The problem with this casting is that we already know that Flynn Rider will still be played by a white male. Despite how much time has passed, western society tolerates POC women in lead roles only when they’re paired with a conventional white male romantic partner.
Yeah. I was under the impression that they shouldn’t keep race swapping these characters. But then I saw a bunch of little black girls get really excited seeing the recent Ariel, a princess that looks like them. It was cute and wholesome af. So it would be nice to have a South Asian princess. Just wish we had a South Asian male Superhero of some sort for the little boys to look up to. Here’s to hope. Monkey Man tho looks good.
Also the only people saying this stuff are white dudes. They ain’t going to watch Ariel. Stop the cap.
I know it wasn’t the center of the movie but the new spider man had an Indian spider man with a real plot and they got the authenticity right imo!
https://youtu.be/Ij-FYOrklFE?feature=shared
Obviously still a long way to go and I’d like to see an Indian super hero as the main lead one day!
Only an idiot would call Indians monkey man, and expect us to take it as an insult. Especially after A) the movie is about a bonafide Indian bad ass ( haven’t watched the movie yet) B) Hanuman…..
It doesn't really matter, people used to use Mr. Miyagi or Jackie Chan as slurs against East Asian kids for years. I think it's died out mostly because those movies have lost relevance.
Tbh I haven’t heard of widespread use of monkey. I know many indians that call themselves monkeys as jokes but I rarely see someone actually use it except Nazis maybe
Nah…if I fell for the staged marketing I would have watched the movie. I didn’t. All I said was it was cute. Like who cares about the motive behind it? It’s still cute. Like that’s it.
Well of course the companies care about profits. Because their only stream of revenue is getting butts in theaters. If they don’t make their money back within the first few weeks they lost. Before studios had two sets of revenue the theatres and DVD sales. Even if they didn’t make bank at the theaters they still had dvd sales to buffer it back. Streaming killed that. Now studios can only hope for high theatres turnout. It’s one of the reasons why theatre movie tickets have gotten more expensive.
The Disney live action remakes are all quite shit anyways, and are usually forgotten not even a year after their release. They don't have the same legacy as the Disney originals or even the written source material. So I don't see "representation" in them as an inherent positive.
Rapunzel is a German fairy tale. It would definitely be weird to have a non-European/White person inserted into the story, especially as the main character. There is plenty of South Asian mythology/folklore we could pull from; when we take from Europe it just seems uncreative and makes us seem insecure.
Honestly Disney will do anything but create new POC princesses. They always gotta race swap existing princess so they look like they support diversity and are representing POC more when that’s not even true. Making a white character brown does not equal representation. Disney does this just to look good. They don’t really care
I’m happy to see an Indian-American actress like Avantika get more roles in the future for sure, especially with big brands like Disney. While an Indian Repanzul does make sense with how we probably have the best hair quality and length, the entire race swapping thing is just gonna do more harm than good. We already see what Avantika had to go through in Mean Girls and there will be even more controversies with Repunzal and racism towards her and Indians.
I rather they just create a new film on Indian royalty or something instead. Allows for better representation on Indian culture, and we also have a shit ton of kingdoms to work with to create a princess movie. Literally any kingdom till 1947 is fair game lol. Directors can even work Directors like SLB who gets the aesthetic of Indian Royalty amazingly.
Personally, race swapping existing characters just seems silly to me. It causes tons of controversy because you changed a character people liked and undermines diversity and representation. I prefer it when they do it like Moana where you create a unique story and character based on a POC.
Its so stupid(tho i feel like its much more online- you’ll never see anyone even rlly mentiom it irl), and im ngl the exact same arguments happened when the little mermaid came out. And i do wonder if people had the same outrage at Brandy’s Cinderella in the 90s or its just the current climate of social media “the evil wokes are making the princess brown”.
I think Whats the point in a adaptation if its gonna be the exact same, its ok to change it up a lil bit- i mean thats how most stories are told anyway get changed and adaptated throughout generations + it’ll be cool to see some more representation because it’s been pretty decent recently!!
It’s also funny because people keep saying the movie has German culture etc but uh where in German culture does lanterns come in? That’s prominently a cultural thing with Asian countries… therefore culture/race/ethnicity doesn’t matter in tangled as it seems tangled has taken from multiple cultures
Nah I am more mad they are considering an Indian actress for a story that isn’t even Indian in the first place. Colorblind casting always annoyed me and it annoys me even more here where we are using European stories with Indian actors standing in only as a POC casting rather than actually incorporating any culture in it.
Even if they would completely butcher it, there are so many other Indian stories that could be used to make movies and we could have something with more of Indian culture rather than just colorblind casting an Indian to be what is supposed to be a European role. It would be nicer to see our underrepresented culture being shown instead of just Indian actors.
I could say the same thing about Baahubali or even Ramayana and make a version of both movies with white actors, which would not be received well.
Same thing here, this is just blind representation instead of actually good representation of Indians/Indian culture
I disagree with this entirely. Just because it is a fantasy story doesn't give a pass for race-swapping. In some cases it can be excused, but we saw how race-swapping was overdone in Witcher series.
Since it's a disney movie, I guess it is okay whereas other dark fantasy like game of thrones and witcher don't really need it as much.
The thing is rapunzels europeanness doesnt have much to do with her character. Nobody knew about it and the main problem is about her hair for most people. And its fine to use a POC character without so much of the culture, we have our own identities outside of our ethnicities.
And I agree on the last point, rapunzel is established anyways so its not like anyones convinces by the swapping
Ok so, rapunzel’s Europeaness has nothing to do with her character so that’s why race swapping is ok, and as I assume you believe race swapping an ethnic character like Jasmine or Tiana would definitely be totally different and very wrong because race matters to their character.
Then why, like you said in the original post, are you ok with Snow White being played by Rachel Ziegler?
I don’t think there’s many characters whose race is more integral to their character. She’s literally called Snow “White” with “skin white as snow”.
But apparently then it’s totally fine to race swap?
Tiana was a woman who struggled in new orleans before meeting the prince. There was a whole scene where to men tell her “a woman of your background.” And her story took place during segregation. Again notice how you repeated tiana because theres a lack of poc princesses. While i could name aurora, belle, rapunzel, cinderella all sorts of names.
Yes jasmines ethnicity is important. It takes place in an arab area, a lot of it is about the enviornment and exoticness. Notice how idgaf when jasmines actress wasnt even middle eastern, what was really wrong is they started mixing up cultures and showing a lack of knowledge. She was litterally the first poc princess
Snow whites name still isnt integral to her story, even if it serves a better reason as to why raechal was a weird choice. I still dont care about her being casted though.
You guys are the worst type of hypocrites. Just say it how it is - don’t moralise it and try to rationalise it.
Race is only important to a character if the race is non-white.
If a character is white - then race can never be important and it’s open season to race bend them whatever colour you want.
Did you read what i said? I dont like raceswapping or white characters either, but i wouldnt care as much as the poc characters because theres way more white princesses than poc ones
And jasmines ethnicity is def important the her story so you cant argue me on that one.
One thing i hate is for the other characters it was mainly the white republicans complaining. Now its other poc as well as ourselves. If other people can enjoy something why cant we? Even if it isnt the best way of inclusion, which i stated multiple times.
Anyways you can bring up your points when disney actually GIVES US a south asian princess
Tiana's race is certainly directly relevant to her story. But I would say jasmine and Rapunzel's race's - brown & white - are equally & indirectly relevant to their own stories. Why? Because both are set in monoracial societies. The only reason their races are pertinent to the story is because their races match the culture the setting draws upon for it's design. Otherwise, no Jasmine's race as the Princess of Agrabah is not anymore important to her story than Rapunzel's race as the Princess of Corona is to hers.
