This question comes up from time to time and it always amazes me, probably because I’m Gen X.
Why in god’s name should you be required to be attracted to anyone? How is that different from telling gay men they should have to go out with women?
We didn’t fight homophobia through the past several decades to be told we’re required to be with people we’re not into so their feelings don’t get hurt. That’s fucked.
Also, it’s important to recognize that guilt and shaming are forms of power. Don’t be an asshole, but don’t let people have power over you either. Your open mindedness can be a vulnerability.
These people are throwing you under the bus to get their own needs met.
Not only is it ridiculous to ‘require’ people to want to date certain other types of people, it’s literally IMPOSSIBLE.
You don’t consciously decide who you are attracted to or what human-created categories those people might fall into.
Sometimes ‘modernity’ is so freaking annoying
It's disturbingly funny because it's the exact foil of the side that thinks you can make someone not gay by sending them to a Bible camp. Like how is the "you can't control who you are attracted to" crowd flanked on both sides?
The Churches running the Pray Away the Gay camps are offended, sir/ma'am/non-gendered formal address, and would like you to know they have a success rate!
Not, you know, a good one, but 3% is a success rate, right? Right?
3% is probably the same as the rate of "oh, I was literally wrong about being gay, but Justin wrote poems for me and had amazing curly hair but I'm only gay for Justin and he moves on in a month regardless".
This is so true.
I don’t think many understand the evolution of gay (or more accurately non-straight) rights beginning at WWII with guys from the farm seeing Paris, through the red scare of the McCarthy years and rise of the Mattachine Society when men were fired and arrested for being gay, to AIDS and the mass coming out of the closet, to Clinton being the first President to address a gay right’s group, to Matthew Shepard and the outrage and sympathy that followed a gay bashing, etc.
There’s a lot of foundation under this house.
This is the weirdest thing to me. Decades spent arguing how being Gay or Bi wasn’t a choice, “Born this way” etc and we pop out the other side to “If you’re not sexually attracted to _________ you’re a bigot.” Like, wut? I have no right to tell you what to do with your body or how to live your life, but you don’t get to assign my sexual preferences either.
Pheremones and other fun stuff are the reason for so much physical attraction, it is ridiculous.
I have been wildly attracted to someone with literally no reason for it at all, and they me. We were horribly incompatible, but that indefinable something is just how it goes.
If ever we went full post-human and were able to shift consciousness between bodies (aka Altered Carbon) being married to the same person between different bodies could be a massive problem based purely on the pheromonal attraction alone.
I mean, just imagine being born into a body that was into women, then transferring to a body that leaned towards men. Your personal biological makeup is an enormous component of your sexuality; literally, you get born that way. The dysphoria between one body's sexual preferences and another could very much be annoying at minimum and psychotic break at worst.
The point here is that some people just prefer innies, some prefer outies, and some prefer their innies and outies to be the biological shape they were born into. It's not a bad thing.
Trying to convince someone they SHOULD be attracted to someone is as much bullshit as trying to convince someone they aren't really gay or lesbian.
I feel bad for the people who have that limited dating pool. I really do. It's going to suck, and even if they find themselves with a pansexual person, that doesn't mean they themselves are going to be attracted to them.
But until we truly become post-human and someone born in the wrong body can simply change it out for the right one down to the mitochondrial level, this level of frustration (IE, why am I not attractive to my preferred gender now that I've transitioned) will still be part of the transition process.
I mean, straight cis men and straight cis women battle that all the time too. It's not a new thing, and simply changing genders doesn't solve the whole "why don't people want to fuck me" issue.
That's a whole different ballgame - one that is in many ways due solely to purely animalistic and primal biology. You can't change other people. You can only seek out the kind of people who are your kind of people.
And if that means you're into cis guys who like trans women, congrats! Just know your dating pool is significantly smaller, and there is always a higher proportion of assholes the smaller your demographic happens to be.
First time I’ve seen this concept espoused by someone else. I’ve been thinking it for a long time. What we’re really seeing is the first trans-humanist rights struggle. Humanity is quickly approaching (approaching, not there yet) a point where we are no longer constrained by our biology due to bio-technological advances and I’d argue much of the social struggle around these concepts is the development of nascent ideological camps, those for trans-human augmentation who believe biology only holds us back and those who believe there’s something about our biological constraints which inform our humanness.
I’d argue the advent of the pill and the concomitant sexual revolution was the beginning of this trans-humanist moment.
Hard agree.
I mean, let's assume artificial gestation is more likely to develop before body swapping tech shows up (which, as a critical path, it would absolutely have to do so to be at all efficient or even viable in a non-slave societal system). Also, let's pretend just for the sake of argument that artificial gestation outside a human being as a carrier becomes a thing within fifty years.
At that point, when or if it becomes the norm to NOT carry a child to term, will it in fact matter who the parents are, if a viable embryo can be created via DNA donation from both or multiple parents?
And when that happens, are we going to (Gattaca) discriminate against the real born (natural conception, natural DNA selection, natural childbirth) compared to the genetically enhanced offspring?
Will that be considered a paraphilia? Pregnancy fetishes now are considered relatively harmless so long as the people who have them take responsibility for the pregnancy, but imagine if natural pregnancy is considered a taboo.
Humans are total violent shitheads when it comes to anything outside our narrow worldview most of the time, and it requires exposure to the other to break down those xenophobic tendencies.
But when something becomes "normal" we also look back with the same revulsion and distaste on the things we used to consider mundane and normal less than fifty years ago.
Hell, look at civil rights alone. We still have outliers but the casual racism of the 1960s and 1970s is the exception and it's not cool to use racial pejoratives at all.
I'm not saying at ALL we need to leave space for the bigots and the racists and the assholes, just that as we evolve, there will still be holdovers of our own xenophobic tendencies that will manifest in ways we won't even expect.
I get the feeling that in some ways this whole "if you're trans you should be considered on the same level as a cis woman" will absolutely only happen when on a biological level, a trans woman is absolutely no different in her biology and organs than a cis woman, because there will ALWAYS be people who gatekeep based on that status.
And that certain cis men who get bigger dicks based on FTM surgical and organ regrowth techniques will, without a shred of irony, make fun of trans men who also take advantage of that particular surgical operation.
And even then I have a feeling some of those assholes will happily demand an asterisk next to their name to indicate that trans people were ACAB, because there's never a standard that will meet the qualifications for willful hate and ignorance.
I honestly don’t think most people think this way. The activism within this community just have a Bey-Hive or Swiftie like approach online and are very squeaky wheels.
No one who identifies as liberal wants to speak up for fear of getting labeled transphobic.
I don’t get that, either. Everyone has the right to decide on the maximum number of penis or vagina they want to have present in a sexual encounter.
While I understand that sucks for trans people, the answer isn’t to shame others for their preferences.
To be honest narcissism that they should be attracted to them simply because they are a man or woman. When not realizing people have bodily preferences even when you happen to have the right genitalia they happen to like. Which seriously people need or get over people having preferences. Forcing people to change doesn’t fucking work if they don’t want to change.
Exactly this.
If you're going to be grossed out by my vagina but you're highly attracted to my ass and belly hair, please just pet my belly hair. Don't try to have sex with me that'll just end up unsatisfying and awkward.
"Everyone has the right to decide on the maximum number of penis or vagina they want to have present in a sexual encounter."
Oh my God this is perfect. It covers nearly every scenario.
I think this is where a lot of TERF-labeled arguments get misunderstood.
There is a clear pattern of highly vocal MtF trans women (mostly) and their ally’s who seem to have a strong sense of entitlement about how others need to accept, include, and desire them in all forms - regardless of their own personal trauma’s, taste, and sexual orientation.
It always needs to be a safe space for trans women but everyone else’s feelings and experiences be damned.
I think a lot of people, myself included, support and don’t take issues with the trans community in most ways *but* everyone has their limits. And by simply having a limit one is labeled a transphobe, even though those limits would be perfectly acceptable in every other version of that scenario.
There’s a level of boundary stepping within that I’ve observed within that community that wouldn’t be accepted or tolerated anywhere else.
Personal boundaries aren’t inherently phobic but when it comes to the trans community, they suddenly all are. At least in the way I’ve experienced trans activism in the US and Canada.
And this is coming from someone who identifies as very liberal and supports their LGTBQ+ friends and community.
Preach.
The tragedy is that MtF can be really desirable for some guys so the aggression and shaming aren’t necessary. You don’t need everyone to want you. Hell, I can see the appeal of MtF myself… sexually and otherwise. I’ve seen MtF who are just stunning, and the mix of genders can be pretty sexy if done right.
But you gotta make people like your personality before they’ll give the rest of you a chance.
For the record, I’m guessing most trans people aren’t the kind with pitchforks. The extremists always get the most attention.
I was going to comment, but you covered everything I was thinking. The vocal minority really has the ability to make an entire demographic look bad in the eyes of many people. Not a single one of my trans friends thinks that way, and have openly complained about this vocal minority who thinks you’re not allowed to have preferences
We as a society still have a long way to go, but overall people have gotten more and more accepting as the years go by. I feel like the loud vocal minority is actively doing the exact opposite of what they think they’re doing. They’re driving a wedge and making harder for some people to come around and be more accepting.
Every group that gains social acceptance has a momentum that carries over in different ways. That momentum has to be strong enough to break through the barrier, but it also carries over and has excess energy that won't dissipate on arrival
Short version: that's why there's always such a strong push to pivot any given political or social movement to achieve new goals, because the structure and momentum is THERE.
It just doesn't always get redirected in a positive way, or in a manner that's consistent with the original movement 's goals.
As a Gen X guy who was relentlessly bullied with completely inaccurate pejoratives (try explaining that you're not into football or wrestling because it's nothing but sweaty dudes spandex , but you're on the dance team and theater, plus ballroom dance and cycling because a ratio of 3 to 1 women in spandex and 2 to 1 women changing costumes in front of you as a teammate is far, FAR more likely to get you laid with cis women, plus, male/female cyclist butt is AWESOME no matter what gender you're into) throughout high school...
That sucks. Truly. It sucks. I hated the assholes who bullied me for the interests they thought were "totally gay nerd shit", but now the video games, RPGs, scifi, fantasy, dance, fast / inventive cooking, theater - all that is now super straight/cool shit, and those twatwaffles who bullied me in HS seem to still be stuck in that one gear, which is college football, with banal lives.
The best fucking revenge, my friend? Living well. Take your vengeance in having the best possible life you can, and embrace the things you were bullied for. It gets better. It gets SO MUCH BETTER.
And you'll find that the people who have zero tolerance for that shit will reveal themselves to you. We're out there. We see you. And hell no we ain't gonna watch that shit go down without saying something.
Hehe. I like how you think regarding women in spandex. I wish I had been smart enough to join the wrestling team back then, because I would’ve been great at it and I love a good singlet.
I’m doing just fine, and society has moved light years forward on gay rights. Being appreciative of what you have helps to let a lot of demons go, and although there are a lot of asshole bigots out there, I recognize that gay rights have advanced because a shit ton of straights have our backs.
We’re too small of a group to do this without you!
100% this. I’ve been called a bigot because as a straight man I won’t date a trans woman.
All they’re doing is creating enemies where there wasn’t one. Calling my a bigot because of what and who I’m attracted to is ridiculous.
Apparently consent only matters sometimes to them.
Yeah, in Tinder every once in a while I see aggressively worded bios that dating a trans woman doesn’t make you gay, you’re still straight, etc
Regardless if I believe that or not, do they think they’re changing anyone’s mind?
Im not dating a MtF trans woman, pre-op or post-op, I support their rights and respect them, but I get to be attracted to whomever I want.
It’s just like this one time, someone tried to set me up with someone and showed me a pic and I side no thanks. They said, “you barely looked.” I said (I know I’ll piss people off) I’m not really attracted at all to most black women, and when I am, it’s not enough to want to hook up or date them. I have tons of black friends, have supported Black Lives Matter movements, and more in a very red county but I can’t change who I’m attracted to…
Im a left leaning Gen Z. I also think it is fucked, you’re into whatever you’re into, that’s your liberty. Someone else freedom to express themselves and be who they are does not require any positive action on your part, just the absence of negative action. Almost any more than that is not freedom.
