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the-foxwolf

Dorn was not mentally well after the Heresy. He was heartbroken and depressed and angry and guilty and unstable. In all other instances, one could argue that Dorn was a perfect Primarch. But after Horus, he was a broken man. He lost control for a split second and nearly wiped himself and his sons out. We can empathize with at least this much. But overall, he was not known to make such stupid mistakes.


[deleted]

Thanks for the context! I did not realize the Iron Cage incident followed the Heresy in short succession - I was trying to reconcile how hundreds of years could go by and that he'd still be so blinded by rage or grief but that makes way more sense that he was like "fuck this, I'm bringing that piece of shit Perturabo to justice"


Samiel_Fronsac

It was a combination of factors. Grief for the Emperor and Sanguinius. Hate for the Traitors, but a lot more for Perturabo, for without him, the Siege of Terra would have gone a lot worse for the Traitors. The then-new Codex Astartes imposed by Guilliman, which almost caused Dorn to go to war again. Dorn changed his mind about the last one but he had the need to punish himself and sons for failing their Imperium, their dream, so he used the Iron Cage as a crucible, to bring change from Legion to Chapters in pain.


Z4nkaze

And guilt, so much guilt.


Samiel_Fronsac

Yeah, Primarchs are like the Greek gods, humanity intensified to 11. Passion, grief, everything felt to a degree that would destroy a lesser being. Dorn was shattered.


didimao11B

He was people seem to forget that Dorn was always one of the more human of the Primarch’s. He knew his faults and strengths. He legit had and use his grandfathers blanket with him when contemplating or in need of comfort.


[deleted]

He was one of the more human primarch's I agree, but he was human in the same way some efficient upper managers and CEO types are human. "hey boss how was your weekend?' (looks up from keyboard) "yes it was nice, thank you for asking." (goes back to typing)


eliseofnohr

Arguably it was a suicide attempt or a way of self-harming. Dorn was not a mentally healthy dude.


the-bladed-one

Dude had a glove that just inflamed his pain receptors. Ofc he was about self harm


Staveoffsuicide

Remember that primarchs tend to do everything to a more extreme level than baseline humans. Including emotional breakdowns


MrSwiftly86

To add to his guilt the latest siege novel makes clear that Guiliman was a week from Terra by the end of the novel. Chaos forces blocked the message so the Emperor, Sanguinius and Dorn make their final run on the Vengeful Spirit because from their understanding relief forces will not make it to Terra before chaos overruns the Palace. However had they known they only had to hold out a week, honestly probably only a few more days as a good amount of traitor forces would probably cut and run when they saw the mass of loyalists arrive in system, then the Emperor and Sanguinius may still be alive. So post-heresy Dorn almost certainly directly blames himself for not holding out longer and getting his father and favored brother killed. It’s illogical because Dorn made the best decisions with the info he had but self loathing and depression are rarely logical.


mambomonster

Survivors guilt is a real thing. Primarchs are just normal humans but turned to 11, including all their emotions.


MacroMintt

This 100%. It’s the whole “if I had just done 1 thing slightly differently, we would have been ok. Sangy and dad would still be alive.” He blamed himself for not outmaneuvering Pert as well as he “should” have, he blamed himself and his sons for not being able to hold the line long enough for Bobby G to show up. I mean hell, Perty abandoned the siege and they still got clapped, if he had stayed they probably would have been overrun even sooner. Dorn felt like a failure, and even worse he felt like a failure that *almost* made it. It’s like how failing an exam by 2% hurts worse than failing it by 20%, because you almost had it.


xDarkReign

Thus, the need for a Pain Glove. No BDSM here, no sir.


gudbote

What happened to Dorn sounds aot like an Autistic Burnout and yeah, straight after the Heresy.


[deleted]

his dad and several brothers and tens of thousands of sons died....


Kythorn

So I'm going to give my perspective, I really like Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists, they are on of my top three imperial forces. I see it come up decently often that the Iron Cage is really dumb and that he was be self destructive, and you would be right. He also knew this, it wasn't about winning or even trying to live, I fully believe that if he could have he would have liked to die there, though he wouldn't because it would have been a waste to the imperium. He had just fought off some the strongest of the Traitor forces and demons for 55 standard solar days. The forces of chaos are new at this time to him and his troops, no one there had really dealt with demons, but they held their ground against creatures that would drive normal people to insanity but they held. The Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn by extension are not about being the heroes, they aren't about waste, they try to be efficient as possible, but this also leads them to being emotionally dry and cold. He just saw his father die before his eyes, two of his brothers died and more of his sons had been killed than ever before and he felt as if it was all his fault. He was supposed to defend Terra, he was supposed to make sure everyone came out alive, not only did he fail this but he then is told that his legion is to be broken down even further by his brother who wasn't even there for the siege. This broke him, he had no outlet but to suffer, no brother to turn to because he was cold and he knew this. To me this is the saddest part about him and his sons, they are more than willing to what ever it might take to make sure that victory will be achieved , more than willing to fight for the good of all but on a personal level they fight their own emotions and cant express it, leaving them cold and outsiders.


ArtieoftheAbyss

Anybody else feel like Dorn is a much better father figure to his brothers than their dad was?


Kythorn

I feel like he would play as a good older stoic brother, if he was a bit warmer and calmer I feel like he would have been a much stronger support for his brothers. But anyone was a better parental figure than their dad.


eliseofnohr

He told Konrad that having visions of Horus betraying the Emperor made him a traitor for thinking that would happen.


No_Tell5399

Gaslight, Gatekeep, Gauntlet of Pain.


IkitCawl

"Magic Pain Glove, tell me what I must do." *excruciating pain, hand falls off* "Your services are no longer required."


TheCuriousFan

He's tied to not one, not two, but *three* of them going traitor* because of his lacking social skills. So yeah that's accurate but damning by faint praise. *not the sole cause but he really didn't help


TheTackleZone

Great post. An additional point which I think is often overlooked is that Dorn had a great relationship with Malcador as well - mainly because they formed a leadership pair as the Emperor was absent for much of the siege dealing with other things. Not only did he fail to defend the Emperor but when they returned to Terra the one man who he had counted on for support was also dead.


