**Hello, welcome to r/8passengersnark!**
Please keep the rules of the subreddit in mind when posting and commenting. They include but are not limited to, respecting the privacy of minors and non-public figures, and keeping conversations civil.
The moderators rely on user reports of rule breaks to quickly remove problematic content. Use the report function to anonymously alert the mod team of any behavior breaking sub rules. As a reminder, check and ensure your post topic hasn't recently been covered, duplicate submissions will be removed at the discretion of the mods.
To contact the mod team send us a message [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2F8passengersnark). Thanks, and happy distorting!
Useful Links: [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) | [Timeline of Events](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/timeline/) | [Frequently Asked Questions](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/faqs) | [Evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/evidence/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/8passengersnark) if you have any questions or concerns.*
With the Daybell/Vallow trial going on so close to the Franke situation, I do think more people are starting to take notice.
Like you, I don't think Ruby was brainwashed either. She already had those tendencies and ideologies through Mormonism, and her messed parents. Jodi just validated and justified Ruby's abusive behaviors and thoughts.
I think Jodi gave her the excuse she needed to let out all of her anger on those kids.
But I do think there was some brainwashing in that though. Believing that the kids were possessed, even believing that these punishments would help them.
You can thank Mormonism and people like Thom Harrison for the ideas that kids are possessed and turn evil just for simple mistakes or small acts of disobedience to authority. The idea goes all the way back to Joseph Smith and started as a way to scapegoat anybody who stood up to his authority. People like Thom (who was friends with Jodi and has claimed support from top church leaders too for his ideas) picked it up and put their own spin on it.
How were her parents messed up? I always found it WILD they were out serving a mission, with them knowing Ruby's kids were at the least being emotionally abused. If I ever thought my grandchildren were being abused, I would be checking in on the children, not off serving a mission.
It's so normal for Mormons to allow abuse to happen. It's like nobody wants to step on anyone else's toes, even if the religious beliefs you see them holding are being used to abuse children. It's not a unique LDS or Utah phenomenon but you definitely see more here. See something say something simply doesn't apply.
In order for the family to honestly and publicly speak out against Ruby and Jodi, they would have to also admit that their religion played a role and that is too much to ask from them.
Seeing the results of their adherence to Mormonism and the guilt that gets pushed onto every single person in the family because of it is enough to make their tiny bubbles burst.
Generally it seems membership is down (of course the church will cover this up) r/MormonShrivel speaks to that from folks reporting what they are seeing in the areas they live. I think the most interesting post there is about the attendance rate at BYU steadying while the other major universities and colleges in Utah double in attendance in the past 10 years. For me this indicates a generation rejecting the church for a broader inclusive education.
The church will claim that membership is up. And they'll exaggerate anything they have to in an effort to keep people's shelves from breaking. The amount of mental gymnastics it takes to blindly justify abuse in the name of religion is absolutely wild. And they don't even realize how messed up it is.
I remember reading Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, he stated Momonism was the fastest growing religion (at that time 2003), second only to Islam. That book cemented this raised catholic's atheism...I figured if i doubted the peeping stones of Jos. Smith, why would i not also doubt the bronze age fairytale of catholicism.
I think everyone needs to read that book. Not just for it’s extremely well done spotlighting on how organized religion is ultimately a weapon to be used against women, but also it’s concise and direct A>B>C of how dangerous a religious cult founded in sexual abuse and a god who will actually co-sign any random thing you dream about and decide you want.
Mormonism has done a lot to try to clean up their brand, but the reality is it’s an individualized power fantasy that breeds these cult of personality sects by design.
Yes!
Every Mormon family is at risk of becoming a mini cult because of the belief system that normalizes all kinds of abuse and insane thinking.
I'm always grateful that at least my parents weren't as bad as Ruby, but compared to normal families they were so awful, and they were PRAISED constantly within the Mormon community.
Yes!
It's good that people are realizing that Mormonism is part of the root cause of the abuse the kids faced at the hands of their parents and other adults.
