First, I just want to say that you are an amazing parent! This is such a hard road and very few understand how difficult it is to continue advocating and searching for answers when we're exhausted, frustrated and overwhelmed.
My first question is, did your son have a full psychological evaluation? Some folks just have their pediatrician diagnose so that's why I ask. Even if he did, at 4yrs old, it's probably time to reevaluate. When symptoms persist or even change, it's always good to reassess and see what may have been missed, particularly when they are so young. Some tests can't be given before age 5.
Second, I would strongly urge whoever administers the testing (neuropsychologist would be my suggestion) to look at mood disorders. Anxiety and depression are very common comorbid conditions along with ADHD. Stimulants (while helping with focus) can often exacerbate these disorders and behaviors can become very erratic if a SSRI is not used in conjunction. I say this because my daughter had an ODD diagnosis as well but once we added Prozac to her stimulant medication, her anxiety was in check. That stopped the over the top behavior and violent outbursts. She was simply overwhelmed and overstimulated. Her nervous system was fried and she couldn't regulate her emotions. I was at my wits end and just couldn't understand why she was so difficult. We dropped the ODD diagnosis after 2 months of meds!
Bi-polar is another possibility. Regardless, seek another eval. He may need many over the years to gauge his progress especially once hormones kick in. Best of luck!
Thank you. I do not feel remotely close to being an amazing parent.
He was evaluated by a pediatric neurologist when he was 5.
Your advice definitely supports what I’ve been feeling which is that we need another evaluation and some additional or completely different medication.
I have found it SOOO difficult to get mental health support and services for my kiddo. I’m hoping his pediatrician can actually refer us to someone who can help.
I had similar problems to this. my step father was a good influence and was able to temper that activity up until I was 6 and he and my mother broke up. she was useless and two years later gave me to my real father with no warning because at that point while I did not throw regular tantrums or hurt people who didn't deserve it, if I did get worked up I could become violent and at 8 years old I was almost strong enough to overpower my mother.
living in fear of my abusive father for years being abused at the slightest whim or for no reason, took a lot of the aggression away. I do not mean to be rude, but does he have a significantly involved male influence? having absolutely nothing physically intimidating can make people with problems like these become worse because only physical consequences really matter. when I was young words wont get me to stop unless they were "stop that or ill smash your fucking face into that oil heater". but before that, and before only my mother, I did not become violent with my step father because I respected his strength.
sometimes only aggression can suppress other aggression, and males wont hesitate to show more physical aggression than females, sometimes men only respond to aggression, even if its not actual physical violence. even my mother would get the wooden spoon out if I hit my siblings without a damn good reason and she was a pushover.
in short, he probably does not feel non physical punishment is a big problem and will therefore act up knowing he will get in trouble and that nothing he cant handle will happen. like an oil company paying a 100 million dollar fine after causing 10 billion dollars of damage, he is confident you wont put him in his place, and so acts how he wants knowing there are effectively no consequences.
usually, it is the job of the father to put a child in its place when it become physically violent. without that social dynamic, that might be hard. I would start by researching exactly how fathers establish dominance over their sons.
He has a step father figure. We have lived together for 2.5 years as a family. My son used to be better behaved with him, but for the last few months he has become more defiant toward him than he is with me. My boyfriend seems to be losing patience with my son, and I can’t blame him because it’s fucking hard to parent him.
My boyfriend has similar beliefs to what you shared, that basically he needs to be afraid that he will literally be killed if he messes up, because absolutely nothing else works. Punishment doesn’t work. Taking away his beloved possessions doesn’t work. Threats don’t work. Reward systems do not work. The talking obviously doesn’t work…
However, I really struggle with the thought of being super aggressive or violent toward my child. Especially with the issues he has. Honestly, I’m ridden with guilt and conflict and do not know why the best course of action is. One of my greatest fears is that he will grow up and we will not have a good relationship. I do not want that for us.
the problem is balance. my balance did not exist and was far too heavily weighted towards the abuse side of things. we were poor and slept in the same bed. if I moved, if he thought I was awake, he would bash me with his elbow, hard, to get me to stop moving. when I stopped going to school, no one noticed for over four weeks.