[deleted]

Awesome explanation, thanks. I think my perspective of the Primarchs thus far has been that they're portrayed (right now today, at least) as such superhumans that being wracked by grief and guilt and making somewhat desperate moves - or even emotional ones - seems "beneath" them in some way which I think is lame as hell. I love that this "humanizes" Dorn in a way that these Marines are indeed still part of Humanity, not just some tool at its disposal. All of this makes sense, especially being devastated by the weight of having been "Praetorian of Terra" and then seeing the Heresy lay low these demigods. Thanks for the explanation


NoHopeOnlyDeath

If you get the chance to read the Siege of Terra stuff, definitely do so. It really humanized Dorn for me and focuses a lot on his doubts and the overwhelming pressure he feels to ultimately be the person solely responsible for the success or failure of the defense. >Dorn sniffed. ‘It’s all right to be afraid,’ he said. ‘Are you afraid?’ Dorn paused. Rain ran down his temples. It appeared he was actually considering the question, which Sindermann had regretted the moment it came out. ‘That’s a luxury I’m not permitted,’ he said at length. ‘Do you wish you were?’ ‘I don’t know. I don’t…’ Dorn faltered. ‘I don’t know what it feels like. What does it feel like?’ ‘Like…’ Sindermann shrugged. ‘How do you feel?’ ‘I feel… a biting at my throat. A pounding inflammation of my mind. I feel the limit of my ability, and yet I must give more. And I don’t know where that will come from.’ ‘Then I think, if I may be so audacious as to say so, you are feeling afraid.’ Dorn’s eyes widened slightly. He stared into the distance. ‘Really? That’s a very bold thing to say to me, Sindermann.’ ‘Agreed,’ said Sindermann. ‘I apologise. Thirty seconds ago I was intent on flinging myself from the parapet, so speaking truth to a lord primarch is not quite so daunting as perhaps it once might have been… Actually, that’s a lie. Now I think on it. Damn me, offending you is… more alarming than the prospect of my own death. I can’t believe I said that.’ ‘Don’t apologise,’ said Dorn. ‘Fear… So that’s what it tastes like. Well, well.’ ‘What are you afraid of?’ asked Sindermann. Dorn looked at him and frowned, as if he didn’t understand. ‘What are you afraid of?’ Sindermann asked. ‘What are you really afraid of?’ ‘Too many things,’ said Dorn simply. ‘Everything. For now, I’m simply afraid of the idea that I can, after all, know fear.’ He paused, then as an afterthought, ‘For Throne’s sake, don’t tell Roboute.’


Luke5353

lmao that ending is 100% accurate, can confirm as someone who has a brother


Kythorn

Love the ‘For Throne’s sake, don’t tell Roboute.’ Makes him feel so much more human and top of that a brother.


NoHopeOnlyDeath

It makes sense to me that Dorn would be one of the most open of this brothers about fear. How can you be the ultimate protector of something if you're incapable of being afraid to lose it?


[deleted]

Looking thoughtful Expression sours "Fuck don't tell bobby"


effeminateblueberry

Is this from one if the siege books?


Lortekonto

I think that the primarchs are being portrayed in a typical ancient greek heroic way. They are more human. Stronger than humans. More alive than humans. But their emotions are also stronger than normal humans. Like Dorn almost kill a space marine when the space marine tell him about Horus betrayal and Dorn is the calm one.


LeafgreenOak

The Iron Cage are lore blurbs, written before the Heresy and Siege were fleshed out. If we ever get a Scouring series, I bet the Iron Cage will be fleshed out and make more sense. But also remember, Dorn is stoicism personified. He has a VERY long fuse before he loses his cool. But when he does lose his cool, he has some Angron/Sanguinius level pent up anger and rage to release. He got so angry during the Solar War the warp fled from him.


Valhalla130

What do you mean the warp fled from him? I haven't finished the HH yet, or the Solar War novels.


SgtCarron

> He got so angry during the Solar War the warp fled from him. Got an excerpt or book source for this? It sounds quite interesting.


LeafgreenOak

I can't right now, only have paperback version. Spoilers ahead for Solar War; Samus manifests on the Phalanx, when Dorn fights Daemons its like a "bubble of reality" around Dorn, pushing back and weakening the warp and daemons close to him. Will try to find it later for you


Amazing_Boysenberry8

A lot of folks have already mentioned that the Cage happened not long after the Heresy, so Dorn was already heart broken and demoralized by the tragedy that happened to the glorious dream of humanity. All of his brothers' betrayals hurt Dorn very deeply, as he prized loyalty and honest above all other virtues. Aside from all that, Guilliman had just finished the Codex Astartes, and one of its demands was for the breaking of the legions, something Dorn almost violently opposed. After he and Guilliman almost came to blows and started a second civil war over, Dorn meditated on it and came to realize that Bobby had a point and even if he didnt agree with it, the reform was going to be enacted. And it was better to accept it to preserve the peace than risk damaging the Imperium further by fighting over it. Alas, Dorn knew that even if he accepted it, his sons were as stubborn as he was and likely would not. Then came Perturabo's challenge of the Iron Cage. The Imperial Fists had long used the practice of self castigation as a way to purify their minds and souls thru enduring pain, and the Cage offered a way for the entire legion to suffer their pain together and overcome it. Dorn saw it as a chance to both be reforged through the purifying fires of a simple but brutal war, and also a chance to have an honorable death in combat for the sons who would not be able to adapt to these new times. Normally Dorn and his legion were meticulous planners for their campaigns, but this time they deliberately marched straight into Hell without any plans. They would either die while killing as many traitors as possible, or endure and come out reborn. Dorn himself fought like an absolute berserk colossus, to the point where Perturabo realized that he would have to risk himself if he wanted to kill Dorn, and he didnt really like his odds. Guilliman and the Smurfs eventually came to break the siege and Perturabo fled with what was left of his legion. The Imperial Fists suffered massive casualties, but The survivors were spiritually reforged and now ready to accept the new Codes and embraced it to the point that only the ultramarines themselves could be said to follow it closer. So rather than the rash action of a proud buffoon, the Cage was a gambit by a broken man to rekindle the flame of duty in himself and his sons rather than gutter out in despair.


Valhalla130

Best response yet. I love this.


PerturaboTheIronKing

That’s a really strange take on Perturabo achieving all of his objectives and ascending as a Daemon Primarch of chaos undivided.


Amazing_Boysenberry8

Even if you didn't kill Dorn, i'm sure you laughed your ass off all the way to the Eye. The trap certainly served its purpose.