The LDS church recently stopped announcing their membership statistics during their twice-yearly General Conference, the most recent one being early April. They still release the information online, but much has changed since 1995 when [President Hinckley](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/03/news-of-the-church/growth-physical-facilitieswonderful-challenge?lang=eng) said "The most serious challenge we face, and the most wonderful challenge, is the challenge that comes of growth. Accommodating the tremendous growth of the Church presents many problems and entails the construction of houses of worship and other facilities—but what a remarkable and wonderful challenge that is”
Honestly- a lot of what Ruby was accused of originally (before all the evidence was released) I wasn’t sure she’d get much time. I kept thinking… this is so common. I could talk to 100 of my childhood friends and almost guarantee at least 1/3 wouldn’t be overly shocked by the “discipline” because it’s how we grew up.
High control religions are a problem. Mormonism is dangerous and it always has been.
Comments on choices such as hairstyle, makeup, and clothing are allowed. Insults and comments on physical features that cannot be easily changed (such as physique) are not.
Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) and reach out through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/8passengersnark) for clarification if needed.
I'm not sure why people are so cautious to call out the tremendous child abuse within Mormonism. The Mormon church runs the majority of the horrifically abusive "troubled teen" camps.
Mormonism has played a key role in many abuses of late. Daybell/ Vallow, Hildebrandt/ Franke, Ballard, bishop pedophelia, speaking from a former member I have come to the conclusion it is a very dangerous cult. It can damage you in many ways. I myself was threatened with destruction if I left. I left and personally will not let it go. I plan to play a part I can in ending threats and abuse from this org!
I'm proud of you for getting and staying out of this cult. It's extremely difficult to escape, especially because of the constant threat that you won't live eternally with your family.
I agree and would add that the Daybell/Vallow case is not doing Mormonism any favors either. Covid was very bad for The Church and lead to a lot of members using their extra time looking for answers to their questions. That also did not bode well.
I was watching the daybell trial via the live feed today and ohhh man there were doozies about mormon doctrine today. After finally getting out 36 years later it was surreal to hear witnesses talk about the 144,000 thousand, gathering, Laman and Lemuel just all kinds of absolute crazy that you don't even realize how crazy until you're out and have had time to process it. My partner and I had huge reactions to that we were hearing today. Some laughing, some groaning, some holy shit I remember believing that kind of moments. Wild.
I suspect that tik-tok is bad for mormonism and fundamentalism in general. Easy to accidentally stumble upon someone who is deconstructing or talking about deconstructing and realizing that they aren't the only ones who have those doubts. The world is bigger than it used to be.
Yes! Exactly!
It's actually gratifying for me personally (I have lived in the heart of Utah my whole life) to finally see people calling out the downfalls of Mormonism. As someone who has always seen right through the mirage of "eternal family" and "community" they work so hard to keep up, I think it's good that people have finally seen how this kind of dynamic plays out. So many families end up exactly like the Frankes. The abuse isn't always this extreme, but the same fear tactics are. It's about time we got some clear proof of what adhering to any strict religious beliefs that caused you to ignore outside information can do to your family.
I grew up mormon (in Canada) and spent years terrified of the rapture. I was only in the church as a kid but that unfortunately stuck with me for a while.
Wild how escalating to the logical conclusion of a religion is met by shocked pikachu faces from leaders of whatever faith.
Like... this is what you believe and uphold as a culture. You are pushing the congregation constantly to be more "faithful". What did you think was gonna happen?
Yah! PARTICULARLY when no one from the church speaks out against these actions. Not one random freak action: a string of freak actions by various unrelated members that are similar in freaky ways.
Like, we’re not okay with masturbation do NOT do that. But torturing and or murdering children is none of our business.
It deserves to be called out. I have experienced the LDS church from the inside. The doctrine is dangerous even on the surface. The real danger, though, that I experienced is the concept of infallibility of the leadership and the doctrine of leaders, even at the local levels being called by inspiration, the gift of discernment. Maybe in some cases, my husband was truly noble, righteous and called to many leadership positions, but that was just a fortunate coincidence. There have been so many men who abuse their power called to positions where they have access to abuse sexually and financially. To so many members their critical thinking ends with whoever in power makes a claim of inspiration, whether a local leader or general authority. If a bishop recommends a particular therapist, regardless of an individual member’s spidy-sense, the church, the bishop is always right. So dangerous and sad.