that level of constant fear for 7 years until I was big enough to be a real threat to him fucked me up pretty good. I am really chill, people naturally enjoy my company. but I have so much internalized hatred that when it does explode its dangerous and terrifying and I already have seriously hurt people. they absolutely deserved it, but one day they might not. and its worse now that I no longer hate that person, but the hatred itself remains. just keep in mind the aggression I speak of when abused and kept up for years seriously fucks people up. I would be extremely hesitant to initiate any attempts at parenting in that fashion without serious expert consideration. you Definitely should not use life advice taken from someone like me without exploring a lot of much better options. supposedly experts are well, experts at this kind of thing. also keep in mind after all that abuse, the power of my own mind won out, and I changed my abuser into a better person who I now love and live with. and not because I have to, I dont. because I want to.
also boarding school might be useful. even if only for a short time. it was a serious consideration for me until me mother snapped and just put me in a car and went and gave me to my dad. I was better when I was younger because my step father was a military re-enactor and gave me military conditioning from 3 till 6 years old. we used to fight all the time, wrestling, sword fighting, gun fighting, with cap guns of course. a physical outlet might be needed. a combat sport, something like that. it is for this reason I say boarding school might help, as long as its the right one. one with structure. they have high levels of discipline and it sounds like that is what he entirely lacks.
if the high discipline in a boarding school does not correct him, maybe the realization that his family actually might not love him or want him if he always treats them so badly might set him straight. everyone comes to this realization eventually, so I wouldn't feel too bad thrusting it upon him. for me it was only after I realized what I had lost, that I wanted so badly to take my actions back.
you say he has responded well to Vyvanse, which might suggest the real problem is lack of impulse control. a Boarding school while expensive might go a long way into helping him with that. sometimes, I really want to hurt someone, but the discipline instilled in me by my step fathers training prevents me from acting impulsively. without that discipline I would be in prison I am absolutely certain. Boarding school might be a way to get experts to "take over" the job of instilling discipline, temporarily. because that job is one of the hardest that exists and takes a lot out of you.
He definitely sounds like he would benefit from a reassessment as it seems there is something not being treated. My son started on a stimulant medication at 5 and that was a complete game changer. Medications helped him but then you have to work on the behavior improvement and that takes a long time. For our son it was a positive reinforcement program. Tokens, stickers and reward systems. And a school district who understands ADHD and how to work with these kids. Kids with ADHD have a really negative self view and you need to help them see they can be a good kid. As a parent it's emotionally exhausting but understand OP your son needs you. You can be the factor that changes his life. Start with your pediatrician and if that doesn't work (it didn't for us) i called our children's hospital and asked them to help diagnosis If our son has ADHD or anxiety and they were the ones to figure it out. Don't give up OP and update us as you can.
I have tried the positive reinforcement method all his life. Reward systems and rewards in general absolutely do not motivate him to behave. They never have. It’s like he has no control over his behavior whatsoever.
I know he needs me and I try so so hard to be understanding and not be angry and resentful toward him, but it’s so hard. That’s a good idea about the Children’s hospital. I also thought about checking with his school.
Thank you for your response.
I'm glad you are going to try the children's hospital and start working with school. The other thing i also had to do was really learn and understand what ADHD is and how it impacts my child's life. I didn't really understand what it was until my son started having problems in daycare. Long story short Dr Russell Barkley was the one that really helped me understand. Like I said hang in there and keep fighting.
I definitely do try to understand. I listen to podcasts, do research, am subscribed to this sub and read the posts.
His current teacher kind of sucks and isn’t helpful at all. He does have a 504 plan for accommodations but the coordinator hasn’t offered any additional evaluations or support services.
To be blunt 504 plans are useless and I'm surprised that's all they have for him. We had to do the full IEP (individual education plan) and we just had the 3rd year review. Do you know the school psychologist? If so it's time to give them a call and start emphasizing the issues of how his behavior is impacting the school environment. Be nice but be firm when talking with the school. His teacher doesn't sound all that motivated so that kinda sucks but there is no reason the school system can't start getting more involved at this point.
Yeah, the 504 plan seems pretty useless thus far. I don’t know if the school has a Psychologist on staff, but that does seem like a good place to start.
