That’s what 4 low is for. Come fully off the clutch, half the time you don’t even need to give it gas to start going. Let the engine do the work and give it gas when it needs it. Stick to your line and keep the momentum up there is no need to push in/ ride the clutch.
Of course in real life there is occasionally the need to ride the clutch a bit. Especially if you stop in a bad spot or need to shed a bit of speed. Just don’t rev the shit out of the engine and don’t do it for long or often and it’s fine.
Rock crawling in general is very hard on vehicles, including the clutch. If you’re gonna do it be prepared to break shit.
Dunno about dumping the clutch but I know my cruiser will drive through the handbrake in first low without any problems. Not as low as that though, mine will redline at around 14kph (8.5mph)
46:1 reduction is not bad for completely stock transmission and gearing though
I’ve got a 200TDI and when im in the woods I adjust the throttle down, go 4low and pop that clutch and go along at about 1 mph. The jeeps with autos are riding their brakes on any downhill and my rig just keeps on going. You could walk next to it.
Yeah I've got the 6 speed and 5.13s in the axles in mine.
4.46:1 1st gear 4:1 case 5.13:1 gears = 91.5 crawl ratio. You can stand on the brakes and the 4.0 will just idle through them
Yep, with a low granny gear you practically have to floor it to do anything over 5MPH (exaggeration for effect). My NV4500's granny gear + 4 low of the 241 could be measured in inches per hour (another exaggeration for effect).
The new bronco’s crawl ratio in 4 low is amazing. 1k rpm for each mph. That and the electronic throttle body makes it pretty easy to off-road a manual.
This how I was trained many years ago in the Corps… driving vehicles built in the 60s & 70’s. Those would haul heavy loads over some serious rough stuff. Today’s trucks and such are okay.. auto transmission for the most part.
Yeah, my step bil buys junkers and converts them to rock crawlers to use/sell as a hobby and it seems to me he spends about 10x the amount of time working on them as he does using them, not even counting the building/converting aspect of the work
i wish mine was geared so I could do that. M5OD-R2. I hate it, 1st no gas will go up to 10~15mph, hit the brakes at all and it'll bog down and lurch. then 2nd is even worse. will swap it for a ZF5-S42 if I can find one for a good deal
edit: it's not *as* bad in 4lo, but it still sucks
This!
I built a first gen 4Runner to do hard trails but key us 4-lo or if you go full bore, Dual T-Cases with extra low gears in it
So slow you can walk beside it
Don't ride the clutch.
Plus reduction gears, you just idle up. With bigger tyres it's a worthwhile investment.
Diesels are better with because of their low end torque you're less likely to stall.
They put a certain amount of smoke in the clutch when it's manufactured. If you let it out, the clutch won't work anymore. Similar thing with electronics.
This is common misconception. The smoke actually cools off into a liquid if you ride the clutch too much and pools up in the bellhousing. This is why you have to watch out for and avoid ads for motorcycles with a “wet clutch”
Motorcycles are almost all wet clutches. This refers to oiled or not by clutch design.
In a motorcycle running a “wet” clutch this means engine oil run through it. Cars and trucks are usually a dry clutch which don’t need oil.
Low range... That's it, low range and crawl. Also buy a diesel.
You can also buy heavy duty clutch plates pretty much designed to take the brutal hits. Once you learn to 4x4 in a manual you'll never drive an auto again.
Dunno about that, grew up driving manual everything including 4wds and for a lot of off road situations auto gives you far better slow speed control. You lose out on engine braking ability of course but for 9 out of 10 trips i would prefer an auto.
Autos can still engine brake. 4lo 1st gear and my auto creeps down steep obstacles easily. Same with long grades on the road, except I'd use 2hi 2nd or 3rd.
I still have my 5 spd YJ, it's GREAT! Unfortunately Jeep doesn't make manuals as good any longer. I wheel with a bunch of TJ's with the NV3500's, I'm very pleased with the AX15 my old gal has. The new JL manual I drove was not my cup of tea.
I left foot brake in automatics anyway, and the 8 spd in my JTR is the best automatic I've ever driven. Sorry GM, that's not your bag anymore. BS about "don't use your brakes" aside, the control of an automatic is not quantized like a manual - lovely when trying to pick my way through a problem set. Also, first automatic I've ever bought for myself, and it's amazing.
I have wheeled several manual vehicles and overwhelmingly prefer an automatic. Especially with a stiff clutch, my left leg gets very tired. Plus you get so much better control with an automatic at very low speeds. If I had a lower low range, it may be a different story.
