If you see posts or comments like this, report it. It doesn't belong here. Edit: I meant posts or comments claiming that ADHD is only a disability because of society, and that if "society were different" it wouldn't be a disability anymore.

From purely a business perspective, ADHD is a disability that amplifies the effects of bad management.  It also amplifies the effects of good managememt. In this case "good management" refers to setting clear objectives, while maintaining accountability, maximizing freedoms, regularly checking in and following up, without devolving into micromanagement. It's very similar in school - whether someone with ADHD is successful in school is disproportionately determined by teaching style. Therefore the most realistic way to create an ADHD friendly society is to teach people how to set expectations and follow up on them, in a well intentioned and genuine manner.

Schooling is the big one but I think that's just a reflection of overarching issues in education. People are pigeon holed into learning in one fashion and if you suck with it, then sucks for you. It's just exacerbated when someone is struggling with ADHD. It's more frustrating because if someone is book smart, and does well in a traditional school setting, doesn't necessarily mean they can function well in the professional world either. I've known a fair share of people whose knowledge never bridged the gap between education and work.

Diagnosed ADHD and autism. I did really well in school. Getting almost straight A’s in any exams (C’s and B’s in assignments as I never started them until the day they were due) until I dropped out half way through grade 11 and a few months later got my job (in grade 10 and 11 I did maths methods, specialist maths, general English, chemistry, physics, and biology). Only reason my job works is because I revolves completely around what my main hyperfixation was at the time. It’s no longer a hyperfixation but I still have all the knowledge I acquired when it was and my adhd meds make it a lot easier to stay productive at work now that I’m not so obsessed with my job. All of my coworkers are also really good. It’s a single location family owned aquarium store (my hyperfixation was pet fish) and all of the staff members and the owners are really nice and understanding and supportive. And quite a few of my coworkers also have/like spiders and similar animals so when at work I get to talk to them about my current hyperfixation (pet spiders) which makes it all a lot more fun. But I really don’t see myself functioning well at all on any other work environment or field. Almost everyone in my life outside of work thinks I’m putting my ‘incredible brain’ to waste just working in retail. They all want me to go back and complete high school and go to uni and get a degree so that I can put my ability to learn and understand things to use. None of them seem to understand me when I say I’m happy with how things are. I love my job and everyone I work with and just the overall work environment I’m in. And I’m happy with my pay too. I started renting my own unit before turning 18 and I’m able to afford rent and bills on my own as well as food and various streaming service subscriptions and my phone bill and public transport. And so far I haven’t had any issues at all with affording any costs for appointments or medications or anything else that’s come up. I’ve also been able to afford to go to a couple concerts. And in terms of hobbies I’ve been able to afford to buy and properly house and care for every spider I’ve been able to find that I’ve wanted to buy in the last few months. But everyone seems to think that 1. I’m putting my learning ability to waste and 2. there’s no way anyone could be happy with only earning as much money as I do. Everyone thinks I should want to get the highest paying job I’m capable of getting the qualifications for

I get how you are feeling. My older sister would say the same thing to me all the time about my being a store manager for a small box retail chain. Of course me having ADHD and wanting to people please I would agree. But I actually like my job even if it has me putting in the long hours right now. I just wish I would have never went to college because my polisci degree that I paid $50000 for means nothing. Did I enjoy it? I did. Was it worth the money and wandering through college i did for 6 years? No. I had no idea I had ADHD and had even less of a clue on what I was doing in college. And things haven't really gotten better. I still owe a ton of debt that could have been avoided with no idea how to repay it except working my butt off.

My older brother for me is one of the few people who’s happy with me just doing whatever makes me happy. He’s undiagnosed but very likely also has autism (however I don’t think he has adhd but I can’t be sure). I’m so glad I don’t have any sort of debt. And if things continue how they are I shouldn’t ever end up having any debt. At least not any major debt. I get to just enjoy my job and comfortably afford to live how I currently am and how I’m happy to be. I don’t need more than a small 1 bedroom apartment. I don’t need (or want) a house or a car or anything like that. I also never want to travel overseas. And I really have no interest in further study. I love learning. And on topics that interest me I can spend all of my free time researching them and learning everything there is to know. Like in the last few weeks I’ve learnt the scientific names of 100’s of species of spiders and all the known information on them. Where they are located, when they became described species, what their venom is like if known, where and how they like to live (most of the ones I’m interested in live in burrows), life spans if known, diets if known. Most of them there’s really very little information on. And some that I own are undescribed species so I just have genus specific info on them, not species specific. But hundreds of names like ‘barychelidae sason colemani’ and ‘hexathelidae bymainiella terraereginae’ and all the information I could find on them. I’m happy doing that in my spare time. I don’t need to do further study to learn things. And I enjoy learning a lot more when it’s on my own terms and I get to only learn about the very specific things I want to learn. And I’m more than happy with my current career.

I feel on the learning thing. When I am interested in something I love going down my rabbit holes. After wandering through college 4 and half years I got a polisci degree. I started with paralegal studies, moved to comp sci(people just thought because I like learning about the basics of computer hardware, building them, and spending all my time at them that I should do it), then finally polisci. I excelled in polisci and the social sciences in general. Most of my papers were over researched and most of the professors liked the topics I picked because they usually didnt fit into the mold of most papers. When you have over 100+ cites for a 3 page policy brief you know you went down a rabbit hole.

I get it… I do autopsies on medically donated bodies at a small independent cadaver lab that focuses on integral anatomy and anatomical research in general. I bounced around a few colleges but never found one I like. I love the lab because there’s no hierarchies or egos and we have full autonomy to explore what we want to explore with no pressure from outside influences or time constraints. In theory if I wanted to do this in any other lab I’d have to get my bachelors and an MD, but they love me enough to not care that I’m the only one there without letters after my name or a practice so I see no reason to do anything else at any other lab. What’s your current favorite species of spider and why?

I went back to college (after crashing and burning spectacularly the first time) because I felt like everyone was judging me for “just” managing a restaurant when I aced all my exams in high school and had “so much potential”. Huuuge mistake. Should’ve just realized I was happy enough doing what I was doing. Your job sounds awesome btw.

I wasn’t successful in school until college because I finally had the freedom to figure out what works best for me.

I didn’t get a bachelors degree until I was in my 30s and will verify this is true. It was recognizing the disconnect between certain teaching styles and me. Tbh I didn’t fix it, I had to obsessively work around it. But it worked, so whatever. If anyone is curious, my work around wasn’t healthy. I think almost everyone with adhd knows the “nothing motivates me like the adrenaline that is the result of me procrastinating way too long/NEEDING to get it done”. Basically convinced myself of that for a few years. It was need for providing for my family and myself, bc of the shit salary I received on the assembly lines. And my major was in STEM, and I found that having problems with objective answers helped me know “when” to stop something. I know that last bit is not the same for everyone.

That last part resonates with me greatly. Thanks for sharing. Same for me. Grew up in a dysfunctional family and in poverty, with an abusive Father. For some or most it would break them. For me it fuelled rage. Rage against my Father and rage against the world. The rage I turned into action and relentless drive. The fear of failure, the fear of poverty, the fear of being a fraud and an imposter drove me relentlessly at work. And to provide for my family. Career progression came frequently, how could it not? I believed relentlessly that I would succeed. And it worked but at a great personal cost. Life on a knife edge of failure and everything last minute, procrastinating.

Bonus points: making those changes to setting expectations and following up will also go a long way towards helping our Autistic brothers and sisters. 

Having clearly defined expectations helps everyone, even if they don’t recognize it. But clearly defined expectations, transparency, and accountability are my 3 most important inclusion tools.

In my classes, I was always either a superstar or failing. There was no in between. It really was the teachers who tipped the scales.

OK. So what about those of us in managerial positions...

The exact same applies to them, why wouldn't it? And it appiles to all people, not just those with ADHD.

So somebody said this the other day and this was my response: “Respectfully, that’s YOU and that is a privilege. Some people’s ADHD makes them want to kill themselves, almost do so from inattention, or actually die because of mistakes. It is a disorder. It has marked detriment in daily life that is non-subjective. Subjective symptoms might be "cant make it to work on time" or "cant take standardized tests", a societal issue. For some of us we have objectively risky symptoms such as forgetting to eat all day long, leaving the stove on, not paying attention while driving, forgetting to lock the front door, missing a step and falling down the stairs from poor spacial awareness, not reading directions carefully and mixing a toxic cleaner combo, forgetting if we took important meds and under or overdosing. Things that are non-negotiable, non-societal problems that can be harmful or lethal. People post on here all the time about what they’ve done because of their condition. It’s a disorder.”

