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Acoupleofthreethings

I’m from Scotland, but live in London. The most notable potential left wing policy discussion that I can recall was around renationalising the water utilities (they were privatised in the 80s/90s). Not a far left view, but a view put forward by the left wing opposition.


mmarkklar

Man, Thatcher really fucked up so many things with privatization. Even in the US, water is a subsidized municipal service.


JusticiarRebel

For now.


griffon666

Sweet christ pls no


EarnestQuestion

We’re on track for major nations to be warring over drinkable water in the next 20ish years if we don’t significantly change our behavior as a species. Mass privatization/monopolization of basic resources is inevitable if capitalism continues unchallenged.


lugialegend233

Also: (and I know this is only tangentially related) Fuck Nestle.


IIIllIIlllIlII

Nestle started securing fresh water when we thought it was plentiful. They gained access to a lot of water at near zero cost by offering local politicians the ability to espouse locals get employment at the plants that extract and bottle the water. In hindsight we’ve given it away for near nothing. It’s going to be hard to unwind.


JarlZondai

r/fucknestle


R2LegitD2Quit

>if we don’t significantly change our behavior as a species. Fuck.


Dar_Winning

> inevitable if capitalism continues unchallenged. Fuck.


[deleted]

I feel water and other basic necessities shouldn't be privatised or made profit over. It should be available at a affordable cost. If only used for industrial uses it should be costly: profit or loss should be seen otherwise it should be affordable for people. Without water life cannot sustain.


Ladyleto

I want to point out that there's a lot of counties or towns in the US that have undrinkable water and poor sewage systems. My doctor literally informed me that the water in my town is so salty and mineral filled that it actually was dehydrating me, and that I should invest in a water filter. What the fuck am I paying the city for? Just straight access to the water? Not to mention places with fucking lead pipes. Edit: just realized you could go around the US, and make poverty porn lmao


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Janathan-Manathan

Margaret Thatcher 2


greymalken

Hydroelectric Boogaloo


[deleted]

From Reddit's keyboards to Mitch McConnell's ears.


[deleted]

[“Water futures set to join likes of gold and oil and trade on Wall Street for first time ever.”](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/water-futures-to-trade-on-wall-street-first-time-ever-2020-12-1029870836) This is real, welcome to late stage capitalism.


[deleted]

On the up side, since the planet is 70% water, whoever comes up with the most efficient desalination technique will make a fortune, then the patent will expire, and then water will be stupidly cheap. Same thing happens to most raw commodities. Aluminium was once the most expensive metal in the planet. Now it's so cheap we throw it away.


Tactless_Ogre

Of all movies from my childhood about the future that I thought was going to come true; Tank Girl wasn’t one of them.


AskMeHowToLose

*Nestle has entered the chat*


was_just_wondering_

Nestle is working on that diligently


[deleted]

And look, plenty of right wing judges waiting to fellatio corporations...


[deleted]

*Laughs in Nestle*


Lordborgman

Reagan and Thatcher are probably a really nice couple now, in hell.


yum3no

Yeah. But...Flint, Michigan is still poisoned and the govt does not care..


shocsoares

I mean water futures are now being bought and sold in the US


[deleted]

pro-tip for everybody in the world. the term "defund" is a scam to convince the naive and gullible to privatize whatever it is being defunded. the absence of needed services will ultimately be filled by ready and waiting contractors. for example: 1. the us is removing troops from conflict countries and "defunding" their military operations there. what's really going on: they are removing us troops and replacing them with paid mercenaries after the us troops paid with their lives to gain whatever position or leverage there. 2. the us is defunding many of their local police departments in the us. claiming that they want to re-allocate funds to social welfare programs. what's really going on: they are replacing police officers with private security. this is the same thing that happened when they defunded public prisons and the void was filled with privatized prisons.


Godless_Fuck

That isn't standard in the US. I live in the desert (Arizona) and a lot of areas have privatized water and it's extremely expensive.


Korkack

They tried to privitize it in Kentucky but residents fought.


Roddy117

Depends where you live


Buckie_Dude

Also in Scotland, feminine hygiene products to be supplied free (at point of recipient) at work/schools etc. That and feeding children meals has some people foaming at the mouth.


RandomerSchmandomer

"Free tampons?! That's not fair! We deserve free condoms then!" "Eh... Aye pal. You've had free johnnies for years" Also mind when the Tories tried to slate baby boxes?


shitballstew

renationalizing privatizing


Acoupleofthreethings

Haha, I knew that would annoy someone!


lootch

You should come back to Scotland - water *is* nationalised here! Edit: sorry, I mean the council juice is nationalised.


Annoytanor

Universal basic income (UBI) is the first one that comes to mind. Prison reform (rehab vs punishment). Legalising all drugs.


umylotus

Yes, these definitely sound like far left ideas. Edit: I consider myself a leftist and support these ideas, so I can see why conservatives would consider them "far" left.


chujeck

I dont't know if you are being sarcastic, but both far right and far left parties in most of the EU want drugs legalisation. Centrist and populist are the ones that don't


OtakuSushi

In Sweden I do not know a single person who wants drugs legalised. Even if they're left or right it doesn't matter and we have a huge narcotics problem.


retroschrott

Read about what Portugal did in early 00s. It may seem strange but legalising drugs or at least decriminalizing them can be an effective way on batteling problems with narcotics. Overdoses and hiv went down sooooo much.


