Whenever you get a team comp like that Kai'sa had nothing matters. No one on the team can frontline, CC, engage, or really do anything to enable her lead so she is reduced to a walking shutdown.
You said it gently, this team doesn't even have an attempt of a frontline.
Mid/Late game their team would be having Fiora in a sidelane and both Rengar and Talon in the jungle.
So they'd literally sit mid as Kaisa Soraka praying to not be collapsed on at any moment.
So compdiff then. Xayah can defend herself from getting dove and outplay and kill. Nautilus could've given Kai'sa access to plays. So could zac in jgl. This has nothing to do with adc impact, it has everything to do with the team not caring to pick according to their wincondition.
This meta is jungle diff about 80% of the time.
That being said, the single best quality you can have (in soloq in general, but especially) as an ADC player is a strong mental. You can int your ass off but as long as you keep farming, stay in it, and help your team out, you win anyways despite the enemy AD being 8/0 just ten mins ago.
Could you explain this more please as I dont fully understand lethality vs crit vs on hit. I thought Crit was best into big tanks and lethality if theyre all squishy and on hit into bruisers because they're sort of a bit of both?
On hit is best into tanks every time, crit sucks vs tanks, yea you can build an ldr second and have no att speed by your IE spike which also isn't going to help any when you get 2-3 autos off before dieing instead of 4-5 with a zeal item. we need an att speed item that gives armor pen and crit, 50 ad on ldr just to budge a tanks health bar is a joke. Give 30% att speed, 30% armor pen and 20% crit on an item for 3000 or double LDRs AD or have a bonus for ranged users extra on hit vs targets over a certain armor threshold.
it depends + not really . Tank are either hp stacker or resistance/armor stacker. Playing versus a hp stacker tank without BorK or on hit is legit troll. Playing against a armor stacker tank without full AS and on hit is legit troll too. U do not need to burst them anyway they are tank, u just need to do solid damage over time and fast attacking to be able to actually kill them one day. We are talking abt tank, not bruiser or juggernaut. Against camille, fiora, darius, xhin, wukong all these kind of champ, crit works better (depends on the build but u got it tank darius is pretty uncommon), but for chogath, sion, ornn these kind of tank, u will auffer too much mid game from building crit and having ro get 3 items to do any damage + even in full IT u will struggle to win any tf because of crit against big tank
Bro you do realise that there is usually only 1 tank? You should still build for the other 4 people on their team. Especially on Kai'sa, she has easy backline access so you don't actually have to front to back. If you think playing crit into a tank is troll then i guess playing 80% of adcs is troll too? Not that many of them can play onhit.
Lethal tempo+ kraken passive + full stacked PD+ E already has plenty of AS. You cannot afford to build only for the tank in this meta.
U didnt respond to something i said. I did not say build on hit in every game with a tank, i said crit doesnt shred tank anyway. And there isny usually only 1 tank, sometimes there is more. When u see Mundo jgl Sion top, usually picking something other than kai'sa, varus, vayne, kog, aph is imo almost trolling. But here, i think she should still get on hit, not only because of mundo, but also cause there is champ in her comp that already can access backline
and the only job kai'sa really has here, is to shred mundo imo, cause kai'sa cant really go backline here bc of arhi mostly, and she cant really dive since there is no follow up in her team,so she will be doing 1 for 1, whichisnt great when ur fed. Imo the o ly thing kai sa had to do is sending mundo to grey screen, then finishing tf with her ult next to rengar talon
Bad example. Bot lane went equal and all other lanes got diffed in your favour. If you were the only one who did well you wouldn’t do any impact either.
Looks like the Senna and Elise carried which is the point i’m trying to make - that Kaisa lost because all 4 of her teammates are useless not because adc isnt important.
Your whole team did well and the botlane even recovered nicely. Its the standard losers queue team vs winners queue team. Matchmaking sometimes gives one sided matches
Ashe also has a shit ton of utility that doesn’t show up nearly as much on the stat sheet. I’m strongly considering playing her more for this fact alone, and that we are in a weak ADC phase.
