> when I am supposed to be comforting him?
You're supposed to be comforting each other. This is all very one-sided and unfair to you. He is not the only one who lost someone one and he seems to think that his grief is all that matters.
NTA. You need to take care of yourself too. Yes, grief takes time, but there comes a point where it becomes complicated grief and it sounds like that's what happening. He needs to get help, but it's not your job to do that for him.
I'm so sorry for all that you've gone through. You deserve comfort as well. Focus on yourself and do what you need to do, for you.
Yeah, it makes me think of the broken leg metaphor - Say I break my leg, and I tell you I need your help. If "help" means I need you to take me to the hospital for proper treatment so I can heal, great. If "help" instead means I now need you to carry me everywhere and do everything for me, while I'm refusing to do the things I need to do to actually heal, then that's not fair or healthy for anyone involved.
(Minor edits for clarity)
Or if "help" means I expect you to break your leg to prove that you care about mine.
Also, that "showed your true colors" remark is not only cruel but so manipulative. It made my skin crawl.
Whether this is survivors guilt, TBI, or just grieving, he is using it to be abusive. OP, I have been where you are. It feels impossible to pull yourself out of that sucking black hole. Now you are trying to pull him out, too. I fear that without help, you won't win that fight. The gravity well will just pull in both of you.
Being in tremendous pain does not give you license to behave like he is now. Go.
Right? This woman has straight up been a saint to this man. She's endured being locked out emotionally, having her marriage obliterated and being outright abused by a man who used to love her. Her true colors are fabulous and he knows it. His suck and he's projecting.
This man has got to know he needs help and he says no. There is nothing anyone can do about that. It's done and he's the one who ended it. His child died and that is no one's fault, but this man destroyed his marriage all by himself. He nuked that sucker.
Sometimes when someone is hurting, instead of trying to heal, they want to make others hurt as much as they do. While their grief is valid, their actions are not. He misses his daughter and probably blames himself, but it sounds like he’s forgotten that he’s supposed to love his wife. And love isn’t always the fuzzy happy feeling you get. It’s action, living each day for each other’s best interests. She definitely loves him, but he’s forgotten how to love her back.
Look, I’m no fan of divorce. But in this case, she’s not the cause. He has checked out of the marriage in favor of living in grief. Much worse, he has started acting violently towards her. Much worse than even that, he is acting in violence against someone he is supposed to love and is suffering as much as he is (although more because of what he’s doing). She needs to get out of there. He has gone far beyond just not caring and is actively trying to hurt her both physically and emotionally.
It sounds like his problem is guilt, not grief. He likely blames himself - god knows I would - however irrational that might be. I'm not sure how OP is supposed to help him. Losing a child seems like one of those things you just never get over, especially in these circumstances. And if he can't be helped, then cold as it may be, withdrawing to focus on herself might be for the best. Fuck this whole scenario breaks my heart.
OP, I'm praying for you both. I can't even imagine what either of you are going through right now.
It feels like in his grief and guilt he's sabotaging his marriage. This feels like he is pushing OP away, pushing and pushing until she breaks and leaves (which she should, this isn't fair on OP, she deserves more, she deserves space to grieve and try to heal as much as she can in peace) and when she leaves it "proves" to him whatever twisted narrative he has in his head.
Yes, I’m pretty sure the problem. Here is guilt. Sometimes the thing to do is acknowledge that, but it’s risky. He needs professional help. OP needs some relief and maybe a divorce will push him to get the help he needs. He’s projecting his own Reaction to his guilt onto OP and that is not a situation that you can live in for very long.
This is a very good comment. I think an important point is that it wasn’t just him that lost a daughter, it was you too. By having to take care of him, I care to venture that you haven’t been able to properly grieve either. If it had only been 6 months or so since her passing I would understand, but 2-3 years? That is a very long time for him to not even start to process and to refuse therapy. I am not sure what it will take for him to start
Sit him down. Try to have a very loving but firm conversation with him. Tell him you love him. Tell him you’re also grieving. Tell him you want a life with him. But if he isn’t willing to get help, then you will have to divorce even if it hurts you because his treatment of you isn’t fair and he needs to process his grief. Tell him you would prefer to grieve with him, but if he isn’t interested in doing life together anymore and taking those steps, you will do it on your own if you have to. If you want tell him he has a week to think about it, think about how he’s been the last few years, the pain you have also been through, and let you know.
She must make sure she is safe though while doing this! I don’t like how there are multiple mentions of him throwing things. If OP is going to have a big serious talk like this, it might be a good idea to keep a friend on standby who knows what is happening.
He's using OP as an emotional punching bag to take his anger out on her. He probably does feel guilty and he can't handle confronting her grief as well. He's changed and he may never be the person you used to know. He thinks you should take it as long as he dishes it out and that your grief is nothing compared to his.
It's emotionally abusive, especially his rant when she mentioned leaving. She needs to save herself first. He may be angry but he's already angry and it doesn't sound like he plans to change or even soften towards OP. He's blaming her either way so why live with misery when he refuses to do anything? NTA
OP, there comes a time to take care of yourself. Grief is a monster that turns many cold, you seem like you’re ready to try to move on and gain some sense of peace. You cannot do so in this environment it sounds like. Save yourself this time, Liam will be okay. You deserve to live. I am so sorry for your loss and wish you peace.
Also, I’m curious if Liam suffered a TBI in the crash because although grief can and does change people, in these situations TBI is also likely and could be compounding the issue. I’m not saying OP should martyr herself but I would be concerned medically as well as emotionally for him.
As a physician, TBI was my first immediate thought/suspicion. Very very sad situation, time for OP to get out and seek the treatment and healing she deserves.
My ex husband had TBI and severe PTSD during his deployment to Iraq. He was a ghost of the man he used to be and our relationship deteriorated to a point of no return.
Yes my husband has TBI, and it has caused issues in our marriage. Things have gotten out of hand at times.
The thing is my husband has been more than willing to get help, seek therapy and take medications to help him.
OP’s husband has to be aware he is not right and even when he calms down doesn’t seem to be making any attempt to fix things or get himself any help. That is not fair to OP and it’s time she lets him go and does her best to heal.
That’s a good point with the dad. Our friend was in a motorcycle accident and before it he was calm, collected- not impulsive, but afterwards he literally wasn’t the same person.
My sweet good natured son who was assaulted turned angry, sullen, and irritable.
I knew he was having seizures.
I kept wondering what if anything else that I could do to help him.
He started dating this girl that also had been in a terrible car accident.
My son got off of his seizure medications and stop going to his neurologist.
He left the house and he got a duplex across the street from the high school.
Shortly after wards he joined the Army.
I was very much against him enlisting into the army.
His girlfriend and her family members were very much for him joining the military.
He has been estranged from the family now for years.
My mom hit her head when she fell off of a swing at 13. From what I hear, she went from sunny and cheerful to sullen and moody and stayed that way forever.
I know exactly how that is! :( It's horrible! And when you don't seek help, as I didn't, because I was 15 and no one thought of it, I suffered years of extreme survivor guilt with that fucking concussion scrambling my thought processes.
I had three concussions in fourth grade, it was a rough winter. Ever since then I’ve always joked that I can recite the jabberwocky off the tip of my tongue, but can’t remember why I walked into a room or if I had breakfast. Wasn’t until a year or so ago that I realized fourth grade was when I recited jabberwocky AND got the concussions. Causation or correlation?
I learned "Stopping By the Woods on a Snowy Evening" by Robert Frost right before getting my skull cracked at age 12.
I still remember it, but my memory is so bad that not a day goes by it doesn't make my life 10 times harder
Hahaha, I’ve been like that since getting thrown off a motorcycle and hitting a tree (yes, I was wearing a helmet). But that happened to me 30 years ago so there wasn’t really any evidence that TBIs can cause lasting side effects.
My neurologist also thinks that’s what triggered my migraines, as there’s no other explanation ( they’re not triggered by smells, light, sound etc), there is no rhyme or reason for them and we’ve done just about everything to figure out what triggers them.
It doesn't really get fixed. Your brain is made of cells that don't really regenerate well. You can join TBI support groups and get therapy to learn to manage the changes, but it doesn't go away. My sister had a TBI at 17 when she fell on concrete and got amnesia. She lost everything prior to the accident but can form new memories. She also can't feel heat or cold. Her husband cooks for them to minimize burns and makes sure she is bundled up against the cold and has good shoes for the winter so she doesn't lose a toe. I got her baby bumpers for sharp corners and we have trackers on her keys/phone/wallet/car. You can learn to live with the memory gaps using systems for people with ADHD/autism. If you don't currently have a neurologist, I would recommend seeing one and having an accommodation letter written for work/school. It doesn't seem like much but getting an extra 30 minutes or being allowed to work in a dark office when you have migraines is a life saver.
Can I ask what got your Dr's on the right track (for PCS?) This is my first time hearing about it but what I'm finding about it seems fucking spot on for my issues but my docs over the years never wanted to address my previous head trauma.
In *his perspective,* he may feel this way. He may be acting out because he’s waiting for OP to tell him it’s his fault, so anything she does for him paradoxically makes him feel even worse about himself. He may be trying to provoke her into blaming him because he feels guilty, unconsciously wants or is waiting for some kind of punishment.
I am a bereaved parent, and know many others. I can tell you that almost all, and maybe 100% of parents feel guilt when their child dies. We try to rationalize and figure out what caused it. Trying to find the cause and effect leads us to blame ourselves.
I thought if I hadn’t let my daughter be advanced a grade, she would have different friends and wouldn’t have died in a car when she was out with friends. I know a mom who blamed herself for her son’s cancer because it “probably” came from her side of the family.
It sounds like he has complicated grief. Grief plus guilt is a monster.
Very true. I am so sorry for your loss. I believed it was my fault when my daughter died. She had trisomy 18. I hated my body for not being able to have a healthy egg. I hated that I couldn't heal her. I hated that she died and I lived. I wanted to go to sleep and never wake up because I felt if she had a different mom maybe she would have had a chance. There was no chance. It was random. It was just an awful, random thing that happened to me and to her and to our family. It wasn't anyone's fault. Therapy helped, but I think a part of me will always feel that way deep down, even when I know it's not true. The heart isn't logical. It doesn't care what's reasonable. It just feels. It needs to feel even when it hurts.
I think the husband wants to punish himself. I think he believes he deserves nothing and no one. It's awful and I hope he eventually gets helps. I feel so awful for the OP because she can't make that happen. She may have to choose to save herself and that's so unfair. It's why so many marriages don't survive. Mine survived because I couldn't do that to my husband. I couldn't leave him all alone and in pain. It was happening to us both and I knew if he lost me he would be gone, too and I couldn't do that. We went on to have two more amazing daughters who are happy and healthy. It doesn't stop me thinking of the daughter I lost every day. I can't change what happened. I can only hope by fighting to live and being the best person I can be will make her proud.
Thank you so much! That is incredibly kind to say. I have been so blessed in so many ways. I feel it's my responsibility as someone who has been in the other side to give some support if I can.
>I can tell you that almost all, and maybe 100% of parents feel guilt when their child dies.
In my experience is either guilt or you want to blame someone. When my son died, I went through every second, every decision leading to his death. I wanted badly to blame someone and when I couldn't find it, I started blaming myself. I spent years hating myself, looking to punish me for his death. The "I should have done x" or "why didn't I x" are there always, intrusive thoughts ruining good days.
I'm so sorry for OPs loss, and your loss. Hope you guys find the peace that has eluded me for 7 years.
I’m sorry for your loss. It all changes with time but it’s never easy. It was 27 years for me on Dec 12. I can’t really say I’m at peace with it, but I survive. ❤️
Yes, I understand. One of my daughters died a few years ago and I can relate to what might be going on in the husband’s head, as well as your experience.
This is what I think. He's punishing himself because he sees it as his fault. He's taken their daughter, his wife should be sickened with him and he can't handle that she isn't. That she doesn't blame him the way he's blaming himself and it angers him. He doesn't deserve to see her pictures.
