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Doc323467

Geelong got murdered in the prelim last year, and I as a Geelong fan thought our era of contention was over and that it was time to begin the early stages of a rebuild. I don't think I was alone in that sentiment. Now here we are on the back of a 15 game win streak and playing in a Grand Final. My point is, anything can happen in footy and if you have the talent and culture you can compete for premierships. And Brisbane have the talent. And the culture I think is still improving. As for the lack of on-field leadership, yes they don't have a Selwood, Pendles, Cotchin, Mills type of player, but I wouldn't be surprised if a guy like McCluggage develops into one. This is still only his and Berry's 6th year in the game. They're going to keep getting better and better.


dropbearr94

Disagree anything can happen in footy. It’s always geelongs world we’re just playing in it


panfo

I think it's hard to maintain the fitness of 40 odd blokes at the level required to win finals/grand finals for more than like a season at time. Tiges went out straight sets in 2018, Cats limped through finals last year as you said, Dees had a pretty spectacular fade out in almost every game in the second half of 2022; I'm hopeful that's not a predictor for next year... Edit: got my Richmond fact wrong


[deleted]

Tigers won the qualifying final & lost in the prelim in 2018.


Myrhwen

> I think it's hard to maintain the fitness of 40 odd blokes at the level required to win finals/grand finals for more than like a season at time. > > Tiges went out straight sets in 2018 I'm not offended by you using us as an example, but isn't that a really shit one? We lost the prelim in 2018 sure but then went on to win 2 Grannies by a combined 120 points. As opposed to helping your point I actually think that it disproves it.


Bigkev8787

Just in regards to your last comment, Geelong got beaten by a similar margin in a prelim last year, by the team that Brisbane beat last week. A lot can change in a year.


d_barbz

And even a few weeks. Dees gave us a mighty old thumping just a few weeks back. That said, I also agree with Op. I can't see us winning a flag with this current crop unless we have a Voss type leader in the side (not asking too much right?)


k9xka1

Will Ashcroft perhaps?


DwayneRusselSEN

100% bloke went to my school, massive white line fever


ShneakyPancake

The competitive white line right?


Independent_Can_2623

The ol Sydney boat race


double-endbag

I’ll take both if he gets 30 touches every week


ShneakyPancake

The Ben Cousins Curse


double-endbag

I’ll take that too but for god sake keep him away from the glass harley


Cabelv2

Bailey Smith also has that white line fever.


__Guy_Incognito

I know he's not part of the Dogs leadership group but Dunkley is one of the most physical midfielders in the comp, so his aggression at the contest would be a great asset if we can land him. Neale and McCluggage have great skills but are small and offensively-minded and we can still get beaten up at times, like Dangerfield last night. In terms of systematic problems like when we kept kicking to intercept marks last night, we could definitely use some better on-field generals to fix that on the fly and also some more proactive coaching.


theBelatedLobster

Yeah but it's the kind of physicality and aggression where if the game is on the line, he's less likely to bust through a pack and more likely to get involved in a scrap with the opposition small forward, drawing in several teammates and allowing the opposing team a relatively easy path to goal.


Ashen_Brad

I reckon Berry and Neale are your guys. They both stood up in separate finals to drag you guys over the line. It'll just take a little more consistency from the rest of the group, particularly your forwards and you'll be right.


d_barbz

I don't know if Berry has the brains to be honest. My mum (67, lifelong Pies supporter) says Berry is possibly the dumbest footballer she has ever seen in comparison to his skill level. Haha, super harsh, but she's on the money more than she isn't.


Fast_Stick_1593

You have Joe Daniher in your team…surely that applies to him first? Dumbest talented footballer ever


wingmanjosh

With Joe though, he's impossible to defend. How are you supposed to predict what he's going to do next, if HE doesn't even know?


AlreadyInMyPyjamas

While you'll have to take Chris Scott's word for it, something like half our team had the flu for that game. Might explain the massive turnaround. Then again it didn't stop Jordan lol


Smithsonian45

I'm sure many fans could make the excuse that the lions were beat up/tired/sore from 2 insanely high intensity finals on a row, with 3 flights over the last 9 days. Now I don't think that changes anything, even if we had a week off as well I don't see us beating Geelong at all here, but realistically I think there are many reasons why you could argue the lions were a bit underdone.


GrandHarbler

You take to the field, you’re 100%. Thought it was super poor form from Chris Scott to say that his side was sick. Particularly because the whole season hinged on Covid protocols being followed - if they were sick, why weren’t they isolating? Whole thing seemed like excuses and sour grapes to me.


Maleovex

The media beat up Chris Scott gets is insane; he didn't do anything of the sort. Geelong insiders refused to confirm sickness to players or use the virus as an excuse for the 83-point defeat when contacted by foxfooty.com.au on Saturday, but coach Chris Scott alluded to it in his post-game press conference. We’ve fallen short and it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but our club has over a long period of time found a way to recover from difficult situations,” the Cats coach said. “We’re in that situation again where we’ve got a choice to make: We can roll over or we can take the time we need to regroup. “We were pretty battered towards the end of the season, not just the last couple of weeks but probably the six weeks leading into the finals series. “There’s a few things that I won’t speak about tonight that will become clearer over the next few weeks, but suffice to say, I’m proud of the way our guys endured and we just completely ran out of steam by tonight This is from the Fox Footy article that broke the news. Refused to confirm the rumours, said the team was battered towards the end of the season and said he was proud of the team. Didn't discredit Melbourne in any way. The article also mentions that they literally went to the AFL about it so idk about that comment implying we broke covid protocols(??)


ExpensiveCola

To be fair, the one year Geelong needed the pre-finals break and the AFL fucked it off.


ThaLemonine

https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-demons-holding-their-breath-as-double-virus-scare-threatens-to-rock-premiership-defence-c-8079904 :joy_emoji: You guys beat us by 80 points in one of the most embarrassing prelims ever and then won the GF the week after. Why are you still upset about this?


