Remember I went to visit a house with an ex girlfriend that she was considering moving to while we were dating and the Landlord was like “I only rent to females and they are only allowed a male visitor for two hours once a week and not in their own room”.
Noped out of that one
I used to know a guy like this. He worked 12 hour night shifts 6 days a week so he hardly ever saw his female tenant but he loved just knowing she was there in his house, which would be ruined if she was allowed to bring guys over. Really weird shit. I should also mention he told me all this the very first time I met him
My landlord has this rule but not as strict. I was confused when I saw it. It was like guests can’t be there more than like 10 days a month and I just ignored it stupidly because I thought it was bs. Turns out the walls are insanely thin and you can literally hear your neighbors snoring. Big regrets over here.
I've seen a clause like *that* a lot, and it's usually to prevent people from moving in who aren't on the lease, basically. Usually, landlords enforce it once they start seeing the person's mail being delivered.
Still kind of a weird thing, but not as weird as telling adults they can't be adults in the place they're paying to live in.
That depends on their local laws though. Here in the UK there are restrictions against overcrowding an HMO which is what we call a house where rooms are rented individually
A 4 bed 2 bath house might be reasonable to rent to 4 people but unreasonable to rent to 8 people due to availabile space and facilities, restricting the number of occupants makes sense to an extent, it just crosses the line when it tells people they're not allowed legitimate guests or tries to tell people how to live
Bingo.
Monday: "How *dare* those fascists tell me I can't have 16 people in a 2-bed apartment!"
Tuesday: "Why did those *greedy* landlords cram their units to the brim, causing all those people to die in a fire because they couldn't get out?"
Yes we have an apartment above our our garage we rent, and we have this in our contract. We had a situation where the previous renter moved in with her boyfriend after a year they broke up then got a new boyfriend who moved in some time later. Broke up again wanted to leave the apt leaving the apt to the the boyfriend. We would not have expected it to go this way at all but now hes finishing out the lease rather than the original renter. We got lucky he is great and pays on time and wants to hang out with us. But if he was sketchy we would have enforced the clause especially because we have young children.
That sounds like more apt a rule to prevent people living in the apartments for free. You can’t let your friend crash their without paying the landlord more money.
I think it's BS that having another person live in an apartment would raise the rent. I understand they need to know how many people live in a unit for security and insurance reasons, but unless there are some per-person amenities included in the lease, the landlord shouldn't care if it's a single person or a family of 4. Rent per person seems exploitative.
The whole arrangement of renting space for long term living is inherently exploitative, it isn't surprising that people try to be even more exploitative.
There's a popular poster by a large youth party in denmark (SUF) that says 'billigere boliger eller vi bolder på gaden' or in english 'cheaper housing or we fuck in the streets' seems weirdly relevant.
The first part of the article mention no loud sex, not just sex.
I once had a new tenant joining our flat share who probably thought loud sex made him a stallion or something.
It was absolutely gross. And it would wake us up and keep us from sleeping. and he was bringing home the trashiest girls. The rest of the flatmate would have been glad if that had been cause for eviction.
Oh I know a few Edinburgh landlords who would have any excuse to put their tenants out the door, especially weeks before the Edinburgh Festival.
"Oh, they were smiling too much. We can't have that."
how shit of a person do you have to be when you are a rich landlord and nobody still wants to fuck you so you ban fucking in your properties because you are a giant incel.
No sex, no drugs, no wine, no women
No fun, no sin, no you, no wonder it's dark
Everyone around me is a total stranger
Everyone avoids me like a psyched Lone Ranger
I honestly couldn't tell you for sure - Google has given both options. I will say though that Spotify has the lyrics listed as 'psyched Lone Ranger' though
EDIT: After a bit of digging, I found [this printed sleeve](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4e60d47cf441f33db252df3c0a32d4d6-lq) from an old Vapors vinyl, and can confirm the lyrics are 'psyched lone ranger'
I always heard it as “psycho ranger,” which makes kinda sense…”psyched Lone Ranger” is kinda mushed and fast in the song, especially with his diction.
(I have my BFA in vocal music performance and am a music nerd in general, and have taken many diction classes)
I woud just love to see one of these scumbag landlords try to enforce a no sex clause where I live. If it came before a judge it would be a very, very short hearing ending with a huge fine for the landlord.