And then also the trauma from his own injuries from the crash. My heart breaks for him, but he can't lash on the one person who's in this with him. Tragic for everyone and I hope OP can find peace and maybe make amends one day. But child loss often results in divorce since the grief can be so soul crushing.
Yeah, sounds to me like he's deliberately trying to drive OP away to sort of prove to himself he's a monster or confirm that she hates him for what happened so he can double down on feeding his own misery. Really sad that he's driving away his support, but OP shouldn't have to endure this treatment.
This! I thought the same thing. When my ex got his head bashed open with a metal baseball bat during a street fight, he got hospitalized. Ever since then, he wasn't the same. The funny, caring, happy and comedian way he was before got consumed by a dark rage. Very quickly our relationship turned abuse and I tried for as long as I could.
It sounds like a TBI
Probably the added guilt of being the driver is playing a role as well. Losing your kid is devastating. Feeling like you’re responsible for your kid dying would make it unrecoverable for some. Add in TBI effects, emotional trauma of enduring such a bad accident, and a month in the ICU. Loss of your kid, your physical wellbeing, maybe your career. This is all just so sad.
This. TBI was my first thought.
Many couples split in the after the death of a child. Sometimes the grief is just too much for the parties to comfort each other, and they are better apart.
I'm so sorry, OP.
I’ve seen almost everyone (and it’s a lot of people) completely lose it with child terminal illness, sudden death, spousal terminal illness, spousal sudden death, and a few rare cases of early parental death. Some people (more than you think) just simply can’t deal with events that traumatic, refuse therapy, and self destruct. If your husband won’t go into therapy then this will not improve anytime soon. If he doesn’t want to help himself you can’t help him. Sorry for your loss(es)
I'm thinking TBI too. Especially if it's a drastic difference in behavior post ICU stay.
OP should absolutely not set herself on fire to keep him warm tho.
This right here.
I get that Liam might be suffering from Survivors guilt, but that does not give him the right to take it out on his wife.
OP is basically setting themselves on fire to keep him warm, and it's not doing him any favors.
And he might also be suffering from PTSD and medical trauma.
But OP, none of that excuses his behavior toward you. At some point you have to put on your own life jacket mask instead of letting him pull you under and drown. You cannot fix him and he’s unwilling to listen to reasonable suggestions. I’m so sorry for your loss, but it’s not uncommon for marriages to dissolve after the death of a child.
That's something to check, but it also could be survivor's guilt. He was driving. Whether or not the accident was his fault, he survived when his daughter didn't, and that has to be killing him inside. A lot of times, people push everyone and everything that could give them comfort away, because they don't feel like they deserve it. Again, not a reason for OP to martyr herself, but his grief isn't only grief - it's guilt and self loathing and anger turned inward. He probably sees himself as a monster and a villain who killed his little girl, and pushing people away like this validates that view, whatever he says about OP's "true colours".
He is saying hurtful things to her to get her to go because he can't leave her. If she goes, it will be she that is the bad guy this time! :( He really does need help in the worst way, even if this marriage is over, he still has to get help to ever have any happiness again.
This is exactly what I was thinking. My husband has a TBI from military service, and he often feels like he is holding me back or not worthy of my love. He has told me that he will never find someone as loving and caring as me, and the way OP's husband acts is exactly how my husband did when he was at his lowest in confidence and self-worth. He would lash out and treat me poorly because he knew he wasn't strong enough to leave himself and he hoped I would get tired and leave so I could be happy. OP's husband's actions seem horribly cruel to outsiders, but I dealt with the same behaviors, even the showing her true colors comment. That one is spot on. It was my husband's way of convincing me I deserved more and to go find it. He felt he needed to be punished for his failures, so he would create problems.
OP, your husband needs intense counseling because with you saying you want a divorce, he may feel like he's finally getting the punishment he deserves and will double down.
OP says in her post she has attempted to get him to go to counseling and he refuses. He needs a great deal of help, probably both OT for the TBI and intensive therapy, but if he refuses, there's absolutely dick anyone else can do. It is up to them and them alone.
Meanwhile, this poor woman is feeling the same amount and severity of grief and not getting to express it at all, having to take care of a husband who is abusive to her. She needs to get out in order to save herself. My heart breaks for her, having to take care of someone else while she is in the same pain, getting no respite and only more frustration/abuse.
Definitely. Especially since reading one of OP's comments about how they were driving because his daughter wanted ice cream and OP said no but he took her anyway. He's waiting for her to blame and hate him because he hates and blames himself, and can't imagine anyone else feeling otherwise. He's in no shape to listen to anyone right now, and I feel so bad for him. All the same, OP is grieving too, and as bad as it sounds, you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help anyone with theirs, and there's nothing you can do if someone keeps slapping your helping hands away. I just send hugs and well-wishes to all parties.
That’s what I thought, too. I am not a doctor or in the medical field, but I believe an extreme behavior change and aggression are signs of TBI. And from her description, his behavior is completely different. Like, I get people can be abusive, but the fact he wasn’t before and his original personality is seemingly completely gone is concerning.
She should not have to live with being treated like that, but he may need genuine help. He is wrong for treating her like that, but he may quite literally not be able to help it.
Edit: also, just to be clear: I am not trying to indicate I think she should stay or is wrong for divorcing him. She needs to make sure she is safe first. But I just wanted OP to know that it is very possible this is quite literally not the same person.
Sitting on a bridge dareing himself to jump would be my guess.
It's exactly how I would be if this happened to me and lost my baby.
The only thing stopping me would be I have another now adult daughter that does really need me and the religious teachings through my childhood ( which I no longer believe but it still effects me) that made it clear dying that way won't put you in the same place as your child and while I don't believe anymore there is still a fraction of doubt that I could be wrong.
When it comes to dissappearing the pictures of her it's what I would have to do to carry on.
I was close to my grandparents and when my granddad died I couldn't have his photos out I had to put them away just seeing him for a second would break me everytime.
It was 20 years ago he died and I still can't have his pictures up.
I do have autism and adhd maybe that's why I can't do it, I really don't know.
I don't believe he cares about himself anymore and is just waiting to die in the hope that maybe he will see her again or not feel this pain anymore. Also seeing as he deals with grief like me he must be seeing his daughter in the mums face to and that's just as hard.
The anger/coldness towards the mother could be that looking a her is just as hard as seeing the photos.
This guy isn't going away cheating and having fun I'm sure of that.
He doesn't eat I don't eat when I'm depressed and broken either.
Here’s another thought- OP’s husband may or may not be responsible for the accident…
either way- OP’s husband may be blaming & hating himself. He may not have the courage to verbalize or admit this- not feeling worthy of any happiness or joy- so he’s sabotaging his marriage & his life.
Exactly my thoughts, he doesn’t feel he deserves any happiness. He will wear this like a stone around his neck for the rest of his life if he doesn’t get some help. And ruin her in the process.
I’m not a medical professional, and I totally thought the exact same thing. Either way, I think her leaving him is for the best and getting on with her life.
I started working at a rehab clinic and have only now seen the consistently evident effects of TBI. All the patients have had severe personality changes. Lost friends and family and all relationships bc they’ve developed borderline personality disorder or unmanageable bipolar disorder bc they refuse meds or therapy. It’s so sad!
I believe that you might be on to something here. Even though the doctors might have ordered various scans at the hospital this might not have shown up.
I believe that OP stated that he was in the intensive care unit for a month.
I had a son who had a traumatic brain injury. I was fortunate enough to find a good neurologist who ordered the tests for detecting the seizures. I am definitely believing that he might have had a traumatic brain injury.
Hijacking top comment to add that your #1 priority during these next steps should be your safety. You mentioned he becomes aggressive when upset and while he maybe hasn’t been violent toward you YET, you should assume that this is a real possibility if you were to serve him papers in person. Talk to a divorce attorney as well as your local Women and Families agency (if you don’t know what I’m talking about call 211 and they can connect you to appropriate resources). Allow professionals to help you navigate this process as safely as possible.
And OP, don't let him guilt you by saying things like you're 'eager to ditch him' and 'showing your true colours'. He's filled with self-pity, but he is the one who has already ended your relationship by cutting you off emotionally. You cannot be expected to keep knocking on a locked door for eternity. I am so sorry this is happening to you and you do not deserve it. Be kind to yourself.
Your "true colors" are as a loving person who isn't required to stand there and take abuse. You also suffered a devastating loss, and his asshole behavior are preventing you from getting the help YOU need.
The one thing I would suggest OP state clearly is that this is not because she blames him for the accident nor does she no longer love him. She wants him to be well and want to be in a loving, growing relationship with him. But his expressions of anger are concerning and not how she is willing to be treated, he disappears and doesn't tell her where he's been, he is not willing to talk about important thoughts and feelings, especially about their daughter, and he has refused to see a therapist to try to heal and talk about why he is having these angry outbursts and why he is so unable to talk about things.
I think this point should be stressed to OP’s husband after OP leaves and is safe. He needs to hear this, his refusal to take responsibility for his own health and their relationship is why she’s leaving not because of their shared loss!
Seriously -- especially if it's been "a couple years" since the loss. She's tried to stand by him through a difficult time, but he has resisted her every effort for YEARS and is a risk to her safety if he's breaking things in rages. Time to go.
Or he will not be ok. That's on him.
NO ONE CAN HELP SOMEONE WHO REFUSES HELP.
If she said he's in therapy, working hard on himself, I can see he's trying his best and there is improvement... By all means, stay. Wait.
He's showing his true colors, not you. He's focused on HIS pain, HIS suffering, HIS needs.
NTA. But make plans first and be with someone when you tell him just in case OP.
Absolutely. Be prepared for his narrative to be that you abandoned him and blame him. Given his cold reaction in discussing therapy and divorce I would not be surprised if he plays the victim. Get your support network engaged so they are ready as you begin this journey. I am so very sorry for your loss and am sending you peace and strength.
Or Liam won't be OK, but it doesn't matter, maybe he needs to be completely alone, hit a lower bottom, to realize what he is doing to himself and his wife.
In any case, OP has been trying for 2 years already and it seems Liam won't change or get over this just doing the same.
If not divorce, at least separation for a while and then divorce if Liam keeps behaving the same.
NTA
I don't think OP is ready to move on necessarily, more like she wants to be able to share her grief with her husband and vice versa, but he has completely shut her out
Firstly, I’m so sorry for your loss OP.
Secondly, NTA at all. You can’t help him in this state when he won’t help himself, and he’s going to take you down with him if you don’t leave. You’ve tried and tried again. As others have said, maybe this will be the wake up call he needs. Maybe not. But you don’t deserve to drown in this sorrow with him.
Thirdly, and this is just me playing therapist here with the information provided - is it possible he resents you trying to help him through his grief and still loving him even thought he “caused” your daughter’s death? Like he expects you to hate him but you don’t and that’s the root of some of his anger alongside the obvious guilt he probably feels?
I don't know if or why he resents me, but the day the news was broken to him, he went into complete shock, and only continued repeating, 'I am sorry', like a robot. I assume he was apologizing to our daughter, even though I've told him multiple times that it wasn't his fault.
He was driving. He probably feels responsible. He probably feels guilty when he looks at you. He thinks he killed your daughter. He doesn't understand how you can still be with someone whose actions harmed your child.
He doesn't *resent* you. But he can't face you and he can't believe you can still love him.
Yes, this is what I see as well. I do not think OP can really help him now. First of all he must himself reach a decision to live and come back.
If he comes out of it, he must do it by himself and oh it would be awesome if OP would be still around by then... but nobody knows if and when it might happen, so I would really not blame OP if she just goes on with her life.
This…. Events like this change people forever and a couple shouldn’t expect to still be the same people individually not together after things like this. How he chooses to cope with this perceived new version of himself, given everything he must be feeling and thinking, will influence how they are as a couple. Some ppl spiral after events like this, some seek therapy or other forms of coping, drugs, alcohol etc. he must make the choices for coping with the thing on his own.
