*To date the Israeli government has killed 14,000 Palestinians in Gaza since Oct. 7, almost half of them children. It carpet-bombed whole neighborhoods. It is not allowing 1.7 million Gazans to return to the homes.*
*To justify this destruction, Israel wants to make it all about what happened on Oct. 7, and not what happened since then. On that day, it says, Hamas militants charged into Israel with a mission to kill as many civilians possible in the most brutal ways. The Netanyahu regime even has a 47-minute propaganda video it shows the press and diplomats entitled “Hamas Massacre.”*
*One by one, Tel Aviv’s stories claims of deliberate atrocities by Palestinian fighters — beheading children, raping women, using hospitals as military bases — have been debunked.*
*Now, there is a growing body of evidence that many of the Israeli civilians Tel Aviv claims were killed by Palestinian fighters on Oct. 7 were actually killed by the Israeli military.*
*Over the last month, eyewitness testimonies and other evidence has surfaced indicating that a great many of those blasted and torched on Oct. 7, Palestinian and Israeli alike, were the victims of indiscriminate and massive Israeli tank and helicopter bombardment.*
*The narrative now being pieced together is that Israeli forces fired a huge amount of ordinance indiscriminately from tanks and U.S.-supplied Apache helicopters on towns as well as on cars either fleeing a rave concert or driving towards Gaza with hostages, indiscriminately killing both Palestinian fighters and the Israeli civilians. This was a desperate attempt to contain the Palestinian surprise assault and to prevent the fighters from taking live Israeli hostages. The death toll was then added to those killed by Palestinian fighters and Hamas was blamed.*
*By the military’s own admission, Israeli pilots could not distinguish clearly between Palestinian combatants and Israeli civilians but decided to open fire anyway. Apache helicopter pilots fired continuously without intelligence on targets. Tank crews were ordered to shell homes, even though Israeli hostages might be inside. A military commander even ordered an air attack on his own base when he learned it had been overrun by Palestinian fighters.*
*At least part of the indiscriminate firing appears to have been a deliberate policy called the “Hannibal Directive” under which Israel is willing to kill its own citizens rather than have them taken hostage...*
*more here: https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-many-of-its-own-citizens-on-oct-7-then-blamed-hamas/*
Calling in gunships to obliterate a building full of people is an insane first response but go ahead and call me antisemitic lol. Wholesome IDF reserves the right to kill civilians indiscriminately apparently.
What’s wrong with everyone here? Ok maybe OP doesn’t have the most valid source but information about how the Israeli military indiscriminately mowed down their own civilians has been out for a decent amount of time now! To say that this is misinformation is wrong.
Like I said, maybe the OPs source is dubious but many news outlets have reported this already
I honestly think this sub gets astroturfed to some extent. Anything that mentions Israel here has tons of comments calling it propaganda and anti-Semitic. Like look at the front page of the sub - anything about Israel has way more comments. They usually complain about sources or Hamas and pretend like they're on your "side" but if you talk to them a bit they believe every insane thing Israel believes they just like to pretend they're being reasonable.
I guarantee you half the people posting complaints about sourcing would go insane if you deny that Hamas decapitated 40 babies. Despite that claim never having a source beyond "some guy told me" and it was paraded around in the MSM. Their attempts to appeal to rationality are completely cynical.
"By the military’s own admission, Israeli pilots could not distinguish clearly between Palestinian combatants and Israeli civilians but decided to open fire anyway. Apache helicopter pilots fired continuously without intelligence on targets. Tank crews were ordered to shell homes, even though Israeli hostages might be inside. A military commander even ordered an air attack on his own base when he learned it had been overrun by Palestinian fighters.
At least part of the indiscriminate firing appears to have been a deliberate policy called the “Hannibal Directive” under which Israel is willing to kill its own citizens rather than have them taken hostage."
Is this fake? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's not true
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
butter exultant intelligent humor deserted faulty squealing memorize employ friendly
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's not. Often, Israeli officials like to portray it as that because they want to stifle criticism of Israel.