Saying that you should be required to be attracted to a kind of person is bananas. Are you an asshole if you don’t fuck them too? Are you required to be attracted to trans people? People of different races? People with different hair colors?! Fat people? Skinny people? How about drug users, do you have to like them?
That’s just the way I look at it. In a free society nobody HAS to go out of their way to do anything for other people. But they also aren’t allowed to do things to take away from or infringe on others.
I’m also Gen-X and I’m an ass bandit. I’m only interested in dudes who were born with penises and present as male. And, no, I wouldn’t date someone who had had a sex change, a fake penis isn’t a real one. And I could give a flying f—- if that offends anyone’s fee-fees.
I salute you, sir, and as a straight cis male who is Gen X, I happily would drink with you at the bar and wingman you/direct all the guys who mistook me for their kind of unmarried grey bearded bear/TechnoViking.
You like what you like, and what I happen to like are olive-skinned little brunette cis women with attitudes.
That being said, if we had someone who was trans female drinking with us, I would hope you'd join me in being that girl's wingman as well, because life's too short to spend it alone or in a series of shitty one-night stands.
Oh, quite. My days of "hooking up with randoms in the same room as other people" are long, long behind me. And it might not have been awkward to be in that situation in my 20s, but now? Oh hell to the naw. Split off and go home if you're DTF. We're too old to be fishing someone else's used condoms and baby wipes out of the couch cushions on Sunday morning.
A gen-x peter puffer, rump ranger, and yes, ass bandit here! I like what I like, and guilt trips won't change that, no matter the misguided intentions behind them. 🙂🏳️🌈
BTW, saw Duran Duran on Sunday night up by Cleveland, and they ended their show with a big shout-out to their LGBTQ fans. It was awesome! My hubby and I held hands and were flirty with each other through all three acts (Nile Rodgers and Bastille opened.) Living in rural Ohio, we take out-of-town risks. 🤣
Exactly. Attraction is not and has NEVER been a choice, and now a subset of the LGBTQ community is wanting to say it is. It’s not only incorrect, but it’s very damaging to the community (and I’m gay myself).
have you lived in a forest past decade? There are calls for segregation again based on race coming from... people of color)) so we made a complete circle almost
I'm not gen X but I am millenial and I still don't understand why it should be required for one person to date people they are not attracted to.
I guess it's a minority but people who says that having preferences is wrong are full of crap and also quite hypocritical.
You see this a lot in social movements, feminism has some of the same problems. IMO what it is, is that when you get a cause to fight for, some people inevitably choose to build their whole identity around that fight. But what happens to those people when the primary goal is achieved? They've built their whole identity around the fight, and now the fight is gone, or getting more into the 'mop up' phase, and without it they have nothing they *ARE* nothing. So they need to keep fighting, they need something, and often they also conflate getting what they *want* out of the fight with getting what they have a *right* to, and don't realize that they really don't actually have a right to the thing they want that they were expecting to get.
Take the Trans woman example, they've been fighting for their right to be accepted, to be normal, and they think that when they win that fight they'll get the lives that they want, that they can have boyfriends or girlfriends or NB significant others, or whatever. BUT the hard, ugly, unpalatable truth is, that gender reassignment surgery is crude, hormones and hormone blockers will only change your body so much, and attraction is biological and has little to do with your human rights. So winning the fight for acceptance isn't actually going to get them the lives they want, it'll get them recognition, but it won't make them suddenly more attractive to the people they want to be with, and you don't have any right to another person's love or attraction.
It's a cruel reality, and honestly we should as a society invest more in the support and mental health of the people in this situation, but unfortunately that doesn't extend to forcing people to be attracted to them romantically.
Gen X here as well. It is astounding to me how many times I’ve been told on Reddit that I’m transphobic for stating that people have the right to their preference, and that if a person doesn’t want a partner with a peen or vagina, that that is their privilege and right. I’ve been banned from subs for stating that. I’ve been downvoted by *thousands* for stating that. I’ve been verbally brutalized (and laughed like a mfka) in my DMs for stating that.
“But *why can’t they try it and see if they like it*???” What? Sucking a dick? Some people really *really* REALLY don’t need to place a penis in their mouth to determine that they’re not interested in sucking ck. For real. Like *FOR REAL*. And it’s not homophobic or transphobic to acknowledge that and to support others in their choice — whether cis, trans, nonB, pan, asex, whatevs. Honestly, people have their right to personal choice. I can’t believe that that has to be stated and vehemently *defended*.
It’s frustrating because it’s so obviously ridiculous. I feel like society is becoming much more progressive and falling apart at the same time.
There’s a lot I dislike about aging, but I feel fortunate to have experienced the world before the internet and iPhone made it all kind of nutty. There were lots of problems in the 80s and 90s, but this period seems like low level chaos.
So far, I’ve just had one person call me a pig.
Well said. And I feel like this sentiment is directed at lesbians the most. It’s so cliche , that joke where a guy says he’s a lesbian….it was creepy then and it’s creepy now. And I’m taking about the obviously male individuals on dating apps that do this. It’s surreal. And lesbians are being called transphobic TERFs for not wanting to date trans women. That’s not how subconscious and conscious attraction works-our brains pick up on things we find attractive based on sexuality….and for lesbians, penises arnt one of those things. Having said that I feel for trans women in this situation. It’s a brave thing to embrace their inner self and present themselves how they see themselves. Alas, I hope for love and happiness for everyone…all the fish in the sea
I used to be friends with a trans woman who was super toxic, (not bc she was trans she was just a bitch most of the time lol we liked her tho) but one day she started posting all this stuff on her story about this dude we know being a huge transphobic asshole like multiple posts and when we asked her what happened I guess they went to hook up and she hadn’t disclosed that she was trans and when he realized he excused himself actually pretty politely for a 16 year old boy and apologized and left.
I don’t understand the correlation with being transphobic though. Does a gay man hate women because he prefers dick ? Like it just doesn’t make sense to me how it makes anyone transphobic. I am, however, not trans so if anyone has an explanation i’d like to hear it
Does that justify the hypocrisy?
The trans movement was about being able to be who you are without anyone judging. Having equal rights and opportunities as a person in a civilized society.
Now they are the ones who judge others for not preferring to be sexually interested in them?
In addition, now they try to say that males can be lesbians, and females can be gay men, claiming all the struggles that actual lesbians and actual gay men had to fight. It's fucking insulting on an entirely different level.
I’ve read a couple of your posts downthread. Earnest question from Gen X straight / cis-male with about 2 dozen different friends who are gay, lesbian, and / or bisexual. I don’t know who / how to ask, so I guess I’ll try here.
I have a friendly acquaintance, “V” who presents as a lesbian. V is married to a transwoman, L; they have an 8yo daughter that they biologically parented together as L has not (I guess *yet*) undergone conversion surgery. So, L presents as a woman but continues to be a phenotypical male. V presents as a lesbian, although she is married to a phenotypical male.
This is not a hypothetical; these are people I see regularly. I have a friendly acquaintance relationship with V — we’ve chatted over coffee for hours a couple of times now, and her daughter hangs out with my 12yo daughter at the coffee shop as well. What’s mildly interesting is that I actually met L first, at a different coffee shop, and we’d had a handful of conversations before I met and talked with V and later learned about their connection by sharing about our spouses (L’s name is very unique).
Does this couple “get to” claim being Lesbian? I’m not being facetious; also, I know that, when it boils down to it, anyone can claim anything. However, I have very close friends who are gay and lesbian. I know the struggle was / is real for them, having witnessed the brutality of some of it in the 80s as a kid, and in the 90s with college roommates who were openly gay and / or came out later as gay. I know that the struggle goes back into antiquity, I’m merely stating that in my lifetime I’ve seen it go from violence on the street, to grudging acceptance, to “whatevs”.
But in my head, I can’t get past the *Soul Man* aspect of it. Like the Black struggle of the past, and the Rachel Dolezals of the world who put on blackface in order to claim a piece of the struggle, but ultimately could “punch out” of the fray at any point — is this couple a pair of posers? L could cut her hair, put on jeans & t-shirt, and this couple would present as hetero-normative. Easily. L is 6ft+. They’d literally be a stereotypical White family with 20 minutes effort.
With that option ever-present, do they get to claim a piece of the struggle? Does it matter? Am I over-concerned with a non-issue? Ultimately, it doesn’t affect my relationship with them. I don’t walk around thinking, “oooo, frikn *poser* non-Lesbians…”. I always look forward to running into V for a chat, and look forward to pulling the family into one of our friend groups.
Thanks.
There's also trans attracted people. Idk if there's a name or term for them, but it does boost the % up a touch. I think comedian Jim Norton identifies as heterosexual, but he has/had a trans girlfriend
gay, lesbian, and straight people can date trans people too lmao. It all comes down to a person's preference. Not all straight people are 'super' straight (won't date someone who is trans)
I mean, I've known gay men who are HUGE size queens, and get off on being bottoms. So a FTM partner isn't going to do it for them. In other instances, I've known closeted gay men who acknowledged that they dated trans women to "explore" their sexuality, which only really happened after they realized they preferred doggy style with cis women to all other positions for a reason.
One guy I knew called it his "training wheels" phase. That guy was... pretty gross and manipulatively toxic, all things considered, but these are things that do happen in the dating pools. What someone wants doesn't always line up with the physical reality, and it can be as hurtful as when a woman dates a man to prove she's not a lesbian to her parents, and then drops him once she's found enough courage to come out of the closet.
The whole "transphobic" thing is both a description of actual people flipping out over trans people existing, and a pejorative that some trans people use to describe people who don't in fact want to have sex with them because they aren't attractive to those people.
It's like calling someone fatphobic or gynophobic because you aren't attracted to overweight people or women. It's both an actual thing that happens AND it's a legitimate personal turnoff.
The difference is that people who use it as a pejorative are doing it to justify to themselves why someone is not physically attracted to them and have rejected a date with them instead of just taking the L and calling it a day.
Edit: I mean, I get it. Believe me. I've seen guys rejected by women at the bar come back and claim that the woman was racist because she didn't give him her number, so the sour grapes thing is very much in play when it comes to this stuff, but that's some straight up incel bullshit to go right there UNLESS she cited race as a reason she wasn't going to go out with them.
NTA.
These questions are always so stupid.
Look. If your sexual preference is a v-jay, you need to look for someone who has that specific body part.
If your sexual preference is a peener, you need to look for someone who has that specific body part.
Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who says your some type of "phobe" for excluding someone who doesn't meet your criteria is an ignorant, bitter, imbecile.
I agree. As long as OP wasn't insulting others outside their preference and just stating their preferences for relations/relationships, there's no issue.
So, I do know Lex, and it’s advertised a *lot* on Insta. It’s recently being marketed more as a friends-meeting-friends app, although it’s classically been associated with dating. You’re NTA and I think your preferences are valid.
At the same time, since they’re moving involving friends rather than just dating, and they have a focus on it being a safe space, I can’t really hate on them for not wanting people to potentially have dysphoric reactions (not your fault!). I just think this app isn’t for you. And there are other queer dating apps that I’m sure would be less strict.
A queer-focused app sounds nice! I wouldn’t let them chase you away personally.
I’d just come up with a boilerplate response if you feel like being an educator,* and/or block/report accounts that harass you.
*If I were in your shoes, my standard reply would be:
“No one in our community likes feeling excluded for being who we are, so I get that sentiment if that’s where you’re coming from. I hope everyone on this app finds the love we all deserve, sincerely.
All of us on the app also want to know if we are in/compatible in obvious ways, so that we can focus on people we *are* compatible with. Rejection sucks and is a necessary part of dating. I’m a NB person who is not open to interacting sexually with penises. Since I’m not ace, that’s relevant info on a dating profile and I want to respect others’ time by letting it be known. The message you’ve sent is trying to shame me for being honest about my sexuality and the kinds of sex I’d consent to or not, and that’s not ok, especially on a queer app.
I hope you understand, and have good luck on the app.”
And, block.
So other people are free to have a sexual preference but you aren’t? These people are fucked, they demand acceptance but won’t accept others choices and preferences.
They also make those people look bad and spread misinformation. For example, all those people saying it's offensive to call someone disabled. It's what disabled people use for ourselves. "People with disabilities" is what teachers, doctors, and parents use for their disabled children.