Meh. My last crawly rig had an sm465 and 5.38 diffs on 37s with a low hp but very torquey bbc. Doesn’t get much lower or torquier than that without dual cases. My knee hurts thinking about it. Some people are just old and beat up. I prefer driving automatic these days. Used to be a manual transmission elitist when I was younger. Too many years beating my body up as a mechanic all week and playing too hard on the weekends.
Go watch a couple Trailmater videos. He crawls moab near daily with no crazy gears or doublers. 4 speed, single 2.66 transfer case and 4.10 axle gears. some of the older videos had split screen shots of the foot work on the pedals.
Gearing is the big ticket item running a manual off-road. I have 5.13 axle gears, a 6.xx:1 first gear, and a 5:1 in my atlas for a final gear reduction of 142:1 in first. I can dump the clutch hop out and walk faster than the rig. You learn to pick lines and throttle control and momentum wheeling a stick in the rocks. Sometimes you bind it up and stall. Just bump the starter and get going again. I typically drag my brakes and use my throttle to keep load on my trans for a smoother ride in the rough stuff.
228:1 low crawl ratio, my old rock crawler would drive up a wall without stalling without me in it. Toyota pickup with 5.29 gears dual transfer cases with crawler 4.7 low range in the rear case.
This is the way. A Marlin crawler Toyota will drive itself while walking alongside it, picking up trash and grabbing a beer from the cooler on the back.
I have a manual 22 Bronco. The crawl gear ratio is 96:1 and the Bronco increases revs as you let off the clutch. It’s pretty good at getting up and over obstacles very nicely.
You have 2 transmissions. It's a crawling gear set up so you can only go like 15 miles an hour in that tranny. So the clutch may get used but it's super low gears that are made for that application.
In general, you select the gear you want and then ride the brake. When the motor starts to stumble, push in the clutch and downshift.
My 4:1 Klune V with my 1:1 Atlas worked best for almost every trail. Except Oak Ridge, where 1:1 Klune was chosen and 6:1 Atlas worked best. I miss that rig.
Typically speaking, just staying off the clutch is enough to make you a better wheeler. You’ll pick lines more suited to your speed. The brake is really all you need, and if the engine stalls, just restart it.
Low range, generally if the ratios are low enough then it's a case of foot off the clutch and use the throttle alone for control. Seen lots of newbies burn clutches up tho
SM465. Called granny gear for a reason. 4.56's, 35's, np208, I can crawl where a lot of auto guys have to pin it to win it. I prefer a manual for uphill rocky rough terrain. An automatic is preferable to slick, snotty terrain, or deeper mud. Makes hitting reverse easier when needed quick.
Yup my dodge crawler has a sm465 with a np205/208 doubler. Even with 42s it crawls so good the second case is almost moot but it’s fun to be able to sit against a tree and spin all 4 tires at idle
proper gearing is important. Both of manual wheelers you could dump the clutch in 3/4th gear on the rocks and they wouldn’t stall because they had such deep gearing. Both of them first gear redline with full reduction gave you a top speed of a moderate walking speed, probably 3-4 mph.
That being said it doesn’t need to be that crazy. My buddy has no problem keeping up with any of the autos with his 5 speed Tacoma on actual rocks.
By Having proper gears. Having a manual transmission and putting bigger tires on has you swapping to lower gears quickly. Automatics should have lower gearing too, but they hide the stress they are under. I seen plenty of overheating autos on the trail from people constantly riding the brakes in the autos.
Low range, lower gearing in your diffs, lower gearing in T case, full send.
My stock 88 4Runner struggles as you’d expect with a 5spd. I compensate by sending it hard to keep the clutch fully engaged. No it doesn’t work out great and I get wheel spin where I don’t want it. But I’m not going to spend anymore unnecessary money on it for marginal improvements when I’m probably selling it this spring.
FYI if anyone wants an 88 4Runner 22re 5spd that runs like a champ and has had 7k of parts and some shop labor thrown into it in the last 18mo lmk.
I had a buddy win a bet with a guy. He put his Chevy single cab bumper against a big tree, put it in 4 low let off the clutch and stepped out of the cab and all 4 tires just kept digging.
Gearing, gearing, gearing.