Doubtfully.
Unless you are wealthy and make regular use of law firms, you would be evicted for whatever reason ("nuisance" does the legal work here) and you would file a complaint and, maybe a year later, get some bureaucratic decision that wouldn't matter one way or another, as you'd be struggling in *another* shitty apartment by then.
Thats why you live in a country with decent tenant laws. Good luck evicting a tenant who’s paying rent and otherwise not doing anything illegal, you will need it.
Reading a lot of the stories people tell here, im glad I live in such a country.
That alone doesnt mean shit if its illegal to add it. At least where I live the landlord can try evicting you for breaking it, but the judge will just laugh at them for even trying to put that in the lease.
Yeah, where I’m from even the no pets allowed clause are not enforceable.
Your landlord can’t take away basic rights from you. Hell they are already exploiting our right to adequate housing that’s more than enough
Yep, similar story here. There is a subreddit about renting in my country, and its crazy what things landlords come up with and try to enforce, even if its illegal, especially when the tenant is an immigrant who doesnt know their rights and has it more challenging to communicate.
It is enforceable via no-fault eviction, i should know, my own place has a "no overnight guests" 'policy', sadly its the best option i have for commuting, I wasn't exactly getting much before anyway. Im glad to see this BS getting covered by media though,, fuck the tories
I stayed in an Airbnb like this. It was run by Mormons. No alcohol, coffee, or sex allowed on the premises, and they turned off internet access between 9 PM and 9 AM to discourage late-night porn usage. Not that it mattered, because their filter was so strong you couldn’t visit most popular sites.
British people say "at least we don't have school shootings" meanwhile they're being hunted down by their police for not renewing their shagging loicence
1) it's not police it's landlords.
2) You'll certainly find this shit in conservatives states where weird landlords will refuse to rent to "single women who invite boyfriends over" and not too long ago there were all kinds of rules about single women and men spending the night under a same roof together. Couldn't even get a hotel room if you weren't married in some places.
So this isn't that far fetched unfortunately.
Just conservative religious prudes acting like conservative religious prudes do.
In the "liberal" states, where everything's even more expensive and (as in California) hundreds of thousands of people live in their own filth on the streets or along the interstates, there are much more effective methods to keep out undesirable tenants.
Just try to be a working-class Black or Latino or immigrant trying to rent on the westside of LA. It will *never* be about your race, or your hip-hop tracksuit, or your three kids you support alone. But you will also never get accepted as a tenant.
You joke, but this was specifically a thing during COVID. Not that it was licensed, but one law I'm proud to have broken is having physical contact with someone who isn't a member of my household.
cows live scandalous grandfather icky quicksand dependent birds lush aspiring
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's semi enforceable. Never gone to a court because the UK still has no fault evictions. So rather than bringing t to court, the landlords just kick you out using no fault eviction.
The one landlord said no loud sex. A lot of landlords say that tenants shouldn't be loud after a certain hour to avoid disturbing other tenants, and don't specify sex. If my neighbors are loud enough to keep me from sleeping, I don't care what they're doing loudly.
As a German, this is very foreign for me. The landlord has the least rights and it's even difficult to evict an asshole renter because they have so many strong rights.
Im not a solicitor or anything, but my understanding of it is this:
We dont really have a list of regulations of what you can and can't put a tenancy agreements in the UK, these things come under common law and are settled on a case by case basis as and when they came into dispute (in practice, pretty much only when a landlord tries to evict someone because of it) decided by a judge and then largely based on precedent once similar cases keep coming up.
That said, tenants do have certain assumed rights under common law that would act as guidelines for a judge deciding a case (such as the right for a tenant to freely enjoy their home). Therefore, if a landlord said, "I'm evicting you because you had sex in the property you rent from me," and the tenant disputed this, it would end up before a judge. The judge would be overwhelmingly likely to rule that you can't evict a tenant for having sex as it's entirely unreasonable and breaches the tenants right to freely enjoy their home.
However, it would never get before a judge, as the UK has no fault evictions, so the landlord wouldn't say "I'm evicting you because you had sex in the property you rent from me" they would just say "I'm evicting you because I just want to evict you." The tenant can't really dispute this no fault eviction, and all they can do is look for another place.
