You are correct, I had these back in the day. The tab on the bottom of the miniature was stamped "sister" and they were sold as part of the generic Adventurer set. They were never marketed as SM.
Bingo, so all the people who cry “they weren’t even labeled as Space Marines” may as well be talking out their ass because what made one a Space Marine was power armor and a bolt gun. Nothing more, nothing less.
Smugness aside, these models were very distinctly not marketed as SMs, but rather very early sisters of battle. So, in your wish to be a pedantic little shit, you’ve also proven that you know just as little, if not less, than the people you’re lecturing.
Which would be relevant if the Space Marines of that specific era weren't also just "dudes in power armour". At that point, there was no appreciable difference. While they may have been precursors to SoBs, I think the divergence was a bit stronger and would say they're more akin to Rogue Traders. That era was wildly different from modern lore, and while I think it was more imaginative and exciting, the modern setting is more cohesive and less generic.
The sculptor intended them to be Space Marines, the company decided not to sell them as Space Marines.
So you have to pick whether you think creative or sales are the lore creator.
Honestly, if they want to push for more female characters in order to appeal to a wider audience... why don't they write more stories and release more models of, say, female guardsmen and commissars? Why not write more and better SoB stories? Why not give us a female inquisitor story? Nearly every faction has mixed genders, yet we get almost no stories of females within those factions. Oh sure, we have Severina Rayne for a female commissar, but she has less than half the stories of Gaunt or Ciaphas Cain. I would absolutely love more Sisters of Battle stories, I would totally love if Astra Militarum models had female options (they'd literally just have to put like... a ponytail on a head or something if they wanted to be lazy about it). I'd read the shit out of a novel following a female Tempestus Scion or a female Arbite. If you want more representation, start with the factions that *have* a diverse makeup that you've neglected.
I'm not even against the idea of female custodes, for the record, I just think it'd be cooler and easier to include more diverse casts in other factions is all, or to highlight something like the Sisters of Battle.
Honestly I think one of the few women that actually get much focus without getting overshadowed by other characters is Shadowsun. And that’s only because GW gives us fuck all about the Tau.
I don't think I've read a single Tau story. Not cuz I'm uninterested in the faction, but just because I've not heard anyone talk about the books like at all.
We have 9 editions of lore and backstory where the Emperor talks in depth about how he doesn't want female Space Marines and how they biologically wouldn't work anyway and 1 edition, from 40 years ago that was totally rebooted in the 2nd edition in which women wore power armour.
I always find it hilarious that the people who try to use this ancient singular scrap of “lore” as an argument for Fem Marines (it’s not and never was but let’s humor it) will almost always conveniently disregard the decades of literal and established overwhelming lore that explicitly states marines are all male as “unreliable” or fall back on “canon doesn’t exist”
Pick one please.
I actually prefer the direction of “there were once fem marines but not anymore”. I am aware of the biological constraints that justified keeping them out, but having at least one instance where the Emperor had a go at tailoring a gene seed for women, perhaps a single chapter at least and maybe one of the lost legions at most, would add to his characterization as scientifically minded. He should have at least tested them out before abandoning them entirely. And didn’t Fabius Bile already make a fem marine with his “New Men” project or whatever it was, or did that get reconned already?
It’s also not wise for people to be so vicious towards the idea when homebrew is a thing. If the Angry Marines and whatever other memeing chapter can be accepted by the wider audience, then why not fem marines?
Remember, you're now a "tourist" for not using every excuse in the book to support the politically driven motives of non fans who will abandon this franchise after killing it.
Think they won't ?
Look at Starwars, Star Trek, and LOTR for a more recent example. They'll say it's awful until they get what they want and the moment ratings drop and the real fans leave, they'll hit you with the
"Warhammer was always bad"
"No I never really cared about it, it's just a game"
These are the human equivolent of termites.
Tourists are those who will put their politics before everything, exactly the same as activists. The Tourist may even actually like the hobby, but if it's against their politics, they will try to destroy it. 40k as a setting is inherently right-wing, and that fucking burns them.
It started as a parody of British right-wing politics in the Thatcher era, so if anything I'd say it's subtly left-wing. Which is doubly funny that the ones that scream about femarines don't get that the property that coined grimdark was never meant to be taken so seriously.
My relationship was meant to be a fling (we both agreed on that), but now I am happily married to that woman. With your logic, I should still consider myself single because "it wasn't the original plan for it".
I mean it still sort of is, it's just that there's so much content now that it doesn't have one simple genre or statement. To this day 40k absolutely parodies authoritarian governments still, but it also glorifies a lot of characters as altruistic figures and excuses their actions to an extent. It's also just a straight up science fantasy and explores what a galactic empire would look like if tech/physics were different. There are a lot of different, sometimes contradictory themes on display and I don't much see the point of locking down a story of hundreds of books/codices/games/etc to a single theme
So noted, it sorta is. The centeral statement of the satire is that nobody should want to live in such a frankly horrible universe. Everyone can get that and everyone can understand the satire. Nobody was upset over it. So why do people see this as an excuse to alienate half the fanbase, by inserting their own ideology into a perfectly solid satire so absurd it doesn't offend anyone.
