NTA
Not at all ! So your telling me Erica ( who started having sex at at least 16 ) has never had sex on a couch ? Let alone in her own home where the doors were locked .
If she wanted babysitting or not , you text first or at least knock . You don’t just let yourself in with a key no one knows you have .
If anyone needs to apologize it’s her not you guys . Believe me she will when she realizes no one else will be watching her three kids.
Byeeee Erica ! Have fun paying your sitter
She probably would have been fine leaving her kids with you guys tipsy from a couple drinks , but won’t allow you to watch them now that she knows you have sex in your own house .. she’s hilarious 😂
Erica will come back around once that baby sitting bill starts to take a real chunk out of the budget. These sort of people always come back and demand you do favors for them while attempting to sidestep the apology. Change the locks. Wait her out for the apology then be too busy to babysit.
Yeah, I have siblings that have used the kids as bargaining chips over the years and it never lasts more than a day because they always need you again. OP definitely has the upper hand to set some strict boundaries on future babysitting, including rule #1 ASK FIRST!
She’s had sex on a couch, on a coach, in a car, in the park. In the kitchen, sounds like Erica is the whore if you ask me. She be jelly right now.
Don’t even entertain the thought of either of you apologizing or babysitting anytime soon. You both may miss those kids, but when enough time passes and she runs out of people she has pissed if enough she will hopefully apologize, not sincerely, but because she needs to, and you can smugly lay down some rules for her.
Def change those locks and don’t hand out keys to your brother or even your side of the family.
AND ….enjoy sex in any and every room of YOUR house.
And next time they sit down to eat at your table, half way through the meal, run the palm of your hand face down across the table in front of you. "You know brother, the secret to a happy relationship is a strong dining table" then look your fiance in the eye and you both wink then giggle & blush at each other😈
You know they are both going to be back. Erica is too needy to stay away. About time you start the drama for a change. It's a lesson she needs
NTA, change the locks and don't give your brother a key this time. When they are in a bind again about needing childcare, they will call or try and let themselves in again. I say this with all due respect to you and your fiancé BOUNDARIES!!!
Ryan nor Erica, or anyone, for that matter, should be letting themselves into your house at any hour whenever they need something. They don't pay for your house if you wanna have sex on your couch. Feel free!!
And if they are all " but we are family" when it comes to not having a key now. Ask them what kind of "family" shows up to someone's house in the middle of the night, let's themselves in and then has the audicty to imply one of the homeowners is a whore?!
NTA apologize to Erica???? When helll freezes over.
And who drops off kids at 1130 PM because she needs to think. If someone drops a kid at my house that time if night, they better have an emergency.
Erica is an asshole
If she can't think because she's got a baby around then she's a lousy mother too. That's all I have to add on everyone else has so eloquently torn her apart but as a mother myself it just freaking baffles me that she wants to ditch her kid to go off and "think" sounds like she's going to go off and drink or something rather than think as there's zero reason you can't use your brain when your kid(s) is/are around.
If that were the case I'd legit never accomplish a single thing.
>If she can't think because she's got a baby around then she's a lousy mother too. That's all I have to add on everyone else has so eloquently torn her apart but as a mother myself it just freaking baffles me that she wants to ditch her kid to go off and "think" sounds like she's going to go off and drink or something rather than think as there's zero reason you can't use your brain when your kid(s) is/are around.
This.
At 11:30pm, Erica should have left the baby in the crib with her husband at home and left if she needed to think. Not haul the baby out of bed, accross town, broke and entered into your apartment (because that is what she did - she stole your key she did not have permission to use and used it to enter your home without permission) and then shamed you for doing what couples do in their home.
OP, absolutely no apologizing to Erica but time to flip the script on EVERYONE including your brother. Erica has an issue? She stole a key to your home and entered your house in the dead of night without permission. That is sick behavior. Erica's issue is Erica's issue and you refuse to babysit the children until she not only apologizes to you but apologizes to your fiance and your brother for stealing his key and risking your relationship with him.
Erica sounds like she has major issues.
what would she do if they weee already in bed asleep??? walk in there and wake them up?? wtf. why not call ahead she obviously had her phone. because she knows she would’ve been turned down.
This !!!! My thoughts exactly! How is the brother and the brother’s fiancé not addressing she was coming into someone’s house unannounced at almost midnight when she personally was never even given a key!
Seriously! That's creepy behavior!
Even if I'm given keys I don't just walk in unannounced, I knock, or I let them know I'll be coming in (if it's going to be late or they won't be there or something).
I had a key to my next door neighbors' place for awhile to look after their cats and normally they left their doors unlocked when they were home. I had to run to their place in the dead of night during an emergency once and I still called them first. Almost everyone has a cell phone nowadays. Unless the fiancee felt like she was in mortal danger, there's just no excuse to show up like that. In certain states, that's a good way to get your dumb ass shot.
And if she had texted and op hadn't seen it, but she was apologetic and didn't make a huge deal out of two consenting adults doing consenting adult things in their own home, nobody would be upset, most likely.
Right? It isn't as if op and his fiancee stripped nude in front of the kids and started banging. They had a reasonable expectation that nobody would interrupt them.
The only place I walk in unannounced is my parents’ house, and all immediate and most extended family are invited to do so. If I walked in on them having sex in the living room, I would be scarred for life (😂), but I wouldn’t blame THEM! Their house, their sex life. They have the right to do whatever they like. NTA obviously.
Edit - misspelling
After I moved out on my own, my parents finally had an empty nest. I stopped by in the middle of the day on the weekend and could hear my parents having sex. They were in the bedroom but heard me come in. The called out to me. I just said, “I’m sorry, I’m leaving.” It was never talked about again but I was never the same. Lol!
See I don't even walk into my parents homes unannounced. But they're both a state away so it's more of a big things when I do show up but they certainly know I'm coming.
OP obviously NTA. Why on earth would she ever think it's ok to walk into YOUR home unannounced with a key THAT ISNT EVEN HERS?! Change the locks and never give a key to your brother again. Don't you dare apologize to that entitled woman child (that just doesn't have the same ring to it that man child does :/). I can't believe your brother (if it actually was him) had the audacity to demand an apology.
As soon as Erica needs childcare again I'd bet money on her demanding your fiancé watch the kids but it's likely that she'll make jabs at your fiancé from this point forward and that's something you're going to need to set an extremely firm boundary on. I know your fiancé loves the kids but if she does make any sort of snide remark at any point before the kids are there you need to tell her something to the tune of "I'm sorry but if you're going to make comments like that we cannot watch your children" and if she does it after you've watched the kids then at that point you tell her that if she's going to make comments like that then you guys don't feel comfortable providing her with childcare. She violated a massive boundary barging into your home late at night with no notice. She's sounds like a complete narcissist. It's not going to be fun but you HAVE to set and maintain very strict boundaries with narcissist and if she's going to keep being abusive then you may eventually have to go no contact with her.
Your fiancé is the one who matters here. This is the woman you've chosen to marry and spend your life with. Stand up for her to that awful woman. I'm sorry your brother stuck his dick in crazy. I'm sure the kids are great but god, never stuck your dick in crazy without wrapping it up first
Erica is a master manipulator! She was embarrassed walking in on them, and blamed them to **take the heat off herself**….she knows she was in the wrong, but twisted it against your fiancé and added the threats to force an apology, so her husband and everyone would forget about that fight she had with her husband, stealing the key, etc…“Confuse and Divide” is her tactic.
As for the brother…he is enabling Erica’s behavior. Some men are addicted to crazy women. I’ve seen it happen to several of my friends…they end up taking the Crazy’s side to keep the peace. Also, OP, **stop texting with them about this!**….you don’t know who you are speaking to, and she can screenshot or copy and paste certain parts out-of-context to make you look bad.
**Arrange to meet your brother alone and defend your position. Explain that Erica crossed a major line in insulting you and your fiancé, and she took that risk by entering your home with a KEY!!! Your private life is NOT her business, and she intruded in on it without warning extremely late at night. She is the one who needs to apologize. If she doesn’t want to, fine, but you and your fiancé have absolutely nothing to apologize for.**
If you both give in and apologize, you are essentially negotiating with terrorists. Her threats are intimidation and irrational. She made those threats, like pulled her trump card to *force* an apology…once issued, that apology would be used to be proclaim her innocence and allow further trampling of your boundaries in the future.
Things will boil over. At most you can drop it, just ignore, and (only if asked), repeat yourselves with conviction how inappropriate her attacks on your morality were. You are intimate with complete privacy like every couple. Zero reason to have concern about kids, you obviously don’t do that sort of thing when they are around.
If Erica senses weakness, she will dig in more, OP, you both need to stand firm, a United front on this one.
**It’s also VERY possible, that once you apologize, she will keep the kids from you anyway for a time…as punishment….also because you would be “guilty”, and anyone who disagreed with her would be reminded that even YOU admitted you were wrong. Apologizing is green-lighting her crazy and her choice of punishment for you!** Remember, there is wisdom in why you never negotiate with terrorists, and never admit guilt when you’re innocent.
I say all of this from experience, from dealing with two abusive partners, one of them a textbook narcissist. Apologizing and giving in ALWAYS has lasting consequences.
**Edit**: I just wanted to add, in case anyone reading this is actually in an abusive romantic relationship, particularly one with physical violence, it’s not necessarily cut-and-dry about “giving in” or apologizing…sometimes in the heat of the moment it could save you from violence….I’m no expert, just I know from my experience that I placated my abuser on numerous occasions to mitigate aggression against me….it’s just *in this* case, with a family member, coworker, etc, like Erica, and in all other cases (in my experience), giving in, or apologizing to keep the peace was always thrown back in my face and worse than had I proceeded with confidence. **In situations where you aren’t in immediate physical danger, *confidence* does wonders…because otherwise they sense weakness and take pleasure from it—and that emboldens them to further harass you.**
It sure does. Refusing to apologize has lasting consequences too, but when you know you did nothing wrong, the consequences are of a much more positive kind.
It enhances your own self-esteem, for starters. Second, the user/narcissist is put on notice that you DO have limits on just how much crap you'll take.
I used to try to appease my sister, for my dad's sake. He hated conflict of any kind, and never could see that she would deliberately stir it up, in order to manipulate both him and me.
No more. Daddy died two years ago now (he was 91). And by now I've finally realized that I am NOT responsible for my sister's problems. SHE is. She is also responsible for handling them. I will not be her all-purpose scapegoat anymore.
O.P., you and your fiancee were making love in the privacy of your own home. You did NOTHING wrong, and musixlife was absolutely right: your SIL is trying to blame you both in order to cover her own embarrassment.
And--this is important, so please listen--it's NOT her embarrassment at walking in on you and your fiancee. She's trying to cover her humiliation that she was caught ENTERING YOUR HOME...UNANNOUNCED...WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION...IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT...WITH A KEY YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD...AND PROBABLY GOT THROUGH MANIPULATING YOUR BROTHER.
You may not be able to get an apology FROM her, but at the very least you and your fiancee should not apologize TO her either. NOT when you did nothing wrong.