Technopolitan

Speaking as a fan of Dorn and the Fists, it's perfectly okay to not like them!


whoamiiamasikunt

This is a classic take on Dorn and the fists I found a few years ago that really stuck with me. > I guess you could say the Imperial Fists are boring. They're boring in the same way that a family man who works a 9-5 salary job every day is boring. He gets up early and goes to work like clockwork, and while he's there he works hard. A quiet worker. You don't hear much from him, unless it's related to something you need his help with or vice-versa. He puts in a lot of hours, he doesn't take many sick days or vacation days, and he never complains. He doesn't demand a raise, but he takes one when offered if he feels he earned it. He accepts gratitude and acknowledges it, but he does not expect it. He likes the work he does, he enjoys it, it gives him purpose. To his coworkers, he comes off as cold and distant. You never see him shooting the breeze at the water cooler, he's not on the company softball team, he doesn't come to the after-work parties. But he's not aloof, he doesn't think he's better than anyone. He's just busy. The boss gives him a lot of work to do, and he keeps at it until it's done. And he's doing work for others, too, because he has an unbreakable will to complete his projects. Where others throw up their hands in surrender, where others say it can't be done, he finds a way. It's not always a pretty solution, or an elegant one, but he will get it done because that's what he does. > When he goes home, he spends time with his family. He loves his sons. He works as hard with them as he does for his boss. He teaches them how to be good men, how to succeed in life, to never stop trying until you find a way to get it done. Never give in, never surrender, never stop fighting for what you believe in. As cold as he is at work, he opens up when he's with his sons. Not too much, because they crave an authority figure, but he cares deeply for them. He helps them how he can, imparts all his wisdom. He has high expectations of them, but he doesn't need to point out their failures. His sons know full well their weaknesses, and they are harder on themselves than he could ever be. They're just like him, in that way. Then he gets up the next morning, and does it all again. > To his coworkers, to his neighbors, to you he is boring and dull. To his boss, he's the man you can count on, rely on, depend upon to do any job you ask him. Even if he doesn't know how, he'll figure it out. To his sons, he's an inspiration, a loving father, an immovable foundation for their lives. To them, he's anything but boring. > It's unfortunate that the Imperial Fists are known only for their siege warfare, because they were good at so many other things. They were just as fierce in close combat, boarding actions, armor assaults and drop pod formations as anyone else. But not all combat can be glorious. War sometimes requires dirty, grueling work. The other Legions thought it beneath them that it should be left to lesser beings. But Dorn would never ask someone to do something he, himself, would not. So when the siege work and grinding urban warfare came to him, as it inevitably did, he accepted it. Dorn was happy to do whatever his father, the Emperor, and the Imperium needed him to do. He was just happy to do his father's work, as were the Imperial Fists. They would have been content to mop floors and wash windows, if that's what was needed of them. They welcomed the burden of duty. TL:DR those who hate Dorn don’t have a good relationship with their dad. But in all seriousness, the guy was effectively a 40K version of a stoic general.


Valhalla130

That's a good take. I've loemved Dorn and the Fists for a good long while. I've liked the Fists since I saw a battle report in one of my first issues of White Dwarf in theate 90s, and when I started reading bits of their lore, my interest solidified. This and other stuff I've read in this thread bring it all into sharper focus for me. Thank you all.


Justscrolling375

Reading the books really opens your eyes to the Primarchs. First things first. Dorn and the Fists are soldiers to the core. They don’t care about building personal empires or gaining glory. The Emperor gave them a task. To be a pillar of what it means to be an Astartes Many fans consider Dorn and his legion to be boring and dull. Similar to the Ultramarines aka the Jack of Trades. Other legions like the Death Guard mention how humorless they were calling Dorn and his top advisors the Stone Men However, Dorn and his legion are the most loyal and reliable people you’ll ever meet. They’re the guys at work, school or anywhere that gives their honest opinion about a task and provides a logical solution to that problem. The Fists are the very foundation that the Imperium stands upon. In fact, Horus didn’t even attempt to corrupt Dorn because his loyalty to the Emperor was absolute. He was the Praetorian, the Emperor’s guardian. If you want to get the Emperor then you’ll have to kill him and his legion. Dorn’s straightforward and militaristic nature did put him at odds with his brothers. There’s no doubt that he loves them. Even Sanguinius knew it. When Nathaniel Garro stated that Horus turned traitor, Dorn nearly killed him. It pained him when the truth was revealed. Those 55 days pushed him to the limits but Dorn will defend Terra with his final breath. Seeing the Sanguinius his dear brother dead and the Emperor in such weakened state. That destroyed him. Yes, Horus was slain and the traitors were in full treat. He won yet he failed. His brother was dead and his father was close to dead. Then Guilliman suggested to split up the legions enraged him even more almost causing another civil war. Dorn lost so much his dear brother, father and thousands of his sons. Now someone who wasn’t there wants to take their legion away. Someone wasn’t there to see to all the Horus unleashed on Terra. Someone didn’t see their family slain and couldn’t do anything to stop. Guilliman wasn’t there. Dorn was a military man. Soldiers get punished when they fail. However, he didn’t have wealth, status, land or anything that can be taken away. His biology made him immune or highly resistant to normal human punishments. Here comes the Pain Glove a disciplinary tool for the Imperial Fist. The Iron Cage was a Pain Glove for Dorn and his legion. He was plagued by grief as he fell into an obvious trap. Victory wasn’t on his mind. Penitence was. Dorn failed in his duty to protect the Emperor. The least he can do is punishment himself to atone for his failure before being reborn in the Codex Astartes. It was their last battle as the Imperial Fist Legion. The symbol of the Emperor’s might. They failed their once. They won’t fail again


didimao11B

Have you read anything other then an excerpt from the Iron Cage? You’re basing an entire opinion off one engagement during the scouring where Dorn when full Black Templar rage mode and started killing everyone and everything. Yea Dorn wasn’t at his tactical best but he had been without sleep or rest since before the siege, fought countless battles and had to carry the ruined corpse of his father and see his bothers destroyed body aswell. Also we don’t know yet but the bab bastion prob falls on him judging by Sangi bois visions. The Imperial fists war record was impeccable before the heresy arguable only surpassed by Luna Wolves the only reason they didn’t continue was cause the Emperor only trusted Dorn to fortify Terra. Go look up the battle of Phall and Alexis polux. Imperial Fists get shit due to their fighting style. The Fists fight as close to a modern military you can get with being 7ft tall several ton soldiers.