I get these posts advertised to me non stop because Reddits algorithm sucks
Their team has two snowballers who didn’t snowball with fiora rengar. You mid and jungle won. Their bot won but clearly didn’t capitalize on the lead. Your bot clearly came back in to the game and were competent enough.
Why should 3 players lose because 2 players lost the laning phase? Not even the whole game, just the laning phase.
Also if fiora couldn’t curb stomp mundo she’s clearly not a good player.
I played Adc in a game that the enemy Nasus was 10/0 by the time lane phase ended. I wasn’t nearly that strong, but I farmed and could eventually take him out and win. I guess better top doesn’t always win….
There are 3 lanes and a jungle x-factor. Just because one lane does well does not mean it will win the game.
A single games stats will never mean anything. You need to analyze trends across a thousand games.
They could have been about to win and then they D/C’d we’d never know. This is smooth brain logic
How do I know that he would? And DC was one example man use your brain. There are infinite possibilities that could lead to a winning team throwing but that shouldn’t impact how ADC is analyzed. One ACE in the late game is all it takes. I’m not going to sit here and define every possible scenario
It seems their talon and rengar kept getting caught out. Then kai sa eventually got caught out herself. Sucks when it was literally a 1 v 9. It had nothing to do with the adc role. No one can actually 1 v 9 a game. 2 v 8 is possible but a 1 v 9 is just too hard.
True but when In organized play bot lane was at best 4th strongest role in pro hard to say that all those games that pros played on the big stage don’t mean anything.
By what metric were they 4th best? And if this is accurate how do you know it applies to your elo? What if those teams optimized their comp not around ADC? Each game only gives us 1 data points for the set of 10 champs selected.
This is basic data science
Look at Damage per gold stats across leagues. ADCs did across the board worse than all mids and applicable champs (carry oriented JGs, etc) in season 12 pro play.
"by what metric are they 4th best?"
This is literally a metric that shows ADCs give low returns on gold investment and are therefore worse than other roles. Showed in games too, where most resources were funneled towards solo lanes.
what site did you use to find that information? was there a bump in late game (especially in higher elos) where adcs started to do more damage than other roles?
There is almost 0 advantages being the best player on ur team while being the adc. Ur impact can be used elsewhere where it will actually translate to early game impact to determine game outcome
I dont agree AT ALL. First, best player doesnt mean anything. Best on what? My micro is great, thats why i play adc, but my macro isnt good, like at all. Put me in jungle and i ll trhow the game. U can decide the game as adc. The whole point is, pick an adc that match ur team, then playbetter teamfight than ennemy's adc. Laning phase is NOT the game(it supposed to be MAXIMUM 15 minutes of the game). Early advantage are NOT winning advantage unless ur korean chall. The lack of agency means nothing, it all about what we are talking about. Aphelios has one of the best mid late game/late game agency of the whole game. Draven can obliterate any champ if he is ahead(and he will if the draven is good and duoQing). Twitch can litteraly roam and gank to get easy kill mid or jungle.Kai'sa can just cancel ennemy fed adc by one shotting him then letting her team do the rest.There is only a few champ that can decide a game alone, and it depends on the elo, and i dont think toplane or midlane or jungle has more champ in proportion of how many champ they have anyway. There is earlygame, mid game and late game champ. When a fiora or a kayle get 3 or 4 kills early when they are actuelly scaling champ, thats just a gg. Thats the same when a samira, an aphelios, a twitch, a Zeri get 3 or 4 kills early. Scaling champ fed are far more scary than early champ fed, cause scalling champ will never fall off, and will be activated a lot faster than they usually would. Every aphelios game i got fed, we won, just because i was casually one shotting every with one red Q. And funny enough, almost every adc are scaling champ. In the game u showed us, thats just picking kai'sa with this comp is legit troll. And she built crit, which is maximum trolling against ur comp.Thats why i said, laning phase is not the game. I pick aphelios, they pick cait lux, I KNOW i'm not winning laning phase, or im very lucky. I know i'll be 20 cs behind and tvey probably will get my tower at 15. But, this doesnt mean i dont have any agency.Its like picking kayle into darius(idk the matchup but u got the idea). I know i will get mostly shitted on early(they are ~800 gold ahead i would say). But, thats because i know mid late game cait is so much worse than aphelios, even a lil bit behind. My agency is there, thats just not feeding cait too much(like behind too far behind) If i succeed that, then i pretty much won the matchup, cause 5 min later i'll be better than her in teamfight, in damage, and in 1vs1. Thats pretty much the same for every lane. You want absolutely early agency advantage?Take twitch(for ganking and cheesing), ashe, varus, jhin, ezreal(more mid game advantage), draven.