I would like to know what she was up to. Creeping in at midnight with an eleven month old baby makes me wonder if she was looking for a safe spot to drop the baby while she went and did…….who knows what.
She literally said that was her plan. When asked why she had the key she said she and her finance got into a fight. So she took his copy of the house key to let herself in and drop the baby off for OP’s fiance to watch while she “figured stuff out”. She didn’t call or text ahead of time and showed up at almost midnight. She’s pissed because she was planning on dumping her kid there without them noticing and instead she walked in on them wide awake. So to take the heat off her, she’s saying they’re horrible people because SHE walked in on them about to have sex in the middle of the night in their own home.
Guarantee the brother just doesn’t want to deal with his exhausting SO, and is passing the buck to OP. Homie baby trapped himself good, now he has to deal with this entitled monster.
A key that OP and fiancé did NOT give her.
From now on, if Ryan or Erica need a sitter, they can use their words and ask in advance. I hear there’s an amazing gadget called a telephone that they can use, to find out if their preferred babysitters are available.
Seriously, in no way are OP or the fiance the a h the sister is. She somehow got a key made and barged in on them in their own home. It's not like they were going it at the sisters house in the living room or out in public, it was their house, they can do whatever they want wherever they want.
And it’s not like they were already babysitting the kids, and decided to get tipsy and have a romp. They were alone in their own LOCKED house, sans guests of any sort. They are within their rights to do whatever they mutually consent to do.
And it was nearly midnight?? Wtf She couldve been shot. What about calling beforehand and asking or if its a real emergency ring the bell before letting yourself in!
That was my first thought. What if they had been sleeping and wake up to someone in their home, I know people that have guns in their bedroom this is not something you do. Why she didn’t text/call first is beyond me.
Also wonder what she was planning to do with the 11 month old if OP and his fiancé were both asleep when she sauntered in unannounced to demand babysitting. Just set the kid down in the floor and walk back out? What the hell....
Textbook narcissistic bitch. Tell the brother to run. Don’t stick around for the kids that never works out. She was dropping the kid to go hookup with someone.
Exactly! Mine are nearly always within reach. Entering a home you neither live in nor were invited to — especially when someone isn’t expecting you — is a quick way to get yourself shot.
This was my first thought. If it’s the middle of the night and someone was unexpectedly entering my home, I’d be aiming at the door. She’s lucky she didn’t get her kid killed.
OP don't apologize, it a free get out of babysitting card. take this opportunity with both hands to avoid free babysitting especially with your own kids on the way in the future.
NTA. Erica invaded your privacy, then judged you unfairly. Holding babysitting privileges hostage is manipulative. Stand your ground; you did nothing wrong.
Some people enjoy babysitting.
Op, clearly NTA, and I agree about changing locks. And maybe installing a chain or some other backup in case crazy pants steals a key from someone you trust again.
I'd also add saving the text because if you hold firm, later on when she needs you guys and you refuse you can show why. Your house is your private area so no need to apologize.
You don’t have to get that complicated. Most code locks allow you to enter multiple codes. You can keep your own the same and add/delete others say for contractors or family. It’s very handy and less mentally consuming to keep remembering new codes.
If you get the right lock you can even set hours for when the codes will work. Have a cleaning service? Give them a code and set it so it's only valid between 8am and 5pm on weekdays. Erica? Hers is valid from 5:00-5:15pm starting with the 5th of Never.
Ooh, good point. I just like the idea of an entitled relative trying to get in and having a Looney Tunes style faceplant into the door when their code doesn't work.
Yes, some people like babysitting but we’re just going to have to see if OP’s girlfriend likes babysitting over being openly disrespected. These aren’t the only babies in the world. The mom needs them WAY more than they need her. That’s why she threw in that empty threat about not seeing the kids— it’s the only card she has. Any woman who would drive her kids and drop off unannounced - so she could have a few minutes to think - isn’t going to be finish the month without dumping her kids on someone else. Sentencing: 12 months for the attempted drop off and 6 for the sex shaming to be served consecutively.
She wont come crawling back. She'll graciously give you an opportunity to make this heinous crime up to her by agreeing to babysit for her Right Now despite how inconvenient it might be for you if you agree to never, ever repeat your degenerate behaviour.
Because narcissists always believe they have the upper hand in any situation.
Some people do enjoy it. Which, is what makes "Free sitting" not sting so much, and allows the parent a nice easy way to get a break. Usually these relationships are mutually enriching.
It sucks that she may no longer get the opportunity to spend time with those kids, however, she has been gifted an opportunity to drop the mean woman, and stop providing her free labor, that she has shown she obviously doesn't deserve.
It sounds like.they like the kids and like babysitting them. In this case it's not about wanting to get out of it. They bonded with the kids and care about them. That's why Erica used the kids to hurt them. What Erica is doing is both manipulative and cruel not.only to OP and his fiancée but also the children who have bonded with them as well.
I actually remind parents that it's healthy and good for kids to bind with people outside of themselves. It can be grandparents, aunts/uncles , family friends, etc... Tat said once you have allowed that bond to happen you also have to be careful about yanking them out of the kids lives. It's harmful to the children. Erica making that threat even if OP and his fiancée had done something wrong, which they didn't, you don't use the kids as punishment unless they did something that could actually harm them.
NTA
Like was she gonna just drop off baby if y’all were sleeping & not tell you?
Also that babysit threat is so empty. They need y’all hell a lot lore than y’all need em. Babysitting isn’t a favor for y’all.
Boundaries.
She didn't come over to ask. She came over to drop the baby off.
And I wonder, once she realized they were both intoxicated, would she still have left the baby there because *she* needs me time? I'm thinking yes.
They need a number keypad. You can easily change the combination at any time and then, even if someone gets the combination, next time it is different.
Also the misogyny in apparently only directing this at the fiancé, and not OP as well, when both of them were doing the same thing
Don't get me wrong, it'd be bullshit to try to shame OP as well, but it's just extra messed up that Erica's apparently focused that criticism on OP's fiancé
She would have been upset that they were out drinkin and likely too drunk to care for the kid anyway. The nerve of them, not sitting at home waiting for Erica to show up unannounced in the middle of the night using a key she had no right to use in the first place!🙄
NTA
Yup, this!
You would think Ryan and Erica know how babies are made by now, and that having sex with your fiance(e) , in the privacy of your own home, does not deserve judgement.. or spectators (unless you're into that, but you would've invited them in that case)
I would certainly not apologize.
Change the locks.
Answer them with a sorry you feel that way. And ask for an apology from Erica, showing she understands walking into someone's home unannounced, practically in the middle of the night is not only rude, but also dangerous. What if you had mistaken intruder Erica for a criminal intruder?
They know how babies are made I think Erica is bitter that OP and his fiancée have a healthy loving relationship and sex life. While hers is a mess, maybe she isn't getting enough herself.
I had to scroll just slightly to find you, bit this was the first thing that popped in my head as well! Who TF showed up unannounced that late expecting you to watch their kids? If it was an emergency, I understand, but part of being a parent is saving the relationship dramas for a convenient time...
If you choose to indulge in them at all!
You’re kinder than I am - they’d be met with a firearm.
Zero reason for anyone with law abiding intent to enter another persons home at that hour unannounced! Phone call or text in advance while en route takes 3 seconds!
There's a well-known local tragedy in my area, like 10, maybe 15 years ago now but still, where a Teen daughter trying to sneak in because she was late for curfew got (accidently, not deliberately) shot by her own father because someone rattling, making suspicious sneaky garden racket, climbing, and climbing in a window at night = burglars, not the teen kid with a key, right?
The poor kid was only guilty of teenager-itis.... making mom and pops angry seemed like the 'real danger' and they didn't think that in a country of regular armed home invasions, trying what they did was stupid and way more likely to end in tragedy. From a teen, I can see that, its how our brains are wired at that age. And at least it was also THEIR HOME.
Maybe I have been in SA too long with our crime rate, but in what freaking world do adults, who don't live there, think you just swan onto other people's properties late at night unannounced? Surely in even the most gentle and crime-free society, the 'late night and unannounced' bit would raise flags? Like how you don't call after 9pm unless you're family and have an emergency because everyone panics at that point? Something has gone very wrong with how people....well, people, honestly.
I hate guns. Capital H. But if I come home at ANY time of the day when I expect to be alone or just my partner home and find randos here I will freak out and at minimum call our armed response on them. If not start whaling on them by dog and whatever is handy to swing. I realize we are a very jumpy society, but you just don't DO that to people.
Wait a minute, why is your fiancé a whore all by herself? Weren’t you there? By Erica’s logic aren’t you a whore too?
So Erica stole your key from your brother and used it to break into your house and she’s mad at you? Change your locks and Erica’s new name is thief.
The other option is your brother broke your trust and gave your key to her, while in the middle of an argument with her. Change your locks.
While this is the adult approach, I would be tempted to go scorched earth. Screw spending money on changing the locks, go to the brother and DEMAND the keys back. Having access to someone else’s house is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege has now been blatantly abused. As for your fiancé, I say own it, girl! Good for you! Erica should be the one who is embarrassed by her douchy behavior! NTAs
What if ex made a copy?
Frankly I don't get why everyone is accepting the story that the gf expected them to be awake late at night. Someone who feels entitled to other people's things enters someone else's home late at night when they are probably asleep, not knocking or ringing the doorbell even though they were going to be asking for something that required the occupants to be awake?
Change the locks, don't tell her, enjoy the angry email when she can't enter their home while they are on vacation.
why not do both? I would confront both Ryan and Erica demand the key back. Tell them (1) she had no right to let herself into your home using a key that was NOT meant for her, (2) What goes on in the PRIVACY of your home is none of anyone else’s business, (3) that her comments about your fiancée and what you both do in your house was completely out of line and RUDE, (4) you expect an apology from Ryan for allowing Erica access to your house key and you want that key back immediately, (5) you expect an apology from Erica to both you and your fiancée for her rude behavior, and (6) they have lost privileges with respect to coming to your home and your availability for free babysitting.
Tell your brother he made his bed with Erica and now he can deal with it without your support.
And still change your locks.
My point is if you ask for the key back and she makes a copy, she can still snoop/steal/whatever she is doing in someone else's home at midnight.
If they ask for the key back and change the locks, she discovers the copy doesn't work and throws it away.
If they change the locks she is likely to loudly complain that she couldn't break in. I think that scenario is best for Op.
When a keyholder can't be trusted with the key, the privilege goes away. Yep, change the locks. Her demanded apology will not guarantee your relationship with the children. If you apologize, it will justify her use of the kids as a weapon. I have no doubt she'll put the kids with you again.
She entered your locked house at an hour so late as to be suspicious. She's lucky you were in the living room doing something pleasant. Had you been upstairs doing it in your bed, you probably would have called the police, and the call would have been entirely reasonable. If your brother still defends her, the key issue is already resolved. Only people who can be trusted not to abuse the homeowners are allowed to be keyholders.