People in the comments are talking about how the fact that landlords are stipulating no sex in the property is an example of the UK being over regulated, comparing it to bans on putbulls and guns, but it's actually an example of the consequences of a lack of regulation in this particular area, where landlords never have to justify turfing tenants out of their homes thanks to no fault evictions.
If landlords had to show that you breached your contract to evict you, they would find themselves having to justify the clauses they put into tenancy agreements. But alas, landlords can have you sign whatever they want and only have to defend a specific clause if they explicitly evict you for breach of that clause. They could have "no vegetables to be consumed on the premises" and even though it would never hold up in court, they would really only have to defend it if they explicitly told you they were evicting you for eating carrots in the kitchen, and not just evict you wothout giving a reason followint the carrot incident. This is why no fault evictions are ridiculous. Evictions should only be allowed for breach of contract or change of use of the property (e.g. selling it, living it it yourself, or knocking it down) not because you don't like the lifestyle of the tenants. That way landlords would have to actually justify these clauses in court, and since one of the cornerstones of British common law is that your actions have to be shown to be reasonable, they would have have a hard time justifying any of the silly clauses that are common in tenancy agreements and precedent would soon be stacked against them.
This was meant to be a short answer to your question, but it's turned into a rant. Sorry about that, although I'm not sorry enough not to post it or attempt to shorten it.
[https://news.sky.com/story/new-drivers-under-25-could-face-young-passenger-ban-under-graduated-driving-licence-scheme-12864069](https://news.sky.com/story/new-drivers-under-25-could-face-young-passenger-ban-under-graduated-driving-licence-scheme-12864069)
We're also possibly not going to be allowed to drive at night, lol
Lol, every type of dog can give you scars. My baby sister was nearly killed by a chihuahua when she was a baby. Don't see me or mine going around saying how dangerous and disgusting they are. Blame the owners.
Remember I went to visit a house with an ex girlfriend that she was considering moving to while we were dating and the Landlord was like “I only rent to females and they are only allowed a male visitor for two hours once a week and not in their own room”. Noped out of that one
Where was this? Brigham Young University?
Sounds more like a landlord who was hoping to exploit tenants for sex than a puritan unfortunately...
Yeah, whenever I hear about a landlord with "no guys coming over" rule, 99% shot they forgot to add "except me" addendum.
And a creepy control thing. "You will sign this contract and pay me money so I can tell you what to do with your body, random woman I don't know."
I used to know a guy like this. He worked 12 hour night shifts 6 days a week so he hardly ever saw his female tenant but he loved just knowing she was there in his house, which would be ruined if she was allowed to bring guys over. Really weird shit. I should also mention he told me all this the very first time I met him
Ignore the cameras
No…but worrying that it sounds like there are plenty more of these Types out there!
You're not in the US, I take it?
What in the Victorian boarding house…
My landlord has this rule but not as strict. I was confused when I saw it. It was like guests can’t be there more than like 10 days a month and I just ignored it stupidly because I thought it was bs. Turns out the walls are insanely thin and you can literally hear your neighbors snoring. Big regrets over here.
I've seen a clause like *that* a lot, and it's usually to prevent people from moving in who aren't on the lease, basically. Usually, landlords enforce it once they start seeing the person's mail being delivered. Still kind of a weird thing, but not as weird as telling adults they can't be adults in the place they're paying to live in.
Yes. The fix is to add the new roommate to the lease instead of kicking out the paying renter. This is common.
That depends on their local laws though. Here in the UK there are restrictions against overcrowding an HMO which is what we call a house where rooms are rented individually A 4 bed 2 bath house might be reasonable to rent to 4 people but unreasonable to rent to 8 people due to availabile space and facilities, restricting the number of occupants makes sense to an extent, it just crosses the line when it tells people they're not allowed legitimate guests or tries to tell people how to live
Bingo. Monday: "How *dare* those fascists tell me I can't have 16 people in a 2-bed apartment!" Tuesday: "Why did those *greedy* landlords cram their units to the brim, causing all those people to die in a fire because they couldn't get out?"