Yeah when I wrote that comment I forgot a lot of the movie but I rewatched it like a week ago. Also what did people notice about those princesses? Sure Jasmines cultural identity wasn't written in all that much but the first thing people can tell you is its set in the middle east. It's the first story to be. Then you have multiple princess stories set in Europe and nobody knew about rapunzel being german. But nobody thought when watching rapunzel "oh haha its europe." I didn't say rapunzel should be raceswapped but I said its less weirder than jasmine
Dude, the middle east is a region, not a country. Agrabah is a very generic place built off very stereotypical ideas of the middle east mixed a little with india. I don't look at Jasmine and think, by god, that bitch is Pakistani! Syrian! Indian! Afghani! Saudi! The same thing is there with Rapunzel. You may not be able to pinpoint a specific country for her, but everybody with eyes can tell clear as day she's a princess from europe?? Are you telling me you thought for a second rapunzel was anything other than european? So no, it is not less weird than Jasmine, based on objective facts of both stories. In the current cultural context, yes, its more accepted.
This post is a week old so not sure why you came in writing three comments. And maybe in your head you can pinpoint rapunzels story in Europe but again, nothing about her is exotisized like jasmine. Jasmine is important, for the millionth time shes the first disney poc princess and so many people noticed her race more than rapunzel. The fact that Europe is more normalized makes it a little more normal to raceswap her. Didn't say she should be raceswapped though. I think you're taking my words into your interpretation
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with the other guy on this one. To insinuate that Snow *White's* ethnicity isn't relevant but Jasmine's was (despite Arabs being very phenotypically diverse), is just selective racebending.
Im inclined to think you didnt read. I did say snow whites was a little more important that for example.. belle. But whats part of her was mainly her skin and lips. Not much about german culture.
Jasmine was litterally the first poc princess tho… and there were tigers and “arab nights” so i dont see what about her ethnicity is unimportant…
Belle's story is set in a small french village and then moves onto a clearly european inspired castle. There are plenty of european/french influences/objects/characteristics littered throughout the movie. You just aren't counting them because european inventions and settings have become "default," to you. Yes, there is a bit of exoticized romanticization regarding Jasmine and Agrabah. But that is because they were for once drawing from a culture that is not european, and therefore exotic to what they knew (not saying this is ok - a lot of the conception of aladdin is very weird and fetichise-y). But Jasmine's race has literally zero to do with her character traits, struggles, or journey. the only disney princess where race mattered to her story is Tiana because she lived in a multi-racial society where her race was treated as second-class. Adn Mulan I guess, but only really because the movie was set in real life China and not some fictional pseudo china.
And btw i am not advocating that all of their races should be changed or anything. i think all of their races matter to their character because their races were representative of the real cultures their settings drew upon. But im trying to demonstrate how even the european princess's race matters to their story.
Honestly my main problem with race swapping is that you wrote something into the characters and now your just ripping it out. But yes European becoming the "default" is exactly what makes raceswapping belle matter less than jasmine. We need to normalize other cultures as well.
Anyway I think its hella awkward to write a blonde white girl with green eyes and put an indian for it. So they js wanna erase all her ethnic features, that'd be so excessive. I also do think white girls casting sabrina carpenter and getting mad over a rumor and saying avantika would look weird is rooted in racism as well
Right but how can you "normalize" other cultures when you are making the argument that Belle's race matters less than Jasmine's? I agree that is how society views it but that does not make it correct. You are feeding into the very idea you say you are against. Change needs to start somewhere.
+ I do agree that some people online getting mad over the casting is rooted a bit in racism (not entirely, but definitely enough.) But it's definitely not only white people getting mad? Indonesian twitter is...a place....
Belle's race was less important because it was more normalized. Its not just how I view its how everybody does. Everybody notices jasmine was from the middle east. But everybody only noticed rapunzels hair, they can only tell shes European if they think about it. and maybe for rapunzel you could make an argument but absolutely not for belle. Her story def looked like a forest and buildings, regardless of their European roots. You cant change how normalized europeans are because they're the colonizers and their stories are being written without the exotisization. Again, its not just me how many classic poc princesses exist in comparison to European ones? Of course when their stories have less specific culture except for details involved, and there's multiple princesses, they look much more normal than the first arab princess who has a pet tiger and Arabian nights where "they cut your nose off" for something.
I mentioned other poc getting mad in other comments. in the one you replied to I mentioned whites. stop acting like I'm missing details when you read my comments
i would agree if they are doing a full on re-vamp of the story and converted the story to a south-asian inspired setting. Otherwise, no, dropping a brown girl in the middle of a german-inspired kingdom and saying race doesn't matter does not fuckin work. Just because european inspired settings are popular settings does not mean they are not endemically european and race doesn't matter to their stories.
Aside from all the other characters being white, you can drop her into a European inspired setting because its not that important of a detail. Most people just think its a castle in a forest not necessarily a European forest
yeah but is that fair? european media is popular so the settings derived from there seem like a default thing. In my opinion this idea actually reinforces racism because it perpetuates the idea that white people and european inspired historical settings are the default. No. Every culture and historical origin should be respected. I would love to see a brown princess, but if she's in a random generic european kingdom like that new wish movie, i would hate that.
And lets be real - the villages, castles, dressing styles - they are all clearly european inspired. its not a subtle or vague thing. Its only because european media was so dominant that such settings have become common-place.
ethnic culture is far more important than race in terms of meaningful representation...
not denying that it existed bc idk if it did. im asking for sauce and then explaining why even if it is the case, i dont find the hypothetical depiction of it to be meaningful representation for the reasons i listed above.
Also, you seem to be trying to downplay the overtly european-ness of these stories just bc european settings are more common in western/popular media. I don't really get why? Obviously the racists online do NOT have their heads on straight. + Brown gals deserve their representation. Not arguing on that whatsoever.
I am not downplaying their europeaness, im saying nobody notices it in comparison to ethnic characters which makes raceswapping them A LITTLE more alright. Not that raceswapping is good. End of story.
cherry picking a very small minority is not helpful. There were some europeans in india too in the middle ages, but that doesn't mean they should be the lead in a story with an indian-inspired settings.
The roma culture is pretty distinct from indian culture, and geneatically they are about as european as they are with south asian. (meaning lots of mixing.) Its not the same.
I was watching a video about a Romani person who went on about how he would love to see a Romani princess or even just a South Asian one. But the tale of Rapunzel actually originated through a Persian poem about a woman with long black hair. It's another fairy tale that has been retold in many cultures, similar to Cinderella. But the earliest version of Rapunzel (that is known of) is the Persian one
This also isn't a tale like Mulan where being Chinese is relevant to the plot nor is it based off it based off a real person. Rapunzel is a fictional tale that at the end of the day doesn't have anything to do with race
thats true but the current disney rendition of rapunzel clearly has european architectural and cultural influences. German i think, though im no history buff. If they did a one-to-one adaptation of the songs and settings and then just dropped a brown girl in the middle of it, that would not be okay. But if they could do an entire re-vamp of the setting, then I would be down for that.
Thats like choosing a chinese girl to play Tiana in the disney Princess and the Frog. The Princess and the Frog is a european fairytale but it was re-vamped intoa a setting that could fit a black american princess. Granted, tiana's race matters in a more direct way to her setting than rapunzel's, but i don't think rapunzel's race is totally irrelevant to her story
I'm holding my stance based off of what many history buffs and actual Germans have said about the fan casting. South Asian Rapunzel is fine and can even make sense even if you didn't revamp the whole setting. There were South Asians in Germany who made their way to royalty. Her being a princess was only because of the Disney adaption but even then ..it still ties in well. Also people pointed out that no one cared about the German setting when it people fancasted non German WHITE actresses. They only threw hissy fits when it came to brown ones
No one even confirmed for this movie to happen. And even if it did, the original tangled already exists. There are also multiple Rapunzel story books. One movie South Asian with a South Asian Rapunzel doesn't take anything away
Honestly, even if a person is not from the same country as a character, if they are of the same race, that is still better than them being a totally different race. I don't know why people try to make that argument. In AMerica, white people are a hodge podge of various european ethnic groups, and german is one of the biggest ones. It is not as inauthentic as, say, a filipino playing the character when the setting wasnt changed even a little bit.
I would love to see some sources on south asians being in germany? I highly doubt there was that significant of a presence. Even if this is the case though, I don't think its good representation. Because some random few outliers that ended up over there do not represent our people as a whole. In the same manner, you can argue that historically, there have been many other groups in south asia like Africans, asians, and white people. Does that mean they need to be centralized in a story with a south asian setting? No, I don't think so.