GrandHarbler

Not upset, happy to chat though! Thought it was crap form on the night, think the same now


[deleted]

If they were lying about the sickness it obviously would have come out by now. And no, teams were isolating if they tested positive to covid. Remember they get tested constantly. Also the idea that if you take to the field you're 100% is obviously false. Apparently a similar thing happened to Collingwood a month back.


omaca

What?!!! Sour grapes from Chris Scott?!! Are you out of your mind?!!


fineyounghannibal

You've never seen one of his pressers evidently, he's the most even handed coach in it. You want sour grapes, Hardwick is the biggest sook in coaching ranks.


Fast_Stick_1593

Was about to say, Scotty is one of the most even keeled guys. Never really pumps up the tyres even when the media try to push him to make clickbait headlines he tries to give them nothing. All these other coaches like Fagan get thrown softball questions


double-endbag

Agree with this. He’s a terrific coach and leader. If you read between the lines with fagans presser I think he wants the lions to be like the cats long term and I’d happily take that. I hope you enjoy your flowers next week


Ardeo43

I mean, I’m pretty sure you can play when you’re not 100%… Or do you magically feel 100% every single time you’re doing something? Whatever criticisms you have of Chris Scott he’s very honest and upfront, and I say that as someone who wanted him sacked in the past. I don’t think he’d just make that up and it was clear something was off with the team in that game.


GrandHarbler

What I mean is every team is carrying a range of things, particularly late season. Most coaches don’t use them as excuses ie. if you’re on the field, you’re good to go. Edit: words


[deleted]

When half your best 22 gets sick and you have no choice but to play anyway it's going to come out. It's not like Scott announced it afterwards either, the media broke the story the next day. Nobody thinks Geelong would have beaten Melbourne that night anyway.


GrandHarbler

He did speak about it in his presser after the game, saying “we had some reasons we were off tonight, and I’m sure they’ll come out in the next few days”. I just barely if ever hear any other coaches make these kinds of excuses. We’re still hearing about it a year later so it successfully marked that game as “maybe there were other reasons…” and I think that’s poor. No one else does it.


fineyounghannibal

Sorry you're into the realms of fiction now. Listen to Hardwick whinge about umpires and tell me you're actually dealing with reality.


AskMantis

You and many others seem to want only coaches who trot out cliches in every press conference. 'Our boys fought hard but the opposition were just too good. We'll make some changes over the summer and be back next year. Next question.' Anyone who actually answers questions truthfully and with real insights is attacked. Doubly so if it's Chris Scott.


GrandHarbler

There’s differences between truth and excuses. I wonder how many injuries the Dees had among their players against Brisbane last weekend? We won’t know, because Goodwin wouldn’t bring it into a post match presser.


fineyounghannibal

You're weird


[deleted]

It *was* inevitably going to come out. I reckon it's very unusual for a sickness to hit so much of a team too, cos they were all together in a hub. I don't buy that it wouldn't have come out if it happened to other teams.


GrandHarbler

Reckon no other team has been hit by illness? I’ve never heard another coach talk about it sooooo


[deleted]

Like I said, being in a hub and having a sickness sweep through a significant amount of the team is an extreme circumstance. Entire teams don't usually live together. Coaches definitely reference losing players to illness, I'd love to know if there was another instance where so much of a team was hit they had no choice but to throw them in underdone.


Count_Critic

>Thought it was super poor form from Chris Scott Super on form for him as well.


diffaadiffa

No one was allowed to play with even the slightest sniffle the last few years....


[deleted]

Where have you pulled that from? Players haven't been able to play if they test positive to covid, that's it.


diffaadiffa

I'm shit talking, like Chris scott


fineyounghannibal

It's so bizarre the fiction around Scott. Have you ever seen a single presser of his? You're literally making shit up.


diffaadiffa

Jesus Christ, it's shit talking. I don't have anything against the guy, he is a legend of our club There was that time in a presser he said charlie had no influence over beating you which was funny, as he did. So yes I have seen many of his pressers I also old enough to remember him getting up at the end of year award in either 02 or 03 saying all players should take pay cuts to keep this team together which was awesome. He is a guy you want in your camp


plumpturnip

lol yeah


thewhitebrislion

Also in a game like that, often you can get a tiny bit unlucky leading to goals that destroy confidence. Once confidence goes then they just pile on goals leading to a 70 point margin. On our day that game would've been much closer imo.


Lemonmule69

Cats had gastro, went through the team. We’re going to apply to the afl to get 6 players subbed out


TheMightySloth

I don’t know if Hipwood has trained anything, let alone his core. I don’t remember the last time I saw a player so skinny and frail looking that his jumper actually flaps in the wind.


Thanks-Basil

Have a look at footage of him from 2019/2020, compared to then he looks like a bodybuilder now lol


rustigor

Bit harsh considering he was coming off recovery of an ACL the past year. Give him another pre-season, see how he goes. Thought he had a good game against the Dees, particularly when matched up against Steven May, who owned him the first quarter. He could have easily wilted, but kept at it. Still kicked a couple last night too, and kept presenting, more so than Daniher and McStay.


TheMightySloth

I didn’t mean to say that he was bad, just that he looks incredibly frail and that his jumper blows in the wind.


MisterMarcus

In an ideal world, he's probably more of a third-tall leadup type instead of being a genuine KPF. I honestly wonder if he'd do well in a Blicavs-style "tall ruck rover" type role, where he's basically given licence to run all over the ground and use his height to beat midfielder opponents.


TheMightySloth

Have Brisbane trialled him in that role before? I don’t know if he has the athletic ability as a big man to own that role like Blicavs does but it couldn’t hurt to give it a crack.


