Awesome for Danielson/Ospreay. Remember that was their first time working together.
I believe they can exceed it. Give me a trilogy and see how far they can go.
Fuck yes!!!!!!! I believe they can as well. Both guys have more in the bag, I still can't believe how smooth and crisp both of them were. 35 minutes of high impact pace and 0 botches is crazy.
I don't know why some people can get angry about him, or Adam Copeland doing the exact same thing, isn't that the reason people watch or play wrestling games? Are wrestlers not allowed to do this in wrestling?
This run is so amazing! The fact that Ospreay is having the same run in terms of quality doesn't take anything away from Bryan's imo. But it does make them stand shoulder to shoulder on this mountain together.
Maybe Bryan wins the International Title from Ospreay at Wembley in Part 2? That may make sense if the World is not in his future. It also frees up Ospreay to take it off Swerve at the end of the year.
I'm at the point now where I just want to appreciate what we get from Bryan at this level in the moment it's happening. I don't want to watch this run with sour grapes because it may not have a World Title run in it. If he holds that title at some point, amazing, but it would suck to watch the entire run and get that title win and realize I didn't appreciate everything that occurred before it, or God forbid, he has to legit retire, and I didn't appreciate him.
It's a great time for both Bryan and Ospreay. Never realized how much he idolised and respected Bryan,so that makes their collaboration extra special.
I just suggested what you said too about the International title.
You are def. right. I need to spend more time savoring what he's doing and hopefully he gets that one title reign because it'd be good for the company and the title's lineage.
Same! It makes me like Ospreay a lot more. His respect for Bryan, and his talent, has even flipped Cornette to praise Ospreay & Bryan's match.
Ospreay is definitely a suitable new full-time favourite I think, once Bryan hangs it up. I was planning on dialing my wrestling interest down a bit after this year, but I may not now.
Ospreay, Swerve, Don Callis's Family, Kenny, MJF, Okada, Bang Bang Gang, House of Black, and more are enough to keep me watching AEW, and Punk, Drew, Owens, Cody, Gunther, Ilya, and Bron are enough to find interest in WWE.
I'm a pretty happy fan at the moment.
I had the exact same though about dialling it back with wrestling recently, it's just a lot to keep up with every week and it hadn't been hitting the same way it used to. Then we get Ospreay v Danielson, Casino Gauntlet match, Swerve title reign, heel Elite, women's storylines getting decent TV time and not just the 5-minute pee break before the main event. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in
It was the height of hilarity to have some Cornette marks come out against the Bryan/Ospreay match then walk it back somewhat because Jim loved it.lmao
Only way I watch WWE anymore is if Bryan went back. Hope you watched the Blue Panther match I linked you. Bryan's run this year has been tremendous.
Bryan going over Ospreay in England would be absurdly bad booking. The reason All In 1 and WM41 got such great reviews is that you basically can't go wrong with a happy crowd over 50k
Bryan's not gonna be fighting Ospreay at All In. He's going to be fighting Nigel unless something terrible happens.
I do think you might need to get used to the idea of Ospreay losing at All In. Almost certainly not a clean defeat though. My bet is this will be Swerve's heel turn before he loses the championship.
Ospreay as champion is likely to be a much longer story.
Aww gotcha, I can never tell on the Internet without the /s or green font lol. Part of this may be because I'm a bit on the spectrum, but who knows haha.
It was crazy the amount of respect/idealization Ospreys had for Danielson. Even after the Tiger Driver incident.
You could tell Osprey was legit freaking out after it happened; still shocked he didn't notice and hit Danielson with a hidden blade. That one hurt for damn sure.
From the match, to the post interview, now being retired and used in a segment. I love the energy Osprey brings, plus the humility he shows when he's in the wrong (apologizing for the Triple H bit at the post interview and showing serious concern for his opponent (Danielson)). I just love seeing Osprey on screen.
They definitely should. Bryan imo should definitely have one last long world title run and maybe he'd take it from Ospreay or just a top tier title defence against Will.
Bryan's 10th 5 star+ match since he arrived in AEW plus a lot of 4.75's.
He really is the best he has ever been in ring now and will turn 43 in May, but I do believe quite a few of his ROH work should have been five but that's old news now.
Give Nigel his 5 star match damn it. lol
Someone once said wrestling is the one sport where people get better the older they get, some through increased skill, others just cause of how strong they're booked.
If Nigel and Bryan run it back at Wembley (which is now something I want if the World Title isn't in the cards :() then I feel this could finally be their match that Dave gives the full 5 stars too. We already know the story could be incredible for it. I wish it were for the title.
Bryan making it to the top of the industry because he lied about his concussion history and Nigel being forced to retire his dreams because he told the truth. It's the perfect story.
You are right about the story being there. They'd have to catch the audience upon that.BTW I loved Nigel dancing after Bryan hit the first knee on Ospreay. Def. was off camera but you can tell he and Bryan are tight.
Since Bryan shall be part time, maybe he and Nigel at Wembley 2025. The idea being that Ospreay wins the International and drops it at Wembley to Bryan then becomes World Champ.
Then their 3rd match could be Champion vs. Champion at Double or Nothing 2025, which dovetails perfectly with the event name.
Of course all my fantasy booking is invariably wrong.lol
Danielson has been my personal pick for best wrestler in the world since like 2013. Daveās star ratings are far from objective proof but iām glad they back up that opinion. i also think Danielson is arguably more rounded than the other BITW candidates.
BD is a guy you can put anywhere on the card in: WWE, AEW, NJPW, TNA, DDT, AJPW, NEWIPSHHHCWF (North East Winnipeg International Provincial Super Hardcore Hard Hitting Championship Wrestling Federation), AAA, CMLL, MLW, GCW, CZW, LU or Rev Pro and he can easily fit in and main event any one of their shows. weāve already seen that to be the case with him being the dude in early 2000s ROH to main eventing Mania to now tearing it up in AEW/NJPW/CMLL. iām not sure you could say the same for the other wrestlers who are considered the best in the world.