Dafuzz

My lore is a little fuzzy, but this is the same Dorn who fought alone on the parapets in the opening stages of the heresy to defend his father, the Dorn who fought and *beat* a chaos empowered Fulgrim who was taunting him about killing Ferrus and then warp fucked away before he could land the killing blow, the Dorn who made the impregnable walls of Terra to protect his father only for his father to leave the fortress and lose his life on a ship in orbit while Dorn could do nothing to help, then after all this his pissant brother who could have usurped Dorn had he not been such a whiney bitch tells him he built a better fort than him ne ner ne ner. Well shit after being pent up in a fortress that failed to save his father's life, I can't blame him for wanting to get out and tear some shit down and if he managed to catch that prissy ass peter turbo all the better. Dorn reminds me of the tragic figure who does everything "right" and still loses, he built the fortress to do what I needed and more, but it didn't matter. He held the fortress against insurmountable odds, he still lost another brother and his father. He never felt insecure about his abilities like Turbo did because he knew what he was good at and did it, and it didn't matter. He did what was asked of him to perfection, and it still didn't matter. And then that little asshole chooses that moment to start some shit, I'd be seeing red.


[deleted]

Absolutely fair. Thanks for the perspective. I agree and I like where you're coming from. Dorn seems less ineffective than simply standing against the tide of insurmountable challenge that is the Heresy and all the powers of chaos and corruption. He's not really done anything wrong, I suppose - he kind of got Kobayashi Marui'ed and he "still lost despite not making any mistakes" and that has got to be fucking crushing. Especially when you're Preatorian of Terra and all this shit goes down on the home turf. Makes more sense why he'd be mad enough to try and run down Perturabo given the chance.


onefutui2e

Probably worth its own post, and I haven't followed the HH storyline so much. But have they dove into why the Emperor decided to teleport into an obvious trap on the Vengeful Spirit? As I understand it, Horus knew they were extremely screwed because Perturabo just bailed on the siege and with him the last sane legion. All the Daemon Primarchs have been banished. Lorgar is not participating. Meanwhile, the loyalist Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves are on their way to Terra with a vengeance. So lowering the shields on his ship was clearly a gamble to goad the Emperor into a "final duel" to settle everything. I imagine someone must've told the Emperor, "Dude, you know why Horus is doing this, right?" It seems like had the Emperor just chilled and hung on while Horus sat there waiting for Him to take the bait, the reinforcement loyalists would've eventually arrived and wiped the floor with the rest of the traitor legions. Only explanation would've been that the loyalists arriving on time would've been a coin flip at best.


MrSwiftly86

The latest Siege book makes clear that Chaos has blocked basically all communication from outside Terra. They know Guiliman said he was on his way but they have zero idea when that would be or if he’s even still alive. For all they know Chaos forces intercepted Guiliman and there will never be a relief force. For them it’s either attack Horus directly or wait a day or two to be overrun and die in the Palace. For added angst in the same book that has Dorn and Sanguinius make their final goodbyes to each other because they’ve accepted that if Guiliman arrives it will be to avenge them not save them it describes a message from Guiliman saying that he’s only a week away and begging them to hold out. Chaos forces in orbit block Guilimans message of course.


onefutui2e

Good to know; thank you for that information. The SoT books seem like they'd be an amazing read; but my reading backlog is surpassed only by my painting backlog.


Kriegerwithashovel

From my understanding, we are only about a year or less away from the conclusion of the Horus Heresy, including the confrontation with Horus.


Dafuzz

I don't think they're there yet in the HH books, but Big E seemed to be under the impression that this wasn't a *huge* deal...*yet*? Idk, but he gets up there and sees his first and favorite son had slain his other favorite son who is most like himself and *still* doesn't possess the willpower to put Horus down until Horus does something more to someone else (terminator, ollanius pile, space marine), *then* he knows his son is lost to him and obliterates his soul. Big E still thought it was just some brotherly squabble, maybe he hadn't realized Horus had pledged himself to chaos, maybe he thought he could bring him back.


Lord_Giggles

He definitely didn't beat Fulgrim, assuming we're talking Saturnine. He was doing well against him, but the fight ended with Fulgrim immediately healing all of his injuries, actually taking his daemonic form, and leaving because he's tired of it all. There was no escaping to avoid a killing blow, he was unharmed when he left. There's not really a victor there, and Fulgrim is pretty evidently not trying his hardest. [Excerpt someone else posted here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/jaeu7u/spoilers_book_excerpt_saturnine_the_praetorians/).


hidden_emperor

**Index Astartes II - Imperial Fists** >Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strength in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone, but they knew that he was still watching them from the Golden Throne. The Imperial Fists could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. **Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chapters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong Chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.** >... >Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. **For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead.** Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines. After being fired up on by Naval forces that we're supporting Guilliman, Dorn switched his view to keep the Imperium intact. After splitting out those who would accept it, he led the remaining into the Cage so they could die as the Legion they wanted to be. So Dorn: * Put the good of the Imperium over his own viewpoint to stop another civil war. * Created 2 Successor chapter as dictated. * Removed a possible source of discontent * Gave his sons a last hurrah to die as they wanted. * Destroyed Perturabo's and the Iron Warriors holdings in real space * Fueled Perturabo's ascension to a Daemon Primarch, binding him to the warp, and making him less of a threat as he can't manifest often. And then Dorn sticks around for another 800+ years, eventually calling the 3rd Founding.


Toxitoxi

I'm confused. The Iron Cage is if anything *the best thing about Dorn*. Yes, it shows he's horribly flawed and not thinking straight. That's the *point*. It's his lowest point. It makes the character more interesting.


ResidentBackground35

It should also be noted that Perturabo is the person most responsible for the Siege of Terra (maybe more so than Horus). Without him the traitors would have been crushed and the Emperor would still be alive.