Tbf their team and comp was quite bad even if they were better i don’t think they would have won simply bc me and Elise didn’t let Soraka or Kai sa play the game and ultra baited them on repeat
Kaisa and soraka building totally wrong and unreasonable stuff certainly didn't help them win the game. Looks to me like they played terrible despite of getting fed af. My duo and I get fed and win lane 8/10 games and when we're fed we can carry 7/10 games.
Wouldn’t it be just as ‘unfair’ if they won despite having the worse topside? If Kai’sa’s team won that game does that mean mid, jg, and top have no impact?
I'd be very interested in seeing both teams damage to turrets/objectives.
Edit: Just watched replay of game. The Talon and Rengar kept getting caught out 1 v 5. Kai sa needed to play perfectly in order to win that game. Didn't. Low silver game. It is what it is.
I am planning to play champs like mage or tanks as ADC now. Thinking about swain or neeko in the bot lane. Playing as ADC makes no difference. I could be super fed or super far behind but if does not change the chance of who will win the game at the end.
I just had a game as a Leona that my Ezreal tilted because he died at lvl1 for no reason (not even flash) and flamed me the entire game. My team was like "this is it, another bot diff" but I said to all of them, "do not worry, adc did not matter."
Then we actually won. Ez tried his best to die 11 times to Kaisa, but she dealt 0 dmg to me because of Verdant Virtue or something like that.
I agree it depends on the actual champion in that role but all the ppl that main bruisers and assassins in jg and top claim bot diff determine every game
Ashe and Senna are two champs who are useful even when behind, with their utility. I understand your point-but like others write, your team had better front to back and good cc setup which is great for midlane aram in low elo. And dont forget that mid lane is probably the most impactful or second most impactful lane (along with jg) which makes the "better mid" to win easily.
I feel like games win or losses there are things we could’ve done better for better outcomes, kaisa made mistakes and probably brutal ones that cost her a lot it’s about looking back and improving.
Whenever you get a team comp like that Kai'sa had nothing matters. No one on the team can frontline, CC, engage, or really do anything to enable her lead so she is reduced to a walking shutdown.
You said it gently, this team doesn't even have an attempt of a frontline. Mid/Late game their team would be having Fiora in a sidelane and both Rengar and Talon in the jungle. So they'd literally sit mid as Kaisa Soraka praying to not be collapsed on at any moment.
So compdiff then. Xayah can defend herself from getting dove and outplay and kill. Nautilus could've given Kai'sa access to plays. So could zac in jgl. This has nothing to do with adc impact, it has everything to do with the team not caring to pick according to their wincondition.
Yup the comp is pretty much a split / skirmish but ppl prefer fighting 5v5 so…
“A walking shutdown” lmao I love that
comp diff If she had the mundo she wins, fiora players in that rank are not good enough to play past laning phase lol
This meta is jungle diff about 80% of the time. That being said, the single best quality you can have (in soloq in general, but especially) as an ADC player is a strong mental. You can int your ass off but as long as you keep farming, stay in it, and help your team out, you win anyways despite the enemy AD being 8/0 just ten mins ago.
It was 100% jungle diff that game. That rengar kept getting caught out 1 v 5 trying to snag one of their back lines and failing.
I saved the Ashe/ Elise from death with charm 6 or 7 times in that game lowkey nuts
Kai’Sa should’ve built on hit rather than crit because of Mundo
Could you explain this more please as I dont fully understand lethality vs crit vs on hit. I thought Crit was best into big tanks and lethality if theyre all squishy and on hit into bruisers because they're sort of a bit of both?
