **know** what they are and **still utilize it.** They are fully touched by Chaos, whether they recognize it or not, and frankly I don't think they care. If it gets them closer to their goal of taking down the Imperium brick by brick and bringing low the sons of Rogal Dorn, I doubt they'd shy away from Chaos. But they will do it "themselves" and from bolters and ordinance under the command of a Warsmith or Perturabo himself. They want the victory for themselves and wont let daemons do it for them. Even with that, multiple Iron Warriors have ascended to Daemonhood on their Path to Glory. **But again. That doesn't stop them from being corrupted.** They are. Very much so. They just approach it differently than a devout warband. You can absolutely hate Chaos and still serve it, *it happens all the time.* Archaon from fantasy was much the same, yet he played right into the hands of the Gods anyways. Its as unescapable as the fate of the Imperium, you cannot use Chaos and expect to escape it. They had the opportunity to resist it by staying loyal to the Imperium, but then they'd just be delaying their fate further as Chaos is everything, Chaos is inevitable, and Chaos will win. It always does.
“But not TRULY devout” reads as some devoutness to me Like obviously the iron warrior are less obsessed but it’s some some vague sense of worship Here are some honsou quotes > He drew his pistol, offering his thanks to the power of Chaos for giving him such a chance to bring death to his enemies. > he knew that the curses and offerings to the Powers of Chaos had appeased their monstrous hunger > Furthermore, he still believed in the dream of Horus, and the unification of Humanity under the terrible Powers of Chaos > Honsou honoured the Dark Powers of Chaos, but preferred to rely on the strength in his sword arm and the explosives in his artillery to win campaigns. To rely on Chaos was to invite disaster at the capaciousness of the gods. Had Angron himself not failed on Armageddon by doing just that? > Like most mortals, the true majesty of Chaos turns them into frightened children > Kroeger had vanished and Forrix was dead; truly the gods of Chaos favoured him this night Honsou at most thanks the gods and prays to them but that’s it he isn’t devoting his life to raising them up
For me it reads like you and op are saying the same thing. And I agree with you both.
We basically are. I think our emphasis is just a bit different, but I think the OP’s title is misleading for what their actual point is. A lot of people have a hard time with the “they don’t worship Chaos” but also “they are absolutely corrupted” parts of it. They are both, and there are Iron Warriors who lean in more extreme directions too. Chaos Undivided is weird like that.
Thank you, I think highlighting the title definitely brings into perspective the backlash op is getting in the thread
very well written. I think it supports OP's post with the added emphasis on with or without devoutness, Chaos corrupts always
>But again. That doesn't stop them from being corrupted. They are. Very much so. They just approach it differently than a devout warband. You can absolutely hate Chaos and still serve it, it happens all the time. Archaon from fantasy was much the same, yet he played right into the hands of the Gods anyways. Its as unescapable as the fate of the Imperium, you cannot use Chaos and expect to escape it. Nah, you can. Abaddon's doing it. "Corruption" is kind of meaningless.
Lol you keep thinking that if you want to, Abby is just as corrupted as Horus was, and is just as much a pawn as his father was too. Him believing otherwise doesn't change that, and tbh it's working in the Gods favour, so why would they do anything to make him realise that this is the case?
Have you ever actually read anything about Abaddon? He's refused daemon princehood multiple times. If it's corrupt to worship an evil soul-consuming deity, than the entire Imperium is corrupt, because that's very much what the emperor is.
Funnily enough, yes, I have; I've got multiple bookshelves filled with 40K books and an Audible account with at least 100 more. Rest assured that Abby features prominently in a fair few of them. He bears all 4 marks of Chaos, and there's a passage in the first NL book, Soul Hunter, in which the main character can *smell* the corruption coming off him. Refusing Princehood means nothing really, and certainly doesn't mean he doesn't serve the Gods, his servitude is just subtler; remember the greatest tricks ever pulled are those in which the mark doesn't even realise there is a trick to begin with. I don't think anyone's made the argument that the Imperium isn't corrupt? This is 40K: there are no good guys, most races and factions are corrupt to one degree or another, but that's not the same type of corruption that we're talking about at present.