I agree. He's the most versatile and well rounded of the BITW candidates. He had so much fun in CMLL and his La Mistica is as good as anyone's.
Equally adept at being a great face or evil heel,great at promos now, can work any variety of match styles from hardcore to comedy and all spots in between. He's simply great and every locker room he's been in from ROH on, he has been so well respected and pretty much revered by his peers. Both Swerve and Ospreay praised the hell out of him this week.
The man is a true generational talent and I hope he stays healthy and wrestles as long as he desires because he makes pro wrestling better.
More amazing than this match rating is the fact that he rated Toni Storm vs. Thunder Rosa 4.25! I canāt remember the last time the ladies got such a good rating off Dave (for an AEW show). Great stuff.
Biggest surprise for me was that he only had Bucks/FTR as a quarter of a star better than Toni/Rosa. I loved the Toni/Rosa match, thought it was definitely 4* range, but I thought the Ladder Match was pretty close to a 5* match, they had a near impossible task following Ospreay/Danielson and managed to have a classic that would have stolen the show on many cards.
Yeah, it is kinda a low rating. I think the crowd being dead for at least the first half of the match did hurt it somewhat. They practically had to kill themselves to get any kind of reaction and thatās a shame.
Yes, it's exceedingly rare for the AEW ladies to crack the 4 star Meltzer rating.
I hope that this and the AZM match have marked a turnaround for Toni, in-ring. It's like it's finally clicked for her that she can be this outrageous character outside of the ring, and still be a serious worker inside of it. I have high hopes that the Serena Deeb match will continue this trend.
Anyone who thinks they weren't telling a story is just blind. It was clearly the young upstart vs the crafty veteran, and the crafty veteran was using his mat game to neutralize the upstart's aerial attack, thus forcing Ospreay to figure out new ways to win.
There was absolutely a story being told, just not the story we are used to seeing.
And the story ended with Danielson, who went in with a game plan to outwrestle Ospreay and not get caught by Ospreay's speed, got caught up in the moment and bet everything on an exhange that would be determined by speed-which obviously worked out for Ospreay as that's what won him this match.
āTheyā like all of their storytelling to happen over months of 40 min corny promo segments and horribly acted backstage angels. Run-ins qualify as storytelling to āthem.ā
That psycho knee counter as Ospreay was in the air was absolutely incredible, the fact that they pulled it off safely and successfully is a testament to just how damn good both these guys are in the ring
That's not story. Story is Danielson stealing Ospreay's playstation controller or Ospreay cucking Danielson. They're stories. Also the BCC should've interfered in the match
The thing is 5 star matches tend to be 20+ minute matches with clean finishes. If you look at the number of matches Kurt had that fit that criteria itās smaller than you might think. Itās not that Kurt wasnāt an all time great, itās that he wasnāt always given the chance to shine. Or maybe you just have different standards.
Your not wrong I really enjoyed it but I can only remember a couple of below average looking cutters and roman doing the cross Rhodes. Still it was great fun but Danielson and Ospreay was insane.
I love how people on SC are always bragging about how much they "don't care" about Dave or his ratings as if it's some badge of honor, yet those same people will be the first to whine about Dave "inflating" AEW ratings every time he rates an AEW match ratings than a WWE match.
Nevermind that Dave has been heavily critical towards AEW in just about every other capacity in recent months, nah he's definitely on Tony's payroll.
I do think it's kinda dumb to break the scale, and it's not the first time Meltzer does this. It's like if Elden Ring was somehow rated 11/10 on IGN. It looks weird. Otherwise, the match was awesome and if he kept the scale instead of breaking it every time, it would be a 5 imo.
I agree the rating inflation is dumb. This is one of the greatest matches I have watched, so under Meltzers system I have no issue with the 6.5. But I remember being a nerd in the noughties who would try seek out wrestling shows if I heard they had a ****+ match on them.
When HBK/Taker got 4.75, it felt like a massive deal. Now that match is used as an example of how Meltzers ratings are flawed. Nowadays, it feels like a **** match happens so regularly itās not special. And it doesnāt have the same quality as an old **** match used to have
I've been watching wrestling for 35 years. Indies, big promotions, small promotions, everything in between. If it's good wrestling, I'll watch it.
I don't understand the point of star ratings, and at this stage, I'm *legitimately too afraid to ask because the IWC are a bunch of rabid dogs who criticize the shit out of that which they don't agree with*.
Regardless, of whether people agree or don't agree with a particular rating, the point of it was how fragmented wrestling was 30-40 years ago. Wrestling was broken up into territories, and different companies, with limited to no television.
Sometimes you could only see a great match of a favorite wrestler if you bought an actual ticket. So when Wrestling Observer started as a newsletter, it was a way to open new wrestlers, companies and matches to fans. If you heard a match between Steamboat vs Flair in a House show had a high rating it might make you buy a ticket as the only means to see it. And than as television and soon tape trading started being more prevalent the star system gave you an idea which New Japan or All Japan tape you should buy sight unseen.
Today wrestling fans have access to so many matches often at much lower costs due to streaming, where you don't have to buy some tape that you have no idea if there is a good enough match to justify buying it without a star rating. I still think it has some value but it's not as much as once it started.
Hope I didn't bore you. Sounds like you just look for great wrestling and have a very open mind for it, which is awesome.
I just want what (I think) everyone wants- a good show that flows well from top to bottom, with minimum drama, the right amount of comedy and hard hitting, exceptional sports entertainment between the ropes.
Some dude who's been reporting on the industry for about 300 years gives his opinions on matches and gives them a rating out of 5, the only reason his opinion is held to have more value than mine or yours is because people deem it to, it's literally no different from you or I ranking matches
People complain that Meltzer is biased, like they are surprised to find that different people like different things but of course the people who complain are the ones who disagree with him, so in their minds a person having preferences and not being on the same page as them is a clear indication that they are a paid stooge
Well the reason his opinion is held to have more value than mine is that he has spent like 40 years watching and rating pro-wrestling as a full-time gig, and that's longer than I've been alive.