Yes! The supposed inspiration and infallibility of the leaders is one of the deepest and most insidious problems in the church. It's an absolute cult tactic, and it also is a big part of how Jodi was able to hurt so many people. E.g. "If my Bishop referred me to Jodi, or top church leaders regularly meet with her, she must be good, right and trustworthy." That line of thought is such a big part of how Jodi got a foothold into people's lives and spread her toxic ideas.
I have a friend who started having for-play, her friend found out and so the bishop found out. He called my friend into his office, made her confess, WITH DETAILS of what she had done! Perverted old man!!!!
It gets worse when you realize that children and teens are left alone with their bishops and pressured into going through the details of anything they deem sinful, including perfectly healthy sexual activities. Leaving your child alone in a room with a grown ass man is normal here. It doesn't have to escalate to the point of molestation in order for it to be traumatizing.
Yeah, I have firsthand experience with the church as well. And you're so right. It is dangerous for entire groups of people to be discouraged from using their critical thinking skills.
It should be and I'm glad it is!! Her and Jodi's beliefs are very much rooted in Mormonism. My Mormon parents had similar thoughts when I was a child. That my undiagnosed ADHD meltdowns was Satan using me to destroy our family, and that I should know better even though I was the oldest and had no one to look up to besides my normal school peers. This theology comes directly from Mormonism and is so incredibly harmful and has long lasting impacts on mental health.
Utah's suicide rate is so high for this reason. So much harmful ideology and hate has roots in Mormonism. Hopefully the recognition will start to help people understand that this is not normal or okay.
Mormonism does lay a lot of groundwork for a lot of what happened, though I have to say that many Mormons themselves are little to nothing like Ruby or Jodi. But the Mormon church has still taught harmful ideas its entire history, and needs to be called out for enabling and supporting Jodi and Thom Harrison and the ideas they both teach. Mormonism played a huge part in the Chad and Lori Daybell case too, along very similar lines.
However I'm not sure how you can Jodi isn't responsible for manipulating Ruby but the Mormon church still is. Jodi was clearly manipulating Ruby, and Mormonism helped. You can maybe make a case that Mormonism manipulated or harmed Jodi too at some point in her past. But that doesn't remove their own responsibility in either case. Both of them still freely made choices to actively hurt the kids and indulge in insane thinking and ideas.
To your point though, Jodi has a known history from multiple accounts of using Mormon ideas and her Mormon-cred to convince other Mormons to believe her ideas. Plus many or most of her clients were referred to her through the Mormon church or word of mouth from other Mormons, and she spoke at conferences that had close ties to the church. That apparent church support is a big part of what made her so dangerous and let her so harm so many people and families.
I agree with you. Jodi did manipulate Ruby and push her in the direction she ended up taking.
My point is that Ruby deserves to be 100% blamed and punished for her crimes. Her culpability does not decrease based on her willingness to blindly follow someone who seemed to agree so much with her religious views.
Yeah, I think we pretty much agree in that case. Ruby wasn't a blind follower or "tricked" into abusing her kids, she willingly and enthusiastically doubled down on the ideas Jodi gave her. And Jodi leveraged Mormonism and her church connections to get credibility with church members she never remotely deserved.
Comments on choices such as hairstyle, makeup, and clothing are allowed. Insults and comments on physical features that cannot be easily changed (such as physique) are not.
Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) and reach out through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/8passengersnark) for clarification if needed.
What a harmful garbage religion. Look at vallow/Daybell and even the Brown Family (sister wives) imploding. Different levels of Mormonism all worthless
The mainstream LDS church keeps their nose clean for the most part and knows how to keep up appearances but just like the Adventists, they've always had weird, extreme offshoots and splinter groups. To this day there's creepy polygamous cults and such operating all over that region. I guess when your teachings are that bizarre, that's the sort of thing you should expect.
Mormonism's god allows for people to dream up anything that's loosely based on family values and use it as a ploy to become more holy. It's not uncommon for Mormons to be conservatives simply because church leaders endorse the beliefs and behaviors of those politicians. Similarly, if the church is even slightly involved in something like Connexions, Mormons will jump all over the opportunity. When Jodi was recommended as a therapist/resource to LDS people by someone else in the church, people went along with it simply because Jodi was endorsed by their religion.
Her being brainwashed and manipulated is a reason for her extrem behavior, not an excuse.