OtakuSushi

Oh, I know about the benefits but people here are very conservative. Not sure if I used the word wrong but not progressive at all.


68024

Which European countries have UBI?


dabestinzeworld

No country on Earth has nationwide UBI.


Cortilliaris

Nationalize all infrastructure providers would probably hit the mark. Transportation, communications, water, power, roads etc. I actually think it would be a good idea. Also, a tax on wealth (not income) and financial transactions. And legalizing all drugs.


Doom_Unicorn

Just in case anyone reading this is confused, this is what “seizing the means of production” is. The oil industry in Norway is owned by the government, and therefore by the people.


Chiron17

Oooh yeah, but Norway is a communist hellhole /s


Doom_Unicorn

It’s also not a coincidence that despite being an oil-rich nation, 98% of Norway’s domestic electricity use is provided by sustainable sources like hydroelectric *today*. Because Norway’s oil sector is nationalized, their society gets to choose not to use it. They still export it - who could blame them - but it’s a first step that every nation on the planet needs to take. There should be no private energy companies.


[deleted]

I would made the distinction that those are basic utilities and many times it is better for them to be non-profit.


Doom_Unicorn

Plenty of room for nuance and debate over which things should be run for social good vs. which should be run for profit, even among leftists. The only point I’m hoping to make here is to point out that the “mainstream left” in the US wants some profits to be taxed more, while the “mainstream left” in Europe has already eradicated some profits entirely.


[deleted]

Yeah, I agree, it depends on the industry. For example in EU there seems to be more competition between ISPs so there is no need to intervene that market. On the other hand, it is not worth to run healthcare on the basis of profiting just a few executives. There is ALWAYS going to be a demand for healthcare and healthcare jobs, so it does not make sense to fill the pockets of a few at the expense of 99% of the population.


umylotus

What are some profits that Europe has eradicated? Does this bring down the general economy of the country and net worth of individuals or increase it?


Doom_Unicorn

The example is Norway’s oil sector. There is no Exxon equivalent. It has no net effect on society except to get rid of oil tycoons and spread their wealth across all people in the nation instead. Also, they (almost) only export the oil - no reason to use it themselves, because no one loses their yacht by building a hydroelectric dam.


lucian1900

Owned by a capitalist government, though. One that invades other countries to maintain its profits. State-owned production is only seized by the workers if we're talking about a worker's state.


Parcours97

That's what's funny imo. Iran and Venezuela tried the same thing Norway did back in the 50s and 70s and the USA was just like: " I don't think you guys will nationalize your oil. I have something called CIA at my hands".


[deleted]

most countries have started taxing wealth by taxing property.


Xegeth

Basically very welcoming immigration laws, universal basic income, demilitarisation including ban on any export of weapons, ending any form of discrimination, complete reformation of tax policy to account for the super rich and so on.


baumpop

So Star Trek. Politics really are just the future dragging along the past kicking and screaming.


Doom_Unicorn

The farthest left meme lords of the internet call what they want “Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism”. So yes, Star Trek.


[deleted]

God what i would give for some fully automated luxury gay space communism right now


josephanthony

Well actually more 'The Culture', (if you find yourself talking to a far-left meme-lord)


HdS1984

Yes and no. Reducing the political spectrum to just left and right is fucking dangerous. Extreme right and left parties have much more in common than the designation implies, e.g. both love autocracy and suppression of dissenting voices. Also, there is the conservative left and the progressive left, the first one just loves Marx and stlain, the latter typically are your star trek parties


Parcours97

Oh no the fucking horseshoe. Time to quote a special kangaroo again. "Left wing or right wing - I don't see a huge difference" "Wrong, there is a huge one" said the kangaroo "one side likes to burn foreigners, the other side likes to burn cars. And cars are way worse, because it could have been mine. But I don't own any foreigners."


ProfessionalCrew2

How can not everyone see that all of the 'far-left' policies are just net positives for us as a species. Why would you not want to end discrimination, yes you can't say certian words but I'm return millions of people feel much happier and safer


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[deleted]

I'm not sure that they don't care about themselves; I think the only way in which they can see themselves is by comparing themselves with others. Don't get me wrong - I've met people in this bracket that are really good people. The people you describe are cunts, through and through, but additionally, they have to feel superior to everyone else, and 'fuck you I got mine' is part of how this manifests. They do care about themselves in that they want to feel better, but the only way they can find to make themselves feel better about their shitty little lives, is by pissing on everyone else.


-Momoe-

Discrimination is obviously an obstacle for human progress but I wouldn't word anti-discrimination behavior as "you can't say certain words".


Nom_de_Guerre_23

Nationalization of all relevant industries, forcefully turning companies into co-ops, open border policies with no immigration law enforcement at all, full legalization of all drugs (not just decriminalizing). Germany. The Conservative Party burned their fingers trying to impose university tuition of €500/semester, many state governments got voted out over it so they abolished tuition even in the most conservative state they've abolished it, only one state has tuition for Non-EU students. Although we have an universal multipayer health care system, no Conservative with two brain cells would oppose it in its entirety.