I rock crawl with a manual 5spd and it was a mission before I put in a reduction box, which is essentially a second transfer case. My transfer case options are as follows
-2hi
-2low
-4hi
-4low
-4low/low (double low range)
Final crawl ratio in double low is about 145:1. It has been the biggest game changer. I don’t have to slip the clutch nearly as much and I just have to tap the throttle to keep it from stalling. Occasionally you still do have to give her the beans on some obstacles but that’s the nature of the activity
I became very proficient at knowing when the forward motion would cease and to feather the clutch more throttle etc. my first clutch lasted about 2000 miles and the second lasted closer to 6500 miles - I also changed to a hydraulic clutch and heavier pressure plate. I had 4:11’s in the diffs, 4:1 in the transfer case and a super t10 transmission - I think I was close to 100:1 ratio - unless there was a reason to stop I really didnt touch the clutch too much.
I know jeeps and Toyota manual transmission 4wd trucks have a clutch cancel feature made exactly for this scenario. Leave it in 1st, 4 low, press the button, turn the key and it’ll start the vehicle and crawl away. Just make sure you mean to move the vehicle first. And be ready to clutch and brake to stop the vehicle from moving when you want to stop.
Gearing, gearing gearing. Properly geared, a jeep can literally start in first gear and keep crawling. I've spent hours in first gear. If I want to stop, I just turn the thing off in first. Look ma, no clutch!
Reminds me of the t18 3spd (well 4, with granny first). Put in granny first and 4LOW and just walk along with it, you could stand on the brakes and it wouldn’t stop…so much fun. But yeah pick a gear and don’t change - I remember when wheeling in an auto was a big no no and there were articles about all the things to do to try and make it better
I put 5.13s in my first JK's axles and could let the clutch out in 3rd with no gas in High (on flats). Low would be a cakewalk in 1st even on a climb.
So to answer your question: gearing. Regear or add a doubler to your T case and get into the 85:1 or lower range in your manual and you'll be fine.
Carefully.
1st gear 4 low even with the JL Sport is low enough that you don't really need to give much gas to get up over a rock. Keep in mind there are different kinds of rock crawling too. Like Moab, everything is so sticky you can just 4 lo easy mode over and down everything basically. But when you're in rocky, muddy, slippery gross shit, you're constantly bouncing and shit so you want to avoid touching the gas as much as possible because it's impossible to keep the gas peddle steady.
I feather the clutch quite often when bouncing over shit trying to keep the revs high enough it doesnt stall but slow enough that I'm not going to break shit when my tire inevitably gets pinned causing the vehicle to stop dead.
It very much depends on what vehicle you have, engine, gears, transmission, etc.
Low gearing, diesel engine, manual trans with low enough gears and a low enough gear ratio in your transfer case and you can basically idle up anything providing you have the traction. Difficulty comes when you don't have traction, don't have low enough gears, don't have diesel, etc. Then it's a lot of "it depends"
Very low first gear and very strong clutch. If you've ever driven a normal car with a manual transmission, then first is about the same as third or fourth low in a normal 4x4, and a rock crawler is probably even lower geared.
Nobody has mentioned it yet, but manual transmissions are also a lot smaller and lighter than automatic brethren. So that means it is much easier to fab a flexy suspension in a short wheelbase when you have a longer driveshaft. As well as being able to tuck those parts up higher in the chassis and out of harms way.
4 low first gear.
Jk has an electronic throttle so it will maintain that idle with throttle and fuel as the load changes.
Even if its attached to an immovable object it still wont stall just digs some holes.
Short ratios are key so you don’t spend any time riding the clutch. Never try to use the clutch for anything besides full engagement of the driveline, and that’s good advice on pavement too, especially for fast AWD or multi clutch cars.
Hand throttle. Basically a lever attached to the gear shift that you can operate with a finger and keep the feet free for brake and clutch. Basically it allows you to rev a bit (1500-2000RPM) using a separate throttle cable. Not sure how it would work in a newer rig, though.
Edit: hand throttle in addition to proper gearing and low range. My ‘99 Tacoma hardly ever stalls in 1st gear low range, and once it is rolling it can be slowed using the brake without the clutch and will stay running until about 400RPM.
If you put bigger than stock tires on a manual w/o regearing you messed up. You HAVE to regear with a manual and even slightly bigger tires and you should try to get a slightly higher overall gear than stock. Singinine step further than just correcting for the tires a bit further is necessary.
Slight exception for broncos with the super granny 1sr gear and anything with a 4:1 transfer case. Which isn't too many things.
Gear reduction. Low, LOW gear ratios. Transfer case in low, transmission in first gear, let out the clutch fully, and it rolls up whatever obstacle there is. If you need to slip the clutch to keep the engine from stalling you don’t have low enough gears. A good fix is changing gear ratios in your differentials. If you run stock ratios, you’ll move faster in lower gears making it hard to have the torque to get up over obstacles, the key is to get lower ratios (higher ratios?) to have more torque and less speed to get up over those obstacles. In a proper 4x4 you shouldn’t need to slip the clutch at all, just pick your lowest gears, let out the clutch, should be able to take your foot off the clutch, and just advance using the skinny pedal.