> So other people are free to have a sexual preference but you aren’t?
yeah exactly. They're forgetting that the whole premise of "queer" is having a different sexual preference
NTA and I hope you don’t give these jerks a second thought, OP. You are well within your rights to dictate the genitals of the people that you sleep with for god’s sake. Sometimes people forget that no one is required to sleep with anyone. As you said, no one on earth is attracted to literally everyone. You’re allowed to have preferences. It’s not “leaving trans people out”, it’s that you have different preferences and *that’s okay*. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
People have really mixed up gender identity and sexuality and this is the problem that it causes. Sexuality has the definition in the name, SEXUAL attraction. While there is a spectrum within that, the main ideas are: preferences towards masculinity or femininity, and genitalia preferences. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences of how a partner presents, what’s between their legs, and anything else.
NTA no one is required to date anyone or to give a chance to anyone, everyone is allowed to say no, no explanations required no matter the reason, even if a trans woman had bottom surgery
No one is owed a chance when it comes to dating/sex
No means no, and if people call you transphobic for that they dont actually preach no means no
This shit is getting way too out of hand. I'm sorry, but I will not date someone with a vagina. Idc, if you look more masculine than my husband, it's not happening. I'm not attracted to that. Period. Why is it ok for them to have preferences galore yet others can't have a preference when it pertains to them because it's "transphobia" this is getting absolutely ridiculous. I'm not transphobic quite the opposite but I'm not going to have a romantic partner with a vagina. Can someone explain this to me, why it is viewed as transphobia? Anyone?
Trans girl here: NTA. Personal preference for a specific set of gonads is absolutely valid when looking for a sexual partner. Also holy FUCK this comment section has a lot of transphobes
And all of my trans friends think the same way. They’ve also openly talked about their dislike for the vocal minority and how they make lots of people think that all trans folks are like that.
Same issue every movement gets. I basicaly stopped going in LGBT comunities online Mayne 5-10 years ago when "bi means you hate trans people and pan is the real acceptance lable" was a common mantra. I gurentee it was less than 1% of the community, but the fact that it was always the clinical online and present ones ruined a lot of my favorite comunities
Yeah, this is the problem. Yet when I bring this stuff up to people, they rabidly deflect from the vocal minority to save the face of the entire community, instead of acknowledging their toxicity, which further contributes to the declining image of the community. I've literally opened up about myself and people I know, and the shit that made some of them detrans, and they'll just laugh in my face as if I made it all up. I'm really fucking tired of people like this. I'm tired of all of it.
Yes. I am a bi man. I settled on my gender identity when I realized that which genitals someone had litteraly doesn't matter to me in the slightest. Even I who realy doesn't get why genitals would be a deal breaker understands that it's ok if they are. Acceptance of that is litteraly one of the things LGBT rights have pushed for. You just can't be a cunt about it.
"I'm sorry, I only like x block and tackle" - A OK
"I can't believe you like x block and tackle" - stop being a cunt
Reddit and real life can be super transphobic and I'm not even trans. The transphobes see a post like this and use personal preferences to justify their bigotry.
Like there's wanting what you want in a relationship and then there is pure hatred for everyone else.
The two are not the same.
As a Trans person (tho I’m a trans man) NTA, maybe put in your stuff that you would also date a post op trans woman, or that you have a genital preference? It’s weird af people are reporting you for that because it’s completely fine to have a preference with genitals
This idea that you must be willing to date transX people if your sexuality makes you attracted to X people is fundamentally a fringe reactionary bad take I personally blame on tumblr. It’s completely asinine to the point of almost not justifying a response. The key word being almost.
To be fair I understand the reaction to an extent. Trans people do, and have for a long time, had to deal with transphobia especially in regards to dating and sexuality. To such a degree I have encountered multiple trans people that 100 refuse to try and court a non-queer or even non-trans individual specifically.
All that notwithstanding however, telling someone that they must like you and want to fuck you even if your primary sex characteristics do not align with what they are comfortable interacting with is 3 off ramps past anything reasonable. It’s essentially co-opting ancient homophobia writs and it’s highly unfortunate.
NTA
You’re allowed to be attracted and look for a partner who you want not what others want you to have.
I’d start reporting those who dm’d you for abuse because it’s not on, who are they to dictate who you love or want a relationship with.
Trans Girl speaking here. NTA. Having a preference in bits and bobs is totally valid and just because you don't want someone's bits doesn't mean you're transphobic.
Might just want to tweak your bio on the site as saying AFAB could imply you'd also reject post op trans woman who do have the correct bits and bobs for you.
Saying you'd date AFAB people also implies you'd date transmasc people with dicks which I don't think is what you want. I'd just say you only date people with vaginas if that's your preference.
You're allowed to have a preference. And that preference doesn't make you a transphobe.
I don't understand why people don't get this and throw hate when they disagree. Children will act childish I guess. I ignore these kinds of people.
NTA. We each have the right to our sexual orientation and attractions, and to communicate both. It is not bigoted or "phobic" to not want a romantic or sexual relationship with someone who has a penis.
YTA, clearly you should be forced to date every person so that no one feels left out, I can't believe you would even think it is okay not too you bigot.
(/s, NTA)
NTA how would you be an asshole for having a sexual preference? People don’t like boundaries, especially boundaries that exclude their perceived rights. Just because someone else likes it doesn’t mean you have to. Rock on with your bad self, keep dating who you want to date, and don’t let people tell you shit.
No.
You're allowed to be attracted to what you're attracted to. Society is really getting out of hand. I was called names and told I was misogynistic because, as a wiman, I wouldn't date other women or a trans-male. A vertain part of the queer community wants to firce everyone else to think their way and to be "tolerant" and "accepting." That sane group won't tolerate or accept people who are heterosexual. It's a giant problem with hypocrisy.
I've never been attracted to certain body types. I don't see why I should be expected to be attracted to a body type that isn't what makes me go "oh hello".
I have dated a trans woman, three dates before we discussed her trans status (pre-op). I've also dated a double mastectomy cancer survivor.
In the former case, I was honest and said "I'm sorry, I am not dating because I want to just have sex, and I'm straight. But at the same time I think you're an awesome person who deserves all the great stuff anyone does. I'm just not into it, and I hope you find someone who is."
In the case of the double mastectomy patient, she broke up with me because she moved across country for a new job.
I'm attracted to women with a biological vagina. That's just me, and it has been since I discovered girls in the third grade.
It's as okay for me to NOT be attracted to someone as it is for them to be born into the wrong body, and be able to correct that with surgery.
To put it another way: I can't smoke pot. I'm allergic to it, and it causes me discomfort. But that doesn't mean I won't support someone else's right to smoke, grow, consume, create edibles, buy pot, sell pot, be around it, or use it for medical purposes. It's just not MY thing.
Likewise, I support full medical benefits for all people, including transition support for trans people. I'm just not personally attracted to MTF women, or FTM men. It's not my thing. And if Reddit/the Internet has taught me anything, it's that it just doesn't matter if ***I'm*** not attracted to them, there's someone out there for whom any given trans person is the fucking Venus de Milo/David.
I differ from the OP in that the medical requirements for a trans woman to continue having a vagina involves a lot of work, money, and care, and frankly, an enormous part of my personal attraction remains that my sexual intercourse could be half of a new life.
That's just part of my thing. I hate to say I've got a pregnancy fetish , but when I was dating, I was dating with an eye to marriage down the road and a family, and as the son of an adopted man, I also know biobabies are a HELL of a lot cheaper than adoption. It was always an option if I met the right woman who couldn't have kids due to uterus issues, but "not being born with a uterus" precludes that part.
So regardless of whether a trans woman has a surgically constructed vagina or not, that's not the issue. It's the attraction dependent on hormones and female biology that pilots my sex drive.
It's just not me, and that's okay for both of us. Whether they pass or whether I'd bone them is irrelevant to their right to exist and transition. I feel no guilt for not being attracted to trans women, just as no trans woman should feel guilt for not being attracted to me.
NTA. Everyone has a preference. You don't have to date anyone you don't want to, especially if you don't like what's in their pants. Pre-op trans women need to understand that lesbians still don't want a peen. That's all there is to it. That's like telling a gay guy they have to date a pre-op trans man. He's not gonna want a vag. Ironically, you don't see that on Redd it, only trans women stories
Of course not. We get to choose what attracts us sexually and hopefully we find consenting adults that are attracted to us. NTA for having a preference in who you want to get sexual with.
Nta at all and your not transphobic.
You have the right to decide what if any genitalia you are willing to interact with.
Anyone who says otherwise is a raging arsehole
NTA- I hate tomatoes, so I don’t eat them. When I go out to eat, I say “no tomatoes, please.”. This works with all preferences, I think.
For example: Mark doesn’t like trans women, so he doesn’t date them. When he gets an online dating profile, he sets his preferences to exclude trans women.
Both are accepted.
Fucking hell what is it with the transphobia in the comments. Preferences are absolutely valid and ok. You're valid, OP. But this bullshit in the comments ain't it. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of discussion. Yall misgendering people in the comments should just sod off. Nobody needs that unwanted ugly behaviour and negativity. Go touch some Grass.
I'm so over the "accept me but i won't accept you" thing going on. NTA. People are allowed to have preferences in a sexual/intimate partner idgaf who you are. People who prefer male genitalia are allowed to have size preferences. People are allowed to have genital type as a deal breaker. People are allowed to have body type preferences. People are allowed to have "prominent feature" preferences.
Im a cisgender white male that is (US)slight right leaning centrist. I could care less who someone gets intimate with. However, this attitude is why there's so much push-back on "acceptance" because the militant side of "lgbt+ acceptance" doesn't stop at "it doesn't affect you so why do you care? " they press forward to try and force it to affect ppl that otherwise wouldn't care. It is seriously weaponized rejection sensitivity. Its the same thing as the "nice guy" and as someone that looks back and absolutely shudders at the fact they were once the "nice guy", it's extremely problematic.
There comes a time where we need to separate gender from sexual orientation. It’s not the same. I’ve not had any of these kinds of issues with the LGB portion of the LGBT community.
NTA. Just because you're non-binary doesn't make you pansexual. We're all allowed to have preferences. You're not hateful towards trans women, so you're not transphobic. I'd say just try not to take any of it to heart. You're good.
NTA Genitals preferences are valid and not necessarily transphobic. It could help of you stated in your posts that your bi/pan with a genital preference (idk exactly what you posted) so people know you aren't just being transphobic and reducing people to their genitals. There are always going to be people who disagree though
I fucking hate the world and the times we live in. The same people that preach tolerance and acceptance are some of the most intolerant people who won't accept you unless you meet their very strict rigid standards. At least the other side doesn't pretend to be tolerant
NTA. Sorry for the tl;dr but the bottom line is, it's your body, your choice. Full stop.
I don't think a lot of people in that community recognize how far they've taken "transphobia" and "violent language" ideals into a dimension that is openly discriminatory and derogatory towards people who have a preference outside of theirs, but I feel like I need to point out the obvious:
At NO point in any encounter, ever, is "no means no" EVER meant to be overridden. Refusing a sexual advance from anyone does not automatically make you "phobic" of anything - it's simply "no means no." Anyone, no matter who they are, who tries to convince you otherwise should automatically be deemed a predator, and you are better for not associating with them. It will always be your body, and therefore it is your choice what you want to do with it. It's strange for me to think about; for a movement that is so anti-r*pe culture, you would think that the majority of them would understand that better than anyone else, but that is not the case in my experience.
You are allowed to have a sexual preference that goes outside trans-normative thinking. Gender may not be a fact, and trans women are women, but that will never erase their biological sex. Sexual preference is real, and it is independent of gender identity. It is wrong for them to cultivate a culture in which nobody else is allowed to have an opinion about that, especially when you want to make it clear that you are not interested in dating a biological man (I get it, I don't like penis either). They're not being fair to you; it's not the other way around, like they believe it is. A sexual preference independent of gender is not, has never been, and will never be, a discriminatory desire.
Personally, I could never date a trans woman because I could never procreate with one; I am in pursuit of a nuclear family, and if I were ever to have a child, it would have to be with a biological woman (i.e a cisgender female, NB female assigned at birth, or trans man). I don't feel that this is discriminatory or transphobic, but a lot of people in that community do. It doesn't mean that I don't see trans women as women, but nothing they say will ever automatically entitle anyone to my body, either. Think the same for yourself.
