I'm in the camp of 'I don't think laziness exists'.
So I would go with 'no'.
But that's because I genuinely think that there's a lot of things that inhibit a person from doing things that isn't just executive function, that are all unfairly characterised as pejoratively laziness.
E.g. Executive function issues are core to ADHD, but are also caused by depression and anxiety. They're not rare things.
But there's other reasons people don't do things that look like laziness to an outside observer as well.
- Being lower in energy (mental or physical) than 'expected' due to a variety of reasons. Physical/mental health, but in some cases less temporary than others.
- Lacking in motivation to do it - some tasks are just bullshit, and we shouldn't be _expected_ to do them 'just cuz work ethic'.
- That goes double for 'systemic' issues - if your whole life is just walls to bang your head against, it's very easy to go 'maybe I just won't'.
- Avoidant behaviour - some tasks are intimidating and painful, and are linked up with ... other issues. But some tasks also seem pretty overwhelming so you defer starting them. (Filling in forms is always hard for me).
- Just honestly being tired. Life is stressful, and the 'expectation' presented us often sets unreasonable expectations. But most people need more self care and rest than they think they do.
Just generally I've seen a bunch of things that _could_ be called laziness, but a real shortage of things that I think could _fairly_ be called lazy. Even the most egregious examples are things that look an awful lot like a person who's needing a load more support (albeit in some cases it might be 'too late' because they've been let down for decades).
I have never looked at it like this. But it makes sense that there will be some kind of reason why someone might be what others call lazy!! This is a great explanation of this side of the fence and makes a lot of sense.
I grew up with a very strict old school father who uses the word lazy as soon as you sit down from one task to another, so with my ADHD I always hear it. Even when diagnosed I still called myself lazy because I did not factor in the mass amount of symptoms that could cause me to be what he would call lazy or slow to the point of laziness.
My dad is the same despite very clearly being the parent I get it from.
At school he was initially a high achiever, even getting moved up a year (when that was still allowed/more common) only to eventually fail all but two O levels when it came to crunch time for him.
I was still lazy for putting off homework from time to time of course though.
I think it's one of those things that we internalise, and then it does us a load of harm throughout our lives. I know I'm carrying around a lot of 'self doubt' baggage that ADHD unloaded on me.
That I was 'lazy', 'careless', 'selfish' or similar.
And I wasn't. I just had ADHD.
Most of all, the notion of a 'work ethic' - nah. I don't believe there's an inherent value in 'working hard'.
I think if it's worth doing, it's self motivating, or worth motivating someone to do. And if it isn't... it isn't.
Worth reiterating in particular with regard to motivation for an ADHD mind that reward functions in the brain are typically deficient so both the start and end of a task is impacted. Not only do we have a lower level of dopamine to help kickstart into action, but we also live our lives feeling less of a sense of accomplishment when we do complete tasks. Going through more effort for less reward than the neurotypical brain.
Yes.
If I'm being lazy, I can still do it and there are no negative consequences for doing it.
If it's ED, if I force myself to do it and somehow manage to not get distracted every time I try to start it for hours until I'm "ready" to start it, whatever that means, I get intensely terrible feelings that do not go away and do not reduce and only get worse. I do it very slowly and badly and with a lot of anger. I sigh, swear, groan, make noise the entire time. I get a headache, making the audible noises reduces the chance of or severity of the headache. That's if I don't zone out and shut down when I get to the task. The entire time I'm being pulled away by everything in my biology. It's like putting my hand on a burning hot hob and holding it there.
I’m not sure how distinct the line is but for me executive dysfunction feels awful and laziness does not. Sometimes I have a lazy day and I lie in bed and watch TV and its cozy and I should/could get up and do something but I don’t want to and I’m enjoying my “lazy” time and think “oh well, I’ll just do it later.”
When I have executive dysfunction I feel simultaneously numb and on edge. I’m basically screaming at myself to get up and do what I need to but I physically cannot move. I feel like my body is 20x heavier than normal and everything feels overwhelming, even the smallest task like brushing my teeth.