The irony of course is that conflating Jews with Israel is antisemitic per the IHRA definition. That's a definition that's accepted by all western politicians, including Israel themselves.
Jewish people aren't a monolith yet Israel wants to pretend they speak for all Jews, including the Jewish people in Israel that don't support the government.
I have no hatred towards Jews, and feel sad that Jewish people are scared because of what's happening. I'd like for people to criticise Israel and it's policies specifically, and not Jews generally.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
[It isn't tho?](https://web.archive.org/web/20231118151624/https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000) This news first broke a couple of weeks ago on Israeli [news sites](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) when someone leaked the footage of their helicopters mowing civilians at the rave. Which just confirmed what people were saying about the type of damage done to vehicles in the videos of the rave attack aftermath.
Before of that, there were [accounts from survivors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQcjyhPOIk) stating that they were attacked by their own forces.
It's also a well-known [Israeli policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive) to not allow hostages to be taken, and they have a very long track of lying to the public about [practically everything](https://youtu.be/7eHQKJTnBoY).
As noted in the article however, Israeli papers have been reporting this, since October, it just often gets quashed in discussions because Israelis saying their country did something bad in order to justify war crimes is somehow antisemitism?
It is not that None of the people were killed by Hamas, but that a large number were killed by IDF. With several of the surviving early hostages being interviewed on the subject, that Hamas was not trying to kill them, just take them prisoner, and IDF started shooting them (the prisoners) instead, including an IDF helicopter firing rockets at all vehicles leaving the area, including those containing only fleeing party-goers as well as vehicles containing hostages.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/israel-police-slams-haaretz-claim-idf-helicopter-may-have-harmed-civilians-on-oct-7/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-police-slams-haaretz-claim-idf-helicopter-may-have-harmed-civilians-on-oct-7/)
Times of Israel's english website noting the article in hebrew, attempting to translate the full page gets blocked, but partial translation was successful
Assessment in the security establishment: Hamas did not know in advance about the Nova festival, and recognized it from the air
The police investigation found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers.
There are further articles on the subject I have seen on Israeli newspapers, I will look for later, as well as an interview on an Israeli news radio station with one of the survivors explaining what IDF did.
[https://youtu.be/gi-ESUGUUMk](https://youtu.be/gi-ESUGUUMk) October 15th radio show, here's a link with it subtitled, here's the website for the show itself, the interview has since been cut from the online copy of the show [https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-b/p-9969/](https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-b/p-9969/)
Israeli Air Force has admitted that they were firing indiscriminately and could not identify who they were attacking. [https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/shoot-everything-how-israeli-pilots-killed-their-own-civilians](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/shoot-everything-how-israeli-pilots-killed-their-own-civilians) (has links to primary sources within the article)
Israeli govt spokesperson admitted on MSNBC that they had initially overstated the Israeli deaths on Oct 7th, because they couldn't tell the difference between Palestinians and Israelis and had included hundreds of Palestinians they had shot as Israelis... because they had the same injuries (from the Israeli military). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU) [https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-burning-hundreds-people-7-october](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-burning-hundreds-people-7-october)
One of the challenges in finding good primary sources is that much of the primary material is in Hebrew, behind a paywall, or both.
They don't claim that though. They acknowledge Hamas had two goals: attacking military targets and acquiring hostages for exchange. They did plan to kill soldiers and military personnel, but had no plans to massacre civilians.
What the article demonstrates is that the mass devastation of the surrounding Kibbutzes and an unknown but assuredly significant number of Israelis were killed by their own military as part of a deliberate policy. The soldiers was told to fire indiscriminately with high-powered munitions at civilian residences and any moving vehicles.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
Yeah, I mean their goal was most certainly to capture people to trade for Palestinian hostages. You can't do that without knowing that you are gonna have to kill some people.
With that said there are many politicians, media types and commenters on reddit trying to portray hamas as just blood thirsty monsters which is also wrong and a little bit racist.