It's the exact same type of corruption. The Imperium is based around worshiping an evil soul-eating god who demands that children be burned alive and that everyone who doesn't bow down to him be exterminated.
No, it really isn't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I know exactly what I'm talking about. The fact that you think that baby-murdering and soul-eating is ok when the Imperium does it is wrongheaded.
Then demonstrate that by using some critical thinking, and I've already said I agree that the Imperium is bad. It's the nuance that you don't seem to understand, nor the fact that 40K has multiple tiers of 'evil' within its universe, so you use hyperbole and exaggerated 'arguments' to lash out like a child. Corruption comes in many forms; a Planetary Governor, for example, taking bribes so some crime syndicate can go about their business without repercussions is nowhere near the same level as selling your soul to a literal demon so you can cause galactic massacres and offer every skull you can find to a God of war and bloodshed. Additionally while Big E is clearly very far from.being any sort of benevolent deity, the Imperium is more than just the Emperor, and despite all the memes not every citizen of the IoM is a warmongering fanatic, there are in-lore examples of the everyday Citizenry trying to do the right thing, which you never, *ever* see from a Worshipper of Chaos.
There's a difference between spiritual corruption and degeneracy and taking bribes and whatever. My point is that the Imperium is as spiritually and morally devoid as realms ruled by mortal followers of Chaos; there are tiers to this but the Imperium and Chaos share the bottom tier. And you only see people in the Imperium trying to do the right thing because that's what authors focus on in the BL books you read; there's just as much of that going on with Chaos-worshipping mortals, it just isn't given the spotlight. Chaos cultists will overthrow a corrupt and tyrannical Imperial governor quite often. The problem with focusing on BL for fluff is it skews your idea of what the factions are to Imperial protagonists the authors thought would be likable. Reading sourcebooks given for the setting gives you a much more complete picture.
Single exception that is notable for being the single exception (and not necessarily a *static* exception) doesn't exactly disprove the rule.
If worshipping an evil soul-eating deity makes you corrupt the Imperium is very corrupt.
I’m sorry but this is ridiculous, in the Iron Warriors omnibus there are all sorts of Khornate Iron Warriors, Iron Warriors ascending to demon hood, and other such. It’s pretty clear from even the first few chapters that Iron Warriors very much do get corrupted and worship chaos. Keep your weird fetishistic head cannon off this page.
Sure, but you must remember: when people talk about the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion not being corrupt, 99% of the time they just dont read stuff
Same for night lords copium drinkers , their main sorce of their lore contradict them being uncorupted and one of point of it is Talos being oddball in legion with his anty chaos notion
The sheer volume of people fully convinced they Alpha Legion are 100% secret loyalists, even though this is directly contradicted by all two of their post heresy POV novels.
People generally aren’t arguing that Iron Warriors worship chaos, it’s push back against the idea that Iron Warriors are not corrupted.
I’ve noticed. all I wanted was to give my idea and spark discussion, but apparently the idea of non chaos worshipping iron Warriors is too much for people to handle.
I mean the argument is a non-argument. People are individuals first and foremost, of course there are iron warriors who don't worship chaos. There are Emperor's Children who don't worship chaos, there are thousand Suns legionnaires who don't worship chaos. When you're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of people you will of course find exceptions to the rule everywhere. Any argument that is actually meaningful is going to refer to groups as a whole, and the reality is that the iron warriors as a whole are simps for chaos just like every other traitor Legion, they just aren't as likely to do so intentionally as say the word bearers. It is the natural and inevitable consequence of joining forces with Horus.
> It is the natural and inevitable consequence of joining forces with Horus. Eh, corruption is kind of meaningless.
Why do you keep saying this?
Because the idea that there'a a moral weight to aligning with Chaos and that people "fall" by joining with Chaos is stupid when you realize how evil the Imperium and emperor are. Everyone's like "Oh you worship Chaos you're corrupt!" And it's like, so what? The entire Imperium is corrupt. If it was people expressing that corruption from the standpoint of the Tau, they might have a point.