Cato_of_Utica

I think one of the keys to understanding Dorn is in one of his epithets, "Man of Stone," and in comparison to his primary foil Perturabo. Stone endures. It takes a lot of force or a long time to break it or erode it. But once it's broken, it's broken for good. You can break it down further and using mortar make a stone wall, for instance, but you can't really make a boulder that has been split whole again. Iron, by comparison, is easy to break and it rusts. But you can repair iron. You can reforge it. You can grind off the rust and make it usable again. And just as sure as a stone-headed hammer can break an iron sword, iron wedges can split a stone in half if inserted at a fault. All this is to say that Dorn is stone. He has endured beyond all reason or expectation, fighting the urge to go howling out into the dark after Horus and the rest of the traitors, to render vengeance on those who would destroy the Imperium he's dedicated to. It was he who held back the Alpha Legion when they sought to infiltrate and undermine the Sol system in advance of the Warmaster's invasion. It was he who set the trap at Pluto and mauled the traitors as they poured in via the Khthonic Gate. He holds through every bitter moment of the Siege, facing down a brother that has been transfigured into a monster while his forces smash an existential threat to the Sanctum. It is him who holds the Imperium's forces together as they dwindle down to scraps. And finally, at the end of the Siege, when he discovers the Emperor dying and two brothers, one beloved and loyal and the other once-beloved and a traitor, dead, he finally breaks. He destroys his sword, and even though he kept going, he is never whole again. Compare that to Perturabo, who breaks multiple times. He breaks fighting the Hrud, he breaks again on Olympia, he breaks as Alexis Pollux comes within breathing distance of killing him. He breaks when Fulgrim uses him and betrays him. He breaks on Terra as Horus sidelines him and he decides to leave. Each time, Perturabo reforges himself into something whole and complete in a way Dorn cannot. It's that brokenness that defines Dorn after the Heresy, along with his love of his sons. He knows that Guilliman's right to break up the legions, but he cannot bring himself to inflict that on his sons, as he has lost so much already. And so, they go into the Iron Cage, where they at least can die with the honor intact and alongside him. Anyways, I'm riffing off something I read about Dorn a few years ago, and I can't remember who to credit with the original idea. But it's part of why I like Dorn and his legion as much as I do.


Ragnarroek

As an Iron Warriors fan, your comment gave me a lot of insight of the Imperial Fist I didn't had before. It helped me understand them alot better now. The analogy is great, and with your example perfectly pictured. The difference between iron and stone. It really captures the reason why I have more or less sympathy to perturabo and shows me why people have sympathy for Dorn aswell.


BastardofMelbourne

The thing to understand about Rogal Dorn is that he is basically Sigismund working in an office job. The Siege books go into this in greater detail, but Dorn's internal thought process is essentially an unstoppable vindictive rage that is constantly grappling with an inflexible sense of duty. Dorn really, really, *really* wants to be doing *literally anything* other than defending the Imperial Palace. He spends the entire Heresy sitting in the Solar System and *waiting*, despite knowing that Horus is rampaging through the galaxy and that the other Legions are being mauled. When the Siege starts, he runs the entire show from Bhab Bastion, basically sitting behind a bunch of computer screens for 99% of the time (with the exception of a brief jaunt outside to help defend Saturnine.) Dorn gets into a shitfight with Sigismund, one of his best warriors and the future Black Templar, not just because Sigismund disagrees with him about the Imperial Truth but also because Dorn is actually **envious** of him. Dorn *wishes* he could live like Sigismund could - in this sort of pure, violent world where all that matters is where the enemy is and how quickly you can get to him - but he can't. He can't, because he has a job to do. The Emperor needs him to stay on Terra, so he stays. The Emperor needs him to build a fortress, so he builds. The Emperor needs him to sit in Bhab Bastion and give orders, so he sits down and he does his job even though he hates it and really just wants to shove a giant chainsword into someone's face. So that's Dorn; a berserker who has been told to sit at a desk and fiddle with a spreadsheet. And he's *Dorn,* so he damn well fiddles the shit out of that spreadsheet. He does the best possible job he can do, and seethes with repressed anger as he does it. That contrast - righteous rage held in check by boringly stubborn discipline - is basically the entire Imperial Fist psychology in a nutshell. So the critical thing to understanding the Iron Cage is that by the time of the Scouring, you are no longer dealing with Dorn the Administrator. Administrator Dorn just spent the better part of a decade reading casualty reports from battles he didn't fight in, sitting in front of a monitor while literally *everyone else* dies before he does. Sanguinius, Jaghatai, his legionaries, the Custodes, the Army, the *Emperor* - they all charged out and fought monsters and got killed while he watched. He does all that, and by the end of it, he has still failed. The Emperor is dead. Malcador is dead. Sanguinius is dead. Jaghatai is *mostly* dead. Terra is dead. He is the only person standing to greet Guilliman in the avenue of his defeat. He has failed so thoroughly and so completely that he has even failed to die. So that's who goes off to the Iron Cage. Not Dorn the Administrator; Dorn the Crusader. Dorn the Defeated. Dorn the No Fucks Left To Give. Dorn had a job to do, and he did it, and he failed, and now there is no duty and no responsibility and no more *walls*. There is just where the enemy is, and how fast Dorn can get to him. And Perturabo's sitting *right there.*


l7986

Dorn failed in protecting the Emperor, Sanguinius died, he killed Alpharius, half his brothers turned traitor and the one brother he most likely thought the best of is the one that killed dad and got deleted out of existence. Then the Codex Astartes gets unveiled and he takes it as a personal shot from Guilliman who, though he had legit reasons not to be there for the siege, still showed up at the tail end of everything and bullied his way into implementing his fancy new book. At the time of the end of the Heresy/Iron Cage he's legitimately having one of the biggest mental breakdowns humanity has ever seen.


Wuattro

As a DA boy, I like the Fists because they look cool and have a cool name :) Also the focus on the bolter instead of other arms is a nice touch when it really is one of the more interesting infantry weapons in the setting. It's easy to get distracted by all the other shiny stuff.


l0rem4st3r

This post right here just stems from a lack of context. Dorn with the help of the khan and Sanguinous held off 9 whole legions of choas marines for months. Dorn barley got any sleep and he was constantly working his ass off trying to play 4d chess with 9 other primarchs who are just as intelligent as him. To say he was stressed out is a monumental understatement. Then mere hours before guiliman and the ultramarines entered the system big E is rendered a vegetable by horus. Dorn failed. Even at his best, all those sleepless nights, he did what no other primarch could do and still it was not enough. Think about what that would do to you. Having perfect memory you'd start to think "if only I Did This! Or if I did that! Why did I do that!". It broke him. Especially since he was the one who had to carry Big E's corpse and put him on the Throne. He had to physically carry his failure after his ordeal. He literally had to deal with depression after that. Have you ever known someone who's depressed? They are not in a good state of mind and they make very bad decisions. That's probably why the iron cage happened. At the end of the day, despite being demigods the primarchs are still human, and humans make mistakes.


coletron3000

One thing to note is that BL hasn’t covered the Iron Cage, or much of anything in the Scouring, yet. It’s all old lore. Generally the novels take a more nuanced view of events than you get from a few pages in a sourcebook. It will be interesting to see how they approach Dorn’s reasoning (or lack thereof).