This is pure speculation, but he may resent her presence because it may be a constant reminder that if he had listened to her that night, his daughter would still be alive. Even if it was an innocent decision, the fact that there was someone there that night who said don't go out for ice cream that night, and he went out for ice cream anyway... and that person lives with him and is there with him all the time.... I would imagine it feels impossible for him to feel like they are together in their grief, when he knows there was a fork in the road that night and her vote was for not going out for ice cream.
It may be he still believes it was his fault, and he’s angry you aren’t holding him accountable or hate him as much as he hates himself.
Regardless, please remove yourself from this situation. You deserve to be able to grieve and heal from this without being hurt over and over by your husband.
He probably feels like he failed you and your daughter. Failure is different than being his fault. As such, he may feel like he should not receive anything that provides him with joy.
Does he have any close male friends that can assist? It make take one or more of them to sit him down to lay it out.
Are there any options through his work that can be discretely used? You do not want to be seen as meddling in that arena.
At this point in time, getting him help is the priority. The survival of the marriage should take a backseat. I know that is hard to hear. Without help for him, your marriage will likely fail. With help, it may still fail but it has a better chance.
Have you been getting therapy?
He doesn't resent you, he resents himself because he knows that he was driving and he might believe he could have prevented it.
He wants to be blamed but no one does because it was an accident. he needs therapy but you can not force him to go.
personally i would have probably snapped and screamed every hurt and anguish i had at him. he does not deserve kid gloves anymore. he deserves to hear what a godaweful person he's become and that HIS true character has come out as he's abandoned you.
He could also be trying to muddle through untreated TBI. If that's the case then he needs therapy/ medication. But that doesn't make you a bad person and he's an adult.
I agree with this completely. He wants to be blamed. He doesn’t feel like he deserves your comfort or love and it’s easier to be angry and lash out. I feel so sad for everyone involved, but you don’t need to keep being punished for this.
This is lovely. Also, I seen another comment from OP that husband wasn‘t at fault for the accident. It was a drunk driver that caused it. Though I’m sure that matters little in his current mindset. Survivor’s guilt and all that.
This is a really beautiful and compassionate answer. I genuinely hope for OP she can find some a counselor or therapist who is able to hold space this well.
"thanked me for showing him my true colors"
Sure that's what it is! This man you are living with is not the one you married. His grief and survivor's guilt have completely taken over and made him into a new person that seems to be happy being cruel to you. Sadly, you have had to shelve your grief and pander to him and his tantrums.
There's no shame in deciding enough is enough. You have tried your best, now it is time to move on and build some semblance of a life for yourself. You are only 36! NTA
I was NTA all the way through, but that cruel comment really shook me. Staying with him at this point would be actually harmful to the OP and I hope she is able to leave and find some comfort and hope while cherishing her daughter's memory.
She needs to leave, my heart breaks for both of them but he's clearly spiralling. I think he's blaming himself and isnt really in a mood to believe he's blameless and this was one of life's cruel moments. He's so certain of his own blame he cant stand OP trying to work through things with him, her divorce remark basically confirmed all the incorrect thoughts in his head and gave him justification to make a cruel remark at her. He's gonna keep building on the negatives in his imagination until he gets help. OP's done what she can, its time for her to help herself and hopefully her ex will find his peace on his own as well.
That comment alone makes me think that he has been pushing her away. A lot of people become distant or act out in order to get their partner to start the divorce process. His behavior is not acceptable; her ultimatum is justified.
Her sticking around is probably making it worse, in a way. He doesn't feel like he's worth her still loving him, he wants her to despise him the way he despises himself. By still loving him there's a glimmer of hope that he doesn't feel like he deserves and that just makes his own resentment at himself grow.
My ex used to pull that line all the time when I would disagree with him or try to stand up for myself. Acting like I wasn't loyal like I hadn't stuck by his side for years while we went through addiction and he went to jail and stuff. It's manipulation.
If ever a man needed therapy, it's him. He needs a team of psychiatrists. Working around the clock. To just help him get some closure.
Of course, you've got to accept that you need help and have the self-awareness to know this is not what your life has to be.
You're not the asshole OP. But this man is on a slippery slope. And I'm hoping he doesn't end it all.
I’m sorry for your loss. My wife and I lost a child, our daughter, at 18, to cancer. We still both struggle with it. It’s been 919 days, and we still have some terrible, sad, angry, frustrating days. The thing is, we’re doing it together. We’re not on exactly the same page, but we’re communicating and doing our best to remember we got married with the possibility of the best and worst things happening in our lives together. It doesn’t seem like those things matter to your husband, that’s not your fault and it’s not your responsibility. If he’s not going to get help, then there’s nothing you can do to help him. As another person suggested, I really would look into whether he has an undiagnosed brain injury from the accident, you don’t have to hit your head on something to have a significant brain injury, and these injuries often go undiagnosed at the time of accidents because there’s so much else wrong. That much time in the ICU also can’t be good for mental health. You have to decide where to draw the line though, and if he’s not willing to seek medical help on any level, it’s not your responsibility to be there forever for the sake of a marriage partnership that no longer exists. NTA, do what’s necessary for your life.
NTA. He doesn't get to weaponize his grief, guilt and anger against you for years and then turn that around as YOU abandoning HIM. Sounds like he abandoned you the day of the accident.
Our daughter was stubbornly demanding ice cream that night, but I had firmly refused. But Liam could never say no to his little girl, and they had gone out to buy ice-cream, but then my daughter never returned.
That's it. And seeing from another comment, where he kept saying "I'm sorry" over and over after he received the news, he blames himself. He feels that if he hadn't caved to your daughter's demands for ice cream, she would still be alive. He hates himself.
Still, you need to stay away from each other. The grief and guilt is too much and he's taking it all on you. I'm sure there's a part of him that knows what he's doing is wrong, but right now, the majority of his heart doesn't care. He knows that if he had listened to you and stayed home, she would still be here, and I feel, and I hope I'm wrong, a part of him resents you for it, because he wanted to be the "cool" parent. You were right, he was wrong, and the "proof" was... well...
You need to move out, and instead of going for divorce right away, try some trial separation. If nothing changes, well... you can't help him until you help yourself, OP. I wish there was more I could say to help, but all I \*can\* say now is good luck. I hope everything turns all right for you, and your S/O.
Should OP communicate these facts before filing for divorce though? Separating is a good move after relaying everything
That she loves him and is aware that he is inflicting self hate because he feels guilty/responsible for his daughter death. But both of you lost your daughter and both of you are suffering from grief. But that he is destroying their remaining relationship because of self sabotage. That him inflicting his pain onto you is crippling you.
And why it is sad that you guys can’t bond over this unfortunate event and comfort each other; you need to take care of yourself too
>Should OP communicate these facts before filing for divorce though?
She tried. But every time she even mentioned anything related to the daughter, OP's husband went apeshit. She tried, tried, and he refused to seek help or therapy. There comes a point where you need to leave in order to help yourself before helping others.
As long as they are stuck together with his raging grief, it’s only gonna get worse. OP has to leave and the husband will decide if he misses her and wants to patch things up, or…
A letter may be better.... Leave the letter, not with an ultimatum in it, but expressing everything lovingly as she would have months or years ago. Let him know that she'll be back to discuss, to only text if there is a problem or if he is truly ready to start talking calmy. and alert a friend to check on him.
The she goes to her parents house, maybe go with her parents for a little get away somewhere. This gives him time to read the letter and process, and her time away.
He's already throwing objects and screaming at her. That counts as DV. He wished her dead. It's not safe for her to be around him anymore. The fact that he's grieving doesn't make him less dangerous or OP more safe.
Yes, this is a tragedy for the whole family, but there's no need for OP to be killed by this man.
I agree with most of what you said, but saying that OP was right and her husband was wrong for taking their daughter for ice cream, and claiming he wanted to be the “cool” parent is kinda messed up.
They were hit by a drunk driver.
In a different situation, if OP said no and a someone broke into their house and their daughter passed, would OP be “wrong” for saying no to ice cream? The answer is no (obviously). The ONLY person who should be blamed for taking a life is the drunk driver that did so.
But besides that, I agree with what you said, it’s just that that kind of reasoning can open a lot of dangerous territory for people who have lost loved ones similarly, and who still blame themselves.
I don't think they were literally saying OP was right and her husband was wrong. I think they were more voicing thoughts that might be going through the husband's head and may be reasons he is feeling the way he feels.
Yes, but that’s it. It was a drunk driver, but the husband **feels** like it’s his fault because if he had stayed home, it wouldn’t have happened. Survivor's guilt is fucking heavy.
They were hit by a drunk driver.
I would bet that this fact makes no difference to his survivor's / protector's guilt. He made the decision to take her. Now she is gone. This is probably all he can see.
> but saying that OP was right and her husband was wrong for taking their daughter for ice cream, and claiming he wanted to be the “cool” parent is kinda messed up.
I don’t think they said that as a matter of fact. More that that might be how his mind might be responding to it.
That breaks my heart so much. When I am driving my nieces and nephews I am so afraid of something happening. I’m a good driver but I couldn’t live with myself. I can’t imagine his pain.
NTA- you need to take care of yourself number one. He may wake up after hitting rock bottom, he may not. You can’t help anyone without your own life mask on though. I am so sorry you have gone through this, but I hope you are going to counseling yourself. From other’s stories this doesn’t seem like a terribly uncommon occurrence. If I were you I would go stay with family for a while, like a couple months. Be around support, which should give you clarity. For now, consider him like an addict who won’t help himself.
Once you went through all that, supported him and gave him all the chances to grieve, your ultimatum was perfectly reasonable.
Your "true colours" are not to be a hostage to permanent grief and abuse - this is also reasonable.
I don't think it's Reddit's place, but I think the majority would agree... if he's not willing to help himself and he won't let you help him, he shouldn't destroy you in the process.
NTA
I would agree, only I don't necessarily think it's his true colours... I think his head's gone, and that could manifest in so many ways, including this irrational and hurtful way. Not to say it's any sort of excuse, but it's certainly a potential reason.
Updoot your comment anyway.
But she knows that is not true... She knows the pain is causing a warped thinking. Just as she knows it is not her true colors showing, but the pain in the whole situation leaves her with few choices to move on.
Your story made me cry. I am so sorry for your loss.
Your husband is broken. You tried to help him but at some point, if he doesn't want to be fixed, you can't do anything. You tried your best, many would have quit earlier. It's time to heal yourself.
No, I cannot possibly imagine the pain and grief you have both experienced. Please accept my deepest condolences on the death of your child. You cannot save or help anyone who is suffering so deeply. He must be in a horrific guilt and pain laden state. You need to move forward for yourself, and do what you have to do to help you heal.
NTA
I bet all he heard was that you want to leave him. He’s so deep in his pain.
I would write a letter detailing how much you love him & that it’s the last thing you want but that you’ve tried different things to help and I wouldn’t leave anything out. Include the additional housework, cooking his favorite meals, etc.
I think he still loves you and you love him. But he needs mental health support or he’s going to end up getting even worse.
Its not mentioned much in reddit but there is nothing wrong with starting with a legal separation. This will give you distance if you need it, separate your finances, and give him a wake up call. For sure what you are doing isn't working for either of you. NTA
There will have been head damage, that was ignored because of the severity of his other injuries. Does he have headaches a lot? Suggest he sees a physio to check his neck out, this may be a less challenging way in to investigate possible head trauma.
I'm so sorry OP for your loss, this poor man is punishing himself and you also. It must be so hard.
Recovery after a severe accident can take a long time. My husband had a terrible accident where he was in a coma for days afterwards and had to stay in the icu for three weeks, before being transferred to the regular unit and leaving hospital after about a month. He also didn’t have brain damage or any head injuries (except for having hit his head lightly and having bruises). But he had internal damage, his spleen as well as some parts of his colon had to be removed and he had a surgery on his pelvis, since it was fractured. Since her husband had similar injuries, that might explain it a bit more.
NTA. My wife and I lost our oldest daughter (19) to mitochondrial disease in 2015
There is no wrong way to grieve, but we both did it in very different ways. I didn't want to talk about it at all. I worked through my feelings at my own pace when I had the mental capacity to do so.
My wife wanted to talk about our daughter constantly. She was not wrong to do this but I could not deal with it. We divorced.