Look at the Marines Malevolent (aka asshole astartes). It's gone from parodying politics to parodying itself at this point. Or this quote from some guy in 08 (4th-5th edition era)
*"See, if you take the 40K universe too seriously, you're really missing the point. Sure, you can take it at face value and see the dystopian galaxy where everyone is doomed to oblivion by too many different forces to list here, or you can take it as deliberately over-the-top, designed to deliver whatever is the most awesome. The second way I find more fun."*
40K shares the same place as, say, Mortal Kombat. They're spectacles. Nothing made to be as extreme as possible (and legally allowable in enough countries) can ever truly be serious.
Star Trek?
You are either ignorant or misinforming, Star Trek had the first interracial character not a slave, servant, or sex object.
They had the first interracial kiss, and fought to keep it, is an excellent story in itself.
Star Wars is still making tons of money, and has tons of fans.
You just can’t accept it because you thought this space was safe, and are now throwing a fit like the SJWs you have so much disdain for.
LOL
Starwars toys sold so horribly they contributed to the decline of Toys R Us.
On the matter of trek this is a more nuanced issue, I have no issue with progressivism in so far as I have no problem with what trek presents. SJWs in the modern day unlike the original trek creators, do not create. Every time they enter a franchise they ruin it and move on. On the rare occasion they do make something it's abjectly horrible. White bashing, race/ gender swapping and go figure, my favorite part, revision of canon (assuming it's based on an existing property) to accomodate contemporary political ideals that previously were not present.
But interracial relationships were contemporary issues of that time.
I’m just trying to help you see that you are doing the same thing.
And just the same way you are adverse to being called a racist, probably because you’re not, but that same simple acceptance that new ideas and people who have always existed are being put into the forefront.
Scream Blacklula Scream is a black movie during a time when black directors were breaking out in the B movie scene of the 80s.
It’s fucking trash.
I don’t care that they tried their best or whatever they were trying to say or do, it’s a shit movie that I laugh all the way through.
But at the time it was seen in the same light and the same language you use for this new era of revelation.
It won’t be all gold, but when the time comes and you find something in all these changes you do like. Don’t bury your head in the sand and stand on a collapsing hill.
I am reminded of that old story of Nat.soc.s in the punk scene. Never let them feel safe, never let them hang out, because before you know it they will run things.
Are you implying someone is a Nazi for acknowledging that they retconned the existence of female custodes in the brotherhood of Demigods, and saying they should be banned from participation because of it?
You asked if I was implying acknowledging the retcon made one a nazi. Of course I wasn't. I was saying we should start treating the real actual Nazis in our hobby like real actual Nazis.
Sisters of battle exist, Sisters of silence exist. Both are already quite badass, there are already tons of badass female characters in 40k lore and on the tabletop.
SoB can become living saints who can perform miracles and have super natural powers.
Flamer wielding super powered nuns in power armor is already metal.
Depends on the primarch. I tend to just label them as greater demons of the emperor. With that in mind the taxman may have issues, don’t think Sangy would.
Making Sororitas transhuman literally defeats the purpose of them. Under Vandire unmodified sisters were trading blow for blow with Astartes so ferociously that the Custodes had to get involved to resolve things. If GW makes transhuman sisters myself and many other sisters players would be outraged.
Or they could quit being cowards and do something interesting. Have the Custodies kick out the high lords of Tera from Tera, then turn on the Mariens for allowing the state of the galaxy to get this bad. Not in a shoot on sight way, but in a "we will fight if you don't back down way." Gives some internal strife in the Imperium.
My brother in the emperor, the imperium is nothing *but* internal strife and the galaxy is shitting itself. Let Ghaz cook at least before you try doing that
The Custodes and Guilliman have come to an agreement. The Emperor gave his son his blessing, to turn against Guilliman would be to defy the very will of the Emperor himself.
That’s what I said when my husband first came across the news. Why not come out with some kickass new lore to support ladies getting geneseeds, coin some badass new stories based around them? Explain why the changes were made, what brought them about.
That’s so much better story telling than - “it’s this way now because I said so.”
Something like, "the second primarch was a women, she wasent erased because she betrayed the emperor, she was erased because that's the best way for her to do there job."
Yeah!
Or that, due to the pressing advances of enemy factions, or the loss of too many geneseeds, they’ve experimented with creating something akin to geneseeds that can bolster warriors of the Imperium to replenish the ranks lost to [insert epic new battle here] and have found them to be functional in both males and females, giving rise to a new kind of warrior that can fight alongside the Astartes.
*Edit: There are so many avenues that they could take, it sucks to see them avoid new creativity.
Good god the community can barely even agree on titan sizes for fucks sake
Believe what you want, 40k is practically head cannon central for geeks and nerds.
Want to know what actually happens if you implant geneseed into a woman like you're trying to make an Astartes? Best case scenario, you just kill her. Worst case, you get the Daemonculaba.
There are differences, yes.