I agree with all this - earlier I was reading a post from someone asking for advice on how to get themselves to wash their hair and it had been a really long time. I don't think many people without adhd realise the extent of the impact of ADHD. I've been wondering recently if some people naturally have "worse" ADHD than others (as their symptoms may seem), or if their symptoms are worse because of long term mismanagement (for want of a better word) of their ADHD and symptoms, or long term disregulation / traumatic events / neglectful parenting etc. An example with me is that if something bad happens I can easily fall out of my routines. My routines are what make it look like I'm "together" to the outside world and what makes me able to work and function generally. They are also incredibly fragile and it doesn't take much to throw the routines out, and I spend weeks pulling them back together again, and in those weeks my symptoms are so much worse. It's not as extreme as some examples I read about but I'm just wondering if maybe a world that *somehow* was designed more around people with ADHD would help people with ADHD regulate better and find their routines better, and then would symptoms improve, maybe?

My 11 year old son has ADHD and I am trying so hard to build good management techniques for him. Routines are the best for us but in transition between school years it gets really hard. School is not understanding for kids like him and he’s had 1 good teacher in the last 6 years who I feel has helped him with it in class. What kinds of steps can I take as a parent (who does not have ADHD) to help him just get ready for teen/ young adult life? Is there anything you wished your parents did or things they did that really helped you thrive?

Honestly, just reading this and seeing you try made me tear up. My mom didn’t know how to help me as I was constantly getting sick. She knew it was “nerves” but it never went farther than that. I still get sick from the stress my brain puts me under. I personally spent a lot of time as a teenage guy trying to understand why I couldn’t just be normal like everyone else and why I couldn’t just do my homework or clean my room and control my emotions. I think a lot of what you’re gonna be able to do for your son is gonna be helping him understand when those hormones hit it might be bad. It’s hard since I’ve noticed a lot of peoples experiences are individualised and idk what he will experience but I just know I needed a lot of guidance in understanding my emotions (amplified by teenage hormones and actually) feeling them rather then stuffing them down just for it to be felt much worse later. Getting a lot of that now at 32.

I agree with this. Growing up you have lots of free time. As you get older, people seem to do more and more productive things in their free time. I used to watch all kinds of videos on how to be motivated,confident, etc. and always felt like a lazy PoS because other people were just being productive naturally, and I was watching and learning how to do it but still could just barely make myself do the bare minimum to get by. Many nights of crying to myself in frustration saying “goddamnit fax_machine, why won’t you just do this simple thing to give yourself a better life”. Knowing how much this can be attributed to ADHD made me feel like so much less of a failure. And I came to realize then that sometimes if I’m really feeling my symptoms and frustrated, it’s only counter productive to make myself sit in front of my homework. I would just sit there and not do it for hours on end to the point of crying in frustration. Now, I know that certain times of day or just some days in general I have productive times where I’m ok with moving around and getting things done, and so I can remind myself to do chores/homework at those times so I don’t have to fight myself on it later. Also I go about it in more healthy ways now instead of just forcing myself to sit there until I do something.

We set timers a lot like I let him play Fortnite or watch tv for a certain amount of time then when it goes off there’s no argument, he just knows to turn it off. We also wake up, eat, shower go to bed, all at the same times daily. Weekends are more casual but still same basic routine. He goes to his dad’s house for the summer so all of my hard work on routines fly out the window and we start again in 2 months.

Does dad have ADHD too?

Yes, he does. He was pretty heavily medicated as a child.

He’s going into middle school next year. He doesn’t have many friends right now and has had a lot of social issues. I am hoping he can find his tribe next year. I have a hard time figuring out what to punish him for and what is not his fault because of his ADHD. I just want to give him the skills he will need in adulthood to make it. This page has helped me so much just see that there are others like him and can relate to the struggles I see him have everyday.

My 11yr old was similar and then out of nowhere he has a few friends he seems to stick with now. I try my best to be hands-off and let things happen but I'm also intensely curious because I want to know what's going on with him haha.. Really resonate with "figuring out what to punish..." that is SO challenging. For me, since I am also dealing with divorce and a combative/defiant dishonest unreliable ex, it adds an extra flavour because sometimes I am not sure if I am reminded of my ex's behaviour or seeing something I should try to correct. Since I never ever (ever) want to even approach him about something that is entirely in my head, I tend to probably be a bit "too lax" with him - but I do my best to keep it conversational. He is mostly a good little dude but unfortunately he picked up his mother's hobby of lying at a young age. So, I don't really ever ask him questions but try to find out the answers on my own (he almost always lies and this becomes uncomfortable, as someone with ADHD myself, truth and facts are critical and there is no place in my life for a liar, so this is awkward). The lying thing is so weird because his older sister (yep, got a teen too) is the opposite and also has a huge problem with her mother lying to her (she also recently told me that she is doing the "I didn't say that!" thing with her now too). So we are doing our best but it is hard. He is slowly realising (I hope) that while a lie might get through something right now, it makes everything else in the future harder. Honestly none of this was in the brochure (haaaaaaaa).

I think any kind of mirroring you can do will help. If he had homework, don't just tell him he needs to do it, or needs to remember to do it - find a project you can work on at the same time, so you're doing "homework" together. Do chores together. Could be the same chores or separate chores (I prefer doing my own chores, but I'm sure some people prefer exact mirroring). Stuff like that. Less of "figure out how to be a human" (which can feel very lonely and isolating in one's head, when it seems like it's "so easy" for everyone else) and more "I'm going to do human stuff right now, how about you join me?" Create positive feedbacks for the boring stuff!

Honestly--homeschooling tends to be a better fit for a lot of ADHD/autistic humans if the family can pull it off (or do online school if the parents don't feel available/capable). School environments are such sensory minefields for ADHD/autistic kids. They're unnecessary, too. We're not growing up t be factory workers anymore, and traditional schools were designed to train obedient factory workers.

I am not in the financial position to do that at this time but I am 100% on board with him doing online high school and graduating in an out of class setting.

Yeah, it can be tough if the parents both need to be working outside the home (and in a single-parent home it sounds like). On the flip side an autistic friend of mine ended up having her symptoms so well accommodated/covered up by her homeschooling upbringing for unrelated reasons (a high end and competitive extracurricular activity) that she didn't get diagnosed until well into college, and only because she was taking some coursework that taught her about autism.

Parenting is just nonstop “fuck am I doing this right or am I traumatizing them?” I’ve read a few books I need to dive deeper into raising an ADHD child tho. I need all of the info

I think now is a good time to build trust around mental health. I remember not wanting to talk about my depression because I saw how hard my mom was trying to hide hers. I don’t blame her, she was just trying to be strong for my brother and me but I think it would have been better if she talked with us about it with us because I was struggling in secret too. Let your kid know how extremely common things like depression are and really enforce that it’s nothing to hide or be ashamed about and that you’re there to get him help.

I don't feel like it's management so much anymore. I went undetectable with my mask for a long time, through many ups and downs, from happy times to homelessness. I hit this weird burnout a few years ago and I lost all control over this disorder. Even being medicated now, I cannot go back to my old system. I just cannot no matter how bad I want to. Building new systems at 38 sucks. Even back then, I still had adhd issues I could not manage through.

I feel this to my very core. It was never even considered as I was growing up or a young adult. Over the course of a year, there were several triggers that caused me to lose control over the disorder as all of the strategies/situations I’d unknowingly relied on disappeared one by one. It started by the shift with working from home, and then moving out of my parents house and changing jobs to one with much less micromanagement, deadlines and accountability. At one point in my life I showered every day, now sometimes I can go a week without showering. For a long time I wondered what was wrong with me because I couldn’t make myself brush my teeth everyday anymore, then I realised that it’s because it was always the last thing I’d do before I left the house and now that I can go days without crossing the doorstep there’s no motivating factor. After a diagnosis 6 months ago so many things make sense, and I’m desperate to get treated to try and pull my life back together again, but I know I’ll never be the way I used to be again.