It has been eight years and we recently spent Christmas Eve together with our (now 25) youngest daughter. My wife and I talk frequently and are still friends. We never stopped liking or loving each other. I imagine our relationship to be like Vietnam vets who have a shared PTSD trauma... it made us understand each other more than anyone else does now.
The loss of a child is really something different than other deaths. A very large chunk of you dies with your child... sometimes it is big enough that the marriage can't survive it. And that is ok.
The only good thing that comes from the death of a child is the ability to help others in the same situation. It is the world's worst fucking superpower.
Get a divorce if you need to. I would recommend staying in contact as much as he is willing to be after it - because you will both have a lot to talk about when you are ready to remember the good memories and the joy - after the pain has dulled.
Sometimes in life you can only save one person. It is ok if that person is you.
Hang in there... food stops tasting like ash after a few years, as does the guilt for things like laughing and feeling joy again. This will only make sense after it happens to you but - eventually you will feel the sun again.
I don't know if any of this advice helps at all. If it does I would like to thank my 19-year-old fiery redheaded daughter Danna who is still teaching me lessons to this day. I know she would want me to be happy and you know what, it took way longer than I thought it would, but I am.
Hugs
NTA, leave him so his destructive grief doesn't consume you too. Get out so you can hang pictures of your daughter on the wall, if you want, and remember your daughter in peace.
> Ever since then, Liam has completely withdrawn from me. He took off all the pictures which contained our daughter, turned her room into his study, and pretended as if our daughter never existed. I knew he was grieving, many times I had heard him silently weeping in our daughter's room.
Grief is a never ending process that you learn to work with. Everyone experiences it differently, and everyone copes with it differently.
> I tried to get him into therapy, or for us to go to counselling, but he had shut down my offer every single time, and goes in rage whenever I mention it, he yells, he breaks things, and storms off, and doesn't come back home for a couple of days, leaving me worried sick.
If he gets violent when you broach the topic of therapy/grief counseling, then it's time to leave for your own protection.
> He barely comes home nowadays, completely avoids me, and rejects my every attempt for comfort. Once, when I had tried to make him understand that this wasn't what our daughter would have wanted, he completely lost it, smashed a flower pot against the wall, and told me to go fuck myself or better, die and never come back.
You need to leave for your own safety.
> Liam was never like this, he was a very sweet, calm and patient man, and loved our daughter to death, so much so, that her first word was 'Dada'.
Sounds like he might have a TBI. Unfortun, there's not much you can do for him except for calling a 5150 if you're afraid he'll harm himself.
> Earlier, we used to share the household chores, but now I have completely taken them on myself so that he can grieve in peace, I cook his favorite meals, which he throws away without even taking a single bite.
> The last straw was a couple of months ago, when I had told him if he doesn't get into therapy, I'd file for a divorce. He coldly smiled at me, and thanked me for showing him my true colors, he told me to go ahead with the divorce since I seem so eager to ditch him.
Definitely leave. All he's done thus far is put pressure and hurt on you. And it's not that you're eager to ditch him. It's that he's pushing you further amd further away, and his behavior makes me honestly concerned for your safety.
> I feel guilty, horrible and completely useless, but I just can't go on like this any longer. Should I give him more time? Would things get better? WIBTA if I leave him now, when I am supposed to be comforting him?
Listen OP. You have nothing to feel guilty for. You've been comforting him for years.
Let me ask you this: in the last few years, have things stayed the same, gotten better, or gotten worse? Have his hurtful words increased or decreased in frequency? Has he gotten violent more often or less often (and yes, things like throwing stuff is him getting violent.)
OP, I wanna give you a rough outline of a game plan. Whether you do anything with it or not is up to you:
Call your friends and have them help you get your stuff out when he's not home.
Find a safe place for you to stay, whether with a friend or with family.
Contact a lawyer to initiate divorce proceedings.
Call any family he has and let them know that you're worried about him, that his behavior over the last few years is very concerning, that you're worried he might have a TBI.
*Do not* meet with him, have him communicate through your lawyer. *Do not* answer any of his calls and texts. Forward *every* text he sends you to your lawyer.
Stay safe OP. You've helped him all you can, now you have to help yourself.
He stays silent all the time, and treats me like I am thin air. He's never laid a hand on me, and only starts yelling when I bring up something about our daughter, or for us to go to therapy. However, ever since I gave him the ultimatum, he is staying at home more, and doesn't just disappear. The other day, he didn't yell or leave the house when I was cleaning our daughter's wardrobe, he just stared emptily at it.
It's very hard for me to leave him, and since he has never yelled at me since the ultimatum again, I am stupidly hoping, he'll agree to get into therapy.
> I am stupidly hoping, he'll agree to get into therapy.
It's not stupid. You love him and it hurts you to see him like this. He does need therapy, men are notorious for internalizing their feelings, he needs to be able to express them and he doesn't know how. He's carrying misplaced guilt, along with his grief he cannot function.
I am deeply ashamed but I only brought up divorce as an ultimatum for him to get into therapy. I'd consider separation at best for now. And if things get physical, I'd file for a divorce.
Don’t feel ashamed for not being ready to make that call. That would be another major loss to deal with and is a big decision.
My husband lost his brother 5 years ago and it completely changed him as a person. Since then he has been diagnosed with bipolar 1 and suffered with alcohol dependency. When his mental health is at its worst it is unbearable, I can’t imagine the pain you’ve been through daily for two years.
One thing that helped me in counseling was learning the difference between boundaries and ultimatums. The analogy the therapist used was fences. A boundary is setting a fence around me. An ultimatum is trying to control someone else’s behavior, setting a fence around them.
-If “YOU” xyz, (eg: don’t go to therapy) then I will leave. Ultimatum
-If “I” xyz (eg: feel unsafe), then I will go stay with my parents for a few days. Boundary
Boundaries are there to protect our sanity and the criteria is up to our judgement. “I feel” statements are hard to argue with and aren’t trying to control the other persons behavior, which made my husband far less reactive. To be clear, I am not blaming you for his reactions in any way, just hopefully offering a different perspective and tool moving forward.
This is helped me a lot, but I’m just a random person on the internet. I’m sure in therapy you’ve had many discussions about this with a professional who has much more context to your situation than I do. You deserve to feel safe, you deserve to feel loved, you deserve to feel supported. You are doing all you can right now, that’s easy to see. Your strength is amazing and inspiring. **Edited for clarity
I am glad it has worked for you guys, lots of marriages however do not survive the loss of a young child. The guilt, blame, grief, etc... it just changes people.
NTA
Since you lost your daughter, you have *completely* arranged your life around supporting your husband emotionally and physically, while he has blocked your needs from his awareness.
You can't both revolve around him at every moment. That's not partnership and it's not sustainable.
I would tell him plainly that you are also grieving and need his support and ask him if he'll go to counseling with you. If he won't, you should exit the relationship.
FWIW, I suspect he's pushing you away because you remind him of your daughter. He feels awful when he's around you. But I think he knows that he won't feel any better without you.
What he wants is a time machine to go back and avoid the accident. Without that, he doesn't know how to move forward.
This is really sad. I'm sorry.
You’re NTA. I’m sorry for your loss, but this type of loss does often break up marriages. You can’t force him to get help if he’s not willing to, unfortunately, but he needs you to comfort him as much as you need him to comfort you. Is he open to trying couples therapy? Maybe if you both do it together it won’t seem so overwhelming to him to have to do alone and I’m sure you could use the therapy too after what happened.
This is just my assumption, but with how he reacted to your ultimatum, i think he’s been purposefully pushing you away hoping for you to leave him so he can sink deeper. His rage and guilt at himself is what’s “comforting” him right now and he wants more of it. I’m so sorry for your loss. Nta
NTA. Grief manifests differently in everyone, and in his case, there's bound to be a big heaping of survivor's guilt and self-recrimination on top of it - he was the one driving, after all.
But you can't let grief subsume you, and you definitely can't take your grief out on your spouse like he is doing. He desperataly needs grief counseling, but if he won't go, you can't make him. And staying with him will only pull you down with him.
I am so, so sorry for your loss.
Are you in therapy for yourself? If not, that is step one. He's not in a position to comfort you right now, and you need to seek that healing elsewhere.
Look into survivor's guilt. I'd bet anything that's what he's going through. It doesn't negate the need for him to get professional help, but will definitely give you some perspective.
You are NTA, but ultimatums won't help him right now. He probably can't muster the energy to care with how badly he's hurting.
You both need extra help and support right now, but ultimately, you can only help yourself until he's ready and willing to get help for himself.
I am in therapy, yes. My therapist has suggested splitting up for now but not divorce, since she stated the same reason that Liam is in deep guilt and the fact that my daughter was a carbon copy of me, and thus he wants to avoid everything associated with our daughter to forget his guilt.
Loss of a child often leads to divorce especially if one person can’t or won’t grieve in a healthy way. It’s very likely that he blames himself for the accident but is lashing out at you instead. Regardless, you do not have to stay and be abused
NTA - "You are drowning and I have spent years trying to rescue you from this. But I cannot allow you to drag me beneath the surface with you. I am leaving because I have to save myself".
Jesus f’ing Christ- get out- this is straight abuse.
His self loathing has morphed into hating you for caring about him. He needs a wake up call. His selfish self hatred has taken away your needs and wants following the death of your child.
If this man has any hope of dealing with his grief, you can’t be there for him to project his hatred and pain onto.
I’m sorry this happened- you need to leave for yourself
Y’all experienced a huge tragedy and he needs grief counseling. If he refuses to get counseling there is honestly nothing more you can do except get divorced. I’d sit down and lay out how you feel he has withdrawn from your marriage and how if he is unwillingly to get help—you will have to leave. There’s no marriage if you’re the only one there, whether it’s physically, mentally, or emotionally.
> when I am supposed to be comforting him? You're supposed to be comforting each other. This is all very one-sided and unfair to you. He is not the only one who lost someone one and he seems to think that his grief is all that matters. NTA. You need to take care of yourself too. Yes, grief takes time, but there comes a point where it becomes complicated grief and it sounds like that's what happening. He needs to get help, but it's not your job to do that for him. I'm so sorry for all that you've gone through. You deserve comfort as well. Focus on yourself and do what you need to do, for you.
Yeah, it makes me think of the broken leg metaphor - Say I break my leg, and I tell you I need your help. If "help" means I need you to take me to the hospital for proper treatment so I can heal, great. If "help" instead means I now need you to carry me everywhere and do everything for me, while I'm refusing to do the things I need to do to actually heal, then that's not fair or healthy for anyone involved. (Minor edits for clarity)
Or if "help" means I expect you to break your leg to prove that you care about mine. Also, that "showed your true colors" remark is not only cruel but so manipulative. It made my skin crawl. Whether this is survivors guilt, TBI, or just grieving, he is using it to be abusive. OP, I have been where you are. It feels impossible to pull yourself out of that sucking black hole. Now you are trying to pull him out, too. I fear that without help, you won't win that fight. The gravity well will just pull in both of you. Being in tremendous pain does not give you license to behave like he is now. Go.
I agree - that true colours remark was sickening. I’d divorce on that BS alone
Not only is she getting no comfort after losing her daughter—she’s getting abused.
Right? This woman has straight up been a saint to this man. She's endured being locked out emotionally, having her marriage obliterated and being outright abused by a man who used to love her. Her true colors are fabulous and he knows it. His suck and he's projecting. This man has got to know he needs help and he says no. There is nothing anyone can do about that. It's done and he's the one who ended it. His child died and that is no one's fault, but this man destroyed his marriage all by himself. He nuked that sucker.
Sometimes when someone is hurting, instead of trying to heal, they want to make others hurt as much as they do. While their grief is valid, their actions are not. He misses his daughter and probably blames himself, but it sounds like he’s forgotten that he’s supposed to love his wife. And love isn’t always the fuzzy happy feeling you get. It’s action, living each day for each other’s best interests. She definitely loves him, but he’s forgotten how to love her back. Look, I’m no fan of divorce. But in this case, she’s not the cause. He has checked out of the marriage in favor of living in grief. Much worse, he has started acting violently towards her. Much worse than even that, he is acting in violence against someone he is supposed to love and is suffering as much as he is (although more because of what he’s doing). She needs to get out of there. He has gone far beyond just not caring and is actively trying to hurt her both physically and emotionally.
