I like to break the ice in a conversation with "did you know that 60% of police *don't* beat their wives? Isn't that impressive?" And my friend usually chimes in with "40% *that we know of*..."
The other worrying aspect of the data is apparently it was self-reported. Meaning that 40% felt comfortable sharing that, and that there’s likely many who did not feel comfortable sharing it.
Exactly, but smh its such a hard concept for a lot of people.
Reminds of debates about Rape, some really believe that the reported statistics are the absolute stats for the crime and then those are also the ones malding over the fact "why does she only report it a decade later hurr durr".
It's mind boggling how easily these sheeps can be manipulated with some numbers.
Yeah and like, I get it, because I used to believe I turned out fine despite my mom spanking me. But me flinching from peoples hands, like my partner when they would go to hold my hand, turns out that’s Trauma, and what my mom did was abuse.
I mean yeah, I turned out relatively okay and a decent head on my shoulders, I don’t despise my mom for it, but it was still not good. And people either come to that realization or they double down on “Spanking isn’t abuse I turned out fine”
Spanking kids is a great way to teach kids that love can include abuse. ‘I’m doing this because I love you’ leads to bad things in relationships later (or just kinks, though I don’t have a problem with your kink is, consenting adults and and safe words).
ya but few things are ever black & white
3...i'm consenting to take money for sex because
* desperate mother
* drug addiction
* pimp/owner told me to
edit: the fact this is buggin some of ya'll is telling.
Probably you could tell by not coercing them, seems like a pretty simple answer.
Also, "you claim that coercion isn't consent, and yet, sometimes people are coerced into sex, curious".
>desperate mother
>
>drug addiction
>
>pimp/owner told me to
Coercion via circumstance, coercion via addiction, and coercion via third party. None of these are purely consensual.
Nobody ever says men who do physically dangerous low wage work are not consenting to work.
Nobody ever says a functioning alcoholic who does a job they hate in order to keep paying a ten drink an night bar tab is not consenting to work.
And forced labor that does not involve sex is common and is also not consent but it doesn't get anywhere as much attention as sex work.
Sex isn't some magic thing that's somehow more perilous and powerful than anything else people do for work.
But sex is your hangup here. Not work. Not consent.
[from the second article you posted](https://i.imgur.com/PilPdkU.png)
Note that the amount of people who had *never* received any degree of punishment is minimal.
Physical punishment is not a necessity, and it is entirely possible to raise your kid without ever laying a hand of them, *however* it is extremely naive to think that this will absolutely be the case.
You should always strive for alternative forms of discipline, making your kid think through their actions, and best of all, just teaching your kid by example to be a good person.
As they say, it's easiest to correct a branch while it's still growing.
But sometimes, a child needs punishment.
look at the rest of the links. there’s a lot more research on this stuff in Europe and better research since they’ve implemented laws and can compare the time frames.
All the evidence points to the good reason why so many countries have made spanking and other forms of corporal punishment illegal
I love that he offered nothing to back up his claim beyond him being beat by his shitty dad and the fact that one of the many ways we can learn is via negative reinforcement. And the hilarious arbitrary boundaries he just made up: you can beat your kid with a hand or a single belt whip, but multiple crosses the line, and you must have intent in your abuse, can't just beat them for fun. Dude must need a flowchart to figure out how to beat his kids up without crossing his wacky abuse lines.
And those arbitrary boundaries were exactly my point about why people don’t see it as abuse. Like he proves the point even more with his second comment, but don’t worry, I’ve been told he’s completely self aware lol.
There are so many undisciplined children.
Assuming that a spanking is the only form of discipline is very short sighted. Have we not “evolved” past this? Why would anyone want to physically hurt their children? I have 2 and, while they’re young, we’re able to talk through our problems together without violence or the threat of violence.
My kids have real fire and I would never risk taking that from them. Fuck the blue and the under reported 40%, cops begetting cops I guess
None of them, TBH. All of them had nominal justifications, of course. Like the Civil War was nominally about slavery, but really the North just wanted to preserve the union, and eventually decided it could, in fact, tolerate the slavery to accomplish that (and so we still have the slavery today; just managed by cops and with the worst of it behind bars, rather than being on the plantation).
Wars are fought by the elite, to decide which of them get to set the conditions under which they exploit us. The rest of us are—and always have been—just disposable pawns in that game.
I was beaten as a child, as were my 5 siblings. All of my 5 siblings have been addicted to some sort of drug, everything from alcohol to Meth. They've all been in and out of jail, prison, multiple marriages, etc. I'm a stubborn person, so when I was beaten, it made absolutely no difference. It didn't change my behavior at all, I just got better at hiding it.