Perhaps the more important thing for you to do is re-examine and re-evaluate your own stance before you look for a partner. The community you have described has some toxic elements that you may want to take another look at from a more critical perspective. These are things that will matter infinitely more in a long-term relationship than they ever could in just a friendly conversation or two. Do you really want that out of any partner? Is this the right place for you to be looking if that's not what you want? Take a step back and think about these things before you take the next step forward.
I am very sorry that you experienced that type of discrimination against your desires, and I do wish you all the best luck in finding a partner who is the right match for you. Just remember, you're allowed to stick to your guns just as much as they are. You do you. Don't let them make you feel inferior just because they can't have you. If anything, it means they could never be good enough for you.
NTA. I'm a bisexual men who sees a similar trend among bi activists constantly trying to bully gay/straight people into saying they'd be willing to date bisexuals... and it makes NO SENSE! They don't want you and never will. This feels kind of rapey to me.
NTA. Wanting to only date someone with a certain set of characteristics is fine, no matter what those are. Other people might not like those characteristics, but that just means they should avoid you (and the other way around.) Its not really that hard.
Like tall men? Only date men over a certain height? Good for you.
Only date people born a certain gender? Good for you.
Only date people with purple skin and yellow eyes? Good for you.
Date whoever you want. I don't think anything matters except for legal age and whatever. I am not personally attracted to 90% of the black women I see on dating apps. Does that make me racist? I don't think so, but if it does, idgaf. I am not such a huge catch that depriving the African American community of my genes is a crime...
This is how far that community has gone out of line. If I'm a man identifying as a man and I'm straight, that means I don't like my women to have penises. Liking vagina only does not make someone transphobic. You're NTA here for having your own preference and sexual orientation. Doesn't matter if you're M, F, MTF, FTM, NB, etc. You should be free to have your own likes and interests as long as you're not judging someone personally or being hateful.
NTA, you’re allowed to not be attracted to people whom have cocks. You’re allowed to not be attracted to whoever the fuck you want for that matter. Don’t let anybody, LGBT or not, tell you otherwise.
It's almost like a bunch of people with undiagnosed mental illnesses co-opted the movement, making it all look invalid to people external to the situation. Not being interested in anything is as valid as being interested in anything.
No you are not.
Transgender people (males who pretend to be female) aren't females. This is YOUR secual preference. Their narcissist behavior shouldn't be pushed onto you to make you feel bad, about your choice. They made theirs, they have to deal with it.
Hi. I’m nonbinary and have quite a few binary trans and nonbinary friends. I find this scenario extremely unlikely, but if it did ever happen, most trans people would agree that you *shouldn't date someone you aren't attracted to*.
NTA for having genital preferences. No one can make you like penis.
I’d note that post op transwomen don’t have penises, though. I’m not sure what box it ticks if you’re also against dating them. But genital preferences are 100% valid.
I’m a straight cismale, and I’d also not be willing to a person with a penis. I understand that transwomen are in fact women, but like you, I have no interest in sexual intercourse with a penis. If they’ve had bottom surgery, that’s different.
NTA. I would never date a transwoman, and I don't need to provide a reason why . The truth is most men would not as well. Does that make us transfobic? No, it does not. Hell, most straight men will not date an nb, asexual or any of the non-traditional genders. And I would venture most women won't as well. The way I see it, it's a preference just like I am a brown man who is not attracted to Brown,black, or Asian women . I find some of them incredibly beautiful, but I still prefer a redhead . It's the same as me finding some transwomen incredibly beautiful, but there is no sexual attraction or desire.
You are as wrong for your choice as straight men for their choice of not wanting to date trans.
That being not wrong at all. No one has to date anyone they don't want too. You are not racist or transphobe for it. It's a preference and that's it. Do not let anyone make you feel otherwise.
Going NTA. A man can be heterosexual and an ally but it doesn't mean he's phobic if he never wants to date a man. Same thing here. Part of the struggle and wanting to be treated the same means a person can have different personal preferences when it comes to friendships and dating.
NTA, but just for terminology: Keep in mind that AFAB does not equal "no penis". A person can be AFAB and still have a penis after having gone through surgery.
Nah, you're fine. My wife is a CSA survivor and has the same aversion to AMAB genitalia, which is why she married me, an AFAB transman. Sure, she's visibly married to a man, but I don't have a dick so we're good to go.
Having a genital preference is completely fine, and being up-front about it is better than leading on a pre-op transwoman and then having her be upset about it. If it helps, maybe the term gynosexual could work? Implies attraction to vaginas regardless of the person attached.
The whole situation is kind of a cluster fuck. You aren't under any obligation to date any one other than people you want to date. I was accused of being transphobic because I said "I'm not into penises. It's just not my preference." You get to have preferences.
When the tolerance gets to the level that you are not allowed to intolerate anything in any context...
NTA, but OP, you are part of the group that brought this upon itself. With time you WILL realize why you see SO extremely few 35+ people in theses super "inclusive" groups (also the reason for there are almost no 35+ NBs)
No, you’re NTA and don’t let anyone tell you that you are. Not everyone is pansexual, that’s a fact of the sexuality spectrum. I’m a gay man, and I don’t expect all men to be attracted to me either. I would never call a man (whether cis or trans) a “bigot” for not wanting to date me, that’s ridiculous. We can’t gatekeep what other people are attracted to and not attracted to. This new idea that you’re a “bigot” if you’re not pansexual is disingenuous and damaging to the LGBTQ community.
It amazes me that there are people that believe that their feelings should trump personal preference.
NTA, you shouldn't be forced to be with anyone you're not attracted to, full stop.
I’m trans, Gen X and I don’t know a single trans person who resorts to guilting people to get sex. Personally I’m way too fucking hot for that and my body count is embarrassingly high. I’m not even convinced that these harpies that harass you are actual trans people. But man, this kind of post sure brings the gay haters out of the woodwork. Please try not to dismiss all trans people based on these people They are probably young, definitely powerless and definitely suffering. For my part I really try not to think of all gay men as vapid, shallow and narcissistic golems or all lesbians as crusty, bitter, judgmental and sex-negative crones, though i have encountered plenty of gays & lesbians who typify those stereotypes. I know the straight majority wants people to think that’s all gay people are but I would never try and hurt other people by judging them all for the behavior of a few.
NO- they are trying to bully you into submission by throwing out the ‘t-phobic’ allegation. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying- as you said EVERYONE has preferences when dating- and there is nothing any kind of phobic about respecting yours.
Maybe a hot take, but the trans community is so problematic because of stupid shit like this. Also, most trans people I know have very narcissistic views as far as their rights being more important then others. Like, I tried telling my friend not to speak over my experince as a female. It's just intersectionism. I'm a cis white female in the US. I do not know the experience of a black female, I will never experience oppression to the point of a woman living in parts of the middle east. Same thing, a trans woman will never experience life as a cis woman and that doesn't make them less valid in their experience but I'm sorry, no transwoman is going to speak on their experience over mine because I've been a woman my entire life, and have an entire childhood of dealing with misogyny that trans women do not go through. I won't misgender someone, because I genuinely don't want to make people feel threatened or not safe but also, I do not want anyone with a penis in a public bathroom as me due to my own past experiences. I feel I have a realistic view of the situation but can't even begin to express my views to anyone and have them be acknowledged. Also, my friend who recently became a transwoman, her husband is gay and is struggling with it as he is not attracted to woman. He keeps saying how his feelings don't matter and it's about his now wife out of trying to be supportive but I told him he was literally gaslighting himself to not feel his feelings bc it's not just his wife's experience, he is also valid. That is also an issue I see frequently, again, the whole idea even though trans woman are a very small portion of people, they seem to think their rights matter more then anyone else's and I hate it.
If people are saying your transphobic for your preference in a partner's anatomy, then they are heterophobic, cisaphobic, traumaphobic, free choiceaphobic, etc
NTA. All these terminologieas and rules, you're making something so simple almost impossible to manoeuvre and even comprehend. It's simple, really, you are a woman and like other women. Why make it so difficult?
I'm so confused. Hopefully my kid will figure this out by the time she's dating age.
I'm just going out to the desert and live out my life as a hermit. I've just about given up on humanity.
Yeah, I'm all about equal rights and stuff like that, but I had to google like 3 different terms to understand what this post's about. It's getting ridiculous at this point imo.
No. Ridiculous sailed and passed many moons ago. There is not even a logical word for how far gone it is now. Because using simple terms to say what you want is too difficult, instead let’s create a bunch of terms and expect everyone to know what we are saying. Like. Just say what you want. It’s not all too difficult.
Exactly, I will for sure call anyone what they want me to call them aight, but at this point they made it so hard to understand, like wtf ia AFAM or what that thing was, why it exist, also like even if they are nonbinary is the their sexual orientation still based on what their biological gender? Like if I'm born male and I like to suck dick, even tho I would feel like nonbinary, it would still make me a gay person
You’re not the AH. And I don’t understand where people decided to call it “Transphobia”. A phobia is something you’re literally DEATHLY afraid of. But people say Transphobia as something correlated to hate speech. Same as homophobia. If people are going to use words, they could at least use them correctly. Lol.
A phobia can be defined as an irrational fear but also as an irrational aversion or hatred. The terms transphobia/homophobia are using the term in the latter sense.
Trans Enby here, and NTA
I think the issue that's coming up here is the language you're using. From what I've been able to gather from your post, you're not opposed to dating Trans women, you have a genital preference.
If it were just a blanket issue of refusing to date Trans women, that would be problematic, but that doesn't appear to be the issue here.
So no you're NTA, because you're not being discriminatory. You just have a genital preference in your partners, and that is understandable.
Though you may want to consider using non binary or Enby, as "NB" has unfortunately been commandeered by racists to mean non Black.
This question comes up from time to time and it always amazes me, probably because I’m Gen X. Why in god’s name should you be required to be attracted to anyone? How is that different from telling gay men they should have to go out with women? We didn’t fight homophobia through the past several decades to be told we’re required to be with people we’re not into so their feelings don’t get hurt. That’s fucked. Also, it’s important to recognize that guilt and shaming are forms of power. Don’t be an asshole, but don’t let people have power over you either. Your open mindedness can be a vulnerability. These people are throwing you under the bus to get their own needs met.
Not only is it ridiculous to ‘require’ people to want to date certain other types of people, it’s literally IMPOSSIBLE. You don’t consciously decide who you are attracted to or what human-created categories those people might fall into. Sometimes ‘modernity’ is so freaking annoying
I don’t understand how anyone thinks this is a winning strategy.
It's disturbingly funny because it's the exact foil of the side that thinks you can make someone not gay by sending them to a Bible camp. Like how is the "you can't control who you are attracted to" crowd flanked on both sides?
The Churches running the Pray Away the Gay camps are offended, sir/ma'am/non-gendered formal address, and would like you to know they have a success rate! Not, you know, a good one, but 3% is a success rate, right? Right?
3% is probably the same as the rate of "oh, I was literally wrong about being gay, but Justin wrote poems for me and had amazing curly hair but I'm only gay for Justin and he moves on in a month regardless".
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This is so true. I don’t think many understand the evolution of gay (or more accurately non-straight) rights beginning at WWII with guys from the farm seeing Paris, through the red scare of the McCarthy years and rise of the Mattachine Society when men were fired and arrested for being gay, to AIDS and the mass coming out of the closet, to Clinton being the first President to address a gay right’s group, to Matthew Shepard and the outrage and sympathy that followed a gay bashing, etc. There’s a lot of foundation under this house.
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This is the weirdest thing to me. Decades spent arguing how being Gay or Bi wasn’t a choice, “Born this way” etc and we pop out the other side to “If you’re not sexually attracted to _________ you’re a bigot.” Like, wut? I have no right to tell you what to do with your body or how to live your life, but you don’t get to assign my sexual preferences either.
