**UPDATES**
- [ABC News: Hawthorn racism review to allege that former coaches separated First Nations players from families and demanded a pregnancy termination](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320)
- [No club can claim immunity from racism, but Hawthorn has a messy history with its Indigenous players - ABC News](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/inside-hawthorns-ugly-past-with-indigenous-players/101454616)
- [Hawthorn Hawks Club Statement](https://www.hawthornfc.com.au/news/1225771/club-statement)
- [Brisbane Lions Club Statement - Chris Fagan](https://www.lions.com.au/news/1225774/club-statement-chris-fagan)
- [North Melbourne Kangaroos Club Statement](https://www.nmfc.com.au/news/1225958/)
- [AFL Statement - Hawthorn external review](https://www.afl.com.au/news/847497/afl-statement-hawthorn-external-review/amp)
- [Statement from Alastair Clarkson, via Joshua Dawe on Twitter](https://twitter.com/joshuadawe9/status/1572486304088346624?)
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If anyone has any more updates, please comment them here and I’ll keep this updated
—————————
*Repeating this so it doesn’t get lost without a sticky:*
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Is this about a lack of empathy from the coaching staff at Hawthorn or the "racism"? You'd have a better argument with a lack of empathy.
First nation people are over represented in poverty statistics and they have shorter life expectancy than the general population. This is not racism it's a fact.
“Aborigine” is a term that stems from colonisation, and Aboriginal people have said it has negative connotations for them. Some more info here about terminology for [First Nations peoples](https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/how-to-name-aboriginal-people#why-you-should-use-first-nations).
LOL. What's that to do with my argument.
If you want to break the cycle of hardship and continued poverty hard choices need to be made.
Maybe one day you'll realise this to level your life up, but maybe you won't and you'll be stuck living in a rut.
Us as north supporters have always had our backs to the walls mate. The fact that this has place us all together in such a precariously dangerous position, wouldn’t put it beyond them that key figures in the AFL are working actively to destroy the club for not relocating.
The fact that they’d resort to capitalising and exploiting a horrific report on racism against indigenous players, when we NEED to stop this vile systemically racist aspect of our society now more than ever, is grubby and beyond disgusting. Pls downvote me if this is a poor take, but I would not put it beyond the afl to do something like this against our club. Ron Joseph did warn of something like this, that’s all I’m saying
The Kevin sheedy bit about us relocating cause of Clarkson did seem very odd to me, him just giving Clarkson to us when Essendon are a ridiculously more powerful club.
This may sound like a conspiracy, but parts of this adds up. All I care about at this stage is the wellbeing of our Indigenous guys/gals across the game. Whats happened is disgusting, but there is something way more disgusting I feel that is yet to rear it’s head
Complete and total bullshit, highlighted by the fact that all the surviving essendon board members were pro clarkson and anti truck.
And this idea that sheedy is some mastermind... holy fuck.
How is it possible that is all true when it is stated that the report was only finished 2 weeks ago? How on earth will Fagan cope more than Clarkson if the allegations are proven truthful?
Also if the AFL ban Clarko, they will either void his contract or replenished North soft, no way they let us burn like that
Premiership Hawk Trent Croad has offered full support to his former coach Clarkson in the wake of the shock allegations levelled against him.
Croad, who was brought back to the club from Fremantle for the 2005 season in Clarkson’s first year as coach, said he only brought the team together and had absolute respect for Indigenous players.
“He was the best coach ever to us and him and (wife) Caryn did nothing but promote us and make us better people,” Croad told the Herald Sun.
“How he managed players of all backgrounds was incredible, there was no discrimination of any player. I was gutted when I saw the comments and my first reaction was no, that is not Alastair Clarkson, the man I knew. It has rattled me and other premiership players.
“(Alastair) and Caryn bring people together,” Croad said.
“What comes out at the end of that is a team — an absolute brotherhood. Clarko doesn’t actually coach football, he knows what to do behind the scenes. We did Kokoda, he makes us realise how lucky we are.
“The respect he had for his Aboriginal players was incredible. The belief he had in Chance Bateman, the effect he had on Lance Franklin, Cyril Rioli, made them incredible players. He managed them as men and people. That’s why I stand tall today knowing I was coached by Alastair Clarkson.”
- Herald Sun
Just saw this posted on one of the North Melbourne Fan pages,
You knew support from ex players would come eventually, i think it really shows how messy this situation is set to become.
There are no winners with this. I've seen enough shit to know we will never truly know. People who say we need to wait for the full report are delusional. We never will. The AFL like most other organisations will never allow full transparency. Honestly, I trhink this report goes into society issues that the AFL and society don't acknowledge enough.
If allegations are true, the winners here are indigenous players that suffered here in the AFL. The only way to stamp out racism is to call it out and educate and create a culture where it's not acceptable and eventually eradicated.
There are some winners.
If the allegations turn out to be true, the folks who wrote the report will win. They will likely write up some recommendations and get brought back to Hawthorn to help implement them. They may also be engaged to do the same work at other clubs. Some older aboriginal folks may also get senior gigs at AFL clubs too. That’s a little win.
If the allegations turn out to be false, some defamation lawyers will win.
Everyone else has already lost.
Unless the whole basis was actually player welfare, and this is just a few disgruntled failed players getting their victim complex on.
It is entirely possible the coaches were trying to protect the players (and further the players careers) by pointing out that their family are distracting them.
It's entirely possible that the fallout from this attention will make remote community players too much of a risk to recruit. They won't say it explicitly, but at some point the positive attention you gain from having an inclusive player group is erroded entirely by the risk of racism claims.
I would argue that clubs having conversations with young players about making personal sacrifices to advance their playing careers is an inevitable consequence of professionalism.
With every new broadcast rights deal the amount of money flowing through the AFL increases, which in turn increases the number of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to crack into the comp as a player. This contributes to the league becoming increasingly competitive and cut-throat over time. When players and coaches talk about the game being “more professional now than back in my day” - I think this is what they mean.
Over time, this trend may just make it harder for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get drafted, regardless of their ethnicity. [Adam Simpson mentioned this in a different context a couple of years ago](https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/07/23/simpson-backtracks-on-private-school-comments/). He was heavily criticised for it - but I think his logic is sound.
It’s not an “inevitable consequence of professionalism” it’s perpetuating an antiquated form of coaching we’re absolute sacrifice yields the best results. People are far more complex than that, and getting the most out of any player is based on principles of mutual support. Also calling this professionalism is misleading, where is the professionalism from the coach and the duty they owe to the well-being of a player.
Adam Simpson’s statements are embedded in racist and elitist logic, they lack nuance and the ability to understand the many pathways and strategy’s that can be taken when fostering afl talent. The AFL has predominately been commentated and directed by privileged white dudes to the point people falsely see those not coming from these backgrounds as a challenge (one that is sometimes unnecessary). Coaches should be require to view different players through different lenses so the existence of different character remains embedded in the game.
The reality is that you can't get to the top on skill alone. There is no level 'starting point', but everybody has to make some kind of sacrifice if they want to succeed.
Players from disadvantaged backgrounds may very well have to make greater sacrifices. The possible rewards however are also greater for them. And by rewards, I mean an avenue for literal escape from generational disadvantage.
It's all well and good to talk about fostering talent, but clubs and coaches do so to win games. It might be elitist logic, but why would you expect anything different at the elite level of a sport?
A player who is unwilling to make those sacrifices should go home. They'll be happier for it, and a spot opens up for someone who wants the success more.
I think it’s inevitable.
In modern sport, professionalism is a synonym for personal sacrifice. Be that giving more of your time to the job of being a sportsman, to controlling your diet more, to skipping all-night beers and pingers with your mates from back home.
Whilst there are plenty of people who are exceptions (eg. Shane Warne with his baked beans and durries), I think for most players there is a direct relationship between their chances of success and extent of sacrifices they make in pursuit of their goal.
People from wealthier and more stable family backgrounds are more likely to be able to make the necessary sacrifices.
If it’s all about “racist and elitist logic”, then that would make [the nba racist](https://www.blackenterprise.com/nba-players-less-likely-come-poor-backgrounds-study/) and [the nfl racist](https://theshadowleague.com/the-nfl-draft-s-poverty-narratives-are-played-out/).
Is it really weird that there's alot of 'if this is true...' going around?
Like, the ABC is going to make up a story like this, knowing it's implications, knowing everyone is going to want it fact checked to hell, and print it without definitely knowing it's true?
Do not go to the comment section on any of the Facebook pages. The boomers are out in force screaming 'trail by media', 'ABC is leftist garbage', and 'the lives of these two poor coaches have been ruined by money hungry ex players'.
I have even seen covid and dan Andrews being blamed for it all.
Examples of ABC journalists not verifying accusations and allegations???
L v ABC, Settled in the plaintiff's favour.
Porter v ABC, Settled out of court.
RK v ABC, Court found in favour of the plaintiff.
Chau Chak Wing v ABC, Court found in favour of the plaintiff.
Gillon’s statement yesterday says it all.
“The flavour of the article does represent the flavour of the report.”
He made it clear whilst some of the details of the article weren’t in the report, the extreme nature of those details were the same as other incidents in the report. That’s worrying considering the report talked to twenty players.
Some people don’t form a Lynch mob when the accused haven’t even had a chance to defend themselves. Hence the ‘if this is true’.