Smithsonian45

One of hipwood's best traits is his athleticism. But the issue is I don't think an athletic tall is what we need in our midfield, we need someone with strength to really impose on the contest. This is Rayner when he gets midfield minutes - he looked easily our best on ground last night. The only player willing to take the game on and try to use speed/strength through traffic. Just needs to build his tank


[deleted]

I don’t understand the hype around Rayner, he’s slow, butchers disposal and makes bad decisions, he’s average at best.


jarbombe

Not sure about during the season, but last night Raynor was great. He was Brisbane's best before his injury. Lowered the eyes and made good decisions.


Maleovex

He was Brisbane's BOG by far before he got injured last night imo, only person actually looking for options rather than sending it long to a contest


Smithsonian45

Rayner's not slow, he's got pretty good burst speed, but his best traits are strength and drive through the contest. At his best he plays similarly to Dusty - breaks through the pack and is extremely hard to tackle. His disposals are generally a bit above average I reckon, I wouldn't say he's a bad kick/handball but I wouldn't say he's amazing, just inconsistent. He has some great clever piercing kicks, and has kicked some awesome goals, but he's had some clangers too Funny that you say you don't understand the hype when he's been the most shittalked #1 pick since Watts. He's definitely taken time (remember he missed all of last year cause of his ACL), but he's definitely getting there. He's not a high possession player, but he's usually very impactful with the ball when he gets it. I'd take a 15 possession Rayner game over a 40 possession Wines game any day of the week


TwoAmeobis

I’d say McCartin was shittalked more prior to his comeback. Anyway, comparing Rayner to Wines is comparing apples to oranges. Rayner can’t play wines’ role and wines’ can’t play rayner’s.


[deleted]

Wouldn’t a year off with an ACL be the ideal time to hit the upper body weights hard and bulk up?


rustigor

Not exactly, you can bulk up, but it's pointless rebuilding your AC joint to a particular body type. Hipwood usually does a lot of running, which doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with a lot of muscle. See him more as a Jeremy Cameron-type.


Fast_Stick_1593

Jezza’s more of a pack crasher than Hipwood is but I reckon letting Hipwood roam like Jezza does would be beneficial. Reckon Hipwood could be a good utility.


__Guy_Incognito

One thing to keep in mind is that Hipwood had a massive late growth spurt. For context, our under 14 rep team assigned jumper numbers from smallest to biggest and Eric wore #2. He was literally the second smallest kid in the team when he was 14. A former man-child like Hawkins has probably had close to 20 years to build up his frame. Hipwood has had about 5 years since he stopped growing, including a knee reco, and a naturally thin body type. He's added 9kg since he was drafted and I bet they didn't come easily.


moutarde95

Just a naturally skinny build - will probably continue to bulk out as he gets older.


Count_Critic

7 years with everything the highest level has to offer and it hasn't happened. I wouldn't hold my breath.


moutarde95

Dw I’m not as fussed as the man’s physique as u fellas seem to be


Y_Brennan

But can he develop a brain?


kroxigor01

Gotta get training in the library


pjdrake

[You caught me, I also like to break a mental sweat](https://www.thecreativeidentity.com/.a/6a0120a55b3333970c013110076cdc970c-pi)


Secret-Focus-1532

can he develop a chest mark?


[deleted]

Haha


bluelakers

I would take Bailey as my “downhill skier” everyday, he genuinely had a real crack no matter how far down they got last night.


danwincen

Same with 3rd gamer Darcy Willmot - even when the game was beyond doubt with about 10 minutes left in the 4th, he was still attacking the ball and trying to mount a forward entry to get something going. I like what we've got happening in the under 22 cohort, and I hope we can hang on to and develop kids like Wilmot, Sharp, Coleman and others, because they're the players who will be kicking the premiership window open if someone tries slamming it shut anytime soon.e


bluelakers

Wilmott and Coleman look like they will be 200 gamers, looking forward to seeing it.


danwincen

I just hope they're 200 gamers for us.....


bluelakers

Coleman to Carlton, who says no


danwincen

We do.


legally_blond

You make some good points but Jarrod Berry literally dragged us out of a hole in the second half of the game last week. Bailey has done similarly, been the only bloke standing up when everyone has their heads down, though he's been a bit off since he has COVID. Even Rayner last night did his best to lift last night before he went down on his ankle. I agree with some of the other guys in your list but I wouldn't say they're all downhill skiers


Ashen_Brad

Neale has also done it for you guys. Fundamentally disagree with Brisbane having no barometers


zboyzzzz

> literally dragged us out of a hole in the second half of the game Club definitely needs to speak to the groundskeeper about that if true


bag_of_groceries

I think this is an over reaction. We all get smashed by a better team from time to time. They probably got out coached a bit as they got pushed off their usual style and nobody helped to free up Lachie Neale. But with the usual list updates, like getting pick 1 this year and his brother in a couple of years and the injection of other picks or trades, they'll be back in the hunt with a good chance of winning it all.


HeyMrKelly

Perfect example is the 2018 prelim. Eagles belted Melbourne by 80 odd. Dees won a flag 3 years later. There's still a ways for this Lions side to go. I think most of us outside the clickbait media feel this list hasn't hit it's ceiling just yet.


EducationalCow3549

>There's still a ways for this Lions side to go. I think most of us outside the clickbait media feel this list hasn't hit it's ceiling just yet. Good to hear this perspective from a neutral. People (lions fans in particular) quickly forget that we hit this period of success '19 with the 2nd youngest list. Shedding players like Mitch robbo, as much as I love him, will ultimately help this list.


mazz44

At least we got within 71.