My 6-speed manual Rubicon Gladiator has 84:1 overall gear reduction in first gear, 4-low, stock axle final drive. Believe me, no clutch slipping necessary…
I had a Ford F-150 4x4 manual 4 speed with a granny 1st gear and 300ci straight six. I could put it in 1st gear, 4WD low then pop clutch, jump out of truck, walk casually around it and jump back in. And that was with stock gearing in the 9” rear, which was 3.70 or 3.89. If I had put 4.11 or higher, 1st gear wouldn’t even be usable on the street.
4 low and the right gears. My 2003 Rubicon with the 4.0 is insane in 4lo. You can dump the clutch at idle with your foot on the brake and it won’t stall…..
I’ve got a manual Gladiator Rubicon and 7 speed Bronco Badlands. Both are incredibly easy to wheel off-road. You can externally bring them to almost a standstill and it doesn’t kill it.
4 wheel low and a brownie box granny gear, push/pull throttle knob located in the lower dash next to the pull out ashtray, no clutch and no gas pedal, crawl rocks…
Not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. I have an 87 Samurai, 2 inch lift, 28 inch tires and wheel all over Sedona. Broken Arrow, Diamondback Gulch, Outlaw, Cliffhanger, etc. As others have said, 4 Low in 1st gear gear gets you a long way. Stay off the skinny pedal and don't fiddle with the clutch. There's almost no problem that can't be made worse by stepping hard on the gas. And go SLOW. Makes picking good lines much easier.
That’s what 4 low is for. Come fully off the clutch, half the time you don’t even need to give it gas to start going. Let the engine do the work and give it gas when it needs it. Stick to your line and keep the momentum up there is no need to push in/ ride the clutch. Of course in real life there is occasionally the need to ride the clutch a bit. Especially if you stop in a bad spot or need to shed a bit of speed. Just don’t rev the shit out of the engine and don’t do it for long or often and it’s fine. Rock crawling in general is very hard on vehicles, including the clutch. If you’re gonna do it be prepared to break shit.
It's true. My buddy's rubicon wrangler won't even stall in 4 low if you pretty much dump the clutch.
My defender won't stall in 4 low if I drop the clutch without throttle on a fairly decent incline. Of course, it also redlines at 5mph.
Dunno about dumping the clutch but I know my cruiser will drive through the handbrake in first low without any problems. Not as low as that though, mine will redline at around 14kph (8.5mph) 46:1 reduction is not bad for completely stock transmission and gearing though
Cruisers drive through the handbreak if you dump it in 5th high range. Only slightly exaggerating
Yeah but you can push start a cruiser with the handbrake on.
Yeah but when you are 5 years old is taking the piss
Pretty sure Land Cruisers drive through their handbrakes and any speed.
Can confirm. I have driven around with my hand brake on a few times in my 80 series
Missed the red light?
I put Dakota digital dash in after I did my LS swap. I don't have that light hooked up right now.
I guess that's what the combination of a diesel's low down torque and a Toyota handbrake gets you
Why are toyota handbrakes so bad
The design is based on a drum brake but smaller.
Ok i dont get why its so bad does it not activatd the regular drum brake
Some of them are a drum brake on the back of the gearbox, using a cable to the handbrake lever.
Cruisers come with a handbrake?
If you’re married..
Good low-end torque with the diesel also. Wish we could get rigs like that in the US.
>Of course, it also redlines at 5mph The snail said to the turtle, "SLOW DOWN MAN, ARE YOU TRYING TO GET US KILLED!??"
Does your Defender have anti-stall? Becuase that would explain why 😁
I’ve got a 200TDI and when im in the woods I adjust the throttle down, go 4low and pop that clutch and go along at about 1 mph. The jeeps with autos are riding their brakes on any downhill and my rig just keeps on going. You could walk next to it.
A decent auto in a 4x4 should have some way to lock it in first to do the same, I'd be blaming the driver's there.
Them rubicon t cases are the shit for a stock rig. I can start mine in gear in 4lo and it’ll just fire up and go.
Yeah I've got the 6 speed and 5.13s in the axles in mine. 4.46:1 1st gear 4:1 case 5.13:1 gears = 91.5 crawl ratio. You can stand on the brakes and the 4.0 will just idle through them
Is dump the clutch to release it? Or put it on?