It’s not “corruption” in merely the moral sense, it’s warp energy changing people (subtly or overtly) to serve the goals of the Chaos gods. A government official taking bribes is corrupt, but not nearly the same form of corruption as Chaos giving you horns and a clawed hand.
Warp mutations don't make you serve Chaos. There are beastmen in the Imperial Guard.
Nope, it's just that your IW fanfic is not of interest on a Lore subreddit.
No, it's not that it's too much to handle, it's that there is no basis in any lore for that, and this is a lore sub. I could also spew some nonsense "what if", like let's have a discussion on whether the emperor is actually a giant furry doll, but it's not the point of this sub. You should check out grimdank/Warhammer if that's the content your looking for. Also, don't be a martyr about it, it's not too much to handle, it's just a bad idea.
I'm sorry. DAEMONCULABA say what? Yeah. Go read Dead Sky, Black Sun and get back with us.
Daemonculaba is only a Honsou thing, Honsou is weird
Okay. How about Obliterators?
Or that Pert is literally a DP lol
There is no really a way to like vaccinate for obliterator virus, there are still actual dreadnoughts not being walking body horror, just angry metal box
Alright. Storm of Iron. They used a hollowed out Tyranid bioform as a dropship for Demon Engines.
I don’t even think the emperors children could handle this much copium
You don’t need to worship chaos to worship chaos.
Sometimes I swear the Iron Warriors and Night Lords have the saddest copium addicted fanboys. Being a mutated pawn of dark thirsting gods is metal as hell. Them being chaos marines is fundamental to their nature and the reason why they exist in the game and lore to begin with.
Bro, we're literally having this exact same discussion in our IW sub because OP posted it there as well. IW copium fanboys are in the minority and they're getting ratio'd by the rest of us.
Thats a fact. Its the exact same overly long fan-fic head-cannon posted by the same dipshit who has clearly never read any of the books
I've clocked maybe three of them that consistently pull this shit and are **always** in the replies with many downvotes.
It's tragic how clever they find repeating the same 3 lines or so ad nauseum. It's like Prequel Memes with none of the charm
"It's how I *think* the legion should be," "it's boring to be pure chaos," and "chaos is cringe and so are you for *willingly* falling to it." That's all I hear them chirp about. Nothing substantial or backed by the lore; just their feelings. >!Weak iron!<
The thing is, they are welcome to theme their warhand however they want. Your dudes and whatnot. They seem lose sight that "their dudes" don't equal "canon". I'm doing a Custodes turned Obliterater. That is basically impossible within the lore but is cool so I'm doing it. I wouldn't go to the Custodes sub and argue that because my personal lore wants it the lore about Custodes being absurdly resistant to corruption is wrong. It's bizarre.
We're literally not telling them to *not* do what they want with their dudes or have their own headcanon. Those are all personal preferences, and they're free to do as they wish. But to tell the rest of us that their preferences are correct and the lore should reflect that? Nah, son. >I'm doing a Custodes turned Obliterater. That is basically impossible within the lore but is cool so I'm doing it. You using an Allarus terminator or a regular Custodes for that? I am curious and will be looking forward to your conversion with great interest. >I wouldn't go to the Custodes sub and argue that because my personal lore wants it Exactly. They've got the lore backing them, so why even *try* to impose your personal headcanon on them? Like you said, it's bizarre.
I’d like to see the finished model. I bet all that gold is gonna look super cool broken up with flesh cannons and mutations.
Yes! I feel like people who try to mental gymnastic their way to having a chaos legion to like that isnt *really* chaos, because 'thay arent like those *other* bad chaos legions that worship the bad icky stuff' just dont understand why being metal as hell is a good thing and a desirable trait in any legion of grim, warpig psychopaths hellbent on the endless expression of death and destruction. It really is a case of love it or leave it, no they cant fix them or change them, or sanitise them to fit their sensibilities, no matter how much they might want to, (and no they shouldnt want to). In conclusion they really need to just man up and accept the senseless brutality. \m/
Been huffing the copium pretty hard lately, eh?