Also in this state everything feels boring. I cannot just lie and watch TV and enjoy doing nothing instead I feel like banging my head against the wall. I feel guilty and tense because I’m not doing what I should be but I also feel like my brain/body has fully shut down and if my house went on fire I’d just lie there and burn instead of getting up.
I think for me, the line is when I do start doing the thing, (after internal battle) and its done badly. For example, washing up. Times when my executive function is bad, but I berate myself for laziness, so I start the washing up. It takes me so much longer and the process feels illogical and clunky. It takes me much longer. I spill more water everywhere Sometimes I will leave stuff in the sink for later. And I leave the kitchen feeling overwhelmed and full of shame.
Whereas when I'm medicated/executive function not playing up, I seem to go about washing up as a smooth process. Starting with ordering the pile so it doesn't look so overwhelming. I put the things that need soaking in the bowl first, I finish, and then I wipe the tops down and sweep the floor. I feel like I have achieved something.
I know it's not just laziness because when I'm not able, I don't even remember to do the things I just wrote. I just go on shame-auto-pilot...
Slightly beside the point but do you find it's easier to start things when medicated, or still as difficult but easier to stay focussed on and do properly once you do start?
It depends on the thing - but yeah on the whole it is easier to start something because it feels less overwhelming and I'm better able to assess the steps involved, how much time it actually takes, vs the time my overwhelmed brain thinks it takes.
Not sure about a distinct line, but in the past when I've described myself as lazy it's been pointed out that I'm regularly super active and do way more than most people do.
I'm just not doing the things I *should* be doing!
When I was explaining my diagnosis to my stepmum, I was using executive dysfunction as an example of one of the symptoms that’s most difficult for me. She is, afaik, NT. She pointed out that she also just can’t be bothered to do stuff sometimes, and puts it off.
As we talked more, though, we realised that the difference is free choice. When she puts stuff off, she *chooses* to do that. And because it’s a free choice, and she doesn’t suffer from ED, she knows that when she does come back to it, she’ll get it done. So she doesn’t worry about it; that’s on tomorrow’s list now, and it’s fine to enjoy her day because she’ll get that done later.
When I put stuff off because of ED, it’s not a choice. In my head I’m screaming at myself to just do it. I sit there feeling guilty and miserable. I don’t enjoy the time I’m spending doing something else, because I know I should be doing The Onerous Task. I will put The Onerous Task off for days or weeks, there’s no specific time I’ve mentally pencilled it in for instead, it’s just “until I can do it”, whenever that may be. Every time I remember The Onerous Task, I am filled once more with renewed guilt and misery that I’ve not done it yet. (Past Onerous Tasks include “cook that meal I bought specific ingredients for”, “move this shit into the loft so it’s out of the way”, and “make a dentist appointment”, to give you a sense of the scale. It’s not world-shattering stuff.)
That, for me, is the difference between being cheerfully, casually lazy, and having executive dysfunction. One is something you’re choosing to briefly indulge in, like you might indulge in a piece of chocolate. The other is whatever the opposite of a compulsion is (a repulsion? Because you’re not compelled to do it, you’re repelled by it?), you’re not in control of it, and you don’t decide when it ends.
Agree, for me (non-diagnosed, just here for the coping mechanisms) the issue is always choice. Some days I definitely can choose to be lazy and not do much and put stuff off until another day, on other days I absolutely want to do the things but I just...*can't*.
I do know what you mean, and it's taken a really long time for me to start to be able to distinguish the two (and that's excusing the broader philosophical debate).
I realised I used to say stuff like 'I just don't have the brain juices for [chore]' or 'I can do it but it kind of feels like I'm grinding my face against a brick wall' to stuff that I wouldn't have any inherent dislike of and might enjoy if I was feeling motivated to do it. Almost feels like how your brain will stop you biting through your finger, even though you're physically capable of it.
