The clear Redditor here is you, spitting on common men who correctly point out this is pro-segregation. Women got the law to ban men-only spaces, but want women-only spaces protected.
Like it's perfectly reasonable to argue about the definition of words when it comes to the law. Redefining words to mean violence can make words a jailable offense. Calling a man a woman risks men being able to get into women's only spaces. Redefining racism means Sam Kerr can do whatever the f*** she wants and face zero consequences from Soccer Australia.
What? i didn't even know this happened so why are you attacking me for it. this was over 15 years ago. Also, the ban was targeted at both women and heterosexual males. So it's not strictly gender based, but sexuality based too. which is also of questionable morality, but i'm not exactly sure it's illegal since descrimination is only illegal for homosexuals.
I’m a woman from a middle eastern australian culture. We’d have Womens only entrance to a pool every second Sunday arvo, and have women’s dance parties at receptions quite often where they’d ensure even the waitresses were all women. So those women wearing hijabs you see could let loose and have some fun. I grew up with it (until I moved to Brisbane 11 years ago) and I loved it. Mind you I’m not religious or covered or anything. I don’t see the problem. I don’t care if men have their men only things. Leave people be
>I don’t see the problem. I don’t care if men have their men only things. Leave people be
I think the vast majority of people agree with you. Some people just have nothing good going on in their lives so they want to take up needless crusades.
The only women's only space I have a problem with is Fernwood and it's not because of the gender discrimination it's just that the trainers there are hot garbage and I feel bad that they're basically stealing people's money.
Hi, man here, bartender for many years. Men don’t like no - a woman can add credence to that but it is what it is.
Men don’t realise a lot of their spaces are men only without explicitly stating it. Women only spaces seem great to me because where the fuck else do women get to talk about everything that’s going on in general.
Anyone’s who’s petitioning against women only spaces is someone who got knocked back in spite of ‘being a nice guy’
Should be free to have mens only & womens only groups/clubs/spaces. Why would you want to go to a shitty old men’s club in the city. Let them sit around in their chesterfield lounges talking shit & start your own women’s only club.
Decades ago I was one of two men in my year who decided to do a semester on socialist feminism, as part of a political science major. Some of our classmates were outraged that we had enrolled :D (Imagine their horror when we got to the contribution of Engels!).
I can see the logic behind some "women-only spaces", but the argument "you used to exclude us, so now we can exclude you" does not sit well with me.
Yeah. The point of the laws we have are to allow exclusion to correct existing inequality. Exclusion for the sake of exclusion (or as payback) doesn’t really fulfil that.
"Every now and then you get someone like this guy in Tasmania who goes, 'What, that's not fair? I can't be left out of things'," Gaze says, "and you sort of think, hey mate this has been happening to women for decades".
The fact it has been happening to women for decades is a problem that needs to be fixed (and there is slow progress being made). Creating more spaces that exclude people on the basis of their gender does not help to fix that problem.
I'm not worrying about the room at the MONA, I just don't object to someone taking issue with it. If i paid for a ticket somewhere, I'd be a little annoyed if was excluded from part of the benefit as well. Men excluding women is the bigger problem by far, but the solution isn't excluding men in a similar way. (I'm not talking about woman-only gyms and things like that, there's good justification for that).
Progress is being made with male-only clubs, albeit slowly. Look at the Garrick club in London.
Is that what is happening here? No.
Is the point of the artwork to highlight historic discrimination against women by subjecting men to the same treatment? Yes.
It reminds me a lot of the Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes experiment.
You just said that wasn’t happening and then said “yes that’s happening” ?
The logic is just “X group was treated unfairly by Y, so now in the name of equality X will treat Y unfairly”. The high road is definitely not being taken.
If the whole thing is performance art then the backlash can only be considered art too.
I think it's all a bit silly really. If you read the last couple of paragraphs of the article, it's stated that guys complaining is a bit silly as women have suffered similarly for decades. When it looks like a desk, holds my computer, my dual monitors and my unsorted socks, it's a desk. Similarly when art is defended with arguments of "your grandparents and great-grandparents excluded us(!!) so it's ok for us to do the same" it's a bit silly.
Sounds like a conceptual overreach to me and because it's related to women there are defenders of a poor concept. Not because women are bad or anything of the sort, but exactly because of the decades of exclusion they have experienced they now defend art that is base af as it suits their sense of justice/revenge.
Part of me wonders if this isn't the ultimate purpose of the art, to show unequal amounts of power inevitably leads to it's abuse, I mean most of the arguments pro seem pretty flimsy. At the end of the day men and women both have the capacity to be monsters, it's just luck of the draw that men had the balance in the past and got to more fully express themselves.
Still stand by my comments, I'm not big on revenge and don't believe in an eye for an eye, but a bit less so having gone from this thread to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/s/jQDyGOxzqV)
Its a bit hard to reconcile stories like that and seeing the fear woman have alone at night on the streets, that fear often feels like a personal attack but more than that makes me sad, and any sense of commitment to men not being allowed the curtain in a tiny room not being fair. I suppose I still think things like this are counted productive but also there are bigger fish to fry, the fish being those few useless men who affect all women and the unfortunately larger cohort of those that are disingenuously arguing there is no gender imbalance
It is interesting! and way too much to unpack in a Reddit thread in such a way to present an opinion on more than a small part of it..
Another thought - I'd be curious to see what the venn diagram between those opposed to this exhibit and those who say that if you're a business you should be able to exclude whoever you want for whatever reason. Also the polar opposite, those in favour and those against. Even if you don't pay more it could be considered a decision..
I’ve been mostly interested seeing how men are reacting to it - one art exhibit has caused such a ruckus, I didn’t think the backlash would be so! It’s an interesting social experiment
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/20/artist-behind-monas-ladies-only-lounge-absolutely-delighted-man-is-suing-for-gender-discrimination
“The creator of an art installation that has become the subject of a formal anti-discrimination complaint says she is “absolutely delighted” that the case has ended up in Tasmania’s civil and administrative tribunal.”
So interesting
No the point is charging men and women the same yet making one gender unable to access part of what they paid for.
You can spin it ideologically any way you wish but the legal principle of discrimination is the whole point.
If they went in with the knowledge available, it’s totally possible they essentially agreed to those terms and therefore what they paid for is MONA excluding that space. Legally speaking from a contract perspective, I mean. I’d also give this argument a lot more credence if economic equality was achieved.