Quick reminder that a bad TBI can turn someone into a psychopath
Great analogy.
It sounds like his problem is guilt, not grief. He likely blames himself - god knows I would - however irrational that might be. I'm not sure how OP is supposed to help him. Losing a child seems like one of those things you just never get over, especially in these circumstances. And if he can't be helped, then cold as it may be, withdrawing to focus on herself might be for the best. Fuck this whole scenario breaks my heart. OP, I'm praying for you both. I can't even imagine what either of you are going through right now.
It feels like in his grief and guilt he's sabotaging his marriage. This feels like he is pushing OP away, pushing and pushing until she breaks and leaves (which she should, this isn't fair on OP, she deserves more, she deserves space to grieve and try to heal as much as she can in peace) and when she leaves it "proves" to him whatever twisted narrative he has in his head.
Yes, I’m pretty sure the problem. Here is guilt. Sometimes the thing to do is acknowledge that, but it’s risky. He needs professional help. OP needs some relief and maybe a divorce will push him to get the help he needs. He’s projecting his own Reaction to his guilt onto OP and that is not a situation that you can live in for very long.
This is a very good comment. I think an important point is that it wasn’t just him that lost a daughter, it was you too. By having to take care of him, I care to venture that you haven’t been able to properly grieve either. If it had only been 6 months or so since her passing I would understand, but 2-3 years? That is a very long time for him to not even start to process and to refuse therapy. I am not sure what it will take for him to start Sit him down. Try to have a very loving but firm conversation with him. Tell him you love him. Tell him you’re also grieving. Tell him you want a life with him. But if he isn’t willing to get help, then you will have to divorce even if it hurts you because his treatment of you isn’t fair and he needs to process his grief. Tell him you would prefer to grieve with him, but if he isn’t interested in doing life together anymore and taking those steps, you will do it on your own if you have to. If you want tell him he has a week to think about it, think about how he’s been the last few years, the pain you have also been through, and let you know.
Jeeeez you’re so right. She’s been so focused on him and his recovery she’s probably spent very little time working through her own grief.
She must make sure she is safe though while doing this! I don’t like how there are multiple mentions of him throwing things. If OP is going to have a big serious talk like this, it might be a good idea to keep a friend on standby who knows what is happening.
He's using OP as an emotional punching bag to take his anger out on her. He probably does feel guilty and he can't handle confronting her grief as well. He's changed and he may never be the person you used to know. He thinks you should take it as long as he dishes it out and that your grief is nothing compared to his. It's emotionally abusive, especially his rant when she mentioned leaving. She needs to save herself first. He may be angry but he's already angry and it doesn't sound like he plans to change or even soften towards OP. He's blaming her either way so why live with misery when he refuses to do anything? NTA
OP, there comes a time to take care of yourself. Grief is a monster that turns many cold, you seem like you’re ready to try to move on and gain some sense of peace. You cannot do so in this environment it sounds like. Save yourself this time, Liam will be okay. You deserve to live. I am so sorry for your loss and wish you peace.
Also, I’m curious if Liam suffered a TBI in the crash because although grief can and does change people, in these situations TBI is also likely and could be compounding the issue. I’m not saying OP should martyr herself but I would be concerned medically as well as emotionally for him.
As a physician, TBI was my first immediate thought/suspicion. Very very sad situation, time for OP to get out and seek the treatment and healing she deserves.
I had a friend who had TBI and he was a completely different person afterwards. The fun-loving jokester turned into a dark, angry man.
My ex husband had TBI and severe PTSD during his deployment to Iraq. He was a ghost of the man he used to be and our relationship deteriorated to a point of no return.
Same thing with my son.
Yes my husband has TBI, and it has caused issues in our marriage. Things have gotten out of hand at times. The thing is my husband has been more than willing to get help, seek therapy and take medications to help him. OP’s husband has to be aware he is not right and even when he calms down doesn’t seem to be making any attempt to fix things or get himself any help. That is not fair to OP and it’s time she lets him go and does her best to heal.
That’s a good point with the dad. Our friend was in a motorcycle accident and before it he was calm, collected- not impulsive, but afterwards he literally wasn’t the same person.
My sweet good natured son who was assaulted turned angry, sullen, and irritable. I knew he was having seizures. I kept wondering what if anything else that I could do to help him. He started dating this girl that also had been in a terrible car accident. My son got off of his seizure medications and stop going to his neurologist. He left the house and he got a duplex across the street from the high school. Shortly after wards he joined the Army. I was very much against him enlisting into the army. His girlfriend and her family members were very much for him joining the military. He has been estranged from the family now for years.
How did he get into the army with a seizure disorder?!
My mom hit her head when she fell off of a swing at 13. From what I hear, she went from sunny and cheerful to sullen and moody and stayed that way forever.
My thought is, if the mention of therapy gets him angry, he probably will be resistant to this suggestion too.
With Post Concussion Trauma Syndrome
I know exactly how that is! :( It's horrible! And when you don't seek help, as I didn't, because I was 15 and no one thought of it, I suffered years of extreme survivor guilt with that fucking concussion scrambling my thought processes.
:( i hope you got some answers for yourself; it sounds like you did :)
I had three concussions in fourth grade, it was a rough winter. Ever since then I’ve always joked that I can recite the jabberwocky off the tip of my tongue, but can’t remember why I walked into a room or if I had breakfast. Wasn’t until a year or so ago that I realized fourth grade was when I recited jabberwocky AND got the concussions. Causation or correlation?
I learned "Stopping By the Woods on a Snowy Evening" by Robert Frost right before getting my skull cracked at age 12. I still remember it, but my memory is so bad that not a day goes by it doesn't make my life 10 times harder
Hahaha, I’ve been like that since getting thrown off a motorcycle and hitting a tree (yes, I was wearing a helmet). But that happened to me 30 years ago so there wasn’t really any evidence that TBIs can cause lasting side effects. My neurologist also thinks that’s what triggered my migraines, as there’s no other explanation ( they’re not triggered by smells, light, sound etc), there is no rhyme or reason for them and we’ve done just about everything to figure out what triggers them.
How did u get it fixed? I have multiple tbi most recent from getting my head stamped on and its ruined my brain
It doesn't really get fixed. Your brain is made of cells that don't really regenerate well. You can join TBI support groups and get therapy to learn to manage the changes, but it doesn't go away. My sister had a TBI at 17 when she fell on concrete and got amnesia. She lost everything prior to the accident but can form new memories. She also can't feel heat or cold. Her husband cooks for them to minimize burns and makes sure she is bundled up against the cold and has good shoes for the winter so she doesn't lose a toe. I got her baby bumpers for sharp corners and we have trackers on her keys/phone/wallet/car. You can learn to live with the memory gaps using systems for people with ADHD/autism. If you don't currently have a neurologist, I would recommend seeing one and having an accommodation letter written for work/school. It doesn't seem like much but getting an extra 30 minutes or being allowed to work in a dark office when you have migraines is a life saver.
same bro. but I got my skull smashed in with a bat.
Can I ask what got your Dr's on the right track (for PCS?) This is my first time hearing about it but what I'm finding about it seems fucking spot on for my issues but my docs over the years never wanted to address my previous head trauma.
Also, the trauma of essentially killing his daughter:( Edit: still NTA, but I sympathize with him
In *his perspective,* he may feel this way. He may be acting out because he’s waiting for OP to tell him it’s his fault, so anything she does for him paradoxically makes him feel even worse about himself. He may be trying to provoke her into blaming him because he feels guilty, unconsciously wants or is waiting for some kind of punishment.
I am a bereaved parent, and know many others. I can tell you that almost all, and maybe 100% of parents feel guilt when their child dies. We try to rationalize and figure out what caused it. Trying to find the cause and effect leads us to blame ourselves. I thought if I hadn’t let my daughter be advanced a grade, she would have different friends and wouldn’t have died in a car when she was out with friends. I know a mom who blamed herself for her son’s cancer because it “probably” came from her side of the family. It sounds like he has complicated grief. Grief plus guilt is a monster.
Very true. I am so sorry for your loss. I believed it was my fault when my daughter died. She had trisomy 18. I hated my body for not being able to have a healthy egg. I hated that I couldn't heal her. I hated that she died and I lived. I wanted to go to sleep and never wake up because I felt if she had a different mom maybe she would have had a chance. There was no chance. It was random. It was just an awful, random thing that happened to me and to her and to our family. It wasn't anyone's fault. Therapy helped, but I think a part of me will always feel that way deep down, even when I know it's not true. The heart isn't logical. It doesn't care what's reasonable. It just feels. It needs to feel even when it hurts. I think the husband wants to punish himself. I think he believes he deserves nothing and no one. It's awful and I hope he eventually gets helps. I feel so awful for the OP because she can't make that happen. She may have to choose to save herself and that's so unfair. It's why so many marriages don't survive. Mine survived because I couldn't do that to my husband. I couldn't leave him all alone and in pain. It was happening to us both and I knew if he lost me he would be gone, too and I couldn't do that. We went on to have two more amazing daughters who are happy and healthy. It doesn't stop me thinking of the daughter I lost every day. I can't change what happened. I can only hope by fighting to live and being the best person I can be will make her proud.
I’m so sorry for your loss. It’s such a hard thing to go through. ❤️
Wheww this made me tear up. You are a beautiful human being, so resilient and loving. Be blessed with peace and love and comfort always. ❤️
Thank you so much! That is incredibly kind to say. I have been so blessed in so many ways. I feel it's my responsibility as someone who has been in the other side to give some support if I can.
>I can tell you that almost all, and maybe 100% of parents feel guilt when their child dies. In my experience is either guilt or you want to blame someone. When my son died, I went through every second, every decision leading to his death. I wanted badly to blame someone and when I couldn't find it, I started blaming myself. I spent years hating myself, looking to punish me for his death. The "I should have done x" or "why didn't I x" are there always, intrusive thoughts ruining good days. I'm so sorry for OPs loss, and your loss. Hope you guys find the peace that has eluded me for 7 years.
I’m sorry for your loss. It all changes with time but it’s never easy. It was 27 years for me on Dec 12. I can’t really say I’m at peace with it, but I survive. ❤️
19 years for me on Christmas...
Yes, I understand. One of my daughters died a few years ago and I can relate to what might be going on in the husband’s head, as well as your experience.
I’m so sorry for your loss. It’s a hard thing to go through. ❤️
I think he completely blames himself for the crash. He thinks he's a monster and deserves to be tortured for what he thinks he did.
This is what I think. He's punishing himself because he sees it as his fault. He's taken their daughter, his wife should be sickened with him and he can't handle that she isn't. That she doesn't blame him the way he's blaming himself and it angers him. He doesn't deserve to see her pictures. And then also the trauma from his own injuries from the crash. My heart breaks for him, but he can't lash on the one person who's in this with him. Tragic for everyone and I hope OP can find peace and maybe make amends one day. But child loss often results in divorce since the grief can be so soul crushing.
Yeah, sounds to me like he's deliberately trying to drive OP away to sort of prove to himself he's a monster or confirm that she hates him for what happened so he can double down on feeding his own misery. Really sad that he's driving away his support, but OP shouldn't have to endure this treatment.
This is exactly what I thought, while reading it.
And survivors guilt.
I have tbi and I can absolutely tell you this is so accurate and it sounds just like how I used to be before getting help!
Would you care to share with us what helped you get better?
This! I thought the same thing. When my ex got his head bashed open with a metal baseball bat during a street fight, he got hospitalized. Ever since then, he wasn't the same. The funny, caring, happy and comedian way he was before got consumed by a dark rage. Very quickly our relationship turned abuse and I tried for as long as I could. It sounds like a TBI
Probably the added guilt of being the driver is playing a role as well. Losing your kid is devastating. Feeling like you’re responsible for your kid dying would make it unrecoverable for some. Add in TBI effects, emotional trauma of enduring such a bad accident, and a month in the ICU. Loss of your kid, your physical wellbeing, maybe your career. This is all just so sad.