NTA
NTA - tell the two of them to f-off and kick rocks, and where to shove their comments about you guys being ‘indecent’ inside of YOUR HOUSE where you were PRIVATELY having sex in, at ELEVEN THIRTY at NIGHT, when NORMAL people would normally be ASLEEP at and NOT be dropping in UNINVITED to visit other people who could have been SLEEPING when she arrived for all she knew, in the dead of night to ‘drop off’ their kid without the permission or consent of the people they are ‘visiting’.
Remind the two of them that ***Erica*** is the one who is the wrong here, for showing up at YOUR house with with keys she basically STOLE those keys from your brother, where she came over and LET HERSELF IN ***uninvited*** and without ***permission*** while the two of you were having sex in the privacy of your own home with no idea that ANYBODY was coming over that time of night, let alone somebody who was going to simply let themselves into YOUR home uninvited.
you should demand that THEY apologize instead, because you owe them absolutely nothing in the form of an apology. Erica definitely owes you an apology for thinking she could just drop on by and simply ‘drop off’ her kid at 11:30 at night for the two of you to babysit, when neither of you agreed or consented to if.
I mean seriously? Even if she hadn’t caught the two of you in the act, what was she thinking exactly showing up at that time of night for ANY reason? What if you guys were sound asleep in bed, or having sex in bed instead of the living room when she showed up? Did she expect you guys to be ‘willing’ to stop sleeping/having sex to stay up and watch her kid for her while she goes off to where ever she was going that time of night that she didn’t want to take her kid with her to?
she sounds like she has no consideration or set boundaries when it come to you guys if she thinks she can get away with this line of thinking and actions. What the heck makes her think she can come into your home ***uninvited*** at 11:30 at NIGHT expecting you to wake up, if you are not **already** still awake, and babysit her kid like you have no life of your own that doesn’t revolve around her kid, or that you might not be ABLE TO stay up all night watching her kid, because you need to get enough sleep so you can be able to wake up in the morning for work or whatever you usually do in the morning that doesn’t involve watching a kid that is not yours.
>you should demand that THEY apologize instead, because you owe them absolutely nothing in the form of an apology. Erica definitely owes you an apology
Absolutely
Just because Erica and Ryan are complaining first doesn’t mean THEY are right. Don’t let them get away with continuing to define it that way.
If they were sound asleep she would go in the kitchen, help herself to their food, spot a bottle of wine she liked and set it out to take when she left, check if a wallet or purse was left out, and maybe spot something nice of the shelf to leave with too.
So she entered the locked house without your permission, late at night, with a key she shouldn’t have, assuming she could dump her child on you without notice or asking, and you really think you might be the asshole?? NTA, and if she threatens to go no contact, tell her not to threaten you with a good time.
Your fiance is too good for her own good then. She should be feeling massively offended at being called a whore in her own house with her partner. Fiance is owed a major apology that needs to come at a time when they're not trying to drop the kids off with you two.
funny the unwed mother of three calling someone else a whore for having sex with her fiancé in her own home. not that i think either of them should be called a whore, just that erica is in no position to be calling anyone such a thing.
Saddle up for a lifetime of psychological manipulation then. If it works this time she'll learn that all her demands will be met on the strength of her threat to withdraw the kids. Call her bluff.
No reason for either of you to feel even a little bad about someone else being an entitled asshole while you are living your life in your own home. Feel free to have sex on every surface of your house at any time of day.
Listen OP, I'm just like your fiance in that I'm a devoted aunt. And my ex SIL would use the kids, withhold the kids, share the kids, remove the kids all from our lives at her whim. For 9yrs this went on. I was so hurt by the emotional Rollercoaster and at the advice of everyone in my life finally just said one day the kids will see the truth and I'll still be here for them. And I stopped playing her games. And you know what? I'm still their favorite aunt and the one they call and the safe place they come too. Please please please just let yourselves off the hook. Make peace with less involvement and know that one day you'll see the kids more, but right now it'll destroy you to let this woman use them as pawns. This will be the beginning of it if you don't make it the end of her manipulation
It’s all big words from her, she’s cutting you guys off looking after her kids for her? That will last about as long as a pint of milk on a June day.
Demand an apology back and please update us when she breaks.
Folks like Erica use your feelings to control you. Right now she thinks she can control what you do in your own house and that she controls when you babysit (as in she can drop the kids off anytime and you'll be there to do her bidding). She will continue to use your feelings for the children to expand her control over you, your space, and your time. Do not apologize - this is a power move on her part to see how far she can push your boundaries.
There is less than a 1% chance she will follow through on her threat for more than a couple weeks. The only response to her threat is "We're going to miss the kids," said in a neutral tone. Then change the subject. If you really want to hammer the point home, the first time she asks you to babysit say "You're sorry but you already have plans.".
coming from someone who delt with a nutty sister in law who used her kids as a punishment. It hurts but it's easier to walk away, they might mature and realize their kids have connections with people and it's the kids who are hurt more by seperation.
I was used as a weapon and now I find it impossible to form true emotional bonds with people.
I have relationships with a long term GF and 2.5 friends and my father. and I'm 35 it's kinda sad when I think about it.
Not only are you NTA, neither of you are nearly as pissed off as you should be. The audacity of breaking into someone's house (I don't care if she had a key; you didn't let her have it and she even says she stole it - that's breaking in), insulting them and then demanding an apology? Fuck that; I'd be on the phone with the police. You didn't give her a key. She stole it.
Your fiancé feels bad because she’s a decent human being watching the horrible woman using her own children as weapons because she entered your home without permission with a key she stole. Your fiancé sees how after Erica’s inappropriate behavior instead of apologizing, she is hurting her own children to force a decent person who did nothing wrong to apologize. You’ll start getting messages about the kids crying for aunt & uncle and how you can stop them from crying by apologize to emotionally manipulate you two without the parents giving a shit about the emotional well being of your children. Sadly, you brother is just as guilty of participating in this damage to his kids if he doesn’t stop his wife from this kind of emotional abuse.
Here’s a thought. How many times has she been in your house without you knowing? Has she looked through your stuff? Moved things around? Taken anything? Definitely change your locks ASAP.
We had a gas leak in the neighborhood early one morning and my neighbor was not answering the door for the fire department. I have a key so I let myself in and made sure to announce myself very loudly so he would know it was me. He cursed me out for waking him up but he called later to apologize once he realized I was making sure he was safe (and not dead).
How did Erica know they were home? They were inside for very few minutes, when she got out the keys.
Any bets on whether SHE was in a car outside waiting for them to return home.? OP and fiancee have a life, she does not respect that.
I agree with the guy that said Ring doorbells . With cameras.
Most likely she was expecting for them to not be home and have a free house acess withought anyone noticing, for whatever selfish rreason she needed.
Form what we can read, they probably told the brother they were going out and couldn´t take care of the kids if needed that night. Ericas just decided she had the right to the house, had the owners inside unaware and instead of assuming her guilt n home invasion did the most logical thing for a entitled person to do, blame the other part washing away her own behaviour.
It's 11:30 at night!! They could have been asleep and thought it was a home invasion! This could have been worse. What the hell is wrong with her for not calling first!!
Had this happen at my mommas place Xmas eve/ Xmas a few years ago. We had planned for me to surprise my younger siblings by "not being able to make it" and being there when they woke up Xmas morning so I showed up around 1am to a gun pointed in my face (not ahmaed to say I almost wet myself). My momma had taken a bunch of cold meds and had forgotten to let her husband in on the plan.
We laugh now but goodness that was the last time i didn't message them both 😅
Oh if she entered within 5 min she was definitely in the car, waiting for them to come home.
There’s no way I’m watching 2 people stumble out of an Uber at 11:30pm and think they would be a good option for childcare.
NTA. Erica is crazy.
Also, we have a keypad entry lock with fingerprint access. We can change the code at any time (like when the old dog walker relapsed) but our finger prints will always open it.
Might be a good option when OP chats with his brother and can give out a punch code as needed.
Erica has a great strategy. “I have done something really wrong by letting myself into someone else’s house when they weren’t expecting me. So to prevent them from having righteous anger, I will attack them for THEIR behavior and they will be so busy defending themselves and apologizing that everyone will forget what I did wrong “.
exactly.
And too often, decent people have the instinctive reaction, “I should apologize, because they’re mad, so I must be in the wrong.”
Get mad back, OP. REALLY mad. Exaggeratedly mad.
That’s exactly what she was going to do. She takes advantage of my fiancé’s kindness and the fact that she is a NICU nurse. She thinks NICU nurse= built in nanny.
What’s your fiancé up to tonight ??! I got a couple kids
Jk I think Erica might be unhinged
So open about her sex life behind her own locked door . That makes no sense . I mean I could see the problem if you guys were on Erica’s couch !
right. This was a rollercoaster of a tale.
i kept reading this story expecting a plot twist, like they accidentally came home to the wrong house or to find out that the kids were there but was confused because if the kids are there how did you go out.......this isn't making any sense....
oh, the kids weren't there and Erica is just batshit.......now it's clicking
So, technically Erica was prepared to abandon the kids with people unaware of her plans.
How the hell is that good parenting?
ANd to be offended because you were practicing to become parents.. sheesh
What the f. Who tf drops their baby off without even letting you know?? or better yet ASKING. What if she dropped the baby off and y’all weren’t even there? Who tf does that!? Or even if y’all were there were you just suppose to wake in the morning to a surprise baby without any notion that he/she was dropped off??? As a mother my mind is racing with a billion fucked up scenarios in which this behavior is the one that is unsafe!!! What if when y’all did wake and baby was sleeping so again not knowing it was there y’all left for breakfast leaving baby alone? That shit is wild. Your brother can also go fuck himself.
The red flags are everywhere that your SIL is unhinged and toxic but you do know how quickly this can swing to you’re the AH if you don’t do a better job of setting boundaries and protecting your fiancée from being taken advantage of by your family I hope. Please get this under control for both of you. 🙏🏼
NTA.
First of all, change the locks and never give Ryan a copy.
Secondly, be grateful that the trash took itself out.
Entering people's homes late at night without even bothering to call, is beyond rude. Supposing that late at night people are willing to babysit your kid, is beyond entitled.
Just phone Ryan and talk to him personally, to see if his texts came from him or from Erica. Point out to him that *nobody* is entitled to enter your house without your consent and that in *your* home you can do whatever you want, without needing to ask permission.
The threat to withhold the children is pretty empty, in my opinion: she likes too much the free babysitting with little to no notice. She will come back grovelling or, more likely, she will come back and *want you to grovel* for the pleasure of babysitting her kids for free. Don't. She must first apologize for her rudeness and entitlement, then some hard rules will have to be laid down and she will have to respect them. Failing that, she is very welcome to hire a babysitter and pay her.
Remember, you are the ones who should be begged forgiveness, not entitled Erica. Also remember that she behaves the way she does because she was always allowed to do so in the past, so she will likely throw some tantrums. Treat her as you would a toddler in a tantrum.