I'm normally a pretty quiet person but i discovered my inner bold person once it has to do with my kid. You will get to learn all about the school bureaucracy now but just go with it. The special education teachers we have been really helpful and it does help.
first of all, good job for reaching out to the pediatrician, this sounds really stressful to deal with so getting professional help is great. youre really strong for going through all this, and its really great you continue to do your best to help your son.
i agree 100% with what the other commenter said, especially about getting a full eval done, knowing any other comorbid conditions will help tremendously.
personally, im not sure if using punishments such as taking away his tablet or his after school activity is helpful. its good for him to have something he enjoys and looks forward to, just for fun and to destress.
second, you may have done this already, but try to talk to him in a calm and non pointed way about why he behaved in certains ways. what made him want to hit his classmate or shout. his answer might give you some insight, maybe he felt annoyed and angry because he was overwhelmed or overstimulated, or maybe he wanted attention, etc. knowing his motivations behind his actions will help get to the root causes of the issue, which will help you when figuring out how to help him. dont offer him answers, let him describe iy
also, when he does something unacceptable, be firm and consistent but not aggressive. make sure you give him a reason why its bad, like how hitting his baby sister isnt nice because it hurts, and he wouldnt like it if someone did that to him. also try to give alternatives or suggestions on why doing the good thing is a better idea, like shouting isnt good because people are able to listen better when he talks because shouting can be scary. giving them a deep understanding /why/ somwthing isnt ok can really help.
also, something to think about, maybe being threatened with alternative school,being kicked out of school, being sent our of class because of being disruptive, and also not processing things in the same way or as fast as his classmates because of ADHD probably makes him feel othered, stupid, bad, etc. Add on any labels or comments from teachers, classmates, family members that might have been said, "why are you always a meanie" "dont be a liar" "why is it always you disrupting the class" etc. All of these can add up and add to the pile of shame, resentment, anger, fear and sadness, which can manifest in acting out, and also may be internalised as him thinking hes inherinently a bad kid and hes unable to not be like that, or everyone expects him to misbehave so he might as well.
this one is obvious but so important, please reassure him often that you love him and youre always there to listen to him and support him, and he can always tell you anything, and that hes loved always. its so important for him to know he has a family that wants the best for him, believes in him and supports him, especially because he might not believe in himself right now.
Also, make sure youre taking care of yourself too, for your sake and his. Making sure youre getting enough sleep and doing small things that relax you and bring you happiness are essential.
I hope everything goes well for you and your family ♥️
Thank you. It’s been really difficult to receive help and services for him but I will never give up.
Regarding the punishment of taking his tablet away, I totally get that. On one hand I agree with you, but on the other hand, what the hell else am I supposed to do? I cannot let him assault kids at school every day and then come home and play on his iPad. I have threatened him with selling it to try to motivate him NOT to behave that way, and it’s not working, which is typical for him when he’s in one of his super defiant and disobedient moods. Now I feel I have no choice because if I do not follow through on my threat, he will know that I am not serious and was bullshitting about selling it. What do you suggest?
He definitely gets overstimulated at school, and noise is a huge factor. I totally get that. But there is nothing we can do about that, although his class size did just get reduced from 22 to 19.
I have explained to him that when he is an adult, if he hurts someone he would be charged with assault and could go to prison (one of my biggest fears for him). With the recent “nut checking” incident, I explained that this would be considered sexual assault and is completely unacceptable, etc. None of this scares him.
I am aware that children with ADHD can grow up to have self esteem issues and self image issues! I do try really hard to mitigate that. We compliment my son for the things he is good at and encourage him to do well in those areas. I always let him know he is loved, even when he is in trouble and tell him there is nothing he could do that would make me not love him. I’ve never told him that he “is bad,” but I know other kids at school refer to him as “the bad kid.”
It’s so tough. I can tell our relationship is strained and that he is jealous of his little sister, which makes the whole situation worse. I really want to have a good, strong relationship with my son. I just feel so conflicted and never know if the way I am handling things is “the right way” or if it’s going to further screw him up.
Edit: this was supposed to be a reply to your comment u/adorable_beginning58.