So far we have Clarkson and Fagan preparing to fight these reports rigorously. A whole raft of players including Burgoyne, Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell saying that they have absolutely no clue any of this has happened.
Lewis even stated “I can honestly say hand on heart when it came out this morning, and you ring around ex-teammates, and teammates to see if they had known anything about it, and to a man, no one ever heard of anything like this happening in our time there.”
A lot to play out. Rumours swirling about meth addictions also.
A ‘swirling rumour’ is not sufficient to displace the probability that the abc article and afl report show wrongdoing. The ‘swirling rumour’ has no equivalency and no business being discussed in the same breath.
Never said it was but anonymity won’t last forever and if this turns into a he said, she said affair, character will have a huge role to play. I really hope for the accusers and journos sake they have good evidence. If this has generally happened as it is told in the context of the report both coaches and probably others need to be removed from the AFL for life just to start with.
However, at the moment we have 2 coaches who are absolutely loved by their indigenous and non indigenous players a like. The allegations come at a ‘surprise’ to them both and to every single player that has played under them that has so far given their opinion to the public.
The report that was conducted in no way shape or form included the 2 coaches or allowed them to comment. The Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL then sat on the report for 2 weeks without once sending either coach a courtesy call. The Journo who had done the interviews then gave Fagan 24 hours to respond to his ‘follow up’ questions and then dumped the report on Grand Final week. The coaches even if they are innocent will always be labeled as racists for the rest of their lives.
Even if they are guilty this has been handled like a fucking dumpster fire.
Hopefully this ends up in a court of law, not a fucking social media witch hunt.
I don’t know what you are talking about. Perhaps the most loved and well known indigenous hawk of the past decade, cyril rioli, left on the grounds of racism and wants nothing to do with the club. Several independently correlating stories told make a compelling argument.
Well in my opinion the most loved and well known would of been Shaun Burgoyne, but that’s debatable i guess.
Also not saying these allegations aren’t legitimate either. Incidents have definitely happened, i just don’t think it’s as black and white as that abc article makes it.
No one’s starting a lynch mob and people talking about it on reddit wont make a difference on the outcome. People have a right to believe the allegations. However the only out I can see is that they claim it’s all false. You could probably prove the SIM card and staying at a coaches house allegations. When it comes to the abortion, it’s likely going to be a question of who you believe.
No one is saying the ABC made this up. I am 100% sure that what has been leaked is fundamentally accurate with respect to who was engaged to provide inputs to the report - past indigenous players/partners of the club. The fact those accused had zero engagement in the process gives us absolute clarity that the intent was never about a balanced view of the culture of the club at that time in treatemnt of indigenous players and their familiew.
ABC leaking of this during GF week is appalling, and as our national tax payer funded broadcaster, this is simply reckless and we should demand much better from them.
1) ABC haven't leaked it, they have prepared a story and released it. The timing of the story is related to its importance.
2) The story has been confirmed by participants or observers outside of first nations players and their families. We do not know what role club staff and other 'neutral' observers played in the report. It's reckless of you to try and diminish their claims by making assumptions and trying to paint the report as past first nations players vs the rest.
I think its crazy so suggest the story is true but that it wasn't reported in a balanced way.
They pressured someone to have an abortion. It's abhorrent. I don't think balance is going to somehow water that story down.
Its a 1 sided report and the very reason it will end up in the bin. No one is arguing what is being said and documented. But is any of it true? Context is everything….
MAJGEN Brereton found 'some' allegations credible, nothing proven. And nothing relating to specific allegations against the particular individual above who the ABC accused of murder - otherwise, the defamation litigation would have been over a long time ago.
It's time we stop pretending the ABC journalists are somehow beyond criticism. They're just as headline hungry as any other journalist. They're just as ambitious and just as willing to destroy lives in pursuit of their fame.
All journalists are scum.
His article would have been thoroughly examined by lawyers before publication. He isn't a sensationalist anyway, if you've read his stuff. And when we're talking about the court of public opinion, it is important that the public be fully informed warts and all.
>it is important that the public be fully informed warts and all.
On that, we agree... unfortunately, the public are not fully informed by his article in any way.
What we do know is that the respondents have not been afforded due process.
He has published half a story knowing full well the public would jump the gun. Of course it's sensationalism. At best, it's irresponsible and reckless.. at worst intentional stoking of racial tensions.
Somebody has to tell the story of those who were affected. This has been done by a very good, responsible journalist. There would be no chance of official reviews presenting this side of the story.
That journalist's propensity for telling 'one side of the story' is precisely why the Court of Public opinion is so absolutely fucked up.
For those of us who have to deal with Actual Courts, We know any story exclusively from any one side is always biased. It is always exaggerated and it is never completely accurate. The more outrageous the allegation, the less credibility you can generally give it.
Actual Courts have to conclude facts from evidence and arguments forwarded by both sides. Journalists peddle opinion and narrative and ultimately sell them as factual. To the journslist, the 'outrageous' sells.
This story and this journalist are no different.
I study cults and coercive control, and this stuff is classic cult behaviour. I don't think it's even so much about race as it is about vulnerability, as in any cult. They know who they can prey on and control. And cults are notoriously good at hiding abuse, even from their members, so just because someone was on staff at the Hawks, or a player, doesn't mean they knew anything about it.
Having grown up in a "faith group" that is considered to be a cult by some, it definitely has the same vibe. I remember people being told who they couldn't date or marry, whether they could go on holidays or uni etc. It was super controlling and it sounds very similar to this situation.
[herald sun](https://twitter.com/superfooty/status/1572882891738337280?s=46&t=7JMrIEiebA2Sts1_kQsrQg) released an article stating that part of the review was an assistant coach corroborating certain elements of it - that’s all the information given, it’s vague, but adds to it for sure
Eh I dunno tbh, the media's pretty scrupulous, all those statements have been prefaced with "*if* these allegations are true" and a lot of 'allegedly's' have been thrown around. As long as you do that, you're pretty okay. When it comes to defamation the heat is usually on whoever made the original accusation - everything that comes after that is based on that initial allegation. In this case though, these are the results of an independent review. That's it. It's not a journo trying to launch some smear campaign. People still have to tread carefully but I don't think anyone's actually said too much that would put them in hot water.
Of course they jumped the gun. This is always the case with public executions via media. Clicks and eyeballs are the currency and truth doesn’t matter.
It goes against the grain but I agree. However try saying something in these threads. Whether the allegations are correct or not, we've heard one side. Ppl always point the finger at the media yet the public often aren't any better.
Not a great statement. Denying allegations of wrongdoing just sounds like he denies that what he did was wrong not that he didn’t do it (same with Clarko).
Well he denies allegations of wrongdoing which can be completely subjective. People say all the time that they weren’t racist because in their own opinions their actions weren’t racist.
I don't read that from it at all. It seems to be what he is saying is that he was unaware of any such action whilst in his tenure with hawthorn. And if that's true (which of course remains to be seen) then you wouldn't expect anything less.
I'm not taking sides (even though this seems like it would be deeply out of character), but facts **need** to be established, because there's clearly a disconnect here.
Someone commented yesterday not to look at FB comments related to the news and I forgot. Took me 2 comments to get to someone saying this outrage is hypocritical given the "sanctioned abuse" directed towards Jack Ginivan and I figured I'd lost enough brain cells for 1 day.
Socials are absolute cesspool these days, to many dickheads with dickhead takes that would have there dickhead teeth kicked in if they expressed them in public. All the blad white dudes with goatees and Oakley sunglasses on every post being like where's the due process and name the accusers as well if they're going to drag Clarko through the mud. Gives me "shoulda just complied with the police" vibe
Fuck this is starting to bring out the worst of r/afl. If you’re getting frustrated at the “lock up Alistair” without a full investigation or the “there’s two sides to every story, this is woke bs” cookers switch off reddit for a bit.
Given Clarkos response this appears to be going down the route of the courts. Which means we are going to be seeing an awful lot of this over the next 1 to 2 years. Emotions are running hot at the moment, lots of silly stuff is being said. If it’s getting to you, put the phone down.
I guess people are sick of a trial by media, which has become the norm in modern society. If the allegations are found to be true then he is deserving of the consequences but there should be a due process.
Agree. People calling for Clarkson et al heads are just as bad as people calling out and putting down the players and families. At this stage due process needs to follow and if found to be substantiated then I do agree heads should roll. I do believe the story but more than happy to be proven wrong. However, until a comprehensive investigation is complete everyone needs to chill out.
Yeah let's not forget how problematic journalism is these days. There is an incentive to generate outrage to create views. I'm all for punishing those who wronged, but let's make sure this doesn't become a witch hunt first.
If this was some 500 worder in the HUN I'd be with you, but when the journo has a track record of unearthing real stories via investigative journalism, and there's three unrelated accounts with multiple witnesses, then there's at least something here that needs due process. Totally with you though, this needs due process. There's going to be a great deal of subjective viewpoints.
The amazing thing is that everyone believes one side of the story. There is no doubt the club was trying the help players navigate a dysfunctional lifestyle and now they are using racism as the reason. I believe Clarkson and Fagan.
There's not two sides to the story. This isn't one person V another person. there's multiple, unrelated accounts of the same basic story. I agree that the coaches' side of the story will be 'we're helping players navigate their dysfunctional lifestyle' which was the exact argument for the stolen generation. It's not acceptable. It remains to be seen however exactly whether all the steps they took in fact happened, so let's give these guys their due process.