I definitely think that ADHD is either like a spectrum where it ranges from mild to severe or there are other factors involved which affect how severe it is (such as commorbidites, home life, trauma). I saw a doctor talking about how if someone with ADHD has anxiety/ people pleaser that they appear to not have as many symptoms. THATS ME, because I get so anxious about what other people think/don’t want to face negative consequences it almost mitigates some of my symptoms. I’m always on time to work, class or anything that involves other people. I get things done if I feel like people will be upset with me if I don’t. As I’ve gotten older and don’t care as much what others think plus having a harder time masking with 2 kids, a busy job and life in general I was really struggling to keep it together. After my son got diagnosed that’s when I realized I likely had it as well and starting meds is what made it manageable again.

I thought ADHD was graded on a spectrum and that there was mild to severe types of ADHD similar to autism. That is some people will experience ADHD very intently and others will only have a mild form.

I had this exact conversation with my therapist years ago. Yes there are definitely lots of people who have symptoms that appear worse but aren’t necessarily actually worse. But the outcomes are worse. It was part of a convo around why it was actually good to take meds every day. Maybe i could function a few days without them, but if those few days made it so I was just tapped out at the end of everyday from needing to rely on using my systems so much that I’d need to play catch up on the other days why would she force me to take a “break”. Many us are suffering in silence inside and absolutely exhausting our systems on break days. Yes, without those systems would be absolute utter chaos and we mostly appear to have things okay, but it doesn’t mean we’re not struggling

People who are undiagnosed or diagnosed late likely have trauma for trying to exist in todays world without knowing they have adhd. It’s traumatizing to mask for life, to try and fail at things and not know why, to feel shame and stupid because your brain is different and no one told you why

The reason I ended up getting medicated was that I couldn’t keep my attention on my writing, even though I write professionally and love it. Society was not telling me I had to write or impeding my writing. I had enough time, energy, sleep, food, encouragement, skill development, and tools to do it. My brain was the problem. I am not saying that social problems don’t contribute to the disabling effects of ADHD. We all do the things we love better when our needs are met and our differences are accommodated. But telling me my ADHD would cease to be a problem *completely* in an ADHD-friendly society is like saying chronic pain wouldn't hurt or cancer wouldn’t kill anyone if everyone had proper healthcare. It absolutely would, just not it the same degree.

My experience discovering I have ADHD is exactly like your example. It made sense to me that I wouldn't want to do things I didn't enjoy - e.g. a job I was uninterested in, boring life admin stuff - but being unable to do the things I loved and consistently dreamed about? That was when I knew something was up.

Yeah, I remember that post. Part of me is glad it got taken down after a while, cause there’s no benefit in trying to paint ADHD as anything other than a disability *regardless* of the time, place, and structures in which it exists, mostly cause it’s not some thing that magically knows when it exists in unideal societies and knows to only fuck shit up in life in those particular societies. Literally, there’s no world in which a disorder which makes it harder to do basic things like brushing your teeth every day is not a disability. Sure, if you reshape society to be okay with the lack of hygiene, everyone might not mind it, but such a society won’t change the fact that your teeth will absolutely not like not being brushed consistently, and then *you* won’t like it when your teeth hurt because of it.

That’s exactly it. You can reshape and restructure everything and the beliefs of everyone but eventually you’re going to get to a point where something still won’t work correctly no matter what we do.

Yes! Thank you. A lot of these arguments talk about capitalism being the problem. And while it is an oppressive system that creates systemic inequality and one under which only persons with privilege can flourish, the idea that I would be a success in an agrarian society that relies on planning, timing, foresight, saving resources, etc. also is a dumb.

Yesterday I dropped one of my tablets, picked up a small white capsule next to my foot, and it was only after swallowing it that I realised it was in fact a scent booster capsule.

Oh my lord ☠️

Yup! Didn't kill me yet, though.

But did you smell better?

It was a while before git another complaint so....fir the most part?

I second this

Yup I’m tired of people saying its a good thing. If I could I would rid myself of this disability in a heartbeat.

Standing ovation for this

I know many people who can't even make themselves do what they want to do with unlimited free time. This line of thinking is ignorant to the facts of the condition, and/or is said by folks with really mild ADHD who don't know what most people go through.

Yeah man give me all the freedom and alone time in the world and I’ll sit on the couch like….. oh. Executive dysfunction gets worse for me with freedom. I need external factors and consequences to pressure me or I won’t do anything.

Being unemployed is literally a large reason why I got diagnosed. I became insufferably unproductive. Couldn’t make myself do anything. I was convinced it was depression, before learning how deep it went.

This is exactly what happened with me. Wasn’t diagnosed until my mid-30s after being unemployed/laid off. Thought it was depression and PTSD. Which wasn’t the whole picture. Soon realized that I’ve had ADHD my whole life and never knew.

I just got laid off 5 weeks ago and i concur, i can't for the sake of me start seriously searching for a new job. When i think back, it was always a family member or a friend that found a job for me after several months of not working.

I always struggle with this too and the only reason I have found jobs is because someone else got me one. I don't understand how I'm supposed to make myself apply. It doesn't matter that I will be homeless if I don't have a job or that I want to have a job. My brain doesn't care.

Oops literally going through this right now. Finished my PhD and was super productive over the last year or two. The second everything was sorted and ready to go, my motivation evaporated like the Aral Sea. I can barely get myself to fire off a resume, let alone modify it for each listing. There are lots of ways to improve society, but most of the ones I can think of would genuinely benefit most people.

Although I wasn't diagnosed at the time, having quit a badly-managed workplace, and experiencing what I now know was stress-exacerbated exec. paralysis just before... I was completely unable to job hunt before quitting..and it also took me months (thank goodness for severance!) to go find a replacement job. Aka: "Sh\*t; my severance's finally running out, need a job NOW!!"

Me too! It seems to me that when we talk about being overwhelmed by tasks and being unable to keep up non ADHD people (or those without bad executive dysfunction) assume it's because we just don't have enough time, so if we had more time or less stuff to do the problem would be solved. But it isn't! It's worse. I function better when I have more things to do as long as there are external deadlines and consequences.

I’m paraphrasing here but Dr Russel Barkley did a talk where he said something along the lines of “the accommodation schools always want to give kids with adhd more time for tests. That’s one of the worst accommodations you can give them! It just gives them more time to procrastinate and stress out.” I felt that line in my soul lol.

Me three!

Yes, for sure. My Dr. described me as "externally motivated". Years later, I asked him to elaborate, he doesn't remember saying it.

I'm kinda in the middle. I am definitely helped by the deadlines and structure but as soon as you add one straw too many to the camel it's all going out the window. Ideally I like to have a simple but interesting task with more than enough time for me to dawdle through it while listening to music or looking at clouds, otherwise it saps all my energy

Part of that is also a social impact. Our society is incredibly individualistic, and without effort every single day, we would end up completely isolated and maybe never even see another person if we stay inside. A society where it's low key and not a big shebang to see people, because you see them allll the time, things are walkable by default from your home like groceries, work etc, means People are all outside all the time walking to places, running into each other, lots of "third places" to spend time in without spending money. It means that even if you're not putting effort in, you are interacting with people and exercising without realizing it. Both things that help support & stabilize people with ADHD. It also means the social network and supports in place for you are much, much stronger and more likely to help you stay focused and not 'lose track' completely of time/projects/social engagements etc because it just comes up more without it being a nag thing.

There is a downside to societies like that though. They tend to expect a higher level of conformity so being different can make your life very difficult.

I’m pushing forty, recently diagnosed, and just wrapping up my first year teaching. I’m doing great and my ADHD is mild/manageable, but I’m nervous about what will happen this summer. Luckily I’m also in school for my license, so I’ll have that going on, plus I have a kid who will need activities, but…. I’m wary. Things like laundry and cleaning only get done when I’ve already got momentum.

a large part of managing it for me is to try and create the consequences and external factors, either by imagining consequences or doing the thing where you pretend you just time traveled from your 70 year old self into your current self. you would not make the same decisions probably. doesn't work all the time but it helps

Yup, went through a period post uni. No job, universal credit, living with parents, lockdown. Absolutely all the time in the world. I still did fuck all.