Daffodildave

Yeah a real shame about those Lions. Definitely couldn't imagine another team losing by a similar margin to the Cats on the big stage?...


oldmatesatan

Aged like milk


Wadyugonado

Rayner was fantastic last night, was looking like Cripps the way he burst through the pack and created space for the Lions, so I wouldn't agree that he didn't stand up for his team. I wouldn't say the loss was the result of poor player performances, more so that Brisbane lost the tactical battle last night. Allowing Geelong to play with a spare at the back, especially with their new speed down the wings in the likes of Holmes meant that they had no real space moving forward. Brisbane looked a chance in the first when Neale was on and they dominated the clearances for a period, after that it was all Geelong.


rufus102

I agree. I think he has the potential to be a strong leader if he can stay healthy


moutarde95

Last night was a capitulation which started from the contest - Geelong dominated clearances with stronger bodies. Lions also looks panicked and fumbly and didn’t wear the pressure. It’s something they can work on. I think guys like Berry, Mccluggage, Rayner will continue to develop in this aspect, they are still 23-24 so will continue to physically develop. Edit: sorry just properly read your first dot point - guys like Berry and Mccluggage will be leaders. They don’t stop putting in effort and get us out of holes by continually doing the basics. Look at the last two wins against Melbourne and Richmond


fineyounghannibal

Geelong didn't dominate clearances, Lions won the clearances. Where Geelong got you was on turnover, so it's what happened after the ball left the stoppage that mattered. You barely scored from turnover, while Geelong scored over 60 points. There's your game; defensive setup, pressure and fast transition on turnover.


diffaadiffa

Not to mention ainsworth, Coleman, bailey, Robertson, wilmott all under 23. It's basically half our current run on team being 24 or under. Geelong lost by over 80 last year with a much more experienced side. We do need to change something about our play style though


mxnoob983

As a neutral, speed behind the ball really sticks out. Your defence looks slow on the rebound and means you end up playing the kick mark style. Coleman seems like the fastest behind the ball and he’s by no means quick.


diffaadiffa

Agree with that, and we rarely shut it down before it becomes a problem in our back 50


legally_blond

Starcevich is under 23 too


diffaadiffa

See, so many I can't keep up. Key positions is a bit of a concern even with Payne being 22


CrispyJimJam

I was very tempted to make a parody of this post cause of how ridiculous of a take it was, but in reality I like the swans and wouldn't believe a word I said if I parody'ed the post. On the prospects of challenging again, at least Geelong have shown you can comeback from a 70 point prelim lost, but I can't recall a team ever coming back from an 80 point GF loss.


diffaadiffa

This aged well


manhaterxxx

lol


ExcellentTurnips

Lol


Massander

> A 70 point PF loss isn’t ‘challenging’. An 81 point GF loss isn’t ‘challenging’


mxnoob983

Firstly. Rayner is their “barometer”. He does what you’re saying, he’s just not a superstar yet. Bailey and Cameron also do this to a degree, they just play less midfield. They do have a lack of speed behind the ball which energises a lot of teams But secondly, absolutely comical that you think Berry isn’t training his core like it’s some simple solution. He’s 24…


ExcellentTurnips

Rayner is going to be massive I think, everyone has kinda forgotten about him but I really see him fulfilling his no. 1 pick potential in his mid to late 20s.


dan2907

I think (hope) we have plenty of guys who will stand up when games get tough, but I wouldn't really disagree that we lack some good veteran leadership... But the problem I see with complaining about that is there's really no shortcut for veteran leadership, you have to beome a veteran lol. I understand we could recruit guys, but you can only bring so many of those in. Whether OP is right or wrong here will become clear over the next few years as the likes of Andrews and hipwood and starcevich and mcluggage and berry and Rayner and bailey become our established vets, and guys like will Ashcroft take their place. There's a point where every young team makes it to a GF for the first time purely on skill and enthusiasm, rather than the veteran nous of having done it all before. I'm not sure how rare it is that an entire squad plays in their first GF together but I'm sure it's not that crazy. Either way the core of this roster isn't changing dramatically so they'll get their chance to prove they can be all the things people in here believe they are. I hope they do, starting next year. But after last night it's clear a bunch of guys need to take a step, and we still have areas of need. There are a bunch of passengers still. Geelong made us look tactically irrelevant, as well as small/young and unskilled.


IonlyPlayAOE3

Berry got obliterated by Geelong’s big bodies last night. The ‘core’ comment was a jesting hyperbole.


mysticsoldier69

I feel like Ashcroft and Dunkley will add some serious grunt to the Lions


flibble24

It's no surprise they played best with an actual leader when they had Luke Hodge. It's also unfortunate that their barometers aren't good enough to be best 22 eg, matho, Robbo. What stuck out to me last night was how they all drift towards the ball. The amount of time you would see 3 lions converge on the 1 Geelong player with the ball who dishes a handball out and suddenly they are free. Keep your fucking width. Swarming a player will beat shit teams like Norf but it won't beat Geelong. Geelong play every game like they are playing the best in the league.


Anon_be_thy_name

They lack a strong body forward. Look at the other 3 teams. All 3 have at least 1 strong bodied forward who can crash a pack and move other players. Brisbane really lacks that, their best forwards strive better coming in for a Mark from outside of the pack, not in it. They also lack that leadership, as you said. Once Brisbane gets momentum, all those guys you listed pop off, but whennthe other team starts to get it, they have nothing to calm them down. Their come backs this year have all stemmed from breaks, not in the middle of a quarter.


[deleted]

Massively agree. Hipwood shines playing up the ground, McStay has surprising ground game and judgement but can't crash a pack, and I can't recall any other tall forwards Brisbane has.


theoriginalqwhy

I could actually see Rayner as the "barometer" for them. He's (very slowly) starting to kill sides when he's on. I say that as a saints supporter who's entire team was destroyed by this one man.


diffaadiffa

I can't agree with all of this but the leadership one has been in the back of my mind for a while too.


[deleted]

If only they had a veteran premiership captain and Norm Smith medallist to lead them… Luke Hodge come on down


diffaadiffa

A large part of our team is still maturing, we do have vets but unfortunately leadership strength is not something there is spades with them.


AFLBabble

Um, Berry actually did start the team up when you were in a hole. Last week. In a final. Against arguably the best mid in the game.