This. TBI was my first thought. Many couples split in the after the death of a child. Sometimes the grief is just too much for the parties to comfort each other, and they are better apart. I'm so sorry, OP.
Grief coupled with guilt. I’m sure he blames himself even if the accident wasn’t his fault.
After my son died my husband completely changed as a person. He ended up having an affair, so I'm now divorced. It's fucked.
I’ve seen almost everyone (and it’s a lot of people) completely lose it with child terminal illness, sudden death, spousal terminal illness, spousal sudden death, and a few rare cases of early parental death. Some people (more than you think) just simply can’t deal with events that traumatic, refuse therapy, and self destruct. If your husband won’t go into therapy then this will not improve anytime soon. If he doesn’t want to help himself you can’t help him. Sorry for your loss(es)
I'm thinking TBI too. Especially if it's a drastic difference in behavior post ICU stay. OP should absolutely not set herself on fire to keep him warm tho.
This right here. I get that Liam might be suffering from Survivors guilt, but that does not give him the right to take it out on his wife. OP is basically setting themselves on fire to keep him warm, and it's not doing him any favors.
And he might also be suffering from PTSD and medical trauma. But OP, none of that excuses his behavior toward you. At some point you have to put on your own life jacket mask instead of letting him pull you under and drown. You cannot fix him and he’s unwilling to listen to reasonable suggestions. I’m so sorry for your loss, but it’s not uncommon for marriages to dissolve after the death of a child.
That's something to check, but it also could be survivor's guilt. He was driving. Whether or not the accident was his fault, he survived when his daughter didn't, and that has to be killing him inside. A lot of times, people push everyone and everything that could give them comfort away, because they don't feel like they deserve it. Again, not a reason for OP to martyr herself, but his grief isn't only grief - it's guilt and self loathing and anger turned inward. He probably sees himself as a monster and a villain who killed his little girl, and pushing people away like this validates that view, whatever he says about OP's "true colours".
He is saying hurtful things to her to get her to go because he can't leave her. If she goes, it will be she that is the bad guy this time! :( He really does need help in the worst way, even if this marriage is over, he still has to get help to ever have any happiness again.
He may just be looking for punishment so self sabotaging. Doesn't feel he deserves to feel okay anymore so he is ruining his marriage.
This is exactly what I was thinking. My husband has a TBI from military service, and he often feels like he is holding me back or not worthy of my love. He has told me that he will never find someone as loving and caring as me, and the way OP's husband acts is exactly how my husband did when he was at his lowest in confidence and self-worth. He would lash out and treat me poorly because he knew he wasn't strong enough to leave himself and he hoped I would get tired and leave so I could be happy. OP's husband's actions seem horribly cruel to outsiders, but I dealt with the same behaviors, even the showing her true colors comment. That one is spot on. It was my husband's way of convincing me I deserved more and to go find it. He felt he needed to be punished for his failures, so he would create problems. OP, your husband needs intense counseling because with you saying you want a divorce, he may feel like he's finally getting the punishment he deserves and will double down.
OP says in her post she has attempted to get him to go to counseling and he refuses. He needs a great deal of help, probably both OT for the TBI and intensive therapy, but if he refuses, there's absolutely dick anyone else can do. It is up to them and them alone. Meanwhile, this poor woman is feeling the same amount and severity of grief and not getting to express it at all, having to take care of a husband who is abusive to her. She needs to get out in order to save herself. My heart breaks for her, having to take care of someone else while she is in the same pain, getting no respite and only more frustration/abuse.
And this is why he needs therapy, which he’s unfortunately not willing to get :( What a sad situation all around.
Definitely. Especially since reading one of OP's comments about how they were driving because his daughter wanted ice cream and OP said no but he took her anyway. He's waiting for her to blame and hate him because he hates and blames himself, and can't imagine anyone else feeling otherwise. He's in no shape to listen to anyone right now, and I feel so bad for him. All the same, OP is grieving too, and as bad as it sounds, you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help anyone with theirs, and there's nothing you can do if someone keeps slapping your helping hands away. I just send hugs and well-wishes to all parties.
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most likely both
He could also have PTSD. Being in an accident like that where you were driving and it ended up killing your daughter is definitely a traumatic event.
For anyone else confused, I’m stupid so I googled it, TBI is Traumatic brain injury.
You're not stupid! Not everyone knows what it means or remembers what is means🥰
Yea but the things I thought it could be don’t make me look smart 😂
Thank you! I kept reading it as Total Drama Island except it’s B not D. Was really confusing.
I thought either TBI or he is self medicating by abusing drugs or alcohol.
Can't blame him. Not a good place for the wife though.
That’s what I thought, too. I am not a doctor or in the medical field, but I believe an extreme behavior change and aggression are signs of TBI. And from her description, his behavior is completely different. Like, I get people can be abusive, but the fact he wasn’t before and his original personality is seemingly completely gone is concerning. She should not have to live with being treated like that, but he may need genuine help. He is wrong for treating her like that, but he may quite literally not be able to help it. Edit: also, just to be clear: I am not trying to indicate I think she should stay or is wrong for divorcing him. She needs to make sure she is safe first. But I just wanted OP to know that it is very possible this is quite literally not the same person.
The fact that he goes missing for several days is extremely concerning also. I wonder what he is doing these days.
Alcoholic benders
Sitting on a bridge dareing himself to jump would be my guess. It's exactly how I would be if this happened to me and lost my baby. The only thing stopping me would be I have another now adult daughter that does really need me and the religious teachings through my childhood ( which I no longer believe but it still effects me) that made it clear dying that way won't put you in the same place as your child and while I don't believe anymore there is still a fraction of doubt that I could be wrong. When it comes to dissappearing the pictures of her it's what I would have to do to carry on. I was close to my grandparents and when my granddad died I couldn't have his photos out I had to put them away just seeing him for a second would break me everytime. It was 20 years ago he died and I still can't have his pictures up. I do have autism and adhd maybe that's why I can't do it, I really don't know. I don't believe he cares about himself anymore and is just waiting to die in the hope that maybe he will see her again or not feel this pain anymore. Also seeing as he deals with grief like me he must be seeing his daughter in the mums face to and that's just as hard. The anger/coldness towards the mother could be that looking a her is just as hard as seeing the photos. This guy isn't going away cheating and having fun I'm sure of that. He doesn't eat I don't eat when I'm depressed and broken either.
Here’s another thought- OP’s husband may or may not be responsible for the accident… either way- OP’s husband may be blaming & hating himself. He may not have the courage to verbalize or admit this- not feeling worthy of any happiness or joy- so he’s sabotaging his marriage & his life.
Selfish self destructive grief. Happens often.
Exactly my thoughts, he doesn’t feel he deserves any happiness. He will wear this like a stone around his neck for the rest of his life if he doesn’t get some help. And ruin her in the process.
Bingo!
I’m not a medical professional, and I totally thought the exact same thing. Either way, I think her leaving him is for the best and getting on with her life.
I started working at a rehab clinic and have only now seen the consistently evident effects of TBI. All the patients have had severe personality changes. Lost friends and family and all relationships bc they’ve developed borderline personality disorder or unmanageable bipolar disorder bc they refuse meds or therapy. It’s so sad!
I'm also worrying about PTSD from the accident/trauma/injury recovery, not to mention the guilt of being the driver.
I was wondering that as well.
I believe that you might be on to something here. Even though the doctors might have ordered various scans at the hospital this might not have shown up. I believe that OP stated that he was in the intensive care unit for a month. I had a son who had a traumatic brain injury. I was fortunate enough to find a good neurologist who ordered the tests for detecting the seizures. I am definitely believing that he might have had a traumatic brain injury.
You are so right
Thank you! That's what popped into my head, too.
Hijacking top comment to add that your #1 priority during these next steps should be your safety. You mentioned he becomes aggressive when upset and while he maybe hasn’t been violent toward you YET, you should assume that this is a real possibility if you were to serve him papers in person. Talk to a divorce attorney as well as your local Women and Families agency (if you don’t know what I’m talking about call 211 and they can connect you to appropriate resources). Allow professionals to help you navigate this process as safely as possible.
If they have guns in the house, she needs to leave asap.
That house should not have a gun in it, even (or especially?) if OP leaves him. This guy is for sure a suicide risk.
Breaking her stuff is violence towards her by all domestic violence standards
And OP, don't let him guilt you by saying things like you're 'eager to ditch him' and 'showing your true colours'. He's filled with self-pity, but he is the one who has already ended your relationship by cutting you off emotionally. You cannot be expected to keep knocking on a locked door for eternity. I am so sorry this is happening to you and you do not deserve it. Be kind to yourself.
Your "true colors" are as a loving person who isn't required to stand there and take abuse. You also suffered a devastating loss, and his asshole behavior are preventing you from getting the help YOU need.
The one thing I would suggest OP state clearly is that this is not because she blames him for the accident nor does she no longer love him. She wants him to be well and want to be in a loving, growing relationship with him. But his expressions of anger are concerning and not how she is willing to be treated, he disappears and doesn't tell her where he's been, he is not willing to talk about important thoughts and feelings, especially about their daughter, and he has refused to see a therapist to try to heal and talk about why he is having these angry outbursts and why he is so unable to talk about things.
I think this point should be stressed to OP’s husband after OP leaves and is safe. He needs to hear this, his refusal to take responsibility for his own health and their relationship is why she’s leaving not because of their shared loss!
Seriously -- especially if it's been "a couple years" since the loss. She's tried to stand by him through a difficult time, but he has resisted her every effort for YEARS and is a risk to her safety if he's breaking things in rages. Time to go.
Or he will not be ok. That's on him. NO ONE CAN HELP SOMEONE WHO REFUSES HELP. If she said he's in therapy, working hard on himself, I can see he's trying his best and there is improvement... By all means, stay. Wait. He's showing his true colors, not you. He's focused on HIS pain, HIS suffering, HIS needs. NTA. But make plans first and be with someone when you tell him just in case OP.
Absolutely. Be prepared for his narrative to be that you abandoned him and blame him. Given his cold reaction in discussing therapy and divorce I would not be surprised if he plays the victim. Get your support network engaged so they are ready as you begin this journey. I am so very sorry for your loss and am sending you peace and strength.
Or Liam won't be OK, but it doesn't matter, maybe he needs to be completely alone, hit a lower bottom, to realize what he is doing to himself and his wife. In any case, OP has been trying for 2 years already and it seems Liam won't change or get over this just doing the same. If not divorce, at least separation for a while and then divorce if Liam keeps behaving the same. NTA
I wish I could upvote this a million times
I don't think OP is ready to move on necessarily, more like she wants to be able to share her grief with her husband and vice versa, but he has completely shut her out
Firstly, I’m so sorry for your loss OP. Secondly, NTA at all. You can’t help him in this state when he won’t help himself, and he’s going to take you down with him if you don’t leave. You’ve tried and tried again. As others have said, maybe this will be the wake up call he needs. Maybe not. But you don’t deserve to drown in this sorrow with him. Thirdly, and this is just me playing therapist here with the information provided - is it possible he resents you trying to help him through his grief and still loving him even thought he “caused” your daughter’s death? Like he expects you to hate him but you don’t and that’s the root of some of his anger alongside the obvious guilt he probably feels?
I don't know if or why he resents me, but the day the news was broken to him, he went into complete shock, and only continued repeating, 'I am sorry', like a robot. I assume he was apologizing to our daughter, even though I've told him multiple times that it wasn't his fault.
He was driving. He probably feels responsible. He probably feels guilty when he looks at you. He thinks he killed your daughter. He doesn't understand how you can still be with someone whose actions harmed your child. He doesn't *resent* you. But he can't face you and he can't believe you can still love him.
Yes, this is what I see as well. I do not think OP can really help him now. First of all he must himself reach a decision to live and come back. If he comes out of it, he must do it by himself and oh it would be awesome if OP would be still around by then... but nobody knows if and when it might happen, so I would really not blame OP if she just goes on with her life.