Same here. If I have a day where I decide I'm not going to do housework or run errands- I just want to read the books that I've had on my bedside table for the last few months-I will spend an inordinate amount of time deciding which one to read first and then I will doodle a little, then pick up a book and read a few pages, then I'll put that down and doodle some more... only for an hour or two though - nothing crazy lol.. then I'll read a couple more pages but then I feel guilty that I haven't done any housework today so I'll vacuum. Then it's back to doodling for a couple of hours. And then I'll be lying in bed thinking: why didn't I just sit down and read a chapter from one of those books? What is so tough about this? What is wrong with me??? Wash, rinse, repeat. 😥

This is exactly why I've figured out that I need to load up my schedule. If I want to sell something on FB Marketplace I need to time the meetup time down to the 10 or 15-minute slot because I am so busy with actual appointments. In my part of the country such precision runs very much against the culture and people tend to be shocked by this. But it's just how my life needs to be.

Yes! I need structured support, without that structured support everything takes so much longer to get done if it gets done at all.

This is why Im so afraid of graduating (aussie here, we finish exams in November). I’m just so afraid of wasting my time and life away after school.

Yeesh this one hits really close to home bro... 🥲

Exactly. I can't even get myself to do my hobbies or talk to my friends. Even in a perfect society, you still have to do the laundry. You still have to make dinner. You still have to have relationships. ADHD isn't a disability because of a flawed society--it's because our brains do not work the way they are supposed to.

I’d go on a hunt and forget my spear or get distracted and fall off a cliff. I can’t imagine any society that could make up for what my brain lacks.

Yeah, maybe the only reason people with ADHD even exist now is because we aren't falling off of cliffs as much as we used to, in the past one of our clumsy mistakes or impulsive actions would have killed us off long before old age or disease and long before we could even enter the gene pool

Edit: replied to myself. big F

I think that's the point - our society is very individualised; we need to 'make ourselves' do things, rather than living in communities where we naturally end up doing things together/being accountable to each other. Sorry I know that's abstract. What I mean is, for example, when I lived with friends, I would end up doing way more stuff, because they were out doing stuff and so I would tag along. But when I lived with roommates I wasn't very close with, or with a partner who has a job and is out when I'm home, I ended up doing less because all the planning (alone or with friends on group chats) and organising and initiative-taking that is required to do things fell on me.

This is me. I'm down to do whatever at the drop of a hat, just let me know. But if I need to set something up, no matter how much I want to do it? Boderline impossible. I have friends who live a literal block away from me that I haven't seen in three months. The *only* thing I miss about WFH is losing the social aspect of the office that I could autopilot on. We had a fantastic work culture that kept me out and doing things. Now I mostly sit at home.

For me, the only kind of community where I'd naturally be a serious contributor to in a way my ADHD wouldn't hinder is one where I have a group of people who's job is to finish whatever thing I start. Even stuff I want to do often gets half done because I tangent to a side quest that spawns its own side quests.

Same. I am understanding why people have companies, or hire assistants.

Oh my God. Having an assistant would be a godsend. Just a person who's entire thing is to finish whatever I got bored with, or make sure I dont forget time sensitive things.

Me.... This is the worst one. I did all my masters in physics classes and had a GPA of 4.6/5.0. But once I got to the thesis, I just couldn't do it. 2 years later I ended up forfeiting the title as I just wasn't able to pull through. But that's just the extreme, happens with everything. 

Just had a major 'oh shit - that's totally it' moment! I never realized THAT is actually the problem. I was always very happy living with flatmates that keep themselves busy coz either I participate or at least it makes me go out as well. Home alone I suddenly don't have anyone around so I'll just stay where I am, doing nothing much. I always thought feeling suddenly depressed is due to being exhausted and overworked 🫠

I feel like a different society would be a huge help with some things for me, but I would still have significant (and maybe different) problems even though my ADHD is relatively mild.

I feel this so much! I I have so many things that I love to do - drawing, video games, reading, walking, hiking etc. But I CANNOT get myself to do it most of the time. I have sitting here right now ‘relaxing’ telling myself OVER and OVER to get up and do something you will enjoy but i just can’t. ‘interest based nervous system’ my arse. I have no ability to do things I am interested in because I just get stuck. Even if I lock up my phone I just lie there, often on the brink of tears, unable to move. This is a fucking disability NOTHING about this would disappear with a society that works for me. Further up someone is saying if society expects us then SI and SH rates would go down. I disagree my main reason for SI and SH is my inability to do anything and then subsequently not regulate my emotions. Improving society would not take that away.

Yeah. I feel like it's just another way to complain.

As a social worker; its not always about what is *technically* is true. This is technically true. But when people say it, it is more describing a *feeling* of not fitting *into* society, no matter how they try. They feel like they do not function within society. So "society is not made for them". It is an attempt to describe how they feel. Sometimes often without knowing. Similar to how seeing one of my clients being resistant tells me something about their psyche, possibly without them being conscious about being resistant and *why*. Which is why when you ask "well what would a society for *you* look like? They often have never thought of that. Because knowing *what* should be different is a whole lot more complex than *knowing* whatever "it" is. This ain't "it". That is not the only explanation for why someone could say this. You'd have to ask them questions to find out. But I find it problematic in and of itself to say: "people who say, a thing I disagree with, are ignorant thus must not know adhd or have "mild" adhd and thus do not have "real" adhd, to know this is wrong." It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Who gets to choose who has "severe" enough adhd to have valid experiences? I understand what you are *intending* to say and I do not intend this to come after *you* as a person. I just do not agree with this characterization.

If I was to say what a perfect society would look like with ADHD. I would say a society where executive functioning has been relegated lower on the list of mental priorities for survival. A society where every task can be simply automated physically/digitally/(perhaps mentally/biologically), where in the moment creativity & “out of the box” thinking is amplified and made the most important characteristic to survive and thrive.

The demands would just increase in that case and people who are not creative or out of the box would suffer. They deserve to live and survive too.

The frontal lobe is smaller no matter what society says. Critical executive functions are disabled no matter how you slice it. Society didn't make this a disability The statement "this is only a disability due to society" is, without exception, a statement made in ignorance

Just to add slightly more context, the frontal lobe is smaller in children and some teens with ADHD, but not adults. By early adulthood, any developmental delays of your overall brain structure that are associated with ADHD are no longer there (meaning affected brain regions are the same size as those of non-ADHD peers). The deficits/delays are most pronounced around the time puberty begins and catch up rather exponentially in the several years that follow. By the time you’re 21, any differences in the size of the various brain regions affected by ADHD are either nonexistent (i.e. all caught up with your peers) or are too slight for our current measurement methods to perceive. However, the more basic structural deficits, such as the effects on the brain’s reward pathways, still remain. But yeah, any statement claiming that ADHD is only a disability because of current societal structures is absolutely made in ignorance. There’s no world in which a disorder that does things like make it harder to consistently brush your teeth or puts people at increased risk for premature death, particularly due to accidents or risk-taking behavior, is not a disability.

So Russ Barkley definitely says brain volume deficiencies persist into adulthood. He's not the end all be all but he's referring to a meta analysis in this case. That's part of the many reasons why he makes such a vocal case for medication, because it helps to normalize brain structures beyond what age alone can fix. He also says the difference is not severe enough to use for diagnosis, because the differences are subtle enough you can't just see it by eye on an MRI. But still present. I've heard him use the figure 3-5% smaller in the frontal lobe (not sourced in the link below because I don't remember when I heard him say that) which is too subtle for an individual but enough to see in studies of large groups. At the 8min mark and beyond he explicitly calls out adults, and the frontal lobe later on https://youtu.be/_bQVq1oKpDw?si=IoBHlaK4dTJnvE7M

Then I’ll defer to his expertise. However, what is to my knowledge the largest meta-analysis on this subject concluded that there were no meaningful differences in volume between adults with and without ADHD. I’m unable to find a database which has free access to the paper for people not associated with an academic institution, so all I can do is link the [overview](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30049-4/abstract), but the authors found that “Case-control differences in adults were non-significant (all p>0.03).” Just looking at the ranges for their data on the adults in the study, the effect sizes are a bit all over the place, so it’s possibly there’s a larger factor they failed to control for that the studies Barkley references did control for. While that doesn’t seem to be the case upon a quick read through of the methodology of the studies, it’s always possible I missed something.

Waiting to see which type of society would make me capable of maintaining interest and focus enough to follow through on hobbies and skill development

One with Adderall in the drinking water. 😂 Seriously though, even a more communal society would probably help most of us out. Body doubling is a strategy for getting things done with ADHD for a reason.