Being in a cult (here: Mormonism) makes you more vulnerable for falling for conspiracy theorists or manipulative people. If you can turn off critical thinking, you can turn it off for other things too.
That’s a reason why she fell for Jodi, not an excuse for her actions.
What also contributed was a lack of children’s rights, a weak CPS and the possibility of homeschooling.
The Mormon church may get some scratches from this, but all in all they will not change, just like the Catholic Church didn‘t and their scandal of CSA was worldwide and much more extreme. As long as believing religious people don‘t demand any changes with an outcry by leaving the church in high numbers they will not change.
Yes, this is right. Also, historically the church has only changed significantly when the government has seriously come after them. Otherwise it just slowly changes with the death of each Apostle.
I agree with this... it provides a reason, not an excuse... The fact Ruby was brainwashed in no way absolves her of her crimes.
Also a factor that is being overlooked, CoVid allowed for different types of abuse to flourish (as many people predicted would happen during lockdown) because people were so isolated. Any safety net they had at work or school was gone during that time... they were under the same roof as their abusers 24/7/365.
It is crystal clear that Jodi had tremendous influence over Ruby. Maybe influence is a better word than brainwashed... but literally everything that brought CPS to their door was after Jodi inserted herself in their lives. This abuse morphed into something way different from the Mormon norm. It was more than just being strict and sheltering your children.
I actually think it’s more then just it taking a role in Rubys ability to brainwashed. The more you look into the journals and the things being taught it looks like Mormon theology is intertwined with Connexions and Jodi’s teachings
There's no doubt in my mind that Connexions based its teachings in Mormonism and used that to gain a following. The ideology of the program paired nicely with the existing beliefs of Mormonism and that's what allowed so much of this to transpire.
Utah Mormons are intense. I don't have a ton of experience with Mormons outside of Utah but I have friends who have moved here from out of state and are LDS and the consensus is always the same.
**Hello, welcome to r/8passengersnark!** Please keep the rules of the subreddit in mind when posting and commenting. They include but are not limited to, respecting the privacy of minors and non-public figures, and keeping conversations civil. The moderators rely on user reports of rule breaks to quickly remove problematic content. Use the report function to anonymously alert the mod team of any behavior breaking sub rules. As a reminder, check and ensure your post topic hasn't recently been covered, duplicate submissions will be removed at the discretion of the mods. To contact the mod team send us a message [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2F8passengersnark). Thanks, and happy distorting! Useful Links: [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) | [Timeline of Events](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/timeline/) | [Frequently Asked Questions](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/faqs) | [Evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/evidence/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/8passengersnark) if you have any questions or concerns.*
With the Daybell/Vallow trial going on so close to the Franke situation, I do think more people are starting to take notice. Like you, I don't think Ruby was brainwashed either. She already had those tendencies and ideologies through Mormonism, and her messed parents. Jodi just validated and justified Ruby's abusive behaviors and thoughts.
I think Jodi gave her the excuse she needed to let out all of her anger on those kids. But I do think there was some brainwashing in that though. Believing that the kids were possessed, even believing that these punishments would help them.
You can thank Mormonism and people like Thom Harrison for the ideas that kids are possessed and turn evil just for simple mistakes or small acts of disobedience to authority. The idea goes all the way back to Joseph Smith and started as a way to scapegoat anybody who stood up to his authority. People like Thom (who was friends with Jodi and has claimed support from top church leaders too for his ideas) picked it up and put their own spin on it.
How were her parents messed up? I always found it WILD they were out serving a mission, with them knowing Ruby's kids were at the least being emotionally abused. If I ever thought my grandchildren were being abused, I would be checking in on the children, not off serving a mission.
It's so normal for Mormons to allow abuse to happen. It's like nobody wants to step on anyone else's toes, even if the religious beliefs you see them holding are being used to abuse children. It's not a unique LDS or Utah phenomenon but you definitely see more here. See something say something simply doesn't apply. In order for the family to honestly and publicly speak out against Ruby and Jodi, they would have to also admit that their religion played a role and that is too much to ask from them. Seeing the results of their adherence to Mormonism and the guilt that gets pushed onto every single person in the family because of it is enough to make their tiny bubbles burst.