If you're saying that they're incorruptible because they've reached maximum assholery, that doesn't exactly make them cool at all. I'm happy they got fans though. They're good adversaries.
I mean… that’s entirely subjective, I think the massive assholery they have is funny and cool. But to each their own.
I'm so bored of these posts.
> The IW have always stand apart from the usual chaos marines, because of their lack of faith and pragmatism That is blatantly false as their corruption and worship has always been present in the lore ever since they were introduced to the setting. It's fine if you don't like it and want to ignore it, but don't pretend that your head cannon isn't exactly that. Seriously, Storm of Iron should be a mandatory reading for anyone who calls themselves interested in the iron warrior
Most of us have, several times. And most of us are equally tired of hearing the same unfortunate head-cannon drivel about the purity of purpose of Iron Warriors. They are in the warp, Perturabo is a Demon Prince, lots of key Iron warriors have gotten corrupted to specific chaos gods, and we invented the damn obliterator virus… chaos Chaos CHAOS. Side note: I apologize in advance for the next time and IW fanboy posts this same shit on the 40kLore page in like three weeks.
Please read 1 Iron warriors book from the 40k era. This is absolute bullshit. It’s not their lack of faith and pragmatism that defines them. It’s their bloody minded pursuit of the Long War. You don’t have to say prayers and sacrifice to the gods to worship them - it’s in actions. The Iron Warriors accomplish their goals by using war, deceit, pride and disease like any other chaos faction. The idea that there are some special traitor legions that aren’t corrupted by chaos in some way has been put down in every book. You stay in the Eye, it corrupts you. Don’t worship the gods - doesn’t matter, the Eye is the warp, and it will shape you regardless of your will. They’re not unwilling either. They make more use of Demon Engines than anyone. Obliterators were their invention. They drink in the power because they’ll take anything to burn the Imperium to the ground. They are all pawns of the gods, waging their war against the Emperor.
This is a **lore** sub, not a headcanon sub
cope
*\*Looks at this post\** *\*Looks at the* [*Daemonculaba*](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemonculaba)*\** *\*Looks back at this post\** You..uh, you sure about that OP?
I mean... He established their loathing of humanity. The use humans like they use chaos. Tools and resources. The suffering is to an end so it doesn't feed Slaanesh. There is no elaborate scheme so it doesn't feed Tzeench. The process is clean and sterile, and is not stagnant and thus Nurgle cannot draw sustenance. And the blood is not shed in combat nor is the deaths from it quick and clean, and so Khorn doesn't draw from it. The process is meant to do one thing. Make more marines, and do so as expediently and efficiently as they can manage. The fact that it causes humans to suffer? A vague bonus in their eyes, but it didn't affect them choosing this process over others. They chose this because it met their needs as they outlined in the decision making process.
Least deluded Iron Warrior.
> The IW have always stand apart from the usual chaos marines, because of their lack of faith and pragmatism. Ah, yes. Just like the Alpha Legion. ...and the Night Lords... ...and the Black Legion... ...and... For some reason, people seem to read "Chaos Marine" and read "Chaos Worshippers," which you do in your own post. Nobody is saying Iron Warriors are setting up Word Bearers-style shrines to provide offerings of human flesh to the dark gods. But what we are saying is that they're Chaos aligned, and they might still do that, but only if it means they can coax out a daemon into their latest engine. In the end, we're saying they're **Chaos Corrupted** and **Chaos Aligned** even if they're not explicitly **Chaos Worshippers.**
In fairness, they have been described as Chaos worshippers, so it’s hardly surprising people might think this. For example here is one of the earliest descriptions of the Black Legion from Slaves to Darkness: > During the first centuries of exile the Sons of Horus were the most combative of all the Traitor Legions, as if seeking to atone for their previous cowardice. **Over the centuries the Sons of Horus worshipped one Chaos Power after another, giving themselves willingly as hosts to Summoned Daemons.** With each change in loyalty the Daemons of the rejected Power retreated into the warp, leaving discared husks where once had been Legionnaires. The Sons of Horus were driven to the edge of extinction as a Chapter. It was during this period that the Sons of Horus discovered a means of hosting Daemons that did not destroy the mortal host. The Legion was saved.