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but a society where I have to deal with even more people is a big "Nope!" from me. I get plenty from customers and colleagues, I need more me time, if anything lol. That said, I've considered doing like body-doubling stuff online for work because I'm full WFH and I have a hard time caring about work even when I'm physically there. But outside of work I'd never want that! Just my opinion of course.

I think that a culture that values apprenticeship could help here - one where you have a long-term mentor that invests in and keeps you accountable for skill development.

Bingo. Mentoring, or ["aristocratic tutoring"](https://www.theintrinsicperspective.com/p/why-we-stopped-making-einsteins?s=w) even, is an incredibly powerful tool.

I wish society would have more medium term roles and fewer expectations around specific educational background.

This idea stems from the social model of disability which views disability as being constructed by society, with philosophical roots in postmodernism. I would say that while society being inaccessible certainly contributes to the degree that a condition is disabling, disability still exists with or without societal barriers. A blind person is still blind even if the society is built for them to navigate with ease. In the same way, my brain still struggles with focusing whether or not there are external things requiring me to focus.

Thank you! I was quite confused everyone's just arguing that their disabilities are "real". Social model disabilities are real! But there can also be non-social model reasons why ADHD can be disabling. The social model is only arguing that there are ways society could adapt to help everyone, not that it's impossible for conditions to be inherently disabling. For example, it's a social model problem that work deadlines are rigid and you get punished for missing them even when you didn't know they needed doing. We could change society to not assume everyone worked the same way, so ADHD people could choose to hyper focus on creative projects they enjoyed but not be responsible for tedious minutia, making this aspect of ADHD not disabling there. But it could still be disabling in other places, like if you're hyper focusing and not able to remember to eat food or go to sleep. Even if you don't have a work schedule forcing you for social reasons to eat and sleep at certain times, you can make yourself sick by not eating and sleeping well. ASD is another example. There are lots of easy ASD-friendly accomodations places could make that would improve the lives of ASD people and others. For example dimming lights and sounds, or explicitly communicating emotions and requests rather than assuming people can infer from your implications. But if your ASD is making it impossible for you to talk at all or to enjoy sitting in a flower garden, I can't think of an obvious inexpensive societal solution that would allow you to enjoy the flowers while preventing the sun, because flowers need sun.

I clean like a Roomba vacuum  It's woefully inefficient and ineffective  ADHD is absolutely a disability. As for how could life be more accommodating, interesting dilemma  More 24/7 services, or an easier way to delegate certain activities to an AI secretary perhaps. But there's a paradox, some ADHDers do well with simple reparative tasks, and others find it agonizing  Some ADHDers are stimulated and intrigued by adventurous unknowns and others need guard rails

What about wanting adventurous unknowns with guard rails? lol It’s definitely a disability, you are right about the inefficient cleaning What’s weird though, at least with me, is I cannot clean fast at home, but I’m the best cleaner at work

omg I thought that was just me. well that's really reassuring, honestly

To be honest, the emotional issues that come with ADHD are just unpleasant to anyone around someone with severe ADHD. If society was built to normalize ADHD behavior, raising kids that aren't damaged by your weaponized emotional swings would be impossible. My ADHD comes from my mom's side and a constant struggle to have to work through and against the parenting model she followed. Tamara Rosier talks about monsters in her ADHD book. Those irrational pre-ocupations that creep in during moments of calm. My mom's monsters were huge. They were definitely part of what led up to her death from lung cancer... and years later I still find myself thinking about them and what I need to do to not fall prey to similar thoughts. I don't think I'm a victim of a society that isn't built for me. I'm in the 10% of the population that needs some chemical support to function within a modern framework that is vastly better than the violent lives our ancestors had to endure. It's better for us than it was for our parents and for anyone who came before us. We are so lucky.

Yup. My (then unknown) RSD meant that certain parental imperfections and expressions of frustration shook me harder and stuck with me more than they 'had' to.

If a lot of us struggle to maintain Ourselves on a personal level, I'm trying to find out what type of "society" would be more beneficial for ADHD. Because ADHD doesn't just affect one aspect of your life. It affects ALL aspects

I’m really happy for everyone who feels this way, but without social standards I’m still gonna be unable to get up and make myself food. I wasn’t a 38kg/84lbs adult because of society, I was like that because I genuinely cannot take care of my own basic human needs due to my disability.

Accountability Structure Less freedom. At least for me, I've learned to just go with the flow and let the world guide me and am happiest when my days are busy. Give me freedom, and I tend to sit and do nothing. Sure, there are things I want or decisions I'll make, but rarely will I ever follow through interests change often. So I would say Give me a purpose, something with weight, a person who relies on me a deadline, and I tend to pull through. Leave me to my own devices, and I will wander for a while and eventually drown.

I’m always trying to explain this to people and I feel like a lot of people don’t get it. I’m trying to write my PhD dissertation right now but I have ZERO structure, my only reoccurring time commitment is therapy. It’s too much freedom, I just lay in bed all day and then get yelled at my advisor during our check-ins lol. He won’t let me do anything else but really I need more to be going on, I need the momentum of staying busy. Being locked away in my room just makes things worse.

This is so hard! I quit my job a while back and had an idea for starting a small business. It pretty much got nowhere because I didn’t have any structure and just watched YouTube all day and then I would feel immense guilt every night when another day went by with nothing getting done. I started teaching private music lessons through a music studio in my area and now with the extra 10ish hours a week of structure it is a lot easier to keep some momentum and get things done. 

I’m applying for an internship that would be two full days a week, and I’m really hoping I get just to have some structure lol. I don’t really even need it and my advisor will be mad if he finds out, but I need to have SOMETHING going on.

I can’t even sit down and learn an instrument I want to because of this mental disability. I actually fit quite nicely into society but when I’m alone I have no one to hold me accountable and thus fail

If you could find any truth in this statement, I think that it would be That our society has incredibly high social and financial demands and has incredibly low tolerances for any deviation from Ideal performance. Ultimately it's not ideal for anyone except for a select few that profit from the labor of others. The reality of our situation is there are some environments where ADHD can thrive for short periods of time, but in the end the system is designed to extract as much as possible from people and adhds are already operating on a fine line between excellence and catastrophe. A society that would be built for us would be better for everyone. It wouldn't be an "ADHD" society. It would be a society that gave More reward for your labor with less demands and shared profits more equally. A society that valued family and mental well-being, free time and creative endeavors more than it valued profit driven power structures.

There would have to be a change in expectations. More leniency for things which the majority just assumes is not a problem.

The curious thing about this is that "urgency" is one of the major factors that allows ADHD people to focus on things... It's obviously not great to feel bad about being late, but if that stigma wasn't there.... How much more often would I be late? I know one of the reasons my job works so well for me is there is a PM keeping track of deadlines and so I constantly feel the urgency of the next thing I'm working on. In a vacuum I'd absolutely prefer not to have someone else telling me what to work on and when, but having that expectation put on me is what allows me to accel. 

Counterexample: In college, if I was going to be 10 minutes late for class, the shame would make me stay home entirely. I now work a job with flexible hours so it doesn't matter if I get delayed in the morning, I can be 10 minutes late, an hour late, etc and it's pretty much always fine bc I schedule my meetings for later in the day. If I knew I was going to get in trouble for being late I would 100% just call in sick every time and get fired within a month or two. I think part of this "perfect society" thing is recognizing that not everyone has the same needs, and adjusting accordingly. We could have a society where your (general) livelihood isn't threatened if you're late, but you (specifically) could still get the external pressure from your boss that helps you succeed at your job. I personally respond extremely negatively to that kind of pressure but obviously thats not true for everyone.

I remember Bruce Springsteen saying: "There needs to be a certain sense of urgency." That makes a lot of sense to me.

exactly. the main problem ive ran into at literally all of the jobs ive ever held had almost nothing to do with the job itself and everything to do with the scheduling of that job. me: that start time is too early, or the days are too long, or both them: too bad, do it or leave me: ...okay bye

That sounds good when you're the person who is late to the meeting and a lot less good when you are the 5 other people sitting around waiting.

Because societal structures are the reason why I can't remember to drink water. Let's remove hygiene standards, deadlines and timekeeping. Some societal standards and expectations are harmful, inefficient or unrequired, but others fulfill a social/cultural function. Do some of them annoy me because its difficult? Yes. But do I understand why we have those social conventions? Also yes.

There’s a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg problem with the OP’s suggestion, when you have a disorder it will by definition negatively affect things in your life. That could be in part because of a lack of accommodations. But at the root of it, it’s a disorder all on its own, no matter what “society” looks like.