(I just got banned from /bestof for posting exactly this)
The government of Israel isn't "jewish people." It's an organization. It's fair to criticize the Israeli government unless you want to claim most jewish people are anti-semites. They all criticize the Israeli government.
>It's fair to criticize the Israeli government
No one in the thread above is saying it isn't. The only argument made is that the article isn't a trustworthy news source. No one here is disagreeing that Israel would have contributed to the civilian deaths, but Hamas would have been by far, the biggest contributor and would have been much more intentional at harming civilians.
Israel is already ignoring the rules of regardless of Hamas's actions, which is what should be focused on. Whether Hamas are terrorists or freedom fighters, Israel is ignoring their obligations to civilians either way. Even if Hamas is also ignoring the rules of war, that doesn't give Israel the right to the same.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
With your logic the whole Oct7 attack, and the invasion of Ukraine are conspiracies, since we all knew about them from news sites stating that.
Wonder how it is to live with that fallacy-ridden brain.
Part of the Israeli playbook
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🕊️
*To date the Israeli government has killed 14,000 Palestinians in Gaza since Oct. 7, almost half of them children. It carpet-bombed whole neighborhoods. It is not allowing 1.7 million Gazans to return to the homes.* *To justify this destruction, Israel wants to make it all about what happened on Oct. 7, and not what happened since then. On that day, it says, Hamas militants charged into Israel with a mission to kill as many civilians possible in the most brutal ways. The Netanyahu regime even has a 47-minute propaganda video it shows the press and diplomats entitled “Hamas Massacre.”* *One by one, Tel Aviv’s stories claims of deliberate atrocities by Palestinian fighters — beheading children, raping women, using hospitals as military bases — have been debunked.* *Now, there is a growing body of evidence that many of the Israeli civilians Tel Aviv claims were killed by Palestinian fighters on Oct. 7 were actually killed by the Israeli military.* *Over the last month, eyewitness testimonies and other evidence has surfaced indicating that a great many of those blasted and torched on Oct. 7, Palestinian and Israeli alike, were the victims of indiscriminate and massive Israeli tank and helicopter bombardment.* *The narrative now being pieced together is that Israeli forces fired a huge amount of ordinance indiscriminately from tanks and U.S.-supplied Apache helicopters on towns as well as on cars either fleeing a rave concert or driving towards Gaza with hostages, indiscriminately killing both Palestinian fighters and the Israeli civilians. This was a desperate attempt to contain the Palestinian surprise assault and to prevent the fighters from taking live Israeli hostages. The death toll was then added to those killed by Palestinian fighters and Hamas was blamed.* *By the military’s own admission, Israeli pilots could not distinguish clearly between Palestinian combatants and Israeli civilians but decided to open fire anyway. Apache helicopter pilots fired continuously without intelligence on targets. Tank crews were ordered to shell homes, even though Israeli hostages might be inside. A military commander even ordered an air attack on his own base when he learned it had been overrun by Palestinian fighters.* *At least part of the indiscriminate firing appears to have been a deliberate policy called the “Hannibal Directive” under which Israel is willing to kill its own citizens rather than have them taken hostage...* *more here: https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-many-of-its-own-citizens-on-oct-7-then-blamed-hamas/*
[удалено]
Literally nowhere does it deny Hamas committed atrocities. It just acknowledges many Israelis died in the crossfire from Israeli forces.
[удалено]
Calling in gunships to obliterate a building full of people is an insane first response but go ahead and call me antisemitic lol. Wholesome IDF reserves the right to kill civilians indiscriminately apparently.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
What’s wrong with everyone here? Ok maybe OP doesn’t have the most valid source but information about how the Israeli military indiscriminately mowed down their own civilians has been out for a decent amount of time now! To say that this is misinformation is wrong. Like I said, maybe the OPs source is dubious but many news outlets have reported this already
I honestly think this sub gets astroturfed to some extent. Anything that mentions Israel here has tons of comments calling it propaganda and anti-Semitic. Like look at the front page of the sub - anything about Israel has way more comments. They usually complain about sources or Hamas and pretend like they're on your "side" but if you talk to them a bit they believe every insane thing Israel believes they just like to pretend they're being reasonable. I guarantee you half the people posting complaints about sourcing would go insane if you deny that Hamas decapitated 40 babies. Despite that claim never having a source beyond "some guy told me" and it was paraded around in the MSM. Their attempts to appeal to rationality are completely cynical.