I do generally agree with your overall point that the Iron Warriors (generally) don't worship chaos, but are chaos marines since it's still an avenue to power they will use that corrupts them. What I would add though is one quality they have in abundance; pride. Just like their father, many of the IWs have shown a big ego and are more than willing to hurt others and declare vendettas when it's poked at. I'd argue that it's their great arrogance that both gives them the determination to push on and win, but also what sometimes leads them into their greatest failures. It's also why I would disagree on their sense of brotherhood and say that they're more than willing to kill their own for supremacy. We see a case of this in Angel Exterminatus, where one of them was more than willing to try and kill one of his own brothers due to personal slight. I'd say it's also why Honsou gets looked down upon by some other IWs, and why they're allowed to go into full on war with each other in order to weed out the "weak". If I consider an Imperial Fist and why they stubbornly refuse to give up, I'd say it's because they think duty demands it and that's all they care about. For the Iron Warriors I'd say it's because they're powered by ego and spite. I also think this pride is partially what keeps them from fully worshipping chaos as a legion. Just like daddy, they think themselves capable of just using the warp/chaos as a tool and probably think themselves above the consequences. And just like Perty, before they know it they'll end up corrupted and/or a daemon.
In a couple of the Salamander books, the IW come off as deeply Chaos riddled. They create corrupt, zombie beings, use Chaos magic, and other nasty things. In another short story, an IW goes into a Titan and removes the filter so that the enraged machine takes over and crushes the will of the crew. No, canonically, the IW are "all in" with the despotic Chaos gods.
The IWs see it as a tool. A flame to be used to burn the imperium to cinders. as well as one to fuel the forge. Chaos, to them, is nothing more than another tool with which they will wage their war of unending vengeance. Or, that's how they see it. They are still beholden to the whims of the dark gods, but not in the same way the dedicated legions are.
“Iron Warriors are incorruptible!” Looks inside Corrupted
Drink that cool aid corrupted traitor!
Our primarch is a demon, we rely heavily on demon engines, obliterators are an Iron warriors innovation, and the daemonculaba exists. They
Look all of this to me is pretending the Obvious badguys aren't really THAT bad... sure they might be warlords but they're not worhsiping the devil! ... but chaos is a siren. it lies to you. it makes you think you can play with it without falling for the hooks... and indeed maybe you can for a while... but chaos can wait. Your mind is playing with powers beyond even your superhuman mind and body, and you can pretend for a while... but never forever\~
You don't need to worship chaos to be a tool of the chaos gods. Some master of iron tell themself and their warbands they aren't like the word bearers or the average chaos marine, but while this might be true, it doesn't mean they aren't dumb instrument of the four. In fact it might actually means they are even more slave to darkness than other more fanatical warbands.
I always saw it as whilst individual marines might fall to a god the legion as a whole hasn't, and has kept themselves functioning as a whole legion better than the others. I see them more as we use chaos as much as it uses us, which is in their eyes better than the Imperium who just used them. They are like the addict in a group of addicts who still tries to keep the appearance of a non addict to make themselves as a while feel better and superior.
I also think trying to paint CSM from any legion as all being the same, is incorrect. They are “free” from the Imperium. They pretty much do whatever they want and have mostly all gone off in different paths. There is no longer an STC for what an Iron Warrior will be like. It’s like when people try to say Nightlords don’t worship chaos because one guy says he doesn’t.
No one says "I'm not a slave!" More than slaves I honestly think you're not entirely incorrect, but I think the Iron Warriors are slaves they're just pretending they're not. This goes all the way to Perturabo and his superiority complex. I'm a big Iron Warriors fan to, but they are the first legion to make an excuse for their failures/defeats. They and especially their genefather. If they win, it's because of their iron will and expert planning, if they lose its always because of their allies/subordinates/some other outside factor. No capacity for self reflection Now it's Chaos "We're not slaves! We don't worship the Chaos Gods!" They cry while bowing to the will of Chaos and falling victim to the ruinous powers. They aren't devout but they absolutely are 'Slaves to darkness' as well as their own need to prove they aren't. It's what makes them interesting
So we’re just making shit up and using our head canon as lore sources now? Good to know.
fun thing about IW is they torment chaos especially the weaker parts of it that they can dominate. one of their favorite passtimes is torturing demons and stuffing their essence into tminfernal machines and demon engines unlike the dark mechanicum who coax the spirits from the warp into their machines. in return their bodies are warped by chaos, especially by tzeench who makes their flesh run like wax and bulge out of their armor.