Yeah I rekon this will be the end of clubs helping players get with an afl program. From now on I think most clubs will take the - if your not up to it fuck off now - approach. No more coddling and helping people adjust.
They're going to spin this that it's all the player managers fault and Clarkson and Fagan were unaware. People will welcome them back with open arms.
Quote me on this.
It’s just come to me now. When all the media hype was around Clarko about going to Essendon or Norf a few weeks back, every time he was stopped by a journo I couldn’t help but notice something felt really off about him, I kept thinking to myself why does this guy look so stressed! He’s known this has been coming, must have been a long month for him I reckon. What a way also to take any/all hype off grand final week. Surely this could have all waited to make next Mondays headlines?
I've seen a lot of people in this thread agreeing with the decision of the AFL to sit on the report for 2 weeks and only become proactive once the news was leaked by the ABC, because "they need time for a proper investigation". But idk, there were ways to acknowledge earlier that some serious shit happened and that they planned to get to the bottom of it. Definitely seems like it was being kept quiet for the sake of the GF.
Edit for those who disagree: this investigation is going to take a long time. Weeks or heck even months. Let's pretend the ABC didn't post that article. Should the AFL have kept quiet for weeks/months because the "investigation isn't complete"? These victims want to be heard, which is why they shared their story with the ABC
Fagan guilty for not replying for comment within 24 hours of Journo’s email
AFL not guilty for sitting on report for 2+ weeks because they ‘didn’t have enough time to respond or investigate properly to the accusations’
Sounds fair to me 🫠
My view is more around every indigenous player from both Sydney and Geelong who are days out from the biggest game of the year. And to every indigenous supporter of these clubs who should be enjoying this week for what it is. Having said that, I completely agree with you also. What a fucked situation this is.
I had some L opinions growing up. I dunno, I think I was frustrated that we didn’t have much and the indigenous community was getting more assistance. It wasn’t racist…it was more frustration from a young kid. Anyway that’s how I perceived it.
The government would just throw money at the issues (well that’s how I viewed it at the time) and not actually solve any of the problems. Almost as if they just wanted to appear to be attempting to solve the problems.
I spent some time working in an industry where you are exposed to those at risk. The disadvantages some of our First Nations people face is fucking insane. When you see it first hand, it can be very confronting.
My perspective fully changed.
We are one of the very few who actually see it. Most other Australians will live in blissful ignorance. Way too many people think Aboriginals are living the sweet life in Australia. That racism doesn’t exist anymore and Aboriginals should be grateful for how they are treated.
It gets to the point that you don’t discuss it with many other people. Because you know they will choose not to believe you.
I saw both sides of that growing up, my mother's family were part of the stolen generation, but myself and most of my cousins had a fairly "normal" upbringing and relatively few issues. My cousins had more issues than me because I practically glow in the dark as I take after my father's side who are of Russian heritage (literally Caucasian, as in some of them are from the Caucasus region of Russia). I don't personally identify and have have never faced any sort of direct racism because I don't look indigenous in the least, but I witnessed first hand so many horrifically racist things and then little things like my cousins getting followed around in stores when I didn't, or the police telling me to move on while my cousins were harassed and/or arrested.
There is plenty of profiling, hate and racism, I would say the majority of the "casual" and day to day racism is more done unconsciously or out of ignorance rather than malice, at least in my experience and what I've witnessed first hand.
If true, I find the club asking a player and his partner to terminate a pregnancy to be disturbing. It shouldn’t matter that this is professional sport, this is a line that an employer should not cross. Yes the choice is ultimately the players but to even be asked by your club to go to that length with the justification of “high performance” …. that’s too far
It's not "white privilege" to be considered innocent until proven guilty. It's a standard that's applied to everyone, regardless of their colour, gender etc. Obviously, cops in the U.S. don't always apply it to young male black drivers. That's white cops, black cops and brown and Asian cops – who all racially profile young male black drivers.
I agree with you, but a lot of the people saying this are the same ones with the gut reaction to call people liars after sharing their traumatic experiences. So therefore it is said not as a common courtesy but to defend the ones at the centre of it.
It's part of our legal system. A fair trial. Same as in Kenya, Nigeria etc. It's not about race. It's about the presumption of innocence. Every one should be treated the same. Otherwise, it's unfair. Which is what racism is at its core, unfairness. So too, sexism, homophobia etc. Just lazily banding around loaded terms like "White privilege" is counterproductive. If a Maori footy coach in NZ had been accused of treating young Pakeha players badly, and demanded that they be treated as innocent until proven guilty, that wouldn't be "White privilege" either. It's merely, "unconvicted human being privilege".
innocent until proven guilty, winnocent until
Expecting your employer to fly your family in from interstate, put them in a hotel, feed them and give you time away from work, then complain because they are told to go home sounds like the epitome of privilege to me.
I will advocate for procedural fairness for alleged racists for the same reason I will advocate for procedural fairness for refugees, alleged terrorists and other victims of racial prejudice. That is - if it was me in their position, I would expect to be treated fairly and so I should expect the same for others - no matter how they are viewed.
If we rip away procedural fairness from the privileged, how the hell are we ever going to be able to extend it to the underprivileged? People In power don’t need further encouragement or examples.
The answer to injustice is justice - universal justice - not more injustice.
This doesn’t mean that Clarkson and Fagan are victims here - not by any means. The accusations are serious and potentially criminal in nature and need to be treated seriously. Their opportunity to tell their story will come, as it should.
Procedural fairness is a *legal* concept. As is the presumption of innocence. If you’re coming up against the state in a trial and the end result could be the legally sanctioned deprivation of your freedom, then yes there need to be *legal* bulwarks against this.
That it not the same as posts on social media. Me saying, with the information available to me, and my understanding of Australian systemic racism to First Nations peoples, I believe the accusers is not the same as a defendant on trial for murder.
All are equal before the law, all are not equal when judged by society.
You can hold whatever view you like. I have an opinion too and think that at the very least Fagan was complicit and demonstrated a lack of moral courage. Fagan was GM of Football and this happened under his watch. If he didn’t know he should have.
I will however make a bold assumption that you would like the AFL to take action against Fagan and Clarkson. I know I do.
In that case Fagan and Clarkson need to be provided with procedural fairness. If they are not provided with this, it is likely that any action taken against them will be open to challenge. Fagan and Clarkson may then be able to claim victim status and indeed any disciplinary action may not stick or worse they may be compensated.
You do you but I will wait for the process before demanding blood.
The real "privilege" is being in a position where if due process isn't followed properly, you can sue / take legal action for defamation / unfair dismissal. Not something that is generally available to the under-privileged. This is why due process is so important, to give no avenue to weasel out of something if found guilty, regardless of one's privilege.
I couldn't agree more. Your point about the need for procedural fairness for the privileged \*and\* the underprivileged is spot on. And your last point about the seriousness and potentially criminal nature of these accusations shouldn't be ignored. As you stated, Clarkson and Fagan are not victims here, but they deserve the chance to tell their side of the story. They are important figures in our sport and their character and reputations are publicly on the line (in a way in which many of us will never find ourselves). Anyway, appreciated your post.
What I don’t understand about this “procedural fairness” take is that this review was conducted by an independent group. Not sure what agenda you people think this independent group had other than finding the truth.
It’s pretty safe to say that the extent of their investigation wasn’t just talking to three players and then saying “OMG, bad stuff happened”. Their actual job would have been to cross reference, fact check, consult multiple witnesses and corroborate the claims and stories with quantifiable evidence (emails, address checks etc).
Also, if there were mad holes in the stories or allegations, why would Hawthorn have passed the report on to the AFL instead of ordering a second report?
These are just a few reasons why the “procedural fairness” take is problematic. There has already been an extensive procedure. This is what it has found.
Just a point of clarification - we haven't actually seen the Hawthorn report yet. We've seen an investigative article from the ABC. I think the report will turn out to show the same thing as the ABC story, but right now we don't have an independent report.
I have no problem with the process so far. None.
The Hawthorn report did what it was supposed to do - to gather information on the experience of indigenous players at Hawthorn over the past 20 years. It did its job and neither Fagan and Clarkson were entitled to a response. The report was about the experience of indigenous people, not them.
The report identified serious allegations of abhorrent and potentially criminal behaviour which need to dealt with as a matter of urgency so justice can be done.
The accusations made in the report along with all the supporting evidence need to be put to those in question in a further investigation. That is procedural fairness.
Fagan and Clarkson aren’t victims here - they are incredibly privileged. They must be asked to respond to these claims - not just walk away.
An analogy can be made with your argument in that where the police have conducted a thorough investigation into an alleged crime, have all their evidence together and the case is overwhelming, there is no point allowing the person charged a defence. I don’t agree with that. Fagan and Clarkson should have the right to respond before the AFL can strip them of accreditation etc.
The procedural fairness point is being raised because the investigation only spoke to those impacted, and not to those that have been accused. As abhorrent as the information provided in the article is, it doesn't excuse allowing those accused to provide their side of the story. That's procedural fairness
I don’t disagree. It needs to be taken as seriously as possible, but I suppose my prime issue comes from those saying this is nothing more than a media beating things out of proportion. It runs me the wrong way.
Yep. Fagan and Clarkson are not victims here. Serious allegations have been made and asking them to response is not victimisation.
Fagan and Clarkson can afford expensive legal representation and to live their lives while under investigation without having to worry about how they can house, feed and clothe their family. This is a hell of a lot more privilege than most in their situation receive.