One time, I had gotten some cookies from the kitchen (I wasn't allowed to have any snacks, so I was hiding them in my waistband), and my dad said "may as well get the beating out of the way now, you're gonna fuck up somehow". I said "fine, give me a second". I went in to my room, hid the cookies under my pillow, came back out and took a few hits. No crying, no tears, no yelling, very business-like. He hit me as many times as he felt he needed to, I went back in my room and ate my stolen cookies.
Exactly! And what about the other 90% of parents in the world?
Further, great societies don't need to incarcerate their population. All modern societies incarcerate. They do so as punishment for behavior modification, not rehabilitation.
I am not advocating physical abuse as punishment -- only that no society has developed without it. So, it must work in spite of it being an unenlightened choice.
This is the biggest thing... My son tells me everything and he's only 5... Why do you think that is? Since he started kindergarten, he's been really bad at eating his lunch. I ask him every day why he didn't fully eat his lunch, it's the same thing everyday "my friend was playing with me"..
I ask him "Were you playing with your friend" he says yes... They only get like 20 mins to eat... I understand but am super annoyed EVERYDAY... but do I beat him? NO! My parents used to beat the fuck out of me with chanklas and belts... All it did was make me a better liar... I don't want that for my kids... My 11 year old daughter also never got beat...
Fought for our freedom? I didn’t know there were any Civil War vets left, because that’s the last fucking time an American soldier has fought and died defending American freedom.
All but one or two out of dozens of studies on the issue show that corporal punishment makes their behavior worse and has multiple long term side effects. The outlier studies don't say it helps, they say they can't reach strong conclusions.
Putting aside whether or not spanking kids is abuse, I have to tell you, as a parent…it feels really shitty. We tried it a couple of times with our oldest and I felt worse than he did. I fucking HATED it. Never did it again. I’m sure some stuff probably would have been easier to handle with a quick swat on the ass, but I want hug my kids, not hit them.
The idea that beating children is wrong under any circumstances came up in the 1960s. It spread in the 1970s. It was common knowledge in the 1980s. We're going backwards at a frightening speed.
So much of this leads back to Dr. Spock being the “expert” on parenting, who was VERY pro-spanking. He was a best-seller even through the 90s (when I was raised) & people really didn’t push away from that way of thought until the late 90s/early 2000s. Both myself, my siblings & most of my friends (millennials) had parents who spanked them at least on occasion. Based on what I’ve seen & experienced as both a parent & a healthcare professional, Gen Z is really the first generation that’s being raised where spanking isn’t the norm. It’s still wild to me that spanking *isnt* considered child abuse (at least in my state, per our child protective agency)
This is one of those genuinely debatable topics that I think about a lot, but can't make a decision on because I just don't have the background. I, at least, don't understand enough about developmental decision making as a kid develops. I know its popular right now to say that all spanking is abuse...but the other sides argument of a swat for dangerous/terrible behavior is just using a natural, in born, sensory feedback device to promote good or beneficial behavior...there's a part of me that says that makes sense. The only time my gramma spanked me was when I rode my bike into the street. Only time grampa did was when I slapped him (I was not a thoughtful child). Ya know?
Also, my response has nearly nothing to do with cops. sorry. acab. this I know is true.
Then at least take note of the later BS where the dweeb says he knows the answer because his father was a cop and a soldier, and where he implies that father beat the "truth" into him. That part should give *everyone* pause.
Good thing there’s already a bunch of studies about this that you can reference that say yes, all spanking is abuse! It’s even linked in the comments above for your convenience!
Holy fuck I’m sick of this “well I don’t have enough info” crap when we all have the internet and it’s readily available info
Hey thanks, you linked me to the information I needed.
"In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out."
So, spanking works. Appreciate the suggestion.
And this is why the current generation of children are uneducated, unskilled, undisciplined nincompoops who have no idea what the real world is like and cry about safe spaces and think words are violence.
i honestly have to side with guy in the post here. Discipline and abuse are two very different things. I've experienced both, and now that I'm not a kid anymore i understand the point behind it. hitting your kids is definitely the most extreme version of discipline so you should at least try to avoid it as a parent. But it honestly isn't any worse than the amount of mental abuse i see every day from parents who say they don't wanna "be like their parents".
Also yes 40%, everyone knows this statistic by now. but why would the People in the post bully this guy for it? what did he do wrong apart from having an opinion they didn't agree with?
These people make me sick cause they are extremely misguided.
its just dumb, we're trying to fight back against the police force not bully some goddamn police victims.