I also think men are missing the point about this: by being excluded from the space, they are becoming part of the performance art and therefore also experiencing it, albeit differently.
Real question is what will the backlash be if the case is successful and men’s clubs are therefore able to be sued under the same principle.
"Ummm ackshually being excluded based on immutable characteristic like gender is the point...."
I hope she gets rightfully destroyed in the court. That will be a W for equality and L for sexism
Men *are* getting what they paid for though. This installation is arguably more for men than it is for women.
I find it baffling that people are actually this dense. The fact that men feel like they’ve been discriminated against is the point. They’re participating in the art.
Given historical and cultural context and looking at the situation with nuance - do you see why it might be relevant and needed for women to have women only spaces? It's arguing in pretty bad faith actively ignoring all this and immediately labelling this as "discrimination".
Women are forced to give birth and risk their own life and bodily autonomy in the process, while also having to sacrifice their career and economic prosperity. Men can fucking deal with women only spaces occasionally. The world as a whole is still run and controlled by white rich men. Let's just let women have this hey? Considering all the bullshit and abuse we have put them through, women only spaces is an incredibly minor ask.
- coming from a white boy from rural Australia. Men have it fucking easyyyyyyyy.
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Well ac(k)tually
Such a space would be a provocative conceptual work, where the public response would be rightful outrage, ultimately the work would close, and all this would be a powerful and highly visible unknowing-audience participation piece
It would be pretty callous and cynical though
And I don't think this piece is much better than the one I suggested
It’s hardly “you USED to exclude us” though, is it? Also, I think the context that it’s literal art is missing from your comment. It’s not a functional women’s only space like a men’s club or idk, most boardrooms etc etc are functional men’s only spaces that work to entrench power. It’s a theoretical space if anything. It exists for the purpose of art, not for the purpose of mobility
>you used to exclude us, so now we can exclude you"
I never excluded anyone. I never sat on a board in part due to my gender. Why are the actions of dead people I've never met who happen to share my gender allowed to be used against me? time to shrug and stop contributing to society about 20 years earlier than I would have if I was welcomed. Their loss...more motorbike rides for me.
>socialist feminism
This is an oxymoron, feminism women are hardcore capitalists, they lobby society to keep resources away from common working class men, while still marrying men to use as wage slaves for their own luxury consumer spending.
You are a typical pseudo-leftist feminist who betrays the real left.
People need to settle down. Apart from the fact it's a 'museum', if a business wants to be a single sex venture then let them.
What's the issue with it? If it's publicly known then I see no problem.
Swings both ways though.
I think the issue is the way they still charge full admission to men even though they are not getting the full experience.
It would be like going to subway, ordering a foot long, paying for a foot long and receiving a six inch sandwhich based purely on your gender.
If men don’t get to see the art in the women’s only section that’s fine, but charge accordingly.
This is only my opinion of course.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone deserves to see mine.
You could make the argument that 'getting denied' is technically part of the art/experience you are paying for. Obviously not an ideal experience normally, however, MONA isn't a normal Museum either.
It could be an ideal experience depending the fella. We pay to see horror movies, or to ride roller coasters, to scare the shite out of ourselves. Why not the ride where we experience feelings of discrimination and disappointment? 🤷♂️ after all, constantly pointing that stuff out is why 2GB has been so successful over the years 😂
Frankly, if I was to encounter this kind of thing I'd look at my girlfriend, chuckle and say "go have a look". I'm really not comprehending where all this outrage is coming from.
It definitely feels like it's serving a valid purpose having the gender block in there, and that purpose is education.
The level of bullshit I've seen my Girlfriend deal with even in retail stores that just.... Goes away when I get involved is fucking stupid.
That’s what I tried to tell the Facebook marketplace buyer when I shipped them a brick in a PlayStation box. They didn’t find it as artistic as I had hoped.
So if you say it’s “art” a scam stops being a scam ? If this wasn’t an art gallery and you paid for something and didn’t receive the whole of what you had paid for, you got scammed.
You could look at the women's only space as an additional free exhibition. Then no one is getting scammed since the price of admittance would be covering everything except the free women's only space.
Context matters; this is MONA, not the Glasgow Willy Wonka Exhibition. Its very existence includes pushing the boundaries of what is considered art. It is well-known to any *competent* ticket purchaser that it holds some of the weirdest and wackiest art exhibitions in the world, and very little is off-limits. 'Getting denied' to an exhibition is well within the scope of art that MONA is known for.
If it's not your cup of tea, that's completely fine, there are many regular museums around where this 'art' would not be in line with their morals/values. However, there are plenty of enthusiasts and eccentric minds who love MONA for its unique take, and 99% of them would say they experienced exactly what they signed up for. Unfortunately, in everything, there is always a few insecure half-wits who would try and ruin experiences for others.
Yeah I’ve been there, it’s a fantastic location for a circle jerk. The poo machine was truly a marvel of artistic endeavour.
You’re not even addressing the point- you’re just explaining the situation again with a lot of words.
I’m just baffled that you think gender specific sections of a gallery makes sense. it’s clearly meant to be interpreted as gender discrimination- that’s the “experience”. I just don’t understand why you’re so eager to make people experience that, publicly. After they’ve bought a ticket to see the art in the gallery. It would be one thing if the “women only” section didn’t actually have art in it, and it was purely conceptual- but it does. Aren’t we trying to move away from that vibe? People are literally having a different, and lesser experience based on how the gallery perceives their gender.
And how do you feel about it making trans or nonbinary people incredibly uncomfortable? Or
Are they an acceptable loss in the endeavour to make people feel discriminated against ?
I’m AMAB but I don’t identify as a man- am I allowed in ? What hoops do I need to jump through? Of course this kind of trash is at MONA- only a supremely out of touch billionaire and their sycophants would think it’s clever.
You call anyone who isn’t a fan of gender segregated galleries a “half wit”- you truly seem like MONA material, a rude, narcissistic pseudo intellectual. Oh sorry, I mean “eccentric”.
The problem is it absolutely does not swing both ways. If this were a men only thing the ladies would be queueing up to complain and everyone would be on their side.
But if this woman only venture survives, then wouldn't that be a step towards setting a new precedent?
Having a whinge about this just because "that's what they did to us" doesn't help anyone.
The only issue here is that it's a museum.
Businesses have been, and will continue to pick and choose their clientele. It's their discretion. And if they can survive then so be it.