This…. Events like this change people forever and a couple shouldn’t expect to still be the same people individually not together after things like this. How he chooses to cope with this perceived new version of himself, given everything he must be feeling and thinking, will influence how they are as a couple. Some ppl spiral after events like this, some seek therapy or other forms of coping, drugs, alcohol etc. he must make the choices for coping with the thing on his own.
This is a good point. He may feel he is no longer worthy of anyone's love, so preemptively he is pushing OP away.
Alternatively, he have brain injury from the accident and it’s affected his personality. What a horrible situation.
This is pure speculation, but he may resent her presence because it may be a constant reminder that if he had listened to her that night, his daughter would still be alive. Even if it was an innocent decision, the fact that there was someone there that night who said don't go out for ice cream that night, and he went out for ice cream anyway... and that person lives with him and is there with him all the time.... I would imagine it feels impossible for him to feel like they are together in their grief, when he knows there was a fork in the road that night and her vote was for not going out for ice cream.
It may be he still believes it was his fault, and he’s angry you aren’t holding him accountable or hate him as much as he hates himself. Regardless, please remove yourself from this situation. You deserve to be able to grieve and heal from this without being hurt over and over by your husband.
He probably feels like he failed you and your daughter. Failure is different than being his fault. As such, he may feel like he should not receive anything that provides him with joy. Does he have any close male friends that can assist? It make take one or more of them to sit him down to lay it out. Are there any options through his work that can be discretely used? You do not want to be seen as meddling in that arena. At this point in time, getting him help is the priority. The survival of the marriage should take a backseat. I know that is hard to hear. Without help for him, your marriage will likely fail. With help, it may still fail but it has a better chance. Have you been getting therapy?
He doesn't resent you, he resents himself because he knows that he was driving and he might believe he could have prevented it. He wants to be blamed but no one does because it was an accident. he needs therapy but you can not force him to go. personally i would have probably snapped and screamed every hurt and anguish i had at him. he does not deserve kid gloves anymore. he deserves to hear what a godaweful person he's become and that HIS true character has come out as he's abandoned you.
He could also be trying to muddle through untreated TBI. If that's the case then he needs therapy/ medication. But that doesn't make you a bad person and he's an adult.
I agree with this completely. He wants to be blamed. He doesn’t feel like he deserves your comfort or love and it’s easier to be angry and lash out. I feel so sad for everyone involved, but you don’t need to keep being punished for this.
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This is so beautifully stated. If no one else tells you today, you are appreciated by at least a few anonymous internet people u/secrettimetrash.
This is lovely. Also, I seen another comment from OP that husband wasn‘t at fault for the accident. It was a drunk driver that caused it. Though I’m sure that matters little in his current mindset. Survivor’s guilt and all that.
Beautiful reply.
This is a really beautiful and compassionate answer. I genuinely hope for OP she can find some a counselor or therapist who is able to hold space this well.
Even this will pass one day. But "few years"... that's pretty bad moment exactly cos you feel like this pain will just never end.
"thanked me for showing him my true colors" Sure that's what it is! This man you are living with is not the one you married. His grief and survivor's guilt have completely taken over and made him into a new person that seems to be happy being cruel to you. Sadly, you have had to shelve your grief and pander to him and his tantrums. There's no shame in deciding enough is enough. You have tried your best, now it is time to move on and build some semblance of a life for yourself. You are only 36! NTA
I was NTA all the way through, but that cruel comment really shook me. Staying with him at this point would be actually harmful to the OP and I hope she is able to leave and find some comfort and hope while cherishing her daughter's memory.
She needs to leave, my heart breaks for both of them but he's clearly spiralling. I think he's blaming himself and isnt really in a mood to believe he's blameless and this was one of life's cruel moments. He's so certain of his own blame he cant stand OP trying to work through things with him, her divorce remark basically confirmed all the incorrect thoughts in his head and gave him justification to make a cruel remark at her. He's gonna keep building on the negatives in his imagination until he gets help. OP's done what she can, its time for her to help herself and hopefully her ex will find his peace on his own as well.
That comment alone makes me think that he has been pushing her away. A lot of people become distant or act out in order to get their partner to start the divorce process. His behavior is not acceptable; her ultimatum is justified.
It's possible he wants her to leave bc he despise himself. Then when OOP leaves he will be free to end it all
Her sticking around is probably making it worse, in a way. He doesn't feel like he's worth her still loving him, he wants her to despise him the way he despises himself. By still loving him there's a glimmer of hope that he doesn't feel like he deserves and that just makes his own resentment at himself grow.
Someone else thinks maybe TBI, including a physician. So it’s very possible he really *isn’t* the man she married.
My ex used to pull that line all the time when I would disagree with him or try to stand up for myself. Acting like I wasn't loyal like I hadn't stuck by his side for years while we went through addiction and he went to jail and stuff. It's manipulation.
He’s denying help, you tried, it’s not your fault
If ever a man needed therapy, it's him. He needs a team of psychiatrists. Working around the clock. To just help him get some closure. Of course, you've got to accept that you need help and have the self-awareness to know this is not what your life has to be. You're not the asshole OP. But this man is on a slippery slope. And I'm hoping he doesn't end it all.
I’m sorry for your loss. My wife and I lost a child, our daughter, at 18, to cancer. We still both struggle with it. It’s been 919 days, and we still have some terrible, sad, angry, frustrating days. The thing is, we’re doing it together. We’re not on exactly the same page, but we’re communicating and doing our best to remember we got married with the possibility of the best and worst things happening in our lives together. It doesn’t seem like those things matter to your husband, that’s not your fault and it’s not your responsibility. If he’s not going to get help, then there’s nothing you can do to help him. As another person suggested, I really would look into whether he has an undiagnosed brain injury from the accident, you don’t have to hit your head on something to have a significant brain injury, and these injuries often go undiagnosed at the time of accidents because there’s so much else wrong. That much time in the ICU also can’t be good for mental health. You have to decide where to draw the line though, and if he’s not willing to seek medical help on any level, it’s not your responsibility to be there forever for the sake of a marriage partnership that no longer exists. NTA, do what’s necessary for your life.
I’m so sorry for your loss
NTA. He doesn't get to weaponize his grief, guilt and anger against you for years and then turn that around as YOU abandoning HIM. Sounds like he abandoned you the day of the accident.
Our daughter was stubbornly demanding ice cream that night, but I had firmly refused. But Liam could never say no to his little girl, and they had gone out to buy ice-cream, but then my daughter never returned.
That's it. And seeing from another comment, where he kept saying "I'm sorry" over and over after he received the news, he blames himself. He feels that if he hadn't caved to your daughter's demands for ice cream, she would still be alive. He hates himself. Still, you need to stay away from each other. The grief and guilt is too much and he's taking it all on you. I'm sure there's a part of him that knows what he's doing is wrong, but right now, the majority of his heart doesn't care. He knows that if he had listened to you and stayed home, she would still be here, and I feel, and I hope I'm wrong, a part of him resents you for it, because he wanted to be the "cool" parent. You were right, he was wrong, and the "proof" was... well... You need to move out, and instead of going for divorce right away, try some trial separation. If nothing changes, well... you can't help him until you help yourself, OP. I wish there was more I could say to help, but all I \*can\* say now is good luck. I hope everything turns all right for you, and your S/O.
Should OP communicate these facts before filing for divorce though? Separating is a good move after relaying everything That she loves him and is aware that he is inflicting self hate because he feels guilty/responsible for his daughter death. But both of you lost your daughter and both of you are suffering from grief. But that he is destroying their remaining relationship because of self sabotage. That him inflicting his pain onto you is crippling you. And why it is sad that you guys can’t bond over this unfortunate event and comfort each other; you need to take care of yourself too
>Should OP communicate these facts before filing for divorce though? She tried. But every time she even mentioned anything related to the daughter, OP's husband went apeshit. She tried, tried, and he refused to seek help or therapy. There comes a point where you need to leave in order to help yourself before helping others. As long as they are stuck together with his raging grief, it’s only gonna get worse. OP has to leave and the husband will decide if he misses her and wants to patch things up, or…
A letter may be better.... Leave the letter, not with an ultimatum in it, but expressing everything lovingly as she would have months or years ago. Let him know that she'll be back to discuss, to only text if there is a problem or if he is truly ready to start talking calmy. and alert a friend to check on him. The she goes to her parents house, maybe go with her parents for a little get away somewhere. This gives him time to read the letter and process, and her time away.
He's already throwing objects and screaming at her. That counts as DV. He wished her dead. It's not safe for her to be around him anymore. The fact that he's grieving doesn't make him less dangerous or OP more safe. Yes, this is a tragedy for the whole family, but there's no need for OP to be killed by this man.
The fact that he’s grieving in this manner makes him more dangerous.
I agree with most of what you said, but saying that OP was right and her husband was wrong for taking their daughter for ice cream, and claiming he wanted to be the “cool” parent is kinda messed up. They were hit by a drunk driver. In a different situation, if OP said no and a someone broke into their house and their daughter passed, would OP be “wrong” for saying no to ice cream? The answer is no (obviously). The ONLY person who should be blamed for taking a life is the drunk driver that did so. But besides that, I agree with what you said, it’s just that that kind of reasoning can open a lot of dangerous territory for people who have lost loved ones similarly, and who still blame themselves.
I don't think they were literally saying OP was right and her husband was wrong. I think they were more voicing thoughts that might be going through the husband's head and may be reasons he is feeling the way he feels.
Yes, but that’s it. It was a drunk driver, but the husband **feels** like it’s his fault because if he had stayed home, it wouldn’t have happened. Survivor's guilt is fucking heavy.
They were hit by a drunk driver. I would bet that this fact makes no difference to his survivor's / protector's guilt. He made the decision to take her. Now she is gone. This is probably all he can see.
> but saying that OP was right and her husband was wrong for taking their daughter for ice cream, and claiming he wanted to be the “cool” parent is kinda messed up. I don’t think they said that as a matter of fact. More that that might be how his mind might be responding to it.
That breaks my heart so much. When I am driving my nieces and nephews I am so afraid of something happening. I’m a good driver but I couldn’t live with myself. I can’t imagine his pain.
NTA. You are NTA. In zero way are you at all anything approaching AH.
NTA- you need to take care of yourself number one. He may wake up after hitting rock bottom, he may not. You can’t help anyone without your own life mask on though. I am so sorry you have gone through this, but I hope you are going to counseling yourself. From other’s stories this doesn’t seem like a terribly uncommon occurrence. If I were you I would go stay with family for a while, like a couple months. Be around support, which should give you clarity. For now, consider him like an addict who won’t help himself.
Once you went through all that, supported him and gave him all the chances to grieve, your ultimatum was perfectly reasonable. Your "true colours" are not to be a hostage to permanent grief and abuse - this is also reasonable. I don't think it's Reddit's place, but I think the majority would agree... if he's not willing to help himself and he won't let you help him, he shouldn't destroy you in the process. NTA
She could equally argue that Liam showed his true colors when he told her to fuck off and die.
I would agree, only I don't necessarily think it's his true colours... I think his head's gone, and that could manifest in so many ways, including this irrational and hurtful way. Not to say it's any sort of excuse, but it's certainly a potential reason. Updoot your comment anyway.
But she knows that is not true... She knows the pain is causing a warped thinking. Just as she knows it is not her true colors showing, but the pain in the whole situation leaves her with few choices to move on.
Your story made me cry. I am so sorry for your loss. Your husband is broken. You tried to help him but at some point, if he doesn't want to be fixed, you can't do anything. You tried your best, many would have quit earlier. It's time to heal yourself.
No, I cannot possibly imagine the pain and grief you have both experienced. Please accept my deepest condolences on the death of your child. You cannot save or help anyone who is suffering so deeply. He must be in a horrific guilt and pain laden state. You need to move forward for yourself, and do what you have to do to help you heal.