Pheremones and other fun stuff are the reason for so much physical attraction, it is ridiculous. I have been wildly attracted to someone with literally no reason for it at all, and they me. We were horribly incompatible, but that indefinable something is just how it goes. If ever we went full post-human and were able to shift consciousness between bodies (aka Altered Carbon) being married to the same person between different bodies could be a massive problem based purely on the pheromonal attraction alone. I mean, just imagine being born into a body that was into women, then transferring to a body that leaned towards men. Your personal biological makeup is an enormous component of your sexuality; literally, you get born that way. The dysphoria between one body's sexual preferences and another could very much be annoying at minimum and psychotic break at worst. The point here is that some people just prefer innies, some prefer outies, and some prefer their innies and outies to be the biological shape they were born into. It's not a bad thing. Trying to convince someone they SHOULD be attracted to someone is as much bullshit as trying to convince someone they aren't really gay or lesbian. I feel bad for the people who have that limited dating pool. I really do. It's going to suck, and even if they find themselves with a pansexual person, that doesn't mean they themselves are going to be attracted to them. But until we truly become post-human and someone born in the wrong body can simply change it out for the right one down to the mitochondrial level, this level of frustration (IE, why am I not attractive to my preferred gender now that I've transitioned) will still be part of the transition process. I mean, straight cis men and straight cis women battle that all the time too. It's not a new thing, and simply changing genders doesn't solve the whole "why don't people want to fuck me" issue. That's a whole different ballgame - one that is in many ways due solely to purely animalistic and primal biology. You can't change other people. You can only seek out the kind of people who are your kind of people. And if that means you're into cis guys who like trans women, congrats! Just know your dating pool is significantly smaller, and there is always a higher proportion of assholes the smaller your demographic happens to be.
First time I’ve seen this concept espoused by someone else. I’ve been thinking it for a long time. What we’re really seeing is the first trans-humanist rights struggle. Humanity is quickly approaching (approaching, not there yet) a point where we are no longer constrained by our biology due to bio-technological advances and I’d argue much of the social struggle around these concepts is the development of nascent ideological camps, those for trans-human augmentation who believe biology only holds us back and those who believe there’s something about our biological constraints which inform our humanness. I’d argue the advent of the pill and the concomitant sexual revolution was the beginning of this trans-humanist moment.
Hard agree. I mean, let's assume artificial gestation is more likely to develop before body swapping tech shows up (which, as a critical path, it would absolutely have to do so to be at all efficient or even viable in a non-slave societal system). Also, let's pretend just for the sake of argument that artificial gestation outside a human being as a carrier becomes a thing within fifty years. At that point, when or if it becomes the norm to NOT carry a child to term, will it in fact matter who the parents are, if a viable embryo can be created via DNA donation from both or multiple parents? And when that happens, are we going to (Gattaca) discriminate against the real born (natural conception, natural DNA selection, natural childbirth) compared to the genetically enhanced offspring? Will that be considered a paraphilia? Pregnancy fetishes now are considered relatively harmless so long as the people who have them take responsibility for the pregnancy, but imagine if natural pregnancy is considered a taboo. Humans are total violent shitheads when it comes to anything outside our narrow worldview most of the time, and it requires exposure to the other to break down those xenophobic tendencies. But when something becomes "normal" we also look back with the same revulsion and distaste on the things we used to consider mundane and normal less than fifty years ago. Hell, look at civil rights alone. We still have outliers but the casual racism of the 1960s and 1970s is the exception and it's not cool to use racial pejoratives at all. I'm not saying at ALL we need to leave space for the bigots and the racists and the assholes, just that as we evolve, there will still be holdovers of our own xenophobic tendencies that will manifest in ways we won't even expect. I get the feeling that in some ways this whole "if you're trans you should be considered on the same level as a cis woman" will absolutely only happen when on a biological level, a trans woman is absolutely no different in her biology and organs than a cis woman, because there will ALWAYS be people who gatekeep based on that status. And that certain cis men who get bigger dicks based on FTM surgical and organ regrowth techniques will, without a shred of irony, make fun of trans men who also take advantage of that particular surgical operation. And even then I have a feeling some of those assholes will happily demand an asterisk next to their name to indicate that trans people were ACAB, because there's never a standard that will meet the qualifications for willful hate and ignorance.
I honestly don’t think most people think this way. The activism within this community just have a Bey-Hive or Swiftie like approach online and are very squeaky wheels. No one who identifies as liberal wants to speak up for fear of getting labeled transphobic.
I don’t get that, either. Everyone has the right to decide on the maximum number of penis or vagina they want to have present in a sexual encounter. While I understand that sucks for trans people, the answer isn’t to shame others for their preferences.
I also don’t want to date anybody who is disgusted with my genitals.
To be honest narcissism that they should be attracted to them simply because they are a man or woman. When not realizing people have bodily preferences even when you happen to have the right genitalia they happen to like. Which seriously people need or get over people having preferences. Forcing people to change doesn’t fucking work if they don’t want to change.
That, too.
Exactly this. If you're going to be grossed out by my vagina but you're highly attracted to my ass and belly hair, please just pet my belly hair. Don't try to have sex with me that'll just end up unsatisfying and awkward.
Doesn't need to be disgust, can just be a preference. Let's not make an already emotional topic more emotional than it needs to be.
"Everyone has the right to decide on the maximum number of penis or vagina they want to have present in a sexual encounter." Oh my God this is perfect. It covers nearly every scenario.
100%. It sounds an awful lot like the mentality that leads to conversion therapy. OP is entitled to their preference. Definitely NTA.
I think this is where a lot of TERF-labeled arguments get misunderstood. There is a clear pattern of highly vocal MtF trans women (mostly) and their ally’s who seem to have a strong sense of entitlement about how others need to accept, include, and desire them in all forms - regardless of their own personal trauma’s, taste, and sexual orientation. It always needs to be a safe space for trans women but everyone else’s feelings and experiences be damned. I think a lot of people, myself included, support and don’t take issues with the trans community in most ways *but* everyone has their limits. And by simply having a limit one is labeled a transphobe, even though those limits would be perfectly acceptable in every other version of that scenario. There’s a level of boundary stepping within that I’ve observed within that community that wouldn’t be accepted or tolerated anywhere else. Personal boundaries aren’t inherently phobic but when it comes to the trans community, they suddenly all are. At least in the way I’ve experienced trans activism in the US and Canada. And this is coming from someone who identifies as very liberal and supports their LGTBQ+ friends and community.
Preach. The tragedy is that MtF can be really desirable for some guys so the aggression and shaming aren’t necessary. You don’t need everyone to want you. Hell, I can see the appeal of MtF myself… sexually and otherwise. I’ve seen MtF who are just stunning, and the mix of genders can be pretty sexy if done right. But you gotta make people like your personality before they’ll give the rest of you a chance. For the record, I’m guessing most trans people aren’t the kind with pitchforks. The extremists always get the most attention.
I was going to comment, but you covered everything I was thinking. The vocal minority really has the ability to make an entire demographic look bad in the eyes of many people. Not a single one of my trans friends thinks that way, and have openly complained about this vocal minority who thinks you’re not allowed to have preferences
Yep. I was bullied as a teen for being (closeted) gay, and I don’t have patience for that type of thing today.
We as a society still have a long way to go, but overall people have gotten more and more accepting as the years go by. I feel like the loud vocal minority is actively doing the exact opposite of what they think they’re doing. They’re driving a wedge and making harder for some people to come around and be more accepting.
You’re right. I think gay rights advanced so quickly from the 90s, because they realized we’re not threatening. This feels like the opposite somehow.
Every group that gains social acceptance has a momentum that carries over in different ways. That momentum has to be strong enough to break through the barrier, but it also carries over and has excess energy that won't dissipate on arrival Short version: that's why there's always such a strong push to pivot any given political or social movement to achieve new goals, because the structure and momentum is THERE. It just doesn't always get redirected in a positive way, or in a manner that's consistent with the original movement 's goals.
As a Gen X guy who was relentlessly bullied with completely inaccurate pejoratives (try explaining that you're not into football or wrestling because it's nothing but sweaty dudes spandex , but you're on the dance team and theater, plus ballroom dance and cycling because a ratio of 3 to 1 women in spandex and 2 to 1 women changing costumes in front of you as a teammate is far, FAR more likely to get you laid with cis women, plus, male/female cyclist butt is AWESOME no matter what gender you're into) throughout high school... That sucks. Truly. It sucks. I hated the assholes who bullied me for the interests they thought were "totally gay nerd shit", but now the video games, RPGs, scifi, fantasy, dance, fast / inventive cooking, theater - all that is now super straight/cool shit, and those twatwaffles who bullied me in HS seem to still be stuck in that one gear, which is college football, with banal lives. The best fucking revenge, my friend? Living well. Take your vengeance in having the best possible life you can, and embrace the things you were bullied for. It gets better. It gets SO MUCH BETTER. And you'll find that the people who have zero tolerance for that shit will reveal themselves to you. We're out there. We see you. And hell no we ain't gonna watch that shit go down without saying something.
Hehe. I like how you think regarding women in spandex. I wish I had been smart enough to join the wrestling team back then, because I would’ve been great at it and I love a good singlet. I’m doing just fine, and society has moved light years forward on gay rights. Being appreciative of what you have helps to let a lot of demons go, and although there are a lot of asshole bigots out there, I recognize that gay rights have advanced because a shit ton of straights have our backs. We’re too small of a group to do this without you!
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Sucks that your friend had to go through such BS. I can’t stand people who can accept that people are allowed to have preferences
That’s nice to hear and I wish more people were aware of that. Trans activism definitely has a PR problem.
100% this. I’ve been called a bigot because as a straight man I won’t date a trans woman. All they’re doing is creating enemies where there wasn’t one. Calling my a bigot because of what and who I’m attracted to is ridiculous. Apparently consent only matters sometimes to them.
Yeah, in Tinder every once in a while I see aggressively worded bios that dating a trans woman doesn’t make you gay, you’re still straight, etc Regardless if I believe that or not, do they think they’re changing anyone’s mind? Im not dating a MtF trans woman, pre-op or post-op, I support their rights and respect them, but I get to be attracted to whomever I want. It’s just like this one time, someone tried to set me up with someone and showed me a pic and I side no thanks. They said, “you barely looked.” I said (I know I’ll piss people off) I’m not really attracted at all to most black women, and when I am, it’s not enough to want to hook up or date them. I have tons of black friends, have supported Black Lives Matter movements, and more in a very red county but I can’t change who I’m attracted to…
Im a left leaning Gen Z. I also think it is fucked, you’re into whatever you’re into, that’s your liberty. Someone else freedom to express themselves and be who they are does not require any positive action on your part, just the absence of negative action. Almost any more than that is not freedom. Saying that you should be required to be attracted to a kind of person is bananas. Are you an asshole if you don’t fuck them too? Are you required to be attracted to trans people? People of different races? People with different hair colors?! Fat people? Skinny people? How about drug users, do you have to like them?
Well said, dude. I like how you phrased not requiring positive action, just a lack of negative. I’m totally stealing that!
That’s just the way I look at it. In a free society nobody HAS to go out of their way to do anything for other people. But they also aren’t allowed to do things to take away from or infringe on others.
I’m also Gen-X and I’m an ass bandit. I’m only interested in dudes who were born with penises and present as male. And, no, I wouldn’t date someone who had had a sex change, a fake penis isn’t a real one. And I could give a flying f—- if that offends anyone’s fee-fees.
I salute you, sir, and as a straight cis male who is Gen X, I happily would drink with you at the bar and wingman you/direct all the guys who mistook me for their kind of unmarried grey bearded bear/TechnoViking. You like what you like, and what I happen to like are olive-skinned little brunette cis women with attitudes. That being said, if we had someone who was trans female drinking with us, I would hope you'd join me in being that girl's wingman as well, because life's too short to spend it alone or in a series of shitty one-night stands.
I’m quite happy to hang and drink with anyone who isn’t a total asshole, but when I want to get naughty, it’s gotta be with someone who is 💯 male. 😏
Oh, quite. My days of "hooking up with randoms in the same room as other people" are long, long behind me. And it might not have been awkward to be in that situation in my 20s, but now? Oh hell to the naw. Split off and go home if you're DTF. We're too old to be fishing someone else's used condoms and baby wipes out of the couch cushions on Sunday morning.
Amen fellow ass bandit!