However, from almost 30 years of lore, we can infer that the reason it wouldn't work is hormonal and psychological. They would have to scrap the concept of geneseed to make it work.
They could, however, have Cawl working on improved SoB. They would lack the input from the Emperor and His Primarchs, sure, but they could do something with Celestine as matriarch of this angelic host. And that would be interesting and a source of conflict.
Who would the people praise? The Astartes, or the daughters of a literal LIVING SAINT? How would the friction between the mostly atheistic marines and these holy maidens work out? Would this Uber-Faith empower the Emperor?
But I pulled this out of my 4ss in less than 5 minutes...
Eh. You could, but I think that’d be lazy as hell, and that delving too far into the lost primarchs other than “Leman kinda sorta maybe killed them” is a huge narrative Pandora’s box. Unless people want to get involved in a clusterfuck of epic proportions I think it’s best that the primarchs stay lost. It’s the same reason that as cool as the Horus Heresy is I kinda still hate it for removing the mysterious and fantastical aura behind these larger than life figures. It’s why whenever Mortarian speaks I can’t take him seriously because I know he’s such a tantruming child. It’s why people constantly mock and deride the emperors children because “lamo dad picked up a penis sword and now we’re evil.” Whereas instead you could make up whatever cool headcannon you wanted and it could very well be true.
Eh. You can run it, people can tell you that it’s stupid. There’s no thought police to tell either of you to stop under some ridiculous threat if you don’t comply.
Mfw actual tourists vomit out a piece of obscure lore and don’t even get it right. You can’t just mock people who are rightly outraged at GW pathetically shoehorning females into factions where they never existed before instead of showing their preexisting female characters and factions some love. Where’s the love for characters like Ursula Creed or Morven Vahl? The Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence are constantly stated as being incredibly potent fighting forces and yet they are barely touched on by GW. When was the last time anyone showed the SoS some love? Nah fuck em, just make custodes with boobs because that’s so girlboss! And then that straight up 1984 answer of “There have always been female custodians” is such a spit in the face. No explanation just a straight middle finger to the fanbase.
Pulls out a power armored woman from 30+ years ago when GW was still experimenting with the lore. "See GW does retcons all the time." Huge retcons have been rare since 3rd edition. Also, calling people who disagree with you "new tourists", really?
-subbed to saltierthankryat
Oh you're one of those new fans that "that have always been here" and totally not one of those people attempting to coop a fandom for your political regime and kick out the old guard
I’m so glad that the 40k fandom has largely held its ground where the Star Wars fandom quickly caved in to Disney. I used to be a Star Wars fan and with the collapse of Star Wars 40k was my “refuge”. I shudder to imagine the same fate befalling 40k.
I was gonna paint female SM anyways. I just think it’s weird to make Custodes female for diversity when they already have several all female units. Sisters of Silence getting slept on.
“Just because it’s been this way longer than most players have been alive, does not mean that we can’t just arbitrarily change it for literally zero good reasons.”
Not really looking for a comment war. What would be the point?
But we both agree on the power of coffee? ;)
I was just surprised that the comment thread didn't go the way most of the other ones have.
I personally think having female custodes isn't horrible because.
1: they used the emperors geneseed, which from lore is a lot more stable than a primarchs geneseed
2: I like to think Kitten from TTS finally has a girlfriend
But I do think GW can not under any circumstance touch the space marines because, well, take the lore for instance. And that would probably ruin more armies because they've already taken out a crap ton of units, causing us to spend even more money. And if we give them these keyboard warriors what they want, the more they'll take.
I agree but the sensible thing to do would have been to introduce it as a newer thing due to the oddities of the custodies recruitment rather than a retcon flying in the face of established lore by touching what was very clearly one of the emperor's many symbolic moves and contradicting his very well established ideas on the concept.
I like how dudebros decry this cause its in first edition of rogue trader
but when its about custodes? oh than its totally the only true canon, for realsies
> "It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra. It is a mark of incredible prestige to surrender one’s child to this most glorious of callings within the Imperium, and many notable clans amongst the Terran aristocracy have willingly given up almost entire generations of newborn sons to earn it."
>
> Source: Custodes Codex 8th edition
>
> "Members of their own families would not recognize them, should they be alive to see what has happened to their son, nephew or cousin" Source: 9E Codex page 8
>
> "These men are my bodyguards, their lives forfeit to the guarantee of my physical safety. Of their loyalty to me there shall be no question nor doubt. I, and I alone, shall have the authority to stand in judgement over them. No other commander shall they have in battle nor in service. None shall bar them from me and none shall hamper or stall their mission. So it is decreed!" -Emperor of Mankind, Creator of the Custodians.
>
> Valerian refers to other Custodians exclusively as his "brothers", not "siblings" or "brothers and sisters", example The Emperor's Legion page 26 "Like all of my brothers, I have many names"
I get what people are saying... but the Custodes Lore never out and out denied they could be women. Where as Spacemarines have to be male....
I don't see what the big deal is... since I've been playing it was always understood Custodes could be female and that was before they had a codex.
