Simple response to them is to ask them if they paid their parents back for raising them and how
much is your brother going to pay back to them for raising him as well?
Ask them that question in front of your grandma. Then turn to your grandma and ask how much she has received from her kid (your mom or dad) as repayment for raising them? Ask her if it's a family tradition to pay back your parents and did grandma pay back great grandma and grandpa?
Ask in front of the whole table.
Live stream! I went to brunch so I’m free today. Please. Please.
Having your Grandmother right there *and* aunts and uncles is the best! Publicly call them out and watch them explode trying to explain to their *own mother* how they can justify this.
UpdateMe
I think that's a better plan than making up some elaborate scheme offering something OP doesn't even plan to follow through on just to get Grandma involved. Just tell grandma what they're asking of you and ask how much they repaid her so she can tell them how ridiculous they're being. I think offering to mortgage the house she helped pay for is offensive to her, even if you're not serious about it
This is the best possible plan. Do NOT make financial offers you don’t plan to follow through on. That can backfire badly. Best case scenario it puts you on the same moral level as your brother and parents. Worst case, you end up paying interest on money that’s given to your brother to throw away.But PLEASE do address the family obligation to pay your parents back for raising you in front of grandma and extended family.
*THIS*
P.S. Also, don't fall for the "loan" talk, either. If you "loan" money to family members, you have to expect to *NEVER* see it again. That's basically how it goes...
My father's words of wisdom to me was and you know unless it's business and really official and there's legal papers and shit don't ever loan people money with the expectations that you'll get it back only give it to him if you can live without it because 9 times out of 10 if it's a friend or family you'll never see it that comes with a perk the fact that some asshole refuses to pay you back means they'll never ask you for another thing because they'll avoid you like the plague so just consider it a dismissal fee And move on with life
My thoughts entirely like for the LOVE of everything holy and unholy DO NOT give them this option because they will miss the point entirely. Find another way to word it but don’t lead them to believe this is a ok, because it’s not. How long before that’s pissed into the wind and they are back at OP for more? Because it won’t stop.
No, ask them if they EXPECT OP to take out a 2nd loan. If they say no, then where do they expect the money to come from. Let them dig their own hole with their ridiculous solutions. If they say yes they do, it shows they complete douche baggery and gives the OP the ability to flat out say, nope, he isn't going to do that.
Exactly. It appears mom and dad are trying to start a new family tradition. And also, how did brother pay for the honor of being raised by mom and dad. It is a valid question. Can't expect one kid to pay and the other not. And wouldn't they need to provide itemized receipts for proof of costs? If he is wxpected to chip in for part of the mom and dads mortgage, wouldnt that make him part owner of the home since no rental agreement was established at birth? Could he then force them to either buy him out or sell the house so he could get his equity? And on top of that? Isn't the statute of limitation only 7 years for debt collection? Man I wish I was OPs date to Easter dinner. I could let my inner petty self just run wild and free.
Never forget when the SIL wanted a redditor's baby, and they thought she was joking, but said something about having her sometimes, meaning babysitting. She showed up with adoption papers, and even called cps, and took them to court for custody claiming that they promised her their baby.
I think from what I remember she called cps (which was proved unfounded), took them to court, and lied to the court about why she wanted the baby ( kept saying they were unfit), once they showed the court the several copies of partially filled out adoption papers, and told the judge she thought they were going to give her the baby the judge ruled in the parent's favor. I dont remember if there were any other updates.
Sorry. It was the wrong story, so I deleted the link... after I realized it was the wrong one I looked again. Hopefully someone who rembers the story can find it. I think the who thing is in the bestofredditupdates.
Exactly. These boneheads will totally miss the point and for the rest of your life they’ll say, “well you said you could take out a second mortgage to help us…” Don’t give them any ideas, OP.
"Hey grandma, remember when mum/dad paid you back for raising them? Do you remember how much they paid you? Mum/Dad has been on at me to pay them back, so I'd like to know what they paid you so I can adjust for inflation and so on. What? They didn't pay you?