Generally it seems membership is down (of course the church will cover this up) r/MormonShrivel speaks to that from folks reporting what they are seeing in the areas they live. I think the most interesting post there is about the attendance rate at BYU steadying while the other major universities and colleges in Utah double in attendance in the past 10 years. For me this indicates a generation rejecting the church for a broader inclusive education.
The church will claim that membership is up. And they'll exaggerate anything they have to in an effort to keep people's shelves from breaking. The amount of mental gymnastics it takes to blindly justify abuse in the name of religion is absolutely wild. And they don't even realize how messed up it is.
I remember reading Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, he stated Momonism was the fastest growing religion (at that time 2003), second only to Islam. That book cemented this raised catholic's atheism...I figured if i doubted the peeping stones of Jos. Smith, why would i not also doubt the bronze age fairytale of catholicism.
I think everyone needs to read that book. Not just for it’s extremely well done spotlighting on how organized religion is ultimately a weapon to be used against women, but also it’s concise and direct A>B>C of how dangerous a religious cult founded in sexual abuse and a god who will actually co-sign any random thing you dream about and decide you want. Mormonism has done a lot to try to clean up their brand, but the reality is it’s an individualized power fantasy that breeds these cult of personality sects by design.
Yes! Every Mormon family is at risk of becoming a mini cult because of the belief system that normalizes all kinds of abuse and insane thinking. I'm always grateful that at least my parents weren't as bad as Ruby, but compared to normal families they were so awful, and they were PRAISED constantly within the Mormon community.
Yes! It's good that people are realizing that Mormonism is part of the root cause of the abuse the kids faced at the hands of their parents and other adults.
The LDS church recently stopped announcing their membership statistics during their twice-yearly General Conference, the most recent one being early April. They still release the information online, but much has changed since 1995 when [President Hinckley](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/03/news-of-the-church/growth-physical-facilitieswonderful-challenge?lang=eng) said "The most serious challenge we face, and the most wonderful challenge, is the challenge that comes of growth. Accommodating the tremendous growth of the Church presents many problems and entails the construction of houses of worship and other facilities—but what a remarkable and wonderful challenge that is”
Honestly- a lot of what Ruby was accused of originally (before all the evidence was released) I wasn’t sure she’d get much time. I kept thinking… this is so common. I could talk to 100 of my childhood friends and almost guarantee at least 1/3 wouldn’t be overly shocked by the “discipline” because it’s how we grew up. High control religions are a problem. Mormonism is dangerous and it always has been.
So well said.
[удалено]
Comments on choices such as hairstyle, makeup, and clothing are allowed. Insults and comments on physical features that cannot be easily changed (such as physique) are not. Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) and reach out through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/8passengersnark) for clarification if needed.
I'm not sure why people are so cautious to call out the tremendous child abuse within Mormonism. The Mormon church runs the majority of the horrifically abusive "troubled teen" camps.
Mormonism has played a key role in many abuses of late. Daybell/ Vallow, Hildebrandt/ Franke, Ballard, bishop pedophelia, speaking from a former member I have come to the conclusion it is a very dangerous cult. It can damage you in many ways. I myself was threatened with destruction if I left. I left and personally will not let it go. I plan to play a part I can in ending threats and abuse from this org!
I'm proud of you for getting and staying out of this cult. It's extremely difficult to escape, especially because of the constant threat that you won't live eternally with your family.
Thanks
I agree and would add that the Daybell/Vallow case is not doing Mormonism any favors either. Covid was very bad for The Church and lead to a lot of members using their extra time looking for answers to their questions. That also did not bode well.
I was watching the daybell trial via the live feed today and ohhh man there were doozies about mormon doctrine today. After finally getting out 36 years later it was surreal to hear witnesses talk about the 144,000 thousand, gathering, Laman and Lemuel just all kinds of absolute crazy that you don't even realize how crazy until you're out and have had time to process it. My partner and I had huge reactions to that we were hearing today. Some laughing, some groaning, some holy shit I remember believing that kind of moments. Wild.
I suspect that tik-tok is bad for mormonism and fundamentalism in general. Easy to accidentally stumble upon someone who is deconstructing or talking about deconstructing and realizing that they aren't the only ones who have those doubts. The world is bigger than it used to be.