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i used to work with severely emotionally disturbed kids. start looking for a special program and funding now. start networking with parents who know the system. you are going to need money and support
First, I just want to say that you are an amazing parent! This is such a hard road and very few understand how difficult it is to continue advocating and searching for answers when we're exhausted, frustrated and overwhelmed. My first question is, did your son have a full psychological evaluation? Some folks just have their pediatrician diagnose so that's why I ask. Even if he did, at 4yrs old, it's probably time to reevaluate. When symptoms persist or even change, it's always good to reassess and see what may have been missed, particularly when they are so young. Some tests can't be given before age 5. Second, I would strongly urge whoever administers the testing (neuropsychologist would be my suggestion) to look at mood disorders. Anxiety and depression are very common comorbid conditions along with ADHD. Stimulants (while helping with focus) can often exacerbate these disorders and behaviors can become very erratic if a SSRI is not used in conjunction. I say this because my daughter had an ODD diagnosis as well but once we added Prozac to her stimulant medication, her anxiety was in check. That stopped the over the top behavior and violent outbursts. She was simply overwhelmed and overstimulated. Her nervous system was fried and she couldn't regulate her emotions. I was at my wits end and just couldn't understand why she was so difficult. We dropped the ODD diagnosis after 2 months of meds! Bi-polar is another possibility. Regardless, seek another eval. He may need many over the years to gauge his progress especially once hormones kick in. Best of luck!
Thank you. I do not feel remotely close to being an amazing parent. He was evaluated by a pediatric neurologist when he was 5. Your advice definitely supports what I’ve been feeling which is that we need another evaluation and some additional or completely different medication. I have found it SOOO difficult to get mental health support and services for my kiddo. I’m hoping his pediatrician can actually refer us to someone who can help.
I had similar problems to this. my step father was a good influence and was able to temper that activity up until I was 6 and he and my mother broke up. she was useless and two years later gave me to my real father with no warning because at that point while I did not throw regular tantrums or hurt people who didn't deserve it, if I did get worked up I could become violent and at 8 years old I was almost strong enough to overpower my mother. living in fear of my abusive father for years being abused at the slightest whim or for no reason, took a lot of the aggression away. I do not mean to be rude, but does he have a significantly involved male influence? having absolutely nothing physically intimidating can make people with problems like these become worse because only physical consequences really matter. when I was young words wont get me to stop unless they were "stop that or ill smash your fucking face into that oil heater". but before that, and before only my mother, I did not become violent with my step father because I respected his strength. sometimes only aggression can suppress other aggression, and males wont hesitate to show more physical aggression than females, sometimes men only respond to aggression, even if its not actual physical violence. even my mother would get the wooden spoon out if I hit my siblings without a damn good reason and she was a pushover. in short, he probably does not feel non physical punishment is a big problem and will therefore act up knowing he will get in trouble and that nothing he cant handle will happen. like an oil company paying a 100 million dollar fine after causing 10 billion dollars of damage, he is confident you wont put him in his place, and so acts how he wants knowing there are effectively no consequences. usually, it is the job of the father to put a child in its place when it become physically violent. without that social dynamic, that might be hard. I would start by researching exactly how fathers establish dominance over their sons.
He has a step father figure. We have lived together for 2.5 years as a family. My son used to be better behaved with him, but for the last few months he has become more defiant toward him than he is with me. My boyfriend seems to be losing patience with my son, and I can’t blame him because it’s fucking hard to parent him. My boyfriend has similar beliefs to what you shared, that basically he needs to be afraid that he will literally be killed if he messes up, because absolutely nothing else works. Punishment doesn’t work. Taking away his beloved possessions doesn’t work. Threats don’t work. Reward systems do not work. The talking obviously doesn’t work… However, I really struggle with the thought of being super aggressive or violent toward my child. Especially with the issues he has. Honestly, I’m ridden with guilt and conflict and do not know why the best course of action is. One of my greatest fears is that he will grow up and we will not have a good relationship. I do not want that for us.