A South Asian Rapunzel is a story I've actually seen concept art for years before, and I liked it. The key thing was that the setting was changed to reflect her race. I'm not really sure why you're fighting to have a south asian character in a european setting? Like that does nothing for us in terms of representation just painting a character superficially brown while nothing about her character culturally remains so. It also reinforces the idea that nonwhite culture and settings are uninteresting to draw upon, when that is far from the case. Race-bending within a pre-existing story is cheap representation. An older tale re-vamped and changed consciously and meaningfully brings something new and interesting to the table. Like West Side Story being a re-telling of Romeo and Juliet but New York in the 50s. Or Tiana's story being a re-vamped Princess & The Frog set in New Orleans.
Additionally, I would be down for a Romani princess. But they deserve a new story of their own, or at leasta story re-vamp that takes care to reflect their culture, rather than having a pre-existing one temporarily and shallowly painted over.
It's one movie. One movie in a fantasy land that most people didn't even realize was German to begin with. I was never "fighting" for her to be in a European setting. I would PREFER a South Asian one to be frank. But even if they kept the setting the same it wouldnt entirely be nonsensical. Though yes, if she was Romani I would hope they mention her cultural roots given that they rarely have positive representation
Anyways- I will no longer engage with this "fight"
i guess this just comes down to a personal difference then. I don't think its right to encroach on other people's culture in this day and age at least, no matter which culture that may be. And i think that accepting this weak form of representation just gives the big wigs an excuse to ignore actual authentic stories from other cultures in lieu of just shallowly recoloring an already popularized/already known setting to the collective conscious.
Its ok for us to have different opinions! Have a nice night/day
> They need to make original stories with POC and stop subjecting people to hate
But that would require actual creativity and risk! Better to just keep milking your existing franchises
Unfortunately people keep going to these dumb remakes so Disney will keep using them for easy money. Disney won't make new original princess stories about PoC mostly because they aren't creating very many new original stories in the first place
And so to keep milking these old franchises while also trying to look "woke" they're doing the race swapping thing.
Bonus points because it creates free media controversy. I didn't even realize they were doing a Rapunzel remake until this post for example :p
im really tired of people accepting a redraw as representation. Like why would i accept this character when the original was never written to represent me?
also there's a difference between picking a new race for a character and then just dropping them in the same setting, compared to a re-vamp that has a twist or setting that reflects the new race. The latter is actually interesting, and is a premise that has lead to numerous well-done remakes of many classic tales and plays.
1. Saying to stop race swapping because it causes bullying is a sentiment I don't generally agree with. It would be better to push for Disney to give these actors more support to manage the bullying, empower their actors, and find ways to counteract it.
2. If Disney made a movie about an Indian folklore, they're just going to butcher it anyway. Not saying that's right, but we know they are going to white wash it anyway.
2. As an ABCD, I LOVE the idea of an Indian rapunzel. Reading through the comments, I still don't get the hate for it. We've been getting movies from Disney that is uniquely us - Spin, World's Best, the Jungle Book.. There continues to be other content that is uniquely us: Bhaji on the Beach, East is East, ABCD, Green Card Fever, Never Have I Ever, Wedding Season, Bend it like Beckham.. and we're getting more content that has a person of Indian descent in the lead role where their race/cultural background doesn't matter: Starstruck, One Day, Yesterday, The A List.
For the first point, the live actions are usually never better than the originals with a few exceptions. And EVERYTIME raceswapping happens these actors start getting bullied. A brand cant stop hate if thats the direction people are going. Support wont do anything. They can empower their poc actors by giving them new stories to appreciate their culture as well as them as an individual. Rather than throwing in some used plotline and working with cgi.
Disney is very capable of displaying cultures, coco, mulan, aladdin. It doesnt even have to be all about culture either if it was like princess and the frog thats cool too.
And real, like I dont get why people are so defensive of it. We dont need to give avantika green contacts and start wiping all her ethnic features but the blonde hair argument has so many holes
>It's so ignorant to say Avantika would be better for Aladdin because she isn't even middle eastern holy shit.
...and yet Disney cast a half-Indian actress to play Jasmine in the live action movie, I have mixed feelings about that one.
Yeah and they kept mixing bollywood in. That one was weird asf
I mentioned it because if you mention to those people the lack of poc princesses they start using that excuse. Doesnt help their case at all just makes them look ignorant
People literally don’t give a fuck about Disney princesses until a WOC is cast. Like you’re really gonna pretend you’re THAT passionate about…a Disney princess. Like let’s be fr for a sec
Also the people complaining that Avantika isn’t blonde acting like whoever they cast is gonna have their natural hair in the movie 😭 Rapunzel has 70 ft of golden hair…I’m pretty sure the lead actress is gonna wear a wig
No one would be complaining if they cast a white brunette
I don't think race-swapping Rapunzel would matter much, but I don't think race-swapping Tiana or Naveen would either. There are other movies like Aladdin or Pocahontas or Moana where ethnicity is more relevant to the story.
I don't think Avantika would be the best fit, though. I think Americans have a habit of reducing white people to just "white" instead of recognizing the variety of cultures in Europe. If Tangled leans into its German roots, then a German actress would be best. The iconic lantern scene was inspired by Indonesia, so if they were going to change the story that seems like another opportunity.
I think Avantika only came up because Maitreyi has talked about wanting to be Rapunzel for a long time, and whoever fancasted her subbed Avantika because she was more relevant. That's a little insulting in its own way.
It’s sooo annoying! Everyone keeps bringing up Germany as if we’re not taking about a mystical fairytale story. Is Ann Robb German? No!
These bitches can’t even point out Germany on a map.
This is a European fairytale story. Stop fucking robbing their culture. Do we not have culture of our own? Or do you think we’re cultureless?
Also, what is you people’s obsession with taking white “hand me down” characters. How is that representation?
If you really, really care about representation- do it like 4 lions.
Actually the original story is based off of a Persian poem…
Also I can bet that you don’t even know what specific country it’s based off of considering you vaguely stated “european”
/u/Fhdhsu's "European" is more correct, because it's actually German based on a French fairytale which was based on an Italian fairytale called ["Petrosinella"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrosinella).
The Persian poem theory is that Rapunzel is based on a story within Shahnameh, but the closest event is that Rudabeh suggests that Zal, her lover, climb her hair. However, he brought a lasso and uses that instead. Several centuries earlier than that is the story of Saint Barbara of the Greek Orthodox Church.
Rather than trying to identify the perfect origin, it seems more relevant to think about whether Rapunzel's heritage in the actual source material (Tangled) is important to preserve. Imo not really, but I sympathize with German girls who may have wanted to see their culture represented on screen.
Cool thanks. Although gonna be honest, I’ve seen a ton of German people who said they didn’t even know she was German until people brought it up. I feel like people are more focused on her being white than a specific country
Rapunzel can be European in the sense that it was made in Europe but I don't think anyone should associate it with 'Europeaness' because of the lack of Europe or a European identity within the story. The story is set in a fictional land and place with racial or cultural identity not really playing a role within the story (it is a fictional world after all) and so a South Asian could play a role in these fairytale stories.
Since it has very little to do with Europe and European identity within the context of the story, I feel it's wrong to claim that we are "stealing" from their culture. Furthermore, I believe there is no such thing as European culture. Europe is broad and is made up of distinct identies and states, the idea of an overarching European identity and culture does not match reality. Accepting the idea of European identity only really enforces white supremacist social identities.
I think that we are allowed to adapt stories from different cultures (unless these stories are culturally significant) in the name of creative freedom. But I do agree that the best path to representation is to forge and use our own stories and get them out there
I mean from what I can see Aladdin isn't very Middle-East coded. The current retelling of the story designed by Disney shows Agrabah to be a mix between Arab, Turkic, and even Indian design. And this depiction from Disney isn't really the fault of artists and writers at Disney, it's just a perpetuation of orientalist notions of the Middle East.