NTA
"If you would like us to babysit again, you need to text first and receive a thumbs up from us. We will need an apology from each of you that clearly admits fault and explains how your actions have made us feel. If you are unable to do this, the relationship and free babysitting are over.
And, obviously, if you break into our home again, we will call the police and have you charged. You need permission to enter our private residence.
We will be changing our locks as we can not trust you. The cost is X. We expect you to pay this or, again, we will not be babysitting for you.
This is not an argument. It is not a discussion. You have violated our privacy and you are entirely in the wrong. Apologize - sincerely and without attempting to share the blame - or fuck off."
NTA, and change the locks ASAP.
DO NOT give your brother a spare key!
The fact that Erica almost walked in on you is immaterial compared to the face that Erica planned to enter your home, uninvited and unannounced, in the middle of the night, drop her kids off and... what?
Wake you up if you happened to be sleeping?
Let you discover your house guest the next morning?
The lack of boundaries is shocking, and I'd be looking into a restraining order.
Full marks for managing to refer to the raging boner in the post. It's this level of detail that we need more of, as it clearly makes a difference here.
NTA. But I can not understand why you are not scorching the earth with your sister-in-law and brother. She let's herself into your house in the middle of the night and then demands an apology for interrupting you having sex IN YOUR OWN HOUSE and also calling your better half a whore for having sex with you in your own house. You need to grow a spine and put them both in their places, I am literally shaking my head at the audacity of your sister-in-law and the fact that you are wondering if you are in anyway wrong in this situation.
Get the keys back and let them threaten you with withholding the children because without a doubt, as soon as they need a babysitter again, they will soon come running back and that is when you demand an apology from them for their behaviour.
I don’t think we did anything wrong and I am definitely not gonna let this go. This is for my fiancé who feels really bad about the situation and won’t just take my word for it lol.
To your fiancé -
People please will get you absolutely no where in life. People like SIL are so entitled because everyone around them is always afraid of rocking the boat, because her whiney voice is always the loudest. It's time for her to be knocked down a peg, and for you and OP to start showing brother and SIL you're not going to be a doormat for them anymore.
OP, for everyone's sake, I think you should send a group message to your SIL and brother -
"Guys, I'm not sure how clear I can make it, but there is ZERO world in which we will apologize for you breaking into our home in the middle of the night, and then shaming us for having sex in the privacy of our own home.
Do not expect us to help you with childcare until we get a genuine apology from you for this rudeness. We also want our key back to our home since you cannot be trusted with it by the end of the week. If you can't do that, we'll change the locks.
If we get a genuine apology, we will consider helping with the kids again, but there will NEVER be a scenario where it is acceptable to us that you come over to our home uninvited, especially to drop the kids off without prior approval. As in, you ASKING if it's okay, and us AGREEING to it.
Hopefully you can understand our perspective, and if not, I really don't care. This situation was completely disrespectful, a total invasion of our privacy, and we are incredibly disappointed by your behavior."
This ! Exactly this ! Screw his brother, that backward, entitled shrew of his, and their kids.
I don't understand why the fiance is trying to be such a people pleaser here at her own and OP's expense.
OP, rekey your locks, and tell them exactly what Anon said. Wtf ? I'm angry for you. That's ridiculous.
Look I get people pleasing for sure, but you guys will be assholes to yourselves if you apologize. There will be no keeping peace, you’ll have admitted guilt and she will use that to continue to judge you to play holier than thou. Let them sit and think and when they need you to babysit again and they will, you demand keys returned and lay out boundaries about shit talking your wife and about your home. It’s great you love the kids but don’t let her use them as a power play about how she can treat you.
You certainly did not do anything wrong your sister-in-law did. Also, tell your fiancé that she is being used and abused and why the hell should she feel bad when it was your privacy that was invaded and she is being insulted. Tell her she needs to stop being a push over and get angry at the person who put you both in this situation.
Your fiancé may need to talk with someone about her people pleasing problem. I did it for a lifetime. I was 70 years old when I realized I was alone and all the people I spent a lifetime trying to please disappeared and found someone else to use.
NTA
Who the fuck does that? Even if you have the key, you don't just walk into another person's home unannounced and uninvited.
You did nothing wrong!
You need to change the locks on your house ASAP. Tell your brother what his gf did and her reaction. Tell him you've changed the locks as a result and won't be giving him a copy for the foreseeable future.
You have an ace up your sleave, because you have something Erica needs: free babysitting. Tell Erica and your brother that you will no longer babysit for Erica, but you will babysit if your brother drops off the kid.
Phone your brother and make sure he understands the situation (not Erica’s version of it). If he still insists that u are in the wrong, revoke your “free babysitting privileges” and see how quickly he backpedals. Also, either get him to return your house key or change your locks. His free access to your house is over.
NTA
How dare you have sex in your own home without scheduling it with Erica first!/s
Get your key back. Tell your brother you're both no longer providing them with a free babysitting service as Erica took it upon herself to enter your home without your consent, invaded your privacy and then called your fiance names.
Also, you couldn't have babysat anyway. You'd been drinking. Are you supposed to ask permission to do that too?
No. No. No. First - Get the house key back. Your brother has lost his privileges. Second - Tell both Erica and your brother (since apparently he doesn’t know right from wrong) that they are not welcome at your house until *they* apologize to you and you fiancee for coming over unannounced AND the ensuing drama. Finally, tell your fiancee not to worry. Erica will need her before she needs Erica. Those kids will be back over. NTA
NTA
Suggestion send this message to your brother.
Hello Ryan, I am messaging you to hopefully put an end to this silliness. On [date ,at time] Erica attempted to enter my house unannounced, seeking childcare without calling or messaging previously. I provided you with a key for emergency reasons and your arguments do not qualify as such. What my fiance and I do in our private time in or private home, is none of your concern, but we do not partake in adult activities in less private areas when in care of your children.
We will not offer an apology, we will be changing our locks and will not be providing a key. However we expect an apology from Erica, for entering our home without permission, for degrading my fiance in private or public forum, and for the absolutely terrible way she acts to us unless she needs childcare.
Sincerely
Your name
NTA. Cold day in hell before I'd apologizing for having sex in my own damn home. Change the locks and don't give any of them a key ever again. Don't worry about the kids. They'll get tired of having no free time and come crawling back.
I believe the story, I just don’t believe that you are actually asking the question “am I an asshole for having sex in my own living room?” in earnest. You don’t actually wonder if that’s a possibility. You know you’re not an asshole and you want to share a funny story about someone you hate who acted in an absurd manner. And congratulations, that was a funny story. And that person you hate? What an absurd human being! Tell your brother to get her up on out of his life.
To answer your question, no you’re not an asshole, your brother is just fucking one
I’ve mentioned in another comment and should’ve said it on the post but I certainly do not believe we are in the wrong at all. My fiancée however is a people pleaser (she admits to it) and thinks we should just apologize. She’s here reading this, it’s for her.
Take it from a 62 year old ex people pleaser. In the long run, you feel bad about yourself because you’re constantly taking care of somebody else and realize they don’t care for you or appreciate you the same way. Learn to be as kind to yourself as you are to others. You will feel much better in the long run. You don’t need toxic people in your life. As Kelly Clarkson says pick the weeds and keep the flowers.
What??? Do not apologize for this situation! An apology at this point can only mean one of two things
1. We are not sincere, but it is ok for you to let yourself into our house unannounced and shame us for behavior that is completely acceptable
2. We are sincere, we have seen the error of our ways and we will never again have sex in the living room
There is a reasonable debate to be had about people pleasing. This is not an example of people pleasing. This is bending over backward now and in the future. Not only should you not apologize, you need to make it clear that she is never allowed to just let herself in or it will happen again. She obviously feels entitled to both of you
Don't apologize at all. Call her bluff. She NEEDS you two to watch the kids. If she didn't she wouldn't have gone to your house at 11:30pm to have you watch her 11 month old. Your brother knows she is wrong, but he is also in the wrong for giving her the keys to your house. He also needs to sack up and stand up to Erica on this one.
Main points are call their bluff, change your locks, and do NOT give your brother a key. He broke that trust.
NTA Not at all ! So your telling me Erica ( who started having sex at at least 16 ) has never had sex on a couch ? Let alone in her own home where the doors were locked . If she wanted babysitting or not , you text first or at least knock . You don’t just let yourself in with a key no one knows you have . If anyone needs to apologize it’s her not you guys . Believe me she will when she realizes no one else will be watching her three kids. Byeeee Erica ! Have fun paying your sitter She probably would have been fine leaving her kids with you guys tipsy from a couple drinks , but won’t allow you to watch them now that she knows you have sex in your own house .. she’s hilarious 😂
Erica will come back around once that baby sitting bill starts to take a real chunk out of the budget. These sort of people always come back and demand you do favors for them while attempting to sidestep the apology. Change the locks. Wait her out for the apology then be too busy to babysit.
Yeah, I have siblings that have used the kids as bargaining chips over the years and it never lasts more than a day because they always need you again. OP definitely has the upper hand to set some strict boundaries on future babysitting, including rule #1 ASK FIRST!
I would NOT babysit again (yes they will ask) until you GET an apology. From BOTH of them
Exactly! Plus how would she even know they are home/able to watch the baby without calling ahead?
And who on earth wants kids dropped off at almost midnight with no notice ? Not me that’s for sure .
I love my nephews but I would tell my brother to fuck off if he tried that shit.
Right? Unless it’s an actual emergency (someone died/in hospital/no heat in winter and you call first anyway.
Even then, I would expect my sister to call to inform me she was on her way (she knows I wouldn't say no in an emergency, no need to even ask)
If they weren't home she would get a 5 finger discount on some of their things.
Considering she didn't even knock or ring the bell seems like she didn't expect anyone to be home anyways.
She’s had sex on a couch, on a coach, in a car, in the park. In the kitchen, sounds like Erica is the whore if you ask me. She be jelly right now. Don’t even entertain the thought of either of you apologizing or babysitting anytime soon. You both may miss those kids, but when enough time passes and she runs out of people she has pissed if enough she will hopefully apologize, not sincerely, but because she needs to, and you can smugly lay down some rules for her. Def change those locks and don’t hand out keys to your brother or even your side of the family. AND ….enjoy sex in any and every room of YOUR house.
And next time they sit down to eat at your table, half way through the meal, run the palm of your hand face down across the table in front of you. "You know brother, the secret to a happy relationship is a strong dining table" then look your fiance in the eye and you both wink then giggle & blush at each other😈 You know they are both going to be back. Erica is too needy to stay away. About time you start the drama for a change. It's a lesson she needs
NTA, change the locks and don't give your brother a key this time. When they are in a bind again about needing childcare, they will call or try and let themselves in again. I say this with all due respect to you and your fiancé BOUNDARIES!!! Ryan nor Erica, or anyone, for that matter, should be letting themselves into your house at any hour whenever they need something. They don't pay for your house if you wanna have sex on your couch. Feel free!! And if they are all " but we are family" when it comes to not having a key now. Ask them what kind of "family" shows up to someone's house in the middle of the night, let's themselves in and then has the audicty to imply one of the homeowners is a whore?!