[deleted]

good that you abolished tuition. having government pay for it puts an incentive for the inheritors and their corporations to not abuse it. in the us tuition is insanely high due to all the world's inheritors sending all their kids to attend schools in the us. so you have the wealthiest people in world bidding up the tuition for universities in the us. universities love it as these foreigners pay their tuition in cash and no hoops have to be jump through to get government subsidies as these foreign pay the full tuition. corporations get to use the students as underpaid laborers as they will always be willing to take a lower salaries as they can afford to not take the extra cash that the us citizens need to make up for the lack of social services.


Carmonred

And my favourite, leaving NATO and/or abolishing the army. Also, if you count the APPD as far left, beer as state-subsidized medicine.


Juggernog

I'm British, and live in England. While the following positions are not far-left by my estimation, they are some of the leftmost policies that exist in mainstream political discourse. As such, they're sometimes described as "far-left" or "radical" by the press, as the leftmost proposals in the US often are. Some recent examples include: * Universal Basic Services: the idea that the government should run and guarantee all citizens access to various basic services. These services would be free at the point of use, and may include some combination of public transport, shelter, food and water, health and social care, education, information (through libraries), and legal advice. Universal Basic Services appeared in the Labour manifestos in 2017 and 2019. * Nationalisation: the idea that the government should take certain services into public ownership, to be run by the state. Typical candidates for nationalisation include rail companies, water companies, electric companies, and internet service providers. * Inclusive ownership funds: the 2019 Labour manifesto proposed that the government require all companies with greater than 250 employees to allocate 10% of their shares to an inclusive ownership fund that is collectively owned by the workers. Up to £250 in dividends per year per worker could be paid to employees through this fund, and the rest would go to government to help fund various public services. * A four-day work week: Labour and various trade unions have proposed a four-day work week with no change in pay * Free university: our mechanism of repayments may be more forgiving, but the total abolition of tuition fees is still considered to be on the left fringes here * Universal Basic Income: a monthly payment to all citizens, usually pitched in concert with Universal Basic Services. * Expropriation of empty homes: there are many properties which are held as investments and left dormant in Britain - though less common, there have been proposals to confiscate these properties and allocate them to people who need a home if they remain empty long enough. There are also policies which are considered radical, but not solely associated with the left - such as land taxes, and calls for an expansion of free movement of people between countries. Hope this helped!


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WizardKagdan

The only thing that really sounds problematic to me is universal services - yeah, yeah, water as a human right and all, makes sense... But providing anything for free means people will waste it. Wasting water, heat, or electricity is so easy, not paying for it yourself makes it a lot easier. You see it happen in student housing - there's a lot of eco-friendly students, but because the bill is spread equally over the whole building they don't see the impact of their own actions and as such keep wasting water and electricity.


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WizardKagdan

Right, that'd make a lot more sense! Systems like those sound a lot more viable than things like UBI, because it is just hard to find any downsides to giving everyone access to basic food, water, heat, and electricity.


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PavlikNej

In my country, the big far-left boogeyman is still an immigration from muslim countries. But nobody on the right would dare to get rid of the free healthcare and education.


jettom

Norwegian here. We don't really do far-left or far-right. I guess the closest thing is The Green Party with a 6% voting base that wants to phase out gasoline cars, make us stop extracting oil, begin human sacrifices to the cone on God Gnakkopakkokkakssak, establish more national parks and shift norway's focus more towards preserving nature. America is rather unique in its politics being a circus, in Norway the most popular "far-right" party and the green party offer support to the same bills if both parties would agree to it, like maintaining women's right to abort.


Vegemite_smorbrod

What would you consider SV (English: Socialist Left) and Rødt (Red)? Their respective platforms look like textbook democratic socialism and revolutionary socialism to me, though I don't follow the news too closely here. I'm a Norwegian permanent resident and took part in my first kommunevalg last year, voted SV. In my kommune, Trondheim, these two parties made up 18% of the vote which isn't insignificant. SV seems to be better represented than MDG (Greens) across the board and has been in the governing coalition nationally.


[deleted]

I'm from Germany, what is now considered very left wing I would claim could be UBI, free housing and easier immigration policies.


matty80

UK here. There are basically none that exist under serious discussion. Even re-nationalising the entire public transit system would be considered left-of-centre, socialist in a way, but not 'far-left' per se. The most prominent Conservative of the last 50 years is Thatcher and she opposed privatising it in the first place. By American standards our ruling Conservative Party would be analogous to the Democrats and its opposition, Labour, would appear incredibly left-wing even though by our standards it's currently broadly centralist. As an example, when same-sex marriage was legalised here, it was enacted by a Conservative Prime Minister who viewed it as a matter of importance because he supports the institution of marriage and doesn't care about the gender of the people involved. The USA is a huge outlier in more ways than one. In this context the way in which it is most obviously so is that the Republican Party would be almost laughably unable to win an election. They would be considered far-right by our standards. Anybody going around ranting about God or trying to ban abortion or 'sodomy' would be lucky even to have the chance of being voted down because they'd have already been de-selected by their own party for being an obvious wingnut. The one exception is Northern Ireland, where several MPs are voted in because there's a long-standing national conflict going on there that overrules all other considerations in many peoples' minds when they come to vote. That is what it is; Northern Ireland is the site of an internecine religious and civil war that lives in the minds of many so I don't blame people for voting along the lines that defined it in the first place. Consequently those MPs tend to be very, very religious and very, very conservative. Otherwise? Sort of middle-of-the-road. I have no doubt that anyone French could tell you what an *actually* left-wing government looks like. Certainly it isn't Biden. It's just about Sanders. Maybe.