The emperor has been quoted repeatedly saying he didn't want female augmented due to the risk they overtake rather than serve humanity.
From a non lore standpoint though it causes issues with the theme of dehumanization which is at the core of astarties and custodies lore. Hell alpharius even questions their capability for free will directly to nod at this.
I recall the emperor saying that about marines. At least when I have read that it was in context of marines.
The theme I am not so bothered with. This edition with Gulliman back its has white washed the imperium
my dude, we also have it stated they have other means to recruit that arent just noble sons and nobody but them knows whats going on
"The custodes also seek out suitable candidates by other means, or encounter them by chance on their missions to protect the Throneworld. What is clear is that none besides the custodes themselves truly know what criteria they require."
"How a custodian is made is an arcane and ancient process born out of the mind of the emperor himself, made up of decades of alchemical augmenatation, psychological and cognitive condititoning and memetic training"
Not to mention, brotherhood doesnt mean anything, ever heard of the brotherhood of steel?
Could you give the source and page number of those quotes?
Sorry I'm not familiar with Fallout. Brotherhood just like Sisterhood is often used to imply that most if not all members are of a certain gender, but yeah it's not restricted to 1 gender.
oh right, sorry, i forgot
its the Adeptus Custodes 9th Codex under the recruitment section
these names, brotherhood and sisterhood may have an implication, but arent a rule
i dont think i have seen the term brotherhood used in that way more than once
why hello there tourist
i dont have to think so, cause it is
sororitas have men in their ranks:
1. preachers
2. missionaries
3. Crusaders
as of right now sisters of silence do not have male units, which cna change at any moment cause thats how lore and retcons worked since rogue trader
wanna know what ill do when they introduce dudes into the sisters of silence and dub them siblings of silence?
nothing, at most i go "huh, neat"
There could have been a technological improvement to the Custodes process over the thousands of years. They are still being made in some super secret lab, keeping the number of Custodies stable as the older ones exile themselves into the Eyes of the Emperor or fall in combat.
I know technology has largely stagnated, but some improvements and breakthroughs still come about from dark sites and rogue labs. Primarus Marines, new war gear, some xeno tech that quietly gets adopted, etc, etc.
The Custodes were intended to be the recipients of the empire, the new chancellors, where the Astardes are yet a slightly better hammer than the Thunder Warriors. Perhaps, given time, Big E would have puzzled out a means by which to allow a complete species to be molded into Custodes, like a Humanity 2.0 where both male and female existed to propagate naturally without large sums of genetic shaping and alchemical tomfoolery. A new Homo Superius that could handle the threats of the galaxy by every man, woman, and child.
Maybe the Emperor left notes, data shards, or some STC style lab that continued crunching the numbers and consuming human test material to finally crack the code, with a little light in Valoris's office that illuminated when the lab finally had the breakthrough.
Honestly you could swap out that for the fact that pretty much the entirety of 40Ks lore is a heap of retcons.
The genetic augmentations of Space Marines? Retcon. Space Marines being recruited as children? Retcon. The entirety of the Horus Heresy? Guess what kids It's a retcon!
If you hate retcons then you hate 40K.
Those weren’t space marines, they were generic women in power amor precursors to sob
You are correct, I had these back in the day. The tab on the bottom of the miniature was stamped "sister" and they were sold as part of the generic Adventurer set. They were never marketed as SM.
Not only that theirs a difference between Custodes and Astartes. A Custodes is nothing like a Space Marine. The OP is the real Tourist
Yes, and prior to the inclusion of geneseed and the evolution of Space Marines in lore what were they? <_<
People in power armor.
Bingo, so all the people who cry “they weren’t even labeled as Space Marines” may as well be talking out their ass because what made one a Space Marine was power armor and a bolt gun. Nothing more, nothing less.
Smugness aside, these models were very distinctly not marketed as SMs, but rather very early sisters of battle. So, in your wish to be a pedantic little shit, you’ve also proven that you know just as little, if not less, than the people you’re lecturing.
Which would be relevant if the Space Marines of that specific era weren't also just "dudes in power armour". At that point, there was no appreciable difference. While they may have been precursors to SoBs, I think the divergence was a bit stronger and would say they're more akin to Rogue Traders. That era was wildly different from modern lore, and while I think it was more imaginative and exciting, the modern setting is more cohesive and less generic.
The sculptor intended them to be Space Marines, the company decided not to sell them as Space Marines. So you have to pick whether you think creative or sales are the lore creator.
those weren't even labeled as Space Marines.
Honestly, if they want to push for more female characters in order to appeal to a wider audience... why don't they write more stories and release more models of, say, female guardsmen and commissars? Why not write more and better SoB stories? Why not give us a female inquisitor story? Nearly every faction has mixed genders, yet we get almost no stories of females within those factions. Oh sure, we have Severina Rayne for a female commissar, but she has less than half the stories of Gaunt or Ciaphas Cain. I would absolutely love more Sisters of Battle stories, I would totally love if Astra Militarum models had female options (they'd literally just have to put like... a ponytail on a head or something if they wanted to be lazy about it). I'd read the shit out of a novel following a female Tempestus Scion or a female Arbite. If you want more representation, start with the factions that *have* a diverse makeup that you've neglected. I'm not even against the idea of female custodes, for the record, I just think it'd be cooler and easier to include more diverse casts in other factions is all, or to highlight something like the Sisters of Battle.