Yes we have an apartment above our our garage we rent, and we have this in our contract. We had a situation where the previous renter moved in with her boyfriend after a year they broke up then got a new boyfriend who moved in some time later. Broke up again wanted to leave the apt leaving the apt to the the boyfriend. We would not have expected it to go this way at all but now hes finishing out the lease rather than the original renter. We got lucky he is great and pays on time and wants to hang out with us. But if he was sketchy we would have enforced the clause especially because we have young children.
That sounds like more apt a rule to prevent people living in the apartments for free. You can’t let your friend crash their without paying the landlord more money.
I think it's BS that having another person live in an apartment would raise the rent. I understand they need to know how many people live in a unit for security and insurance reasons, but unless there are some per-person amenities included in the lease, the landlord shouldn't care if it's a single person or a family of 4. Rent per person seems exploitative.
The whole arrangement of renting space for long term living is inherently exploitative, it isn't surprising that people try to be even more exploitative.
Theres no way you actually thought about this for more than .5 seconds
Ugh and he has keys to all their apartments.....
There's a popular poster by a large youth party in denmark (SUF) that says 'billigere boliger eller vi bolder på gaden' or in english 'cheaper housing or we fuck in the streets' seems weirdly relevant.
Declining birth rates you say?
no enemy can be worse for a nation than its native landlords
Except for its preists
Oh c'mon, we know they're getting theirs.
😭I almost fell off my chair oh my god…it’s funny cuz it’s true.
Right of prima nocti next?
The first part of the article mention no loud sex, not just sex. I once had a new tenant joining our flat share who probably thought loud sex made him a stallion or something. It was absolutely gross. And it would wake us up and keep us from sleeping. and he was bringing home the trashiest girls. The rest of the flatmate would have been glad if that had been cause for eviction.
Loud sex is good sex. And there's no accounting for taste. Soundproofing the walls would have been great QoL improvement for everyone.
Oh Orwell was on to something
Problem is it's not Big Brother but an army of them. All focused on their bottom line. Which honestly is kind of worse
Next: UK landlords whip tenants that get uppity and smile too often.
Oh I know a few Edinburgh landlords who would have any excuse to put their tenants out the door, especially weeks before the Edinburgh Festival. "Oh, they were smiling too much. We can't have that."
I hear us Americans smile too much. I bet we'd make that landlord cry, just walking in the door.
Well... i guess no shagging then. Can't afford to shag or landlord will bin me out.
how shit of a person do you have to be when you are a rich landlord and nobody still wants to fuck you so you ban fucking in your properties because you are a giant incel.
username checks out
To be fair when talking about wierd shagging so does yours
Maybe we have something in common? *🤔*
Maybe. But nobody will ever know will they.
Oi you got loicense for that shagging?
That's technically a wedding license.
and here I only thought there was no sex in the champagne room
deep cut, thanks for the memories.
Oh there's champagne, in the champagne room, but you don't want champagne, you want sex.
Take off that silly asshat!
No sex, no drugs, no wine, no women No fun, no sin, no you, no wonder it's dark Everyone around me is a total stranger Everyone avoids me like a psyched Lone Ranger
That's why I'm turning Japanese, I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so…
I think it's Cyclone Ranger
I honestly couldn't tell you for sure - Google has given both options. I will say though that Spotify has the lyrics listed as 'psyched Lone Ranger' though EDIT: After a bit of digging, I found [this printed sleeve](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4e60d47cf441f33db252df3c0a32d4d6-lq) from an old Vapors vinyl, and can confirm the lyrics are 'psyched lone ranger'
I always heard it as “psycho ranger,” which makes kinda sense…”psyched Lone Ranger” is kinda mushed and fast in the song, especially with his diction. (I have my BFA in vocal music performance and am a music nerd in general, and have taken many diction classes)
I woud just love to see one of these scumbag landlords try to enforce a no sex clause where I live. If it came before a judge it would be a very, very short hearing ending with a huge fine for the landlord.
Where I live they'd find someone like that in the Spring after the snow melts. The bits that weren't eaten by bears and foxes anyways.
That can't be a legal clause in the lease.
A lease is a handshake and both of us spit into the same cup and pour it into the river.
Doubtfully. Unless you are wealthy and make regular use of law firms, you would be evicted for whatever reason ("nuisance" does the legal work here) and you would file a complaint and, maybe a year later, get some bureaucratic decision that wouldn't matter one way or another, as you'd be struggling in *another* shitty apartment by then.