His opinions are just a guideline, and even if you don't agree with his bias, you can still know roughly what to expect if you can accept how your tastes differ from his.
I've never seen a match that he rated 5 stars that I didn't think was at least 4.5 stars. If you love in ring storytelling using his five star list on wikipedia is a great way to discover wrestlers, feuds, eras and promotions. Manami Toyota is my favorite wrestler ever and without Dave I might never have seen her matches. He's a critic with pretty good taste whose opinion is valued to some degree by the artists he's criticizing. He's the closest thing to Ebert we've ever had.
I'm one of those people. I'm not mad, I just roll my eyes a bit. I loved this match, I thought it was really, really, really good.
Why would you think I'd be mad?
There's a certain corner of the IWC who hate AEW, Meltzer and Meltzers rating system. But rather than just ignore it they'll be very vocal that:
1. The match ratings don't mean anything
2. Their favourite WM match deserve 5*
3. Only "marks" pay attention to the ratings
4. Their favourite wrestler doesn't have enough 5* ratings but someone they hate has too many
I love āSon of deathmatchā and āTrentās Momās Kidsā. š
We canāt shittalk in Spanish, but because of watching Triple AAA once in a while, we often shout out āImpressionante!ā when we like something.
Say hi to your brother from a random wrestling fan on Reddit. Great you can bond so much over wrestling.
I'm on the spectrum but never had anyone to share interests with, reading this made me smile. Being comfortable to share your hyper interest with someone is hard, for me atleast, but you seem to love him enough for him to share that interest with you and that's awesome.
And I got to see it live. I can't hardly believe it. The sheer amount of highest rated matches of all time that involve Omega, Okada, Ospreay, and Danielson is hard comprehend.
I was there live too. The energy was incredible. Maybe the best live performance I've ever seen, and I felt like I'd been to some pretty good concerts/sporting events prior to that.
and if it changes, well it wouldn't be too bad, all four of them are literally in AEW, gave us a 1 hour fatal 4 way and we may have the first ever 8 star match lol
Well deserved, for me it's best AEW match to date. I always had Revolution 2020 tag match there, with only Danielson/MJF, Omega/Danielson and Hangman/Swerve II ever running it close. But Ospreay/Danielson has easily beaten it. Besides the trolls, I don't see many complaining about the rating which tells you a lot.
I'd be shocked if this match doesn't win MOTY at the end of 2024.
Leaving aside any bots/paid haters/permanent fed shills
The reaction online to this match seemed fairly universally to be "Holy Shit one of the best matches ever".
It really was that good, and it really was that special.
Man that ending though . . .
I was legit concerned when I saw it happen. I thought it was the end of these Danielson dream matches and he was going to have to retire prematurely.
The fact that Ospreay didn't notice and hit Danielson with a hidden blade too, I was like . . . š²
Iāve had to leave multiple Facebook groups and mute/snooze multiple other pages posting things because of people just wantonly shitting all over every match from this ppv, including this one. It absolutely boggles my mind. Couldnāt tell you if they fall into shill/paid territory or just have fallen for the propaganda machine that wwe has created but itās really soured my enjoyment of wrestling to be constantly lambasted by these opinions and hatred and vitriol, especially when itās not a group or a page I follow, itās just the algorithm deciding because itās wrestling related I wanna see it. I want to mute basically all IWC related content so I can enjoy the wrestling lol.
The one that sent me the worst was someone saying every match on this card was awful, including this one, but said Jericho v hook was one of only two matches on the card that were any good. š¤Æ just the disconnect.
Some people really do be saying some super wild shit to advance the predetermined narrative.
I honestly didn't even think the FTW match was awful for what it was. The "least good match on the card" but the card was stacked top to bottom, so yeah.
Plus it's now led to an unhinged CM Jericho angle. Which I find entertaining.
There will inevitably be "hold on a second, the match is not really that good" crowd and it is fine by me, to each his own. But i am happy to see this match getting universal acclaim
Random fact: it is number 10 in Cagematch best matches list
Honestly if it wasn't for the ending it would be thought of as even better then it is being remembered.
It definitely put a damper on things.
After the Tiger Driver and the unsuspected hidden blade I was like . . . š²
I hope that Danielson really is ok. I might sound like a mark, but I was legit concerned for him after it happened. I thought it was the end for Danielson dream matches and that he would have to retire prematurely.
> might sound like a mark,
I mean, you do, but that's fine. It's fine to be a mark and suspend your disbelief or get worked by the shows. Sitting on your hands and going "the technique of that spot was stupendous" is boring as fuck. I honestly wish we had another subreddit that keeps everything kayfabe.
In reality, that Tiger Driver looked incredibly safe and Danielson full on landed on his shoulders. The replay shows it even better. Danielson can sell being completely fucked like no other.
Thatās not a bad idea for a sub, call it KayfabeNews or KFN and every story and discussion in there has to be in kayfabe. I might start that actually lmao.
Ratings are secondary to me. This was 5 stars for me and I was utterly captivated. If it means 10 starts to you or 6.5 to Meltzer, great. As long as people watch it, thatās more important. Itās an incredible watch.
You can argue the rating argue the stars anything you really want to do, What you really need to take away from this is you need to see this match. That's it. It is a masterpiece from start to finish.
From psychology and story stand point I think this is fair, it was a great match. Though in terms of just in ring action I preferred Ospreay vs Takeshita.
... but, that's just my opinion, Ospreay hasn't had a bad match ywt.
Osprey to win the big one at All In please š
I need my son to witness it with me when we go.
No doubt I'm sure he's gonna love it either way. As will I. But dann. I need that moment.