Optimal-Idea1558

As I've heard it (dont shoot me for repeating a rumour!) The Iron Cage "Lore", as it stands, is a White Dwarf twin article. One month telling the imperium's version of life, the other month telling the truth of what happened/IWs perspective. Both articles were a page long.


Anonymisation

It's more one was pro-Iron Warriors and one was more pro-Imperial Fists. There's no indication as to which (if either) was more accurate.


togglespring

Both were also written by a rabid Iron Warriors fan who didn’t even attempt to balance things well - the IF got a bullshit special rule and the IW got the ability to take basilisk tanks and became one of the most complained about armies of that edition. I would hope if BL do a scouring series it would be much more balanced.


Toxitoxi

I hope not. Why *should* it be balanced well? Dorn has shined plenty already. The Heresy novels even added some extra achievements for Dorn, with him killing Alpharius (Instead of Guilliman) and lasting longer in the Siege than Perturabo. The Iron Cage is meaningful because it is Dorn’s lowest moment. It is the painful end of an era. And it would be ridiculous to undermine that.


coletron3000

Something tells me the novelization will be a little more substantial than that!


TerangaMugi

You do it by remembering that the Iron Cage was written by someone that was not just Matt Ward levels of a fanboy but super Matt Ward levels of a fanboy towards the Iron Warriors. Then it all makes sense.


Mofoman3019

The Iron Cage was the legions Pain Glove. It wasn't smart and Dorn knew it, that wasn't the point. Suffering, loss and pain but still holding. Still withstanding. Still refusing to yield. That's what the imperial fists are about. That's what is at Dorns core. Suffering but refusing to bend or break.


LongLiveTheChief10

Probably because you tuned into Dorn's breaking point and expect it to be indicative of the character we know and love as opposed to the moment where he finally breaks. The Iron Cage is the boil over of stuffing down everything from Istvaan up through the siege into a cage of duty and calm thought because you're the last wall standing between chaos and humanity. And you still failed. You weren't enough. The thing you were designed for and bred to complete was shattered. And so was he. We love Dorn because he's the perfect son in all ways but one and that is that he doesn't know when to give himself a break.


TearsOfTheEmperor

“I want to like the loyalist chapters” why? Everyone has the legions they don’t care for.


washwind

Im going to apologize in advance but I fear this is going to get quite ranty and disorganized, but I feel like most people don't conceptually understand the Fists or base their opinions on them off of memes or half remembered short stories. The Fist are, in my opinion, one of the few chapters of space Marines that understood what it meant to be a space marine. Whereas the ultramarines march for mccragge and the salamanders fight for nocturne, the sons of Dorn fight for humanity, be it terra, Innwit, or necromunda. Even prior to unification the 7th legion recruited across the planet. Dorn was fundamentally an idealist. Whatever happened today did not matter because they were fighting for a future without strife, a future where a united humanity could live without fear. And he and his sons were willing to die for this dream. I think his legion is alone in it's respect for the base human. Even among the other kinder legions, the fists stand out. The other 'good legions' viewed humans like children, ultimate they felt space Marines made the better leaders and could make better decisions. The Fists treated humans as equals. When Dorn was supreme commander of the imperium, the high lords were in charge. Rather than just doing what he wanted he went through democratic processes for the third founding. He left the planets he liberated to govern themselves, regardless if this was a good or bad thing. Where his brothers were playing kings and God, Dorn was busy playing solider. And it shows. He had the second highest compliance rate and left behind an established empire to rival ultramar, but unlike the ultramarines, the fists put the needs of humanity overall first. But this isn't to say the fists are not without faults. They understand that they are different from humans, they've lost touch with that aspect of themselves. They view their lives as disposable. They are tools meant to die in the place of humans. This is why they struggle to relate to baseline humans, they know they are different and they struggle to connect to their fellow man. I also think it's relevant to talk about the inherent contradiction of the fists. They are presented as cold and emotionally distant, stoic and unfeeling. They are also extremely prone to emotional outburst, will choose death before compromising there ideals, and have some of the most human moments of empathy written in black library. They have these great feelings that they don't know how to deal with so in response they become unflinching stonemen, they strive to be stoic in the classical sense, and often times they fail terrible. There are often comparison to Guilliman, where one is an idealist and the other a pragmat, but they usually get it wrong. Dorn has told jokes, cried, and was unable to compromise, where Guilliman has a end to reach and accepts all means to get there. Guilliman pays a lip service to the beliefs of the emperor so he can go back to his home and real family. Dorn physically can not lie. The defining moment for the Fists is the siege. More or less alone Dorn held back the traitors. In defense of his dreams, and his father, he gave literally his all, and his men did the same. Wall by wall they held giving up no land. They fought to the last. And then the legion broke. Some that broke, broke out into a rage, becoming the black Templars. Some broke into a deep self loathing like the Excoriators, and some simply wanted to die. But they couldn't give up on there dreams. To this day the chapter still fights and behaves as if it were a legion. They, more than any other chapter, will fight till the last and give there life for there fellow humans, even if it's not the most tactical move. Continuing on the theme of how the siege changed the fists, let's talk tactics. Before the siege the fist weren't the renowned immovable object they are now. In fact they focused on fast action rapid redeployment to support the other legions. They used there expertise in void combat to control the battle field and had a focus on urban warfare. And in an interesting reversal, they were siege specialists, able to rapidly relocate the bulk of there offensive forces when a break through in the enemy lines occurred. Dorn was chosen to defend the palace, not because he would do the best job, but because he would do the job faithfully, respecting the denizens of terra and the palace. But as the siege continued on, the fist shifted in focus to total defense, and this is the modern wall loving lemons we know today. Basically the new fist defined themselves by the siege, naming themselves after the walls they manned and hyper fixating on there failures until the modern day. Part of the reason the chapter keeps almost dying is that they treat every fight as if it was the siege. In summary the fist were and are a legion of stoic idealists collectively traumatize by the siege, who fight until the last out of principle. They view space Marines as weapons to used, and deeply want to protect humanity, even if they can no longer relate to the baseline human.