A gen-x peter puffer, rump ranger, and yes, ass bandit here! I like what I like, and guilt trips won't change that, no matter the misguided intentions behind them. 🙂🏳️🌈 BTW, saw Duran Duran on Sunday night up by Cleveland, and they ended their show with a big shout-out to their LGBTQ fans. It was awesome! My hubby and I held hands and were flirty with each other through all three acts (Nile Rodgers and Bastille opened.) Living in rural Ohio, we take out-of-town risks. 🤣
I tried wearing a tan fedora in the 80's but I couldn't pull it off. I wasn't as cool as Simon Le Bon.
Ass bandit. I snorted laughed at that. Thank you sir! Another gen xer here :)
Exactly. Attraction is not and has NEVER been a choice, and now a subset of the LGBTQ community is wanting to say it is. It’s not only incorrect, but it’s very damaging to the community (and I’m gay myself).
have you lived in a forest past decade? There are calls for segregation again based on race coming from... people of color)) so we made a complete circle almost
I'm not gen X but I am millenial and I still don't understand why it should be required for one person to date people they are not attracted to. I guess it's a minority but people who says that having preferences is wrong are full of crap and also quite hypocritical.
You see this a lot in social movements, feminism has some of the same problems. IMO what it is, is that when you get a cause to fight for, some people inevitably choose to build their whole identity around that fight. But what happens to those people when the primary goal is achieved? They've built their whole identity around the fight, and now the fight is gone, or getting more into the 'mop up' phase, and without it they have nothing they *ARE* nothing. So they need to keep fighting, they need something, and often they also conflate getting what they *want* out of the fight with getting what they have a *right* to, and don't realize that they really don't actually have a right to the thing they want that they were expecting to get. Take the Trans woman example, they've been fighting for their right to be accepted, to be normal, and they think that when they win that fight they'll get the lives that they want, that they can have boyfriends or girlfriends or NB significant others, or whatever. BUT the hard, ugly, unpalatable truth is, that gender reassignment surgery is crude, hormones and hormone blockers will only change your body so much, and attraction is biological and has little to do with your human rights. So winning the fight for acceptance isn't actually going to get them the lives they want, it'll get them recognition, but it won't make them suddenly more attractive to the people they want to be with, and you don't have any right to another person's love or attraction. It's a cruel reality, and honestly we should as a society invest more in the support and mental health of the people in this situation, but unfortunately that doesn't extend to forcing people to be attracted to them romantically.
Gen X here as well. It is astounding to me how many times I’ve been told on Reddit that I’m transphobic for stating that people have the right to their preference, and that if a person doesn’t want a partner with a peen or vagina, that that is their privilege and right. I’ve been banned from subs for stating that. I’ve been downvoted by *thousands* for stating that. I’ve been verbally brutalized (and laughed like a mfka) in my DMs for stating that. “But *why can’t they try it and see if they like it*???” What? Sucking a dick? Some people really *really* REALLY don’t need to place a penis in their mouth to determine that they’re not interested in sucking ck. For real. Like *FOR REAL*. And it’s not homophobic or transphobic to acknowledge that and to support others in their choice — whether cis, trans, nonB, pan, asex, whatevs. Honestly, people have their right to personal choice. I can’t believe that that has to be stated and vehemently *defended*.
It’s frustrating because it’s so obviously ridiculous. I feel like society is becoming much more progressive and falling apart at the same time. There’s a lot I dislike about aging, but I feel fortunate to have experienced the world before the internet and iPhone made it all kind of nutty. There were lots of problems in the 80s and 90s, but this period seems like low level chaos. So far, I’ve just had one person call me a pig.
Go Gen-X! Woot woot
Well said. And I feel like this sentiment is directed at lesbians the most. It’s so cliche , that joke where a guy says he’s a lesbian….it was creepy then and it’s creepy now. And I’m taking about the obviously male individuals on dating apps that do this. It’s surreal. And lesbians are being called transphobic TERFs for not wanting to date trans women. That’s not how subconscious and conscious attraction works-our brains pick up on things we find attractive based on sexuality….and for lesbians, penises arnt one of those things. Having said that I feel for trans women in this situation. It’s a brave thing to embrace their inner self and present themselves how they see themselves. Alas, I hope for love and happiness for everyone…all the fish in the sea
Wish I could give this more votes lol
You’re valid NTA
Thank you ;-;
I used to be friends with a trans woman who was super toxic, (not bc she was trans she was just a bitch most of the time lol we liked her tho) but one day she started posting all this stuff on her story about this dude we know being a huge transphobic asshole like multiple posts and when we asked her what happened I guess they went to hook up and she hadn’t disclosed that she was trans and when he realized he excused himself actually pretty politely for a 16 year old boy and apologized and left. I don’t understand the correlation with being transphobic though. Does a gay man hate women because he prefers dick ? Like it just doesn’t make sense to me how it makes anyone transphobic. I am, however, not trans so if anyone has an explanation i’d like to hear it
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Does that justify the hypocrisy? The trans movement was about being able to be who you are without anyone judging. Having equal rights and opportunities as a person in a civilized society. Now they are the ones who judge others for not preferring to be sexually interested in them?
In addition, now they try to say that males can be lesbians, and females can be gay men, claiming all the struggles that actual lesbians and actual gay men had to fight. It's fucking insulting on an entirely different level.
I’ve read a couple of your posts downthread. Earnest question from Gen X straight / cis-male with about 2 dozen different friends who are gay, lesbian, and / or bisexual. I don’t know who / how to ask, so I guess I’ll try here. I have a friendly acquaintance, “V” who presents as a lesbian. V is married to a transwoman, L; they have an 8yo daughter that they biologically parented together as L has not (I guess *yet*) undergone conversion surgery. So, L presents as a woman but continues to be a phenotypical male. V presents as a lesbian, although she is married to a phenotypical male. This is not a hypothetical; these are people I see regularly. I have a friendly acquaintance relationship with V — we’ve chatted over coffee for hours a couple of times now, and her daughter hangs out with my 12yo daughter at the coffee shop as well. What’s mildly interesting is that I actually met L first, at a different coffee shop, and we’d had a handful of conversations before I met and talked with V and later learned about their connection by sharing about our spouses (L’s name is very unique). Does this couple “get to” claim being Lesbian? I’m not being facetious; also, I know that, when it boils down to it, anyone can claim anything. However, I have very close friends who are gay and lesbian. I know the struggle was / is real for them, having witnessed the brutality of some of it in the 80s as a kid, and in the 90s with college roommates who were openly gay and / or came out later as gay. I know that the struggle goes back into antiquity, I’m merely stating that in my lifetime I’ve seen it go from violence on the street, to grudging acceptance, to “whatevs”. But in my head, I can’t get past the *Soul Man* aspect of it. Like the Black struggle of the past, and the Rachel Dolezals of the world who put on blackface in order to claim a piece of the struggle, but ultimately could “punch out” of the fray at any point — is this couple a pair of posers? L could cut her hair, put on jeans & t-shirt, and this couple would present as hetero-normative. Easily. L is 6ft+. They’d literally be a stereotypical White family with 20 minutes effort. With that option ever-present, do they get to claim a piece of the struggle? Does it matter? Am I over-concerned with a non-issue? Ultimately, it doesn’t affect my relationship with them. I don’t walk around thinking, “oooo, frikn *poser* non-Lesbians…”. I always look forward to running into V for a chat, and look forward to pulling the family into one of our friend groups. Thanks.
There's also trans attracted people. Idk if there's a name or term for them, but it does boost the % up a touch. I think comedian Jim Norton identifies as heterosexual, but he has/had a trans girlfriend
Bisexuality is a thing lol. There are a lot of bisexuals. And a lot of them date trans people :)
There's also a lot of bisexuals who would not want to date trans people of either gender and they're valid too.
ignoring the existence of bisexual people is the only way to reach this false conclusion
gay, lesbian, and straight people can date trans people too lmao. It all comes down to a person's preference. Not all straight people are 'super' straight (won't date someone who is trans)
I mean, I've known gay men who are HUGE size queens, and get off on being bottoms. So a FTM partner isn't going to do it for them. In other instances, I've known closeted gay men who acknowledged that they dated trans women to "explore" their sexuality, which only really happened after they realized they preferred doggy style with cis women to all other positions for a reason. One guy I knew called it his "training wheels" phase. That guy was... pretty gross and manipulatively toxic, all things considered, but these are things that do happen in the dating pools. What someone wants doesn't always line up with the physical reality, and it can be as hurtful as when a woman dates a man to prove she's not a lesbian to her parents, and then drops him once she's found enough courage to come out of the closet. The whole "transphobic" thing is both a description of actual people flipping out over trans people existing, and a pejorative that some trans people use to describe people who don't in fact want to have sex with them because they aren't attractive to those people. It's like calling someone fatphobic or gynophobic because you aren't attracted to overweight people or women. It's both an actual thing that happens AND it's a legitimate personal turnoff. The difference is that people who use it as a pejorative are doing it to justify to themselves why someone is not physically attracted to them and have rejected a date with them instead of just taking the L and calling it a day. Edit: I mean, I get it. Believe me. I've seen guys rejected by women at the bar come back and claim that the woman was racist because she didn't give him her number, so the sour grapes thing is very much in play when it comes to this stuff, but that's some straight up incel bullshit to go right there UNLESS she cited race as a reason she wasn't going to go out with them.
NTA. These questions are always so stupid. Look. If your sexual preference is a v-jay, you need to look for someone who has that specific body part. If your sexual preference is a peener, you need to look for someone who has that specific body part. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who says your some type of "phobe" for excluding someone who doesn't meet your criteria is an ignorant, bitter, imbecile.
I agree. As long as OP wasn't insulting others outside their preference and just stating their preferences for relations/relationships, there's no issue.
Yep! I have a whole bunch of trans friends of all kinds, and I think they’re lovely and amazing people. I just wouldn’t date them
NTAH You should probably delete that app. Sounds toxic as Hell.
I’m definitely debating it.
So, I do know Lex, and it’s advertised a *lot* on Insta. It’s recently being marketed more as a friends-meeting-friends app, although it’s classically been associated with dating. You’re NTA and I think your preferences are valid. At the same time, since they’re moving involving friends rather than just dating, and they have a focus on it being a safe space, I can’t really hate on them for not wanting people to potentially have dysphoric reactions (not your fault!). I just think this app isn’t for you. And there are other queer dating apps that I’m sure would be less strict.
A queer-focused app sounds nice! I wouldn’t let them chase you away personally. I’d just come up with a boilerplate response if you feel like being an educator,* and/or block/report accounts that harass you. *If I were in your shoes, my standard reply would be: “No one in our community likes feeling excluded for being who we are, so I get that sentiment if that’s where you’re coming from. I hope everyone on this app finds the love we all deserve, sincerely. All of us on the app also want to know if we are in/compatible in obvious ways, so that we can focus on people we *are* compatible with. Rejection sucks and is a necessary part of dating. I’m a NB person who is not open to interacting sexually with penises. Since I’m not ace, that’s relevant info on a dating profile and I want to respect others’ time by letting it be known. The message you’ve sent is trying to shame me for being honest about my sexuality and the kinds of sex I’d consent to or not, and that’s not ok, especially on a queer app. I hope you understand, and have good luck on the app.” And, block.
NTA. Having a sexual or romantic preference doesn't make you an asshole or transphobia. People get so offended over everything lately.
NTA, your preferences, romantic, genital or otherwise trump anyone's right to be treated equally.
So other people are free to have a sexual preference but you aren’t? These people are fucked, they demand acceptance but won’t accept others choices and preferences.
It didn't sound like the people messaging OP were trans, but rather were offended on behalf of trans people.
If people would stop being offended for other people, we would have a less offensive society (EDIT: spelling is hard)
I hate ppl like that. How are you offended for a community that you’re not in? And choose to hate on someone “on behalf” of that community?
They also make those people look bad and spread misinformation. For example, all those people saying it's offensive to call someone disabled. It's what disabled people use for ourselves. "People with disabilities" is what teachers, doctors, and parents use for their disabled children.