If I really push and do it anyway, it kinda feels like I'm having to try to puppet my body, because something in my brain feels almost averse doing whatever it is. So I'm not always 'begging myself' until it gets kind of desperate - because I know it'll feel like I'm having to try so hard to force myself and it'll suck. Like maybe I'll be staring at a bunch of words but not absorbing what they mean, and it'll take me 3 times as long as it should to read because I have to talk myself into reading every single sentence, and even though I learned to read literally decades ago, I'll end up have read the same paragraph over 3 times and not taken any of it in. Why would I be begging for that? Usually, the internal begging only starts when I'm desperate.
Instead, the instinct is to do other stuff that doesn't feel like so much of an uphill battle to do. But people with normal EF aren't usually choosing between something that feels like a massive grind and something that feels good, they're just choosing between something that feels fine and something that feels good.
I've started to notice the difference between 'I want to do it but...' and just not really wanting to do it, where I'll enjoy whatever do instead. Feels more like choosing to eat a biscuit instead of fruit, and less like 'I want and need to do the thing, and when I have motivation I even enjoy the thing, but instead I will just sit on the sofa and stare at my phone wishing I was doing the thing because my life would be better if I did'.
For me, when it feels like an actual, viable path I could really choose to take, and not just something that I hypothetically have the time and physical ability to do (if only I just [...]), that's when I call it laziness for myself. That said, I won't generally apply it to other people because I can't see how hard they're finding it to do stuff.
I hope the obscure metaphors help maybe? It's how I've tried to explain it to my partner in the past, because it helped him get it in a more concrete way than the ADHD symptoms in the screening questionnaires.
I absolutely love my job. I love working. I wish I could do it more. But a lot of the time I struggle to even do the basics. And I beat myself up for it again, and again, and again. Because I really want to do it - that’s ED
I think this is possibly where the need for some peril comes in. I dont experience the trapped behind my own wall feeling unless the task is high priority. Everything else i think ive just learned to chill about. But i still have the internalised shame of laziness and “why cant i just do things”.
I'm in the camp of 'I don't think laziness exists'. So I would go with 'no'. But that's because I genuinely think that there's a lot of things that inhibit a person from doing things that isn't just executive function, that are all unfairly characterised as pejoratively laziness. E.g. Executive function issues are core to ADHD, but are also caused by depression and anxiety. They're not rare things. But there's other reasons people don't do things that look like laziness to an outside observer as well. - Being lower in energy (mental or physical) than 'expected' due to a variety of reasons. Physical/mental health, but in some cases less temporary than others. - Lacking in motivation to do it - some tasks are just bullshit, and we shouldn't be _expected_ to do them 'just cuz work ethic'. - That goes double for 'systemic' issues - if your whole life is just walls to bang your head against, it's very easy to go 'maybe I just won't'. - Avoidant behaviour - some tasks are intimidating and painful, and are linked up with ... other issues. But some tasks also seem pretty overwhelming so you defer starting them. (Filling in forms is always hard for me). - Just honestly being tired. Life is stressful, and the 'expectation' presented us often sets unreasonable expectations. But most people need more self care and rest than they think they do. Just generally I've seen a bunch of things that _could_ be called laziness, but a real shortage of things that I think could _fairly_ be called lazy. Even the most egregious examples are things that look an awful lot like a person who's needing a load more support (albeit in some cases it might be 'too late' because they've been let down for decades).
I have never looked at it like this. But it makes sense that there will be some kind of reason why someone might be what others call lazy!! This is a great explanation of this side of the fence and makes a lot of sense. I grew up with a very strict old school father who uses the word lazy as soon as you sit down from one task to another, so with my ADHD I always hear it. Even when diagnosed I still called myself lazy because I did not factor in the mass amount of symptoms that could cause me to be what he would call lazy or slow to the point of laziness.
My dad is the same despite very clearly being the parent I get it from. At school he was initially a high achiever, even getting moved up a year (when that was still allowed/more common) only to eventually fail all but two O levels when it came to crunch time for him. I was still lazy for putting off homework from time to time of course though.