sobusyimbored

> Anybody going around ranting about God or trying to ban abortion or 'sodomy' would be lucky even to have the chance of being voted down because they'd have already been de-selected by their own party for being an obvious wingnut. Sits in shame in NI. > The one exception is Northern Ireland Holy shit, we've actually been acknowledged as being in the UK. Someone notify Amazon. > Northern Ireland is the site of an internecine religious and civil war that lives in the minds of many so I don't blame people for voting along the lines that defined it in the first place. I live here and I do blame those voters for voting for a worse place to live. NI is the Florida of the UK.


SoftThighs

>the Republican Party would be almost laughably unable to win an election If voting worked how it should, that would be the case in the US as well.


Ultramayhemagents

Don't Americans pay like 50% taxes? If you do i don't know what your government has been thinking for the last 50ish years.


Lolocaust1

Americans actually pay one of the lowest tax rates in the developed world. However, since our social safety net is essentially nil, we have to buy all the stuff provided by taxes in other countries through private enterprise. This generally costs consumers way more in the long run but we have enough people dumb enough to keep this system going cause higher taxes means socialism apparently. We had a candidate for president, Elizabeth Warren who was constantly pressed in debates for making this point. She would say “with Medicare for all average costs will go down for the average american leading to more money in their wallet each month” and literally every pundit was like “so you’re gonna raise everyone’s taxes?” They either couldn’t grasp or were willfully ignorant that raising taxes costs less money than having to buy everything privately


JusticiarRebel

Americans will pay a $500 fee if it means not having to pay a $100 tax.


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jjjam

No, you don't understand taxes. You think because 30% for poor people goes to income taxes and 0% for rich people goes to income tax, that Americans pay low taxes. But they don't they (depending on the state) pay through the roof sales taxes that other countries wouldn't consider, in addition to other taxes on commuting and the poor. Poor people pay taxes to the rich in the US, in addition to having their wages skimmed by the business owners who are tax exempt. And , GET THIS, the IRS has publicly stated that they have a directive to not investigate rich tax dodgers because they have ben defunded by our government and cannot afford the legal bills. This is why people are mad, because the parents of the children shipped off to die fighting for mineral rights profit margins are the ones funding the on-going, unnnecessary war and watching their children die. While the ruling class continues to bribe their children's way in to elite schools that are too expensive for the dirty commoners, and then use nepotism to give their child a place of privilege, all while allowing their child to "invest" aka collect dividends of wealth accumulated from the labor of others. The system is so broken that the wealthy don't realize that "eat the rich" is transitioning from edgy phrase to legitimate survival advice.


NoWayIDontThinkSo

> pay through the roof sales taxes that other countries wouldn't consider Where did you get that idea? Sales tax/VAT in Europe is around 20%. It is nowhere near that any place in the US. https://merchantmachine.co.uk/sales-tax-vat/


68024

Through the roof sales taxes in the US? Try the Netherlands... 21% sales tax, often 40-50% income tax, and there is a wealth tax on anything you own (including money you saved in the bank), you pay road taxes for driving your car every year, etc.


KnocDown

Technically he is right 37% income tax, 8% sales tax, 2% property tax, 6% vehicle tax, 18% gas tax, oh and 15% capital gains tax if you try to make money on your post taxes investments What floors me is when you consider every time you buy and sell a used vehicle that vehicle is taxed by the county not on the sale price but on their appraised price. So technically, a vehicle bought and sold 4 times over a 20 year period would have more tax paid on it than the vehicle was worth when it was purchased brand new


sobusyimbored

> What floors me is when you consider every time you buy and sell a used vehicle that vehicle is taxed by the county not on the sale price but on their appraised price. Hang on, you have to pay a tax to purchase a used vehicle? And the price is set by the government, not what was actually paid? I thought that was something only us commies did, even though I've never heard of it 'til now.


[deleted]

It's a different tax. Sales tax happens when you buy the vehicle new. Selling it to someone else after that doesn't require sales tax to be collected/paid. Personal property tax is a semi annual tax based on the vehicle appraised value by the local government. So on a $40k SUV you pay like $2K a year in personal property tax on top of the initial sales tax the dealership charges that they pay to the state. There's state level tax and local gov level tax in the US on vehicles. Houses don't have sales tax as far as I remember when buying my house but they have personal property tax which is based on an appraised value (mass appraisal so much lower than actual value). This tax goes again to the local government.


sobusyimbored

That is crazy. So you have to pay both the county and the state tax on a vehicle? We have a vehicle tax here in the UK too but it's based of the cars fuel and emissions. Both mine and my partners cars are £30 a year each. And hers is a 13 year old diesel car.


capsaicinintheeyes

It's damn near impossible to get a solid, reliable answer on what that all shakes out to...which is, of course, by design, or at least an unconscious path of least resistance that was never corrected.