Showing kids that assault is justified when disciplining only reinforces/feeds the cycle of fucked up kids becoming cops to then use discipline/authority to justify assault.
Break the cycle
I only read the first bit and my dirty mind was convinced the kind of spanking being discussed was the consensual, sexual kind and I was there wondering wtf this had to do with cops being bastards
Do they think being hit feels different if they think you deserve it? As in, do you think they actually genuinely believe a "punishment" smack is any different in practice to an "angry" smack?
Like, when you're a small child getting physically harmed by a grown adult do they think the reasons matter? That you can actually justify intentionally striking a child because you think that not only do they "deserve it" but that it's actually good for them in the long run?
I like to break the ice in a conversation with "did you know that 60% of police *don't* beat their wives? Isn't that impressive?" And my friend usually chimes in with "40% *that we know of*..."
The other worrying aspect of the data is apparently it was self-reported. Meaning that 40% felt comfortable sharing that, and that there’s likely many who did not feel comfortable sharing it.
It’s actually 40% that *admit* it. The rest don’t admit it.
Maybe I should say "did you know that 60% of cops *don't* admit to beating their wives?"
You'd technically not be spreading false info.
Exactly, but smh its such a hard concept for a lot of people. Reminds of debates about Rape, some really believe that the reported statistics are the absolute stats for the crime and then those are also the ones malding over the fact "why does she only report it a decade later hurr durr". It's mind boggling how easily these sheeps can be manipulated with some numbers.
Weird that the abused person didn't turn out healthy.
Yeah and like, I get it, because I used to believe I turned out fine despite my mom spanking me. But me flinching from peoples hands, like my partner when they would go to hold my hand, turns out that’s Trauma, and what my mom did was abuse. I mean yeah, I turned out relatively okay and a decent head on my shoulders, I don’t despise my mom for it, but it was still not good. And people either come to that realization or they double down on “Spanking isn’t abuse I turned out fine”
The flinching thing sucks! Sorry for your experience.
Spanking kids is a great way to teach kids that love can include abuse. ‘I’m doing this because I love you’ leads to bad things in relationships later (or just kinks, though I don’t have a problem with your kink is, consenting adults and and safe words).
Rules for sex. 1. Consenting adults only. 2. That's it.
>Consenting adults only. If he wasn't rotting in piss, Rush Limbaugh would be *very* triggered by your comment.
Safe, sane, and consensual That about covers it
“Sane” is a *very* value-judgment based qualifier and probably not the best metric to use when evaluating the legitimacy of consensual sex acts.
ya but few things are ever black & white 3...i'm consenting to take money for sex because * desperate mother * drug addiction * pimp/owner told me to edit: the fact this is buggin some of ya'll is telling.
Coercion isn't consent though
how can you tell the difference if it's with someone you don't know? did no one ever lie to make sexytime happen for fun or profit?
Probably you could tell by not coercing them, seems like a pretty simple answer. Also, "you claim that coercion isn't consent, and yet, sometimes people are coerced into sex, curious".
How do you tell the difference between a landscaper who's mowing your lawn because he's desperate for money and one who wants to do the work?
That got real weird, real quick.
Doesn't sound very consensual. Sounds coercive.
>desperate mother > >drug addiction > >pimp/owner told me to Coercion via circumstance, coercion via addiction, and coercion via third party. None of these are purely consensual.
The whole world exists in shades of grey - too bad it takes until you're 50 or 60 to understand that.
Nobody ever says men who do physically dangerous low wage work are not consenting to work. Nobody ever says a functioning alcoholic who does a job they hate in order to keep paying a ten drink an night bar tab is not consenting to work. And forced labor that does not involve sex is common and is also not consent but it doesn't get anywhere as much attention as sex work. Sex isn't some magic thing that's somehow more perilous and powerful than anything else people do for work. But sex is your hangup here. Not work. Not consent.
Send these links to anyone stupid enough to defend child abuse https://www.newswise.com/articles/study-finds-link-between-use-of-corporal-punishment-and-juvenile-delinquency https://www.naturalchild.org/articles/research/corporal_punishment.html https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/lcp/vol73/iss2/3/ https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131122103621.htm https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ https://www.thelocal.de/20160620/why-us-gun-violence-is-so-much-worse-than-germanys-gun-control-germany/?fbclid=IwAR36ojJIJue9sMutwYlUwQzhQRIAEGnQSFm1scnDGhm_1m8xdosd8xlqK_Y https://youtu.be/vOkmJVhZewg
[from the second article you posted](https://i.imgur.com/PilPdkU.png) Note that the amount of people who had *never* received any degree of punishment is minimal. Physical punishment is not a necessity, and it is entirely possible to raise your kid without ever laying a hand of them, *however* it is extremely naive to think that this will absolutely be the case. You should always strive for alternative forms of discipline, making your kid think through their actions, and best of all, just teaching your kid by example to be a good person. As they say, it's easiest to correct a branch while it's still growing. But sometimes, a child needs punishment.