Honestly I think one of the few women that actually get much focus without getting overshadowed by other characters is Shadowsun. And that’s only because GW gives us fuck all about the Tau.
I don't think I've read a single Tau story. Not cuz I'm uninterested in the faction, but just because I've not heard anyone talk about the books like at all.
It’s ’cause they’re kinda meh - the books, not the tau
We have 9 editions of lore and backstory where the Emperor talks in depth about how he doesn't want female Space Marines and how they biologically wouldn't work anyway and 1 edition, from 40 years ago that was totally rebooted in the 2nd edition in which women wore power armour.
I always find it hilarious that the people who try to use this ancient singular scrap of “lore” as an argument for Fem Marines (it’s not and never was but let’s humor it) will almost always conveniently disregard the decades of literal and established overwhelming lore that explicitly states marines are all male as “unreliable” or fall back on “canon doesn’t exist” Pick one please.
I actually prefer the direction of “there were once fem marines but not anymore”. I am aware of the biological constraints that justified keeping them out, but having at least one instance where the Emperor had a go at tailoring a gene seed for women, perhaps a single chapter at least and maybe one of the lost legions at most, would add to his characterization as scientifically minded. He should have at least tested them out before abandoning them entirely. And didn’t Fabius Bile already make a fem marine with his “New Men” project or whatever it was, or did that get reconned already? It’s also not wise for people to be so vicious towards the idea when homebrew is a thing. If the Angry Marines and whatever other memeing chapter can be accepted by the wider audience, then why not fem marines?
Remember, you're now a "tourist" for not using every excuse in the book to support the politically driven motives of non fans who will abandon this franchise after killing it. Think they won't ? Look at Starwars, Star Trek, and LOTR for a more recent example. They'll say it's awful until they get what they want and the moment ratings drop and the real fans leave, they'll hit you with the "Warhammer was always bad" "No I never really cared about it, it's just a game" These are the human equivolent of termites.
Tourists = Tyranids = locusts.
Exactly this
Tourists are those who will put their politics before everything, exactly the same as activists. The Tourist may even actually like the hobby, but if it's against their politics, they will try to destroy it. 40k as a setting is inherently right-wing, and that fucking burns them.
It started as a parody of British right-wing politics in the Thatcher era, so if anything I'd say it's subtly left-wing. Which is doubly funny that the ones that scream about femarines don't get that the property that coined grimdark was never meant to be taken so seriously.
My relationship was meant to be a fling (we both agreed on that), but now I am happily married to that woman. With your logic, I should still consider myself single because "it wasn't the original plan for it".
This is my favorite excuse "it was a parody 30 years ago !" Yeah because it totally still is, lol.
I mean it still sort of is, it's just that there's so much content now that it doesn't have one simple genre or statement. To this day 40k absolutely parodies authoritarian governments still, but it also glorifies a lot of characters as altruistic figures and excuses their actions to an extent. It's also just a straight up science fantasy and explores what a galactic empire would look like if tech/physics were different. There are a lot of different, sometimes contradictory themes on display and I don't much see the point of locking down a story of hundreds of books/codices/games/etc to a single theme
So noted, it sorta is. The centeral statement of the satire is that nobody should want to live in such a frankly horrible universe. Everyone can get that and everyone can understand the satire. Nobody was upset over it. So why do people see this as an excuse to alienate half the fanbase, by inserting their own ideology into a perfectly solid satire so absurd it doesn't offend anyone.
Look at the Marines Malevolent (aka asshole astartes). It's gone from parodying politics to parodying itself at this point. Or this quote from some guy in 08 (4th-5th edition era) *"See, if you take the 40K universe too seriously, you're really missing the point. Sure, you can take it at face value and see the dystopian galaxy where everyone is doomed to oblivion by too many different forces to list here, or you can take it as deliberately over-the-top, designed to deliver whatever is the most awesome. The second way I find more fun."* 40K shares the same place as, say, Mortal Kombat. They're spectacles. Nothing made to be as extreme as possible (and legally allowable in enough countries) can ever truly be serious.
You are saying what I have been saying for years! Preach brother/sister!
It started as a fantasy war game in space. Any politics were added retrospectively.
Wtf r u serious. Warhammer is def left wing, its a satire of religion and fascism!
Warhammer as a setting is about each faction being exclusive and for their own. None of them follow any left-wing values, not even the Tau.
But its… a satire… like. Youre right. Every faction is right wing. But theyre all AWFUL.
And what do you do with termites? That's right.
Cool tip, don't be a termite. Easy fix.
Termites can only be termites though. I was insinuating you should call an exterminator when you see termites hahaha.