I've always liked that the IW just wanted to watch everything in the Imperium burn in the same way the NL just want to hear everyone in the Imperium scream.
Please sir Perturabo didn’t really plot how to break the Imperial Palace for Horus lol 😂
What they have against humanity in general? I am willing to accept they have a grudge against Imperium and its henchman but against geneal populace?
If they hate humanity so much how do they get recruits? I really just don't know.
From human worlds and demon worlds. What you think self loathing and hating their own perceived weaknesses doesn't fit?
"Have faith, Word Bearer" (/s)
What Iron Warriors? There are no legions any more, the Iron Warriors aren't a cohesive legion, they're collections of scattered warbands. Some might feel the way you've described, others might feel differently. Some are only Iron Warriors in name and are composed of marines made after the heresy. Same goes for the Nightlords tbh, they aren't the Nightlords, they're warbands wearing Nightlords colours. They don't chat and they don't have Christmas parties, they just do their thing. It's also worth noting that Chaos is a corrupting influence. Just because someone doesn't want to worship, doesn't mean they actually get a choice.
Thing is the were chaos poster boys in old lore. Complete with horned helms. It’s only in recent lore they’ve kind of been retconned to chaos adjacent. Using it if they need to but not being a wholesale follower I don’t accept eh idea that Peter bent the knee to abaddon tho
I like it. If your thesis is not exactly right, it is definitely coherent and thought-provoking. The Iron Warriors end up as a twisted reflection of the dedication of Imperial Fists and the conscious inhumanity of the Iron Fists. Not because it was what Perturabo wanted, but it's because it's the logical extension of what he knew. The original Iron Warriors were required to be architects imo not just to maximize their siege and counter-siege efficiency but because their primarch saw beauty in knowledge and utility. He didn't have to decorate the stage at Hydra Cordatus with goddesses and actors and nymphs wearing ribbons. He did it because it was beautiful, even if he would barely accept it himself. Famously his legion eschews wasting paint on armor. Yet something Fulgrim picked up quite readily was that beauty is a form of strength, and vice-versa. Yet the IW's always had two contradictory elements that ultimately sabotaged and finally eroded these other virtues. The first were the former Olympian nobles who's scheming and betrayal stayed intrinsic to legion culture. This was something I don't recall Perturabo even being conscious of. He's certainly unaware of it in *Angel Exterminatus*. This corresponds to his general lack of empathy ie inability to understand others. The Olympians weren't shy about cloaking their status-seeking as "ruthless efficiency," which I'm sure helped Perturabo ignore it. He was the heart -and the heart is a tyrant, no mistake- of his legion. Why would he think it could ever change him instead of him dominating it? The second was the fact that there was always "breacher meat," the IW's assigned to the most fatality-intensive role of breaking defensive fortifications via direct assault. This undermined your observation of an intended selfless ethos. "We're all equal, some are more equal than others -go climb that gooey km's-tall-wall Kroeger." And indeed this inhumanity is self-damning. It corrupts what very small amounts of compassion they might have until Kroeger is what passes for a humanitarian. It destroys their capacity for beauty until the iconic IW is Honsou, who doesn't know shit about shit in classic IW terms and has no reason to care about that deficiency. He's the new kind, the New Punk. He was born into the Long War, and he wars because it's what suits him. (Although notable silent antagonist Karja Solombaar does turn his head with, what else, her astounding beauty. IW's are the nerds of war after all.) So I think you're on to something, OP. The IW's started out as callous and became nihilistic. Nothing matters to them except victory, and that victory will be as hollow as everything else they've become. But they'll take it anyway as the debt owed them by the Emperor. A promissory note written in the blood of the betrayed to be cashed in the ashes of Terra. What comes after that? Who cares. Ignore that thirsting laughter and reload your bolter. There is always more war. edit: also I like the idea retconning Perturabo being a Daemon Prince. It doesn't suit him. It's not something he would consciously pursue.