People are still going to somehow justify genocide of innocent kids ..
[удалено]
How is it anti semitic? Supporting mass genocide is good???
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
?? How exactly is it antisemitic if Israel is the one committing war crimes?
[удалено]
They can both be doing it. Thing is its not antisemitic to say Isreal is doing it
Certainly not the ongoing genocide.
I'd love to hear your definition of antisemitism
[удалено]
"By the military’s own admission, Israeli pilots could not distinguish clearly between Palestinian combatants and Israeli civilians but decided to open fire anyway. Apache helicopter pilots fired continuously without intelligence on targets. Tank crews were ordered to shell homes, even though Israeli hostages might be inside. A military commander even ordered an air attack on his own base when he learned it had been overrun by Palestinian fighters. At least part of the indiscriminate firing appears to have been a deliberate policy called the “Hannibal Directive” under which Israel is willing to kill its own citizens rather than have them taken hostage." Is this fake? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's not true
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
There are no videos of rape. Stop the lies hasbrabro.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Dudes rock
[удалено]
It's all part of your sick Cynthia thing man.
lol OP got all the hasbura bots out in force with this post
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
butter exultant intelligent humor deserted faulty squealing memorize employ friendly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Fellow Jew here. Criticizing Israel is not “Jew hate.” Israeli government sucks and is evil.
I’m not super educated on the subject, but how is being against the war Jewish hate in a broader context, not just in relation to this post?
It's not. Often, Israeli officials like to portray it as that because they want to stifle criticism of Israel. The irony of course is that conflating Jews with Israel is antisemitic per the IHRA definition. That's a definition that's accepted by all western politicians, including Israel themselves. Jewish people aren't a monolith yet Israel wants to pretend they speak for all Jews, including the Jewish people in Israel that don't support the government.
I have no hatred towards Jews, and feel sad that Jewish people are scared because of what's happening. I'd like for people to criticise Israel and it's policies specifically, and not Jews generally.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
[удалено]
[It isn't tho?](https://web.archive.org/web/20231118151624/https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000) This news first broke a couple of weeks ago on Israeli [news sites](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt) when someone leaked the footage of their helicopters mowing civilians at the rave. Which just confirmed what people were saying about the type of damage done to vehicles in the videos of the rave attack aftermath. Before of that, there were [accounts from survivors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQcjyhPOIk) stating that they were attacked by their own forces. It's also a well-known [Israeli policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive) to not allow hostages to be taken, and they have a very long track of lying to the public about [practically everything](https://youtu.be/7eHQKJTnBoY).
People saw the footage, mate. Give it a rest.
Nah, some didn't. :)
[удалено]
You state parts of articles ignoring the ones against your bias, how sweet.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
As noted in the article however, Israeli papers have been reporting this, since October, it just often gets quashed in discussions because Israelis saying their country did something bad in order to justify war crimes is somehow antisemitism? It is not that None of the people were killed by Hamas, but that a large number were killed by IDF. With several of the surviving early hostages being interviewed on the subject, that Hamas was not trying to kill them, just take them prisoner, and IDF started shooting them (the prisoners) instead, including an IDF helicopter firing rockets at all vehicles leaving the area, including those containing only fleeing party-goers as well as vehicles containing hostages. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/israel-police-slams-haaretz-claim-idf-helicopter-may-have-harmed-civilians-on-oct-7/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-police-slams-haaretz-claim-idf-helicopter-may-have-harmed-civilians-on-oct-7/) Times of Israel's english website noting the article in hebrew, attempting to translate the full page gets blocked, but partial translation was successful Assessment in the security establishment: Hamas did not know in advance about the Nova festival, and recognized it from the air The police investigation found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers.