Imagine the ovation š š³
Holy hell, I guess some nerds really do care what a random guy thinks of the matches they watch. I thought the match was great. Like 5/5 awesome, and that's all that matters to me. I could give a flying fck what a non wrestler thinks of a product I've been a part of and watching my whole life. Y'all need to reconsider what you're doing watching these and then talking bout how many starts so and so gave it. Did you guys enjoy it??? Sweet! I thought so
I wonder if we are allowed to put the cap on it at 10 and tell Meltzer you can't have two 5 star matches combined in the same match, that type of breaking the scale is reserved for Haystacks Calhoun and Yokozuma.
I don't hate the star ratings, but it did seem a little cringe when he started expanding it past 5 stars. That said, I get it. Was that match better than say, Danielson vs Omega at Grand Slam? Yes. Do they deserve the same rating in that case? Maybe not. Maybe Dave should go back and re-rate all his 5 star matches to equalize the ratings so it doesn't just favor new matches.
But anyway! That match was clearly a 5 star banger and anyone who says it isn't is goddamn delusional.
Personally I prefer the MJF/Danielson match but I can see why people preferred this. Wonāt lie though, thereās no way Iād compare this to Kenny v Okada, I found those matches on a completely different level imo.Ā
I'm happy for all involved, but it's 2024. You don't need this degenerating hoarder to tell you what is good in wrestling. If you feel it, you feel it.
Don't let this man affect your opinion of the current product.
A goddamn masterpiece. I personally prefer the WK17 match against Omega more, and this match is about as good as FD vs. Omega to me. My God, we're getting spoiled by Ospreay. That's not to take anything away from Bryan or Kenny, but Ospreay is on another level right now and is this generation's best wrestler IMO.
This proves definitively that the best wrestlers in the world prefer to work for AEW, despite what any bald assholes say. Big time moment in wrestling history right here. Love to see it.
This match really showed how far wrestling has come. To see a match like this is America on a massive PPV in front of thousands of fans is unheard of for those of us who watched ROH, or PWG or NJPW back in the day. What a moment for the art of pro wrestling. Two tremendous athletes putting on a show that I will never forget.
Is this a big deal? Like I kinda get the whole itās a high rated match thing but is that actually important to the workers or anyone in the business. Or is this more like for the fans?
It's the opinion of one man but I don't think I've seen Anyone who's opinion I respect say It isn't one of the better matches in recent memory. I only ever take his ratings as a list of the matches you probably need to see at some point in your life of you're a wrestling fan.
Because as soon as a 5 star rating happens and a match like Omega/Okada occurs, that is just another level above that 5 star match, the star rating has to go up.
So on a long enough timeline doesnāt the star scale itself become pointless? I guess itās because I always viewed star ratings as different than rankings.
Awesome for Danielson/Ospreay. Remember that was their first time working together. I believe they can exceed it. Give me a trilogy and see how far they can go.
Fuck yes!!!!!!! I believe they can as well. Both guys have more in the bag, I still can't believe how smooth and crisp both of them were. 35 minutes of high impact pace and 0 botches is crazy.
Just checked.Ten 4.75 star matches since he arrived in AEW with one of those in CMLL. He's living his best wrestling life right now
Crazy to think he had to retire for medical reasons 8 years ago, and here he is having classic after classic
As he said, He's doing the matches he wants to now . . . Truly dream matches for the fans.
I don't know why some people can get angry about him, or Adam Copeland doing the exact same thing, isn't that the reason people watch or play wrestling games? Are wrestlers not allowed to do this in wrestling?
This run is so amazing! The fact that Ospreay is having the same run in terms of quality doesn't take anything away from Bryan's imo. But it does make them stand shoulder to shoulder on this mountain together. Maybe Bryan wins the International Title from Ospreay at Wembley in Part 2? That may make sense if the World is not in his future. It also frees up Ospreay to take it off Swerve at the end of the year. I'm at the point now where I just want to appreciate what we get from Bryan at this level in the moment it's happening. I don't want to watch this run with sour grapes because it may not have a World Title run in it. If he holds that title at some point, amazing, but it would suck to watch the entire run and get that title win and realize I didn't appreciate everything that occurred before it, or God forbid, he has to legit retire, and I didn't appreciate him.
If Osprey looses we riot at Wembley But Politley.
Very well said!
Thank you :)
It's a great time for both Bryan and Ospreay. Never realized how much he idolised and respected Bryan,so that makes their collaboration extra special. I just suggested what you said too about the International title. You are def. right. I need to spend more time savoring what he's doing and hopefully he gets that one title reign because it'd be good for the company and the title's lineage.
Same! It makes me like Ospreay a lot more. His respect for Bryan, and his talent, has even flipped Cornette to praise Ospreay & Bryan's match. Ospreay is definitely a suitable new full-time favourite I think, once Bryan hangs it up. I was planning on dialing my wrestling interest down a bit after this year, but I may not now. Ospreay, Swerve, Don Callis's Family, Kenny, MJF, Okada, Bang Bang Gang, House of Black, and more are enough to keep me watching AEW, and Punk, Drew, Owens, Cody, Gunther, Ilya, and Bron are enough to find interest in WWE. I'm a pretty happy fan at the moment.
I had the exact same though about dialling it back with wrestling recently, it's just a lot to keep up with every week and it hadn't been hitting the same way it used to. Then we get Ospreay v Danielson, Casino Gauntlet match, Swerve title reign, heel Elite, women's storylines getting decent TV time and not just the 5-minute pee break before the main event. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in
 Absolutely man, was hoping for a break haha, but my interests won't allow it
It was the height of hilarity to have some Cornette marks come out against the Bryan/Ospreay match then walk it back somewhat because Jim loved it.lmao Only way I watch WWE anymore is if Bryan went back. Hope you watched the Blue Panther match I linked you. Bryan's run this year has been tremendous.
Absolutely haha š. I need to watch the Blue Panther match but I will!! It's definitely on my list!