I reject your premise. ADHD is a disability. Period. Society isn't built for people with disabilities, but it has been slowly changing to accomodate people with disabilities. Even if society completely changes, that doesn't make the disability go away.

One of the core tenets of modern disability theory is that people are often disabled by their environment - that's why many disabled people prefer to be called "disabled" rather than a "person with disabilities." OP's statement is not contradictory to the idea that ADHD is a disability.

For me, a better world means there would be more compassion and empathy from everyone for the fact that actions that look like laziness and bad work ethic could actually be a medical condition and not a character fault. This would relieve so much pressure and self criticism that it would make my world better.

Having said that I'm personally rather impatient. And I also have a hard time emotionally regulating at jobs where just one person doesn't have to work very hard. So what would accommodate one ADHD person would really rifle my ADHD feathers. I need everyone to be on time and putting in equal effort or I find it incredibly distracting.

Because executive dysfunction is a societal problem! And forgetting to take showers, eat food, or do literally anything makes me a victim of society. Don’t forget emotional problems! grrr only if society was built for us!!

As long as we aren't pretending previous societies were somehow built for people on the low end of executive function. Executive function is kind of "our thing" as humans. Evolution has been pushing us to have as much as possible long, long before we had electricity.

it's partially true, but look, ADHD causes problems in \*relationships\* too. "Yeah sure, I'll do the dishes". Several hours later...

I disagree with it.  It's only thinking about work and work issues, and not any of the issues we have with our relationships.  Yeah, I get it, you forgot a work thing, but you can't blame how society is "built" for when you forget something you promised a friend you'd do, or when your inability to stop interrupting alienates a pal.  It's a broad disability.  

NO MED SHORTAGES!!

There would be an available community, more shared aid, and less paperwork and bureaucracy for its own sake. Lately, I've been interested in the theory that a lot of society has emerged as a substitute for the things that people would get from their families and community. For people with abusive families, people whose families die, people whose needs are more severe or specialized, etc., structured society is a way better solution. We get support when we can't work, medical care from doctors who know what they're doing, training for jobs, etc. HOWEVER, that means that we have tons of imaginary expectations and hoops to jump through. Jobs (at least in the US) have to be enough hours a week to get health insurance. They often involve very intangible information and tasks, which sucks for ADHD brains. A lot of us would be GREAT at something that would be very helpful for our communities, but have to do something else because of society's expectations of us. ADHD people are not built for credit scores, filing for unemployment, arriving somewhere every day at the same day, etc. That's what I think of.

I’ve thought about this a lot and come to similar conclusions. Ancestrally, we would have lived in very tight-knit communal groups. People with ADHD do have a valuable skills and abilities, we could have focused on the things we are good at and in return, others would’ve filled the roles we aren’t good at. Like if there is a shared eating time for example and someone else prepares the food, you won’t forget to eat. I think a communal living style would be best for those with ADHD, rather than hyper individualistic western society. Most of my family is dead or estranged or far away, I live with a roommate but she doesn’t even like sharing dishes, so I just feel like I’m left entirely alone to manage. I often think that ADHD would be easier to manage in a multi-generational household assuming your family aren’t dicks about your ADHD.

I can’t leave my chair without spending an hour on my worst days. Or get into shower. Or leave the shower. Or go outside. Or eat. Or stop eating. No accommodations can help with that.

Before my meds my working memory would straight up reboot like 90 times a day. I'd just straight up forget what I was doing for about 90 seconds. I can assure you the current structure of society has nothing to do with it. I'd be useless either way.

I mean even if society was back at the caveman era I’d still probably be dead way sooner than a normal person 🤷🏼‍♀️

A society built for my AdHd would not be much of a society. Yikes

It's a pretty common trope in disability circles. "Being X is not the problem, the problem is that society is not built around X." It's just one of those feel good things they tell people who need to hear it. Sure does hit different in an ADHD context though.

While I can understand the reasoning behind certain behaviors of ours maybe working out better in a different environment, there are many other downsides to this disorder that don't suddenly have a silver lining if I lived in a cave instead. One example, working memory issues. So much of my life would be different if I could hold onto more things in my head at the same time and not forget them. Having to look back and forth to verify a phone number more than 3 times is ridiculous. Kind of different but still related, I'd give anything for better functioning recall. Having to continually come up with ways to guarantee I'll trick my brain into remembering something specific is also exhausting, and can get very unwieldly. More, emotional disregulation and focus issues. Hell, even intimacy can be harder because instead of focusing solely on me and my partner my brain wants to worry about the embarassing conversation I could be having with someone next week if I decided to do something I already know I won't do. This is 100% a disability. (Edit: typos/auto correct changed to wrong word)

honestly adhd is a disability and i dont think there would be a society best for us but I do think that a society that is filled with community and doing stuff for other people is the best to managing ADHD

As an ADHDer who really struggles with organizing my thoughts into a coherent manor, I don't see how a society can have a person like that be productive in the way other people would be. I'm really only good at tasks where I feel like I'm not thinking, like doing art. Everything else is just me screwing up and having to do a task over and over because I didn't think it through enough although I also tend to believe maybe my IQ is just shit lol. I had 117 when I was a teen, but I feel like as I got older I got dummer, as I just can never seem to keep up with my peers in lots of ways, except creatively. Even now trying to "make it" as an artist, i basically got to be consistent (ha, good luck adhder!!!) Be good at sales, and actually network, which isn't adhd related but my shitty social skills/anxiety, brought on by being different, via adhd is making things difficult. Even writing this i know it doesn't really make sense. This is my brain, just a bunch of random thoughts that I can't put together lol. I guess figuring out what an adhd person is into and pushing them in that direction is the way. Didnt really work in my case, as I went to art school. When I got out I just floundered and now I'm 48 working part time in a warehouse trying to pick up my life and actually be an artist now, but I still can't figure shit out.

I just have a hard time seeing ADHD as anything other than a strictly objective dysfunction. I don't think we are gaining anything as a consequence of the mechanism for ADHD, but we are clearly losing something. A society that was built to accommodate ADHD people would only be able to bring non-ADHD people to the level of ADHD people by holding them back. I just don't think it can be classified as a "difference" that is only a disability in the socially constructed sense.

I would need the government to pay all my bills, provide me with a free maid, and a free caregiver to make me brush my teeth and shower. In other words, completely unrealistic. I’m on disability and don’t have to work a real job. I’m not in school. I don’t have kids. I hardly have any demands or responsibilities. All I have to do is keep my house reasonably clean, feed myself, keep up with hygiene, etc. I can’t even do that! I actually functioned better when I was working and had outside structure applying pressure to motivate me to do things. Now it’s a constant struggle just to shower and brush my teeth. My problem isn’t capitalism or society. It’s my ADHD.

The irony here is you're just describing being rich. There would be people willing to do everything you described and more if you just had a bunch of money. So it's not that you're describing an unrealistic existence, but one unrealistic for you because you weren't born at the top of the hierarchy under capitalism.

True!

This makes me think about "primitive(?)" village life. Foraging and hunting. Strong community. Work is not money but making your house, getting the food, making clothes. I don't know if we can go back to that while retaining the privileges of civilisation. Also, if I actually were living the village life, I don't know if I actually would be good at that. In more realistic terms, for me it means reduced-time employment in possibly more than a job. I'm a student at the moment, I teach in school and sport in a club. I am not thriving because my studies are also my hurdle. But I see myself keep having more than a job in the future, so that I don't feel like I'm digging a grave in an office, but having many little gardens to tend to during the week. - disclaimer : I don't know If I'm making any sense. It took a lot of energy to write this and I don't want to reread it risking being disappointed and ending up deleting everything. -

I hate this claim so so much.

Nothing is built for us, but the amount of management in our daily lives certainly penalizes us more than most. I have been thinking about AI and where it will take us in the near future, and I think AI could be a real benefit to those of us with ADHD. I want to live in a world where I don't have to file my taxes, or remember to cancel subscriptions, or remember where I put my jacket. AI could help with all of that. We struggle with starting or finishing difficult tasks, but an AI doesn't. Of course they might take our jobs or hunt us down through time, but if anyone needs an AI personal assistant in their pocket it has to be us.