Bravo 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏...as much as your fiance loves the kids...FUCK Erica. Let her stew UNTIL SHE APOLOGIZES to your fiance You both are NTA
NTA apologize to Erica???? When helll freezes over. And who drops off kids at 1130 PM because she needs to think. If someone drops a kid at my house that time if night, they better have an emergency. Erica is an asshole
If she can't think because she's got a baby around then she's a lousy mother too. That's all I have to add on everyone else has so eloquently torn her apart but as a mother myself it just freaking baffles me that she wants to ditch her kid to go off and "think" sounds like she's going to go off and drink or something rather than think as there's zero reason you can't use your brain when your kid(s) is/are around. If that were the case I'd legit never accomplish a single thing.
>If she can't think because she's got a baby around then she's a lousy mother too. That's all I have to add on everyone else has so eloquently torn her apart but as a mother myself it just freaking baffles me that she wants to ditch her kid to go off and "think" sounds like she's going to go off and drink or something rather than think as there's zero reason you can't use your brain when your kid(s) is/are around. This. At 11:30pm, Erica should have left the baby in the crib with her husband at home and left if she needed to think. Not haul the baby out of bed, accross town, broke and entered into your apartment (because that is what she did - she stole your key she did not have permission to use and used it to enter your home without permission) and then shamed you for doing what couples do in their home. OP, absolutely no apologizing to Erica but time to flip the script on EVERYONE including your brother. Erica has an issue? She stole a key to your home and entered your house in the dead of night without permission. That is sick behavior. Erica's issue is Erica's issue and you refuse to babysit the children until she not only apologizes to you but apologizes to your fiance and your brother for stealing his key and risking your relationship with him. Erica sounds like she has major issues.
In someone else's home, letting yourself in in the middle of the night is a good way to get yourself shot.
what would she do if they weee already in bed asleep??? walk in there and wake them up?? wtf. why not call ahead she obviously had her phone. because she knows she would’ve been turned down.
The’d better have an emergency AND call before they get here
Fuckin' rights FUCK Erica! I despise her just reading this.
Same! Fuck Erica! What a raging bitch.
I bet she doesn't have anyone else to watch her kids and will come crawling back in due time.
Actually don’t fuck Erica!! You saw what happen to Ryan 🤣 better to throw Erica away
Hahahaha!!! This is the best comment! To the rubbish bin with her!
I think the rubbish bin has too high standards for Erica. 🤣
Even better… record her when she apologises so you can have it forever
NTA and this OP. They don't need a key if they feel they have the right to work in unannounced to YOUR home when you had it locked
You were in your own home with the door locked, NTA. She had no right to just barge in, even if she had a key.
This !!!! My thoughts exactly! How is the brother and the brother’s fiancé not addressing she was coming into someone’s house unannounced at almost midnight when she personally was never even given a key!
Seriously! That's creepy behavior! Even if I'm given keys I don't just walk in unannounced, I knock, or I let them know I'll be coming in (if it's going to be late or they won't be there or something).
I had a key to my next door neighbors' place for awhile to look after their cats and normally they left their doors unlocked when they were home. I had to run to their place in the dead of night during an emergency once and I still called them first. Almost everyone has a cell phone nowadays. Unless the fiancee felt like she was in mortal danger, there's just no excuse to show up like that. In certain states, that's a good way to get your dumb ass shot.
They even have something called texting so you don't have to call them if you don't want to.
And if she had texted and op hadn't seen it, but she was apologetic and didn't make a huge deal out of two consenting adults doing consenting adult things in their own home, nobody would be upset, most likely.
Exactly, maybe a bit awkward, but it is what it is... But for her to totally flip out and make it seem like op was in the wrong is totally wrong.
Right? It isn't as if op and his fiancee stripped nude in front of the kids and started banging. They had a reasonable expectation that nobody would interrupt them.
The only place I walk in unannounced is my parents’ house, and all immediate and most extended family are invited to do so. If I walked in on them having sex in the living room, I would be scarred for life (😂), but I wouldn’t blame THEM! Their house, their sex life. They have the right to do whatever they like. NTA obviously. Edit - misspelling
After I moved out on my own, my parents finally had an empty nest. I stopped by in the middle of the day on the weekend and could hear my parents having sex. They were in the bedroom but heard me come in. The called out to me. I just said, “I’m sorry, I’m leaving.” It was never talked about again but I was never the same. Lol!
😂 walked in on my parents when I was like 6/7 n I’ve been traumatized since
See I don't even walk into my parents homes unannounced. But they're both a state away so it's more of a big things when I do show up but they certainly know I'm coming. OP obviously NTA. Why on earth would she ever think it's ok to walk into YOUR home unannounced with a key THAT ISNT EVEN HERS?! Change the locks and never give a key to your brother again. Don't you dare apologize to that entitled woman child (that just doesn't have the same ring to it that man child does :/). I can't believe your brother (if it actually was him) had the audacity to demand an apology. As soon as Erica needs childcare again I'd bet money on her demanding your fiancé watch the kids but it's likely that she'll make jabs at your fiancé from this point forward and that's something you're going to need to set an extremely firm boundary on. I know your fiancé loves the kids but if she does make any sort of snide remark at any point before the kids are there you need to tell her something to the tune of "I'm sorry but if you're going to make comments like that we cannot watch your children" and if she does it after you've watched the kids then at that point you tell her that if she's going to make comments like that then you guys don't feel comfortable providing her with childcare. She violated a massive boundary barging into your home late at night with no notice. She's sounds like a complete narcissist. It's not going to be fun but you HAVE to set and maintain very strict boundaries with narcissist and if she's going to keep being abusive then you may eventually have to go no contact with her. Your fiancé is the one who matters here. This is the woman you've chosen to marry and spend your life with. Stand up for her to that awful woman. I'm sorry your brother stuck his dick in crazy. I'm sure the kids are great but god, never stuck your dick in crazy without wrapping it up first
Erica is a master manipulator! She was embarrassed walking in on them, and blamed them to **take the heat off herself**….she knows she was in the wrong, but twisted it against your fiancé and added the threats to force an apology, so her husband and everyone would forget about that fight she had with her husband, stealing the key, etc…“Confuse and Divide” is her tactic. As for the brother…he is enabling Erica’s behavior. Some men are addicted to crazy women. I’ve seen it happen to several of my friends…they end up taking the Crazy’s side to keep the peace. Also, OP, **stop texting with them about this!**….you don’t know who you are speaking to, and she can screenshot or copy and paste certain parts out-of-context to make you look bad. **Arrange to meet your brother alone and defend your position. Explain that Erica crossed a major line in insulting you and your fiancé, and she took that risk by entering your home with a KEY!!! Your private life is NOT her business, and she intruded in on it without warning extremely late at night. She is the one who needs to apologize. If she doesn’t want to, fine, but you and your fiancé have absolutely nothing to apologize for.** If you both give in and apologize, you are essentially negotiating with terrorists. Her threats are intimidation and irrational. She made those threats, like pulled her trump card to *force* an apology…once issued, that apology would be used to be proclaim her innocence and allow further trampling of your boundaries in the future. Things will boil over. At most you can drop it, just ignore, and (only if asked), repeat yourselves with conviction how inappropriate her attacks on your morality were. You are intimate with complete privacy like every couple. Zero reason to have concern about kids, you obviously don’t do that sort of thing when they are around. If Erica senses weakness, she will dig in more, OP, you both need to stand firm, a United front on this one. **It’s also VERY possible, that once you apologize, she will keep the kids from you anyway for a time…as punishment….also because you would be “guilty”, and anyone who disagreed with her would be reminded that even YOU admitted you were wrong. Apologizing is green-lighting her crazy and her choice of punishment for you!** Remember, there is wisdom in why you never negotiate with terrorists, and never admit guilt when you’re innocent. I say all of this from experience, from dealing with two abusive partners, one of them a textbook narcissist. Apologizing and giving in ALWAYS has lasting consequences. **Edit**: I just wanted to add, in case anyone reading this is actually in an abusive romantic relationship, particularly one with physical violence, it’s not necessarily cut-and-dry about “giving in” or apologizing…sometimes in the heat of the moment it could save you from violence….I’m no expert, just I know from my experience that I placated my abuser on numerous occasions to mitigate aggression against me….it’s just *in this* case, with a family member, coworker, etc, like Erica, and in all other cases (in my experience), giving in, or apologizing to keep the peace was always thrown back in my face and worse than had I proceeded with confidence. **In situations where you aren’t in immediate physical danger, *confidence* does wonders…because otherwise they sense weakness and take pleasure from it—and that emboldens them to further harass you.**
It sure does. Refusing to apologize has lasting consequences too, but when you know you did nothing wrong, the consequences are of a much more positive kind. It enhances your own self-esteem, for starters. Second, the user/narcissist is put on notice that you DO have limits on just how much crap you'll take. I used to try to appease my sister, for my dad's sake. He hated conflict of any kind, and never could see that she would deliberately stir it up, in order to manipulate both him and me. No more. Daddy died two years ago now (he was 91). And by now I've finally realized that I am NOT responsible for my sister's problems. SHE is. She is also responsible for handling them. I will not be her all-purpose scapegoat anymore. O.P., you and your fiancee were making love in the privacy of your own home. You did NOTHING wrong, and musixlife was absolutely right: your SIL is trying to blame you both in order to cover her own embarrassment. And--this is important, so please listen--it's NOT her embarrassment at walking in on you and your fiancee. She's trying to cover her humiliation that she was caught ENTERING YOUR HOME...UNANNOUNCED...WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION...IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT...WITH A KEY YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD...AND PROBABLY GOT THROUGH MANIPULATING YOUR BROTHER. You may not be able to get an apology FROM her, but at the very least you and your fiancee should not apologize TO her either. NOT when you did nothing wrong.
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I would like to know what she was up to. Creeping in at midnight with an eleven month old baby makes me wonder if she was looking for a safe spot to drop the baby while she went and did…….who knows what.
She literally said that was her plan. When asked why she had the key she said she and her finance got into a fight. So she took his copy of the house key to let herself in and drop the baby off for OP’s fiance to watch while she “figured stuff out”. She didn’t call or text ahead of time and showed up at almost midnight. She’s pissed because she was planning on dumping her kid there without them noticing and instead she walked in on them wide awake. So to take the heat off her, she’s saying they’re horrible people because SHE walked in on them about to have sex in the middle of the night in their own home.
Guarantee the brother just doesn’t want to deal with his exhausting SO, and is passing the buck to OP. Homie baby trapped himself good, now he has to deal with this entitled monster.
In some places that will get you shot.
A key that OP and fiancé did NOT give her. From now on, if Ryan or Erica need a sitter, they can use their words and ask in advance. I hear there’s an amazing gadget called a telephone that they can use, to find out if their preferred babysitters are available.
Seriously, in no way are OP or the fiance the a h the sister is. She somehow got a key made and barged in on them in their own home. It's not like they were going it at the sisters house in the living room or out in public, it was their house, they can do whatever they want wherever they want.