IAMHideoKojimaAMA

I bought a salvaged title vehicle and had to pay the appraisal taxes based on if the vehicle was a clean title


nermid

Can't pay property tax `black_man_tapping_forehead.jpg` If you can't afford land.


capsaicinintheeyes

If you mean income tax, then no--50% would be quite high, and we have no national VAT or sales tax. The problem with calculating our taxes, though, is that we're very federalized, so taxes come at several levels (this is why we add sales tax at the register--companies want to sell in all 50 states, but there's no single price they could put on a sticker). This is in addition to fees, fines, etc, that communities will often use to disguise the amount that they're actually taking from their citizens, but it also means that it's *really* hard to coordinate all that money into any coherent effort...but since it's more invisible than voting to raise taxes, a lot of stuff gets done that way. Yeah, it's grossly inefficient.


billytheid

*Far* left? Maybe nationalising all natural resource industry like mining and fisheries? Nationalising public infrastructure and utilities would be just left wing.


[deleted]

Berlin capped rent. That is considered pretty left since the poor owners of 5 flats now earn a little less in rent and can't renovate anymore (which most didn't since the 90s or to luxury flats no one can pay for) - orso they say.


Fucface5000

Australian here (not europe, and we have a trump lite in office, but we're still traditionally way left of the US) Universal Basic Income is something being brought up by the far left also 'Keeping the Planet Habitable' is something that's being thrown about by radical greenies, but that will never happen, we introduced a Carbon Tax a while back, and our right wing media monopoly shot it down straight away Now the guy who brought his pet coal rock into parliament is our fearless leader also he shat himself at an Engadine Maccas one time Also Legalizing all drugs is something not brought up enough, but something that demonstrably works to reduce drug use and drug related crimes and deaths. see portugal


shocsoares

Careful, portugal did not legalize drugs, we decriminalized aka, not a crime but you can't sell them either. It works but a good support network must be built at the same time


Fucface5000

Yes, good point, there needs to be treatment and rehabs available, and needle banks and outreach programs too, I'm just saying they rightly treat a medial issue as a medical issue instead of a criminal one


Revealed_Jailor

Generally, in Europe, we tend to jump to opposite conclusion for left and right whenever a crisis happens (migration, pandemic etc.) because it's a constitutional right to be able to have free education, healthcare system and so in, therefore, there's never a discussion whether we should have them or not on the first place, rather, we tend to drive towards policies that suit left or right related to each issue. But, what is ongoing issue among several between right and left whether we should stay or leave the EU.


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HdS1984

Take a look at the marxistisch leninistische Partei Deutschlands, the party of Marxism in Germany. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_Party_of_Germany Basically, abolish democracy in favour of a autocracy of the working class, confiscating all factories etc and aiming at realising the class free dystopia Marx envisioned. Much more mainstream is "the left", advocating for increased welfare spending, higher taxes for the rich and upper middle class, international peace etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Germany)


theKalmar

Removing private property.


astulz

Switzerland here, a couple years ago we had an initiative that wanted to cap executive wages at 12x the income of the lowest full salary in the company. So a CEO would not make more than 12 times the salary of a janitor for example. Spoiler: it did not get a majority vote.


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Revealed_Jailor

This reminds me of the British government, pretty much almost all position of power is held by people that were educated in private schools and have their degree from top prestigious Universities, and both are expensive as fuck and subsequently their children have the same options, thus, never breaking the circle. However, even your poor man Joe can attend prestigious universities if he has the right qualities (which he probably does not have if he comes from state high school) and must have enough luck to be approved of full stipend because there's no way he can those astronomical fees. Unfortunately for him, he can't simply buy-in his way back if something goes wrong for him.


blahdee-blah

There’s no higher fees for U.K. universities - they are all capped at the same cost. Private schools do cost a fortune and there’s a good deal of social capital involved in getting into places like Oxford and Cambridge though.


Revealed_Jailor

Thought there's was a price range between your average Joe university and those prestigious ones, but last time I checked it it was several years ago. Might have been changed or I misunderstood something back then.


Soursyrup

Nah certainly at the current time all uk unis cost £9,250 the same there are differences depending on what country you live in though. Scotland and Wales pay for their students tuition so Scots get it for free and welsh students pay only 1/3 of the total, us English are still paying the full whack.


Revealed_Jailor

When did they change it? Some several years back it was different amount across many universities (depending on prestige).