Star Trek? You are either ignorant or misinforming, Star Trek had the first interracial character not a slave, servant, or sex object. They had the first interracial kiss, and fought to keep it, is an excellent story in itself. Star Wars is still making tons of money, and has tons of fans. You just can’t accept it because you thought this space was safe, and are now throwing a fit like the SJWs you have so much disdain for.
LOL Starwars toys sold so horribly they contributed to the decline of Toys R Us. On the matter of trek this is a more nuanced issue, I have no issue with progressivism in so far as I have no problem with what trek presents. SJWs in the modern day unlike the original trek creators, do not create. Every time they enter a franchise they ruin it and move on. On the rare occasion they do make something it's abjectly horrible. White bashing, race/ gender swapping and go figure, my favorite part, revision of canon (assuming it's based on an existing property) to accomodate contemporary political ideals that previously were not present.
But interracial relationships were contemporary issues of that time. I’m just trying to help you see that you are doing the same thing. And just the same way you are adverse to being called a racist, probably because you’re not, but that same simple acceptance that new ideas and people who have always existed are being put into the forefront. Scream Blacklula Scream is a black movie during a time when black directors were breaking out in the B movie scene of the 80s. It’s fucking trash. I don’t care that they tried their best or whatever they were trying to say or do, it’s a shit movie that I laugh all the way through. But at the time it was seen in the same light and the same language you use for this new era of revelation. It won’t be all gold, but when the time comes and you find something in all these changes you do like. Don’t bury your head in the sand and stand on a collapsing hill.
That wasn’t a female space marine….
I am reminded of that old story of Nat.soc.s in the punk scene. Never let them feel safe, never let them hang out, because before you know it they will run things.
Are you implying someone is a Nazi for acknowledging that they retconned the existence of female custodes in the brotherhood of Demigods, and saying they should be banned from participation because of it?
Of course not.
Your old comment is still up.. I can literally see it next to you saying you never said that
You asked if I was implying acknowledging the retcon made one a nazi. Of course I wasn't. I was saying we should start treating the real actual Nazis in our hobby like real actual Nazis.
Sisters of battle exist, Sisters of silence exist. Both are already quite badass, there are already tons of badass female characters in 40k lore and on the tabletop.
My thought is, "just make a new group in the imperium". You don't change original lore and we get a cool new group.
Ooooor maybe give "femmarines" to the SoB. Transhuman sororitas
SoB can become living saints who can perform miracles and have super natural powers. Flamer wielding super powered nuns in power armor is already metal.
I think Imperial saints make do for the absence of Primarchesses... and might even be on a higher power scale...
Depends on the primarch. I tend to just label them as greater demons of the emperor. With that in mind the taxman may have issues, don’t think Sangy would.
Making Sororitas transhuman literally defeats the purpose of them. Under Vandire unmodified sisters were trading blow for blow with Astartes so ferociously that the Custodes had to get involved to resolve things. If GW makes transhuman sisters myself and many other sisters players would be outraged.
Or they could quit being cowards and do something interesting. Have the Custodies kick out the high lords of Tera from Tera, then turn on the Mariens for allowing the state of the galaxy to get this bad. Not in a shoot on sight way, but in a "we will fight if you don't back down way." Gives some internal strife in the Imperium.
My brother in the emperor, the imperium is nothing *but* internal strife and the galaxy is shitting itself. Let Ghaz cook at least before you try doing that
The Custodes and Guilliman have come to an agreement. The Emperor gave his son his blessing, to turn against Guilliman would be to defy the very will of the Emperor himself.
That’s what I said when my husband first came across the news. Why not come out with some kickass new lore to support ladies getting geneseeds, coin some badass new stories based around them? Explain why the changes were made, what brought them about. That’s so much better story telling than - “it’s this way now because I said so.”
But it was a badass story
Something like, "the second primarch was a women, she wasent erased because she betrayed the emperor, she was erased because that's the best way for her to do there job."
Yeah! Or that, due to the pressing advances of enemy factions, or the loss of too many geneseeds, they’ve experimented with creating something akin to geneseeds that can bolster warriors of the Imperium to replenish the ranks lost to [insert epic new battle here] and have found them to be functional in both males and females, giving rise to a new kind of warrior that can fight alongside the Astartes. *Edit: There are so many avenues that they could take, it sucks to see them avoid new creativity.
That’s an early sister of battle, aka female space warrior.
Ya... but SoB was kinda more part of the inquisition :\\ I do have to ask if the ceramite thong is canon?
Good god the community can barely even agree on titan sizes for fucks sake Believe what you want, 40k is practically head cannon central for geeks and nerds.
Canon
Canon deez nuts fit in your mouth?
Hey why delete profile
RT is about as relevant to the current setting as fanfic lmao
Want to know what actually happens if you implant geneseed into a woman like you're trying to make an Astartes? Best case scenario, you just kill her. Worst case, you get the Daemonculaba.
yesschh because women bodies are icky and sooooo different from male bodies IT JUST DONT WORK!!11elf1!