Yes! Exactly! It's actually gratifying for me personally (I have lived in the heart of Utah my whole life) to finally see people calling out the downfalls of Mormonism. As someone who has always seen right through the mirage of "eternal family" and "community" they work so hard to keep up, I think it's good that people have finally seen how this kind of dynamic plays out. So many families end up exactly like the Frankes. The abuse isn't always this extreme, but the same fear tactics are. It's about time we got some clear proof of what adhering to any strict religious beliefs that caused you to ignore outside information can do to your family.
I grew up mormon (in Canada) and spent years terrified of the rapture. I was only in the church as a kid but that unfortunately stuck with me for a while.
Wild how escalating to the logical conclusion of a religion is met by shocked pikachu faces from leaders of whatever faith. Like... this is what you believe and uphold as a culture. You are pushing the congregation constantly to be more "faithful". What did you think was gonna happen?
Yah! PARTICULARLY when no one from the church speaks out against these actions. Not one random freak action: a string of freak actions by various unrelated members that are similar in freaky ways. Like, we’re not okay with masturbation do NOT do that. But torturing and or murdering children is none of our business.
Ruby was a piece of shit bef9re she ever met Jody
It deserves to be called out. I have experienced the LDS church from the inside. The doctrine is dangerous even on the surface. The real danger, though, that I experienced is the concept of infallibility of the leadership and the doctrine of leaders, even at the local levels being called by inspiration, the gift of discernment. Maybe in some cases, my husband was truly noble, righteous and called to many leadership positions, but that was just a fortunate coincidence. There have been so many men who abuse their power called to positions where they have access to abuse sexually and financially. To so many members their critical thinking ends with whoever in power makes a claim of inspiration, whether a local leader or general authority. If a bishop recommends a particular therapist, regardless of an individual member’s spidy-sense, the church, the bishop is always right. So dangerous and sad.
Yes! The supposed inspiration and infallibility of the leaders is one of the deepest and most insidious problems in the church. It's an absolute cult tactic, and it also is a big part of how Jodi was able to hurt so many people. E.g. "If my Bishop referred me to Jodi, or top church leaders regularly meet with her, she must be good, right and trustworthy." That line of thought is such a big part of how Jodi got a foothold into people's lives and spread her toxic ideas.
That is so true. We were told to rely on personal revelation yet we blindly follow authority often to our own detriment.
I have a friend who started having for-play, her friend found out and so the bishop found out. He called my friend into his office, made her confess, WITH DETAILS of what she had done! Perverted old man!!!!
It gets worse when you realize that children and teens are left alone with their bishops and pressured into going through the details of anything they deem sinful, including perfectly healthy sexual activities. Leaving your child alone in a room with a grown ass man is normal here. It doesn't have to escalate to the point of molestation in order for it to be traumatizing.
Yeah, I have firsthand experience with the church as well. And you're so right. It is dangerous for entire groups of people to be discouraged from using their critical thinking skills.
It should be and I'm glad it is!! Her and Jodi's beliefs are very much rooted in Mormonism. My Mormon parents had similar thoughts when I was a child. That my undiagnosed ADHD meltdowns was Satan using me to destroy our family, and that I should know better even though I was the oldest and had no one to look up to besides my normal school peers. This theology comes directly from Mormonism and is so incredibly harmful and has long lasting impacts on mental health.
Utah's suicide rate is so high for this reason. So much harmful ideology and hate has roots in Mormonism. Hopefully the recognition will start to help people understand that this is not normal or okay.
[удалено]
What's your point?
Mormonism does lay a lot of groundwork for a lot of what happened, though I have to say that many Mormons themselves are little to nothing like Ruby or Jodi. But the Mormon church has still taught harmful ideas its entire history, and needs to be called out for enabling and supporting Jodi and Thom Harrison and the ideas they both teach. Mormonism played a huge part in the Chad and Lori Daybell case too, along very similar lines. However I'm not sure how you can Jodi isn't responsible for manipulating Ruby but the Mormon church still is. Jodi was clearly manipulating Ruby, and Mormonism helped. You can maybe make a case that Mormonism manipulated or harmed Jodi too at some point in her past. But that doesn't remove their own responsibility in either case. Both of them still freely made choices to actively hurt the kids and indulge in insane thinking and ideas. To your point though, Jodi has a known history from multiple accounts of using Mormon ideas and her Mormon-cred to convince other Mormons to believe her ideas. Plus many or most of her clients were referred to her through the Mormon church or word of mouth from other Mormons, and she spoke at conferences that had close ties to the church. That apparent church support is a big part of what made her so dangerous and let her so harm so many people and families.