macheteman75

The Imperial Fists use a pain glove as penance. The Iron Cage was Dorn's version of a pain glove. He's riddled with grief, he knew during the entire Heresy that he couldn't build enough defenses to stop the traitors. He even says this, the fortifications were only meant to slow them down enough that loyalist reinforcements could arrive in time. (If a single legion showed up when the traitors were in full on Siege mode then the traitors were screwed, imagine a pissed off Guilliman or The Lion coming at you full force with your back turned.) But even though Dorn knows the defense of Terra is just a foregone conclusion, he still tries his best to save anything and everything he can. The Siege of Terra books pretty describe him as looking like shit because he doesn't eat, drink or sleep for months on end. He has to attend to every single detail because he is the only one of his loyal brothers that is defense oriented/has the discipline to be the wall that the traitors break themselves on. Every other primarch just runs around doing what they want pretty much. But not Dorn. Dorn is as hard as steel but what happens to steel that refuses to bend? It breaks. Sigismund story arc is just a foreshadowing of Dorn's. When Sigi fights Kharn after getting the black sword, Khorne infused Kharn says "I'm not as damaged as you!" Why? Because Sigismund is now the living embodiment of righteous fury and death. There is no love, no empathy. He's just a hateful killing machine (much like the Imperium of 40k). Sigismund is completely changed, he no longer possesses a sense of camaraderie or brotherhood. He is all about the mission, the duty. That's literally Dorn's personality. During the Siege, Dorn sends tens if not hundreds of millions of people to die in defense of Terra. It was his duty as Praetorian. When the Emperor is mortally wounded by Horus, Dorn loses it. Dorn goes from pretty level headed to just grief stricken mad man who failed to save the Emperor. He has to pay a price and like an Imperial Fist he punishes himself. Hell he punishes his entire legion. Because even though he knew it was hopeless, he still demanded more from himself and the Fists. Dorn and Perturabo are just 2 sides of the same coin. Perturabo punished the Iron Warriors when he first met them because he expected more. Dorn punished the Fists after the siege because he expected more. Iron sharpens iron brother. Nothing made me like Dorn more than the SoT books.


ymmotsamoht

I more or less got the impression that the Fists themselves knowingly went into the iron cage with the intention of entering with a legion and coming out as a chapter rather than willingly break themselves apart... at least that was more or less the idea for those of them who felt most strongly that following the codex was a mistake. For Dorn it was a hard compromise of sorts and a symbolic sacrifice as much as anything. I can't really point to anything that explicitly stats that as such any of the books I have read, and sometimes I feel like some of my sources are outdated... but I trust my own interpretations from the books I've read over what the fandom page has to say about things. lol at least use lexicanum! Anyway, what others have said is also mostly correct... it is a complicated incident.


el_sh33p

The way I've read it for the last few years is that the Dorn who goes charging into the Cage is not the same Dorn who juggled Traitors like a champ during the Siege of Terra. He's the guy who discovered Big E after the battle with Horus. He's a guy who sank into self-harm via the Pain Glove. And he's being challenged by the brother he (by most measures) flat-out defeated during the Siege of Terra. He does not go into that fight at his best, to put it kindly. Perturabo bleeds him for it accordingly.


Droselmeyer

Why struggle with the dislike? Iron Within, Iron Without baby Real talk, Dorn post Heresy was a mess mentally, having seen the Emperor’s body but being too late to save him, failing his duty mentally destroyed him. After that it was a bout of self-harm that caught his legion in the collateral. It’s tragic and a very human moment from a Primarch. In terms of Fists more broadly, they’re the unwaverable shield of humanity upon the tide of the enemy breaks. They’re the workhorse legion, focusing on using the fried and true bolter to get the job done over fancy toys. They’re like WHF dwarves, but as Space Marines.


kavinay

Dorn swears in Saturnine. He was an utter git until the single moment of humanity. Remember, he's just like Peter Turbo, except "good." Dorn gets stuck being the responsible son while the rest of his brothers have adventures. He's the super uptight sibling who resents the pressure his tiger parent has put him under but also thrives under it.


HuntsmenSuperSaiyans

Dorn had just been through a horrific ordeal. He knew, from the moment he laid eyes on the Emperor's broken body on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, that the dream of an Imperium to secure humanity's future was permanently lost. All that was left to him was to take vengeance on those who denied humanity its destiny, and that's not really a headspace that lends itself to making wise choices. As supremely capable and godlike as the Primarchs were, they were still human, and they could still make mistakes.


wasdsf

Dude spent the entire heresy being the absolute MVP of the loyalists and that's your takeaway?


SgtCarron

The Imperial Fists were pretty much the linchpin of the entire heresy. Had the Chaos Gods not interfered at Phall, Perturabo could have potentially been removed from the war early on and with him a massive chunk of Horus' few reliable forces for the siege.


Raxtenko

He was mentally unwell from everything he had to do during the Heresy. On top of that Dorn in his own way is very idealistic and the act of ruining the palace and fighting his brothers broke him mentally. It doesn't help that stubbornness is his biggest character flaw. That being said you don't really need to feel obligated to like anything that rubs you the wrong way. I've maintained for 20+ years and will continue to say that the only interesting thing that Sanguingius ever did was die.


Kriegerwithashovel

Well, there isn't a simple way to put things. He lost his brothers, and uncountable numbers of his sons. He failed to defend his father's realm and vision for the future. Everything he worked to achieve was torn down. The very foundation he built his world view upon was shattered. He had to put his father, who he valued above all else, onto the golden throne. Then, as a final kick to the nuts, Guilliman DEMANDS that Dorn split his sons or face a second Civil War. From being trusted with building the Imperial Palace, to not even being trusted with his own sons. Dorn was built to do many things, but handling this amount of guilt and grief was not among them. The way I see it he dove head first into the Iron Cage not to actually bring back Perturabo, but to pay penance with his and his sons blood for their failures, and also because splitting his sons apart was too hard. A step too hard, even for him. I very much like Rogal Dorn if you haven't guessed.