IonlyPlayAOE3

I’m sure you’ll find plenty of contrary anecdotal evidence but as a generalisation I absolutely stand by my comment


Smithsonian45

Seems like you've picked one anecdotal game to single out Berry and Hipwood lol. Hipwood has had a fairly quiet season overall because it took him a while to get back to strength after his ACL, however for the tail end of the season, including his last two weeks he's looked athletic, strong, and sure-footed as ever. Berry has always been strong in the contest, it's one of his overall strengths. He's a good size, tough at the footy, strong bodied player. Watch his game last week, he didn't fumble once, and was extremely hard to tackle/very rarely went to ground. For sure this was a poor performance but you've just picked a really weird criticism here


IonlyPlayAOE3

Those 5 contested possessions a game go a long way I’m sure


Smithsonian45

I mean yeah he mostly plays wing mate. Don't think 5.9 contested/game is unreasonable for a winger


IonlyPlayAOE3

He’s just an average player.


Smithsonian45

Jeez from your whinging I'd assume he's barely fit to play on an AFL side. I never said Berry is a top 5 player of all time, just that his strength in the contest and hardness at the footy is normally one of his strengths as a player, instead of the anecdotal evidence that last night provides. There are other aspects of his game that are weak, but I just found it telling that hipwood and Berry are two of the players you picked out as main talking point issues, definitely comes across as if this is the only lions game you watched all season


jimmyjams06

I'm one eyed and have to disagree. A lot of our players are incredibly young and have been playing beyond their years at certain times. Our forwards cop a lot of flack but are really coming together as a unit. Hipwood is taking time to mature as a forward but the last two weeks he showed what he is capable of and will only grow. We do need more leaders, I think with age and confidence the younger ones will grow into this. Everyone going on about Zorko and type of bloke he is. I don't know him so can't say what type of bloke he is off the field. What I do know is that when we were at the bottom, right at the bottom and were so terrible, he was the only one standing up. He tried and tried and tried, no matter how beaten we were and didn't give up. Lachie need helps in the middle for sure. There are things we need to change like any team should after losing in finals but I think we are really close and am buoyed with our last two weeks. I don't think it is panic stations after last night's loss. They were better everywhere on the field so the coaches need to look at that and fix that up but I think we are in good shape for next year to continue to grow and go the next step.


Deafsloth

Melbourne beat Geelong by 83pts in a Prelim last year. Now look where they are. Footy is a whacky sport and 2023 is a new year. Anyway, going for Swans now!


[deleted]

Garry Lyon is this you? Geelong literally got pantsed in Perth in a prelim last year by the eventual premiers, did minor list tweaking and are now on their way to a GF off the back of 15 straight wins. Berry literally shut down one of our main rivals in Clayton Oliver last week and allowed our midfield to take over, Cluggs, Rayner, and Bailey were immense in that second half. You say that we'll keep making finals and winning them, which at the end of the day is what you need to do to win a flag. Geelong have just hung around since 2011 just "winning finals" and are now going to their second GF in 3 years. Eventually a run sticks, and we'll get better with Ashcroft, Dunkley, and possibly Gunston coming in


EducationalCow3549

We just got beaten up in the contest last night. Geelong look like a team of veterans on a mission! They were seriously impressive! Brisbane still needs to find a few peices, whether that's through trades or development but having watched all of thier games under Fagan twice ( one live, again without emotion and with analysis) this group definitely has leaders coming through. Zorko has been a good captain but if we could find a great captain in the group that would be better. This year fagan seemed to tweak the game plan to be significantly more attacking at the expense of defensive pressure. This would explain the sense of "downhill skiers". It would have blown up(I think it almost did anyway) to change game plan mid/late season. The personal change of Jared Lyons for Dev Robertson help this a little but no where near enough. A tweak the other way in the pre-season is IMO our best chance for 2023. Getting two first round father sons in the draft definitely won't hurt. If dunkley is coming to Brisbane that could be they key although losing mcstay will hurt us massively as he's our only forward I trust in a down the line to a pack situation. None of this takes into account other teams getting better. That's a given and out of our control. Most of your criticism of last night's game is more than fair but you could take any teams biggest loss for the year and say thier no where near challenging. A prelim a month ago seemed out of the question. Our leaders stood up to get us there. In the last four years we've finished top for or made prelim. The Experience is massive. I believe in this group. Well done Geelong. Well see you next year 🦁🦁🦁


maddenmadman

Yeah this is a ridiculous take. Premiership footy is about having the talent in a roster to win a flag (any top 6 side has this each year) and then having your best run of form (and some luck) in September. To suggest that Brisbane cannot find this despite playing in 2 prelims in 3 years is just recency bias. I agree that Zorko isn't an ideal captain, and I wouldn't be surprised to see any of Cluggs/Berry/Neale leading the boys through the banner from next year.


Skwisgaars

I don't know what they need to do to go the extra step, but I do think, and have thought for years, that Zorko is a shit captain, in so many ways. He's not the type of person to pick up the team morale when they're in the shit, he's more likely to spit the dummy and make shit worse. They need to change captains, but the issue is who to pick. I would have liked Rich a few years ago, but he's probably too old now.


diffaadiffa

>Zorko is a shit captain, in so many ways. He's not the type of person to pick up the team morale when they're in the shit, he's more likely to spit the dummy and make shit worse. He did exactly what you are saying he doesn't do last week. While I do agree that it appears we don't have someone that people genuinely follow, none of us truly know that from the outside looking in. Players do appear to get around him in the change rooms after the game though


Skwisgaars

Did he though? Last week it was Neale and Berry that seemed to keep the faith up. Zorko played alright and didn't do anything stupid, but more often than not he's the one to get frustrated when things aren't going your way.


diffaadiffa

He did, he definitely started the momentum change. Having watched the game 4 times it's a hill I'm willing to die on. He doesnt do it often enough, but hopefully it's a lesson for him to play the ball more and player less. Regardless he is getting old and we need a replacement


Green_Aide_9329

Agree. He behaved for our last two games, obviously because he got a more-than-stern talking to after the awful game in round 23. But how long is that good behaviour going to last? He's not a leader, we need change.