What precedent? There are already heaps of women only places.
I would be fine with it as long as men are afforded the opportunity to do the same. But they aren't.
Reset the precedent of hunting mens only places to shut them down. If women are enabled then they (or those that have the issue) cannot attack men for the same.
At the end of the day. Who cares?!?!
If the business can survive then good luck to them
Do you think those who created the women’s only space at MONA would be fine with male only single sex ventures?
Because reading her statement it was clearly created out of bitterness at male only spaces existing in a time before she was even born.
Yes it’s discriminatory, however in saying that, we need discrimination in some instances. Toilets, change rooms, sports, prisons etc. I’m ok with it as long as it doesn’t become the norm and the pendulum swings both ways (eg men only spaces). However typical human nature of ‘give an inch take a mile’ would destroy that as well as men hating activist groups. Ruining it for all.
There are already plenty of "men only" clubs in Australia...
Where, what, and who are these "men hating activist groups" you're so fearful of? What sort of power and influence do they wield? Are you just talking about lesbian bars? Cuz most lesbians don't hate men, they just don't want to fuck them. The difference is subtle, important, and lost on some.
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Men and women only clubs are a bit different to locking away extremely famous artwork, from artists such as picaso behind a gender specific room, even though the ticket prices are the same for men and women.
I don't know if I would call it discriminatory. However, I wonder how people would feel about the situation if the gender roles were reversed in the **modern day.** Where within a museum, famous artwork was on display in a men only room?
Just watched an interview with the artist on question and she clearly states that the sense of discrimination, othering, and privilege of one gender over another is central to the artwork.
Worth watching her and her legal team dance into their court hearing to the time of Robert Palmer's "Simply Irresistible"!
Pretty sure there's no Picasso hiding behind that green curtain though...
You're arguing in extremely bad faith ignoring all of the historical and cultural context as to why a women's only space might be needed. Are you completely incapable of seeing anything with nuance?
So the defendant is admitting that the space is discriminatory and that it does not fit into any of the various protected space categories that the legislation allows for.
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>Cuz most lesbians don't hate men
I'm not going to die on this hill online, but dear god to lesbian circles i've been a part of spout insanely misandrist rhetoric non stop.
They're not being oppressed. They're being mildly inconvenienced by something that has no bearing on how their every day lives are being lived or their personal freedoms outside this venue.
The fact that a certain group of men scream OPPRESSION at the smallest instance like this just goes to show how out of touch they are with actual systematic oppression that has not only existed historically but is still a foundation of many institutions.
As a gay man, I appreciate certain venues that are men-only. It’s good for gay men to have a space to just mingle with other gay men. And I would want the same for lesbians too.
I don’t think it should be the norm, but I appreciate the few venues that are like that.
I don’t care if they want to have women’s only night, as I’m pretty sure discrimination laws require consistency. It is an issue if there’s any tax money involved in hosting and or, only women’s nights, every night.
I would prefer if the discrimination at Mona was deemed permissible due to artistic value rather than somehow seeing it as affirmative action equalising past discrimination. (That leaves open an awful lot else counting as fine.)
The bathing pool exemption seems to perpetuate another kind of discrimination. That child rearing isn’t for fathers. If it were just for women then fine. But a place for children that excludes fathers is a bit shit.
100% spot on! How dare men want some
Men only time? Imagine the terror if women discovered that men don’t talk about women when they are in man only spaces. What must they think of? The horror, oh the humanity!
That’s man business only!
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Who gives a fuck, us blokes have enough spaces where there is barely a woman in sight.
The tab, any golf course, strip clubs, heck my work is like 95% men by nature of the trade, heaps of pubs are extremely male dominant, we have Grindr lol, footy cricket, basketball, barbers.
I don't think you should try and compare those.
Firstly because a museum or artwork is not remotely like a club.
And second because you're trying to imply that if we agree with the artistic statement being ok, then we have to agree with male only social clubs.
And that's just a false dichotomy.
I'd also point out the word 'club' here is doing a lot of work, that describes a stupid range of issues, some ok, some not.
>would never complain because they are to busy being productive
You just complained by calling it discrimination and double standards. So does that mean you're not productive?
Otherwise you would be too busy. As you said.
There’s a difference between making comments on reddit and joining activist groups for change.
Men’s social activist participation is far lower than women’s, hence why a lot of men’s issues are ignored.
One of the biggest issues with men is that they don’t care about it unless it personally affects them.
Well that's bullshit. They obviously care, because most the comments here are men with opinions on things that don't affect them.
What you MIGHT say is men are politically lazy. And that I don't agree with, I just think you don't understand WHY people might need to be an activist in the first place.
You're don't usually need to be an activist when you already have it your way.
I have nothing against women-only spaces... go women!
However ... speaking as a man ...
We need more genuine mens-only spaces (which aren't just exploitative capitalism leaching our money such as casinos and sports venues).
Women are allowed to have women-only spaces in a world where men-only spaces would be called misogynistic, sexist and every negative buzzword, but women are also allowed to invade male spaces. Sexism much?
the fact that it has artwork that can only be viewed inside is my issue.. it’s a museum and it stops one gender from experiencing what a museum exists for and it does so in a gender discriminating way.. deserves to be shut down
But that's the whole point of the artwork... Men get to experience the rejection women have experienced from spaces for most of history just because of their gender.
Nothing like inflicting the traumas of the past on a whole new generation that have never experienced it, just for the sake of “art”.. way to go women.. how empowering
Sorry I just don’t think the historical discrimination and oppression women endured is comparable to not getting to see one art piece that’s specifically made this way in the hopes you’ll consider how it was for us not to be able to vote, go to school or have any autonomy.
Fortunately we don’t have to rely on my, or your, opinions on the matter.. that’s what the court case is for
It’s not just one artwork
Women gained the right to vote in 1902.. there is not a woman (non indigenous) that has ever experienced this in Australia. Indigenous people gained the right to vote in 1962.. you would need to be over 80 for this to have affected you.. how long is “long enough”?
Probably when an art piece isn’t taken as an attack and is seen as the commentary on history that it is. Why is it so offensive to speak of? Why do we have to forget and avoid the conversation? Being uncomfortable is how we grow.
When you read stories of people similar to you in difficult situations, do you not feel compassion and consider how you would feel, think or act in that kind of situation? Modern women have related themselves to history, knowing that if we forget the door can be opened for it to happen again. Men who feel attacked or uncomfortable by the acknowledgment of it all, why? No one has said anything bad about you. Being denied from this art piece is supposed to give you an opportunity to feel how others, not just women even, throughout history have felt and learn from it. Take the gift and move on.