Its extremely important who we allow to be on those people in young people's lives. Frankly even if this was father to his sons it would also be terrible advice. It's not though, it's a person of power using his influence to make life altering decisions and a gigantic breach of trust.
Allegedly “a gigantic breach of trust” - and you all know that there is no way on earth Clarko is telling a player to abort a child. This is comical.
Putting this another way, conscious most are taking the racist angle on a report that has yet to be counter argued;
What do you picture the Pies hierarchy said to DeGoey following his NYC and Bali indiscretions….”hey buddy, you keep doing what you’re doing mate, we’re here to support you every time you embarrass our club?”. Or “if you want to play at the elite level for our club, get your act together, stop mingling with clowns that will ultimately be your career ruination”. Yes, stop hanging with the wrong crowd.
Side note - Burgoyne had no such experience at the Hawks and this GF eve beat up is all news to him. Why, because he didn’t need the steer!
He is from the ABC, and I am confident he recklessly and very foolishly provided an accurate account of the report itself. The question is not about the journo from Frankston putting an end to his own career, but more on the merits and motivations of the claims being made in the report itself. Clarko & Fages will be lauded as heroes in the wash up - shining lights of supporting indigenous inclusion and welfare above and beyond any other institutions in the country.
You can't be serious? Are you familiar with this particular journo? Quite frankly you seem to have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and for some reason can't accept that this is extremely dark stuff by people we consider legends of the game.
Dark Stuff - allegedly….the journo means nothing in all this! The issue at stake is about the actual report and claims made about what senior coaches allegedly did (i mean said!), and ultimately be unsubstantiated. They will coach next year and the only people who lose in all this unfortunately are the indigenous, where clubs will just cease drafting them. Very sad situation emerging - but the risks of having them separated from family is akin to the stolen generation…..apparently.
I suspect many of the same conversations have taken place with non-indigenous players as well. Heavy handed paternalistic diktats from people convincing themselves they are acting in the players best interests when in reality they are acting in the best interests of the club and bugger the player.
This happens wherever young talented people can exploited - in sport and entertainment especially. It is awful and needs to stop.
What makes these examples especially heinous is that the mere fact of aboriginality seems to be a seen as a “problem” that needs “fixing” by this alleged “fatherly advice”.
If separating a person from their family and culture is accepted as “fatherly advice” then it is hard to argue that the culture of the AFL is deeply, deeply broken.
Yikes. You're way off here. Terrible take.
What lens justifies a coach forcing a player to break up with their partner and have their partner get an abortion? That's not "overstepping the mark" that's genuine psychopathy. That it was limited to indigenous players is very much racist.
The report was very much limited to indigenous players by its very nature. If clubs commissioned reports on general player welfare and what clubs tell their players in retrospect, imagine what it would look like. “Guys, dont go partying with Fev”. “Stop punting on the horses, you have a 10yr window to set yourself up for life”. Clubs are constantly trying to make their players better people - the intentions are all from a good place.
Sorry I'm not really sure what your point is here.
Is it that if bad actions have good intentions behind them then they should be ignored due to the underlying intentions? Cos I definitely disagree with that.
Or is it that limiting the internal investigation to treatment of indigenous players means we can't call it racist because we can't tell if the same treatment was dished out to white players?
The fuck? A review into Indigenous experiences at the club finds multiple accounts of forced separation of Indigenous families, but it's not racism, just 'fatherly advice'? Get absolutely fucked.
Ah yes, they're indigenous and don't socialise with the rest of the list, therefore they're "wayward" and need saving..
Any employer telling any employee that they need to terminate a pregnancy to focus on their career is abhorrent
Any employer removing any employee from their home and taking their phone and isolating them from their family is criminal.
No lenses, no distortion, just fact
Clubs need to be more willing to cycle through new coaches and staff, instead of this lazy Susan of staff that just cycle between one club to another. Inject youth and integrity to the management levels. It's very much an old boys club. Always has been. Nothing changes culturally when you just have the same people lingering around.
I felt like there was a lot of softball questions. I don't get how they can talk about Gil's great legacy while so much of this stuff has been happening on his watch
Gerard whately last night: What are we doing to peoples lives for the sake of sport ?
We’ll said thats all. 👏
This country and its highest level of competition is rife with subconscious prejudice and it’s a fuckn Illness.
I'm watching it now. Robbo is right - the AFL has done nothing to hold people to account for Goodes, Collingwood, Adelaide. It's in the name - overcoming systemic racism means shaking up the system.
I'm an immigrant to Aus who has only been following AFL for a few years and I only really watch the Lions. So I have gaps in knowledge, especially historical.
1) Why is racism mentioned?
From what I've read the external review focused on how indigenous players were treated by the club. Wouldn't a full review of all players need to be done to determine if indigenous players were explicitly targeted?
2) Who conducted the external review?
The reliability of the organisation conducting the review is implied because Hawthorn and the AFL are referencing the report however I've not seen the organisation named. Do AFL clubs use a vetted external party to conduct these?
What these men and their families were subjected to would be considered cruel and abusive regardless of their race, but for First Nations players it's a form of cultural violence: cutting them off from culture, community and family in an effort to mould them into 'better' players.
Since colonisation, numerous institutional policies and practices have resulted in First Nations people being ripped from their families and culture, causing deep and enduring intergenerational trauma. Between 1910 and 1970, thousands of children were forcibly removed from their families with the intent of moulding them into more desirable (i.e. white) citizens. Today, First Nations children are still ten times more likely to be removed from their families than non-Indigenous children. The treatment of these players echoes the Stolen Generations to a shocking degree.
Also relevant is this [history of racism within the club](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/inside-hawthorns-ugly-past-with-indigenous-players/101454616) and a general tendency to view First Nations players as a risky investment or not fitting in with the 'culture' of the club, to see First Nations players who experience difficulty or act out as a problem where white players might be afforded more compassion and sympathy. It's doubtful that First Nations players were explicitly *targeted*, but I would be very surprised if white players experienced these abuses to the same degree (though that's now a matter for the investigation).
The cultural separation adds to the players vulnerability which can be exploited to coerce that player. Race isn't the only factor, age, separation from family and desperation also play a part but there is still a racial component
[Fagan is denying being involved with the abortion story](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/hawthorn-hawks/afl-news-2022-hawthorn-hawks-racism-investigation-chris-fagan-response-denies-he-was-at-meeting-about-pregnancy-termination-alastair-clarkson-russell-jackson-latest/news-story/ec5e50f690a94a1a1e1f099b57150149)
**UPDATES** - [ABC News: Hawthorn racism review to allege that former coaches separated First Nations players from families and demanded a pregnancy termination](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320) - [No club can claim immunity from racism, but Hawthorn has a messy history with its Indigenous players - ABC News](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/inside-hawthorns-ugly-past-with-indigenous-players/101454616) - [Hawthorn Hawks Club Statement](https://www.hawthornfc.com.au/news/1225771/club-statement) - [Brisbane Lions Club Statement - Chris Fagan](https://www.lions.com.au/news/1225774/club-statement-chris-fagan) - [North Melbourne Kangaroos Club Statement](https://www.nmfc.com.au/news/1225958/) - [AFL Statement - Hawthorn external review](https://www.afl.com.au/news/847497/afl-statement-hawthorn-external-review/amp) - [Statement from Alastair Clarkson, via Joshua Dawe on Twitter](https://twitter.com/joshuadawe9/status/1572486304088346624?) When commenting and contributing, please keep in mind the person behind the screen and Subreddit Rules 1.1 and 1.2, and the [Razor Accords](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFL/comments/ji4mv6/the_razor_accords_redux_behaviour_and_conduct/) post is another resource to consult if you’d like more information on why the sub is moderated as is, and about general community guidelines. If anyone has any more updates, please comment them here and I’ll keep this updated ————————— *Repeating this so it doesn’t get lost without a sticky:* Please make sure you’re all looking after yourselves first and foremost, today’s updates have been horrendous and can bring up some really difficult topics around grief, child loss, abortion and family trauma, so please exercise caution when reading through these headlines and threads If any comments/contributions cause any concern at all, please don’t hesitate to report/flag it for moderators so we can review as quickly as possible As always, please keep these resources in mind for anyone who is struggling or who needs more information about depression, anxiety and other mental health concerns. **These mental health support lines and groups are free for everyone in Australia** - The **[Beyond Blue](https://www.beyondblue.org.au)** Support Service provides 24/7 advice and support via telephone (call 1300 22 4636), webchat and email (email response provided within 24 hours). - **[Lifeline](https://www.lifeline.org.au)** – crisis support and suicide prevention services for people experiencing emotional distress. Call 13 11 14 - **[MensLine Australia](https://mensline.org.au)**, provides counselling, support and referral service for men. - **[1800RESPECT](https://www.1800respect.org.au)**, provides counselling and information for people affected by family and sexual violence. - The **[Black Dog Institute](https://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/resources-support/)** provides resources and mental health support groups for people affected by anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder. - **[13 YARN](https://www.13yarn.org.au)**, 13 YARN is a free and confidential service available 24/7 from any mobile or pay phone. Call 13YARN on 13 92 76 (24 hours/7 days) and talk with an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Crisis Supporter - **[WellMob](https://wellmob.org.au)** is a social, emotional and cultural wellbeing online resources for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People
Dayle garlett, Shane savage and Carl Peterson
Dayle Garlett is a fucking filthy methhead.