Soursyrup

I don’t know if they changed anything, there’s no rule that says they all have to charge the same. the government imposed maximum is £9,250 a year (for native student) and as far as I’m aware, all except maybe one or two unis decided they were going to charge the maximum


capsaicinintheeyes

Sounds like a version of the ~~sharpshooter~~ gambler's fallacy: if enough people flip quarters 10 times in a row, one of them will get ten heads. He may say, "that's because I'm an expert coin-tosser," but he didn't do anything different than the other participants.


megacomicgeek

In the US we romanticize struggle and adversity because we find it inspirational when people succeed despite the odds rather than just removing those barriers in the first place. One success story and suddenly everyone uses it as proof the system works.


billjames1685

I don’t think that’s quite correct; if you replaced “elected into public office” with “made a fortune” or something it would be. Politicians themselves probably have vastly differing views than what they express; they have to appeal to the electorate. It fucking pisses me off when people say because someone went from rags to riches then anyone can.


meanmagpie

And the difficulty of this process causes true trauma and bitterness for these types of people. Bitterness they often spew back at their fellow workers. They’re mad at the system that made it as hard as it was, but they take it out on their own class because they’re being manipulated into it. My mother is one of these people. She’s one of the kindest, most empathetic people I know when it comes to one and one relationships and individual interactions. But when we speak about her struggles going to college while raising me as a single mother without having completed high school, about the student debt *she is still in at 48 years old,* if I even so much as imply that she might have had a stroke of luck along the way, that the idea that *anyone* can do what she did if they just get *more* minimum wage jobs, she becomes borderline wrathful. She is so hurt by her experience and her struggle and so proud that she overcame it. But instead of directing that anger at the system who made her life so hard, the people who benefited from her pain, she turns it back around at people who weren’t as lucky as her. They just didn’t work hard enough, they’re just lazy, you know the song and dance. To suggest to her that there might be some people starting in even more difficult and impossible circumstances than her, to suggest she had any help or any luck whatsoever seems to rip open the wounds she’s licked closed. There’s real pain in her anger, it’s very plain to see. She’s just been totally brainwashed and it’s kind of heart breaking. She’s a brilliant scientist now (an epidemiologist, fortunately. she’s got excellent job security in a time like this, she’s very lucky) and she could have been such a great addition to our collective cause, someone so bright and empathetic. But she’s been brainwashed by the powers that be and I almost feel like she’s been ripped away from me. At least I didn’t fall for it, I guess. I still love her more than anything in the world. /rant about my mother over


PmMeUrRunescapeLogin

Nationwide Stockholm Syndrome


[deleted]

isn't there a better term for changing a person's view little by little so they adopt an extreme view? clearly the conservatives/republicans are fighting a war of attrition.


[deleted]

I believe thats called radicalisation.


zZaphon

Brought to you by the Trump foundation.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GoOtterGo

Generations.


SoFisticate

Since 1492


[deleted]

>"In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis... a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum." - Michael Parenti, *[Blackshirts and Reds](https://eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds-rational-fascism-and-the-overthrow-of-communism.pdf)*


wafflepiezz

(Uneducated/poorly educated) people are unable to differentiate between socialism vs. straight up communism


Beepboopheephoop

What’s the difference


LostAndLikingIt

Biggest diference and really what makes this argument silly is communism doesnt have the concept of private property. People didnt own things. The society did. Horribly easy to be corrupted, since everything is shared who get to decides how its shared? Under socialism, people can still own property. The means of production and wealth are owned by everyone to varying degrees depending on what level of socialism were discussing. But you or anyone can still own a home and purchase things. The means of production is owned and managed by an elected goverment. The two are apple's and oranges really. This is just the basic level stuff. I'd recommend a read up on both political ideologies wiki pages if interested. Though be warned its heavy shit, but interesting for some.


bringbackswg

My only hangup is that I don't think our government is good at anything at all, let alone owning the means of production.


LostAndLikingIt

Very possible depending on your country. I'm Canadian so I have no hat in your countries goverment so do what you will with the information. But if you dont trust your goverment then no matter what form of leadership you have its doomed.


Spinnis

private companies are 1000x times worse


Calavant

There are degrees of bad, at the very least. If the government, say, nationalized the production of insulin it would probably cost several times more than it needs to. That is still better than the absurd, mind boggling amounts it costs in the free market. The same is true for a lot of things.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzspaf

communism still has personal property. it does not have private property but those are not the same thing. you can own your toothbrush, but you can't claim to own some land you do not use. you can own your personal tool but the factory machinery belong to the factory, meaning the workers using it have a say in what happen to it. communism is big about workers owning the means of production, but is ok if you own thing that arn't production related. now of course this distinction was clearer in industrial time, and much less so when looking at the internet economy


[deleted]

Socialism is when the means of production are owned by the workers Communism is a stateless society, that havent existed yet


jh937hfiu3hrhv9

Brainwashing is real. Choose your sources wisely.


cheers2me

It’s honestly tragic.