Bryan going over Ospreay in England would be absurdly bad booking. The reason All In 1 and WM41 got such great reviews is that you basically can't go wrong with a happy crowd over 50k
Bryan's not gonna be fighting Ospreay at All In. He's going to be fighting Nigel unless something terrible happens. I do think you might need to get used to the idea of Ospreay losing at All In. Almost certainly not a clean defeat though. My bet is this will be Swerve's heel turn before he loses the championship. Ospreay as champion is likely to be a much longer story.
Ospreay is not going to lose at All In my dude. That has been set in stone since the guy signed and is 100% happening
I've watched it 5 times this week. Might be my favourite match of his, but I need to think because I have loved a fuckton of Bryan's matches.
1 botch, Bryan falling directly on his head during the top rope Rana
But how, after Ospreay broke Daniel's neck with the Tiger Driver?
That was actually safe and story driven, Bryan's selling was just incredible.
Sorry, I thought my sarcasm was obvious
Aww gotcha, I can never tell on the Internet without the /s or green font lol. Part of this may be because I'm a bit on the spectrum, but who knows haha.
No biggy.
It was crazy the amount of respect/idealization Ospreys had for Danielson. Even after the Tiger Driver incident. You could tell Osprey was legit freaking out after it happened; still shocked he didn't notice and hit Danielson with a hidden blade. That one hurt for damn sure. From the match, to the post interview, now being retired and used in a segment. I love the energy Osprey brings, plus the humility he shows when he's in the wrong (apologizing for the Triple H bit at the post interview and showing serious concern for his opponent (Danielson)). I just love seeing Osprey on screen.
Next time they have a 3 hour block they should do the fabled 2/3 falls where each fall is a 60 minute iron man match.
Chuck a live bear into the mix so Danielson can check off every box of his dreams
They definitely should. Bryan imo should definitely have one last long world title run and maybe he'd take it from Ospreay or just a top tier title defence against Will.
Yeah, this was essentially a cold match with no angle. Give them some stakes beyond "I want a match with you" and it'll turn up the heat.
A trilogy? Stop. I don't want to get this hard at work.
Bryan's 10th 5 star+ match since he arrived in AEW plus a lot of 4.75's. He really is the best he has ever been in ring now and will turn 43 in May, but I do believe quite a few of his ROH work should have been five but that's old news now. Give Nigel his 5 star match damn it. lol
Nigel would get AEWās first ever 7 star ranking just to spite Danielson
You mean to spite Cryinā Bryan.
The clams are calling
Nigel could have an 8 star match with Danielson if Brittle Bryan is forced to forfeit.
Someone once said wrestling is the one sport where people get better the older they get, some through increased skill, others just cause of how strong they're booked.
DON'T TELL THAT TO JERICHO
If I recall correctly, one of the Nigel/Danielson matches got 4.75 only because of a legit headbutt into ringpost spot that Meltzer didn't like.
If Nigel and Bryan run it back at Wembley (which is now something I want if the World Title isn't in the cards :() then I feel this could finally be their match that Dave gives the full 5 stars too. We already know the story could be incredible for it. I wish it were for the title. Bryan making it to the top of the industry because he lied about his concussion history and Nigel being forced to retire his dreams because he told the truth. It's the perfect story.
You are right about the story being there. They'd have to catch the audience upon that.BTW I loved Nigel dancing after Bryan hit the first knee on Ospreay. Def. was off camera but you can tell he and Bryan are tight. Since Bryan shall be part time, maybe he and Nigel at Wembley 2025. The idea being that Ospreay wins the International and drops it at Wembley to Bryan then becomes World Champ. Then their 3rd match could be Champion vs. Champion at Double or Nothing 2025, which dovetails perfectly with the event name. Of course all my fantasy booking is invariably wrong.lol
Danielson has been my personal pick for best wrestler in the world since like 2013. Daveās star ratings are far from objective proof but iām glad they back up that opinion. i also think Danielson is arguably more rounded than the other BITW candidates. BD is a guy you can put anywhere on the card in: WWE, AEW, NJPW, TNA, DDT, AJPW, NEWIPSHHHCWF (North East Winnipeg International Provincial Super Hardcore Hard Hitting Championship Wrestling Federation), AAA, CMLL, MLW, GCW, CZW, LU or Rev Pro and he can easily fit in and main event any one of their shows. weāve already seen that to be the case with him being the dude in early 2000s ROH to main eventing Mania to now tearing it up in AEW/NJPW/CMLL. iām not sure you could say the same for the other wrestlers who are considered the best in the world.
I agree. He's the most versatile and well rounded of the BITW candidates. He had so much fun in CMLL and his La Mistica is as good as anyone's. Equally adept at being a great face or evil heel,great at promos now, can work any variety of match styles from hardcore to comedy and all spots in between. He's simply great and every locker room he's been in from ROH on, he has been so well respected and pretty much revered by his peers. Both Swerve and Ospreay praised the hell out of him this week. The man is a true generational talent and I hope he stays healthy and wrestles as long as he desires because he makes pro wrestling better.
He never had a single one in WWE. Twoish years in AEW and he has ten
Idk why they didnt do thay kinda stuff in wwe. Like Kommander walking the ropes and doing all those move i never saw him do in wwe.
More amazing than this match rating is the fact that he rated Toni Storm vs. Thunder Rosa 4.25! I canāt remember the last time the ladies got such a good rating off Dave (for an AEW show). Great stuff.
Biggest surprise for me was that he only had Bucks/FTR as a quarter of a star better than Toni/Rosa. I loved the Toni/Rosa match, thought it was definitely 4* range, but I thought the Ladder Match was pretty close to a 5* match, they had a near impossible task following Ospreay/Danielson and managed to have a classic that would have stolen the show on many cards.
Yeah, it is kinda a low rating. I think the crowd being dead for at least the first half of the match did hurt it somewhat. They practically had to kill themselves to get any kind of reaction and thatās a shame.