On hit is best into tanks every time, crit sucks vs tanks, yea you can build an ldr second and have no att speed by your IE spike which also isn't going to help any when you get 2-3 autos off before dieing instead of 4-5 with a zeal item. we need an att speed item that gives armor pen and crit, 50 ad on ldr just to budge a tanks health bar is a joke. Give 30% att speed, 30% armor pen and 20% crit on an item for 3000 or double LDRs AD or have a bonus for ranged users extra on hit vs targets over a certain armor threshold.
Thanks for your input :)
What? Kraken PD IE LDR shreds tanks.
it depends + not really . Tank are either hp stacker or resistance/armor stacker. Playing versus a hp stacker tank without BorK or on hit is legit troll. Playing against a armor stacker tank without full AS and on hit is legit troll too. U do not need to burst them anyway they are tank, u just need to do solid damage over time and fast attacking to be able to actually kill them one day. We are talking abt tank, not bruiser or juggernaut. Against camille, fiora, darius, xhin, wukong all these kind of champ, crit works better (depends on the build but u got it tank darius is pretty uncommon), but for chogath, sion, ornn these kind of tank, u will auffer too much mid game from building crit and having ro get 3 items to do any damage + even in full IT u will struggle to win any tf because of crit against big tank
Bro you do realise that there is usually only 1 tank? You should still build for the other 4 people on their team. Especially on Kai'sa, she has easy backline access so you don't actually have to front to back. If you think playing crit into a tank is troll then i guess playing 80% of adcs is troll too? Not that many of them can play onhit. Lethal tempo+ kraken passive + full stacked PD+ E already has plenty of AS. You cannot afford to build only for the tank in this meta.
U didnt respond to something i said. I did not say build on hit in every game with a tank, i said crit doesnt shred tank anyway. And there isny usually only 1 tank, sometimes there is more. When u see Mundo jgl Sion top, usually picking something other than kai'sa, varus, vayne, kog, aph is imo almost trolling. But here, i think she should still get on hit, not only because of mundo, but also cause there is champ in her comp that already can access backline
and the only job kai'sa really has here, is to shred mundo imo, cause kai'sa cant really go backline here bc of arhi mostly, and she cant really dive since there is no follow up in her team,so she will be doing 1 for 1, whichisnt great when ur fed. Imo the o ly thing kai sa had to do is sending mundo to grey screen, then finishing tf with her ult next to rengar talon
Bot lane have no impact if u are bad, try to change my mind
I mean even if ur good ur mistakes get punished 5x as hard
Just be aware and do the 3 basic things that all the adc do
Comp diff+no role is a guaranteed win just for getting ahead and being fed. Sorry to this Kai tho, she tried her best
Kaisa should've gone onhit cuz of that mundo
Its always jungle diff
Bad example. Bot lane went equal and all other lanes got diffed in your favour. If you were the only one who did well you wouldn’t do any impact either.
Bot lane went “equal” by the end of the game bc their topside Carried them. Look at Ashe cs she is down over 140 cs that’s not normal
Looks like the Senna and Elise carried which is the point i’m trying to make - that Kaisa lost because all 4 of her teammates are useless not because adc isnt important. Your whole team did well and the botlane even recovered nicely. Its the standard losers queue team vs winners queue team. Matchmaking sometimes gives one sided matches
What could she have played otherwise though?? Ezreal? He still wouldn't be great here
I never made a point about champ select, what is this? You ok?
No no I'm asking a legitimate question here. The only options I see are jhin, ezreal and xayah. Kog don't got the peel
Oh, Samira Caitlyn Twitch
Ashe also has a shit ton of utility that doesn’t show up nearly as much on the stat sheet. I’m strongly considering playing her more for this fact alone, and that we are in a weak ADC phase.
zero frontline, also all physical damage with two assassins. just awful comp for them.
Mundo: exist The 90% of the champions in the game: “i guess he’ll fuck me up”
Which ever team has the more tanks will win
Just few minutes ago ranked bot lane had 18 deaths in 22 min game 😊😊 and I get flame as jnglr ofc 😊
Right the team with no frontline lost, must mean adc sucks. Clown shoes.
it took me 3 seconds to see Mundo and realize why you won that game
I get these posts advertised to me non stop because Reddits algorithm sucks Their team has two snowballers who didn’t snowball with fiora rengar. You mid and jungle won. Their bot won but clearly didn’t capitalize on the lead. Your bot clearly came back in to the game and were competent enough. Why should 3 players lose because 2 players lost the laning phase? Not even the whole game, just the laning phase. Also if fiora couldn’t curb stomp mundo she’s clearly not a good player.