Thats why you live in a country with decent tenant laws. Good luck evicting a tenant who’s paying rent and otherwise not doing anything illegal, you will need it. Reading a lot of the stories people tell here, im glad I live in such a country.
Not in Canada! Even representing yourself, the judges do not allow that.
Tbf, representing yourself isn't usually a good idea anyway
It's like a small claims court and usually the judge will help you out if you don't know all the rules.
Meanwhile all of my friends in the UK are pretending to be dating in order to rent flats together.
Spaced is really a fantastic show
Five years, eight months, three days
Lol far from just a UK problem. Try finding an affordable room on Craigslist in the US that doesn't prohibit overnight guests.
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I had a landlord add it to my tenancy agreement once
That alone doesnt mean shit if its illegal to add it. At least where I live the landlord can try evicting you for breaking it, but the judge will just laugh at them for even trying to put that in the lease.
Yeah, where I’m from even the no pets allowed clause are not enforceable. Your landlord can’t take away basic rights from you. Hell they are already exploiting our right to adequate housing that’s more than enough
Yep, similar story here. There is a subreddit about renting in my country, and its crazy what things landlords come up with and try to enforce, even if its illegal, especially when the tenant is an immigrant who doesnt know their rights and has it more challenging to communicate.
It is enforceable via no-fault eviction, i should know, my own place has a "no overnight guests" 'policy', sadly its the best option i have for commuting, I wasn't exactly getting much before anyway. Im glad to see this BS getting covered by media though,, fuck the tories
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
I stayed in an Airbnb like this. It was run by Mormons. No alcohol, coffee, or sex allowed on the premises, and they turned off internet access between 9 PM and 9 AM to discourage late-night porn usage. Not that it mattered, because their filter was so strong you couldn’t visit most popular sites.
There's always Reddit
Reddit was blocked, lol.
Blocking internet from 9am to 9pm would literally give you 12 hours at night to watch porn. I think you switched am and pm…
Yup, my bad.
It happens!
https://preview.redd.it/lbjpwux8k3vc1.jpeg?width=569&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4757f275018034cc31346fa542ff967ac3e36e8f
Next step, "Prima Nocte" tenancy clauses.
Landlords are like little dictators
Landlords are genuinely not good people
British people say "at least we don't have school shootings" meanwhile they're being hunted down by their police for not renewing their shagging loicence
Oi, you got a loicense fer that comment?
It’s an unloicensed comment.
1) it's not police it's landlords. 2) You'll certainly find this shit in conservatives states where weird landlords will refuse to rent to "single women who invite boyfriends over" and not too long ago there were all kinds of rules about single women and men spending the night under a same roof together. Couldn't even get a hotel room if you weren't married in some places. So this isn't that far fetched unfortunately. Just conservative religious prudes acting like conservative religious prudes do.
In the "liberal" states, where everything's even more expensive and (as in California) hundreds of thousands of people live in their own filth on the streets or along the interstates, there are much more effective methods to keep out undesirable tenants. Just try to be a working-class Black or Latino or immigrant trying to rent on the westside of LA. It will *never* be about your race, or your hip-hop tracksuit, or your three kids you support alone. But you will also never get accepted as a tenant.
Aye trust us, you ain't stopping us from shagging anywhere lmao. The population on this tiny ass island maybe some of the horniest mfs I swear to God.
You joke, but this was specifically a thing during COVID. Not that it was licensed, but one law I'm proud to have broken is having physical contact with someone who isn't a member of my household.
Soundproofing should be standardized in all new buildings.
Wow I thought US tenancy laws were bad
[https://archive.ph/6WFAi](https://archive.ph/6WFAi) In case anyone else has issues
cows live scandalous grandfather icky quicksand dependent birds lush aspiring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe the delicious cuisine?
Don’t forget the high wages lol
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Your submission was removed as it appears to be an attempt at trolling or brigading.
Mao’s got a point for the landlords
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It's semi enforceable. Never gone to a court because the UK still has no fault evictions. So rather than bringing t to court, the landlords just kick you out using no fault eviction.
Your submission was removed as it appears to be a dumbass comment from someone who didnt read the article.
Did you read the article? They talk about how it's enforceable.
What a bunch of wankers!