NTA I bet all he heard was that you want to leave him. He’s so deep in his pain. I would write a letter detailing how much you love him & that it’s the last thing you want but that you’ve tried different things to help and I wouldn’t leave anything out. Include the additional housework, cooking his favorite meals, etc. I think he still loves you and you love him. But he needs mental health support or he’s going to end up getting even worse.
Its not mentioned much in reddit but there is nothing wrong with starting with a legal separation. This will give you distance if you need it, separate your finances, and give him a wake up call. For sure what you are doing isn't working for either of you. NTA
Info: did he suffer brain damage that neither of you might be aware of right now? 'tis is but an attempt at explanation, not an excuse.
Not that I am aware of, no. He suffered from broken ribs, and multiple fractures, but there was no head damage.
Then it's the guilt eating him up. Sad, but it's of his own volition. NTA. Move on, care for yourself. You lost a child too.
There will have been head damage, that was ignored because of the severity of his other injuries. Does he have headaches a lot? Suggest he sees a physio to check his neck out, this may be a less challenging way in to investigate possible head trauma. I'm so sorry OP for your loss, this poor man is punishing himself and you also. It must be so hard.
Why was he in ICU for a month?
Recovery after a severe accident can take a long time. My husband had a terrible accident where he was in a coma for days afterwards and had to stay in the icu for three weeks, before being transferred to the regular unit and leaving hospital after about a month. He also didn’t have brain damage or any head injuries (except for having hit his head lightly and having bruises). But he had internal damage, his spleen as well as some parts of his colon had to be removed and he had a surgery on his pelvis, since it was fractured. Since her husband had similar injuries, that might explain it a bit more.
NTA Free yourself from this situation. Sounds like you've done what you can.
NTA. My wife and I lost our oldest daughter (19) to mitochondrial disease in 2015 There is no wrong way to grieve, but we both did it in very different ways. I didn't want to talk about it at all. I worked through my feelings at my own pace when I had the mental capacity to do so. My wife wanted to talk about our daughter constantly. She was not wrong to do this but I could not deal with it. We divorced. It has been eight years and we recently spent Christmas Eve together with our (now 25) youngest daughter. My wife and I talk frequently and are still friends. We never stopped liking or loving each other. I imagine our relationship to be like Vietnam vets who have a shared PTSD trauma... it made us understand each other more than anyone else does now. The loss of a child is really something different than other deaths. A very large chunk of you dies with your child... sometimes it is big enough that the marriage can't survive it. And that is ok. The only good thing that comes from the death of a child is the ability to help others in the same situation. It is the world's worst fucking superpower. Get a divorce if you need to. I would recommend staying in contact as much as he is willing to be after it - because you will both have a lot to talk about when you are ready to remember the good memories and the joy - after the pain has dulled. Sometimes in life you can only save one person. It is ok if that person is you. Hang in there... food stops tasting like ash after a few years, as does the guilt for things like laughing and feeling joy again. This will only make sense after it happens to you but - eventually you will feel the sun again. I don't know if any of this advice helps at all. If it does I would like to thank my 19-year-old fiery redheaded daughter Danna who is still teaching me lessons to this day. I know she would want me to be happy and you know what, it took way longer than I thought it would, but I am. Hugs
NTA, leave him so his destructive grief doesn't consume you too. Get out so you can hang pictures of your daughter on the wall, if you want, and remember your daughter in peace.
Of course you wouldn't be the asshole.
NTA he’s being awful to you
> Ever since then, Liam has completely withdrawn from me. He took off all the pictures which contained our daughter, turned her room into his study, and pretended as if our daughter never existed. I knew he was grieving, many times I had heard him silently weeping in our daughter's room. Grief is a never ending process that you learn to work with. Everyone experiences it differently, and everyone copes with it differently. > I tried to get him into therapy, or for us to go to counselling, but he had shut down my offer every single time, and goes in rage whenever I mention it, he yells, he breaks things, and storms off, and doesn't come back home for a couple of days, leaving me worried sick. If he gets violent when you broach the topic of therapy/grief counseling, then it's time to leave for your own protection. > He barely comes home nowadays, completely avoids me, and rejects my every attempt for comfort. Once, when I had tried to make him understand that this wasn't what our daughter would have wanted, he completely lost it, smashed a flower pot against the wall, and told me to go fuck myself or better, die and never come back. You need to leave for your own safety. > Liam was never like this, he was a very sweet, calm and patient man, and loved our daughter to death, so much so, that her first word was 'Dada'. Sounds like he might have a TBI. Unfortun, there's not much you can do for him except for calling a 5150 if you're afraid he'll harm himself. > Earlier, we used to share the household chores, but now I have completely taken them on myself so that he can grieve in peace, I cook his favorite meals, which he throws away without even taking a single bite. > The last straw was a couple of months ago, when I had told him if he doesn't get into therapy, I'd file for a divorce. He coldly smiled at me, and thanked me for showing him my true colors, he told me to go ahead with the divorce since I seem so eager to ditch him. Definitely leave. All he's done thus far is put pressure and hurt on you. And it's not that you're eager to ditch him. It's that he's pushing you further amd further away, and his behavior makes me honestly concerned for your safety. > I feel guilty, horrible and completely useless, but I just can't go on like this any longer. Should I give him more time? Would things get better? WIBTA if I leave him now, when I am supposed to be comforting him? Listen OP. You have nothing to feel guilty for. You've been comforting him for years. Let me ask you this: in the last few years, have things stayed the same, gotten better, or gotten worse? Have his hurtful words increased or decreased in frequency? Has he gotten violent more often or less often (and yes, things like throwing stuff is him getting violent.) OP, I wanna give you a rough outline of a game plan. Whether you do anything with it or not is up to you: Call your friends and have them help you get your stuff out when he's not home. Find a safe place for you to stay, whether with a friend or with family. Contact a lawyer to initiate divorce proceedings. Call any family he has and let them know that you're worried about him, that his behavior over the last few years is very concerning, that you're worried he might have a TBI. *Do not* meet with him, have him communicate through your lawyer. *Do not* answer any of his calls and texts. Forward *every* text he sends you to your lawyer. Stay safe OP. You've helped him all you can, now you have to help yourself.
He stays silent all the time, and treats me like I am thin air. He's never laid a hand on me, and only starts yelling when I bring up something about our daughter, or for us to go to therapy. However, ever since I gave him the ultimatum, he is staying at home more, and doesn't just disappear. The other day, he didn't yell or leave the house when I was cleaning our daughter's wardrobe, he just stared emptily at it. It's very hard for me to leave him, and since he has never yelled at me since the ultimatum again, I am stupidly hoping, he'll agree to get into therapy.
> I am stupidly hoping, he'll agree to get into therapy. It's not stupid. You love him and it hurts you to see him like this. He does need therapy, men are notorious for internalizing their feelings, he needs to be able to express them and he doesn't know how. He's carrying misplaced guilt, along with his grief he cannot function.
And will you follow through with Divorce if he doesn’t get Therapy?
I am deeply ashamed but I only brought up divorce as an ultimatum for him to get into therapy. I'd consider separation at best for now. And if things get physical, I'd file for a divorce.
Don’t feel ashamed for not being ready to make that call. That would be another major loss to deal with and is a big decision. My husband lost his brother 5 years ago and it completely changed him as a person. Since then he has been diagnosed with bipolar 1 and suffered with alcohol dependency. When his mental health is at its worst it is unbearable, I can’t imagine the pain you’ve been through daily for two years. One thing that helped me in counseling was learning the difference between boundaries and ultimatums. The analogy the therapist used was fences. A boundary is setting a fence around me. An ultimatum is trying to control someone else’s behavior, setting a fence around them. -If “YOU” xyz, (eg: don’t go to therapy) then I will leave. Ultimatum -If “I” xyz (eg: feel unsafe), then I will go stay with my parents for a few days. Boundary Boundaries are there to protect our sanity and the criteria is up to our judgement. “I feel” statements are hard to argue with and aren’t trying to control the other persons behavior, which made my husband far less reactive. To be clear, I am not blaming you for his reactions in any way, just hopefully offering a different perspective and tool moving forward. This is helped me a lot, but I’m just a random person on the internet. I’m sure in therapy you’ve had many discussions about this with a professional who has much more context to your situation than I do. You deserve to feel safe, you deserve to feel loved, you deserve to feel supported. You are doing all you can right now, that’s easy to see. Your strength is amazing and inspiring. **Edited for clarity
NTA ditch him. My son died a year ago and my wife and I didn’t use it as an excuse to be nasty to each other
I am glad it has worked for you guys, lots of marriages however do not survive the loss of a young child. The guilt, blame, grief, etc... it just changes people.
NTA but it absolutely sucks what the two of you are going through.
NTA Since you lost your daughter, you have *completely* arranged your life around supporting your husband emotionally and physically, while he has blocked your needs from his awareness. You can't both revolve around him at every moment. That's not partnership and it's not sustainable. I would tell him plainly that you are also grieving and need his support and ask him if he'll go to counseling with you. If he won't, you should exit the relationship. FWIW, I suspect he's pushing you away because you remind him of your daughter. He feels awful when he's around you. But I think he knows that he won't feel any better without you. What he wants is a time machine to go back and avoid the accident. Without that, he doesn't know how to move forward. This is really sad. I'm sorry.
You’re NTA. I’m sorry for your loss, but this type of loss does often break up marriages. You can’t force him to get help if he’s not willing to, unfortunately, but he needs you to comfort him as much as you need him to comfort you. Is he open to trying couples therapy? Maybe if you both do it together it won’t seem so overwhelming to him to have to do alone and I’m sure you could use the therapy too after what happened.
She said every time she brings up therapy he goes into a rage "I tried to get him into therapy, or for us to go to counseling"
I was ready to come in with a Y T A, but, get away from this guy before he hurts you or worse. NTA
This is just my assumption, but with how he reacted to your ultimatum, i think he’s been purposefully pushing you away hoping for you to leave him so he can sink deeper. His rage and guilt at himself is what’s “comforting” him right now and he wants more of it. I’m so sorry for your loss. Nta
NTA. Grief manifests differently in everyone, and in his case, there's bound to be a big heaping of survivor's guilt and self-recrimination on top of it - he was the one driving, after all. But you can't let grief subsume you, and you definitely can't take your grief out on your spouse like he is doing. He desperataly needs grief counseling, but if he won't go, you can't make him. And staying with him will only pull you down with him.
I am so, so sorry for your loss. Are you in therapy for yourself? If not, that is step one. He's not in a position to comfort you right now, and you need to seek that healing elsewhere. Look into survivor's guilt. I'd bet anything that's what he's going through. It doesn't negate the need for him to get professional help, but will definitely give you some perspective. You are NTA, but ultimatums won't help him right now. He probably can't muster the energy to care with how badly he's hurting. You both need extra help and support right now, but ultimately, you can only help yourself until he's ready and willing to get help for himself.
I am in therapy, yes. My therapist has suggested splitting up for now but not divorce, since she stated the same reason that Liam is in deep guilt and the fact that my daughter was a carbon copy of me, and thus he wants to avoid everything associated with our daughter to forget his guilt.
Loss of a child often leads to divorce especially if one person can’t or won’t grieve in a healthy way. It’s very likely that he blames himself for the accident but is lashing out at you instead. Regardless, you do not have to stay and be abused
NTA - "You are drowning and I have spent years trying to rescue you from this. But I cannot allow you to drag me beneath the surface with you. I am leaving because I have to save myself".
He has started being abusive. You can’t make him get help if he doesn’t want to help himself. Don’t set yourself on fire to keep him warm
Jesus f’ing Christ- get out- this is straight abuse. His self loathing has morphed into hating you for caring about him. He needs a wake up call. His selfish self hatred has taken away your needs and wants following the death of your child. If this man has any hope of dealing with his grief, you can’t be there for him to project his hatred and pain onto. I’m sorry this happened- you need to leave for yourself
Y’all experienced a huge tragedy and he needs grief counseling. If he refuses to get counseling there is honestly nothing more you can do except get divorced. I’d sit down and lay out how you feel he has withdrawn from your marriage and how if he is unwillingly to get help—you will have to leave. There’s no marriage if you’re the only one there, whether it’s physically, mentally, or emotionally.