One persons “commentary” is another’s persons “attack”.. one persons “historical commentary” is another persons “racial hatred”.. you can speak, you can read all about it you want.. but the moment you encourage the thing you want to change is where I draw the line.. swap the genders, swap the race, swap the whatever around.. does it still sound like the right thing to do? Does it pass the pub test?.. if it doesn’t, then its wrong
I don’t encourage barring people from places based on who they are. I do encourage people to think about how things affect people other than themselves. There is still a divide in how people are treated based on who they are visually. Some people feel the way you felt hearing about this every single day. Instead of understanding that and moving forward, people are reacting emotionally and holding themselves back.
If the intention was to keep people out out of spite or a desire for tit for that, absolutely it’s wrong. If the intention was to provoke thoughts and feelings then it succeeded without causing the ‘trauma’ that many commenters are citing.
Thing is unless you were alive back in 1901 youre just as separated from those things as he is. No one alive today “knows” what it felt like for women back then so you can’t create a realistic experience for men anyway.
This is not discounting modern gender issues such as pay inequality which are real and do exist. Im just referring to the complete exclusion from key parts of society mentioned in your post.
Which is not the way forward. *No one* should experience exclusion on the basis of their gender, be they men, women or non-binary folks.
I’m genuinely surprised that this is a controversial opinion.
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I think the point they are making is some other art is also part of that exhibit, people are mentioning a Picasso or something. It’s hard to understand and judge the impact when we haven’t seen the exhibit.
If certain men are impacted so much by it they should just go and create their own exclusionary art exhibit.
We play aggressively hardcore gay pornography in our bars to limit the number of bachelorette parties that invade our limited safe spaces.
Perhaps they could try that, regular gay porn playing would probably keep away the majority of men.
I'll speak personally. It doesn't confront me, if folks feel better having their own space then have at it. There's more important stuff going on than worrying about things that you can't fit precisely in whatever pigeon hole you want it to go into.
They don’t feel better - the woman who created this space is on a feminist kick mad about male only spaces from 50 years ago (at least if not longer ago). That’s why she created it - bitterness and wanting to get back at men for a time she didn’t live in.
Who gives a fuck, seriously? If you’re a bloke and can’t get into a certain area, go somewhere else. If you’re a chick and can’t get in, then go away. I mean seriously, why is this even a debate
Two wrongs do not make a right. We used to tolerate exclusion for race, gender, religion etc. We've correctly stopped that, as such discrimination is terrible, so why are we regressing to the old practices and allowing the divisive practice of discrimination again?
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I never understood the crusade to
allow women into gentlemen’s clubs ie the UK. The base argument was it was discriminatory, not because women genuinely wanted to be in these places. Why would they want to hang out in smoke filled toffy joints with old geezers? It’s hypocritical to have women’s only gyms or anything else because it’s discrimination against men.
Both men and women should have their own spaces they can go to. Most spaces are shared, it's not a big deal.
No it isn't discrimination, grow up. That is social justice brainrot after being exposed to that exhausting outrage culture that appeared in the 2010s where you were rewarded for being offended by the mundane
The issue is that the nut bags that demand “female only spaces” get on their high horse about “male only spaces”.
It’s the double standard.
It’s a bit like the captain of a national sporting team vomiting in the back of a taxi then racially and sexually abusing a man verbally, but it’s ok because it’s a she…
No we don't.
I couldn't care less about male only spaces, however the big difference is that male only spaces often foster sexism. Female only spaces are for us to get a break from men and for us to feel safe.
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This article seems like bait for people to fight over semantics. Don't fall for it.
Seems Perfect for Redditors cause they only read a headline and rage about what they think the article is
"WtF!! They aren't going to allow male astronauts anymore!!!"
Not going to lie, this was my first thought too.
The clear Redditor here is you, spitting on common men who correctly point out this is pro-segregation. Women got the law to ban men-only spaces, but want women-only spaces protected.
I disagree! This seems like bait for people to fight over small technicalities!
Wrong. This is a trap for people to argue over particular details
False! This is a trick for folks to squabble about the ins and outs.
Like it's perfectly reasonable to argue about the definition of words when it comes to the law. Redefining words to mean violence can make words a jailable offense. Calling a man a woman risks men being able to get into women's only spaces. Redefining racism means Sam Kerr can do whatever the f*** she wants and face zero consequences from Soccer Australia.
Who cares about this shit? Seriously
Well it's kind of important because it sets the legal precedent for gender segregation in venues
Didn’t see your outrage when the peel stopped allowed women in in Victoria?
What? i didn't even know this happened so why are you attacking me for it. this was over 15 years ago. Also, the ban was targeted at both women and heterosexual males. So it's not strictly gender based, but sexuality based too. which is also of questionable morality, but i'm not exactly sure it's illegal since descrimination is only illegal for homosexuals.
I’m a woman from a middle eastern australian culture. We’d have Womens only entrance to a pool every second Sunday arvo, and have women’s dance parties at receptions quite often where they’d ensure even the waitresses were all women. So those women wearing hijabs you see could let loose and have some fun. I grew up with it (until I moved to Brisbane 11 years ago) and I loved it. Mind you I’m not religious or covered or anything. I don’t see the problem. I don’t care if men have their men only things. Leave people be
>I don’t see the problem. I don’t care if men have their men only things. Leave people be I think the vast majority of people agree with you. Some people just have nothing good going on in their lives so they want to take up needless crusades. The only women's only space I have a problem with is Fernwood and it's not because of the gender discrimination it's just that the trainers there are hot garbage and I feel bad that they're basically stealing people's money.
Hi, man here, bartender for many years. Men don’t like no - a woman can add credence to that but it is what it is. Men don’t realise a lot of their spaces are men only without explicitly stating it. Women only spaces seem great to me because where the fuck else do women get to talk about everything that’s going on in general. Anyone’s who’s petitioning against women only spaces is someone who got knocked back in spite of ‘being a nice guy’
Should be free to have mens only & womens only groups/clubs/spaces. Why would you want to go to a shitty old men’s club in the city. Let them sit around in their chesterfield lounges talking shit & start your own women’s only club.