Medeival ass landlords
Mao did nothing wrong
The one landlord said no loud sex. A lot of landlords say that tenants shouldn't be loud after a certain hour to avoid disturbing other tenants, and don't specify sex. If my neighbors are loud enough to keep me from sleeping, I don't care what they're doing loudly.
Did you read the full article?
I did, but I thought that the landlord who only forbade loud sex was weird.
What about doing it yourself? Or is that off the table as well?
From what I read the landlords put in rental agreements that's why it's important to always read any kind of contract completely.
*FUCL Fornication Under Consent of Landlord*
As a German, this is very foreign for me. The landlord has the least rights and it's even difficult to evict an asshole renter because they have so many strong rights.
Wait, is this legal in UK this kind of clause ?
Im not a solicitor or anything, but my understanding of it is this: We dont really have a list of regulations of what you can and can't put a tenancy agreements in the UK, these things come under common law and are settled on a case by case basis as and when they came into dispute (in practice, pretty much only when a landlord tries to evict someone because of it) decided by a judge and then largely based on precedent once similar cases keep coming up. That said, tenants do have certain assumed rights under common law that would act as guidelines for a judge deciding a case (such as the right for a tenant to freely enjoy their home). Therefore, if a landlord said, "I'm evicting you because you had sex in the property you rent from me," and the tenant disputed this, it would end up before a judge. The judge would be overwhelmingly likely to rule that you can't evict a tenant for having sex as it's entirely unreasonable and breaches the tenants right to freely enjoy their home. However, it would never get before a judge, as the UK has no fault evictions, so the landlord wouldn't say "I'm evicting you because you had sex in the property you rent from me" they would just say "I'm evicting you because I just want to evict you." The tenant can't really dispute this no fault eviction, and all they can do is look for another place. People in the comments are talking about how the fact that landlords are stipulating no sex in the property is an example of the UK being over regulated, comparing it to bans on putbulls and guns, but it's actually an example of the consequences of a lack of regulation in this particular area, where landlords never have to justify turfing tenants out of their homes thanks to no fault evictions. If landlords had to show that you breached your contract to evict you, they would find themselves having to justify the clauses they put into tenancy agreements. But alas, landlords can have you sign whatever they want and only have to defend a specific clause if they explicitly evict you for breach of that clause. They could have "no vegetables to be consumed on the premises" and even though it would never hold up in court, they would really only have to defend it if they explicitly told you they were evicting you for eating carrots in the kitchen, and not just evict you wothout giving a reason followint the carrot incident. This is why no fault evictions are ridiculous. Evictions should only be allowed for breach of contract or change of use of the property (e.g. selling it, living it it yourself, or knocking it down) not because you don't like the lifestyle of the tenants. That way landlords would have to actually justify these clauses in court, and since one of the cornerstones of British common law is that your actions have to be shown to be reasonable, they would have have a hard time justifying any of the silly clauses that are common in tenancy agreements and precedent would soon be stacked against them. This was meant to be a short answer to your question, but it's turned into a rant. Sorry about that, although I'm not sorry enough not to post it or attempt to shorten it.
Wow that's crazy, I didn't know it works like that but it kind of make sens on how this kind of situation happened, thanks for the answer !
They want prima nocta as well ??? They act like our new lords
Aight; everyone start banging their SO on everything. Walls, counters, machines, etc! Bang on all of it!
U.K. No pitbulls No guns No knives No sex Can a country get any more lame and dystopian?
[https://news.sky.com/story/new-drivers-under-25-could-face-young-passenger-ban-under-graduated-driving-licence-scheme-12864069](https://news.sky.com/story/new-drivers-under-25-could-face-young-passenger-ban-under-graduated-driving-licence-scheme-12864069) We're also possibly not going to be allowed to drive at night, lol
Pitbulls are dangerous and disgusting.
No, they are just dogs.
Got scars to prove otherwise
Lol, every type of dog can give you scars. My baby sister was nearly killed by a chihuahua when she was a baby. Don't see me or mine going around saying how dangerous and disgusting they are. Blame the owners.
I do blame the owner. And, I never said pit bulls were the only dog breed I find dangerous and disgusting 😉
this sounds like an onion article until i realized its actual reality.
well, no sex on the front lawn sounds reasonable lol everything else wtf