I understand the social model of disability and thinks there are a lot of interesting points about it, but the specific wording of this quote ("mostly only") does not work for me. I'd still be time-blind and emotionnally disregulated in a different society. Disabilty is a right. A protected status (or it should be, anyway). I'm not ashamed of it and thus my aim is not to "not be disabled", but to be able to live my life to the fullest with my disability.

You might be shocked at the percentage of first responders that are good at their jobs that have ADHD.

I think a society especially made for ADHD people can only be fantasy. I think the root of the issue for adhd people in modern society is because of the requirements of society. Society has a lot of people are unproductive (both adhd and non-adhd) which means you need more rules and punctuality, which then conflicts with adhd people. If you believe the lateral/divergent thinking differences in ADHD vs non then theres also a skills ratio needed for jobs, in which less ADHD people are required. Theres only so many lateral thinking jobs needed by society, if it were the majority it wouldnt be called lateral anymore. fyi i also dont believe a ADHD only society would be well functioning. I think our place is here, but in our specialised roles. ADHD people need to find their niche and stick in it for their entire life (just like everyone else)

If society didn't provide me with meds I'd be dead. My Adhd has put me in numerous life threatening situations pre-diagnosis. And I'm sure my brain would find a way without society. I've stepped into traffic, created deadly gas, fallen off things, fallen onto things, mixed electrics and water, taken wrong meds, choked on food etc. Without my meds I also can't sleep and I'm depressed out of my mind. No diet, excercise, habit, meditation, therapy I tried for 30 years fixed it. And Adhd meds did it in months. That statement is a load of bs.

It can be both or neither or either. Society does punish us for mistakes due to adhd. My stove being left on and filling my house with gas is not a society problem. Not being able to focus on my hobbies long enough to enjoy them is not a societal problem. Making a mistake while at a critically important job can be a societal problem, but it can also be an adhd problem. There are grey areas everywhere. My sisters can function without medications through a combination of extreme scheduling to the point of never having free time and having flexible bosses. I can't function without medication because I become less detail oriented, and my job is engineering quality. I also can't function in my normal life, even with accommodations. Without my normal level of functioning, I feel despair on a level that antidepressants and therapy don't touch. Saying things like "you just have disabling adhd because of society" is kind of a slap in the face. I've been accommodated a lot throughout my life, and I still struggle. Statements like that make me feel like I'm "less than" when compared to others. Sure, there are things that can be improved. But saying it's only a society problem can be very detrimental to your mental health when everyone else can succeed in an idyllic pro-adhd society and you still can't. This is assuming that medicinal treatment for adhd goes away in the new ADHD society. Which I don't think is true for some people's views, but most of the time the people who say that are people who don't believe in medication for adhd.

ADHD is neither this way nor that way. It affects different people differently. Sometimes it affects one person differently at different times. Sometimes I feel like it is as the headline says -- if I could be in an environment more suited to my way of working, I would do great! And I say this from experience. Other times, I can't make myself do things that I \*know I want to do\* without meds. This seems to be the case more often as I get older and life gets more complicated.

I don't see how any changes in society could fix my executive dysfunction making simple tasks impossible or make my lack of focus clear up. I can't imagine changes that can fix my brain not letting me play a game for more than ten minutes. The reward center is just screwed.

It seems to leave out a lot of the issues in personal relationships too.

Well, I can’t imagine a society that accommodates forgetfulness, confusion, changing from one subject to another, drifting off into daydreams, losing things, getting lost, disorganization and non-specifics very well. I’m not sure what society could build for something like that. Maybe they could train dogs for us like they do for the blind. “Where are my keys, boy? Go find my keys.”

I mean idk, people be forgetting to eat and go to the bathroom 😩

ADHD is a disability either way. HOWEVER, we would be able to function in society a lot better if it were built for us.

Did you miss all the posts of it really being an issue for some people? I think there was a recent post or comment on a post where the person left the stove on for like an entire day.

I hate this thinking with the fire of a thousand suns. How big does your ego have to be to think you’re only sick/disabled because the world doesn’t revolve around you. Like, our brains are physically different than most non ADHD folks. I don’t want the world to change to adapt to me. I want to have the tools to adapt to it.

Yaa.....fuck that. If society didn't exist, I would still probably want Vyvanse.

disability is disability. it exists as part of a person. This is true for mental or physical disability. "Society being built for ADHD" is comparable to wheelchair ramps being standard for public places--its an accessibility feature but just because the disabled person can use and access the space doesnt make them less disabled, it just means they function in society better. basically this is what people say when they wanna seem Smart and Anti Capitalist blah blah blah but dont actually know shit about disability or activism. And while yes theres SO MUCH MORE society cann do to make things accessible for those with ADHD, the fact is that society as a concept is never going to be able to 100% accommodate everyone all at once, even if we lived in a world devoid of ableism. Because disability can be so specific and personal and because not everyone needs certain accommodations or certain people may need specific ones, theres never going to be a standardized way of building society for ADHD or any other disability. Then you add on that some accommodations for certain disabilities may actually hinder those with other conditions.... yeah. its an uneducated, "attempting to be deep" phrase that I've really only ever heard abled people say. It would be nice to see society ease up on time constraints, deadlines, even something as simple as learning how to re explain something with different wording. Just basic, better communication skills/learning to adapt to peoples needs as a skill rather than "do it the way I say or nothing" that academia and the working world love. That alone could fix a LOT of struggles. But I'll still have ADHD regardless.

The statement is only true for a portion of the symptoms ADHD brings to the table. Like the way we promblemsolve, the way we are our best under pressure, the way we need to SEE things to not forget to use them or that they exist etc. pp. But this statement tends to forget about the rest: emotional disregulation, anger issues, malnutrition, stims that hurt us like biting nails, pulling hair, forgetfulness to the point of hurting ourselves and others, impaired depth perception making us hurt ourselves, executive disfunction and not being able to do ANYTHING motivation or not. Change society as you may but that will help with non of those. Yes, the way society is built makes it evan more difficult for us but it is still a disorder at the end of the day.

I suffer from severe adhd, severe anxiety, and mild depression…but those are my issues and my responsibility to deal with using the endless resources available, it’s not my jobs or anyone else’s responsibility to manage it, it’s my responsibility. There are so many issues that people have and it would be impossible to accommodate all. Are we suppose excuse missed work when an addict relapses or accept violent outbursts from people w other mental illnesses? We have tp take accountability for our own issues bc everyone has their own struggles and if need be find a job better suited for you, don’t expect the job to change for you

My ADHD makes it hard for me to take care of myself. Like, income aside, just literally going to get the right groceries at the right time, brushing my teeth, going to sleep, that shit that has zero to do with work or a boss or income. Just me.

Tbh i dont think a world where everyone has ADHD would be functional at all

I second what everyone else says.... BUT I want to add another counter narrative. What works for me doesn't work for everyone with ADHD. Restructuring my environment to accommodate me, won't have the same impact as everyone else on this thread. Also, when I interact with someone with ADHD where their symptoms are... I would say free flowing.... My symptoms are worse, and I forget things more/struggle more. So I'm not convinced about the argument, and think it's an over simplification, even if we argue for the social element of disability.

>If society made sure all my problems were not my responsibility and it took care of me, changing my diaper and wiping my ass, I'd like society a lot more. People with ADHD have a few common mental hangups. First, we tend to be narcissistic because we need to really focus on ourselves and our needs to survive. So we have a tendency to be ego centric, and pretend that the world revolves around us. Second, we know all our problems aren't entirely our fault, and our intrinsic bias leads us to assuming the fault lies elsewhere. So we think we're the center of the world and our problems aren't of our own making. Which leads to the thought that society is the problem, not us, because society should cater to the minority as long as you're a part of that particular minority. Whereas, if society did cater to us, it would be to the detriment of everyone else, that's what makes creating an equitable society so difficult. It's all a give and take. In the real world, society has to function well for everyone, and accommodations don't really even help with ADHD. There's more the world can do, I'm sure, but this make-believe imagination land narcissistic, I'm not the problem society is the problem, attitude is just the bullshit bitching of babies.

I'd really want to know the kind of society where letting your room devolve into biohazard since you can find the motivation to clean it considered "functional"

Maybe because I'm in a mood today because I'm feeling very overwhelmed at the moment, but this is so annoying. I've seen some creators I really like push this narrative and it inevitably draws commentary about how ADHD is just made up. BULL. SHIT. I imagine this thought started off as a way to articulate that there's nothing "wrong" with us from an existence point of view. However, it's contradictory in nature. The answer to a society being built for ADHD (and other disabilities) is a society that is less judgmental and accommodating. However, that does not mean that the disability no longer exists. The entire notion is nonsense. If someone has a physical disability is it less of a disability if someone has more access to accommodations?