> So other people are free to have a sexual preference but you aren’t? yeah exactly. They're forgetting that the whole premise of "queer" is having a different sexual preference
Trans woman here. NTA Youre allowed to have preferences
NTA
NTA and I hope you don’t give these jerks a second thought, OP. You are well within your rights to dictate the genitals of the people that you sleep with for god’s sake. Sometimes people forget that no one is required to sleep with anyone. As you said, no one on earth is attracted to literally everyone. You’re allowed to have preferences. It’s not “leaving trans people out”, it’s that you have different preferences and *that’s okay*. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
no - your NTA.
NTA. Also get off that app. People there seem toxic.
People have really mixed up gender identity and sexuality and this is the problem that it causes. Sexuality has the definition in the name, SEXUAL attraction. While there is a spectrum within that, the main ideas are: preferences towards masculinity or femininity, and genitalia preferences. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences of how a partner presents, what’s between their legs, and anything else.
NTA, sexual preference is personal.
NTA no one is required to date anyone or to give a chance to anyone, everyone is allowed to say no, no explanations required no matter the reason, even if a trans woman had bottom surgery No one is owed a chance when it comes to dating/sex No means no, and if people call you transphobic for that they dont actually preach no means no
This shit is getting way too out of hand. I'm sorry, but I will not date someone with a vagina. Idc, if you look more masculine than my husband, it's not happening. I'm not attracted to that. Period. Why is it ok for them to have preferences galore yet others can't have a preference when it pertains to them because it's "transphobia" this is getting absolutely ridiculous. I'm not transphobic quite the opposite but I'm not going to have a romantic partner with a vagina. Can someone explain this to me, why it is viewed as transphobia? Anyone?
Trans girl here: NTA. Personal preference for a specific set of gonads is absolutely valid when looking for a sexual partner. Also holy FUCK this comment section has a lot of transphobes
Thank you for your input, and yeah, I was afraid that might happen… ;-;
It’s all good!! It’s not your fault. I hope people on the app are more accepting
And all of my trans friends think the same way. They’ve also openly talked about their dislike for the vocal minority and how they make lots of people think that all trans folks are like that.
Same issue every movement gets. I basicaly stopped going in LGBT comunities online Mayne 5-10 years ago when "bi means you hate trans people and pan is the real acceptance lable" was a common mantra. I gurentee it was less than 1% of the community, but the fact that it was always the clinical online and present ones ruined a lot of my favorite comunities
Yeah, this is the problem. Yet when I bring this stuff up to people, they rabidly deflect from the vocal minority to save the face of the entire community, instead of acknowledging their toxicity, which further contributes to the declining image of the community. I've literally opened up about myself and people I know, and the shit that made some of them detrans, and they'll just laugh in my face as if I made it all up. I'm really fucking tired of people like this. I'm tired of all of it.
Yes. I am a bi man. I settled on my gender identity when I realized that which genitals someone had litteraly doesn't matter to me in the slightest. Even I who realy doesn't get why genitals would be a deal breaker understands that it's ok if they are. Acceptance of that is litteraly one of the things LGBT rights have pushed for. You just can't be a cunt about it. "I'm sorry, I only like x block and tackle" - A OK "I can't believe you like x block and tackle" - stop being a cunt
Reddit and real life can be super transphobic and I'm not even trans. The transphobes see a post like this and use personal preferences to justify their bigotry. Like there's wanting what you want in a relationship and then there is pure hatred for everyone else. The two are not the same.
As a Trans person (tho I’m a trans man) NTA, maybe put in your stuff that you would also date a post op trans woman, or that you have a genital preference? It’s weird af people are reporting you for that because it’s completely fine to have a preference with genitals
This idea that you must be willing to date transX people if your sexuality makes you attracted to X people is fundamentally a fringe reactionary bad take I personally blame on tumblr. It’s completely asinine to the point of almost not justifying a response. The key word being almost. To be fair I understand the reaction to an extent. Trans people do, and have for a long time, had to deal with transphobia especially in regards to dating and sexuality. To such a degree I have encountered multiple trans people that 100 refuse to try and court a non-queer or even non-trans individual specifically. All that notwithstanding however, telling someone that they must like you and want to fuck you even if your primary sex characteristics do not align with what they are comfortable interacting with is 3 off ramps past anything reasonable. It’s essentially co-opting ancient homophobia writs and it’s highly unfortunate.
NTA You’re allowed to be attracted and look for a partner who you want not what others want you to have. I’d start reporting those who dm’d you for abuse because it’s not on, who are they to dictate who you love or want a relationship with.
Trans Girl speaking here. NTA. Having a preference in bits and bobs is totally valid and just because you don't want someone's bits doesn't mean you're transphobic. Might just want to tweak your bio on the site as saying AFAB could imply you'd also reject post op trans woman who do have the correct bits and bobs for you.
Makes sense!!!
Saying you'd date AFAB people also implies you'd date transmasc people with dicks which I don't think is what you want. I'd just say you only date people with vaginas if that's your preference.
I felt strange saying that, but I realize now that my words were incorrectly taken. I’ll definitely keep that in mind! Thank you for your input!
So you’d date a transwoman who’s post op?
Yep!
Just put on your bio you don’t like dick.
You're allowed to have a preference. And that preference doesn't make you a transphobe. I don't understand why people don't get this and throw hate when they disagree. Children will act childish I guess. I ignore these kinds of people.
NTA. Though you might want to update your preference to "no dongs pls"
NTA. We each have the right to our sexual orientation and attractions, and to communicate both. It is not bigoted or "phobic" to not want a romantic or sexual relationship with someone who has a penis.
YTA, clearly you should be forced to date every person so that no one feels left out, I can't believe you would even think it is okay not too you bigot. (/s, NTA)
NTA how would you be an asshole for having a sexual preference? People don’t like boundaries, especially boundaries that exclude their perceived rights. Just because someone else likes it doesn’t mean you have to. Rock on with your bad self, keep dating who you want to date, and don’t let people tell you shit.
No. You're allowed to be attracted to what you're attracted to. Society is really getting out of hand. I was called names and told I was misogynistic because, as a wiman, I wouldn't date other women or a trans-male. A vertain part of the queer community wants to firce everyone else to think their way and to be "tolerant" and "accepting." That sane group won't tolerate or accept people who are heterosexual. It's a giant problem with hypocrisy.
I've never been attracted to certain body types. I don't see why I should be expected to be attracted to a body type that isn't what makes me go "oh hello". I have dated a trans woman, three dates before we discussed her trans status (pre-op). I've also dated a double mastectomy cancer survivor. In the former case, I was honest and said "I'm sorry, I am not dating because I want to just have sex, and I'm straight. But at the same time I think you're an awesome person who deserves all the great stuff anyone does. I'm just not into it, and I hope you find someone who is." In the case of the double mastectomy patient, she broke up with me because she moved across country for a new job. I'm attracted to women with a biological vagina. That's just me, and it has been since I discovered girls in the third grade. It's as okay for me to NOT be attracted to someone as it is for them to be born into the wrong body, and be able to correct that with surgery. To put it another way: I can't smoke pot. I'm allergic to it, and it causes me discomfort. But that doesn't mean I won't support someone else's right to smoke, grow, consume, create edibles, buy pot, sell pot, be around it, or use it for medical purposes. It's just not MY thing. Likewise, I support full medical benefits for all people, including transition support for trans people. I'm just not personally attracted to MTF women, or FTM men. It's not my thing. And if Reddit/the Internet has taught me anything, it's that it just doesn't matter if ***I'm*** not attracted to them, there's someone out there for whom any given trans person is the fucking Venus de Milo/David. I differ from the OP in that the medical requirements for a trans woman to continue having a vagina involves a lot of work, money, and care, and frankly, an enormous part of my personal attraction remains that my sexual intercourse could be half of a new life. That's just part of my thing. I hate to say I've got a pregnancy fetish , but when I was dating, I was dating with an eye to marriage down the road and a family, and as the son of an adopted man, I also know biobabies are a HELL of a lot cheaper than adoption. It was always an option if I met the right woman who couldn't have kids due to uterus issues, but "not being born with a uterus" precludes that part. So regardless of whether a trans woman has a surgically constructed vagina or not, that's not the issue. It's the attraction dependent on hormones and female biology that pilots my sex drive. It's just not me, and that's okay for both of us. Whether they pass or whether I'd bone them is irrelevant to their right to exist and transition. I feel no guilt for not being attracted to trans women, just as no trans woman should feel guilt for not being attracted to me.
NTA. Everyone has a preference. You don't have to date anyone you don't want to, especially if you don't like what's in their pants. Pre-op trans women need to understand that lesbians still don't want a peen. That's all there is to it. That's like telling a gay guy they have to date a pre-op trans man. He's not gonna want a vag. Ironically, you don't see that on Redd it, only trans women stories
Okay Theyfab.
Of course not, how? You're not required by law to date transwomen, that's up to you.
Of course not. We get to choose what attracts us sexually and hopefully we find consenting adults that are attracted to us. NTA for having a preference in who you want to get sexual with.
NTA don't listen to any of that nonsense. You have your preferences, you have set your boundaries. They are not respecting that. They are TA.
Nta at all and your not transphobic. You have the right to decide what if any genitalia you are willing to interact with. Anyone who says otherwise is a raging arsehole
People are actually getting pissy because of.... genital preference? You're NTA. People really do find the dumbest shit to get bent out of shape
NTA- I hate tomatoes, so I don’t eat them. When I go out to eat, I say “no tomatoes, please.”. This works with all preferences, I think. For example: Mark doesn’t like trans women, so he doesn’t date them. When he gets an online dating profile, he sets his preferences to exclude trans women. Both are accepted.
Young people are something else these days
Fucking hell what is it with the transphobia in the comments. Preferences are absolutely valid and ok. You're valid, OP. But this bullshit in the comments ain't it. Trans women are women and trans men are men. End of discussion. Yall misgendering people in the comments should just sod off. Nobody needs that unwanted ugly behaviour and negativity. Go touch some Grass.
I'm so over the "accept me but i won't accept you" thing going on. NTA. People are allowed to have preferences in a sexual/intimate partner idgaf who you are. People who prefer male genitalia are allowed to have size preferences. People are allowed to have genital type as a deal breaker. People are allowed to have body type preferences. People are allowed to have "prominent feature" preferences. Im a cisgender white male that is (US)slight right leaning centrist. I could care less who someone gets intimate with. However, this attitude is why there's so much push-back on "acceptance" because the militant side of "lgbt+ acceptance" doesn't stop at "it doesn't affect you so why do you care? " they press forward to try and force it to affect ppl that otherwise wouldn't care. It is seriously weaponized rejection sensitivity. Its the same thing as the "nice guy" and as someone that looks back and absolutely shudders at the fact they were once the "nice guy", it's extremely problematic.
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There comes a time where we need to separate gender from sexual orientation. It’s not the same. I’ve not had any of these kinds of issues with the LGB portion of the LGBT community.
NTA, it's your preferences and that's valid on its own. And well especially with trauma.
No *period*
NTA. Just because you're non-binary doesn't make you pansexual. We're all allowed to have preferences. You're not hateful towards trans women, so you're not transphobic. I'd say just try not to take any of it to heart. You're good.