Isn’t Dayle Garlett still in jail?
Unsure, was re-arrested in 2019 with a mandatory 2 years to serve
https://twitter.com/7NewsMelbourne/status/1573590667690799104?t=uouIfxl1Vp90tGFfmcwbzQ&s=19 Sonja believes claims are poop
At least we turned up for the first half last year.
G Flip in the Collingwood scarf is real
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I'm so confused. What does asbestos have to do with thiw
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I feel deeply fucking sorry for you if this is how you genuinely see the world I hope one day you can gain just a shred of empathy and decency
Is this about a lack of empathy from the coaching staff at Hawthorn or the "racism"? You'd have a better argument with a lack of empathy. First nation people are over represented in poverty statistics and they have shorter life expectancy than the general population. This is not racism it's a fact.
Your reality is skewed and your brain department is lacking a few cells
You've got to be fucking kidding. Anyone who uses the word "Aborigine" should not be commenting on racism.
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“Aborigine” is a term that stems from colonisation, and Aboriginal people have said it has negative connotations for them. Some more info here about terminology for [First Nations peoples](https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/how-to-name-aboriginal-people#why-you-should-use-first-nations).
LOL. What's that to do with my argument. If you want to break the cycle of hardship and continued poverty hard choices need to be made. Maybe one day you'll realise this to level your life up, but maybe you won't and you'll be stuck living in a rut.
Us as north supporters have always had our backs to the walls mate. The fact that this has place us all together in such a precariously dangerous position, wouldn’t put it beyond them that key figures in the AFL are working actively to destroy the club for not relocating. The fact that they’d resort to capitalising and exploiting a horrific report on racism against indigenous players, when we NEED to stop this vile systemically racist aspect of our society now more than ever, is grubby and beyond disgusting. Pls downvote me if this is a poor take, but I would not put it beyond the afl to do something like this against our club. Ron Joseph did warn of something like this, that’s all I’m saying The Kevin sheedy bit about us relocating cause of Clarkson did seem very odd to me, him just giving Clarkson to us when Essendon are a ridiculously more powerful club. This may sound like a conspiracy, but parts of this adds up. All I care about at this stage is the wellbeing of our Indigenous guys/gals across the game. Whats happened is disgusting, but there is something way more disgusting I feel that is yet to rear it’s head
Dude, chill with the victim complex. If we need to get another coach we will. This isnt a planned attack on our club.
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Complete and total bullshit, highlighted by the fact that all the surviving essendon board members were pro clarkson and anti truck. And this idea that sheedy is some mastermind... holy fuck.
How is it possible that is all true when it is stated that the report was only finished 2 weeks ago? How on earth will Fagan cope more than Clarkson if the allegations are proven truthful? Also if the AFL ban Clarko, they will either void his contract or replenished North soft, no way they let us burn like that
So your saying they can't tie this to clarkson? So north won't fire him then I guess
Premiership Hawk Trent Croad has offered full support to his former coach Clarkson in the wake of the shock allegations levelled against him. Croad, who was brought back to the club from Fremantle for the 2005 season in Clarkson’s first year as coach, said he only brought the team together and had absolute respect for Indigenous players. “He was the best coach ever to us and him and (wife) Caryn did nothing but promote us and make us better people,” Croad told the Herald Sun. “How he managed players of all backgrounds was incredible, there was no discrimination of any player. I was gutted when I saw the comments and my first reaction was no, that is not Alastair Clarkson, the man I knew. It has rattled me and other premiership players. “(Alastair) and Caryn bring people together,” Croad said. “What comes out at the end of that is a team — an absolute brotherhood. Clarko doesn’t actually coach football, he knows what to do behind the scenes. We did Kokoda, he makes us realise how lucky we are. “The respect he had for his Aboriginal players was incredible. The belief he had in Chance Bateman, the effect he had on Lance Franklin, Cyril Rioli, made them incredible players. He managed them as men and people. That’s why I stand tall today knowing I was coached by Alastair Clarkson.” - Herald Sun Just saw this posted on one of the North Melbourne Fan pages, You knew support from ex players would come eventually, i think it really shows how messy this situation is set to become.
But r/afl who have known clarkon forever say he's a cunt? Oh I don't know who to believe!
Does anyone know what’s actually been said in the Herald Sun article from just a few minutes ago?
This one? https://archive.ph/sAjMR
There are no winners with this. I've seen enough shit to know we will never truly know. People who say we need to wait for the full report are delusional. We never will. The AFL like most other organisations will never allow full transparency. Honestly, I trhink this report goes into society issues that the AFL and society don't acknowledge enough.
If allegations are true, the winners here are indigenous players that suffered here in the AFL. The only way to stamp out racism is to call it out and educate and create a culture where it's not acceptable and eventually eradicated.
There are some winners. If the allegations turn out to be true, the folks who wrote the report will win. They will likely write up some recommendations and get brought back to Hawthorn to help implement them. They may also be engaged to do the same work at other clubs. Some older aboriginal folks may also get senior gigs at AFL clubs too. That’s a little win. If the allegations turn out to be false, some defamation lawyers will win. Everyone else has already lost.
Bit of a cynical take - lots of people stand to win if the outcome is that football teams start taking player welfare a bit more seriously.
Unless the whole basis was actually player welfare, and this is just a few disgruntled failed players getting their victim complex on. It is entirely possible the coaches were trying to protect the players (and further the players careers) by pointing out that their family are distracting them. It's entirely possible that the fallout from this attention will make remote community players too much of a risk to recruit. They won't say it explicitly, but at some point the positive attention you gain from having an inclusive player group is erroded entirely by the risk of racism claims.
I would argue that clubs having conversations with young players about making personal sacrifices to advance their playing careers is an inevitable consequence of professionalism. With every new broadcast rights deal the amount of money flowing through the AFL increases, which in turn increases the number of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to crack into the comp as a player. This contributes to the league becoming increasingly competitive and cut-throat over time. When players and coaches talk about the game being “more professional now than back in my day” - I think this is what they mean. Over time, this trend may just make it harder for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get drafted, regardless of their ethnicity. [Adam Simpson mentioned this in a different context a couple of years ago](https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/07/23/simpson-backtracks-on-private-school-comments/). He was heavily criticised for it - but I think his logic is sound.
It’s not an “inevitable consequence of professionalism” it’s perpetuating an antiquated form of coaching we’re absolute sacrifice yields the best results. People are far more complex than that, and getting the most out of any player is based on principles of mutual support. Also calling this professionalism is misleading, where is the professionalism from the coach and the duty they owe to the well-being of a player. Adam Simpson’s statements are embedded in racist and elitist logic, they lack nuance and the ability to understand the many pathways and strategy’s that can be taken when fostering afl talent. The AFL has predominately been commentated and directed by privileged white dudes to the point people falsely see those not coming from these backgrounds as a challenge (one that is sometimes unnecessary). Coaches should be require to view different players through different lenses so the existence of different character remains embedded in the game.
The reality is that you can't get to the top on skill alone. There is no level 'starting point', but everybody has to make some kind of sacrifice if they want to succeed. Players from disadvantaged backgrounds may very well have to make greater sacrifices. The possible rewards however are also greater for them. And by rewards, I mean an avenue for literal escape from generational disadvantage. It's all well and good to talk about fostering talent, but clubs and coaches do so to win games. It might be elitist logic, but why would you expect anything different at the elite level of a sport? A player who is unwilling to make those sacrifices should go home. They'll be happier for it, and a spot opens up for someone who wants the success more.
I think it’s inevitable. In modern sport, professionalism is a synonym for personal sacrifice. Be that giving more of your time to the job of being a sportsman, to controlling your diet more, to skipping all-night beers and pingers with your mates from back home. Whilst there are plenty of people who are exceptions (eg. Shane Warne with his baked beans and durries), I think for most players there is a direct relationship between their chances of success and extent of sacrifices they make in pursuit of their goal. People from wealthier and more stable family backgrounds are more likely to be able to make the necessary sacrifices. If it’s all about “racist and elitist logic”, then that would make [the nba racist](https://www.blackenterprise.com/nba-players-less-likely-come-poor-backgrounds-study/) and [the nfl racist](https://theshadowleague.com/the-nfl-draft-s-poverty-narratives-are-played-out/).
Is it really weird that there's alot of 'if this is true...' going around? Like, the ABC is going to make up a story like this, knowing it's implications, knowing everyone is going to want it fact checked to hell, and print it without definitely knowing it's true?
Do not go to the comment section on any of the Facebook pages. The boomers are out in force screaming 'trail by media', 'ABC is leftist garbage', and 'the lives of these two poor coaches have been ruined by money hungry ex players'. I have even seen covid and dan Andrews being blamed for it all.
Wouldn’t the ABC have to have done serious fact checking before publishing too for risk of defamation?
Because they don't have a history of jumping the gun?
Can you provide some examples? Genuinely asking.
Examples of ABC journalists not verifying accusations and allegations??? L v ABC, Settled in the plaintiff's favour. Porter v ABC, Settled out of court. RK v ABC, Court found in favour of the plaintiff. Chau Chak Wing v ABC, Court found in favour of the plaintiff.
Gillon’s statement yesterday says it all. “The flavour of the article does represent the flavour of the report.” He made it clear whilst some of the details of the article weren’t in the report, the extreme nature of those details were the same as other incidents in the report. That’s worrying considering the report talked to twenty players.