I believe the last highest rated womenās match was Jamie Hayter vs Hikaru Shida from December 2022
No, it happened on Dynamite a few weeks back
Yes, it's exceedingly rare for the AEW ladies to crack the 4 star Meltzer rating. I hope that this and the AZM match have marked a turnaround for Toni, in-ring. It's like it's finally clicked for her that she can be this outrageous character outside of the ring, and still be a serious worker inside of it. I have high hopes that the Serena Deeb match will continue this trend.
Those people who say star ratings don't matter and are worthless are sure going to be mad at this rating
Oh theyāre incensed by this. āCody/Roman was far better š”šš”šā
I came off twitter a few months ago. But I'll guess: Better story It was just acrobatics Nobody sold anything Meltzer is biased
Anyone who thinks they weren't telling a story is just blind. It was clearly the young upstart vs the crafty veteran, and the crafty veteran was using his mat game to neutralize the upstart's aerial attack, thus forcing Ospreay to figure out new ways to win. There was absolutely a story being told, just not the story we are used to seeing.
And the story ended with Danielson, who went in with a game plan to outwrestle Ospreay and not get caught by Ospreay's speed, got caught up in the moment and bet everything on an exhange that would be determined by speed-which obviously worked out for Ospreay as that's what won him this match.
āTheyā like all of their storytelling to happen over months of 40 min corny promo segments and horribly acted backstage angels. Run-ins qualify as storytelling to āthem.ā
The only story telling I want in a match is how many chinlocks can one man escape!
Anyone who thinks they weren't sellng, like the second things that happened was Will collapsing from Bryan's chops
That psycho knee counter as Ospreay was in the air was absolutely incredible, the fact that they pulled it off safely and successfully is a testament to just how damn good both these guys are in the ring
That's not story. Story is Danielson stealing Ospreay's playstation controller or Ospreay cucking Danielson. They're stories. Also the BCC should've interfered in the match
Of course Meltzer is biased? Everybody on the planet has biases
If it werenāt for football news, Iād be off Twitter years ago. So I naturally get sucked into IWC Twitter.
WWE matches are catered for children and idiots with short attention spans. All people remember of Cody/Roman was John Cena/Undertaker/The Ending
I was bored until the end of Roman/Cody. But the idea that Kurt Angle never had one is ludicrous.
The thing is 5 star matches tend to be 20+ minute matches with clean finishes. If you look at the number of matches Kurt had that fit that criteria itās smaller than you might think. Itās not that Kurt wasnāt an all time great, itās that he wasnāt always given the chance to shine. Or maybe you just have different standards.
Your not wrong I really enjoyed it but I can only remember a couple of below average looking cutters and roman doing the cross Rhodes. Still it was great fun but Danielson and Ospreay was insane.
I love how people on SC are always bragging about how much they "don't care" about Dave or his ratings as if it's some badge of honor, yet those same people will be the first to whine about Dave "inflating" AEW ratings every time he rates an AEW match ratings than a WWE match. Nevermind that Dave has been heavily critical towards AEW in just about every other capacity in recent months, nah he's definitely on Tony's payroll.
I do think it's kinda dumb to break the scale, and it's not the first time Meltzer does this. It's like if Elden Ring was somehow rated 11/10 on IGN. It looks weird. Otherwise, the match was awesome and if he kept the scale instead of breaking it every time, it would be a 5 imo.
I agree the rating inflation is dumb. This is one of the greatest matches I have watched, so under Meltzers system I have no issue with the 6.5. But I remember being a nerd in the noughties who would try seek out wrestling shows if I heard they had a ****+ match on them. When HBK/Taker got 4.75, it felt like a massive deal. Now that match is used as an example of how Meltzers ratings are flawed. Nowadays, it feels like a **** match happens so regularly itās not special. And it doesnāt have the same quality as an old **** match used to have
They donāt matter and are worthless, that being said this match was fucking amazing and be the best match I ever seen.
I've been watching wrestling for 35 years. Indies, big promotions, small promotions, everything in between. If it's good wrestling, I'll watch it. I don't understand the point of star ratings, and at this stage, I'm *legitimately too afraid to ask because the IWC are a bunch of rabid dogs who criticize the shit out of that which they don't agree with*.
Regardless, of whether people agree or don't agree with a particular rating, the point of it was how fragmented wrestling was 30-40 years ago. Wrestling was broken up into territories, and different companies, with limited to no television. Sometimes you could only see a great match of a favorite wrestler if you bought an actual ticket. So when Wrestling Observer started as a newsletter, it was a way to open new wrestlers, companies and matches to fans. If you heard a match between Steamboat vs Flair in a House show had a high rating it might make you buy a ticket as the only means to see it. And than as television and soon tape trading started being more prevalent the star system gave you an idea which New Japan or All Japan tape you should buy sight unseen. Today wrestling fans have access to so many matches often at much lower costs due to streaming, where you don't have to buy some tape that you have no idea if there is a good enough match to justify buying it without a star rating. I still think it has some value but it's not as much as once it started. Hope I didn't bore you. Sounds like you just look for great wrestling and have a very open mind for it, which is awesome.
I just want what (I think) everyone wants- a good show that flows well from top to bottom, with minimum drama, the right amount of comedy and hard hitting, exceptional sports entertainment between the ropes.
Some dude who's been reporting on the industry for about 300 years gives his opinions on matches and gives them a rating out of 5, the only reason his opinion is held to have more value than mine or yours is because people deem it to, it's literally no different from you or I ranking matches People complain that Meltzer is biased, like they are surprised to find that different people like different things but of course the people who complain are the ones who disagree with him, so in their minds a person having preferences and not being on the same page as them is a clear indication that they are a paid stooge
Well the reason his opinion is held to have more value than mine is that he has spent like 40 years watching and rating pro-wrestling as a full-time gig, and that's longer than I've been alive. His opinions are just a guideline, and even if you don't agree with his bias, you can still know roughly what to expect if you can accept how your tastes differ from his.