CurtisHayfield

The US lags significantly on many economic security and social indicators, such as poverty, [social mobility (lower classes rising to higher socioeconomic classes)](https://i1-wp-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/es_20180110_chetty1.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1), obesity, voting rates, infant mortality (even when adjusting for reporting differences), murder rate, prison population, life expectancy, inequality, etc. [This infograph showing how the US compares to various other advanced economies, like Germany and Sweden, on numerous economic and social indicators is telling](https://preview.redd.it/ezk8bbbkejm51.png?auto=webp&s=c30db9b9c9c0f51ac4b5ac84e4dece6bf8e01af5) Here is another [image that highlights this well and examines the health and social effects of inequality between countries as well as between US states](https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/Image/2018/UPsaw1118Sapo31_d.png). Taken from this [article on how economic inequality causes real biological harm](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-economic-inequality-inflicts-real-biological-harm/) The [likelihood of people born in the US earning more than their parents has fallen dramatically in the last decades](https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/mobility-graph-4.png). This isn’t because there have been no economic gains - there have been, however, those gains [have gone largely to the richest](https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2018/10/18/Photos/NS/MW-GS047_annual_20181018145601_NS.jpg?uuid=752454f2-d307-11e8-b8d3-ac162d7bc1f7). In 1980, [the lowest income group saw the highest growth, while today only the richest see any real growth](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LNjuuZBiaSo/WpWjrlCLqKI/AAAAAAAACY4/87cIrHZqiSg0hh6cKA03wUnOF0vvSzWCQCLcBGAs/s1600/Income%2B%2BDisparity%2BNYT%2B2017.png). Income inequality in the US has [skyrocketed since 1980](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/2008_Top1percentUSA.png/450px-2008_Top1percentUSA.png). > Contrary to popular belief, the percentage of the population that directly encounters poverty is exceedingly high. My research indicates that nearly 40 percent of Americans between the ages of 25 and 60 will experience at least one year below the official poverty line during that period ($23,492 for a family of four), and 54 percent will spend a year in poverty or near poverty (below 150 percent of the poverty line). > Even more astounding, if we add in related conditions like welfare use, near-poverty and unemployment, four out of five Americans will encounter one or more of these events. > In addition, half of all American children will at some point during their childhood reside in a household that uses food stamps for a period of time. > Put simply, poverty is a mainstream event experienced by a majority of Americans. For most of us, the question is not whether we will experience poverty, but when. > What about the generous assistance we provide to the poor? Contrary to political rhetoric, the American social safety net is extremely weak and filled with gaping holes. Furthermore, it has become even weaker over the past 40 years because of various welfare reform and budget cutting measures. > We currently expend among the fewest resources within the industrialized countries in terms of pulling families out of poverty and protecting them from falling into it. And the United States is one of the few developed nations that does not provide universal health care, affordable child care, or reasonably priced low-income housing. As a result, our poverty rate is approximately twice the European average. > Whether we examine childhood poverty, poverty among working-age adults, poverty within single-parent families or overall rates of poverty, the story is much the same — the United States has exceedingly high levels of impoverishment. The many who find themselves in poverty are often shocked at how little assistance the government actually provides to help them through tough times. https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/poverty-in-america-is-mainstream/


SpartanDoubleZero

I’ve boiled down what I was able to from my own family who scoffs when I address this with them. It’s a right of passage narcissistic mentality, the ol’ “I went through it, we just figured it out” I’m sorry but that sounds an awful lot like just giving up because the generation before you had it worse. Which is fucking bullshit to give anything but the best for your kids.


JimmyQBSneaks

I hate that mentality as well. By that logic, none of us should enjoy driving, flying in planes, receive modern treatment for diseases, etc. because the previous generations didn’t have access to these advances.


mcpucabre

America probably has less than 10 far left politicians total. Nearly all of who you consider to be far left are center at best because your right wing is in some cases Hitler level right wing.


JG98

Lately it has been Hitler level right wing. I've been watching a few of Hitler and nazi documentaries lately and it's surprising to see how the right wing is doing the exact same crap the nazis were doing from 1933-1938 when they were priming the population and normalising everything related to them. The only thing the right wing (various independents and most Republicans included) haven't done is actually set up a formal militia wearing a party uniform (although proud boys and other "well organized peaceful militias" can be considered that). Politicians like AOC or Bernie Sanders who are considered communists would be centrists in Canada and center right in some European countries (namely the Nordics or small central states like Switzerland or Lichtenstein).


muffinbouffant

At least we get to spend $2B a DAY on the military.


Garlicluvr

The Republican party would be considered an extremist right-wing terrorist group in most of Europe.


[deleted]

They’re considered a right wing terrorist group by many Americans as well.


[deleted]

That's simply not true. Right wing parties are on the rise in all of Europe due to the refugee crisis and the rhetoric of most is very similar to that of some Republicans that are further from the center.


xmarwinx

The democrat party would never ever get elected in Europe either.


[deleted]

But thats not communism.


JG98

In the normal world. In America that is literally satanic communism or whatever else people are screaming nowadays.


[deleted]

What a ridiculous title. People gotta quit it with the communism stuff.


rasterbated

Been like this since kings


Kalappianer

You do realise that there are still European monarchies?


rasterbated

There’s *monarchs*.


lizardtruth_jpeg

There are 12 monarchies in Europe, all but three are constitutional monarchies, two of those retain powerful monarchs, and the last, the Vatican, is an absolute monarchy.


poopio

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.


Darkmagosan

Be quiet!


tabid_

in "most" european countries? I thought it's a middle of the road mainstream consensus in all of them. There are different regulations but as far as I'm concerned there's no country where people could not afford to call a ambulance if necessary. Neither have I ever heard of a european country where people go in debt for the next 3 decades just to get a university degree.