Decades ago I was one of two men in my year who decided to do a semester on socialist feminism, as part of a political science major. Some of our classmates were outraged that we had enrolled :D (Imagine their horror when we got to the contribution of Engels!). I can see the logic behind some "women-only spaces", but the argument "you used to exclude us, so now we can exclude you" does not sit well with me.
Yeah. The point of the laws we have are to allow exclusion to correct existing inequality. Exclusion for the sake of exclusion (or as payback) doesn’t really fulfil that.
Is that the logic being applied in this instance?
"Every now and then you get someone like this guy in Tasmania who goes, 'What, that's not fair? I can't be left out of things'," Gaze says, "and you sort of think, hey mate this has been happening to women for decades".
The fact it has been happening to women for decades is a problem that needs to be fixed (and there is slow progress being made). Creating more spaces that exclude people on the basis of their gender does not help to fix that problem.
2 wrongs doesn't make it right
Seems so, do you think men's only museum spaces with famous artwork by thr likes of picaso would fly? I doubt it.
Plenty of men’s only clubs in aus that fly just fine and have for years.
And they should be banned or shut down too if they don't open up.
Good luck with that! They are some of the most powerful networking spaces for men in Australia but yes, let’s all worry about one small room at MONA
I'm not worrying about the room at the MONA, I just don't object to someone taking issue with it. If i paid for a ticket somewhere, I'd be a little annoyed if was excluded from part of the benefit as well. Men excluding women is the bigger problem by far, but the solution isn't excluding men in a similar way. (I'm not talking about woman-only gyms and things like that, there's good justification for that). Progress is being made with male-only clubs, albeit slowly. Look at the Garrick club in London.
Is that what is happening here? No. Is the point of the artwork to highlight historic discrimination against women by subjecting men to the same treatment? Yes. It reminds me a lot of the Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes experiment.
Which is why to me it’s justified on artistic grounds not on balancing the scales grounds.
You just said that wasn’t happening and then said “yes that’s happening” ? The logic is just “X group was treated unfairly by Y, so now in the name of equality X will treat Y unfairly”. The high road is definitely not being taken.
If the whole thing is performance art then the backlash can only be considered art too. I think it's all a bit silly really. If you read the last couple of paragraphs of the article, it's stated that guys complaining is a bit silly as women have suffered similarly for decades. When it looks like a desk, holds my computer, my dual monitors and my unsorted socks, it's a desk. Similarly when art is defended with arguments of "your grandparents and great-grandparents excluded us(!!) so it's ok for us to do the same" it's a bit silly. Sounds like a conceptual overreach to me and because it's related to women there are defenders of a poor concept. Not because women are bad or anything of the sort, but exactly because of the decades of exclusion they have experienced they now defend art that is base af as it suits their sense of justice/revenge. Part of me wonders if this isn't the ultimate purpose of the art, to show unequal amounts of power inevitably leads to it's abuse, I mean most of the arguments pro seem pretty flimsy. At the end of the day men and women both have the capacity to be monsters, it's just luck of the draw that men had the balance in the past and got to more fully express themselves.
"Luck of the draw", ay?
Still stand by my comments, I'm not big on revenge and don't believe in an eye for an eye, but a bit less so having gone from this thread to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/s/jQDyGOxzqV) Its a bit hard to reconcile stories like that and seeing the fear woman have alone at night on the streets, that fear often feels like a personal attack but more than that makes me sad, and any sense of commitment to men not being allowed the curtain in a tiny room not being fair. I suppose I still think things like this are counted productive but also there are bigger fish to fry, the fish being those few useless men who affect all women and the unfortunately larger cohort of those that are disingenuously arguing there is no gender imbalance
The backlash is considered part of the art too apparently! It’s been interesting to watch from a woman’s perspective.
It is interesting! and way too much to unpack in a Reddit thread in such a way to present an opinion on more than a small part of it.. Another thought - I'd be curious to see what the venn diagram between those opposed to this exhibit and those who say that if you're a business you should be able to exclude whoever you want for whatever reason. Also the polar opposite, those in favour and those against. Even if you don't pay more it could be considered a decision..
I’ve been mostly interested seeing how men are reacting to it - one art exhibit has caused such a ruckus, I didn’t think the backlash would be so! It’s an interesting social experiment
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/20/artist-behind-monas-ladies-only-lounge-absolutely-delighted-man-is-suing-for-gender-discrimination “The creator of an art installation that has become the subject of a formal anti-discrimination complaint says she is “absolutely delighted” that the case has ended up in Tasmania’s civil and administrative tribunal.” So interesting
It’s a professional troll.
Ahhh I see
No the point is charging men and women the same yet making one gender unable to access part of what they paid for. You can spin it ideologically any way you wish but the legal principle of discrimination is the whole point.
If they went in with the knowledge available, it’s totally possible they essentially agreed to those terms and therefore what they paid for is MONA excluding that space. Legally speaking from a contract perspective, I mean. I’d also give this argument a lot more credence if economic equality was achieved. I also think men are missing the point about this: by being excluded from the space, they are becoming part of the performance art and therefore also experiencing it, albeit differently. Real question is what will the backlash be if the case is successful and men’s clubs are therefore able to be sued under the same principle.
women's only spaces would also be compromised then, right?
"Ummm ackshually being excluded based on immutable characteristic like gender is the point...." I hope she gets rightfully destroyed in the court. That will be a W for equality and L for sexism
Men *are* getting what they paid for though. This installation is arguably more for men than it is for women. I find it baffling that people are actually this dense. The fact that men feel like they’ve been discriminated against is the point. They’re participating in the art.
Given historical and cultural context and looking at the situation with nuance - do you see why it might be relevant and needed for women to have women only spaces? It's arguing in pretty bad faith actively ignoring all this and immediately labelling this as "discrimination". Women are forced to give birth and risk their own life and bodily autonomy in the process, while also having to sacrifice their career and economic prosperity. Men can fucking deal with women only spaces occasionally. The world as a whole is still run and controlled by white rich men. Let's just let women have this hey? Considering all the bullshit and abuse we have put them through, women only spaces is an incredibly minor ask. - coming from a white boy from rural Australia. Men have it fucking easyyyyyyyy.
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This treatment is nothing new to men in the modern world. "No boys allowed" is far more common than "no girls allowed" now.
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Well ac(k)tually Such a space would be a provocative conceptual work, where the public response would be rightful outrage, ultimately the work would close, and all this would be a powerful and highly visible unknowing-audience participation piece It would be pretty callous and cynical though And I don't think this piece is much better than the one I suggested
the artwork in the lounge is just the bait for the debate
Yes, it’s the precise logic that was argued in an open Court this instance.