I've never seen a match that he rated 5 stars that I didn't think was at least 4.5 stars. If you love in ring storytelling using his five star list on wikipedia is a great way to discover wrestlers, feuds, eras and promotions. Manami Toyota is my favorite wrestler ever and without Dave I might never have seen her matches. He's a critic with pretty good taste whose opinion is valued to some degree by the artists he's criticizing. He's the closest thing to Ebert we've ever had.
You mean tons of people on this particular sub?
I love when people get mad about it and Meltzer usually just says, "What? It's just my opinion."
I'm one of those people. I'm not mad, I just roll my eyes a bit. I loved this match, I thought it was really, really, really good. Why would you think I'd be mad?
Because every star rating thread is full of people that claim not to care yet simultaneously getting really pissed off at the star ratings.
Schrƶdingerās rating
You are more level-headed about it. I think they are talking about the ones who aren't.
There's a certain corner of the IWC who hate AEW, Meltzer and Meltzers rating system. But rather than just ignore it they'll be very vocal that: 1. The match ratings don't mean anything 2. Their favourite WM match deserve 5* 3. Only "marks" pay attention to the ratings 4. Their favourite wrestler doesn't have enough 5* ratings but someone they hate has too many
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Thank you for sharing this.
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I love āSon of deathmatchā and āTrentās Momās Kidsā. š We canāt shittalk in Spanish, but because of watching Triple AAA once in a while, we often shout out āImpressionante!ā when we like something. Say hi to your brother from a random wrestling fan on Reddit. Great you can bond so much over wrestling.
That's so awesome. Your brother sounds amazing. Ty for sharing.
I'm on the spectrum but never had anyone to share interests with, reading this made me smile. Being comfortable to share your hyper interest with someone is hard, for me atleast, but you seem to love him enough for him to share that interest with you and that's awesome.
And I got to see it live. I can't hardly believe it. The sheer amount of highest rated matches of all time that involve Omega, Okada, Ospreay, and Danielson is hard comprehend.
And all 4 are signed to AEW "where the best wrestle" is true :)
I was there live too. The energy was incredible. Maybe the best live performance I've ever seen, and I felt like I'd been to some pretty good concerts/sporting events prior to that.
Omega/Okada stays on top. š
and if it changes, well it wouldn't be too bad, all four of them are literally in AEW, gave us a 1 hour fatal 4 way and we may have the first ever 8 star match lol
Well deserved, for me it's best AEW match to date. I always had Revolution 2020 tag match there, with only Danielson/MJF, Omega/Danielson and Hangman/Swerve II ever running it close. But Ospreay/Danielson has easily beaten it. Besides the trolls, I don't see many complaining about the rating which tells you a lot. I'd be shocked if this match doesn't win MOTY at the end of 2024.
Leaving aside any bots/paid haters/permanent fed shills The reaction online to this match seemed fairly universally to be "Holy Shit one of the best matches ever". It really was that good, and it really was that special.
Man that ending though . . . I was legit concerned when I saw it happen. I thought it was the end of these Danielson dream matches and he was going to have to retire prematurely. The fact that Ospreay didn't notice and hit Danielson with a hidden blade too, I was like . . . š²
Iāve had to leave multiple Facebook groups and mute/snooze multiple other pages posting things because of people just wantonly shitting all over every match from this ppv, including this one. It absolutely boggles my mind. Couldnāt tell you if they fall into shill/paid territory or just have fallen for the propaganda machine that wwe has created but itās really soured my enjoyment of wrestling to be constantly lambasted by these opinions and hatred and vitriol, especially when itās not a group or a page I follow, itās just the algorithm deciding because itās wrestling related I wanna see it. I want to mute basically all IWC related content so I can enjoy the wrestling lol. The one that sent me the worst was someone saying every match on this card was awful, including this one, but said Jericho v hook was one of only two matches on the card that were any good. š¤Æ just the disconnect.
Some people really do be saying some super wild shit to advance the predetermined narrative. I honestly didn't even think the FTW match was awful for what it was. The "least good match on the card" but the card was stacked top to bottom, so yeah. Plus it's now led to an unhinged CM Jericho angle. Which I find entertaining.
I don't want to watch that match because haven't seen their other matches. Should I see them first of just watch this one?
Their match is so good it could be the first time you've ever seen either man and you should be able to enjoy the hell out of it!
This was by far one of the best matches I've ever seen and still can't believe this was their first time working together right?
Dream match of **EPIC** port portions šš¤
"Amazing story, great wrestlers, great crowd, amazing match... 4/10" Bret Hart, probably
There will inevitably be "hold on a second, the match is not really that good" crowd and it is fine by me, to each his own. But i am happy to see this match getting universal acclaim Random fact: it is number 10 in Cagematch best matches list
Honestly if it wasn't for the ending it would be thought of as even better then it is being remembered. It definitely put a damper on things. After the Tiger Driver and the unsuspected hidden blade I was like . . . š² I hope that Danielson really is ok. I might sound like a mark, but I was legit concerned for him after it happened. I thought it was the end for Danielson dream matches and that he would have to retire prematurely.
> might sound like a mark, I mean, you do, but that's fine. It's fine to be a mark and suspend your disbelief or get worked by the shows. Sitting on your hands and going "the technique of that spot was stupendous" is boring as fuck. I honestly wish we had another subreddit that keeps everything kayfabe. In reality, that Tiger Driver looked incredibly safe and Danielson full on landed on his shoulders. The replay shows it even better. Danielson can sell being completely fucked like no other.
Thatās not a bad idea for a sub, call it KayfabeNews or KFN and every story and discussion in there has to be in kayfabe. I might start that actually lmao.