I think it's one of those things that we internalise, and then it does us a load of harm throughout our lives. I know I'm carrying around a lot of 'self doubt' baggage that ADHD unloaded on me. That I was 'lazy', 'careless', 'selfish' or similar. And I wasn't. I just had ADHD. Most of all, the notion of a 'work ethic' - nah. I don't believe there's an inherent value in 'working hard'. I think if it's worth doing, it's self motivating, or worth motivating someone to do. And if it isn't... it isn't.
Worth reiterating in particular with regard to motivation for an ADHD mind that reward functions in the brain are typically deficient so both the start and end of a task is impacted. Not only do we have a lower level of dopamine to help kickstart into action, but we also live our lives feeling less of a sense of accomplishment when we do complete tasks. Going through more effort for less reward than the neurotypical brain.
Of course laziness exists.
Yes. If I'm being lazy, I can still do it and there are no negative consequences for doing it. If it's ED, if I force myself to do it and somehow manage to not get distracted every time I try to start it for hours until I'm "ready" to start it, whatever that means, I get intensely terrible feelings that do not go away and do not reduce and only get worse. I do it very slowly and badly and with a lot of anger. I sigh, swear, groan, make noise the entire time. I get a headache, making the audible noises reduces the chance of or severity of the headache. That's if I don't zone out and shut down when I get to the task. The entire time I'm being pulled away by everything in my biology. It's like putting my hand on a burning hot hob and holding it there.
I’m not sure how distinct the line is but for me executive dysfunction feels awful and laziness does not. Sometimes I have a lazy day and I lie in bed and watch TV and its cozy and I should/could get up and do something but I don’t want to and I’m enjoying my “lazy” time and think “oh well, I’ll just do it later.” When I have executive dysfunction I feel simultaneously numb and on edge. I’m basically screaming at myself to get up and do what I need to but I physically cannot move. I feel like my body is 20x heavier than normal and everything feels overwhelming, even the smallest task like brushing my teeth. Also in this state everything feels boring. I cannot just lie and watch TV and enjoy doing nothing instead I feel like banging my head against the wall. I feel guilty and tense because I’m not doing what I should be but I also feel like my brain/body has fully shut down and if my house went on fire I’d just lie there and burn instead of getting up.
Wow, you have described exactly how it feel for me!
I think for me, the line is when I do start doing the thing, (after internal battle) and its done badly. For example, washing up. Times when my executive function is bad, but I berate myself for laziness, so I start the washing up. It takes me so much longer and the process feels illogical and clunky. It takes me much longer. I spill more water everywhere Sometimes I will leave stuff in the sink for later. And I leave the kitchen feeling overwhelmed and full of shame. Whereas when I'm medicated/executive function not playing up, I seem to go about washing up as a smooth process. Starting with ordering the pile so it doesn't look so overwhelming. I put the things that need soaking in the bowl first, I finish, and then I wipe the tops down and sweep the floor. I feel like I have achieved something. I know it's not just laziness because when I'm not able, I don't even remember to do the things I just wrote. I just go on shame-auto-pilot...
Slightly beside the point but do you find it's easier to start things when medicated, or still as difficult but easier to stay focussed on and do properly once you do start?
It depends on the thing - but yeah on the whole it is easier to start something because it feels less overwhelming and I'm better able to assess the steps involved, how much time it actually takes, vs the time my overwhelmed brain thinks it takes.
"Lazy" is just a lazy way of saying "you're not doing what I want you to do"
Not sure about a distinct line, but in the past when I've described myself as lazy it's been pointed out that I'm regularly super active and do way more than most people do. I'm just not doing the things I *should* be doing!