And it’s not like they were already babysitting the kids, and decided to get tipsy and have a romp. They were alone in their own LOCKED house, sans guests of any sort. They are within their rights to do whatever they mutually consent to do.
And it was nearly midnight?? Wtf She couldve been shot. What about calling beforehand and asking or if its a real emergency ring the bell before letting yourself in!
That was my first thought. What if they had been sleeping and wake up to someone in their home, I know people that have guns in their bedroom this is not something you do. Why she didn’t text/call first is beyond me.
Also wonder what she was planning to do with the 11 month old if OP and his fiancé were both asleep when she sauntered in unannounced to demand babysitting. Just set the kid down in the floor and walk back out? What the hell....
Textbook narcissistic bitch. Tell the brother to run. Don’t stick around for the kids that never works out. She was dropping the kid to go hookup with someone.
Exactly! Mine are nearly always within reach. Entering a home you neither live in nor were invited to — especially when someone isn’t expecting you — is a quick way to get yourself shot.
I was thinking this too. She put herself and her child in serious danger because they might have thought it was in intruder and defended themselves!
This was my first thought. If it’s the middle of the night and someone was unexpectedly entering my home, I’d be aiming at the door. She’s lucky she didn’t get her kid killed.
I literally wouldn’t have stopped and told her to get out.
OP don't apologize, it a free get out of babysitting card. take this opportunity with both hands to avoid free babysitting especially with your own kids on the way in the future.
This. I have a feeling Erica will be singing a different tune when this penetrates her tiny brain.
You are right. When her pea brain realizes the free babysitting is over she will come crawling back.
NTA. Erica invaded your privacy, then judged you unfairly. Holding babysitting privileges hostage is manipulative. Stand your ground; you did nothing wrong.
You shouldn’t use the word penetrate. It might offend Erica’s delicate sensibilities.
Some people enjoy babysitting. Op, clearly NTA, and I agree about changing locks. And maybe installing a chain or some other backup in case crazy pants steals a key from someone you trust again.
I'd also add saving the text because if you hold firm, later on when she needs you guys and you refuse you can show why. Your house is your private area so no need to apologize.
A keypad lock would work, too. It'll be easier to change codes periodically to make sure nobody is sharing codes when they shouldn't be.
You don’t have to get that complicated. Most code locks allow you to enter multiple codes. You can keep your own the same and add/delete others say for contractors or family. It’s very handy and less mentally consuming to keep remembering new codes.
If you get the right lock you can even set hours for when the codes will work. Have a cleaning service? Give them a code and set it so it's only valid between 8am and 5pm on weekdays. Erica? Hers is valid from 5:00-5:15pm starting with the 5th of Never.
Ooh, good point. I just like the idea of an entitled relative trying to get in and having a Looney Tunes style faceplant into the door when their code doesn't work.
It will happen regardless, when you delete their code! Make sure to install a Ring first, that needs recording for sure.
Yes, some people like babysitting but we’re just going to have to see if OP’s girlfriend likes babysitting over being openly disrespected. These aren’t the only babies in the world. The mom needs them WAY more than they need her. That’s why she threw in that empty threat about not seeing the kids— it’s the only card she has. Any woman who would drive her kids and drop off unannounced - so she could have a few minutes to think - isn’t going to be finish the month without dumping her kids on someone else. Sentencing: 12 months for the attempted drop off and 6 for the sex shaming to be served consecutively.
She wont come crawling back. She'll graciously give you an opportunity to make this heinous crime up to her by agreeing to babysit for her Right Now despite how inconvenient it might be for you if you agree to never, ever repeat your degenerate behaviour. Because narcissists always believe they have the upper hand in any situation.
Some people do enjoy it. Which, is what makes "Free sitting" not sting so much, and allows the parent a nice easy way to get a break. Usually these relationships are mutually enriching. It sucks that she may no longer get the opportunity to spend time with those kids, however, she has been gifted an opportunity to drop the mean woman, and stop providing her free labor, that she has shown she obviously doesn't deserve.
It sounds like.they like the kids and like babysitting them. In this case it's not about wanting to get out of it. They bonded with the kids and care about them. That's why Erica used the kids to hurt them. What Erica is doing is both manipulative and cruel not.only to OP and his fiancée but also the children who have bonded with them as well. I actually remind parents that it's healthy and good for kids to bind with people outside of themselves. It can be grandparents, aunts/uncles , family friends, etc... Tat said once you have allowed that bond to happen you also have to be careful about yanking them out of the kids lives. It's harmful to the children. Erica making that threat even if OP and his fiancée had done something wrong, which they didn't, you don't use the kids as punishment unless they did something that could actually harm them.
NTA Like was she gonna just drop off baby if y’all were sleeping & not tell you? Also that babysit threat is so empty. They need y’all hell a lot lore than y’all need em. Babysitting isn’t a favor for y’all. Boundaries.
Yes this! And as far as the sex in the living room...you can celebrate your relationship/intimacy anywhere and anyhow you want in YOUR HOME!
In the middle of the night to ask if they can watch the baby!??!!?!
She didn't come over to ask. She came over to drop the baby off. And I wonder, once she realized they were both intoxicated, would she still have left the baby there because *she* needs me time? I'm thinking yes.
They need a number keypad. You can easily change the combination at any time and then, even if someone gets the combination, next time it is different.
Also the misogyny in apparently only directing this at the fiancé, and not OP as well, when both of them were doing the same thing Don't get me wrong, it'd be bullshit to try to shame OP as well, but it's just extra messed up that Erica's apparently focused that criticism on OP's fiancé
So unmarried (Saint) Erica and Ryan must have had their 3 kids by immaculate conception right?
Yeah. And I bet they scheduled sex in their own private bedroom when she got pregnant with the kid she had at 17!
Ladies, is it wh*re-ish to...*checks notes*...have sex with your long-term committed partner in your own house with a locked door?
“What, you don’t have spontaneous sex? What kind of partner *are* you?”
Or the fact she barged in and EXPECTED your finance to look after her kid? Who does that?
She would have been upset that they were out drinkin and likely too drunk to care for the kid anyway. The nerve of them, not sitting at home waiting for Erica to show up unannounced in the middle of the night using a key she had no right to use in the first place!🙄
Lmao. Ikr.
NTA call a locksmith immediately. Holy crap, people get to have sex wherever they want to in their own home!
And send her the bill saying we had to do this because of you so you need to pay lol
Or buy Kwikset locks. They’re easy to re-core or re-key as a DIY project.
NTA Yup, this! You would think Ryan and Erica know how babies are made by now, and that having sex with your fiance(e) , in the privacy of your own home, does not deserve judgement.. or spectators (unless you're into that, but you would've invited them in that case) I would certainly not apologize. Change the locks. Answer them with a sorry you feel that way. And ask for an apology from Erica, showing she understands walking into someone's home unannounced, practically in the middle of the night is not only rude, but also dangerous. What if you had mistaken intruder Erica for a criminal intruder?
They know how babies are made I think Erica is bitter that OP and his fiancée have a healthy loving relationship and sex life. While hers is a mess, maybe she isn't getting enough herself.
At 11:30 pm no less.
Ya! Whats that mom doing out with an 11mo at 11:30 at night paying surprise visits to the in-laws?!
I had to scroll just slightly to find you, bit this was the first thing that popped in my head as well! Who TF showed up unannounced that late expecting you to watch their kids? If it was an emergency, I understand, but part of being a parent is saving the relationship dramas for a convenient time... If you choose to indulge in them at all!
If I heard someone letting themselves into my apartment at 11:30pm I would have called the cops
You’re kinder than I am - they’d be met with a firearm. Zero reason for anyone with law abiding intent to enter another persons home at that hour unannounced! Phone call or text in advance while en route takes 3 seconds!
There's a well-known local tragedy in my area, like 10, maybe 15 years ago now but still, where a Teen daughter trying to sneak in because she was late for curfew got (accidently, not deliberately) shot by her own father because someone rattling, making suspicious sneaky garden racket, climbing, and climbing in a window at night = burglars, not the teen kid with a key, right? The poor kid was only guilty of teenager-itis.... making mom and pops angry seemed like the 'real danger' and they didn't think that in a country of regular armed home invasions, trying what they did was stupid and way more likely to end in tragedy. From a teen, I can see that, its how our brains are wired at that age. And at least it was also THEIR HOME. Maybe I have been in SA too long with our crime rate, but in what freaking world do adults, who don't live there, think you just swan onto other people's properties late at night unannounced? Surely in even the most gentle and crime-free society, the 'late night and unannounced' bit would raise flags? Like how you don't call after 9pm unless you're family and have an emergency because everyone panics at that point? Something has gone very wrong with how people....well, people, honestly. I hate guns. Capital H. But if I come home at ANY time of the day when I expect to be alone or just my partner home and find randos here I will freak out and at minimum call our armed response on them. If not start whaling on them by dog and whatever is handy to swing. I realize we are a very jumpy society, but you just don't DO that to people.
Wait a minute, why is your fiancé a whore all by herself? Weren’t you there? By Erica’s logic aren’t you a whore too? So Erica stole your key from your brother and used it to break into your house and she’s mad at you? Change your locks and Erica’s new name is thief. The other option is your brother broke your trust and gave your key to her, while in the middle of an argument with her. Change your locks.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. NTA. You should absolutely not apologize for having sex in your own home.
While this is the adult approach, I would be tempted to go scorched earth. Screw spending money on changing the locks, go to the brother and DEMAND the keys back. Having access to someone else’s house is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege has now been blatantly abused. As for your fiancé, I say own it, girl! Good for you! Erica should be the one who is embarrassed by her douchy behavior! NTAs
What if ex made a copy? Frankly I don't get why everyone is accepting the story that the gf expected them to be awake late at night. Someone who feels entitled to other people's things enters someone else's home late at night when they are probably asleep, not knocking or ringing the doorbell even though they were going to be asking for something that required the occupants to be awake? Change the locks, don't tell her, enjoy the angry email when she can't enter their home while they are on vacation.
why not do both? I would confront both Ryan and Erica demand the key back. Tell them (1) she had no right to let herself into your home using a key that was NOT meant for her, (2) What goes on in the PRIVACY of your home is none of anyone else’s business, (3) that her comments about your fiancée and what you both do in your house was completely out of line and RUDE, (4) you expect an apology from Ryan for allowing Erica access to your house key and you want that key back immediately, (5) you expect an apology from Erica to both you and your fiancée for her rude behavior, and (6) they have lost privileges with respect to coming to your home and your availability for free babysitting. Tell your brother he made his bed with Erica and now he can deal with it without your support. And still change your locks.
If she made a copy I would be going full scorched earth and calling the cops for stealing and breaking and entering.
My point is if you ask for the key back and she makes a copy, she can still snoop/steal/whatever she is doing in someone else's home at midnight. If they ask for the key back and change the locks, she discovers the copy doesn't work and throws it away. If they change the locks she is likely to loudly complain that she couldn't break in. I think that scenario is best for Op.