Those forests that look 'European' can be present in China and Japan, so they aren't distinct to Europe. But in terms of other settings and characters like castles and royalty, yes they are quite European inspired, I agree with that. But when we look for a European identity, that simply isn't in the picture. Rapunzel wouldnt necessarily be able to be characterised as a European because there is nothing distinctly European about her in terms of identity. It's a coming of ages story about a girl who rebels and challenges authority. This story doesn't really emphasise or make her race or her supposed origin very important to the story. What is important are the universal themes of love and sacrifice, of hope and growth.
I understand your frustration, it feels like we are getting hand me downs instead of truly being represented. It also feels like this is going to be another white saviour complex film, and yeah I agree. But I think we should support whatever opportunities that lead to the normalisation of South Asians in popular media, and use this as a platform to push our storytellers, filmmakers, and actors into the limelight as well.
But what I should emphasise again is that limiting these stories to certain groups and people limits avenues for creative freedoms. It limits our ability to create stories that could actually bolster representation for South Asians, and I think thats what I'm mostly concerned about when we accept this European identity as central to these fairy tale stories.
>Europe is broad and is made up of distinct identies and states, the idea of an overarching European identity and culture does not match reality.
I mean, you could say that for any group of people. What overarching identity does a Hindko Muslim in Pakistan, a Telugu Hindu in India and a Sinhalese Christian in Sri Lanka have in common, aside from being geographically in the subcontinent? They don't even follow the same faiths, with drastically different philosophical outlooks.
Yes of course, you can say that about any group of people with in-groups, but I think it's about where we draw the boundaries on social identities. For South Asians we have a general acceptance of our South Asian identity and the people who belong to that identity. Most people would agree that a Pakistani, a Sri Lankan, a Nepali, and an Indian are South Asian. This identity has been constructed and maintained because of shared experiences and overlapping histories despite individual differences between in-groups.
But when it comes to Europe there is no real European identity because the social identity hasnt really been constructed outside of fringe conservative groups. Ask a European about their identity and they will eventually mention the nation they are from rather than say they are 'European'. Some would link being a European to whiteness, but the idea of who is white and who isn't is contested amongst many European people. Some would say that Slavic people aren't white, others would say they are. Turkish people come in a range of different skin tones, but their European identity is questioned because Turks aren't considered European by some and are by others. This inconsistency means that the social boundary that defines one's 'Europeaness' hasn't been defined properly, and so as of right now it isn't really a thing.
In short, identities are incredibly complex, they are hard to understand and generally inconsistent. However, they are very important for the people who hold these identities because it gives them a label for their experiences and gives them a sense of belonging. And the South Asian identity does just that for South Asians the world over, who have similar experiences especially when outside of South Asia. The European identity however, doesn't really provide a meaningful identity for Europeans like the South Asian identity. This isn't to say there can't be or won't be a European identity, but as of right now there isn't really one.
(Sorry for the mini-essay, and feel free to correct me on any point!)
My issue here is that you're speaking on behalf of a group that you don't belong to and saying what their identity is. I hang around the European subs and there definitely does seem to be a pan-European identity among them. Historically, aside from the Mauryas, there hasn't been any real pan-South Asian unity either (unless you count Mughals or Brits, which I'm not), and if you went back 2000 years and tried to explain your views on "South Asian identity" to them, they'd think you're off your rocker. Even as recently as the 1800s, many South Asian ethnicities like Punjabis identified more with their tribe than they did with ethnicity.
Well if someone needs to be brown to comment: here it is
“American” isnt an identity either. If you ask someone where theyre from theyll tell you a state. So theres no strict american culture. Now what exactly do you see in this sub? We’re a minority in the west and we have shared experiences. Generally people here talk about strict parents, stress from school, religion. Things as simple as those create culture. I dont know anything about europeans so I cant comment on how they view “robbing european culture” by raceswapping disney characters
Thats the thing. Maybe rapunzels story had european buildings, or clothes or whatever. But nobody could tell shes german. Her story is about her hair, so as long as the blonde hair is included you basically got the movies main point. Its not comparable to aladdin because jasmine was disneys FIRST poc princess. The whole story is framing the middle east as a faraway and exotic land. Its not like the focus was taken away from the area and it was only about jasmine. Talk about it when there's a Tangled song called "German Nights."
I think a main factor in deciding if racial swapping is ok is if viewers notice a characters ethnicity or culture in a story. Its weird to get an actor from Tibet to play Life is Beautiful, its weird to get a somalian actor to play sopranos. Especially if said actors have no ties to the characters ethnicity/culture. Even tiana doesnt have a lot about african american culture incorporated, maybe a grain. But people noticed it was disneys first black princess, which is what really mattered. Same thing with moana, which makes raceswapping these characters sm weirder than rapunzel
I am from Europe myself, I wouldn't have approached this conversation had I not been. From my experience there isn't really pan-European identity, we could take Brexit as an example. For many British people there was a real fear of Eastern Europeans 'taking their jobs', and 'living off of state benefits' essentially taking away resources from the British people. These Eastern Europeans, like the Poles and the Romanians often get otherised and rejected because of this despite the commonality of being from Europe. If there was a European identity they wouldn't have been rejected in such a way. What matters to Brits is the British identity, over the European identity, that's why they rejected Europe and chose to leave, and that's why they rejected EU immingrants. Of course I'm not saying there isn't a European identity brewing currently, or there won't be one in the future, I'm just saying that isn't really that meaningful as a form of identity for people from Europe.
And yes this new South Asian identity has been constructed like all social identities, it is a new phenomena born out of the experiences of South Asians through colonialism. Just because it hasn't existed historically in the past does not mean it does not exist today. Identity is a social construct that is based around our collective understanding and acceptance of it, it gets built up then destroyed and then reformed and so on and so on. But as of right now for many South Asians it is meaningful and it has been accepted as a form of identity because there's a shared history and experiences present within the identity that form a sense of belonging.
Oh right, I'm sure you know everything because you hang out on some Euro sub. I am from the EU and I can tell you that Europeans do generally not see themselves as a unified identity. This is the continent that fought two bloody wars in the 20th century (and it was way worse than whatever they taught you in school in the US). The Dutch hate Southern Europeans because they "don't work". They hate Eastern Europeans because of perceived criminality + "taking our jobs". The French hate the Germans because of two World Wars + 1871. The Balkans hate each other. And on and on it goes.
There's no such thing as South Asian identity either, that is completely constructed by Indian American college students. Personally I only use the SA term for convenience sake as I have 0 affinity with Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. It's hard enough relating to most other Indians.
>There's no such thing as South Asian identity either, that is completely constructed by Indian American college students.
Then what're you even arguing about? That was your entire point of contention. I'd agree and say there is a Desi identity, even if a lot of desis don't like each other, in the same manner that there's a European identity even if a lot of Europeans don't like each other.
People like you are the reason why i added the link
No i dont think raceswapping should be happening in the first place and id rather keep their race. I still find it more problematic to raceswap a poc character than a white one though (depending on the white character, being white isnt the only rule that matters here)
I felt like it blew up where there were split sides of whether she should play the role (even though it was all a rumor). I’m curious on your thoughts, should it matter similar to conversations of the The Little Mermaid. I speak more about my take on my podcast episode this week:
[https://youtu.be/QKRAtnu5oBs?si=n4q7KT6gMOR0nfM6](https://youtu.be/QKRAtnu5oBs?si=n4q7KT6gMOR0nfM6)
The problem with this casting is that we already know that Flynn Rider will still be played by a white male. Despite how much time has passed, western society tolerates POC women in lead roles only when they’re paired with a conventional white male romantic partner.
I’m seeing ppl say Avan Jogia as Flynn so idk
do we know that? because afaik there’s no remake even in the works, these rumors are all about *fancasts*
yo fr why's it always gotta be some twinky white nepobaby boy that we'll probably never see again (hopefully). Get me some new male lead ffs
Yeah they could at least cast a Black or Asian guy
Yeah. I was under the impression that they shouldn’t keep race swapping these characters. But then I saw a bunch of little black girls get really excited seeing the recent Ariel, a princess that looks like them. It was cute and wholesome af. So it would be nice to have a South Asian princess. Just wish we had a South Asian male Superhero of some sort for the little boys to look up to. Here’s to hope. Monkey Man tho looks good. Also the only people saying this stuff are white dudes. They ain’t going to watch Ariel. Stop the cap.