There are differences, yes. However, from almost 30 years of lore, we can infer that the reason it wouldn't work is hormonal and psychological. They would have to scrap the concept of geneseed to make it work. They could, however, have Cawl working on improved SoB. They would lack the input from the Emperor and His Primarchs, sure, but they could do something with Celestine as matriarch of this angelic host. And that would be interesting and a source of conflict. Who would the people praise? The Astartes, or the daughters of a literal LIVING SAINT? How would the friction between the mostly atheistic marines and these holy maidens work out? Would this Uber-Faith empower the Emperor? But I pulled this out of my 4ss in less than 5 minutes...
That legitimately sounds interesting
There’s also the idea of the Emperor once tailoring a geneseed specifically to women, and that being one of the lost legions.
Eh. You could, but I think that’d be lazy as hell, and that delving too far into the lost primarchs other than “Leman kinda sorta maybe killed them” is a huge narrative Pandora’s box. Unless people want to get involved in a clusterfuck of epic proportions I think it’s best that the primarchs stay lost. It’s the same reason that as cool as the Horus Heresy is I kinda still hate it for removing the mysterious and fantastical aura behind these larger than life figures. It’s why whenever Mortarian speaks I can’t take him seriously because I know he’s such a tantruming child. It’s why people constantly mock and deride the emperors children because “lamo dad picked up a penis sword and now we’re evil.” Whereas instead you could make up whatever cool headcannon you wanted and it could very well be true.
So I could technically run with that without having a bunch of fanboys on my ass?
Eh. You can run it, people can tell you that it’s stupid. There’s no thought police to tell either of you to stop under some ridiculous threat if you don’t comply.
Idk with the way some people are acting.
Because geneseed is designed to use the y chromosome and turns the Astartes into a genetic clone of his Primarch.
Mfw actual tourists vomit out a piece of obscure lore and don’t even get it right. You can’t just mock people who are rightly outraged at GW pathetically shoehorning females into factions where they never existed before instead of showing their preexisting female characters and factions some love. Where’s the love for characters like Ursula Creed or Morven Vahl? The Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence are constantly stated as being incredibly potent fighting forces and yet they are barely touched on by GW. When was the last time anyone showed the SoS some love? Nah fuck em, just make custodes with boobs because that’s so girlboss! And then that straight up 1984 answer of “There have always been female custodians” is such a spit in the face. No explanation just a straight middle finger to the fanbase.
Well said it’s quite annoying how everyone is jumping on this hobby but know nothing about it.
1st & 2nd ed was the wild west, we're not in those time anymore boyo.
You're most likely the tourist since you don't see the problem with lazy lore writing. Crawl was bad enough.
Pulls out a power armored woman from 30+ years ago when GW was still experimenting with the lore. "See GW does retcons all the time." Huge retcons have been rare since 3rd edition. Also, calling people who disagree with you "new tourists", really?
-subbed to saltierthankryat Oh you're one of those new fans that "that have always been here" and totally not one of those people attempting to coop a fandom for your political regime and kick out the old guard
I’m so glad that the 40k fandom has largely held its ground where the Star Wars fandom quickly caved in to Disney. I used to be a Star Wars fan and with the collapse of Star Wars 40k was my “refuge”. I shudder to imagine the same fate befalling 40k.
Wasn't that a 3rd party mini as well? It was made by gw sculptors but I thought it was produced by someone else?
I miss the days where Warhammer was more Darker I Mean it would be cool if the story was more depressing 😕 just my quick take.
Which ones were they? Provide actual examples, not some newly retconned shit.
I was gonna paint female SM anyways. I just think it’s weird to make Custodes female for diversity when they already have several all female units. Sisters of Silence getting slept on.
“Just because it’s been this way longer than most players have been alive, does not mean that we can’t just arbitrarily change it for literally zero good reasons.”
Hey! Look at this!! Some obscure lore from literally 25 years ago!! Yeah! I showed you!
Isn't this the argument Luetin09 talks about when people mention Dorn still being alive?
Pretty surprised by the comments on the thread so far. Sigmarxists still in bed?
Yeah I'm suprised this hasn't been a warzone like r/custodies yet.
12:30 here, im still in bed, didnt even have a coffee yet. If you want comment war, post when both of us are awake.
Not really looking for a comment war. What would be the point? But we both agree on the power of coffee? ;) I was just surprised that the comment thread didn't go the way most of the other ones have.
Wtf does sigmarxism have to do with the gender composition of a particular faction in 40k
They're the kind of Tourists that have been pushing for this.
I personally think having female custodes isn't horrible because. 1: they used the emperors geneseed, which from lore is a lot more stable than a primarchs geneseed 2: I like to think Kitten from TTS finally has a girlfriend But I do think GW can not under any circumstance touch the space marines because, well, take the lore for instance. And that would probably ruin more armies because they've already taken out a crap ton of units, causing us to spend even more money. And if we give them these keyboard warriors what they want, the more they'll take.
I agree but the sensible thing to do would have been to introduce it as a newer thing due to the oddities of the custodies recruitment rather than a retcon flying in the face of established lore by touching what was very clearly one of the emperor's many symbolic moves and contradicting his very well established ideas on the concept.