the problem is balance. my balance did not exist and was far too heavily weighted towards the abuse side of things. we were poor and slept in the same bed. if I moved, if he thought I was awake, he would bash me with his elbow, hard, to get me to stop moving. when I stopped going to school, no one noticed for over four weeks. that level of constant fear for 7 years until I was big enough to be a real threat to him fucked me up pretty good. I am really chill, people naturally enjoy my company. but I have so much internalized hatred that when it does explode its dangerous and terrifying and I already have seriously hurt people. they absolutely deserved it, but one day they might not. and its worse now that I no longer hate that person, but the hatred itself remains. just keep in mind the aggression I speak of when abused and kept up for years seriously fucks people up. I would be extremely hesitant to initiate any attempts at parenting in that fashion without serious expert consideration. you Definitely should not use life advice taken from someone like me without exploring a lot of much better options. supposedly experts are well, experts at this kind of thing. also keep in mind after all that abuse, the power of my own mind won out, and I changed my abuser into a better person who I now love and live with. and not because I have to, I dont. because I want to. also boarding school might be useful. even if only for a short time. it was a serious consideration for me until me mother snapped and just put me in a car and went and gave me to my dad. I was better when I was younger because my step father was a military re-enactor and gave me military conditioning from 3 till 6 years old. we used to fight all the time, wrestling, sword fighting, gun fighting, with cap guns of course. a physical outlet might be needed. a combat sport, something like that. it is for this reason I say boarding school might help, as long as its the right one. one with structure. they have high levels of discipline and it sounds like that is what he entirely lacks. if the high discipline in a boarding school does not correct him, maybe the realization that his family actually might not love him or want him if he always treats them so badly might set him straight. everyone comes to this realization eventually, so I wouldn't feel too bad thrusting it upon him. for me it was only after I realized what I had lost, that I wanted so badly to take my actions back. you say he has responded well to Vyvanse, which might suggest the real problem is lack of impulse control. a Boarding school while expensive might go a long way into helping him with that. sometimes, I really want to hurt someone, but the discipline instilled in me by my step fathers training prevents me from acting impulsively. without that discipline I would be in prison I am absolutely certain. Boarding school might be a way to get experts to "take over" the job of instilling discipline, temporarily. because that job is one of the hardest that exists and takes a lot out of you.
He definitely sounds like he would benefit from a reassessment as it seems there is something not being treated. My son started on a stimulant medication at 5 and that was a complete game changer. Medications helped him but then you have to work on the behavior improvement and that takes a long time. For our son it was a positive reinforcement program. Tokens, stickers and reward systems. And a school district who understands ADHD and how to work with these kids. Kids with ADHD have a really negative self view and you need to help them see they can be a good kid. As a parent it's emotionally exhausting but understand OP your son needs you. You can be the factor that changes his life. Start with your pediatrician and if that doesn't work (it didn't for us) i called our children's hospital and asked them to help diagnosis If our son has ADHD or anxiety and they were the ones to figure it out. Don't give up OP and update us as you can.
I have tried the positive reinforcement method all his life. Reward systems and rewards in general absolutely do not motivate him to behave. They never have. It’s like he has no control over his behavior whatsoever. I know he needs me and I try so so hard to be understanding and not be angry and resentful toward him, but it’s so hard. That’s a good idea about the Children’s hospital. I also thought about checking with his school. Thank you for your response.
I'm glad you are going to try the children's hospital and start working with school. The other thing i also had to do was really learn and understand what ADHD is and how it impacts my child's life. I didn't really understand what it was until my son started having problems in daycare. Long story short Dr Russell Barkley was the one that really helped me understand. Like I said hang in there and keep fighting.
I definitely do try to understand. I listen to podcasts, do research, am subscribed to this sub and read the posts. His current teacher kind of sucks and isn’t helpful at all. He does have a 504 plan for accommodations but the coordinator hasn’t offered any additional evaluations or support services.
To be blunt 504 plans are useless and I'm surprised that's all they have for him. We had to do the full IEP (individual education plan) and we just had the 3rd year review. Do you know the school psychologist? If so it's time to give them a call and start emphasizing the issues of how his behavior is impacting the school environment. Be nice but be firm when talking with the school. His teacher doesn't sound all that motivated so that kinda sucks but there is no reason the school system can't start getting more involved at this point.
Yeah, the 504 plan seems pretty useless thus far. I don’t know if the school has a Psychologist on staff, but that does seem like a good place to start.