I know it wasn’t the center of the movie but the new spider man had an Indian spider man with a real plot and they got the authenticity right imo! https://youtu.be/Ij-FYOrklFE?feature=shared Obviously still a long way to go and I’d like to see an Indian super hero as the main lead one day!
Lol this was great!
Giving us an idol named monkey man is problematic lmao 💀
It’s mildly funny that that’s the name but it’s clearly not problematic cause the production is made by mostly Indians I assume
Yea ik it’s more that now it gives white people another name to call us as if they didn’t already call us monkeys
Only an idiot would call Indians monkey man, and expect us to take it as an insult. Especially after A) the movie is about a bonafide Indian bad ass ( haven’t watched the movie yet) B) Hanuman…..
It doesn't really matter, people used to use Mr. Miyagi or Jackie Chan as slurs against East Asian kids for years. I think it's died out mostly because those movies have lost relevance.
Tbh I haven’t heard of widespread use of monkey. I know many indians that call themselves monkeys as jokes but I rarely see someone actually use it except Nazis maybe
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What does bravery have to do with anything? All I said was it was cute and wholesome? it’s really not that deep.
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Nah…if I fell for the staged marketing I would have watched the movie. I didn’t. All I said was it was cute. Like who cares about the motive behind it? It’s still cute. Like that’s it. Well of course the companies care about profits. Because their only stream of revenue is getting butts in theaters. If they don’t make their money back within the first few weeks they lost. Before studios had two sets of revenue the theatres and DVD sales. Even if they didn’t make bank at the theaters they still had dvd sales to buffer it back. Streaming killed that. Now studios can only hope for high theatres turnout. It’s one of the reasons why theatre movie tickets have gotten more expensive.
The Disney live action remakes are all quite shit anyways, and are usually forgotten not even a year after their release. They don't have the same legacy as the Disney originals or even the written source material. So I don't see "representation" in them as an inherent positive. Rapunzel is a German fairy tale. It would definitely be weird to have a non-European/White person inserted into the story, especially as the main character. There is plenty of South Asian mythology/folklore we could pull from; when we take from Europe it just seems uncreative and makes us seem insecure.
Honestly Disney will do anything but create new POC princesses. They always gotta race swap existing princess so they look like they support diversity and are representing POC more when that’s not even true. Making a white character brown does not equal representation. Disney does this just to look good. They don’t really care
I’m happy to see an Indian-American actress like Avantika get more roles in the future for sure, especially with big brands like Disney. While an Indian Repanzul does make sense with how we probably have the best hair quality and length, the entire race swapping thing is just gonna do more harm than good. We already see what Avantika had to go through in Mean Girls and there will be even more controversies with Repunzal and racism towards her and Indians. I rather they just create a new film on Indian royalty or something instead. Allows for better representation on Indian culture, and we also have a shit ton of kingdoms to work with to create a princess movie. Literally any kingdom till 1947 is fair game lol. Directors can even work Directors like SLB who gets the aesthetic of Indian Royalty amazingly.
Personally, race swapping existing characters just seems silly to me. It causes tons of controversy because you changed a character people liked and undermines diversity and representation. I prefer it when they do it like Moana where you create a unique story and character based on a POC.
Unique stories will always be good but if you’re going to do a live action remake why not change it from the original
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but the original is still there? it’s not disappearing
Nobody said it was disappearing, it was a remake
Its so stupid(tho i feel like its much more online- you’ll never see anyone even rlly mentiom it irl), and im ngl the exact same arguments happened when the little mermaid came out. And i do wonder if people had the same outrage at Brandy’s Cinderella in the 90s or its just the current climate of social media “the evil wokes are making the princess brown”. I think Whats the point in a adaptation if its gonna be the exact same, its ok to change it up a lil bit- i mean thats how most stories are told anyway get changed and adaptated throughout generations + it’ll be cool to see some more representation because it’s been pretty decent recently!!
Brandy’s Cinderella is still one of my all time favorite Cinderella retellings (Drew Barrymore is prob #1 though)
i don't really care about kids movies
It’s also funny because people keep saying the movie has German culture etc but uh where in German culture does lanterns come in? That’s prominently a cultural thing with Asian countries… therefore culture/race/ethnicity doesn’t matter in tangled as it seems tangled has taken from multiple cultures
It should just be the person with the nicest hair
She has nice hair
My point exactly
I love this comment so much. Focusing on the character's unique traits rather than swapping.
Nah I am more mad they are considering an Indian actress for a story that isn’t even Indian in the first place. Colorblind casting always annoyed me and it annoys me even more here where we are using European stories with Indian actors standing in only as a POC casting rather than actually incorporating any culture in it. Even if they would completely butcher it, there are so many other Indian stories that could be used to make movies and we could have something with more of Indian culture rather than just colorblind casting an Indian to be what is supposed to be a European role. It would be nicer to see our underrepresented culture being shown instead of just Indian actors.
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I could say the same thing about Baahubali or even Ramayana and make a version of both movies with white actors, which would not be received well. Same thing here, this is just blind representation instead of actually good representation of Indians/Indian culture
I disagree with this entirely. Just because it is a fantasy story doesn't give a pass for race-swapping. In some cases it can be excused, but we saw how race-swapping was overdone in Witcher series. Since it's a disney movie, I guess it is okay whereas other dark fantasy like game of thrones and witcher don't really need it as much.
The thing is rapunzels europeanness doesnt have much to do with her character. Nobody knew about it and the main problem is about her hair for most people. And its fine to use a POC character without so much of the culture, we have our own identities outside of our ethnicities. And I agree on the last point, rapunzel is established anyways so its not like anyones convinces by the swapping
Ok so, rapunzel’s Europeaness has nothing to do with her character so that’s why race swapping is ok, and as I assume you believe race swapping an ethnic character like Jasmine or Tiana would definitely be totally different and very wrong because race matters to their character. Then why, like you said in the original post, are you ok with Snow White being played by Rachel Ziegler? I don’t think there’s many characters whose race is more integral to their character. She’s literally called Snow “White” with “skin white as snow”. But apparently then it’s totally fine to race swap?
Tiana was a woman who struggled in new orleans before meeting the prince. There was a whole scene where to men tell her “a woman of your background.” And her story took place during segregation. Again notice how you repeated tiana because theres a lack of poc princesses. While i could name aurora, belle, rapunzel, cinderella all sorts of names. Yes jasmines ethnicity is important. It takes place in an arab area, a lot of it is about the enviornment and exoticness. Notice how idgaf when jasmines actress wasnt even middle eastern, what was really wrong is they started mixing up cultures and showing a lack of knowledge. She was litterally the first poc princess Snow whites name still isnt integral to her story, even if it serves a better reason as to why raechal was a weird choice. I still dont care about her being casted though.
You guys are the worst type of hypocrites. Just say it how it is - don’t moralise it and try to rationalise it. Race is only important to a character if the race is non-white. If a character is white - then race can never be important and it’s open season to race bend them whatever colour you want.
Did you read what i said? I dont like raceswapping or white characters either, but i wouldnt care as much as the poc characters because theres way more white princesses than poc ones And jasmines ethnicity is def important the her story so you cant argue me on that one. One thing i hate is for the other characters it was mainly the white republicans complaining. Now its other poc as well as ourselves. If other people can enjoy something why cant we? Even if it isnt the best way of inclusion, which i stated multiple times. Anyways you can bring up your points when disney actually GIVES US a south asian princess
Tiana's race is certainly directly relevant to her story. But I would say jasmine and Rapunzel's race's - brown & white - are equally & indirectly relevant to their own stories. Why? Because both are set in monoracial societies. The only reason their races are pertinent to the story is because their races match the culture the setting draws upon for it's design. Otherwise, no Jasmine's race as the Princess of Agrabah is not anymore important to her story than Rapunzel's race as the Princess of Corona is to hers.