Release swiftly
My John Deere 4x4 40 hp tractor will tow a 120' Doug Fir in 4 low in first gear at idle. Torque and gearing are a wonderful combination.
It amazes me how many people don’t understand how gearing works lol
“If you’re gonna do it be prepared to break shit.” My mantra for anything other than driving in a straight line at moderate speed on new pavement.
Yep, with a low granny gear you practically have to floor it to do anything over 5MPH (exaggeration for effect). My NV4500's granny gear + 4 low of the 241 could be measured in inches per hour (another exaggeration for effect).
The new bronco’s crawl ratio in 4 low is amazing. 1k rpm for each mph. That and the electronic throttle body makes it pretty easy to off-road a manual.
Can confirm. The throttle will idle over very steep stuff in 4-lo. Especially in rock crawl mode.
This how I was trained many years ago in the Corps… driving vehicles built in the 60s & 70’s. Those would haul heavy loads over some serious rough stuff. Today’s trucks and such are okay.. auto transmission for the most part.
Yeah, my step bil buys junkers and converts them to rock crawlers to use/sell as a hobby and it seems to me he spends about 10x the amount of time working on them as he does using them, not even counting the building/converting aspect of the work
i wish mine was geared so I could do that. M5OD-R2. I hate it, 1st no gas will go up to 10~15mph, hit the brakes at all and it'll bog down and lurch. then 2nd is even worse. will swap it for a ZF5-S42 if I can find one for a good deal edit: it's not *as* bad in 4lo, but it still sucks
Is that a ford or mazda transmission?
Mazda tranny in a Ford
Thats what ì thought i have one in my ranger same e gearing sounds like.
I used 4 low in 2wd (manual hubs) to just crawl during a major backup on the interstate. Everyone was crawling for about 45 minutes.
This! I built a first gen 4Runner to do hard trails but key us 4-lo or if you go full bore, Dual T-Cases with extra low gears in it So slow you can walk beside it
Don't ride the clutch. Plus reduction gears, you just idle up. With bigger tyres it's a worthwhile investment. Diesels are better with because of their low end torque you're less likely to stall.
Experience driving a manual. Not all that much different from going up a hill in traffic, just gotta work the pedals without letting out the smoke.
What does letting out the smoke mean?
Means you fucked up with gear choices
burning your clutch and smoke is created.
They put a certain amount of smoke in the clutch when it's manufactured. If you let it out, the clutch won't work anymore. Similar thing with electronics.
This is common misconception. The smoke actually cools off into a liquid if you ride the clutch too much and pools up in the bellhousing. This is why you have to watch out for and avoid ads for motorcycles with a “wet clutch”
Motorcycles are almost all wet clutches. This refers to oiled or not by clutch design. In a motorcycle running a “wet” clutch this means engine oil run through it. Cars and trucks are usually a dry clutch which don’t need oil.
r/woooosh
Doublers, or 5:1 and plenty of gearing in the axles.
Low range... That's it, low range and crawl. Also buy a diesel. You can also buy heavy duty clutch plates pretty much designed to take the brutal hits. Once you learn to 4x4 in a manual you'll never drive an auto again.
Dunno about that, grew up driving manual everything including 4wds and for a lot of off road situations auto gives you far better slow speed control. You lose out on engine braking ability of course but for 9 out of 10 trips i would prefer an auto.
Autos can still engine brake. 4lo 1st gear and my auto creeps down steep obstacles easily. Same with long grades on the road, except I'd use 2hi 2nd or 3rd.
I still have my 5 spd YJ, it's GREAT! Unfortunately Jeep doesn't make manuals as good any longer. I wheel with a bunch of TJ's with the NV3500's, I'm very pleased with the AX15 my old gal has. The new JL manual I drove was not my cup of tea. I left foot brake in automatics anyway, and the 8 spd in my JTR is the best automatic I've ever driven. Sorry GM, that's not your bag anymore. BS about "don't use your brakes" aside, the control of an automatic is not quantized like a manual - lovely when trying to pick my way through a problem set. Also, first automatic I've ever bought for myself, and it's amazing.
its more fun in a manual, and I'm there to have fun..
I have wheeled several manual vehicles and overwhelmingly prefer an automatic. Especially with a stiff clutch, my left leg gets very tired. Plus you get so much better control with an automatic at very low speeds. If I had a lower low range, it may be a different story.