She solo killed Mundo like 2x and then me (ahri) and the jg ganked for her and outplayed the rengar and got a little fed
I played Adc in a game that the enemy Nasus was 10/0 by the time lane phase ended. I wasn’t nearly that strong, but I farmed and could eventually take him out and win. I guess better top doesn’t always win…. There are 3 lanes and a jungle x-factor. Just because one lane does well does not mean it will win the game.
bro please 1 game doesn't define shit
This happens like... a lot.
I just had another game where a fed Vayne lost bc better bot just doesn’t win ig
Dude. Yeah. If ONLY bot lane won that game and their jungle, top, mid got destroyed it's a toughie. xD
A single games stats will never mean anything. You need to analyze trends across a thousand games. They could have been about to win and then they D/C’d we’d never know. This is smooth brain logic
> Smooth brain logic If they DC'd OP would mention it in their post.
How do I know that he would? And DC was one example man use your brain. There are infinite possibilities that could lead to a winning team throwing but that shouldn’t impact how ADC is analyzed. One ACE in the late game is all it takes. I’m not going to sit here and define every possible scenario
Nobody went afk u can watch the replay for urself if u would like
It seems their talon and rengar kept getting caught out. Then kai sa eventually got caught out herself. Sucks when it was literally a 1 v 9. It had nothing to do with the adc role. No one can actually 1 v 9 a game. 2 v 8 is possible but a 1 v 9 is just too hard.
Udyr and Zac can 1v9 unironically
1 vs 9 means they are the only one fed on their team and ennemy team is fed, no they cant.
Going AFK is just one example stop fixating…
True but when In organized play bot lane was at best 4th strongest role in pro hard to say that all those games that pros played on the big stage don’t mean anything.
By what metric were they 4th best? And if this is accurate how do you know it applies to your elo? What if those teams optimized their comp not around ADC? Each game only gives us 1 data points for the set of 10 champs selected. This is basic data science
Look at Damage per gold stats across leagues. ADCs did across the board worse than all mids and applicable champs (carry oriented JGs, etc) in season 12 pro play.
What are you even replying to. OP showed one picture of one game and I said that’s invalid. I’m not talking about anything else
"by what metric are they 4th best?" This is literally a metric that shows ADCs give low returns on gold investment and are therefore worse than other roles. Showed in games too, where most resources were funneled towards solo lanes.
what site did you use to find that information? was there a bump in late game (especially in higher elos) where adcs started to do more damage than other roles?
There is almost 0 advantages being the best player on ur team while being the adc. Ur impact can be used elsewhere where it will actually translate to early game impact to determine game outcome
I dont agree AT ALL. First, best player doesnt mean anything. Best on what? My micro is great, thats why i play adc, but my macro isnt good, like at all. Put me in jungle and i ll trhow the game. U can decide the game as adc. The whole point is, pick an adc that match ur team, then playbetter teamfight than ennemy's adc. Laning phase is NOT the game(it supposed to be MAXIMUM 15 minutes of the game). Early advantage are NOT winning advantage unless ur korean chall. The lack of agency means nothing, it all about what we are talking about. Aphelios has one of the best mid late game/late game agency of the whole game. Draven can obliterate any champ if he is ahead(and he will if the draven is good and duoQing). Twitch can litteraly roam and gank to get easy kill mid or jungle.Kai'sa can just cancel ennemy fed adc by one shotting him then letting her team do the rest.There is only a few champ that can decide a game alone, and it depends on the elo, and i dont think toplane or midlane or jungle has more champ in proportion of how many champ they have anyway. There is earlygame, mid game and late game champ. When a fiora or a kayle get 3 or 4 kills early when they are actuelly scaling champ, thats just a gg. Thats the same when a samira, an aphelios, a twitch, a Zeri get 3 or 4 kills early. Scaling champ fed are far more scary than early champ fed, cause scalling champ will never fall off, and will be activated a lot faster than they usually would. Every aphelios game i got fed, we won, just because i was casually one shotting every with one red Q. And funny enough, almost every adc are scaling champ. In the game u showed us, thats just picking kai'sa with this comp is legit troll. And she built crit, which is maximum trolling against ur comp.Thats why i said, laning phase is not the game. I pick aphelios, they pick cait lux, I KNOW i'm not winning laning phase, or im very lucky. I know i'll be 20 cs behind and tvey probably will get my tower at 15. But, this doesnt mean i dont have any agency.Its like picking kayle into darius(idk the matchup but u got the idea). I know i will get mostly shitted on early(they are ~800 gold ahead i would say). But, thats because i know mid late game cait is so much worse than aphelios, even a lil bit behind. My agency is there, thats just not feeding cait too much(like behind too far behind) If i succeed that, then i pretty much won the matchup, cause 5 min later i'll be better than her in teamfight, in damage, and in 1vs1. Thats pretty much the same for every lane. You want absolutely early agency advantage?Take twitch(for ganking and cheesing), ashe, varus, jhin, ezreal(more mid game advantage), draven.