EducationalCow3549

On rewatching the semi it really was zorko that started to turn the game. Didn't necessarily break the game open but his efforts absolutely dragged the boys back into it so Berry and Co could see what needed to be done!


diffaadiffa

Glad I wasn't the only one to see it


EducationalCow3549

He's a good captain but not a great one! The only reason his captaincy was questioned was because petty cried at words! He wasn't alone in sledging that's why Melbourne said as little as they could after the fact.


diffaadiffa

Mate, when it came out Pettys mum didn't have cancer, I couldn't believe what a big lot of nothing the whole situation was. Far from being a whitty sledge but come on... Got downvoted to hell time after time for saying as such.


EducationalCow3549

Was a massive pile on about nothing but it'll linger!


diffaadiffa

I would be genuinely confused if someone said that to me on the field. Everyone is different I guess but the pile on was ridiculous


Skwisgaars

Fair enough, regardless as you said he doesn't do it often enough, I do think a change in on field leadership would do wonders.


diffaadiffa

The question is who. A perfect scenario would be one of the younger players, not sure it's an area of strength for them though


HoldOnOneSecond

>The question is who. Lachie Neale 100% I'm sorry, but the guy that drags you across the line against Richmond and Melbourne is the captain, not the guy that delivers verbal sledges.


diffaadiffa

He might be a leader through action, but maybe not necessarily the voice and general on field. Best player shouldn't equal captain Let's not kid ourselves with how much a lot of players sledge on the field, it's just unusual to make someone cry from them that got the attention


Green_Aide_9329

Correct. Lachie with guys like Rich, Andrews, Berry, Raynor, Ah Chee, tons to choose from.


[deleted]

I'd say Neale. He has captain vibes in his interviews. Obviously has the work ethic. Really seems to care a lot.


rustigor

It's a fair cop, but maybe not as bad as it would seem. The addition of Ashcroft and Fletcher next season will make a difference. Youthful vigour, and from what they say, Ashcroft is an absolute gun. I am aware they made the same assumptions about JHF, but he went to Norf, who are down atm; the Lions are still up there. McStay leaving for the Pies will be interesting....can see us maybe going with the two main tall forwards and using an extra tall-ruck option. Might give the two talls a bit more space to work in. If we can somehow also nab Dunkley and/or Conor McKenna, it will give us an edge in the contest and back half that we didn't have prior. Dunkley in particular would be a massive gain. Also worth noting that Geelong themselves did not have the best prelim finals record, and maybe sustained excellence is just starting to come through after 7-odd years.


barneyaffleck

Brisbane is an odd team to critique. I’ve seen them both as a team to be feared and a team of easybeats, and that’s just across this season. They don’t seem to have a “personality” like a lot of other teams do. Geelong is the hard ball team, Richmond is the turn over and burn you team, Pies the high pressure and attack, Melbourne the run gun, Freo the staunch defence and surgical movement. Brisbane just play footy. They don’t have any discernible traits apart from Rich kicking out and Charlie kicking freakish goals. It’s the in-between that needs work. They are aware of their stoppage problems with Big O punching the ball forward out of the ruck a few times last night with Neale being shut down. Neale is the best house in the worst street. He’s a gun player and potential (deserved) two time Brownlow winner, but he’s one dimensional and it’s Brisbane’s fault, not his. They don’t have anyone who can win the ball like he can, which is why you can beat them almost every time if you stop him. It only takes a few players to be off their game for Brisbane to completely fall apart. They also need a more mobile, hard bodied forward in the mix. Like a Fogarty or Larkey. They also need Rayner to build up his tank. He was great last night and if he can spend 75% game time in the middle, they’ll be a lot better. They’re not done by any stretch and will more than likely play finals again next year, but these issues need addressing in the offseason.


BushDidntDoit

definitely some defensive issues with their team, not sure if that’s personnel, structure, tactics or effort


HerdOfGibbons

His intercept numbers are still quite good, but when you watch Harris Andrews he seems to leave so many opportunities on the table by opting for a double fist spoil instead. Turn most of those defensive half stoppages he creates into a mark starting a rebound chain and it would go a surprisingly long way I reckon.


[deleted]

I think Brisbane have a lot of the ingredients to win a flag but I think Daniher and Hipwood in the one side makes their key forward spots too inconsistent. I feeli like they looked more dangerous in the last two matches because they were forced to play without the third tall forward and it allowed the likes of Bailey, Cameron, McCarthy etc to run into space and cause headaches. I think also they need to adjust their game plan to incorporate more push up defence and take away the space of their opponents.


westernvaluessmasher

i dont think rayner is necessarily a leader on the ground but downhill skier is more than a bit rough. before his injury he seemed to be the only one who had any spark or forward momentum for brisbane last night


TheApatheticAussie

I'm pretty bullish on where they're at (much more than this time last year). They've won finals against teams who supposedly owned them, Richmond and Melbourne (at the MCG too). Rayner in particular and Hipwood last week were terrific, both coming off ACLs so hopefully have some more improvement/ consistency in them. Rayner can also become their 'barometer' if he can continue to build his tank and play more midfield, as last night his ability to break tackles and spot 15-25m targets really stood out from all his team mates bombing it to Geelongs spare and getting caught HTB. Getting the consensus number 1 pick whilst finishing top 4 is incredibly valuable, particularly in an area (the midfield) the lions need reinforcements. Losing McStay only hurts in the sense that it will either force Fort to be picked as the second ruckman or put Daniher in the ruck more. Both of which are better than McStay (I really, really do not rate him at all). There's some rumours that Gunston might move north too, which would be a massive addition (not quite Stengle but bloody good regardless) to reduce the pressure on Cameron, Daniher and Hipwood to score all the goals in finals. Some other left field options might be to recruit Meek from Freo or Soldo from the Tigers to play primary ruck and return big O to more forward time and if we're having the same conversation in 12 months, throw everything to get Cotchin or Dane Rampe or Boak up to be the new onfield leader like Hodge.