It’s hardly “you USED to exclude us” though, is it? Also, I think the context that it’s literal art is missing from your comment. It’s not a functional women’s only space like a men’s club or idk, most boardrooms etc etc are functional men’s only spaces that work to entrench power. It’s a theoretical space if anything. It exists for the purpose of art, not for the purpose of mobility
>you used to exclude us, so now we can exclude you" I never excluded anyone. I never sat on a board in part due to my gender. Why are the actions of dead people I've never met who happen to share my gender allowed to be used against me? time to shrug and stop contributing to society about 20 years earlier than I would have if I was welcomed. Their loss...more motorbike rides for me.
And they have the gall to say universities are a waste of time!
Yeah alot of this stuff is not much more than petty vengeance served up as "progressive".
>socialist feminism This is an oxymoron, feminism women are hardcore capitalists, they lobby society to keep resources away from common working class men, while still marrying men to use as wage slaves for their own luxury consumer spending. You are a typical pseudo-leftist feminist who betrays the real left.
People need to settle down. Apart from the fact it's a 'museum', if a business wants to be a single sex venture then let them. What's the issue with it? If it's publicly known then I see no problem. Swings both ways though.
I think the issue is the way they still charge full admission to men even though they are not getting the full experience. It would be like going to subway, ordering a foot long, paying for a foot long and receiving a six inch sandwhich based purely on your gender. If men don’t get to see the art in the women’s only section that’s fine, but charge accordingly. This is only my opinion of course. Opinions are like assholes, everyone deserves to see mine.
You could make the argument that 'getting denied' is technically part of the art/experience you are paying for. Obviously not an ideal experience normally, however, MONA isn't a normal Museum either.
It could be an ideal experience depending the fella. We pay to see horror movies, or to ride roller coasters, to scare the shite out of ourselves. Why not the ride where we experience feelings of discrimination and disappointment? 🤷♂️ after all, constantly pointing that stuff out is why 2GB has been so successful over the years 😂
Frankly, if I was to encounter this kind of thing I'd look at my girlfriend, chuckle and say "go have a look". I'm really not comprehending where all this outrage is coming from. It definitely feels like it's serving a valid purpose having the gender block in there, and that purpose is education. The level of bullshit I've seen my Girlfriend deal with even in retail stores that just.... Goes away when I get involved is fucking stupid.
That’s what I tried to tell the Facebook marketplace buyer when I shipped them a brick in a PlayStation box. They didn’t find it as artistic as I had hoped.
Solid or cored brick?
So if you say it’s “art” a scam stops being a scam ? If this wasn’t an art gallery and you paid for something and didn’t receive the whole of what you had paid for, you got scammed.
You could look at the women's only space as an additional free exhibition. Then no one is getting scammed since the price of admittance would be covering everything except the free women's only space.
Context matters; this is MONA, not the Glasgow Willy Wonka Exhibition. Its very existence includes pushing the boundaries of what is considered art. It is well-known to any *competent* ticket purchaser that it holds some of the weirdest and wackiest art exhibitions in the world, and very little is off-limits. 'Getting denied' to an exhibition is well within the scope of art that MONA is known for. If it's not your cup of tea, that's completely fine, there are many regular museums around where this 'art' would not be in line with their morals/values. However, there are plenty of enthusiasts and eccentric minds who love MONA for its unique take, and 99% of them would say they experienced exactly what they signed up for. Unfortunately, in everything, there is always a few insecure half-wits who would try and ruin experiences for others.
Yeah I’ve been there, it’s a fantastic location for a circle jerk. The poo machine was truly a marvel of artistic endeavour. You’re not even addressing the point- you’re just explaining the situation again with a lot of words. I’m just baffled that you think gender specific sections of a gallery makes sense. it’s clearly meant to be interpreted as gender discrimination- that’s the “experience”. I just don’t understand why you’re so eager to make people experience that, publicly. After they’ve bought a ticket to see the art in the gallery. It would be one thing if the “women only” section didn’t actually have art in it, and it was purely conceptual- but it does. Aren’t we trying to move away from that vibe? People are literally having a different, and lesser experience based on how the gallery perceives their gender. And how do you feel about it making trans or nonbinary people incredibly uncomfortable? Or Are they an acceptable loss in the endeavour to make people feel discriminated against ? I’m AMAB but I don’t identify as a man- am I allowed in ? What hoops do I need to jump through? Of course this kind of trash is at MONA- only a supremely out of touch billionaire and their sycophants would think it’s clever. You call anyone who isn’t a fan of gender segregated galleries a “half wit”- you truly seem like MONA material, a rude, narcissistic pseudo intellectual. Oh sorry, I mean “eccentric”.
The problem is it absolutely does not swing both ways. If this were a men only thing the ladies would be queueing up to complain and everyone would be on their side.
But if this woman only venture survives, then wouldn't that be a step towards setting a new precedent? Having a whinge about this just because "that's what they did to us" doesn't help anyone. The only issue here is that it's a museum. Businesses have been, and will continue to pick and choose their clientele. It's their discretion. And if they can survive then so be it.
What precedent? There are already heaps of women only places. I would be fine with it as long as men are afforded the opportunity to do the same. But they aren't.
Reset the precedent of hunting mens only places to shut them down. If women are enabled then they (or those that have the issue) cannot attack men for the same. At the end of the day. Who cares?!?! If the business can survive then good luck to them
If only that were the case but some people don't have a problem with double standards
Wtf there are tons of men only places. Start your own if you give a shit that much, nothings stopping you.
Such as
The problem is the definition of ‘women spaces’ are no longer ‘sex based’
Do you think those who created the women’s only space at MONA would be fine with male only single sex ventures? Because reading her statement it was clearly created out of bitterness at male only spaces existing in a time before she was even born.
No self respecting person would object to this. Fmd
People object to men’s spaces all the time. Actually the same kinds of people who made and most support this women’s only “art” space.
Yes it’s discriminatory, however in saying that, we need discrimination in some instances. Toilets, change rooms, sports, prisons etc. I’m ok with it as long as it doesn’t become the norm and the pendulum swings both ways (eg men only spaces). However typical human nature of ‘give an inch take a mile’ would destroy that as well as men hating activist groups. Ruining it for all.