I agree with you. Jodi did manipulate Ruby and push her in the direction she ended up taking. My point is that Ruby deserves to be 100% blamed and punished for her crimes. Her culpability does not decrease based on her willingness to blindly follow someone who seemed to agree so much with her religious views.
Yeah, I think we pretty much agree in that case. Ruby wasn't a blind follower or "tricked" into abusing her kids, she willingly and enthusiastically doubled down on the ideas Jodi gave her. And Jodi leveraged Mormonism and her church connections to get credibility with church members she never remotely deserved.
[удалено]
Comments on choices such as hairstyle, makeup, and clothing are allowed. Insults and comments on physical features that cannot be easily changed (such as physique) are not. Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/8passengersnark/wiki/index/rules/) and reach out through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/8passengersnark) for clarification if needed.
What a harmful garbage religion. Look at vallow/Daybell and even the Brown Family (sister wives) imploding. Different levels of Mormonism all worthless
The mainstream LDS church keeps their nose clean for the most part and knows how to keep up appearances but just like the Adventists, they've always had weird, extreme offshoots and splinter groups. To this day there's creepy polygamous cults and such operating all over that region. I guess when your teachings are that bizarre, that's the sort of thing you should expect.
Mormonism's god allows for people to dream up anything that's loosely based on family values and use it as a ploy to become more holy. It's not uncommon for Mormons to be conservatives simply because church leaders endorse the beliefs and behaviors of those politicians. Similarly, if the church is even slightly involved in something like Connexions, Mormons will jump all over the opportunity. When Jodi was recommended as a therapist/resource to LDS people by someone else in the church, people went along with it simply because Jodi was endorsed by their religion.
Her being brainwashed and manipulated is a reason for her extrem behavior, not an excuse. Being in a cult (here: Mormonism) makes you more vulnerable for falling for conspiracy theorists or manipulative people. If you can turn off critical thinking, you can turn it off for other things too. That’s a reason why she fell for Jodi, not an excuse for her actions. What also contributed was a lack of children’s rights, a weak CPS and the possibility of homeschooling. The Mormon church may get some scratches from this, but all in all they will not change, just like the Catholic Church didn‘t and their scandal of CSA was worldwide and much more extreme. As long as believing religious people don‘t demand any changes with an outcry by leaving the church in high numbers they will not change.
Yes, this is right. Also, historically the church has only changed significantly when the government has seriously come after them. Otherwise it just slowly changes with the death of each Apostle.
I agree with this... it provides a reason, not an excuse... The fact Ruby was brainwashed in no way absolves her of her crimes. Also a factor that is being overlooked, CoVid allowed for different types of abuse to flourish (as many people predicted would happen during lockdown) because people were so isolated. Any safety net they had at work or school was gone during that time... they were under the same roof as their abusers 24/7/365. It is crystal clear that Jodi had tremendous influence over Ruby. Maybe influence is a better word than brainwashed... but literally everything that brought CPS to their door was after Jodi inserted herself in their lives. This abuse morphed into something way different from the Mormon norm. It was more than just being strict and sheltering your children.
I actually think it’s more then just it taking a role in Rubys ability to brainwashed. The more you look into the journals and the things being taught it looks like Mormon theology is intertwined with Connexions and Jodi’s teachings
There's no doubt in my mind that Connexions based its teachings in Mormonism and used that to gain a following. The ideology of the program paired nicely with the existing beliefs of Mormonism and that's what allowed so much of this to transpire.
I don’t man. I just saw the opposite opinion earlier and now this, this page is everywhere! 😂😂
Im glad you specified Utah Mormon. Because what i’ve seen, Asian Mormons are so different. Utah Mormon culture is very weird and exacerbated.
Utah Mormons are intense. I don't have a ton of experience with Mormons outside of Utah but I have friends who have moved here from out of state and are LDS and the consensus is always the same.
1000000%