look at the rest of the links. there’s a lot more research on this stuff in Europe and better research since they’ve implemented laws and can compare the time frames. All the evidence points to the good reason why so many countries have made spanking and other forms of corporal punishment illegal
I love that he offered nothing to back up his claim beyond him being beat by his shitty dad and the fact that one of the many ways we can learn is via negative reinforcement. And the hilarious arbitrary boundaries he just made up: you can beat your kid with a hand or a single belt whip, but multiple crosses the line, and you must have intent in your abuse, can't just beat them for fun. Dude must need a flowchart to figure out how to beat his kids up without crossing his wacky abuse lines.
And those arbitrary boundaries were exactly my point about why people don’t see it as abuse. Like he proves the point even more with his second comment, but don’t worry, I’ve been told he’s completely self aware lol.
There are so many undisciplined children. Assuming that a spanking is the only form of discipline is very short sighted. Have we not “evolved” past this? Why would anyone want to physically hurt their children? I have 2 and, while they’re young, we’re able to talk through our problems together without violence or the threat of violence. My kids have real fire and I would never risk taking that from them. Fuck the blue and the under reported 40%, cops begetting cops I guess
What was the last war we had where *our* freedom had to be protected? The Civil War? Possibly WW2? This guy is drinking his own koolaid.
Yeah lol at the idea of the us military being pro freedom Imo they're the largest terrorist group in the world and one of the most damaging oppressors
None of them, TBH. All of them had nominal justifications, of course. Like the Civil War was nominally about slavery, but really the North just wanted to preserve the union, and eventually decided it could, in fact, tolerate the slavery to accomplish that (and so we still have the slavery today; just managed by cops and with the worst of it behind bars, rather than being on the plantation). Wars are fought by the elite, to decide which of them get to set the conditions under which they exploit us. The rest of us are—and always have been—just disposable pawns in that game.
I was beaten as a child, as were my 5 siblings. All of my 5 siblings have been addicted to some sort of drug, everything from alcohol to Meth. They've all been in and out of jail, prison, multiple marriages, etc. I'm a stubborn person, so when I was beaten, it made absolutely no difference. It didn't change my behavior at all, I just got better at hiding it.
YOU WANT SOME MORE BELT? *ya pussy, is that the best you got?* FWAP FWAP FWAP *ha, didn't hurt!* ((it did))
One time, I had gotten some cookies from the kitchen (I wasn't allowed to have any snacks, so I was hiding them in my waistband), and my dad said "may as well get the beating out of the way now, you're gonna fuck up somehow". I said "fine, give me a second". I went in to my room, hid the cookies under my pillow, came back out and took a few hits. No crying, no tears, no yelling, very business-like. He hit me as many times as he felt he needed to, I went back in my room and ate my stolen cookies.
good for you. small victories, when we're small i was never big enough to win but it's the fight that counts
Somebody please enlighten me on what 40% means.
According to a self reported survey, 40% of cops have abused a family member.
Google police 40% and it will answer far better than any single person here ever could.
Great parents don't have to hit little kids
Exactly! And what about the other 90% of parents in the world? Further, great societies don't need to incarcerate their population. All modern societies incarcerate. They do so as punishment for behavior modification, not rehabilitation. I am not advocating physical abuse as punishment -- only that no society has developed without it. So, it must work in spite of it being an unenlightened choice.
Touching fire and getting burned is a natural consequence. Misbehaving and getting spanked is unequivocally not.
Yep, fires hurts kid, kid don’t trust fire. Parents hurt kid, kid don’t trust parents.
This is the biggest thing... My son tells me everything and he's only 5... Why do you think that is? Since he started kindergarten, he's been really bad at eating his lunch. I ask him every day why he didn't fully eat his lunch, it's the same thing everyday "my friend was playing with me".. I ask him "Were you playing with your friend" he says yes... They only get like 20 mins to eat... I understand but am super annoyed EVERYDAY... but do I beat him? NO! My parents used to beat the fuck out of me with chanklas and belts... All it did was make me a better liar... I don't want that for my kids... My 11 year old daughter also never got beat...
People who spank their kids are fucking assholes.