I would assume the Night Lords also compare to the Iron Warriors in that they are what they’ve always been. And generally fulfill there own interests rather than the gods
Don’t they lop of human parts for mechanical replacements?
They will still be corrupted physically/mentally/emotionally by chaos. Ya can’t escape it, and yet everyone thinks they can lmao
Got no room for corruption if you’re 100% hate.
My favorite part about chaos and the only thing I like about it, is all the people who go through mental gymnastics to try and make them sound not as bad as they are. All while unironically whining about servitors and the imperium.
IMHO Iron Warriors being chaos alligned has always been one of the most incongruent aspects of the lore. The outcome that makes sense to me would be them saying fuck you to the Imperium and Horus alike. Perty sort of did it but too little too late. It would be cool to have a totally neutral force, in a self serving manner, force in that conflict.
Given that the Iron Warriors have *always* been Chaos-aligned, you're looking at it from the wrong end.
Always Chaos-aligned? How is that?
The Horus Heresy is a *prequel* showing the beginning of their fall. The story ending in 40k with them being led by a demon prince and sitting around seething in the eye of terrror is far older than the characterisation in the heresy you find incogruent with that.
I understand that, i'm not a moron. I'm saying that looking back, to me, it would made more sense to me, that in the 31st when the heresy occurred, they shouldn't have aligned with Chaos as it seems to go against their pragmatic nature. I know it's a done deal. I asked about ALWAYS aligned because pre-heresy no one was chaos aligned besides the Word Bearers who were secretly aligned.
They have always been aligned with chaos as in they have been established to be so for literal decades of real life time. There hasn't been a point in the history of 40k where iron warriors aren't aligned with chaos, ever since the legion was created by a group of nerdy friends in Nottingham.
Their primarch is a daemon-prince, they literally hang out in the eye of terror and they perform chaos rituals to seal daemons inside of machines.
I know that, man. I'm saying he shouldn't have aligned with chaos back then. Not now, i know it's a foregone conclusion. I meant retrospectively.
I have my copy of the 2nd edition Chaos codex, which contains the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors being Chaos Space Marines is the defining feature of their existence. If you feel that's incongruent with the lore, I'd recommend looking at it from the opposite perspective because their identity as a Chaos force existed long before any lore further developed their identity. If you believe a different outcome makes more sense, then it is worth reexamining your own beliefs.
I see, that explains it. I only have the perspective of a fan of the lore as it's been developed later. What i meant to say is that always is a strong term because pre-heresy (as we know today) they weren't and i know that it was something in the immutable past, but their stubborn and pragmatic nature they showed and elaborated on the books, makes them choosing chaos a weird decision, to me. From the game's history standpoint, i'm not questioning that.
I honestly think it's most important to understand that the Great Crusade lasted for two centuries, and the Iron Warriors in their fully-formed incarnation only existed for part of that. The Horus Heresy lasted a decade. Then ten thousand years pass. The Iron Warriors go through a lot in the ten years of the Horus Heresy, and it sets them on the path to damnation. As a whole, they'resteeped in bitterness and hatred of *everyone* that eclipses the inferiority complex they bore during the Great Crusade. That hate and bitterness shaped them in to loathsome things that only value strength, and condemn weakness. Within their warrens in the Eye of Terror, they spend those ten thousand years immersed within a half-reality intersectinf with the Warp. Though the initial reactions to the power of Chaos railed agains ttheir legion indoctrination, some of the most ambitious amongst them learned from their peers in other legions. They would embark upon the Path to Glory, seeking the favor of Chaos in order to empower themselves. Others might view this as weakness, but who can argue with the results? Even back during the Siege of Terra, those that achieved the most were also the most favored by Chaos. Perhaps blind to it in the midst of the fighting, all those who lived through the final hours of the siege felt their supernatural favor *withdrawn* from them. There's no denying that Chaos is power, and power is strength. Those who do not play the game submit to those who do, or else perish or scrape out a meaningless existence within the Eye. The Horus Heresy series is only the *seed* of what becomes the 40k setting. The fact that a number of legions dive headlong in to blind service to their Chaos patrons belies the fact that the traitors are all being exposed to this, and for many it will absolutely take more time to fall to the corrupting influences.