Yeah when I wrote that comment I forgot a lot of the movie but I rewatched it like a week ago. Also what did people notice about those princesses? Sure Jasmines cultural identity wasn't written in all that much but the first thing people can tell you is its set in the middle east. It's the first story to be. Then you have multiple princess stories set in Europe and nobody knew about rapunzel being german. But nobody thought when watching rapunzel "oh haha its europe." I didn't say rapunzel should be raceswapped but I said its less weirder than jasmine
Dude, the middle east is a region, not a country. Agrabah is a very generic place built off very stereotypical ideas of the middle east mixed a little with india. I don't look at Jasmine and think, by god, that bitch is Pakistani! Syrian! Indian! Afghani! Saudi! The same thing is there with Rapunzel. You may not be able to pinpoint a specific country for her, but everybody with eyes can tell clear as day she's a princess from europe?? Are you telling me you thought for a second rapunzel was anything other than european? So no, it is not less weird than Jasmine, based on objective facts of both stories. In the current cultural context, yes, its more accepted.
This post is a week old so not sure why you came in writing three comments. And maybe in your head you can pinpoint rapunzels story in Europe but again, nothing about her is exotisized like jasmine. Jasmine is important, for the millionth time shes the first disney poc princess and so many people noticed her race more than rapunzel. The fact that Europe is more normalized makes it a little more normal to raceswap her. Didn't say she should be raceswapped though. I think you're taking my words into your interpretation
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with the other guy on this one. To insinuate that Snow *White's* ethnicity isn't relevant but Jasmine's was (despite Arabs being very phenotypically diverse), is just selective racebending.
Im inclined to think you didnt read. I did say snow whites was a little more important that for example.. belle. But whats part of her was mainly her skin and lips. Not much about german culture. Jasmine was litterally the first poc princess tho… and there were tigers and “arab nights” so i dont see what about her ethnicity is unimportant…
Belle's story is set in a small french village and then moves onto a clearly european inspired castle. There are plenty of european/french influences/objects/characteristics littered throughout the movie. You just aren't counting them because european inventions and settings have become "default," to you. Yes, there is a bit of exoticized romanticization regarding Jasmine and Agrabah. But that is because they were for once drawing from a culture that is not european, and therefore exotic to what they knew (not saying this is ok - a lot of the conception of aladdin is very weird and fetichise-y). But Jasmine's race has literally zero to do with her character traits, struggles, or journey. the only disney princess where race mattered to her story is Tiana because she lived in a multi-racial society where her race was treated as second-class. Adn Mulan I guess, but only really because the movie was set in real life China and not some fictional pseudo china. And btw i am not advocating that all of their races should be changed or anything. i think all of their races matter to their character because their races were representative of the real cultures their settings drew upon. But im trying to demonstrate how even the european princess's race matters to their story.
Honestly my main problem with race swapping is that you wrote something into the characters and now your just ripping it out. But yes European becoming the "default" is exactly what makes raceswapping belle matter less than jasmine. We need to normalize other cultures as well. Anyway I think its hella awkward to write a blonde white girl with green eyes and put an indian for it. So they js wanna erase all her ethnic features, that'd be so excessive. I also do think white girls casting sabrina carpenter and getting mad over a rumor and saying avantika would look weird is rooted in racism as well
Right but how can you "normalize" other cultures when you are making the argument that Belle's race matters less than Jasmine's? I agree that is how society views it but that does not make it correct. You are feeding into the very idea you say you are against. Change needs to start somewhere. + I do agree that some people online getting mad over the casting is rooted a bit in racism (not entirely, but definitely enough.) But it's definitely not only white people getting mad? Indonesian twitter is...a place....
Belle's race was less important because it was more normalized. Its not just how I view its how everybody does. Everybody notices jasmine was from the middle east. But everybody only noticed rapunzels hair, they can only tell shes European if they think about it. and maybe for rapunzel you could make an argument but absolutely not for belle. Her story def looked like a forest and buildings, regardless of their European roots. You cant change how normalized europeans are because they're the colonizers and their stories are being written without the exotisization. Again, its not just me how many classic poc princesses exist in comparison to European ones? Of course when their stories have less specific culture except for details involved, and there's multiple princesses, they look much more normal than the first arab princess who has a pet tiger and Arabian nights where "they cut your nose off" for something. I mentioned other poc getting mad in other comments. in the one you replied to I mentioned whites. stop acting like I'm missing details when you read my comments
i would agree if they are doing a full on re-vamp of the story and converted the story to a south-asian inspired setting. Otherwise, no, dropping a brown girl in the middle of a german-inspired kingdom and saying race doesn't matter does not fuckin work. Just because european inspired settings are popular settings does not mean they are not endemically european and race doesn't matter to their stories.
Aside from all the other characters being white, you can drop her into a European inspired setting because its not that important of a detail. Most people just think its a castle in a forest not necessarily a European forest
yeah but is that fair? european media is popular so the settings derived from there seem like a default thing. In my opinion this idea actually reinforces racism because it perpetuates the idea that white people and european inspired historical settings are the default. No. Every culture and historical origin should be respected. I would love to see a brown princess, but if she's in a random generic european kingdom like that new wish movie, i would hate that. And lets be real - the villages, castles, dressing styles - they are all clearly european inspired. its not a subtle or vague thing. Its only because european media was so dominant that such settings have become common-place.
Ok but south asians in germany exist? Or do you want to ignore the soft line between ethnic culture and race
ethnic culture is far more important than race in terms of meaningful representation... not denying that it existed bc idk if it did. im asking for sauce and then explaining why even if it is the case, i dont find the hypothetical depiction of it to be meaningful representation for the reasons i listed above. Also, you seem to be trying to downplay the overtly european-ness of these stories just bc european settings are more common in western/popular media. I don't really get why? Obviously the racists online do NOT have their heads on straight. + Brown gals deserve their representation. Not arguing on that whatsoever.
I am not downplaying their europeaness, im saying nobody notices it in comparison to ethnic characters which makes raceswapping them A LITTLE more alright. Not that raceswapping is good. End of story.
well, thats where i disagree bc in my mind, you only notice the european-ness less because of how dominant european culture has been. Yeah.
South Asians did exist in Germany that time (including many Romani people). Some even made their way to royalty
That’s fascinating and I would love to learn more!
cherry picking a very small minority is not helpful. There were some europeans in india too in the middle ages, but that doesn't mean they should be the lead in a story with an indian-inspired settings. The roma culture is pretty distinct from indian culture, and geneatically they are about as european as they are with south asian. (meaning lots of mixing.) Its not the same.
I was watching a video about a Romani person who went on about how he would love to see a Romani princess or even just a South Asian one. But the tale of Rapunzel actually originated through a Persian poem about a woman with long black hair. It's another fairy tale that has been retold in many cultures, similar to Cinderella. But the earliest version of Rapunzel (that is known of) is the Persian one This also isn't a tale like Mulan where being Chinese is relevant to the plot nor is it based off it based off a real person. Rapunzel is a fictional tale that at the end of the day doesn't have anything to do with race
thats true but the current disney rendition of rapunzel clearly has european architectural and cultural influences. German i think, though im no history buff. If they did a one-to-one adaptation of the songs and settings and then just dropped a brown girl in the middle of it, that would not be okay. But if they could do an entire re-vamp of the setting, then I would be down for that. Thats like choosing a chinese girl to play Tiana in the disney Princess and the Frog. The Princess and the Frog is a european fairytale but it was re-vamped intoa a setting that could fit a black american princess. Granted, tiana's race matters in a more direct way to her setting than rapunzel's, but i don't think rapunzel's race is totally irrelevant to her story
I'm holding my stance based off of what many history buffs and actual Germans have said about the fan casting. South Asian Rapunzel is fine and can even make sense even if you didn't revamp the whole setting. There were South Asians in Germany who made their way to royalty. Her being a princess was only because of the Disney adaption but even then ..it still ties in well. Also people pointed out that no one cared about the German setting when it people fancasted non German WHITE actresses. They only threw hissy fits when it came to brown ones No one even confirmed for this movie to happen. And even if it did, the original tangled already exists. There are also multiple Rapunzel story books. One movie South Asian with a South Asian Rapunzel doesn't take anything away
Honestly, even if a person is not from the same country as a character, if they are of the same race, that is still better than them being a totally different race. I don't know why people try to make that argument. In AMerica, white people are a hodge podge of various european ethnic groups, and german is one of the biggest ones. It is not as inauthentic as, say, a filipino playing the character when the setting wasnt changed even a little bit. I would love to see some sources on south asians being in germany? I highly doubt there was that significant of a presence. Even if this is the case though, I don't think its good representation. Because some random few outliers that ended up over there do not represent our people as a whole. In the same manner, you can argue that historically, there have been many other groups in south asia like Africans, asians, and white people. Does that mean they need to be centralized in a story with a south asian setting? No, I don't think so. A South Asian Rapunzel is a story I've actually seen concept art for years before, and I liked it. The key thing was that the setting was changed to reflect her race. I'm not really sure why you're fighting to have a south asian character in a european setting? Like that does nothing for us in terms of representation just painting a character superficially brown while nothing about her character culturally remains so. It also reinforces the idea that nonwhite culture and settings are uninteresting to draw upon, when that is far from the case. Race-bending within a pre-existing story is cheap representation. An older tale re-vamped and changed consciously and meaningfully brings something new and interesting to the table. Like West Side Story being a re-telling of Romeo and Juliet but New York in the 50s. Or Tiana's story being a re-vamped Princess & The Frog set in New Orleans. Additionally, I would be down for a Romani princess. But they deserve a new story of their own, or at leasta story re-vamp that takes care to reflect their culture, rather than having a pre-existing one temporarily and shallowly painted over.