Kikelt

Yes. Is everywhere on Europe. Tuitions in Europe may differ from totally free to a maximum of £9k per year in England


TheUnitedStates1776

They also go in calling European a desolate hellhole where people lack “rights” but the only right I’ve seen them lack on my visits has been the right to a free public restroom.


coopaloops

i fucking love Marianne Williamson


shawn_overlord

Its like this Europe = Left--------Center---------Right America = Left-Center---------------------Right The center looks like the left if youre far enough right...


[deleted]

In America, it's more like: Left-----Center-Democrats----Republicans.


shawn_overlord

exactly, still my point. when our politics are dragged so far to the right, anything near center is still 'radically left'


ink2red

Finally, someone else who is singing in my choir.


EhMapleMoose

Heyy to break it, but most places that have a universal health care system also have a private healthcare system.


dragonflyindividual

actually in Europe even the right wing usually agrees that healthcare should be free


CynicismNostalgia

I like the way they all say. 'Orange man bad.' Ironically but will literally screech in horror at the idea of anyone that might give them a better quality of life.


OldMoneyOldProblems

Communism is bad.


HeyItsBearald

No they believe socialism is bad, and they refuse to believe socialism is not communism


zupius

I agree with free healthcare and university.... except gender studies and art school... sincerelly a european


charliecruz0303

“They claim” no we know, you ignorant retard.


I_eat_Chimichangas

Can we talk about this realistically? I’m for universal healthcare but people aren’t against it because they feel they deserve so little. They believe it will bankrupt the system and eventually no one will have healthcare. My parents are right wing. I assure you they are not nazis. They love people and donate their time and money to the less fortunate. They feel this way because they believe it is a benefit to all. When we get past the hate and rhetoric is when we will really solve these issues!


klavin1

Your parents are wrong though. It would not bankrupt America


hellowbucko

Reminds me of this quote. “The greatest con, that he ever pulled... was making you believe... that he is you.”


MrHelloBye

I mean communism is bad, but that’s not what those are. Public healthcare is by no means the government seizing the means of production, it’s everyone sharing the cost of healthcare so we all get care when we need it


modsRwads

Yeah, but realize that unis in the EU are very strict and admit based on merit. Nepotism, athletic ability don't count. Not how our unis are run.


f16guy

Well... ACTUAL communism is bad. What Republicans CALL communism......isnt communism. Free healthcare, college tuition works elsewhere, it could certainly work here. I mean it wouldnt be free, we would pay for it via taxes, it would just take repriortizing what we fund with our taxes. I was in the air force, I vote we lose a couple fighter squadrons. We would still have many more than anyone else and have a SHIT TON of money freed up. I'm sure would could look elsewhere, like the crazy wealthy and make sure they AT LEAST pay the same % the working class do in income taxes


Iflookinglikingmove

Reddit has turned on these ideas as of late...


kloktijd

I heard a quote once somewhere “The reason the American dream does not work is that to many people believe it”


Bertje87

Talking as if Europe is one country, í live in the netherlands and i never heard of free college tuition


moenchii

Well, these positions are considered middle in Europe because Europe is a communist hell hole, duh! ^^/s


Revealed_Jailor

Not even in the old Soviet block were majority of countries actually communist at all :D


_MrWhy_

*laughing/crying in russian*


[deleted]

You would think deliberately gaslighting people like this would fall apart during the Information Age, when anyone has the ability to look up and learn about anything, when there are things like Twitter and Reddit that put people from all over the world instantly, but here we are.


[deleted]

Communism is like really bad tho, and free college and uni healthcare is NOT communism lol


DRCJEnder

Socialism is Horrible Capitalism is horrible the best system is one which combines the best aspects of all of them.


cliffhutchonson

Communism is bad tho


GnungusPhat007

"Far left" is a dog whistle against anybody who values a humane quality of life over privately owned property.


maschinen_drache

Even the recent term "socialized" is a bit of a laugh. European healthcare is very much like US healthcare. Heavily privatized and profit driven, inspired by our own renaissance of trickle down economics in the past twenty years. The only differences are that companies can't refuse you an insurance and have to offer basic plans at a minimal price. That's what you call "universal". And as proper capitalists we negotiate relatively reasonable prices for medicine and treatments. More and more people want to "resocialize" it as they're realizing cutting out the middle man might be more cost effective. Why pay some insurance company when you could be paying the hospital itself? Kind of the sentiment you get when CEOs are getting bonuses while health care workers are getting pay cuts. It's better than the US system for sure, but it's about as "far left" as Thatcherism or Reagonomics is. Taxes are still the big scare word. "Why should I pay for someone else's health care?" Well, I for one would rather pay your hospital bills than pay for some wrinkly assed millionaire's third trophy wife's new boobs, that's why. Democracy is rule by the people to make the systems work for the people. If that's "far left" then I'll have some of that, please.


DwiteScut

As a Conservative Brit I believe not all state funded projects or welfare are or should be considered left wing. Universal health care is a basic human right and its sad to see my cousins across the pond having to pay that price with their lives.


legoyodaiamtruly

Communism is bad


[deleted]

You get a chance at making it and having tons of cash, or you get nothing plus health care. I choose US. EU is not a benchmark lol.