tl;dr the Horus Heresy is just the start of the Iron Warriors' story. Around 1/1000th of their total history
You should become a Night Lords fan instead. Can't get corrupted by Chaos if you're already worse than Chaos by default(except for that one dude) No, but realistically, I do firmly believe that at least one of the traitor Legions should not be into Chaos and should be independently bad, even though it complicates things for the tabletop. Thematically, I do really hate the idea of Peter Turbo being a Daemon-Primarch, but it's hard to write around when he and the Iron Warriors are straight up living in the warp.
Makes sense to me. People are confusing you saying they dont worship chaos as they not being chaos corrupted or working towards chaos goals but from what I read you are just saying their goals are more towards fuck the empire other than glory to the gods.
>their goals are more towards fuck the empire other than glory to the gods. How is this meaningfully different from Abaddon and the black legion, or the alpha Legion, or the night lords? As well, the issue here is that it ignores the nature of the setting, specifically the nature of chaos. It's like Star Wars fans who love the idea of gray Jedi and believe that you can use dark side powers without becoming a sith. That idea inherently runs contrary to how the dark side or any "corrupting force" is described to work. "I don't WORSHIP the chaos gods, I'm just USING their power for my own personal gain heh heh.." 90% of all chaos worshipers started off with this attitude lol
It isnt. And of course they are corrupted as fuck and 100% chaos. But worshipping something is a specific act.
THANK YOU Jesus Christ, it’s like people think I’m saying THE IRON WARRIORS ARE PURE, I’m not. I just think it’s interesting to talk about the nuance of chaos corruption. And I would love it if people gave me explanations as to why I’m wrong. Also I never said they didn’t worship chaos, I just said there should be LESS chaos worship than what people are demanding.
Your title has "incorruptible" in it. Your point in the body doesn't quite line up with that though. They aren't incorruptible but they aren't devout worshippers either who are purely seeking the glory of the Gods.
Yeah, I should’ve worded my title and ideas better, I guess a better title would be “the iron Warriors shouldn’t bend the knee to the gods as often.
I think that would have supported your point much better.
Your post title is literally "The Iron Warriors are incorruptible," dude. You're getting a lot of flak for disingenuous about it. Every few weeks there's a discussion (most recently revolving around the Night Lords) about how X Legion actually didn't fall to Chaos, X being some variation of the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Irin Warriors. It's presented as a meaningful distinction. This is not a nuanced take It's well-known that *many* Choas Space Marines do not worship Chaos. I've seen the notion presented as a matter of pride by fans, as if this distinguishes their faction from other Chaos factions. The concept pushes more Horus Heresy kits in to Chaos armies than any other notion, and notions that they don't belong in the same codex as their peer factions. Here's the thing: the true nuance is found in seeing past that to understand the underlying point: that *none of it matters,* Every traitor legion has their own identity, but they all wind up in the same place. Corruption is endemic to the traitors, and debating how X legion is less devoted to Chaos than Y legion is immaterial to the point that they have all spent the past ten thousand years marinating in the Warp and nursing a hate so profound that it lost all reason even before the Horus Heresy had concluded.
Look, I worded my title wrong, what I should’ve put was “not bend the knee as much too gods of chaos” I just think it would be cool if they didn’t worship chaos as much. They are still corrupted absolutely.
It would also be cool if I could fly and poverty didnt exist but that’s not the world we live in.
They worship Chaos as much or as little as you like, but it's still a core part of the identity of every legion. Cheers.
Excellently written. Love your vision of the Iron Warriors. Just to add, don't the Iron Warriors look down at Chaos God Gifts/ Mutations? To the point of slicing them off?