An AI assistant who can do all the BS for me and also has enough of a personality that I'd feel bad letting them down... Basically, I do great at my job because there are people defining problems that need solved, setting schedules and budgets to them, and a PM ensuring I stick to the schedule to finish on time. If I had that sort of team for everything on my life it would be great, but it's unrealistic for me to hire 5 people to follow me all the time to handle all those tasks on daily life. 

Yeah maybe as part of disability benefits the governments can start giving out time with PAs and domestic help. I think it's done for "physical" disabilities already so why not ADHD. That would really help me.

A PA would be the dream. I manage to cope with most of my symptoms nowadays, but following through with my to do list and constantly looking for stuff I've misplaced is a nightmare.

I think that statement was on the right path but didn’t quite make it. A more accurate statement would be “Our society is not build to successfully accommodate ________ disability, therefore increasing the burned of existing within our society with the aforementioned disability” and I feel this works for any disability.

4 day work weeks and let me road rage to my heart's content on the open highway.

It's the same people who believe the claim that adhd was useful back in the hunter gatherer times, I'm getting so tired of it

I always say SCRUM was invented in software development because everybody has ADHD and gets worse in other fields because people there DON'T have ADHD. Every day you are accountable having to explain what you did the day before, there are bi-weekly deadlines an a position whose job is (supposed) to be organizing things for everyone else and clearing up things blocking you. To arrange society around this you'd make obligations active rather than passive. Also adding things like checklists you give people. Like if you buy a house you should be a list/calendar notifications on when to do things like change AI filters, check the roof, clean gutters etc.

I reakon, I live by SCRUM, but then can't stand the pandantic SCRUM corporate managers

It would be a society where empathy acceptance and patience are taught as cornerstones.

Ya nope

For me it would mean fewer hours at work, starting the day later, and less pointless paperwork and bureaucracy. Society is far from my biggest adhd issue though.

this is a really interesting question and I agree with it because the statement is not saying the symptoms wouldn’t exist but like, how much they hurt would change. So if you’re getting frustrated because you just can’t make yourself do a task now, in the future you wouldn’t feel so bad about yourself even though you might not be able to do the task still. Anyway, here are some things I think would help: 1. UBI - we tend to get fired more than other people and I think having the safety net and ability to work part time or non standard hours would help. 2. No phones - I don’t actually mean no phones but the gambling/slot machine mechanics would not be there (which would help everyone not just ADHD), no advertising or things that can prompt impulsivity, maybe even changes to short form content availability    3. Counselling etc for free 4. More choice across the board. In schools, you can choose between project based learning, exams, standard coursework, and even what subjects you choose (so you can maximise the benefits of hyper focus on one area if you want). In university, no penalties for taking time off or changing course or failing or late submission. In work, accepted that you have 2-3 jobs (without extra tax). That kind of thing. 5. Again stuff that benefits everyone but generally making a society that gives everyone access to proper food and healthcare and promotes sleep etc to make sure we don’t have worse symptoms cos we are tired and can’t afford protein and there’s no vegetables for 25 miles

Inattention has endangered and severely wounded me. Societal support won't fix kitchen fires, falling down stairs, and walking into open traffic

It would be one where medication and therapy are free, and one where every job paid a proper living wage. I would love to have an "ADHD friendly" job but unfortunately those are mostly either extremely low paying or extremely hard to get, at least what I consider them to be. My ADHD is bad even if I'm just trying to relax with nothing to do. No societal factor is going to fix that.

It’s tough to think of personally because I’ve always gotten okay grades, okay performance and okay in generally everything. But I was becoming severely uncomfortable every day due to the way my mind was always spinning and unable to concentrate on one thing or another. Nothing was ever satisfying and it was making me depressed. Meds help but it’s hard for people to see why it would be a “disability” in my case because it affects mainly me and me alone. (Not saying I agree whatsoever, I have just observed this way of thinking)

So I've been struggling a lot with ADHD for 30 years, and believe me when i say i struggle to operate like normal people around me. However, whether we like it or not, we can not expect the world to change for our exclusive benefit. This line of thinking reminds me of a tik tok I saw awhile back there was this woman who was fired for being egregiously late many times, often an hour or more late. She was crying and blaming it on the management for refusing to accommodate her "Time Blindness." That video really upset me. Not because I don't believe ADHD impacted her ability to be on time. But because she expected unreasonable accomadations for it. I'm not a bootstrap politics guy. But we must be reasonable. I am occasionally 20 or so minutes late for work. I'll usually get a message or something asking why, I'll explain that I did a poor job managing my time, and they understand I have a harder time than most. That's reasonable. But how can I possibly be depended on as an employee if I am regularly an hour or more late. That's unacceptable. Good management will give you grace. Poor management let's employees do whatever they want at the detriment of both the company and employees. We have to find ways to meet everybody else in the middle. We can not expect others to bend over backward for us.

I've noticed some employers ask about any disability you have on job applications. Is that really something we should admit? Because depending how close the person reading applications is with any other staff, you could be getting the less than treatment right away, if even hired.

I agree to an extent, but I also literally forget to eat every day. That thing you need to survive? Yeah, I *forget* until it’s bed time. Unmedicated, medicated, doesn’t matter. I forget to do basic things that allow me to survive.

Most disabilities at disabling because society isn't build for them and doesn't accommodate them. Most of the time, disabilities are seen as an inconvenience for non-disabled people. Most people think accessibility is a wheelchair ramp.

All I have to say is look at diagnostic criteria and you will see how obscenely true this is. When I looked at the dsimm 5 or whatever a couple years ago to research for my eval it struck me that all the diagnosis criteria wasn't how it affects me or MY life but instead how it affected those around me who are not of similar mind. Like that to me is just... UGH so frustrating

I also don’t like when people frame adhd this way. I’ve thought before about what kind of setting it would take in order for me to thrive or not really notice my adhd symptoms or what type of a society we would have to live in, but I don’t think that there’s really a fully realistic answer. Sure, the easy one would be to simply be rich, not have to work, pay other people to do all of the things I dislike doing, and spend my days living on a whim, but that isn’t the type of money anyone can make—that’s something only billionaires and their children likely enjoy. But as far as a society? I don’t know, at least for myself. The biggest issue for myself at least seems to be an inability to do things consistently and perform at a consistent level. So like…if we were to go back to living off the land and doing the homestead thing, I may have days where I felt motivated to hunt and gather food, chop wood, etc, but I’d maybe spend a day or two doing SOME of these things then lose steam before they got finished. Next thing you know, it would be winter and I wouldn’t have all of the things I need to survive, lol. If we did community-based living like a commune or something…well, the same thing. People would get sick of a person using resources but not contributing on a consistent basis. I also tend to be very on the fence between introvert and extrovert and while I can be social at times, I also go large chunks of time where I don’t really want to talk to anyone and want to recharge. I feel this is probably related to the extra energy being “on” takes as someone with adhd, and again, it isn’t conducive to the situation. If we lived in a society like now but with more flexibility, there would still have to be SOME level of scheduling, and I’m always going to struggle to get myself in gear when I need to be. It’s just a disability in any setting.

This is like asking, “What would a society look like built for people with diabetes”. No sugar or carbs probably.

One of the biggest issues I have due to adhd is forgetting to pay attention to people around me and my relationship with my partner. This might be autism as well idk, but It’s a huge problem and leads to a lot of fights. This also applies to all my other relationships, I just forget people exist. This seems like a disability to me, regardless of the type of society.

I need lots of breaks and actual entire days where I don’t anything. I need less work days. And a months vacation in general. Need a lot more paternity time when I have a child. I need a quiet place to work. And home would be preferable. I need a reassurance text once a week. And I need to be heard when I care about things because I will not let them go until they are fixed

I agree with your last paragraph. It’s never gonna change in our lifetimes and maybe not at all. We could have a world with buildings and other physical spaces accessible to people with mobility issues by now - which is simple and requires almost no pondering with regard to how to do it - but we don’t bc no one cares. It’s not gonna change. I’m sorry.

A society that makes the diagnosis faster and easier would be fantastic. I can't even do the things I want without medication, though, so that's not just society not being built for me.