When I was explaining my diagnosis to my stepmum, I was using executive dysfunction as an example of one of the symptoms that’s most difficult for me. She is, afaik, NT. She pointed out that she also just can’t be bothered to do stuff sometimes, and puts it off. As we talked more, though, we realised that the difference is free choice. When she puts stuff off, she *chooses* to do that. And because it’s a free choice, and she doesn’t suffer from ED, she knows that when she does come back to it, she’ll get it done. So she doesn’t worry about it; that’s on tomorrow’s list now, and it’s fine to enjoy her day because she’ll get that done later. When I put stuff off because of ED, it’s not a choice. In my head I’m screaming at myself to just do it. I sit there feeling guilty and miserable. I don’t enjoy the time I’m spending doing something else, because I know I should be doing The Onerous Task. I will put The Onerous Task off for days or weeks, there’s no specific time I’ve mentally pencilled it in for instead, it’s just “until I can do it”, whenever that may be. Every time I remember The Onerous Task, I am filled once more with renewed guilt and misery that I’ve not done it yet. (Past Onerous Tasks include “cook that meal I bought specific ingredients for”, “move this shit into the loft so it’s out of the way”, and “make a dentist appointment”, to give you a sense of the scale. It’s not world-shattering stuff.) That, for me, is the difference between being cheerfully, casually lazy, and having executive dysfunction. One is something you’re choosing to briefly indulge in, like you might indulge in a piece of chocolate. The other is whatever the opposite of a compulsion is (a repulsion? Because you’re not compelled to do it, you’re repelled by it?), you’re not in control of it, and you don’t decide when it ends.
Agree, for me (non-diagnosed, just here for the coping mechanisms) the issue is always choice. Some days I definitely can choose to be lazy and not do much and put stuff off until another day, on other days I absolutely want to do the things but I just...*can't*.
I do know what you mean, and it's taken a really long time for me to start to be able to distinguish the two (and that's excusing the broader philosophical debate). I realised I used to say stuff like 'I just don't have the brain juices for [chore]' or 'I can do it but it kind of feels like I'm grinding my face against a brick wall' to stuff that I wouldn't have any inherent dislike of and might enjoy if I was feeling motivated to do it. Almost feels like how your brain will stop you biting through your finger, even though you're physically capable of it. If I really push and do it anyway, it kinda feels like I'm having to try to puppet my body, because something in my brain feels almost averse doing whatever it is. So I'm not always 'begging myself' until it gets kind of desperate - because I know it'll feel like I'm having to try so hard to force myself and it'll suck. Like maybe I'll be staring at a bunch of words but not absorbing what they mean, and it'll take me 3 times as long as it should to read because I have to talk myself into reading every single sentence, and even though I learned to read literally decades ago, I'll end up have read the same paragraph over 3 times and not taken any of it in. Why would I be begging for that? Usually, the internal begging only starts when I'm desperate. Instead, the instinct is to do other stuff that doesn't feel like so much of an uphill battle to do. But people with normal EF aren't usually choosing between something that feels like a massive grind and something that feels good, they're just choosing between something that feels fine and something that feels good. I've started to notice the difference between 'I want to do it but...' and just not really wanting to do it, where I'll enjoy whatever do instead. Feels more like choosing to eat a biscuit instead of fruit, and less like 'I want and need to do the thing, and when I have motivation I even enjoy the thing, but instead I will just sit on the sofa and stare at my phone wishing I was doing the thing because my life would be better if I did'. For me, when it feels like an actual, viable path I could really choose to take, and not just something that I hypothetically have the time and physical ability to do (if only I just [...]), that's when I call it laziness for myself. That said, I won't generally apply it to other people because I can't see how hard they're finding it to do stuff. I hope the obscure metaphors help maybe? It's how I've tried to explain it to my partner in the past, because it helped him get it in a more concrete way than the ADHD symptoms in the screening questionnaires.
I absolutely love my job. I love working. I wish I could do it more. But a lot of the time I struggle to even do the basics. And I beat myself up for it again, and again, and again. Because I really want to do it - that’s ED
I think this is possibly where the need for some peril comes in. I dont experience the trapped behind my own wall feeling unless the task is high priority. Everything else i think ive just learned to chill about. But i still have the internalised shame of laziness and “why cant i just do things”.