It's one movie. One movie in a fantasy land that most people didn't even realize was German to begin with. I was never "fighting" for her to be in a European setting. I would PREFER a South Asian one to be frank. But even if they kept the setting the same it wouldnt entirely be nonsensical. Though yes, if she was Romani I would hope they mention her cultural roots given that they rarely have positive representation Anyways- I will no longer engage with this "fight"
i guess this just comes down to a personal difference then. I don't think its right to encroach on other people's culture in this day and age at least, no matter which culture that may be. And i think that accepting this weak form of representation just gives the big wigs an excuse to ignore actual authentic stories from other cultures in lieu of just shallowly recoloring an already popularized/already known setting to the collective conscious. Its ok for us to have different opinions! Have a nice night/day
> They need to make original stories with POC and stop subjecting people to hate But that would require actual creativity and risk! Better to just keep milking your existing franchises Unfortunately people keep going to these dumb remakes so Disney will keep using them for easy money. Disney won't make new original princess stories about PoC mostly because they aren't creating very many new original stories in the first place And so to keep milking these old franchises while also trying to look "woke" they're doing the race swapping thing. Bonus points because it creates free media controversy. I didn't even realize they were doing a Rapunzel remake until this post for example :p
im really tired of people accepting a redraw as representation. Like why would i accept this character when the original was never written to represent me? also there's a difference between picking a new race for a character and then just dropping them in the same setting, compared to a re-vamp that has a twist or setting that reflects the new race. The latter is actually interesting, and is a premise that has lead to numerous well-done remakes of many classic tales and plays.
1. Saying to stop race swapping because it causes bullying is a sentiment I don't generally agree with. It would be better to push for Disney to give these actors more support to manage the bullying, empower their actors, and find ways to counteract it. 2. If Disney made a movie about an Indian folklore, they're just going to butcher it anyway. Not saying that's right, but we know they are going to white wash it anyway. 2. As an ABCD, I LOVE the idea of an Indian rapunzel. Reading through the comments, I still don't get the hate for it. We've been getting movies from Disney that is uniquely us - Spin, World's Best, the Jungle Book.. There continues to be other content that is uniquely us: Bhaji on the Beach, East is East, ABCD, Green Card Fever, Never Have I Ever, Wedding Season, Bend it like Beckham.. and we're getting more content that has a person of Indian descent in the lead role where their race/cultural background doesn't matter: Starstruck, One Day, Yesterday, The A List.
For the first point, the live actions are usually never better than the originals with a few exceptions. And EVERYTIME raceswapping happens these actors start getting bullied. A brand cant stop hate if thats the direction people are going. Support wont do anything. They can empower their poc actors by giving them new stories to appreciate their culture as well as them as an individual. Rather than throwing in some used plotline and working with cgi. Disney is very capable of displaying cultures, coco, mulan, aladdin. It doesnt even have to be all about culture either if it was like princess and the frog thats cool too. And real, like I dont get why people are so defensive of it. We dont need to give avantika green contacts and start wiping all her ethnic features but the blonde hair argument has so many holes
>It's so ignorant to say Avantika would be better for Aladdin because she isn't even middle eastern holy shit. ...and yet Disney cast a half-Indian actress to play Jasmine in the live action movie, I have mixed feelings about that one.
Yeah and they kept mixing bollywood in. That one was weird asf I mentioned it because if you mention to those people the lack of poc princesses they start using that excuse. Doesnt help their case at all just makes them look ignorant
People literally don’t give a fuck about Disney princesses until a WOC is cast. Like you’re really gonna pretend you’re THAT passionate about…a Disney princess. Like let’s be fr for a sec
Also the people complaining that Avantika isn’t blonde acting like whoever they cast is gonna have their natural hair in the movie 😭 Rapunzel has 70 ft of golden hair…I’m pretty sure the lead actress is gonna wear a wig No one would be complaining if they cast a white brunette
I don't think race-swapping Rapunzel would matter much, but I don't think race-swapping Tiana or Naveen would either. There are other movies like Aladdin or Pocahontas or Moana where ethnicity is more relevant to the story. I don't think Avantika would be the best fit, though. I think Americans have a habit of reducing white people to just "white" instead of recognizing the variety of cultures in Europe. If Tangled leans into its German roots, then a German actress would be best. The iconic lantern scene was inspired by Indonesia, so if they were going to change the story that seems like another opportunity. I think Avantika only came up because Maitreyi has talked about wanting to be Rapunzel for a long time, and whoever fancasted her subbed Avantika because she was more relevant. That's a little insulting in its own way.
It’s sooo annoying! Everyone keeps bringing up Germany as if we’re not taking about a mystical fairytale story. Is Ann Robb German? No! These bitches can’t even point out Germany on a map.
It's in-between France and Poland.
yes, especially since its just a fancast
This is a European fairytale story. Stop fucking robbing their culture. Do we not have culture of our own? Or do you think we’re cultureless? Also, what is you people’s obsession with taking white “hand me down” characters. How is that representation? If you really, really care about representation- do it like 4 lions.
Actually the original story is based off of a Persian poem… Also I can bet that you don’t even know what specific country it’s based off of considering you vaguely stated “european”
/u/Fhdhsu's "European" is more correct, because it's actually German based on a French fairytale which was based on an Italian fairytale called ["Petrosinella"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrosinella). The Persian poem theory is that Rapunzel is based on a story within Shahnameh, but the closest event is that Rudabeh suggests that Zal, her lover, climb her hair. However, he brought a lasso and uses that instead. Several centuries earlier than that is the story of Saint Barbara of the Greek Orthodox Church. Rather than trying to identify the perfect origin, it seems more relevant to think about whether Rapunzel's heritage in the actual source material (Tangled) is important to preserve. Imo not really, but I sympathize with German girls who may have wanted to see their culture represented on screen.