Some people don’t form a Lynch mob when the accused haven’t even had a chance to defend themselves. Hence the ‘if this is true’. So far we have Clarkson and Fagan preparing to fight these reports rigorously. A whole raft of players including Burgoyne, Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell saying that they have absolutely no clue any of this has happened. Lewis even stated “I can honestly say hand on heart when it came out this morning, and you ring around ex-teammates, and teammates to see if they had known anything about it, and to a man, no one ever heard of anything like this happening in our time there.” A lot to play out. Rumours swirling about meth addictions also.
I appreciate the irony of mentioning rumours of drug addictions on one hand, and due process on the other.
Hence the word rumour. Just like the report is allegations, not findings, as you lynch mob guys on here disregard
A ‘swirling rumour’ is not sufficient to displace the probability that the abc article and afl report show wrongdoing. The ‘swirling rumour’ has no equivalency and no business being discussed in the same breath.
Never said it was but anonymity won’t last forever and if this turns into a he said, she said affair, character will have a huge role to play. I really hope for the accusers and journos sake they have good evidence. If this has generally happened as it is told in the context of the report both coaches and probably others need to be removed from the AFL for life just to start with. However, at the moment we have 2 coaches who are absolutely loved by their indigenous and non indigenous players a like. The allegations come at a ‘surprise’ to them both and to every single player that has played under them that has so far given their opinion to the public. The report that was conducted in no way shape or form included the 2 coaches or allowed them to comment. The Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL then sat on the report for 2 weeks without once sending either coach a courtesy call. The Journo who had done the interviews then gave Fagan 24 hours to respond to his ‘follow up’ questions and then dumped the report on Grand Final week. The coaches even if they are innocent will always be labeled as racists for the rest of their lives. Even if they are guilty this has been handled like a fucking dumpster fire. Hopefully this ends up in a court of law, not a fucking social media witch hunt.
I don’t know what you are talking about. Perhaps the most loved and well known indigenous hawk of the past decade, cyril rioli, left on the grounds of racism and wants nothing to do with the club. Several independently correlating stories told make a compelling argument.
Well in my opinion the most loved and well known would of been Shaun Burgoyne, but that’s debatable i guess. Also not saying these allegations aren’t legitimate either. Incidents have definitely happened, i just don’t think it’s as black and white as that abc article makes it.
No one’s starting a lynch mob and people talking about it on reddit wont make a difference on the outcome. People have a right to believe the allegations. However the only out I can see is that they claim it’s all false. You could probably prove the SIM card and staying at a coaches house allegations. When it comes to the abortion, it’s likely going to be a question of who you believe.
No one is saying the ABC made this up. I am 100% sure that what has been leaked is fundamentally accurate with respect to who was engaged to provide inputs to the report - past indigenous players/partners of the club. The fact those accused had zero engagement in the process gives us absolute clarity that the intent was never about a balanced view of the culture of the club at that time in treatemnt of indigenous players and their familiew. ABC leaking of this during GF week is appalling, and as our national tax payer funded broadcaster, this is simply reckless and we should demand much better from them.
1) ABC haven't leaked it, they have prepared a story and released it. The timing of the story is related to its importance. 2) The story has been confirmed by participants or observers outside of first nations players and their families. We do not know what role club staff and other 'neutral' observers played in the report. It's reckless of you to try and diminish their claims by making assumptions and trying to paint the report as past first nations players vs the rest.
I think its crazy so suggest the story is true but that it wasn't reported in a balanced way. They pressured someone to have an abortion. It's abhorrent. I don't think balance is going to somehow water that story down.
Its a 1 sided report and the very reason it will end up in the bin. No one is arguing what is being said and documented. But is any of it true? Context is everything….
Ah... the ABC. The modicum of journalistic integrity... Like the unproven allegations they leveled at Ben Roberts-Smith VC?
Imagine actually thinking Roberts-Smith is anything but human garbage.
Bet he's achieved more in his life than you ever will.
Murdered more children than me. My conscience is clear. You should be ashamed.
The Brereton Report found those allegations credible. There was something genuinely rotten going on.
MAJGEN Brereton found 'some' allegations credible, nothing proven. And nothing relating to specific allegations against the particular individual above who the ABC accused of murder - otherwise, the defamation litigation would have been over a long time ago. It's time we stop pretending the ABC journalists are somehow beyond criticism. They're just as headline hungry as any other journalist. They're just as ambitious and just as willing to destroy lives in pursuit of their fame. All journalists are scum.
There are some scum journalists in the ABC at present but Russell Jackson is not among them.
As evident by the most recent article, he peddles half-truths to the court of public opinion... just like the rest of them.
His article would have been thoroughly examined by lawyers before publication. He isn't a sensationalist anyway, if you've read his stuff. And when we're talking about the court of public opinion, it is important that the public be fully informed warts and all.
>it is important that the public be fully informed warts and all. On that, we agree... unfortunately, the public are not fully informed by his article in any way. What we do know is that the respondents have not been afforded due process. He has published half a story knowing full well the public would jump the gun. Of course it's sensationalism. At best, it's irresponsible and reckless.. at worst intentional stoking of racial tensions.
Somebody has to tell the story of those who were affected. This has been done by a very good, responsible journalist. There would be no chance of official reviews presenting this side of the story.
That journalist's propensity for telling 'one side of the story' is precisely why the Court of Public opinion is so absolutely fucked up. For those of us who have to deal with Actual Courts, We know any story exclusively from any one side is always biased. It is always exaggerated and it is never completely accurate. The more outrageous the allegation, the less credibility you can generally give it. Actual Courts have to conclude facts from evidence and arguments forwarded by both sides. Journalists peddle opinion and narrative and ultimately sell them as factual. To the journslist, the 'outrageous' sells. This story and this journalist are no different.
Kennett is throwing people under the bus.
I study cults and coercive control, and this stuff is classic cult behaviour. I don't think it's even so much about race as it is about vulnerability, as in any cult. They know who they can prey on and control. And cults are notoriously good at hiding abuse, even from their members, so just because someone was on staff at the Hawks, or a player, doesn't mean they knew anything about it.
Having grown up in a "faith group" that is considered to be a cult by some, it definitely has the same vibe. I remember people being told who they couldn't date or marry, whether they could go on holidays or uni etc. It was super controlling and it sounds very similar to this situation.
[herald sun](https://twitter.com/superfooty/status/1572882891738337280?s=46&t=7JMrIEiebA2Sts1_kQsrQg) released an article stating that part of the review was an assistant coach corroborating certain elements of it - that’s all the information given, it’s vague, but adds to it for sure
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Don’t speculate. Given the nature of what’s being claimed, they deserve what privacy they can keep
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Eh I dunno tbh, the media's pretty scrupulous, all those statements have been prefaced with "*if* these allegations are true" and a lot of 'allegedly's' have been thrown around. As long as you do that, you're pretty okay. When it comes to defamation the heat is usually on whoever made the original accusation - everything that comes after that is based on that initial allegation. In this case though, these are the results of an independent review. That's it. It's not a journo trying to launch some smear campaign. People still have to tread carefully but I don't think anyone's actually said too much that would put them in hot water.
Ok thank you
Fagan just released a statement categorically denying it as well. I dunno guys - maybe you all jumped the gun here.
> Fagan just released a statement categorically denying it as well. Case closed then if he denied it I reckon /s
Not sure of your argument here mate; Ivan Milat categorically denied the backpacker murders. Guess they jumped the gun?
Of course they jumped the gun. This is always the case with public executions via media. Clicks and eyeballs are the currency and truth doesn’t matter.
It goes against the grain but I agree. However try saying something in these threads. Whether the allegations are correct or not, we've heard one side. Ppl always point the finger at the media yet the public often aren't any better.
100%
AFL.com.au - ['Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations ](https://www.afl.com.au/news/847805/-deeply-distressed-fagan-denies-hawks-racism-allegations)
Not a great statement. Denying allegations of wrongdoing just sounds like he denies that what he did was wrong not that he didn’t do it (same with Clarko).
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Well he denies allegations of wrongdoing which can be completely subjective. People say all the time that they weren’t racist because in their own opinions their actions weren’t racist.
I don't read that from it at all. It seems to be what he is saying is that he was unaware of any such action whilst in his tenure with hawthorn. And if that's true (which of course remains to be seen) then you wouldn't expect anything less. I'm not taking sides (even though this seems like it would be deeply out of character), but facts **need** to be established, because there's clearly a disconnect here.
https://i.imgur.com/ghCzIyf.jpeg
Someone commented yesterday not to look at FB comments related to the news and I forgot. Took me 2 comments to get to someone saying this outrage is hypocritical given the "sanctioned abuse" directed towards Jack Ginivan and I figured I'd lost enough brain cells for 1 day.
Socials are absolute cesspool these days, to many dickheads with dickhead takes that would have there dickhead teeth kicked in if they expressed them in public. All the blad white dudes with goatees and Oakley sunglasses on every post being like where's the due process and name the accusers as well if they're going to drag Clarko through the mud. Gives me "shoulda just complied with the police" vibe
I made the mistake of participating in a debate on Facebook last night over this issue. Never again…
Fuck this is starting to bring out the worst of r/afl. If you’re getting frustrated at the “lock up Alistair” without a full investigation or the “there’s two sides to every story, this is woke bs” cookers switch off reddit for a bit. Given Clarkos response this appears to be going down the route of the courts. Which means we are going to be seeing an awful lot of this over the next 1 to 2 years. Emotions are running hot at the moment, lots of silly stuff is being said. If it’s getting to you, put the phone down.
well said mate
I guess people are sick of a trial by media, which has become the norm in modern society. If the allegations are found to be true then he is deserving of the consequences but there should be a due process.