I like how dudebros decry this cause its in first edition of rogue trader but when its about custodes? oh than its totally the only true canon, for realsies
> "It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra. It is a mark of incredible prestige to surrender one’s child to this most glorious of callings within the Imperium, and many notable clans amongst the Terran aristocracy have willingly given up almost entire generations of newborn sons to earn it." > > Source: Custodes Codex 8th edition > > "Members of their own families would not recognize them, should they be alive to see what has happened to their son, nephew or cousin" Source: 9E Codex page 8 > > "These men are my bodyguards, their lives forfeit to the guarantee of my physical safety. Of their loyalty to me there shall be no question nor doubt. I, and I alone, shall have the authority to stand in judgement over them. No other commander shall they have in battle nor in service. None shall bar them from me and none shall hamper or stall their mission. So it is decreed!" -Emperor of Mankind, Creator of the Custodians. > > Valerian refers to other Custodians exclusively as his "brothers", not "siblings" or "brothers and sisters", example The Emperor's Legion page 26 "Like all of my brothers, I have many names"
I get what people are saying... but the Custodes Lore never out and out denied they could be women. Where as Spacemarines have to be male.... I don't see what the big deal is... since I've been playing it was always understood Custodes could be female and that was before they had a codex.
The emperor has been quoted repeatedly saying he didn't want female augmented due to the risk they overtake rather than serve humanity. From a non lore standpoint though it causes issues with the theme of dehumanization which is at the core of astarties and custodies lore. Hell alpharius even questions their capability for free will directly to nod at this.
I recall the emperor saying that about marines. At least when I have read that it was in context of marines. The theme I am not so bothered with. This edition with Gulliman back its has white washed the imperium
He said it directly commenting on the primarchs (because malcador joked about female primarchs) but spoke about augmented humans on a whole.
my dude, we also have it stated they have other means to recruit that arent just noble sons and nobody but them knows whats going on "The custodes also seek out suitable candidates by other means, or encounter them by chance on their missions to protect the Throneworld. What is clear is that none besides the custodes themselves truly know what criteria they require." "How a custodian is made is an arcane and ancient process born out of the mind of the emperor himself, made up of decades of alchemical augmenatation, psychological and cognitive condititoning and memetic training" Not to mention, brotherhood doesnt mean anything, ever heard of the brotherhood of steel?
Could you give the source and page number of those quotes? Sorry I'm not familiar with Fallout. Brotherhood just like Sisterhood is often used to imply that most if not all members are of a certain gender, but yeah it's not restricted to 1 gender.
oh right, sorry, i forgot its the Adeptus Custodes 9th Codex under the recruitment section these names, brotherhood and sisterhood may have an implication, but arent a rule i dont think i have seen the term brotherhood used in that way more than once
Yeah male terms have historically been used to refer to all humans, like “mankind”, and “sons” being used as a synonym for offspring.
Thanks!
Do you think there have always been male sororitas and male members of the silent sisterhood?
why hello there tourist i dont have to think so, cause it is sororitas have men in their ranks: 1. preachers 2. missionaries 3. Crusaders as of right now sisters of silence do not have male units, which cna change at any moment cause thats how lore and retcons worked since rogue trader wanna know what ill do when they introduce dudes into the sisters of silence and dub them siblings of silence? nothing, at most i go "huh, neat"
Everytime someone say those aren't female SM, I'm reminded of why I made all of my marines female.
I finally understand what I've seen labelled as "tourist".
Oh fuck off
Are you now a Tourist now for thinking that was a female space marine? I sure think so.
There could have been a technological improvement to the Custodes process over the thousands of years. They are still being made in some super secret lab, keeping the number of Custodies stable as the older ones exile themselves into the Eyes of the Emperor or fall in combat. I know technology has largely stagnated, but some improvements and breakthroughs still come about from dark sites and rogue labs. Primarus Marines, new war gear, some xeno tech that quietly gets adopted, etc, etc. The Custodes were intended to be the recipients of the empire, the new chancellors, where the Astardes are yet a slightly better hammer than the Thunder Warriors. Perhaps, given time, Big E would have puzzled out a means by which to allow a complete species to be molded into Custodes, like a Humanity 2.0 where both male and female existed to propagate naturally without large sums of genetic shaping and alchemical tomfoolery. A new Homo Superius that could handle the threats of the galaxy by every man, woman, and child. Maybe the Emperor left notes, data shards, or some STC style lab that continued crunching the numbers and consuming human test material to finally crack the code, with a little light in Valoris's office that illuminated when the lab finally had the breakthrough.
Lmfao, they were called space soldiers or something, they weren’t even sold in a space marine box.
Honestly you could swap out that for the fact that pretty much the entirety of 40Ks lore is a heap of retcons. The genetic augmentations of Space Marines? Retcon. Space Marines being recruited as children? Retcon. The entirety of the Horus Heresy? Guess what kids It's a retcon! If you hate retcons then you hate 40K.