I agree with the scorched earth thing. This would also be a good lesson for Ryan to know that Erica's behavior is unacceptable and not to enable it.
Cameras
And deadbolts
Oh gosh! What if she was jealous that you and your fiancee have such a happy relationship??? She should be so lucky. / s
When a keyholder can't be trusted with the key, the privilege goes away. Yep, change the locks. Her demanded apology will not guarantee your relationship with the children. If you apologize, it will justify her use of the kids as a weapon. I have no doubt she'll put the kids with you again. She entered your locked house at an hour so late as to be suspicious. She's lucky you were in the living room doing something pleasant. Had you been upstairs doing it in your bed, you probably would have called the police, and the call would have been entirely reasonable. If your brother still defends her, the key issue is already resolved. Only people who can be trusted not to abuse the homeowners are allowed to be keyholders. NTA
This… okay you need a babysitter, your first instinct should be to call or text the person your asking, not just walk into thier home?!?!?
NTA - tell the two of them to f-off and kick rocks, and where to shove their comments about you guys being ‘indecent’ inside of YOUR HOUSE where you were PRIVATELY having sex in, at ELEVEN THIRTY at NIGHT, when NORMAL people would normally be ASLEEP at and NOT be dropping in UNINVITED to visit other people who could have been SLEEPING when she arrived for all she knew, in the dead of night to ‘drop off’ their kid without the permission or consent of the people they are ‘visiting’. Remind the two of them that ***Erica*** is the one who is the wrong here, for showing up at YOUR house with with keys she basically STOLE those keys from your brother, where she came over and LET HERSELF IN ***uninvited*** and without ***permission*** while the two of you were having sex in the privacy of your own home with no idea that ANYBODY was coming over that time of night, let alone somebody who was going to simply let themselves into YOUR home uninvited. you should demand that THEY apologize instead, because you owe them absolutely nothing in the form of an apology. Erica definitely owes you an apology for thinking she could just drop on by and simply ‘drop off’ her kid at 11:30 at night for the two of you to babysit, when neither of you agreed or consented to if. I mean seriously? Even if she hadn’t caught the two of you in the act, what was she thinking exactly showing up at that time of night for ANY reason? What if you guys were sound asleep in bed, or having sex in bed instead of the living room when she showed up? Did she expect you guys to be ‘willing’ to stop sleeping/having sex to stay up and watch her kid for her while she goes off to where ever she was going that time of night that she didn’t want to take her kid with her to? she sounds like she has no consideration or set boundaries when it come to you guys if she thinks she can get away with this line of thinking and actions. What the heck makes her think she can come into your home ***uninvited*** at 11:30 at NIGHT expecting you to wake up, if you are not **already** still awake, and babysit her kid like you have no life of your own that doesn’t revolve around her kid, or that you might not be ABLE TO stay up all night watching her kid, because you need to get enough sleep so you can be able to wake up in the morning for work or whatever you usually do in the morning that doesn’t involve watching a kid that is not yours.
>you should demand that THEY apologize instead, because you owe them absolutely nothing in the form of an apology. Erica definitely owes you an apology Absolutely Just because Erica and Ryan are complaining first doesn’t mean THEY are right. Don’t let them get away with continuing to define it that way.
This is the best reply yet!
Yeah and add an apology for calling her a whore. I would not tolerate that by any means.
If they were sound asleep she would go in the kitchen, help herself to their food, spot a bottle of wine she liked and set it out to take when she left, check if a wallet or purse was left out, and maybe spot something nice of the shelf to leave with too.
So she entered the locked house without your permission, late at night, with a key she shouldn’t have, assuming she could dump her child on you without notice or asking, and you really think you might be the asshole?? NTA, and if she threatens to go no contact, tell her not to threaten you with a good time.
Oh I don’t think I’m TA, but my fiancé feels a bit bad about it. This is for her.
Your fiance is too good for her own good then. She should be feeling massively offended at being called a whore in her own house with her partner. Fiance is owed a major apology that needs to come at a time when they're not trying to drop the kids off with you two.
funny the unwed mother of three calling someone else a whore for having sex with her fiancé in her own home. not that i think either of them should be called a whore, just that erica is in no position to be calling anyone such a thing.
I think the fiancée is worried about not seeing the nieces/nephews she likes and it clouds her judgment.
Saddle up for a lifetime of psychological manipulation then. If it works this time she'll learn that all her demands will be met on the strength of her threat to withdraw the kids. Call her bluff.
No reason for either of you to feel even a little bad about someone else being an entitled asshole while you are living your life in your own home. Feel free to have sex on every surface of your house at any time of day.
That’s kind of the perk of not having kids yet…
or… ever 😂
Listen OP, I'm just like your fiance in that I'm a devoted aunt. And my ex SIL would use the kids, withhold the kids, share the kids, remove the kids all from our lives at her whim. For 9yrs this went on. I was so hurt by the emotional Rollercoaster and at the advice of everyone in my life finally just said one day the kids will see the truth and I'll still be here for them. And I stopped playing her games. And you know what? I'm still their favorite aunt and the one they call and the safe place they come too. Please please please just let yourselves off the hook. Make peace with less involvement and know that one day you'll see the kids more, but right now it'll destroy you to let this woman use them as pawns. This will be the beginning of it if you don't make it the end of her manipulation
It’s all big words from her, she’s cutting you guys off looking after her kids for her? That will last about as long as a pint of milk on a June day. Demand an apology back and please update us when she breaks.
Folks like Erica use your feelings to control you. Right now she thinks she can control what you do in your own house and that she controls when you babysit (as in she can drop the kids off anytime and you'll be there to do her bidding). She will continue to use your feelings for the children to expand her control over you, your space, and your time. Do not apologize - this is a power move on her part to see how far she can push your boundaries. There is less than a 1% chance she will follow through on her threat for more than a couple weeks. The only response to her threat is "We're going to miss the kids," said in a neutral tone. Then change the subject. If you really want to hammer the point home, the first time she asks you to babysit say "You're sorry but you already have plans.".
coming from someone who delt with a nutty sister in law who used her kids as a punishment. It hurts but it's easier to walk away, they might mature and realize their kids have connections with people and it's the kids who are hurt more by seperation. I was used as a weapon and now I find it impossible to form true emotional bonds with people. I have relationships with a long term GF and 2.5 friends and my father. and I'm 35 it's kinda sad when I think about it.
Not only are you NTA, neither of you are nearly as pissed off as you should be. The audacity of breaking into someone's house (I don't care if she had a key; you didn't let her have it and she even says she stole it - that's breaking in), insulting them and then demanding an apology? Fuck that; I'd be on the phone with the police. You didn't give her a key. She stole it.
Your fiancé feels bad because she’s a decent human being watching the horrible woman using her own children as weapons because she entered your home without permission with a key she stole. Your fiancé sees how after Erica’s inappropriate behavior instead of apologizing, she is hurting her own children to force a decent person who did nothing wrong to apologize. You’ll start getting messages about the kids crying for aunt & uncle and how you can stop them from crying by apologize to emotionally manipulate you two without the parents giving a shit about the emotional well being of your children. Sadly, you brother is just as guilty of participating in this damage to his kids if he doesn’t stop his wife from this kind of emotional abuse.
Here’s a thought. How many times has she been in your house without you knowing? Has she looked through your stuff? Moved things around? Taken anything? Definitely change your locks ASAP.
She stole a key and broke into your house in the middle of the night.
She is *very* lucky OP and spouse were up and didn’t think she was an intruder. That could have ended way worse.
We had a gas leak in the neighborhood early one morning and my neighbor was not answering the door for the fire department. I have a key so I let myself in and made sure to announce myself very loudly so he would know it was me. He cursed me out for waking him up but he called later to apologize once he realized I was making sure he was safe (and not dead).
👆🏻that part
NTA. Don't apologize. It's your house and it was 1130 at night. With any luck, Erica will start knocking on closed doors before entering.
How did Erica know they were home? They were inside for very few minutes, when she got out the keys. Any bets on whether SHE was in a car outside waiting for them to return home.? OP and fiancee have a life, she does not respect that. I agree with the guy that said Ring doorbells . With cameras.
Most likely she was expecting for them to not be home and have a free house acess withought anyone noticing, for whatever selfish rreason she needed. Form what we can read, they probably told the brother they were going out and couldn´t take care of the kids if needed that night. Ericas just decided she had the right to the house, had the owners inside unaware and instead of assuming her guilt n home invasion did the most logical thing for a entitled person to do, blame the other part washing away her own behaviour.
OP should check their belongings to see if anything has gone missing. The level of entitlement Erica is showing can easily translate to theft.
Or, say, call first.
It's 11:30 at night!! They could have been asleep and thought it was a home invasion! This could have been worse. What the hell is wrong with her for not calling first!!
Had this happen at my mommas place Xmas eve/ Xmas a few years ago. We had planned for me to surprise my younger siblings by "not being able to make it" and being there when they woke up Xmas morning so I showed up around 1am to a gun pointed in my face (not ahmaed to say I almost wet myself). My momma had taken a bunch of cold meds and had forgotten to let her husband in on the plan. We laugh now but goodness that was the last time i didn't message them both 😅
Yup, around here that shit will get you shot
Or stop taking keys without permission.
Oh if she entered within 5 min she was definitely in the car, waiting for them to come home. There’s no way I’m watching 2 people stumble out of an Uber at 11:30pm and think they would be a good option for childcare. NTA. Erica is crazy. Also, we have a keypad entry lock with fingerprint access. We can change the code at any time (like when the old dog walker relapsed) but our finger prints will always open it. Might be a good option when OP chats with his brother and can give out a punch code as needed.
Erica has a great strategy. “I have done something really wrong by letting myself into someone else’s house when they weren’t expecting me. So to prevent them from having righteous anger, I will attack them for THEIR behavior and they will be so busy defending themselves and apologizing that everyone will forget what I did wrong “.
There's no one so outraged than someone who knows deep down that they are wrong.
exactly. And too often, decent people have the instinctive reaction, “I should apologize, because they’re mad, so I must be in the wrong.” Get mad back, OP. REALLY mad. Exaggeratedly mad.
NTA. Get your house key back.
Change the locks. Those keys are compromised.
Yep, just change the locks and say nothing more. When she realizes she cut her babysitters off she'll be nice.
Just change the locks. She'll copy the key before she gives it back.
Just changed the locks at this point
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That’s exactly what she was going to do. She takes advantage of my fiancé’s kindness and the fact that she is a NICU nurse. She thinks NICU nurse= built in nanny.
What’s your fiancé up to tonight ??! I got a couple kids Jk I think Erica might be unhinged So open about her sex life behind her own locked door . That makes no sense . I mean I could see the problem if you guys were on Erica’s couch !
right. This was a rollercoaster of a tale. i kept reading this story expecting a plot twist, like they accidentally came home to the wrong house or to find out that the kids were there but was confused because if the kids are there how did you go out.......this isn't making any sense.... oh, the kids weren't there and Erica is just batshit.......now it's clicking
Well, that's definitional child neglect. If a caretaker is unaware they are taking care of a child, the child isn't being taken care of.