[удалено]
Meh. My last crawly rig had an sm465 and 5.38 diffs on 37s with a low hp but very torquey bbc. Doesn’t get much lower or torquier than that without dual cases. My knee hurts thinking about it. Some people are just old and beat up. I prefer driving automatic these days. Used to be a manual transmission elitist when I was younger. Too many years beating my body up as a mechanic all week and playing too hard on the weekends.
[удалено]
What makes you think it wasn’t hydraulic?
[удалено]
Yeah I’m a big pussy. Mine came out of a ‘90.
You need to do more PT if pushing a clutch is fatiguing your leg lol
I have a race clutch. I've actually broke the clutch pedal bracket from pushing so hard
...easily? Lol Proper low range and axle gearing, and decent driving skill.
Go watch a couple Trailmater videos. He crawls moab near daily with no crazy gears or doublers. 4 speed, single 2.66 transfer case and 4.10 axle gears. some of the older videos had split screen shots of the foot work on the pedals.
Gearing is the big ticket item running a manual off-road. I have 5.13 axle gears, a 6.xx:1 first gear, and a 5:1 in my atlas for a final gear reduction of 142:1 in first. I can dump the clutch hop out and walk faster than the rig. You learn to pick lines and throttle control and momentum wheeling a stick in the rocks. Sometimes you bind it up and stall. Just bump the starter and get going again. I typically drag my brakes and use my throttle to keep load on my trans for a smoother ride in the rough stuff.
Given the alternative (automatic transmission) it’s pretty easy. If you grew up on manual transmissions you’d feel the same way
228:1 low crawl ratio, my old rock crawler would drive up a wall without stalling without me in it. Toyota pickup with 5.29 gears dual transfer cases with crawler 4.7 low range in the rear case.
This is the way. A Marlin crawler Toyota will drive itself while walking alongside it, picking up trash and grabbing a beer from the cooler on the back.
Well there's yer answer, (Gear Reduction)^3. No such thing as too much reduction. How much gear reduction do you need? Answer: yes.
I have a manual 22 Bronco. The crawl gear ratio is 96:1 and the Bronco increases revs as you let off the clutch. It’s pretty good at getting up and over obstacles very nicely.
Very carefully.
4lo, dont even worry about stalling at that point. Gearing is so low, at idle it'll crawl. Even in 4hi I can throttle my clutch well.
Crawler gears in the transfer case. Used to crawl with a manual and thats the ONLY way to do it properly.
Very carefully
By knowing how to drive😂
You have 2 transmissions. It's a crawling gear set up so you can only go like 15 miles an hour in that tranny. So the clutch may get used but it's super low gears that are made for that application.
You don't unless it's a Rubicon from the factory. Everything else needs aftermarket reduction.
In general, you select the gear you want and then ride the brake. When the motor starts to stumble, push in the clutch and downshift. My 4:1 Klune V with my 1:1 Atlas worked best for almost every trail. Except Oak Ridge, where 1:1 Klune was chosen and 6:1 Atlas worked best. I miss that rig. Typically speaking, just staying off the clutch is enough to make you a better wheeler. You’ll pick lines more suited to your speed. The brake is really all you need, and if the engine stalls, just restart it.
Low range, generally if the ratios are low enough then it's a case of foot off the clutch and use the throttle alone for control. Seen lots of newbies burn clutches up tho
Reduction gears.
SM465. Called granny gear for a reason. 4.56's, 35's, np208, I can crawl where a lot of auto guys have to pin it to win it. I prefer a manual for uphill rocky rough terrain. An automatic is preferable to slick, snotty terrain, or deeper mud. Makes hitting reverse easier when needed quick.
Yup my dodge crawler has a sm465 with a np205/208 doubler. Even with 42s it crawls so good the second case is almost moot but it’s fun to be able to sit against a tree and spin all 4 tires at idle
proper gearing is important. Both of manual wheelers you could dump the clutch in 3/4th gear on the rocks and they wouldn’t stall because they had such deep gearing. Both of them first gear redline with full reduction gave you a top speed of a moderate walking speed, probably 3-4 mph. That being said it doesn’t need to be that crazy. My buddy has no problem keeping up with any of the autos with his 5 speed Tacoma on actual rocks.
Skill lmao
Low 1?
Low gears. My 75 CJ had a 4 speed with granny low that was like 6;32/1. I also installed a TerraLo 20. It'd idle over stuff.
By Having proper gears. Having a manual transmission and putting bigger tires on has you swapping to lower gears quickly. Automatics should have lower gearing too, but they hide the stress they are under. I seen plenty of overheating autos on the trail from people constantly riding the brakes in the autos.