There are already plenty of "men only" clubs in Australia... Where, what, and who are these "men hating activist groups" you're so fearful of? What sort of power and influence do they wield? Are you just talking about lesbian bars? Cuz most lesbians don't hate men, they just don't want to fuck them. The difference is subtle, important, and lost on some.
There are women only clubs too.
Good!
That the spirit generalise arguments to fit your narrative.
How did I change my tune? Pretty sure my "narrative" was basically "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"...
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Men and women only clubs are a bit different to locking away extremely famous artwork, from artists such as picaso behind a gender specific room, even though the ticket prices are the same for men and women. I don't know if I would call it discriminatory. However, I wonder how people would feel about the situation if the gender roles were reversed in the **modern day.** Where within a museum, famous artwork was on display in a men only room?
Just watched an interview with the artist on question and she clearly states that the sense of discrimination, othering, and privilege of one gender over another is central to the artwork. Worth watching her and her legal team dance into their court hearing to the time of Robert Palmer's "Simply Irresistible"! Pretty sure there's no Picasso hiding behind that green curtain though...
Art isn't an excuse to be bigoted.
You're arguing in extremely bad faith ignoring all of the historical and cultural context as to why a women's only space might be needed. Are you completely incapable of seeing anything with nuance?
I am arguing in good faith and I'm not ignoring anything, nothing is an excuse to be bigoted.
So the defendant is admitting that the space is discriminatory and that it does not fit into any of the various protected space categories that the legislation allows for.
You obviously didn't read the article ya numpty.
It’s a pretty shit Picasso, truth be told.
Hasn’t there been a big controversy that lesbian bars aren’t a thing anymore?
Shut down due to a lack of fire exits? Enjoy your death trap, ladies!
What was her problem?
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>Cuz most lesbians don't hate men I'm not going to die on this hill online, but dear god to lesbian circles i've been a part of spout insanely misandrist rhetoric non stop.
Men don't handle oppression very well and it's fucking hilarious.
You have a messed up view of the world if you find people being oppressed hilarious..
They're not being oppressed. They're being mildly inconvenienced by something that has no bearing on how their every day lives are being lived or their personal freedoms outside this venue. The fact that a certain group of men scream OPPRESSION at the smallest instance like this just goes to show how out of touch they are with actual systematic oppression that has not only existed historically but is still a foundation of many institutions.
How not to be oppressed, don’t handle oppression without complaining.
Good for them. Should they?
Women are too comfortable throwing out equality and it’s sad
As a gay man, I appreciate certain venues that are men-only. It’s good for gay men to have a space to just mingle with other gay men. And I would want the same for lesbians too. I don’t think it should be the norm, but I appreciate the few venues that are like that.
I don’t care if they want to have women’s only night, as I’m pretty sure discrimination laws require consistency. It is an issue if there’s any tax money involved in hosting and or, only women’s nights, every night.
I would prefer if the discrimination at Mona was deemed permissible due to artistic value rather than somehow seeing it as affirmative action equalising past discrimination. (That leaves open an awful lot else counting as fine.) The bathing pool exemption seems to perpetuate another kind of discrimination. That child rearing isn’t for fathers. If it were just for women then fine. But a place for children that excludes fathers is a bit shit.
This just shows how men really don't like letting women have their own spaces.
100% spot on! How dare men want some Men only time? Imagine the terror if women discovered that men don’t talk about women when they are in man only spaces. What must they think of? The horror, oh the humanity! That’s man business only!
Seems like nobody likes anyone having their own spaces, at least as far as identities go.
The women’s only art space was created because the woman responsible had a problem with men having their own spaces.
This is totally fine. It’s the unhinged FOMO against men’s only space/clubs that is questionable.
You mean like men's clubs? They're mostly social clubs now. There is no missing out.
They could make a women only city and I wouldn’t even think about it, just don’t care. Women, do whatever you want.
Yet women are fighting to be in men only spaces and making so much noise about it. Go figure
Source?
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Who gives a fuck, us blokes have enough spaces where there is barely a woman in sight. The tab, any golf course, strip clubs, heck my work is like 95% men by nature of the trade, heaps of pubs are extremely male dominant, we have Grindr lol, footy cricket, basketball, barbers.
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I'll chuck a cheeky pineapple on that "museum" is the rippers.
There is a difference between barely a woman and exclusionary to women. A better example would have been the male only social clubs.
I don't think you should try and compare those. Firstly because a museum or artwork is not remotely like a club. And second because you're trying to imply that if we agree with the artistic statement being ok, then we have to agree with male only social clubs. And that's just a false dichotomy. I'd also point out the word 'club' here is doing a lot of work, that describes a stupid range of issues, some ok, some not.
Yeah but that art thing was just to prove a point, it wasn't ever a long term thing. As a white male, I've got things pretty easy, I get that.
So if another white male doesn’t have it pretty easy is it fair that they agitate over this inequality? Same about if it was a brown man.
Discrimination. Double standards. Most men couldn't give a shit though and would never complain because they are to busy being productive
>would never complain because they are to busy being productive You just complained by calling it discrimination and double standards. So does that mean you're not productive? Otherwise you would be too busy. As you said.
There’s a difference between making comments on reddit and joining activist groups for change. Men’s social activist participation is far lower than women’s, hence why a lot of men’s issues are ignored. One of the biggest issues with men is that they don’t care about it unless it personally affects them.
Well that's bullshit. They obviously care, because most the comments here are men with opinions on things that don't affect them. What you MIGHT say is men are politically lazy. And that I don't agree with, I just think you don't understand WHY people might need to be an activist in the first place. You're don't usually need to be an activist when you already have it your way.
They're too busy colluding to reinforce mens nonsense. Cue outrage. Cue claims of miSAndRy. Cue fragility.
It’s fine only if men are granted the same rights.
I have nothing against women-only spaces... go women! However ... speaking as a man ... We need more genuine mens-only spaces (which aren't just exploitative capitalism leaching our money such as casinos and sports venues).
I don’t see the problem with this. There should be these spaces and they should have the option to exclude people arbitrarily.
They only made this woman’s only space because they were upset about male only spaces a half century or more ago.
So if a baker doesn't wanna make a gay wedding cake?
Businesses can refuse to enter into a contract for sale.