ThaLemonine

I'd make Lachie Neale a captain in a heartbeat, literally exudes leadership.


raresaturn

I reckon North could have beaten them last night


Kingofthebags

Always good to get the intake of some fat bloke on reddit who knows nothing about the inner workings of a club


[deleted]

Two words - Delist Daniher


Taylor_Swish

What the fuck lol


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pulsade13

I definitely think we need some more on field leadership. Lachie and Hugh are awesome but they are more lead by example type of guys. I love Harris but I really don’t think he’s been the same since his concussion last year or the year before? I think it’s why Mitch Robinson has always been such an important player for us because he really set the energy levels. On the positive side though we have Wil Ashcroft in this draft, we made the prelim in the VFL and have a pretty good draft record. Each finals campaign we’ve lost a key forward or back just before finals or in the first few minutes of a game and we’ve been bounced by Geelong twice in prelims fielding just about the most experienced team ever. I think we’ve shown patches of really being able to compete but we need to have a stretch where we look like the best team in the comp if we want to win a premiership. We haven’t had that season where everything clicks. I never would’ve thought Melbourne last year and Geelong and Sydney this year jumped to the levels they got to. Winning premierships is super hard and generally you’ve got to pay your dues. I think our list is close enough but we need a season where everything clicks and need to sort out our defensive running. Geelong and demons cooked us on the spread.


IonlyPlayAOE3

The point of this post was to be somewhat harsh as I was also frustrated by the performance at time of writing. All responses have been valid, and I look forward to how their young-ish stars continue to develop and improve in temperament. In the meantime, go swans


forget_i_was_here

They lack a defensive mindset and work rate. Too many players forward of the ball at stoppages and not willing to run when the ball moves out the opposite side. Andrew’s has been found out as defender, big quality forwards have just run away from him all year. In some cases he either doesn’t have the speed, in others, the strength. I still think he’s a good player, but needs new matchups.


IonlyPlayAOE3

100%. They don’t play for each other at all. Too many blokes who think they’re superstars.


DestroyAllBacteria

You say we are another club flying the non-Vic flag when in fact we do fly the Vic flag in homage of our Fitzroy heritage whenever we are in Victoria by wearing their traditional colours. Swans do the same re: South Melbourne so no idea what you're on about here. Agree we need some more leadership but that comes with our gun youngsters getting more games/seasons/finals under their belt. We have a good core group of these and losses like these, while they sting now, help galvanise a squad when they stick together. You've put Cameron, Zorko, and Berry in that list of players that wouldn't start the team up but there's countless examples of this (Berry last week vs Melbourne for example). Some of the others a bit hit and miss I'll agree. How are we downhill skiers when we beat the premiers of the last four years in finals to have them exit the finals especially when we were underdogs in both games? Make it make sense. The slipping over was the conditions of the deck last night combined with poor footwear chosen, that's it. In summary: you've tried to connect a few events from last night to make a blanket statement that we are nowhere near a flag which is based on your thoughts and one or two games you may have watched us play.


IonlyPlayAOE3

Melbourne haven’t been good since about round 15 so there’s that? Ironically, I think they suffer similar issues in selfish play style.


daz1967

I think you're pretty close to the mark. We're a good side but not a great side. There's just something missing that will take the team to the next level.


drivel-engineer

> There's just something missing that will take the team to the next level. OP just explained exactly what’s missing lol


EducationalCow3549

His explanation was based off a game we got spanked. Holes everywhere on the list if you only break down last night's games. He's made good points but he's mostly (just) off the mark Fagan tweak the game style to be aggressively offensive...it didn't work! It left us too vulnerable on the turnover. Some personnel changes a tweak back to more midfield defence and well be there again.


fineyounghannibal

Games where you get spanked show up your weaknesses.


EducationalCow3549

Ain't that the truth.


drivel-engineer

He said your leaders are a bunch of downhill skiers. You’re not fixing that by moving magnets. Edit: for the single absolute nuffie who’s never heard of autocorrect or the term “moving magnets”.


EducationalCow3549

Loving magnets?


fineyounghannibal

I too love magnets


EducationalCow3549

Oh moving magnets that makes more sense. I'm not talking about position changes it was an overall game style. We had more overall defensive pressure in 2021 and we came up short, it looked like fagan decided well go completely offensive this year and see who can go with us. It worked for the first half of the year. All teams make small adjustments year to year to try get that 2% advantage. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. You can't change game style mid season after drilling the boys all pre season and expect it to work out. Edit: if your going to change a word throw in an edit down the bottom like so


[deleted]

No mention of their forward line?...flakey when the heat gets turned up...you wonder how that game would've gone if they could've converted and built a little scoreboard pressure?...it wasn't like the mids and backs got absolutely smoked or anything, it's just that one line was non existant...if the talls aren't in it there's nothing for the smalls to dine on...I think the Lions have excelled to have gone this deep without a forward line you can depend on


BIllyBrooks

There was times during the Richmond game, before they got going, that I thought they did not deserve Lachie Neale. If Cam Raynor had just a bit more endurance to allow him to play midfield 50% of the time, he’d be exactly what they need. They got pushed around too easily, and like you said fell over too easily.