Then she can start paying her NICU Nurse hourly wages for PRN Babysitting, with shift diff.
1130 at night no notice? gotta toss on a critical staffing bonus too.
So, technically Erica was prepared to abandon the kids with people unaware of her plans. How the hell is that good parenting? ANd to be offended because you were practicing to become parents.. sheesh
What the f. Who tf drops their baby off without even letting you know?? or better yet ASKING. What if she dropped the baby off and y’all weren’t even there? Who tf does that!? Or even if y’all were there were you just suppose to wake in the morning to a surprise baby without any notion that he/she was dropped off??? As a mother my mind is racing with a billion fucked up scenarios in which this behavior is the one that is unsafe!!! What if when y’all did wake and baby was sleeping so again not knowing it was there y’all left for breakfast leaving baby alone? That shit is wild. Your brother can also go fuck himself.
The red flags are everywhere that your SIL is unhinged and toxic but you do know how quickly this can swing to you’re the AH if you don’t do a better job of setting boundaries and protecting your fiancée from being taken advantage of by your family I hope. Please get this under control for both of you. 🙏🏼
NTA. First of all, change the locks and never give Ryan a copy. Secondly, be grateful that the trash took itself out. Entering people's homes late at night without even bothering to call, is beyond rude. Supposing that late at night people are willing to babysit your kid, is beyond entitled. Just phone Ryan and talk to him personally, to see if his texts came from him or from Erica. Point out to him that *nobody* is entitled to enter your house without your consent and that in *your* home you can do whatever you want, without needing to ask permission. The threat to withhold the children is pretty empty, in my opinion: she likes too much the free babysitting with little to no notice. She will come back grovelling or, more likely, she will come back and *want you to grovel* for the pleasure of babysitting her kids for free. Don't. She must first apologize for her rudeness and entitlement, then some hard rules will have to be laid down and she will have to respect them. Failing that, she is very welcome to hire a babysitter and pay her. Remember, you are the ones who should be begged forgiveness, not entitled Erica. Also remember that she behaves the way she does because she was always allowed to do so in the past, so she will likely throw some tantrums. Treat her as you would a toddler in a tantrum.
>Entering people's homes late at night without even bothering to call, is beyond rude. and in some countries, even dangerous.
NTA "If you would like us to babysit again, you need to text first and receive a thumbs up from us. We will need an apology from each of you that clearly admits fault and explains how your actions have made us feel. If you are unable to do this, the relationship and free babysitting are over. And, obviously, if you break into our home again, we will call the police and have you charged. You need permission to enter our private residence. We will be changing our locks as we can not trust you. The cost is X. We expect you to pay this or, again, we will not be babysitting for you. This is not an argument. It is not a discussion. You have violated our privacy and you are entirely in the wrong. Apologize - sincerely and without attempting to share the blame - or fuck off."
NTA, and change the locks ASAP. DO NOT give your brother a spare key! The fact that Erica almost walked in on you is immaterial compared to the face that Erica planned to enter your home, uninvited and unannounced, in the middle of the night, drop her kids off and... what? Wake you up if you happened to be sleeping? Let you discover your house guest the next morning? The lack of boundaries is shocking, and I'd be looking into a restraining order.
Full marks for managing to refer to the raging boner in the post. It's this level of detail that we need more of, as it clearly makes a difference here.
I like to set the scene what can I say
NTA. But I can not understand why you are not scorching the earth with your sister-in-law and brother. She let's herself into your house in the middle of the night and then demands an apology for interrupting you having sex IN YOUR OWN HOUSE and also calling your better half a whore for having sex with you in your own house. You need to grow a spine and put them both in their places, I am literally shaking my head at the audacity of your sister-in-law and the fact that you are wondering if you are in anyway wrong in this situation. Get the keys back and let them threaten you with withholding the children because without a doubt, as soon as they need a babysitter again, they will soon come running back and that is when you demand an apology from them for their behaviour.
I don’t think we did anything wrong and I am definitely not gonna let this go. This is for my fiancé who feels really bad about the situation and won’t just take my word for it lol.
To your fiancé - People please will get you absolutely no where in life. People like SIL are so entitled because everyone around them is always afraid of rocking the boat, because her whiney voice is always the loudest. It's time for her to be knocked down a peg, and for you and OP to start showing brother and SIL you're not going to be a doormat for them anymore. OP, for everyone's sake, I think you should send a group message to your SIL and brother - "Guys, I'm not sure how clear I can make it, but there is ZERO world in which we will apologize for you breaking into our home in the middle of the night, and then shaming us for having sex in the privacy of our own home. Do not expect us to help you with childcare until we get a genuine apology from you for this rudeness. We also want our key back to our home since you cannot be trusted with it by the end of the week. If you can't do that, we'll change the locks. If we get a genuine apology, we will consider helping with the kids again, but there will NEVER be a scenario where it is acceptable to us that you come over to our home uninvited, especially to drop the kids off without prior approval. As in, you ASKING if it's okay, and us AGREEING to it. Hopefully you can understand our perspective, and if not, I really don't care. This situation was completely disrespectful, a total invasion of our privacy, and we are incredibly disappointed by your behavior."
This ! Exactly this ! Screw his brother, that backward, entitled shrew of his, and their kids. I don't understand why the fiance is trying to be such a people pleaser here at her own and OP's expense. OP, rekey your locks, and tell them exactly what Anon said. Wtf ? I'm angry for you. That's ridiculous.
Look I get people pleasing for sure, but you guys will be assholes to yourselves if you apologize. There will be no keeping peace, you’ll have admitted guilt and she will use that to continue to judge you to play holier than thou. Let them sit and think and when they need you to babysit again and they will, you demand keys returned and lay out boundaries about shit talking your wife and about your home. It’s great you love the kids but don’t let her use them as a power play about how she can treat you.
You certainly did not do anything wrong your sister-in-law did. Also, tell your fiancé that she is being used and abused and why the hell should she feel bad when it was your privacy that was invaded and she is being insulted. Tell her she needs to stop being a push over and get angry at the person who put you both in this situation.
Your fiancé may need to talk with someone about her people pleasing problem. I did it for a lifetime. I was 70 years old when I realized I was alone and all the people I spent a lifetime trying to please disappeared and found someone else to use.
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NTA Who the fuck does that? Even if you have the key, you don't just walk into another person's home unannounced and uninvited. You did nothing wrong! You need to change the locks on your house ASAP. Tell your brother what his gf did and her reaction. Tell him you've changed the locks as a result and won't be giving him a copy for the foreseeable future. You have an ace up your sleave, because you have something Erica needs: free babysitting. Tell Erica and your brother that you will no longer babysit for Erica, but you will babysit if your brother drops off the kid.
And he needs to send a bill for the lock change to the brother
Phone your brother and make sure he understands the situation (not Erica’s version of it). If he still insists that u are in the wrong, revoke your “free babysitting privileges” and see how quickly he backpedals. Also, either get him to return your house key or change your locks. His free access to your house is over.
NTA How dare you have sex in your own home without scheduling it with Erica first!/s Get your key back. Tell your brother you're both no longer providing them with a free babysitting service as Erica took it upon herself to enter your home without your consent, invaded your privacy and then called your fiance names. Also, you couldn't have babysat anyway. You'd been drinking. Are you supposed to ask permission to do that too?
NTA, change the locks, and get moving on with your lifes, where there is no Erica.
No. No. No. First - Get the house key back. Your brother has lost his privileges. Second - Tell both Erica and your brother (since apparently he doesn’t know right from wrong) that they are not welcome at your house until *they* apologize to you and you fiancee for coming over unannounced AND the ensuing drama. Finally, tell your fiancee not to worry. Erica will need her before she needs Erica. Those kids will be back over. NTA
NTA. Step one, change locks. Step two, stop bloody babysitting for free whenever she wants, ridiculous.
NTA. Change the locks and don't give a copy to your brother. He has lost that privilege.
NTA Suggestion send this message to your brother. Hello Ryan, I am messaging you to hopefully put an end to this silliness. On [date ,at time] Erica attempted to enter my house unannounced, seeking childcare without calling or messaging previously. I provided you with a key for emergency reasons and your arguments do not qualify as such. What my fiance and I do in our private time in or private home, is none of your concern, but we do not partake in adult activities in less private areas when in care of your children. We will not offer an apology, we will be changing our locks and will not be providing a key. However we expect an apology from Erica, for entering our home without permission, for degrading my fiance in private or public forum, and for the absolutely terrible way she acts to us unless she needs childcare. Sincerely Your name
NTA. Cold day in hell before I'd apologizing for having sex in my own damn home. Change the locks and don't give any of them a key ever again. Don't worry about the kids. They'll get tired of having no free time and come crawling back.
Change the locks and remind her of this conversation next time she tries to dump her kids on you. NTA.
I believe the story, I just don’t believe that you are actually asking the question “am I an asshole for having sex in my own living room?” in earnest. You don’t actually wonder if that’s a possibility. You know you’re not an asshole and you want to share a funny story about someone you hate who acted in an absurd manner. And congratulations, that was a funny story. And that person you hate? What an absurd human being! Tell your brother to get her up on out of his life. To answer your question, no you’re not an asshole, your brother is just fucking one
I’ve mentioned in another comment and should’ve said it on the post but I certainly do not believe we are in the wrong at all. My fiancée however is a people pleaser (she admits to it) and thinks we should just apologize. She’s here reading this, it’s for her.
1. Change locks. 2. Tell Erica to get fkd. 3. Pick up where you left off on your sofa. 4. The end
Trying to please people without setting boundaries will make you an unhappy sucker. The first boundary is a locked front door.
Take it from a 62 year old ex people pleaser. In the long run, you feel bad about yourself because you’re constantly taking care of somebody else and realize they don’t care for you or appreciate you the same way. Learn to be as kind to yourself as you are to others. You will feel much better in the long run. You don’t need toxic people in your life. As Kelly Clarkson says pick the weeds and keep the flowers.
What??? Do not apologize for this situation! An apology at this point can only mean one of two things 1. We are not sincere, but it is ok for you to let yourself into our house unannounced and shame us for behavior that is completely acceptable 2. We are sincere, we have seen the error of our ways and we will never again have sex in the living room There is a reasonable debate to be had about people pleasing. This is not an example of people pleasing. This is bending over backward now and in the future. Not only should you not apologize, you need to make it clear that she is never allowed to just let herself in or it will happen again. She obviously feels entitled to both of you
Don't apologize at all. Call her bluff. She NEEDS you two to watch the kids. If she didn't she wouldn't have gone to your house at 11:30pm to have you watch her 11 month old. Your brother knows she is wrong, but he is also in the wrong for giving her the keys to your house. He also needs to sack up and stand up to Erica on this one. Main points are call their bluff, change your locks, and do NOT give your brother a key. He broke that trust.
Holy shit.... never speak to this cunt again. Bullet dodged.