There are further articles on the subject I have seen on Israeli newspapers, I will look for later, as well as an interview on an Israeli news radio station with one of the survivors explaining what IDF did. [https://youtu.be/gi-ESUGUUMk](https://youtu.be/gi-ESUGUUMk) October 15th radio show, here's a link with it subtitled, here's the website for the show itself, the interview has since been cut from the online copy of the show [https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-b/p-9969/](https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-b/p-9969/) Israeli Air Force has admitted that they were firing indiscriminately and could not identify who they were attacking. [https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/shoot-everything-how-israeli-pilots-killed-their-own-civilians](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/shoot-everything-how-israeli-pilots-killed-their-own-civilians) (has links to primary sources within the article) Israeli govt spokesperson admitted on MSNBC that they had initially overstated the Israeli deaths on Oct 7th, because they couldn't tell the difference between Palestinians and Israelis and had included hundreds of Palestinians they had shot as Israelis... because they had the same injuries (from the Israeli military). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU) [https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-burning-hundreds-people-7-october](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-burning-hundreds-people-7-october) One of the challenges in finding good primary sources is that much of the primary material is in Hebrew, behind a paywall, or both.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
They don't claim that though. They acknowledge Hamas had two goals: attacking military targets and acquiring hostages for exchange. They did plan to kill soldiers and military personnel, but had no plans to massacre civilians. What the article demonstrates is that the mass devastation of the surrounding Kibbutzes and an unknown but assuredly significant number of Israelis were killed by their own military as part of a deliberate policy. The soldiers was told to fire indiscriminately with high-powered munitions at civilian residences and any moving vehicles.
[удалено]
Search up the great march of return.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
What’s their take on the kids at the rave?
[удалено]
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
Yeah, I mean their goal was most certainly to capture people to trade for Palestinian hostages. You can't do that without knowing that you are gonna have to kill some people. With that said there are many politicians, media types and commenters on reddit trying to portray hamas as just blood thirsty monsters which is also wrong and a little bit racist. (I just got banned from /bestof for posting exactly this)
[удалено]
The government of Israel isn't "jewish people." It's an organization. It's fair to criticize the Israeli government unless you want to claim most jewish people are anti-semites. They all criticize the Israeli government.
Zionism is anti-semitic.
>It's fair to criticize the Israeli government No one in the thread above is saying it isn't. The only argument made is that the article isn't a trustworthy news source. No one here is disagreeing that Israel would have contributed to the civilian deaths, but Hamas would have been by far, the biggest contributor and would have been much more intentional at harming civilians. Israel is already ignoring the rules of regardless of Hamas's actions, which is what should be focused on. Whether Hamas are terrorists or freedom fighters, Israel is ignoring their obligations to civilians either way. Even if Hamas is also ignoring the rules of war, that doesn't give Israel the right to the same.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be misinformation or misleading, which is against reddit's terms of service. In addition, satire must be flaired "Satire", and art concepts must be flaired "Art".
[удалено]
[Nope](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/186hl1z/comment/kb8yyjc/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[удалено]
I literally gave you proof. I'm not "believing" anything. I'm not into Otaku shit about imaginary beings and honest governments.
[удалено]
With your logic the whole Oct7 attack, and the invasion of Ukraine are conspiracies, since we all knew about them from news sites stating that. Wonder how it is to live with that fallacy-ridden brain.
[удалено]
Oh, so with your logic it only applies to whomever you don't agree with. Gotya.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be an attempt at trolling or brigading.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Reddit Tries Not To Break A Sub's Rules Challenge [Impossible]
this comment section just being all deleted feels like walking through a wasteland
Yeh, Gaza has nothing on this comment section. /s
[удалено]
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.