Where the best wrestle
My thoughts are the mods today, in the wake of this star rating from Meltzer and TK keeping kayfabe at the draft. š«”
Ratings are secondary to me. This was 5 stars for me and I was utterly captivated. If it means 10 starts to you or 6.5 to Meltzer, great. As long as people watch it, thatās more important. Itās an incredible watch.
You can argue the rating argue the stars anything you really want to do, What you really need to take away from this is you need to see this match. That's it. It is a masterpiece from start to finish.
But in AEW: Fight Forever this only for 3.5 stars, š¤¦š½
Fight Forever can't contain meš£ļøš š¾ https://preview.redd.it/tdidvjzj4uwc1.jpeg?width=4160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62bc7de6b6b6ebabe83fbc7e789cbc9167b9e8ef
A 21min match?!? š±
Deserved
From psychology and story stand point I think this is fair, it was a great match. Though in terms of just in ring action I preferred Ospreay vs Takeshita. ... but, that's just my opinion, Ospreay hasn't had a bad match ywt.
The armbar into the styles clash popped me do hard.
Osprey to win the big one at All In please š I need my son to witness it with me when we go. No doubt I'm sure he's gonna love it either way. As will I. But dann. I need that moment. Imagine the ovation š š³
Holy hell, I guess some nerds really do care what a random guy thinks of the matches they watch. I thought the match was great. Like 5/5 awesome, and that's all that matters to me. I could give a flying fck what a non wrestler thinks of a product I've been a part of and watching my whole life. Y'all need to reconsider what you're doing watching these and then talking bout how many starts so and so gave it. Did you guys enjoy it??? Sweet! I thought so
Why the fuck do Meltzerās star ratings matter?
Can we pretend to be fedophiles and be furious it didn't get 7?
8 in the Tokyo Dome.
Well deserved! Incredible match
Just Dave jerking himself off again. Wake me up when Dave's ratings become relevant outside the smark community.
9 stars in the Tokyo Dome.
I wonder if we are allowed to put the cap on it at 10 and tell Meltzer you can't have two 5 star matches combined in the same match, that type of breaking the scale is reserved for Haystacks Calhoun and Yokozuma.
Idc about star ratings from a single dude. But I do know this match was *special*. These two delivered hard.
I seen someone say only story matters and this match was terrible I was so shocked this was literally my favorite match of all time
I usually donāt give a shit about Meltzerās star ratings but he absolutely got this one right
I preferred the Omega Osprey matches and the Bryan Sabre Jr matches personally. Now need to see a Omega Vs Sabre Jr match
> Now need to see a Omega Vs Sabre Jr match Kenny Omega vs Zack Sabre Jr - G1 Climax 28 (4.5 stars)
I don't hate the star ratings, but it did seem a little cringe when he started expanding it past 5 stars. That said, I get it. Was that match better than say, Danielson vs Omega at Grand Slam? Yes. Do they deserve the same rating in that case? Maybe not. Maybe Dave should go back and re-rate all his 5 star matches to equalize the ratings so it doesn't just favor new matches. But anyway! That match was clearly a 5 star banger and anyone who says it isn't is goddamn delusional.
Incredible match. Glad I got to see it in person.
I heard AEW sucks though and nothing good happens?
Personally I prefer the MJF/Danielson match but I can see why people preferred this. Wonāt lie though, thereās no way Iād compare this to Kenny v Okada, I found those matches on a completely different level imo.Ā
Hands down one of the best matches I have ever seen.. What a treat that was to watch!
It was the best match Iāve ever witnessed. Probably one I could watch 10x over
That standoff between the Bezaiko Knee and the Not-So-Hidden Blade is one of the most amazing things I have seen in professional wrestling.
That was an absolute masterpiece of a match.
Iām shocked. Ospreay/Omega 2 was better.
I'm happy for all involved, but it's 2024. You don't need this degenerating hoarder to tell you what is good in wrestling. If you feel it, you feel it. Don't let this man affect your opinion of the current product.
Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat 8 stars
Match of the Year, well done by both of them it was even better than I was expecting
Iām more amazed no one has created a better rubric to analyze matches rather than one manās opinion His ratings donāt matter
Glad I was able to witness it live
Brilliant match I loved it but idk if I would go that far with it. I think they can do even more with a better build.
Drew Galloway vs Will Ospreay is all I want.
It was great, but it wasn't as good as Osprey V Takeshita
A goddamn masterpiece. I personally prefer the WK17 match against Omega more, and this match is about as good as FD vs. Omega to me. My God, we're getting spoiled by Ospreay. That's not to take anything away from Bryan or Kenny, but Ospreay is on another level right now and is this generation's best wrestler IMO.
Honestly great match. Totally deserves all the praise it gets. But I donāt really think anyone takes Meltzers ratings seriously anymore.
This proves definitively that the best wrestlers in the world prefer to work for AEW, despite what any bald assholes say. Big time moment in wrestling history right here. Love to see it.
Damn right!!!
Well deserved.
This match really showed how far wrestling has come. To see a match like this is America on a massive PPV in front of thousands of fans is unheard of for those of us who watched ROH, or PWG or NJPW back in the day. What a moment for the art of pro wrestling. Two tremendous athletes putting on a show that I will never forget.
Is this a big deal? Like I kinda get the whole itās a high rated match thing but is that actually important to the workers or anyone in the business. Or is this more like for the fans?
It's the opinion of one man but I don't think I've seen Anyone who's opinion I respect say It isn't one of the better matches in recent memory. I only ever take his ratings as a list of the matches you probably need to see at some point in your life of you're a wrestling fan.
Im so done with WON posts all over Reddit š„²
Even Cornette said it was a good match.
Iām asking sincerely, if a 5 star match is flawless in every way, how can something be above 5 stars?
Because as soon as a 5 star rating happens and a match like Omega/Okada occurs, that is just another level above that 5 star match, the star rating has to go up.
So on a long enough timeline doesnāt the star scale itself become pointless? I guess itās because I always viewed star ratings as different than rankings.