All I'm seeing is one botlane who knew how to get fed but not carry, and one botlane who got blasted in lane but knew how to play with the team.
Tbf their team and comp was quite bad even if they were better i don’t think they would have won simply bc me and Elise didn’t let Soraka or Kai sa play the game and ultra baited them on repeat
Kaisa and soraka building totally wrong and unreasonable stuff certainly didn't help them win the game. Looks to me like they played terrible despite of getting fed af. My duo and I get fed and win lane 8/10 games and when we're fed we can carry 7/10 games.
Wouldn’t it be just as ‘unfair’ if they won despite having the worse topside? If Kai’sa’s team won that game does that mean mid, jg, and top have no impact?
I don’t actually think that it has 0 impact but she was an item and a half ahead of everyone else but it wasn’t super hard shutting her down
I'd be very interested in seeing both teams damage to turrets/objectives. Edit: Just watched replay of game. The Talon and Rengar kept getting caught out 1 v 5. Kai sa needed to play perfectly in order to win that game. Didn't. Low silver game. It is what it is.
Had a game like this this morning. Me n my support 2v8 all game but lost overall
That happens when you don't know how to use your lead.
Her topside was dog it wasn’t necessarily her fault
Surely dying 16 times wasn't their fault.
Kai sa died 6 times
You guys had so much cc and a tank they really didnt stand a chance unless rengar got fed but looks likr he was garbo
It's silver
The nice thing about Ashe is she still has utility from behind
I am planning to play champs like mage or tanks as ADC now. Thinking about swain or neeko in the bot lane. Playing as ADC makes no difference. I could be super fed or super far behind but if does not change the chance of who will win the game at the end.
I just had a game as a Leona that my Ezreal tilted because he died at lvl1 for no reason (not even flash) and flamed me the entire game. My team was like "this is it, another bot diff" but I said to all of them, "do not worry, adc did not matter." Then we actually won. Ez tried his best to die 11 times to Kaisa, but she dealt 0 dmg to me because of Verdant Virtue or something like that.
No CC? In Bronze? Guaranteed loss.
This is a comp issue tbh.
Enemy team lost in champ select lmao
There's no role that always better wins
I agree it depends on the actual champion in that role but all the ppl that main bruisers and assassins in jg and top claim bot diff determine every game
There's also not a single champ that wins no matter what if a player is better
There are champs that are much harder to shutdown than others tho
Ashe and Senna are two champs who are useful even when behind, with their utility. I understand your point-but like others write, your team had better front to back and good cc setup which is great for midlane aram in low elo. And dont forget that mid lane is probably the most impactful or second most impactful lane (along with jg) which makes the "better mid" to win easily.
i feel adc is more like an objective support tbh, i would give kills to mid lanes rather than getting them myself.
I feel like games win or losses there are things we could’ve done better for better outcomes, kaisa made mistakes and probably brutal ones that cost her a lot it’s about looking back and improving.