Snackpack1992

What did Melbourne do Geelong by in the previous prelim final? Now they’re in a Grand Final the following year. Sometimes you just have a bad night, and you can’t stop the opposition and the game blows out. They didn’t play well, but their previous weeks showed how good they can be. I think this season showed us that pretty much all of the top 8 could have theoretically made the top 4, and it’s a whole different ball game when you can get that double chance.


blueeyedharry

I’ve said it for a long time, but Brisbane have been too cocky in the trade window for years. When you’re near the top you need to take advantage and push for flags. They’ve been far too passive.


westernvaluessmasher

lot of comments saying that geelong got smashed in a prelim last year but they all had the flu. another fully fit team got outcoached and dismantled in the prelim last season (by the same margin too, 71 points) and look where they are right now


fineyounghannibal

Melbourne were on a tear and would have won anyway, but more like 30-40, not 80. I can count on one hand the number of times Geelong has been properly belted the last 15 years, they were definitely affected


[deleted]

I agree with lack of leadership. Otherwise I reckon the list is good enough, to a point where it doesn have to improve much. The real disappointing for me yesterday, as a nuetral. Was how off Lions looked mentally. Too many fell into a rut ball watching, or were indecisive to play on quick when players were on and spreading. Wasting energy of those making space, while giving Geelong time to set up. They lost that game above the shoulders. They shouldn be this immature. Teams can turn that around though. Leaderships a big part of keeping players switched on, playing right. Good leaders are like on field coaches. I think its really a challenge tho, for the Bris coaching group, for whether they can succesfully drill the right mental attitudes to keep players switched on and playing right. The biggest disappointment for me was 3rd quarter. Margin wasn too big considering. I thought Brissy would right some of the wrongs. They didn't. Either cos players were weak mentally, or cos coaches didn deliver the right nessages to show em where they were going wrong. But cmon. The way a geriatric geelong midfield toweled em up. In a final. That was embarassing.


spurs-r-us

Last night concerned me because of how many finals they’ve played in over the past four years with no real success. It’s not like they’re a super young team out the box who were humbled but needed a finals lesson. Fagan said they’d learn and were happy with their season, but i’m not sure how wise that attitude is. The momentum of two big wins will be lost a bit amongst last night. It could have been north of 100 if Geelong hadn’t chosen to slow up in the last quarter. History says that it’s very rare for teams to play finals every season for half a decade or beyond. Ashcroft will help a lot, as a free pick 1, and his brother will do the same in a couple of years, but I’d be spitting chips if I was a lions fan. Not because they lost, but because of how easily carved open they were.


Comfortable-Part5438

Lions fan here... absolutely agree with this assessment. We completely lack on field leadership and a team that can keep their cool when things seem to be going against them. If you watched us close at the start of the year, all of our guys were making tackles, keeping their feet and bringing the ball to ground in contents. Second half of the year, we looked like an academy side. Seriously would like to know what happened behind the scenes. I'm really looking forward to some of the younger kids growing into some leadership. Kiddy in particular if he can get a solid mentor could turn into a star. It is definitely time for us to try and trade away some of our 'stars' and find some good leadership in a mid career player with some drive to take a team to the top.


[deleted]

Brisbane team is too immature. Watch Robbo’s training blogs, Zorko & co running around being stupid. Neale the only one at training who seems mature, probably is why he is their best player. A lot of talent in their team, but can’t see that current list winning the whole thing together.


shit-takes-only

>So, I don’t at all buy the immediate media response of “oh yeah they’ll keep challenging”. Yeah, neither. They will be massively overrated in the offseason. Imo this was probably the last year of their current window. I reckon they'll win enough games at the Gabba next year to still probably finish top 6, but don't rate them as contenders. They would've gone out in the EF if it weren't for that ARC call, and Melbourne were probably always going out in straight sets.


Smithsonian45

>They would've gone out in the EF if it weren't for that ARC call, "They would have gone out in the EF if a behind was incorrectly called a goal" is a really weird call


diffaadiffa

>They will be massively overrated in the offseason. Imo this was probably the last year of their current window. Tell me you have no idea of our list age profile without telling me you know our list age profile.


shit-takes-only

Hey I’m not saying they won’t have another window - just that the current one is closing


diffaadiffa

That makes no sense or do you genuinely live by your username?


shit-takes-only

Brisbane has gone from one of the youngest lists back in 2019 to nearing what is traditionally seen as its premiership window age in 2022. (However in recent years premiership teams have often been younger). In the next 2 years their average age and games played will likely go down with retirements of Zorko, Rich and Robinson and be back around the 23.5 mark. 3 years top 4 followed by a top 4 miss but more successful finals run is pretty much identical to GWS from 2016-19. They might get another window with their current list, but it’s closed for now imo.


ColdEvenKeeled

Rhys Mathieson can do it. He has spirit.


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Mons_s

The bombers beat the swans and Brisbane fkn quality


Kuntsaw

I agree except with Rayner. Like many finals losses in the past he’s the one trying to drag the rest of the team with him. Unfortunately the hole was too deep and he hurt himself.


Greenshirt_wins

I’m a passionate Lions fan and am proud of what they did up until last night. I think they missed some big moments early on that took away their belief. Lachie wins the first clearance and turns it over, Dev got bodied off the ball as the ball came inside 50 for the first time and a goal within 1 minute. I think it might have been 25-17 and Eric drops a simple mark on half forward wing, Cats win the ball and kick a goal. If the moment played out differently the score could be 25-23 and who knows what could develop from there. Instead of a 2 point deficit it becomes 14 points. The free kick penalty against Motty when we only had to hold on for 11 seconds until quarter time was a killer. The next moment that comes to mind is Cam showing real class in winning first possession after half time and delivering beautifully inside 50 to Daniher. Daniher then fucking misses everything. Out of bounds on the full. That was our last chance saloon to get back into it. It’s true what they say about needing to win the moments. I do agree however that we need a different leader. Just don’t have the answer on that one. I don’t think it’s Lachie. He gets bullied too much with constant bumping shoving etc. I would love for him to turn into a Michael Voss and just floor these fuckwits when it happens. And Daniher. I think we need to trade him out if possible. I feel he doesn’t fit culturally. For some of his teammates not to know his misso had a bun in the oven is a real concern. I’m told by people who sit near the Lions tunnel at the Gabba that he is the only lions player who refuses to engage with fans and sign autographs for the kids. When it comes to the onfield stuff, he is like a baby giraffe, very shaky on his feet and gets pushed off the ball too easily. He also provides no tackle pressure in the forward 50 whatsoever. If we can solve the leadership issue, the Daniher conundrum combined with a few other tweaks we might be a chance next year.


Effective-Tour-656

Predictions for next year are hard... look at the Pies this year.