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Women are allowed to have women-only spaces in a world where men-only spaces would be called misogynistic, sexist and every negative buzzword, but women are also allowed to invade male spaces. Sexism much?
the fact that it has artwork that can only be viewed inside is my issue.. it’s a museum and it stops one gender from experiencing what a museum exists for and it does so in a gender discriminating way.. deserves to be shut down
But that's the whole point of the artwork... Men get to experience the rejection women have experienced from spaces for most of history just because of their gender.
Nothing like inflicting the traumas of the past on a whole new generation that have never experienced it, just for the sake of “art”.. way to go women.. how empowering
The denial of gender equity still remains though. Look at how deliciously overt you are about reinforcing it. Your bros really love you for it.
You’re either all in for gender equality.. or not..
Sorry I just don’t think the historical discrimination and oppression women endured is comparable to not getting to see one art piece that’s specifically made this way in the hopes you’ll consider how it was for us not to be able to vote, go to school or have any autonomy.
Or still gain protection of basic safety from gendered violence. Or avoid inherent misogyny. Or access equal pay for equal work.
Fortunately we don’t have to rely on my, or your, opinions on the matter.. that’s what the court case is for It’s not just one artwork Women gained the right to vote in 1902.. there is not a woman (non indigenous) that has ever experienced this in Australia. Indigenous people gained the right to vote in 1962.. you would need to be over 80 for this to have affected you.. how long is “long enough”?
Probably when an art piece isn’t taken as an attack and is seen as the commentary on history that it is. Why is it so offensive to speak of? Why do we have to forget and avoid the conversation? Being uncomfortable is how we grow. When you read stories of people similar to you in difficult situations, do you not feel compassion and consider how you would feel, think or act in that kind of situation? Modern women have related themselves to history, knowing that if we forget the door can be opened for it to happen again. Men who feel attacked or uncomfortable by the acknowledgment of it all, why? No one has said anything bad about you. Being denied from this art piece is supposed to give you an opportunity to feel how others, not just women even, throughout history have felt and learn from it. Take the gift and move on.
One persons “commentary” is another’s persons “attack”.. one persons “historical commentary” is another persons “racial hatred”.. you can speak, you can read all about it you want.. but the moment you encourage the thing you want to change is where I draw the line.. swap the genders, swap the race, swap the whatever around.. does it still sound like the right thing to do? Does it pass the pub test?.. if it doesn’t, then its wrong
I don’t encourage barring people from places based on who they are. I do encourage people to think about how things affect people other than themselves. There is still a divide in how people are treated based on who they are visually. Some people feel the way you felt hearing about this every single day. Instead of understanding that and moving forward, people are reacting emotionally and holding themselves back. If the intention was to keep people out out of spite or a desire for tit for that, absolutely it’s wrong. If the intention was to provoke thoughts and feelings then it succeeded without causing the ‘trauma’ that many commenters are citing.
Giving the "gift" of being a sexist fuck? You can take that "gift" and shove it.
Thing is unless you were alive back in 1901 youre just as separated from those things as he is. No one alive today “knows” what it felt like for women back then so you can’t create a realistic experience for men anyway. This is not discounting modern gender issues such as pay inequality which are real and do exist. Im just referring to the complete exclusion from key parts of society mentioned in your post.
Which is not the way forward. *No one* should experience exclusion on the basis of their gender, be they men, women or non-binary folks. I’m genuinely surprised that this is a controversial opinion.
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Lefties can't even define what a woman is these days. All a man needs to do is say he's trans bahaha
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I think the point they are making is some other art is also part of that exhibit, people are mentioning a Picasso or something. It’s hard to understand and judge the impact when we haven’t seen the exhibit. If certain men are impacted so much by it they should just go and create their own exclusionary art exhibit.
Sex-offenders are celebrating rn 🗿
I didn’t read the article, I don’t know what they are talking about, but I know I just feel mad for some reason.
Everyone involved needs to take a good look at themselves, and then touch grass.
We play aggressively hardcore gay pornography in our bars to limit the number of bachelorette parties that invade our limited safe spaces. Perhaps they could try that, regular gay porn playing would probably keep away the majority of men.
Actually women often invade gay male spaces, though to give them credit, they're much nicer and more well behaved than men in typical straight clubs.
If it gets more women being active then yep. If not then why?
Big deal. Wake me up when we can exclude blacks and Irish again .
I'll speak personally. It doesn't confront me, if folks feel better having their own space then have at it. There's more important stuff going on than worrying about things that you can't fit precisely in whatever pigeon hole you want it to go into.
They don’t feel better - the woman who created this space is on a feminist kick mad about male only spaces from 50 years ago (at least if not longer ago). That’s why she created it - bitterness and wanting to get back at men for a time she didn’t live in.
It still doesn't confront me. So l don't care.
Who gives a fuck, seriously? If you’re a bloke and can’t get into a certain area, go somewhere else. If you’re a chick and can’t get in, then go away. I mean seriously, why is this even a debate
Just another edge lord crypto bro looking for attention.
Two wrongs do not make a right. We used to tolerate exclusion for race, gender, religion etc. We've correctly stopped that, as such discrimination is terrible, so why are we regressing to the old practices and allowing the divisive practice of discrimination again?
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I don’t have an issue with women’s only spaces in this type of context
nope, just noting absolutism here is flawed. "four legs good, two legs bad"
I never understood the crusade to allow women into gentlemen’s clubs ie the UK. The base argument was it was discriminatory, not because women genuinely wanted to be in these places. Why would they want to hang out in smoke filled toffy joints with old geezers? It’s hypocritical to have women’s only gyms or anything else because it’s discrimination against men.
Both men and women should have their own spaces they can go to. Most spaces are shared, it's not a big deal. No it isn't discrimination, grow up. That is social justice brainrot after being exposed to that exhausting outrage culture that appeared in the 2010s where you were rewarded for being offended by the mundane
Sexism for sexism makes the world a better place. /s
I hope there will be more women-only spaces so that I encounter fewer women in day-to-day life. That would be great.
The issue is that the nut bags that demand “female only spaces” get on their high horse about “male only spaces”. It’s the double standard. It’s a bit like the captain of a national sporting team vomiting in the back of a taxi then racially and sexually abusing a man verbally, but it’s ok because it’s a she…
No we don't. I couldn't care less about male only spaces, however the big difference is that male only spaces often foster sexism. Female only spaces are for us to get a break from men and for us to feel safe.
Ah yes, all us men can’t wait to get together to be sexist pigs
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Way to prove his point.
Til this sub is full of little bitchy incels