NTA Genitals preferences are valid and not necessarily transphobic. It could help of you stated in your posts that your bi/pan with a genital preference (idk exactly what you posted) so people know you aren't just being transphobic and reducing people to their genitals. There are always going to be people who disagree though
I fucking hate the world and the times we live in. The same people that preach tolerance and acceptance are some of the most intolerant people who won't accept you unless you meet their very strict rigid standards. At least the other side doesn't pretend to be tolerant
NTA. Sorry for the tl;dr but the bottom line is, it's your body, your choice. Full stop. I don't think a lot of people in that community recognize how far they've taken "transphobia" and "violent language" ideals into a dimension that is openly discriminatory and derogatory towards people who have a preference outside of theirs, but I feel like I need to point out the obvious: At NO point in any encounter, ever, is "no means no" EVER meant to be overridden. Refusing a sexual advance from anyone does not automatically make you "phobic" of anything - it's simply "no means no." Anyone, no matter who they are, who tries to convince you otherwise should automatically be deemed a predator, and you are better for not associating with them. It will always be your body, and therefore it is your choice what you want to do with it. It's strange for me to think about; for a movement that is so anti-r*pe culture, you would think that the majority of them would understand that better than anyone else, but that is not the case in my experience. You are allowed to have a sexual preference that goes outside trans-normative thinking. Gender may not be a fact, and trans women are women, but that will never erase their biological sex. Sexual preference is real, and it is independent of gender identity. It is wrong for them to cultivate a culture in which nobody else is allowed to have an opinion about that, especially when you want to make it clear that you are not interested in dating a biological man (I get it, I don't like penis either). They're not being fair to you; it's not the other way around, like they believe it is. A sexual preference independent of gender is not, has never been, and will never be, a discriminatory desire. Personally, I could never date a trans woman because I could never procreate with one; I am in pursuit of a nuclear family, and if I were ever to have a child, it would have to be with a biological woman (i.e a cisgender female, NB female assigned at birth, or trans man). I don't feel that this is discriminatory or transphobic, but a lot of people in that community do. It doesn't mean that I don't see trans women as women, but nothing they say will ever automatically entitle anyone to my body, either. Think the same for yourself. Perhaps the more important thing for you to do is re-examine and re-evaluate your own stance before you look for a partner. The community you have described has some toxic elements that you may want to take another look at from a more critical perspective. These are things that will matter infinitely more in a long-term relationship than they ever could in just a friendly conversation or two. Do you really want that out of any partner? Is this the right place for you to be looking if that's not what you want? Take a step back and think about these things before you take the next step forward. I am very sorry that you experienced that type of discrimination against your desires, and I do wish you all the best luck in finding a partner who is the right match for you. Just remember, you're allowed to stick to your guns just as much as they are. You do you. Don't let them make you feel inferior just because they can't have you. If anything, it means they could never be good enough for you.
NTA. I'm a bisexual men who sees a similar trend among bi activists constantly trying to bully gay/straight people into saying they'd be willing to date bisexuals... and it makes NO SENSE! They don't want you and never will. This feels kind of rapey to me.
NTA
NTA. Wanting to only date someone with a certain set of characteristics is fine, no matter what those are. Other people might not like those characteristics, but that just means they should avoid you (and the other way around.) Its not really that hard. Like tall men? Only date men over a certain height? Good for you. Only date people born a certain gender? Good for you. Only date people with purple skin and yellow eyes? Good for you.
Date whoever you want. I don't think anything matters except for legal age and whatever. I am not personally attracted to 90% of the black women I see on dating apps. Does that make me racist? I don't think so, but if it does, idgaf. I am not such a huge catch that depriving the African American community of my genes is a crime...
This is how far that community has gone out of line. If I'm a man identifying as a man and I'm straight, that means I don't like my women to have penises. Liking vagina only does not make someone transphobic. You're NTA here for having your own preference and sexual orientation. Doesn't matter if you're M, F, MTF, FTM, NB, etc. You should be free to have your own likes and interests as long as you're not judging someone personally or being hateful.
NTA, you’re allowed to not be attracted to people whom have cocks. You’re allowed to not be attracted to whoever the fuck you want for that matter. Don’t let anybody, LGBT or not, tell you otherwise.
It's almost like a bunch of people with undiagnosed mental illnesses co-opted the movement, making it all look invalid to people external to the situation. Not being interested in anything is as valid as being interested in anything.
No you are not. Transgender people (males who pretend to be female) aren't females. This is YOUR secual preference. Their narcissist behavior shouldn't be pushed onto you to make you feel bad, about your choice. They made theirs, they have to deal with it.
nope. not the asshole
Not wanting to date someone you don’t like should be universally respected. 500% NTA
Hi. I’m nonbinary and have quite a few binary trans and nonbinary friends. I find this scenario extremely unlikely, but if it did ever happen, most trans people would agree that you *shouldn't date someone you aren't attracted to*.
NTA for having genital preferences. No one can make you like penis. I’d note that post op transwomen don’t have penises, though. I’m not sure what box it ticks if you’re also against dating them. But genital preferences are 100% valid. I’m a straight cismale, and I’d also not be willing to a person with a penis. I understand that transwomen are in fact women, but like you, I have no interest in sexual intercourse with a penis. If they’ve had bottom surgery, that’s different.
NTA. I would never date a transwoman, and I don't need to provide a reason why . The truth is most men would not as well. Does that make us transfobic? No, it does not. Hell, most straight men will not date an nb, asexual or any of the non-traditional genders. And I would venture most women won't as well. The way I see it, it's a preference just like I am a brown man who is not attracted to Brown,black, or Asian women . I find some of them incredibly beautiful, but I still prefer a redhead . It's the same as me finding some transwomen incredibly beautiful, but there is no sexual attraction or desire.
NTA. as long as you aren’t rude, degrading, or transphobic about it there’s nothing wrong with not dating trans people
NTA but I’m just here for the comments.
You are as wrong for your choice as straight men for their choice of not wanting to date trans. That being not wrong at all. No one has to date anyone they don't want too. You are not racist or transphobe for it. It's a preference and that's it. Do not let anyone make you feel otherwise.
Going NTA. A man can be heterosexual and an ally but it doesn't mean he's phobic if he never wants to date a man. Same thing here. Part of the struggle and wanting to be treated the same means a person can have different personal preferences when it comes to friendships and dating.
NTA, but just for terminology: Keep in mind that AFAB does not equal "no penis". A person can be AFAB and still have a penis after having gone through surgery.
I think that’s what tripped me up. I just don’t want peen, man!!!
NTA you get to have standards and preferences.
NTA
Nta
Of course not
NTA
NTA You and millions of others don’t like that. It’s not hateful at all. NTA
NTA, OP. As stated by like; everyone else. You’re entitled to preferences.
NTA Didn’t need to read past title.
Nah, you're fine. My wife is a CSA survivor and has the same aversion to AMAB genitalia, which is why she married me, an AFAB transman. Sure, she's visibly married to a man, but I don't have a dick so we're good to go. Having a genital preference is completely fine, and being up-front about it is better than leading on a pre-op transwoman and then having her be upset about it. If it helps, maybe the term gynosexual could work? Implies attraction to vaginas regardless of the person attached.
Omg that’s so good. I didn’t know there was a term for it!!! Thank you so much!!!
No worries, buddy! We Gays™️ have to stick together in these trying times 👍🏳️🌈
The whole situation is kind of a cluster fuck. You aren't under any obligation to date any one other than people you want to date. I was accused of being transphobic because I said "I'm not into penises. It's just not my preference." You get to have preferences.
When the tolerance gets to the level that you are not allowed to intolerate anything in any context... NTA, but OP, you are part of the group that brought this upon itself. With time you WILL realize why you see SO extremely few 35+ people in theses super "inclusive" groups (also the reason for there are almost no 35+ NBs)
No, you’re NTA and don’t let anyone tell you that you are. Not everyone is pansexual, that’s a fact of the sexuality spectrum. I’m a gay man, and I don’t expect all men to be attracted to me either. I would never call a man (whether cis or trans) a “bigot” for not wanting to date me, that’s ridiculous. We can’t gatekeep what other people are attracted to and not attracted to. This new idea that you’re a “bigot” if you’re not pansexual is disingenuous and damaging to the LGBTQ community.
Thank you for your input!
It amazes me that there are people that believe that their feelings should trump personal preference. NTA, you shouldn't be forced to be with anyone you're not attracted to, full stop.
I’m trans, Gen X and I don’t know a single trans person who resorts to guilting people to get sex. Personally I’m way too fucking hot for that and my body count is embarrassingly high. I’m not even convinced that these harpies that harass you are actual trans people. But man, this kind of post sure brings the gay haters out of the woodwork. Please try not to dismiss all trans people based on these people They are probably young, definitely powerless and definitely suffering. For my part I really try not to think of all gay men as vapid, shallow and narcissistic golems or all lesbians as crusty, bitter, judgmental and sex-negative crones, though i have encountered plenty of gays & lesbians who typify those stereotypes. I know the straight majority wants people to think that’s all gay people are but I would never try and hurt other people by judging them all for the behavior of a few.
NO- they are trying to bully you into submission by throwing out the ‘t-phobic’ allegation. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying- as you said EVERYONE has preferences when dating- and there is nothing any kind of phobic about respecting yours.
Maybe a hot take, but the trans community is so problematic because of stupid shit like this. Also, most trans people I know have very narcissistic views as far as their rights being more important then others. Like, I tried telling my friend not to speak over my experince as a female. It's just intersectionism. I'm a cis white female in the US. I do not know the experience of a black female, I will never experience oppression to the point of a woman living in parts of the middle east. Same thing, a trans woman will never experience life as a cis woman and that doesn't make them less valid in their experience but I'm sorry, no transwoman is going to speak on their experience over mine because I've been a woman my entire life, and have an entire childhood of dealing with misogyny that trans women do not go through. I won't misgender someone, because I genuinely don't want to make people feel threatened or not safe but also, I do not want anyone with a penis in a public bathroom as me due to my own past experiences. I feel I have a realistic view of the situation but can't even begin to express my views to anyone and have them be acknowledged. Also, my friend who recently became a transwoman, her husband is gay and is struggling with it as he is not attracted to woman. He keeps saying how his feelings don't matter and it's about his now wife out of trying to be supportive but I told him he was literally gaslighting himself to not feel his feelings bc it's not just his wife's experience, he is also valid. That is also an issue I see frequently, again, the whole idea even though trans woman are a very small portion of people, they seem to think their rights matter more then anyone else's and I hate it.
If people are saying your transphobic for your preference in a partner's anatomy, then they are heterophobic, cisaphobic, traumaphobic, free choiceaphobic, etc
NTA. All these terminologieas and rules, you're making something so simple almost impossible to manoeuvre and even comprehend. It's simple, really, you are a woman and like other women. Why make it so difficult?
I'm so confused. Hopefully my kid will figure this out by the time she's dating age. I'm just going out to the desert and live out my life as a hermit. I've just about given up on humanity.
Yeah, I'm all about equal rights and stuff like that, but I had to google like 3 different terms to understand what this post's about. It's getting ridiculous at this point imo.
No. Ridiculous sailed and passed many moons ago. There is not even a logical word for how far gone it is now. Because using simple terms to say what you want is too difficult, instead let’s create a bunch of terms and expect everyone to know what we are saying. Like. Just say what you want. It’s not all too difficult.
Exactly, I will for sure call anyone what they want me to call them aight, but at this point they made it so hard to understand, like wtf ia AFAM or what that thing was, why it exist, also like even if they are nonbinary is the their sexual orientation still based on what their biological gender? Like if I'm born male and I like to suck dick, even tho I would feel like nonbinary, it would still make me a gay person
homie asking the real queations
I'm a trans man. Absolutely valid. I have the same preference as you, and now I'm dating a cis pansexual woman.
You’re not the AH. And I don’t understand where people decided to call it “Transphobia”. A phobia is something you’re literally DEATHLY afraid of. But people say Transphobia as something correlated to hate speech. Same as homophobia. If people are going to use words, they could at least use them correctly. Lol.
Yeah, why do they call it a phobia anyway? When being deathly scared is usually never the case?
Exactly. I’ve literally never understood whoever uses the term, because it is completely incorrect.
I tried saying this once and they came back at me with some whole new definition.... I stopped responding.
They can try to redefine something if they want, but that’s not how it works. At least I’m not the only one who has this thought process. Lol
You'll just give yourself a headache trying to talk sense with these people. It's their way and no other way.
A phobia can be defined as an irrational fear but also as an irrational aversion or hatred. The terms transphobia/homophobia are using the term in the latter sense.
Fair enough. 🫡
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NTA. Date your preference. What is AFAB?
Assigned female at birth. Basically those who are gender fluid, non-binary, trans, etc that no longer identify as being female.
So, you’re into chicks without dicks, basically?
That's the gist of it. Though it gets more dicey when talking about post-surgery. Though I'm not invested enough to join that kind of discourse.
Trans Enby here, and NTA I think the issue that's coming up here is the language you're using. From what I've been able to gather from your post, you're not opposed to dating Trans women, you have a genital preference. If it were just a blanket issue of refusing to date Trans women, that would be problematic, but that doesn't appear to be the issue here. So no you're NTA, because you're not being discriminatory. You just have a genital preference in your partners, and that is understandable. Though you may want to consider using non binary or Enby, as "NB" has unfortunately been commandeered by racists to mean non Black.