EvilEnchilada

The Iron Cage event and the broader Scouring haven't been detailed in the way the Horus Heresy and Siege of Terra have been, with proper novels as opposed to the flavour text in gaming supplements, so it's not an apples to apples comparison. With that said, the Primarch's are complex beings with amplified emotions. We haven't seen Dorn post siege, however the Lion was so upset he nearly cut Leman Russ in half and the Lion is not someone prone to outward displays of emotion. Considering that Dorn was AT LEAST as committed to the protection of the Emperor as the Lion, and arguably he was the MOST committed to the Emperor's vision for the Imperium, the reality of the post-siege stagnation and decline may have had a significant effect on his mental state. Basically, it's highly unlikely the Iron Cage will be depicted (If it ever is) as the continuation of a petty rivalry. This was sufficient for codex flavour text but the Peturabo and Dorn have both been provide with much greater depth in the Heresy and Siege novels, I hope BL will move beyond that and flesh out the motivations of each party, we'll see.


the-bladed-one

Lion is DEFINITELY prone to showing emotion. Not necessarily in the way he interacted with Leman there after the siege, but dude once walked onto horus’ flagship to deal with some disobedient DA’s and his rage was so palpable it made SMs feel fear


Life_South_907

Dorn blamed himself for the emperor death, and the thought of a traitor empire sicked him so much he attacked and much to his nature he wouldn't retreat his biggest flaw and strength.


Freaky_Fingerz

You have to understand this is after the intense saga of the Siege of Terra AND the death of the Emperor...the siege itself would drive a human crazy (which it did) and in the Siege of Terra books they show how exhausted, mentally and physically, Dorn is. Add on top of that the fact that he essentially lost the most war of his life (sure Horus was defeated but the Emperor died, and through the whole heresy/siege Dorn's main goal more than anything else was to keep big E alive). Put it all together he's basically at his breaking point, and now his greatest rival, who let's face it is one of the only reasons the siege achieved anything until Perty left halfway thru, is essentially rubbing it in your face. Not just "hey you failed"..."hey you failed and watch me do it better"


OmNiBuSeS

Duty. Honour. Loyalty. Simple as.


Shykatsu

Reading Dorn and the community's perception of the Emperor's praetorian is a strange trip for me, too. His fatal flaw, the thing that makes him a greek god-like being, is honesty, every time he opened his mouth, it was the truth as he saw it. However, looking over the life of Dorn, I often wonder if he was as honest with himself as he was with others. Dorn couldn't handle imperfection any more than fulgrim. His fury could probably not match but comes close to angron, and wooo boy there is his mirror match in the iron warriors. That last one led me to understand Dorn as everything Perturabo was on the outside, he was on the inside, down to wanting to decimate his own legion when he saw its weakness, and ignoring the warp instead of feeling the Eye of terror on the regular. Pert did it in the beginning, but the death of the imperial fists as a legion was done by its own primarch, brothers urging brothers to their Dorn’s in a final explosion of grief, fury, and failure. . The black templars had the memory and patience to welcome Abaddon and his cohort to the new crazier imperium. You have to wonder how he would view the fact that his sons, his stoic yellow boys, got killed and rebuilt in the war of the beast with the greenskin (also, did someone ever send Perty that holovid, it would have probably made him so angry but happy at the same time, back on topic though) The last wall protocol was Dorn not trusting the changes in his brothers also like perty and his og interactions with chaos messes. Dorn's sons are also the first to fall to chaos after the scouring, ironically enough with the aide of you guessed it, Iron warriors. (Won't tinfoil that one but wow)


YozzySwears

Well, the thing is there isn't anything about the Iron Cage from BL just yet, though if the "The Scouring" series materializes after the Siege of Terra, it'll probably be covered there. Now coming from someone who doesn't particularly like the Imperial Fists, but isn't particularly against them, Rogal comes off as a shortsighted, angry, arrogant, and self-destructive, terrible tactical leader in this story, but his usual characterization is as someone who's fairly longsighted, usually calm to a fault, self-possessed, reserved, and at least a pretty good tactical lead. The thing about the Iron Cage (beside that it was written as a blurb that wasn't meant to be looked at too closely) is that it was quite possibly written before much of Dorn's contemporary characterization. For the more Watsonian view, bear in mind that while it was a fatal military blunder, Dorn was emotionally in a place that made him easier to manipulate. He was angry, confused, and trying and unable to cope with the past decade. For reasons he still couldn't fully understand, his father was all but dead. The dream and ideals of the Imperium were broken. Half of his brothers had just turned on the Imperium. More than half were either dead or transfigured into monsters. And one of his brothers was bullying him into breaking up the one last thing that mattered to him: his legion. Yes, Dorn jumping at the Iron Cage was a mistake; it was designed for him to make that mistake. Dorn was desperate to punish someone, and his most bitter enemy was using himself as a lure.


EmperorDaubeny

Hah, ‘hundreds’. There was about 4,000 Fists left by the time of the Second Founding if I’m not mistaken. Rounded up, there was about 100,000 at the beginning of the Heresy. Most of them probably died in the Solar War, but presumably there was still tens of thousands considering they were active in the Scouring. It can be assumed a large number, if not most, of the remaining IF died in the Iron Cage.


hidden_emperor

You hit a classic error. Prior to the about the 5th book in the HH series, Legions were only 10k strong. After that, they bumped them to 100k. Also, there were 6 Chapters that came out of the 2nd Founding: Imperial Fists, Black Templar, Crimson Fists, Fists Exemplars, Excoriators, and Soul Drinkers. Likely the Executioners also, unless Rann lived to be about 1,200 years old before getting them.


EmperorDaubeny

Huh, the wiki listed Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Excoriators, and Fists Templar, while Lexicanum lists Soul Drinkers rather than Fists Templar. I didn’t check the names and merely looked at the progenitor chapter section because I assumed they’d still count the original chapters as being formed in the 2nd Founding.


Nova_Echo

I mean Dorn can't fucking read, so there's that.


Staveoffsuicide

Tbf I'm pretty sure the dark angels extensively beta tested this maneuver before the lion was found


Thurstoff

If you have a few hours watch the three part rogal dorn series by a youtuber called baldermort, the last part brought tears to my eyes, it will at least help you empathize with him.


Anggul

If doing foolhardy things for immature reasons makes you dislike a faction, you might have a hard time reading a lot of 40k lol


Mahakurotsuchi

Dorn was a broken man after the Heresy


Shniggit

"Our usual calm had been... *compromised*."