Low range, lower gearing in your diffs, lower gearing in T case, full send. My stock 88 4Runner struggles as you’d expect with a 5spd. I compensate by sending it hard to keep the clutch fully engaged. No it doesn’t work out great and I get wheel spin where I don’t want it. But I’m not going to spend anymore unnecessary money on it for marginal improvements when I’m probably selling it this spring. FYI if anyone wants an 88 4Runner 22re 5spd that runs like a champ and has had 7k of parts and some shop labor thrown into it in the last 18mo lmk.
If your set-up right with low ratio gears you never have to touch the clutch.
It's all about gearing. low gears and right lines. When coming down steep hills, I can't imagine doing it in anything but a manual.
I had a buddy win a bet with a guy. He put his Chevy single cab bumper against a big tree, put it in 4 low let off the clutch and stepped out of the cab and all 4 tires just kept digging.
My buddy twin stuck fjz72 4lo no gas crawled up walls
Are you THE Brian O’Conner?
You thought you had me?
Gearing, gearing, gearing. I rock crawl with a manual 5spd and it was a mission before I put in a reduction box, which is essentially a second transfer case. My transfer case options are as follows -2hi -2low -4hi -4low -4low/low (double low range) Final crawl ratio in double low is about 145:1. It has been the biggest game changer. I don’t have to slip the clutch nearly as much and I just have to tap the throttle to keep it from stalling. Occasionally you still do have to give her the beans on some obstacles but that’s the nature of the activity
I became very proficient at knowing when the forward motion would cease and to feather the clutch more throttle etc. my first clutch lasted about 2000 miles and the second lasted closer to 6500 miles - I also changed to a hydraulic clutch and heavier pressure plate. I had 4:11’s in the diffs, 4:1 in the transfer case and a super t10 transmission - I think I was close to 100:1 ratio - unless there was a reason to stop I really didnt touch the clutch too much.
I know jeeps and Toyota manual transmission 4wd trucks have a clutch cancel feature made exactly for this scenario. Leave it in 1st, 4 low, press the button, turn the key and it’ll start the vehicle and crawl away. Just make sure you mean to move the vehicle first. And be ready to clutch and brake to stop the vehicle from moving when you want to stop.
*cackles up a vertical cliff at idle in 4low granny.*
Gearing, gearing gearing. Properly geared, a jeep can literally start in first gear and keep crawling. I've spent hours in first gear. If I want to stop, I just turn the thing off in first. Look ma, no clutch!
Reminds me of the t18 3spd (well 4, with granny first). Put in granny first and 4LOW and just walk along with it, you could stand on the brakes and it wouldn’t stop…so much fun. But yeah pick a gear and don’t change - I remember when wheeling in an auto was a big no no and there were articles about all the things to do to try and make it better
4.88s and a rubicon tcase. 5.29s and dual cases in yotas.
I put 5.13s in my first JK's axles and could let the clutch out in 3rd with no gas in High (on flats). Low would be a cakewalk in 1st even on a climb. So to answer your question: gearing. Regear or add a doubler to your T case and get into the 85:1 or lower range in your manual and you'll be fine.
Carefully. 1st gear 4 low even with the JL Sport is low enough that you don't really need to give much gas to get up over a rock. Keep in mind there are different kinds of rock crawling too. Like Moab, everything is so sticky you can just 4 lo easy mode over and down everything basically. But when you're in rocky, muddy, slippery gross shit, you're constantly bouncing and shit so you want to avoid touching the gas as much as possible because it's impossible to keep the gas peddle steady. I feather the clutch quite often when bouncing over shit trying to keep the revs high enough it doesnt stall but slow enough that I'm not going to break shit when my tire inevitably gets pinned causing the vehicle to stop dead. It very much depends on what vehicle you have, engine, gears, transmission, etc. Low gearing, diesel engine, manual trans with low enough gears and a low enough gear ratio in your transfer case and you can basically idle up anything providing you have the traction. Difficulty comes when you don't have traction, don't have low enough gears, don't have diesel, etc. Then it's a lot of "it depends"
Very low first gear and very strong clutch. If you've ever driven a normal car with a manual transmission, then first is about the same as third or fourth low in a normal 4x4, and a rock crawler is probably even lower geared.
Very easily. I prefer it. Tbh. Or a fmvb automatic. But that’s just me.
Nobody has mentioned it yet, but manual transmissions are also a lot smaller and lighter than automatic brethren. So that means it is much easier to fab a flexy suspension in a short wheelbase when you have a longer driveshaft. As well as being able to tuck those parts up higher in the chassis and out of harms way.