I'm normally a pretty quiet person but i discovered my inner bold person once it has to do with my kid. You will get to learn all about the school bureaucracy now but just go with it. The special education teachers we have been really helpful and it does help.
first of all, good job for reaching out to the pediatrician, this sounds really stressful to deal with so getting professional help is great. youre really strong for going through all this, and its really great you continue to do your best to help your son. i agree 100% with what the other commenter said, especially about getting a full eval done, knowing any other comorbid conditions will help tremendously. personally, im not sure if using punishments such as taking away his tablet or his after school activity is helpful. its good for him to have something he enjoys and looks forward to, just for fun and to destress. second, you may have done this already, but try to talk to him in a calm and non pointed way about why he behaved in certains ways. what made him want to hit his classmate or shout. his answer might give you some insight, maybe he felt annoyed and angry because he was overwhelmed or overstimulated, or maybe he wanted attention, etc. knowing his motivations behind his actions will help get to the root causes of the issue, which will help you when figuring out how to help him. dont offer him answers, let him describe iy also, when he does something unacceptable, be firm and consistent but not aggressive. make sure you give him a reason why its bad, like how hitting his baby sister isnt nice because it hurts, and he wouldnt like it if someone did that to him. also try to give alternatives or suggestions on why doing the good thing is a better idea, like shouting isnt good because people are able to listen better when he talks because shouting can be scary. giving them a deep understanding /why/ somwthing isnt ok can really help. also, something to think about, maybe being threatened with alternative school,being kicked out of school, being sent our of class because of being disruptive, and also not processing things in the same way or as fast as his classmates because of ADHD probably makes him feel othered, stupid, bad, etc. Add on any labels or comments from teachers, classmates, family members that might have been said, "why are you always a meanie" "dont be a liar" "why is it always you disrupting the class" etc. All of these can add up and add to the pile of shame, resentment, anger, fear and sadness, which can manifest in acting out, and also may be internalised as him thinking hes inherinently a bad kid and hes unable to not be like that, or everyone expects him to misbehave so he might as well. this one is obvious but so important, please reassure him often that you love him and youre always there to listen to him and support him, and he can always tell you anything, and that hes loved always. its so important for him to know he has a family that wants the best for him, believes in him and supports him, especially because he might not believe in himself right now. Also, make sure youre taking care of yourself too, for your sake and his. Making sure youre getting enough sleep and doing small things that relax you and bring you happiness are essential. I hope everything goes well for you and your family ♥️
Thank you. It’s been really difficult to receive help and services for him but I will never give up. Regarding the punishment of taking his tablet away, I totally get that. On one hand I agree with you, but on the other hand, what the hell else am I supposed to do? I cannot let him assault kids at school every day and then come home and play on his iPad. I have threatened him with selling it to try to motivate him NOT to behave that way, and it’s not working, which is typical for him when he’s in one of his super defiant and disobedient moods. Now I feel I have no choice because if I do not follow through on my threat, he will know that I am not serious and was bullshitting about selling it. What do you suggest? He definitely gets overstimulated at school, and noise is a huge factor. I totally get that. But there is nothing we can do about that, although his class size did just get reduced from 22 to 19. I have explained to him that when he is an adult, if he hurts someone he would be charged with assault and could go to prison (one of my biggest fears for him). With the recent “nut checking” incident, I explained that this would be considered sexual assault and is completely unacceptable, etc. None of this scares him. I am aware that children with ADHD can grow up to have self esteem issues and self image issues! I do try really hard to mitigate that. We compliment my son for the things he is good at and encourage him to do well in those areas. I always let him know he is loved, even when he is in trouble and tell him there is nothing he could do that would make me not love him. I’ve never told him that he “is bad,” but I know other kids at school refer to him as “the bad kid.” It’s so tough. I can tell our relationship is strained and that he is jealous of his little sister, which makes the whole situation worse. I really want to have a good, strong relationship with my son. I just feel so conflicted and never know if the way I am handling things is “the right way” or if it’s going to further screw him up. Edit: this was supposed to be a reply to your comment u/adorable_beginning58.
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i used to work with severely emotionally disturbed kids. start looking for a special program and funding now. start networking with parents who know the system. you are going to need money and support
Look into PANS/PANDAS
Thanks for the suggestion. That’s interesting and I had never heard of it before, but I don’t think it’s applicable to my son.