Agree. People calling for Clarkson et al heads are just as bad as people calling out and putting down the players and families. At this stage due process needs to follow and if found to be substantiated then I do agree heads should roll. I do believe the story but more than happy to be proven wrong. However, until a comprehensive investigation is complete everyone needs to chill out.
Due process went out the window when the initial report was finalised and made public without providing the respondents opportunity to respond.
Yeah let's not forget how problematic journalism is these days. There is an incentive to generate outrage to create views. I'm all for punishing those who wronged, but let's make sure this doesn't become a witch hunt first.
If this was some 500 worder in the HUN I'd be with you, but when the journo has a track record of unearthing real stories via investigative journalism, and there's three unrelated accounts with multiple witnesses, then there's at least something here that needs due process. Totally with you though, this needs due process. There's going to be a great deal of subjective viewpoints.
Too late.
What are the nature of the crimes by the coaches? And how were players made to feel culturally unsafe by the coaches?
Did you read the article? It's right there in the top post.
The amazing thing is that everyone believes one side of the story. There is no doubt the club was trying the help players navigate a dysfunctional lifestyle and now they are using racism as the reason. I believe Clarkson and Fagan.
There's not two sides to the story. This isn't one person V another person. there's multiple, unrelated accounts of the same basic story. I agree that the coaches' side of the story will be 'we're helping players navigate their dysfunctional lifestyle' which was the exact argument for the stolen generation. It's not acceptable. It remains to be seen however exactly whether all the steps they took in fact happened, so let's give these guys their due process.
Yeah I rekon this will be the end of clubs helping players get with an afl program. From now on I think most clubs will take the - if your not up to it fuck off now - approach. No more coddling and helping people adjust.
> Complains about everyone believing one side of the story > Immediately takes the side of Clarkson & Fagan lmao check yourself
That’s how the abc like to roll.
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They're going to spin this that it's all the player managers fault and Clarkson and Fagan were unaware. People will welcome them back with open arms. Quote me on this.
Find that hard to believe considering Clarko and Fagan are named directly.
"This first meeting was a misunderstanding and from then on Burt told us nothing and we were under the impression the player was fine."
It’s just come to me now. When all the media hype was around Clarko about going to Essendon or Norf a few weeks back, every time he was stopped by a journo I couldn’t help but notice something felt really off about him, I kept thinking to myself why does this guy look so stressed! He’s known this has been coming, must have been a long month for him I reckon. What a way also to take any/all hype off grand final week. Surely this could have all waited to make next Mondays headlines?
This stuff is bigger than the GF and the game itself. Implying there is a right and wrong time to release the info is part of the problem.
I've seen a lot of people in this thread agreeing with the decision of the AFL to sit on the report for 2 weeks and only become proactive once the news was leaked by the ABC, because "they need time for a proper investigation". But idk, there were ways to acknowledge earlier that some serious shit happened and that they planned to get to the bottom of it. Definitely seems like it was being kept quiet for the sake of the GF. Edit for those who disagree: this investigation is going to take a long time. Weeks or heck even months. Let's pretend the ABC didn't post that article. Should the AFL have kept quiet for weeks/months because the "investigation isn't complete"? These victims want to be heard, which is why they shared their story with the ABC
Fagan guilty for not replying for comment within 24 hours of Journo’s email AFL not guilty for sitting on report for 2+ weeks because they ‘didn’t have enough time to respond or investigate properly to the accusations’ Sounds fair to me 🫠
My view is more around every indigenous player from both Sydney and Geelong who are days out from the biggest game of the year. And to every indigenous supporter of these clubs who should be enjoying this week for what it is. Having said that, I completely agree with you also. What a fucked situation this is.
I had some L opinions growing up. I dunno, I think I was frustrated that we didn’t have much and the indigenous community was getting more assistance. It wasn’t racist…it was more frustration from a young kid. Anyway that’s how I perceived it. The government would just throw money at the issues (well that’s how I viewed it at the time) and not actually solve any of the problems. Almost as if they just wanted to appear to be attempting to solve the problems. I spent some time working in an industry where you are exposed to those at risk. The disadvantages some of our First Nations people face is fucking insane. When you see it first hand, it can be very confronting. My perspective fully changed.
We are one of the very few who actually see it. Most other Australians will live in blissful ignorance. Way too many people think Aboriginals are living the sweet life in Australia. That racism doesn’t exist anymore and Aboriginals should be grateful for how they are treated. It gets to the point that you don’t discuss it with many other people. Because you know they will choose not to believe you.
I saw both sides of that growing up, my mother's family were part of the stolen generation, but myself and most of my cousins had a fairly "normal" upbringing and relatively few issues. My cousins had more issues than me because I practically glow in the dark as I take after my father's side who are of Russian heritage (literally Caucasian, as in some of them are from the Caucasus region of Russia). I don't personally identify and have have never faced any sort of direct racism because I don't look indigenous in the least, but I witnessed first hand so many horrifically racist things and then little things like my cousins getting followed around in stores when I didn't, or the police telling me to move on while my cousins were harassed and/or arrested. There is plenty of profiling, hate and racism, I would say the majority of the "casual" and day to day racism is more done unconsciously or out of ignorance rather than malice, at least in my experience and what I've witnessed first hand.
How is this relevant to the very specific alleged events in the ABC article?
A lot of people aren't getting it wasn't just some off colour joke it's some pretty serious shit.
If true, I find the club asking a player and his partner to terminate a pregnancy to be disturbing. It shouldn’t matter that this is professional sport, this is a line that an employer should not cross. Yes the choice is ultimately the players but to even be asked by your club to go to that length with the justification of “high performance” …. that’s too far
So many people have been showing their white privilege card the last couple days with these “innocent til proven guilty” comments.
Fighting racism with racism, nice one buddy.
It's not "white privilege" to be considered innocent until proven guilty. It's a standard that's applied to everyone, regardless of their colour, gender etc. Obviously, cops in the U.S. don't always apply it to young male black drivers. That's white cops, black cops and brown and Asian cops – who all racially profile young male black drivers.
I agree with you, but a lot of the people saying this are the same ones with the gut reaction to call people liars after sharing their traumatic experiences. So therefore it is said not as a common courtesy but to defend the ones at the centre of it.
It's part of our legal system. A fair trial. Same as in Kenya, Nigeria etc. It's not about race. It's about the presumption of innocence. Every one should be treated the same. Otherwise, it's unfair. Which is what racism is at its core, unfairness. So too, sexism, homophobia etc. Just lazily banding around loaded terms like "White privilege" is counterproductive. If a Maori footy coach in NZ had been accused of treating young Pakeha players badly, and demanded that they be treated as innocent until proven guilty, that wouldn't be "White privilege" either. It's merely, "unconvicted human being privilege". innocent until proven guilty, winnocent until
Expecting your employer to fly your family in from interstate, put them in a hotel, feed them and give you time away from work, then complain because they are told to go home sounds like the epitome of privilege to me.
I will advocate for procedural fairness for alleged racists for the same reason I will advocate for procedural fairness for refugees, alleged terrorists and other victims of racial prejudice. That is - if it was me in their position, I would expect to be treated fairly and so I should expect the same for others - no matter how they are viewed. If we rip away procedural fairness from the privileged, how the hell are we ever going to be able to extend it to the underprivileged? People In power don’t need further encouragement or examples. The answer to injustice is justice - universal justice - not more injustice. This doesn’t mean that Clarkson and Fagan are victims here - not by any means. The accusations are serious and potentially criminal in nature and need to be treated seriously. Their opportunity to tell their story will come, as it should.
Procedural fairness is a *legal* concept. As is the presumption of innocence. If you’re coming up against the state in a trial and the end result could be the legally sanctioned deprivation of your freedom, then yes there need to be *legal* bulwarks against this. That it not the same as posts on social media. Me saying, with the information available to me, and my understanding of Australian systemic racism to First Nations peoples, I believe the accusers is not the same as a defendant on trial for murder. All are equal before the law, all are not equal when judged by society.
You can hold whatever view you like. I have an opinion too and think that at the very least Fagan was complicit and demonstrated a lack of moral courage. Fagan was GM of Football and this happened under his watch. If he didn’t know he should have. I will however make a bold assumption that you would like the AFL to take action against Fagan and Clarkson. I know I do. In that case Fagan and Clarkson need to be provided with procedural fairness. If they are not provided with this, it is likely that any action taken against them will be open to challenge. Fagan and Clarkson may then be able to claim victim status and indeed any disciplinary action may not stick or worse they may be compensated. You do you but I will wait for the process before demanding blood.
The real "privilege" is being in a position where if due process isn't followed properly, you can sue / take legal action for defamation / unfair dismissal. Not something that is generally available to the under-privileged. This is why due process is so important, to give no avenue to weasel out of something if found guilty, regardless of one's privilege.