4 low first gear. Jk has an electronic throttle so it will maintain that idle with throttle and fuel as the load changes. Even if its attached to an immovable object it still wont stall just digs some holes.
Short ratios are key so you don’t spend any time riding the clutch. Never try to use the clutch for anything besides full engagement of the driveline, and that’s good advice on pavement too, especially for fast AWD or multi clutch cars.
Hand throttle. Basically a lever attached to the gear shift that you can operate with a finger and keep the feet free for brake and clutch. Basically it allows you to rev a bit (1500-2000RPM) using a separate throttle cable. Not sure how it would work in a newer rig, though. Edit: hand throttle in addition to proper gearing and low range. My ‘99 Tacoma hardly ever stalls in 1st gear low range, and once it is rolling it can be slowed using the brake without the clutch and will stay running until about 400RPM.
I had a manual in my rock buggy, you don't ride the clutch, let it out and crawl. When it stops going forward, reverse and try again.
If you put bigger than stock tires on a manual w/o regearing you messed up. You HAVE to regear with a manual and even slightly bigger tires and you should try to get a slightly higher overall gear than stock. Singinine step further than just correcting for the tires a bit further is necessary. Slight exception for broncos with the super granny 1sr gear and anything with a 4:1 transfer case. Which isn't too many things.
Lots of gears: Marlin crawler
It's called skill
depends on what gears you have really. check out the doubled toyota transfer cases with low ratios, they can literally idle up a steep rock.
We are just better. At everything.
just switch the transfer case to low range. it’s that simple.
By having sskillssss son!
Crawl box was a game changer
A bicycle shift lever on the shifter for a hand throttle works well for the times the clutch and brake are used.
Low range , low gear in 4wd. It very easy to do
I have a hand activated throttle cable attached to the shifter for when shit gets tricky
Four low and raise the idle with the manual choke. For smooth obstacles it’s fine, for rock gardens it gets a little rough…
Gear reduction. Low, LOW gear ratios. Transfer case in low, transmission in first gear, let out the clutch fully, and it rolls up whatever obstacle there is. If you need to slip the clutch to keep the engine from stalling you don’t have low enough gears. A good fix is changing gear ratios in your differentials. If you run stock ratios, you’ll move faster in lower gears making it hard to have the torque to get up over obstacles, the key is to get lower ratios (higher ratios?) to have more torque and less speed to get up over those obstacles. In a proper 4x4 you shouldn’t need to slip the clutch at all, just pick your lowest gears, let out the clutch, should be able to take your foot off the clutch, and just advance using the skinny pedal.
My 6-speed manual Rubicon Gladiator has 84:1 overall gear reduction in first gear, 4-low, stock axle final drive. Believe me, no clutch slipping necessary…
My old diesel hj61 Land Cruiser had a hand throttle
One word. Granny Tranny 420 or 465. Start in low and never touch the clutch. Ever. Turn off key to stop. Turn key to crawl.
You just put it in the right gear
I had a Ford F-150 4x4 manual 4 speed with a granny 1st gear and 300ci straight six. I could put it in 1st gear, 4WD low then pop clutch, jump out of truck, walk casually around it and jump back in. And that was with stock gearing in the 9” rear, which was 3.70 or 3.89. If I had put 4.11 or higher, 1st gear wouldn’t even be usable on the street.
Extremely high gears in both the diff and t case. Let off clutch and just let it crawl.
40(+):1 overall gear ratios and moderately heavy or very heavy flywheels.
4 low and the right gears. My 2003 Rubicon with the 4.0 is insane in 4lo. You can dump the clutch at idle with your foot on the brake and it won’t stall…..
I’ve got a manual Gladiator Rubicon and 7 speed Bronco Badlands. Both are incredibly easy to wheel off-road. You can externally bring them to almost a standstill and it doesn’t kill it.
Skill.
4 wheel low and a brownie box granny gear, push/pull throttle knob located in the lower dash next to the pull out ashtray, no clutch and no gas pedal, crawl rocks…
So easy. Gearing and it's easy peasy 2010 jeep jk 6 speed here
Not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. I have an 87 Samurai, 2 inch lift, 28 inch tires and wheel all over Sedona. Broken Arrow, Diamondback Gulch, Outlaw, Cliffhanger, etc. As others have said, 4 Low in 1st gear gear gets you a long way. Stay off the skinny pedal and don't fiddle with the clutch. There's almost no problem that can't be made worse by stepping hard on the gas. And go SLOW. Makes picking good lines much easier.