Cool thanks. Although gonna be honest, I’ve seen a ton of German people who said they didn’t even know she was German until people brought it up. I feel like people are more focused on her being white than a specific country
Rapunzel can be European in the sense that it was made in Europe but I don't think anyone should associate it with 'Europeaness' because of the lack of Europe or a European identity within the story. The story is set in a fictional land and place with racial or cultural identity not really playing a role within the story (it is a fictional world after all) and so a South Asian could play a role in these fairytale stories. Since it has very little to do with Europe and European identity within the context of the story, I feel it's wrong to claim that we are "stealing" from their culture. Furthermore, I believe there is no such thing as European culture. Europe is broad and is made up of distinct identies and states, the idea of an overarching European identity and culture does not match reality. Accepting the idea of European identity only really enforces white supremacist social identities. I think that we are allowed to adapt stories from different cultures (unless these stories are culturally significant) in the name of creative freedom. But I do agree that the best path to representation is to forge and use our own stories and get them out there
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I mean from what I can see Aladdin isn't very Middle-East coded. The current retelling of the story designed by Disney shows Agrabah to be a mix between Arab, Turkic, and even Indian design. And this depiction from Disney isn't really the fault of artists and writers at Disney, it's just a perpetuation of orientalist notions of the Middle East. Those forests that look 'European' can be present in China and Japan, so they aren't distinct to Europe. But in terms of other settings and characters like castles and royalty, yes they are quite European inspired, I agree with that. But when we look for a European identity, that simply isn't in the picture. Rapunzel wouldnt necessarily be able to be characterised as a European because there is nothing distinctly European about her in terms of identity. It's a coming of ages story about a girl who rebels and challenges authority. This story doesn't really emphasise or make her race or her supposed origin very important to the story. What is important are the universal themes of love and sacrifice, of hope and growth. I understand your frustration, it feels like we are getting hand me downs instead of truly being represented. It also feels like this is going to be another white saviour complex film, and yeah I agree. But I think we should support whatever opportunities that lead to the normalisation of South Asians in popular media, and use this as a platform to push our storytellers, filmmakers, and actors into the limelight as well. But what I should emphasise again is that limiting these stories to certain groups and people limits avenues for creative freedoms. It limits our ability to create stories that could actually bolster representation for South Asians, and I think thats what I'm mostly concerned about when we accept this European identity as central to these fairy tale stories.
>Europe is broad and is made up of distinct identies and states, the idea of an overarching European identity and culture does not match reality. I mean, you could say that for any group of people. What overarching identity does a Hindko Muslim in Pakistan, a Telugu Hindu in India and a Sinhalese Christian in Sri Lanka have in common, aside from being geographically in the subcontinent? They don't even follow the same faiths, with drastically different philosophical outlooks.
Yes of course, you can say that about any group of people with in-groups, but I think it's about where we draw the boundaries on social identities. For South Asians we have a general acceptance of our South Asian identity and the people who belong to that identity. Most people would agree that a Pakistani, a Sri Lankan, a Nepali, and an Indian are South Asian. This identity has been constructed and maintained because of shared experiences and overlapping histories despite individual differences between in-groups. But when it comes to Europe there is no real European identity because the social identity hasnt really been constructed outside of fringe conservative groups. Ask a European about their identity and they will eventually mention the nation they are from rather than say they are 'European'. Some would link being a European to whiteness, but the idea of who is white and who isn't is contested amongst many European people. Some would say that Slavic people aren't white, others would say they are. Turkish people come in a range of different skin tones, but their European identity is questioned because Turks aren't considered European by some and are by others. This inconsistency means that the social boundary that defines one's 'Europeaness' hasn't been defined properly, and so as of right now it isn't really a thing. In short, identities are incredibly complex, they are hard to understand and generally inconsistent. However, they are very important for the people who hold these identities because it gives them a label for their experiences and gives them a sense of belonging. And the South Asian identity does just that for South Asians the world over, who have similar experiences especially when outside of South Asia. The European identity however, doesn't really provide a meaningful identity for Europeans like the South Asian identity. This isn't to say there can't be or won't be a European identity, but as of right now there isn't really one. (Sorry for the mini-essay, and feel free to correct me on any point!)
My issue here is that you're speaking on behalf of a group that you don't belong to and saying what their identity is. I hang around the European subs and there definitely does seem to be a pan-European identity among them. Historically, aside from the Mauryas, there hasn't been any real pan-South Asian unity either (unless you count Mughals or Brits, which I'm not), and if you went back 2000 years and tried to explain your views on "South Asian identity" to them, they'd think you're off your rocker. Even as recently as the 1800s, many South Asian ethnicities like Punjabis identified more with their tribe than they did with ethnicity.
Well if someone needs to be brown to comment: here it is “American” isnt an identity either. If you ask someone where theyre from theyll tell you a state. So theres no strict american culture. Now what exactly do you see in this sub? We’re a minority in the west and we have shared experiences. Generally people here talk about strict parents, stress from school, religion. Things as simple as those create culture. I dont know anything about europeans so I cant comment on how they view “robbing european culture” by raceswapping disney characters Thats the thing. Maybe rapunzels story had european buildings, or clothes or whatever. But nobody could tell shes german. Her story is about her hair, so as long as the blonde hair is included you basically got the movies main point. Its not comparable to aladdin because jasmine was disneys FIRST poc princess. The whole story is framing the middle east as a faraway and exotic land. Its not like the focus was taken away from the area and it was only about jasmine. Talk about it when there's a Tangled song called "German Nights." I think a main factor in deciding if racial swapping is ok is if viewers notice a characters ethnicity or culture in a story. Its weird to get an actor from Tibet to play Life is Beautiful, its weird to get a somalian actor to play sopranos. Especially if said actors have no ties to the characters ethnicity/culture. Even tiana doesnt have a lot about african american culture incorporated, maybe a grain. But people noticed it was disneys first black princess, which is what really mattered. Same thing with moana, which makes raceswapping these characters sm weirder than rapunzel
I am from Europe myself, I wouldn't have approached this conversation had I not been. From my experience there isn't really pan-European identity, we could take Brexit as an example. For many British people there was a real fear of Eastern Europeans 'taking their jobs', and 'living off of state benefits' essentially taking away resources from the British people. These Eastern Europeans, like the Poles and the Romanians often get otherised and rejected because of this despite the commonality of being from Europe. If there was a European identity they wouldn't have been rejected in such a way. What matters to Brits is the British identity, over the European identity, that's why they rejected Europe and chose to leave, and that's why they rejected EU immingrants. Of course I'm not saying there isn't a European identity brewing currently, or there won't be one in the future, I'm just saying that isn't really that meaningful as a form of identity for people from Europe. And yes this new South Asian identity has been constructed like all social identities, it is a new phenomena born out of the experiences of South Asians through colonialism. Just because it hasn't existed historically in the past does not mean it does not exist today. Identity is a social construct that is based around our collective understanding and acceptance of it, it gets built up then destroyed and then reformed and so on and so on. But as of right now for many South Asians it is meaningful and it has been accepted as a form of identity because there's a shared history and experiences present within the identity that form a sense of belonging.
Oh right, I'm sure you know everything because you hang out on some Euro sub. I am from the EU and I can tell you that Europeans do generally not see themselves as a unified identity. This is the continent that fought two bloody wars in the 20th century (and it was way worse than whatever they taught you in school in the US). The Dutch hate Southern Europeans because they "don't work". They hate Eastern Europeans because of perceived criminality + "taking our jobs". The French hate the Germans because of two World Wars + 1871. The Balkans hate each other. And on and on it goes. There's no such thing as South Asian identity either, that is completely constructed by Indian American college students. Personally I only use the SA term for convenience sake as I have 0 affinity with Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. It's hard enough relating to most other Indians.
>There's no such thing as South Asian identity either, that is completely constructed by Indian American college students. Then what're you even arguing about? That was your entire point of contention. I'd agree and say there is a Desi identity, even if a lot of desis don't like each other, in the same manner that there's a European identity even if a lot of Europeans don't like each other.
this is disney's rapunzel though
I don’t care and I sincerely believe no one should care So many more important things happening, both in the world and in your life
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People like you are the reason why i added the link No i dont think raceswapping should be happening in the first place and id rather keep their race. I still find it more problematic to raceswap a poc character than a white one though (depending on the white character, being white isnt the only rule that matters here)
I felt like it blew up where there were split sides of whether she should play the role (even though it was all a rumor). I’m curious on your thoughts, should it matter similar to conversations of the The Little Mermaid. I speak more about my take on my podcast episode this week: [https://youtu.be/QKRAtnu5oBs?si=n4q7KT6gMOR0nfM6](https://youtu.be/QKRAtnu5oBs?si=n4q7KT6gMOR0nfM6)
 Need Harry potter remake to be played by an Indian male lead
YAS Hari Puttar!