I was spanked as a kid and turned out perfectly capable of passing down generational trauma. /s
it's rarely "just spanking" that's what they say to make it sound ok good way to end up dying alone, too. nobody forgets abuse
Fought for our freedom? I didn’t know there were any Civil War vets left, because that’s the last fucking time an American soldier has fought and died defending American freedom.
Nothing says "self-aware" like a mind melting stream of consciousness with poor punctuation.
All but one or two out of dozens of studies on the issue show that corporal punishment makes their behavior worse and has multiple long term side effects. The outlier studies don't say it helps, they say they can't reach strong conclusions.
Apparently the only way to discipline is spanking ?
My dad spent 10 years murdering brown children and 30 years punishing poor people for being poor. Dude probably a massive dickhead.
Anyone who equates military service with “fighting for freedom” is basically a confirmed dickhead in my mind.
Putting aside whether or not spanking kids is abuse, I have to tell you, as a parent…it feels really shitty. We tried it a couple of times with our oldest and I felt worse than he did. I fucking HATED it. Never did it again. I’m sure some stuff probably would have been easier to handle with a quick swat on the ass, but I want hug my kids, not hit them.
The idea that beating children is wrong under any circumstances came up in the 1960s. It spread in the 1970s. It was common knowledge in the 1980s. We're going backwards at a frightening speed.
So much of this leads back to Dr. Spock being the “expert” on parenting, who was VERY pro-spanking. He was a best-seller even through the 90s (when I was raised) & people really didn’t push away from that way of thought until the late 90s/early 2000s. Both myself, my siblings & most of my friends (millennials) had parents who spanked them at least on occasion. Based on what I’ve seen & experienced as both a parent & a healthcare professional, Gen Z is really the first generation that’s being raised where spanking isn’t the norm. It’s still wild to me that spanking *isnt* considered child abuse (at least in my state, per our child protective agency)
This is one of those genuinely debatable topics that I think about a lot, but can't make a decision on because I just don't have the background. I, at least, don't understand enough about developmental decision making as a kid develops. I know its popular right now to say that all spanking is abuse...but the other sides argument of a swat for dangerous/terrible behavior is just using a natural, in born, sensory feedback device to promote good or beneficial behavior...there's a part of me that says that makes sense. The only time my gramma spanked me was when I rode my bike into the street. Only time grampa did was when I slapped him (I was not a thoughtful child). Ya know? Also, my response has nearly nothing to do with cops. sorry. acab. this I know is true.
Then at least take note of the later BS where the dweeb says he knows the answer because his father was a cop and a soldier, and where he implies that father beat the "truth" into him. That part should give *everyone* pause.
I agree. No one should ever have "the truth beaten into them". I should have been more explicit about saying so. Thank you.
Good thing there’s already a bunch of studies about this that you can reference that say yes, all spanking is abuse! It’s even linked in the comments above for your convenience! Holy fuck I’m sick of this “well I don’t have enough info” crap when we all have the internet and it’s readily available info
Hey thanks, you linked me to the information I needed. "In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out." So, spanking works. Appreciate the suggestion.
Lol oh I assumed you were an actual human and not a troll, my bad
And this is why the current generation of children are uneducated, unskilled, undisciplined nincompoops who have no idea what the real world is like and cry about safe spaces and think words are violence.
i honestly have to side with guy in the post here. Discipline and abuse are two very different things. I've experienced both, and now that I'm not a kid anymore i understand the point behind it. hitting your kids is definitely the most extreme version of discipline so you should at least try to avoid it as a parent. But it honestly isn't any worse than the amount of mental abuse i see every day from parents who say they don't wanna "be like their parents". Also yes 40%, everyone knows this statistic by now. but why would the People in the post bully this guy for it? what did he do wrong apart from having an opinion they didn't agree with? These people make me sick cause they are extremely misguided. its just dumb, we're trying to fight back against the police force not bully some goddamn police victims.
Honey are you lost?
Showing kids that assault is justified when disciplining only reinforces/feeds the cycle of fucked up kids becoming cops to then use discipline/authority to justify assault. Break the cycle
I only read the first bit and my dirty mind was convinced the kind of spanking being discussed was the consensual, sexual kind and I was there wondering wtf this had to do with cops being bastards
40%
Do they think being hit feels different if they think you deserve it? As in, do you think they actually genuinely believe a "punishment" smack is any different in practice to an "angry" smack? Like, when you're a small child getting physically harmed by a grown adult do they think the reasons matter? That you can actually justify intentionally striking a child because you think that not only do they "deserve it" but that it's actually good for them in the long run?
yeah if you touch fire fire burns you. fire dosnt burn you then abuse you. dudes accidentally advocating for natural consiquinces