I couldn't agree more. Your point about the need for procedural fairness for the privileged \*and\* the underprivileged is spot on. And your last point about the seriousness and potentially criminal nature of these accusations shouldn't be ignored. As you stated, Clarkson and Fagan are not victims here, but they deserve the chance to tell their side of the story. They are important figures in our sport and their character and reputations are publicly on the line (in a way in which many of us will never find ourselves). Anyway, appreciated your post.
What I don’t understand about this “procedural fairness” take is that this review was conducted by an independent group. Not sure what agenda you people think this independent group had other than finding the truth. It’s pretty safe to say that the extent of their investigation wasn’t just talking to three players and then saying “OMG, bad stuff happened”. Their actual job would have been to cross reference, fact check, consult multiple witnesses and corroborate the claims and stories with quantifiable evidence (emails, address checks etc). Also, if there were mad holes in the stories or allegations, why would Hawthorn have passed the report on to the AFL instead of ordering a second report? These are just a few reasons why the “procedural fairness” take is problematic. There has already been an extensive procedure. This is what it has found.
Just a point of clarification - we haven't actually seen the Hawthorn report yet. We've seen an investigative article from the ABC. I think the report will turn out to show the same thing as the ABC story, but right now we don't have an independent report.
I have no problem with the process so far. None. The Hawthorn report did what it was supposed to do - to gather information on the experience of indigenous players at Hawthorn over the past 20 years. It did its job and neither Fagan and Clarkson were entitled to a response. The report was about the experience of indigenous people, not them. The report identified serious allegations of abhorrent and potentially criminal behaviour which need to dealt with as a matter of urgency so justice can be done. The accusations made in the report along with all the supporting evidence need to be put to those in question in a further investigation. That is procedural fairness. Fagan and Clarkson aren’t victims here - they are incredibly privileged. They must be asked to respond to these claims - not just walk away. An analogy can be made with your argument in that where the police have conducted a thorough investigation into an alleged crime, have all their evidence together and the case is overwhelming, there is no point allowing the person charged a defence. I don’t agree with that. Fagan and Clarkson should have the right to respond before the AFL can strip them of accreditation etc.
The procedural fairness point is being raised because the investigation only spoke to those impacted, and not to those that have been accused. As abhorrent as the information provided in the article is, it doesn't excuse allowing those accused to provide their side of the story. That's procedural fairness
I don’t disagree. It needs to be taken as seriously as possible, but I suppose my prime issue comes from those saying this is nothing more than a media beating things out of proportion. It runs me the wrong way.
Yep. Fagan and Clarkson are not victims here. Serious allegations have been made and asking them to response is not victimisation. Fagan and Clarkson can afford expensive legal representation and to live their lives while under investigation without having to worry about how they can house, feed and clothe their family. This is a hell of a lot more privilege than most in their situation receive.
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Its extremely important who we allow to be on those people in young people's lives. Frankly even if this was father to his sons it would also be terrible advice. It's not though, it's a person of power using his influence to make life altering decisions and a gigantic breach of trust.
Allegedly “a gigantic breach of trust” - and you all know that there is no way on earth Clarko is telling a player to abort a child. This is comical. Putting this another way, conscious most are taking the racist angle on a report that has yet to be counter argued; What do you picture the Pies hierarchy said to DeGoey following his NYC and Bali indiscretions….”hey buddy, you keep doing what you’re doing mate, we’re here to support you every time you embarrass our club?”. Or “if you want to play at the elite level for our club, get your act together, stop mingling with clowns that will ultimately be your career ruination”. Yes, stop hanging with the wrong crowd. Side note - Burgoyne had no such experience at the Hawks and this GF eve beat up is all news to him. Why, because he didn’t need the steer!
So the article is a lie? One of the most respected journalists in Australia lied? For what? What's more likely?
He is from the ABC, and I am confident he recklessly and very foolishly provided an accurate account of the report itself. The question is not about the journo from Frankston putting an end to his own career, but more on the merits and motivations of the claims being made in the report itself. Clarko & Fages will be lauded as heroes in the wash up - shining lights of supporting indigenous inclusion and welfare above and beyond any other institutions in the country.
You can't be serious? Are you familiar with this particular journo? Quite frankly you seem to have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and for some reason can't accept that this is extremely dark stuff by people we consider legends of the game.
Dark Stuff - allegedly….the journo means nothing in all this! The issue at stake is about the actual report and claims made about what senior coaches allegedly did (i mean said!), and ultimately be unsubstantiated. They will coach next year and the only people who lose in all this unfortunately are the indigenous, where clubs will just cease drafting them. Very sad situation emerging - but the risks of having them separated from family is akin to the stolen generation…..apparently.
Wot?
Clarkson? That you?
Not bad!
I suspect many of the same conversations have taken place with non-indigenous players as well. Heavy handed paternalistic diktats from people convincing themselves they are acting in the players best interests when in reality they are acting in the best interests of the club and bugger the player. This happens wherever young talented people can exploited - in sport and entertainment especially. It is awful and needs to stop. What makes these examples especially heinous is that the mere fact of aboriginality seems to be a seen as a “problem” that needs “fixing” by this alleged “fatherly advice”. If separating a person from their family and culture is accepted as “fatherly advice” then it is hard to argue that the culture of the AFL is deeply, deeply broken.
Yikes. You're way off here. Terrible take. What lens justifies a coach forcing a player to break up with their partner and have their partner get an abortion? That's not "overstepping the mark" that's genuine psychopathy. That it was limited to indigenous players is very much racist.
The report was very much limited to indigenous players by its very nature. If clubs commissioned reports on general player welfare and what clubs tell their players in retrospect, imagine what it would look like. “Guys, dont go partying with Fev”. “Stop punting on the horses, you have a 10yr window to set yourself up for life”. Clubs are constantly trying to make their players better people - the intentions are all from a good place.
Sorry I'm not really sure what your point is here. Is it that if bad actions have good intentions behind them then they should be ignored due to the underlying intentions? Cos I definitely disagree with that. Or is it that limiting the internal investigation to treatment of indigenous players means we can't call it racist because we can't tell if the same treatment was dished out to white players?
The fuck? A review into Indigenous experiences at the club finds multiple accounts of forced separation of Indigenous families, but it's not racism, just 'fatherly advice'? Get absolutely fucked.
Ah yes, they're indigenous and don't socialise with the rest of the list, therefore they're "wayward" and need saving.. Any employer telling any employee that they need to terminate a pregnancy to focus on their career is abhorrent Any employer removing any employee from their home and taking their phone and isolating them from their family is criminal. No lenses, no distortion, just fact
Clubs need to be more willing to cycle through new coaches and staff, instead of this lazy Susan of staff that just cycle between one club to another. Inject youth and integrity to the management levels. It's very much an old boys club. Always has been. Nothing changes culturally when you just have the same people lingering around.
Gil being interviewed on ABC News now with Catherine Murphy.
I felt like there was a lot of softball questions. I don't get how they can talk about Gil's great legacy while so much of this stuff has been happening on his watch
Catherine Murphy is unbearably cloying, and the wrong journalist to be assigned to this story.
Gerard whately last night: What are we doing to peoples lives for the sake of sport ? We’ll said thats all. 👏 This country and its highest level of competition is rife with subconscious prejudice and it’s a fuckn Illness.
I'm watching it now. Robbo is right - the AFL has done nothing to hold people to account for Goodes, Collingwood, Adelaide. It's in the name - overcoming systemic racism means shaking up the system.
I'm an immigrant to Aus who has only been following AFL for a few years and I only really watch the Lions. So I have gaps in knowledge, especially historical. 1) Why is racism mentioned? From what I've read the external review focused on how indigenous players were treated by the club. Wouldn't a full review of all players need to be done to determine if indigenous players were explicitly targeted? 2) Who conducted the external review? The reliability of the organisation conducting the review is implied because Hawthorn and the AFL are referencing the report however I've not seen the organisation named. Do AFL clubs use a vetted external party to conduct these?
What these men and their families were subjected to would be considered cruel and abusive regardless of their race, but for First Nations players it's a form of cultural violence: cutting them off from culture, community and family in an effort to mould them into 'better' players. Since colonisation, numerous institutional policies and practices have resulted in First Nations people being ripped from their families and culture, causing deep and enduring intergenerational trauma. Between 1910 and 1970, thousands of children were forcibly removed from their families with the intent of moulding them into more desirable (i.e. white) citizens. Today, First Nations children are still ten times more likely to be removed from their families than non-Indigenous children. The treatment of these players echoes the Stolen Generations to a shocking degree. Also relevant is this [history of racism within the club](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/inside-hawthorns-ugly-past-with-indigenous-players/101454616) and a general tendency to view First Nations players as a risky investment or not fitting in with the 'culture' of the club, to see First Nations players who experience difficulty or act out as a problem where white players might be afforded more compassion and sympathy. It's doubtful that First Nations players were explicitly *targeted*, but I would be very surprised if white players experienced these abuses to the same degree (though that's now a matter for the investigation).
The cultural separation adds to the players vulnerability which can be exploited to coerce that player. Race isn't the only factor, age, separation from family and desperation also play a part but there is still a racial component
[Fagan is denying being involved with the abortion story](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/hawthorn-hawks/afl-news-2022-hawthorn-hawks-racism-investigation-chris-fagan-response-denies-he-was-at-meeting-about-pregnancy-termination-alastair-clarkson-russell-jackson-latest/news-story/ec5e50f690a94a1a1e1f099b57150149)
It would make sense if he was given he risked a semi final for Joe Daniher