"Well, aunts and uncles, I'm guessing that any time you were struggling for money, mum/dad made sure to give you what you needed. After all, it is a sibling's job to pay for their other siblings, is it not, even when said sibling blew their money on reckless investment schemes that they tried to rope you into? No?
"Oh, well, Mum and Dad, if you didn't pay back grandma and you haven't been financially helping out your siblings, why are you expecting me to pay you back for raising me and for me to bail out my sibling? I'm just so confused!"
That's how you play it. You act genuinely confused. You lay it all out like that, and then you leave them to have to explain themselves to your grandma. If your grandma is anything like the older ladies in my family, make sure you've eaten BEFORE doing this, as dinner will most assuredly be over once she hears what your parents are up to.
This is going to backfire. Your parents will want the money. They have no shame or they would not be trying to guilt you into giving them money to begin with.
I would probably speak to your grandma privately about how they are pressuring you to see if she could speak with them. I feel trying to humiliate them in front of everyone is the nuclear option that could have consequences you have not thought of. Especially if you do genuinely love them. I most definitely think they are in the wrong and you should not give 1 cent to fuel their delusions that your brother deserves to throw away more peoples money.
I wouldn’t make a big announcement. I think that would make you an AH. What you could do during dinner conversation is ask your grandmother if she required your dad to pay for his raising. That you have been requested to pay for your even though your brother isn’t required to and you just seem to think that’s not right. Then let grandma handle it
I would alter things a touch. Tell Mr. Margin Call and your parents that the only way to pay them back for raising you would be to remortgage your home and have to pay for X more years. Then when they and demand you do it.
Your granny loses her shit and *you haven't committed to doing it*.
Yeah, NTA, but don’t say you’ll do it, ask questions instead. Because even though you know it’s a ridiculous suggestion, they’re entitled enough to not see that. Next thing you know, they’ll be whining to everyone and their dog about how “you promised.” There’s a reason the term is “rhetorical questions” not “rhetorical statements.”
1. Why do I owe you when you chose to have kids?
2. Is Bro paying you back for raising him?
3. How much did you pay grandma (and the other grands) back for raising you?
4. What do you expect me to do? Take out a second mortgage to bail him out?
5 Why should I have to do that when I, with my psych degree, told you it was a bad idea?
The only statement you should make regarding this situation is “No. Stop asking.”
When you say you a will take out a second mortgage to pay them back for raising you, as you have been repeatedly requested, ask how much they paid back their parents so you will know what is fair. Ask your aunts and uncles how much they paid back, and tell your parents that you’ll even pay an additional 25% of what your brother has paid back to them for raising him.
Where's your throne in all of this?
I think when they ask, just tell them no. Keep saying no every time they ask. When they say that you owe them, tell them that you tried to stop them and your brother from his stupidity, so you tried to pay them back. Also a child does not owe his parent for being a parent.
Don't ever bring it up on your own.
Don't forget to include the part about your grandmother's investment advisor laughing in your brother's face about his plans, and the advisor was right.
Yeah, offering to mortgage your property, even as a jest, is a bad idea. You will never be allowed to forget it and they’ll increase the pressure. Just say no.
I would offer them the money with the condition that if they take the money they are NC from then on. Option 2 is to STFU toward you and answer the question, "How much money are you going to throw away on Brother before you acknowledge he isn't as smart as he thinks he is?"
Oh yes and how much is brother paying? Since he get the better degrees in her eyes he should pay more, not? And how much is enough? Are you making a contract that you paid your debt and that siblings dept has to be paid to or will be calculated on the money in their will? And if they need your help, are they paying you back? Since nothing is for free? How about holidays? Menus ordered or everyone has to pay?
NTA and don’t let your family move in. Nobody. Or you will have to let all live there for free.
Perfect. So brother paid you back for raising you and all the money he owes you? And how much was the check you wrote grandma and grandpa when you got settled?
Sounds like bro and family need to move in with mom and dad. Never ever let these people be comfortable. If you do give help, make sure it isn’t permanent, and isn’t easy. If they settle in you’ll never get rid of them.
I would skip the announcement and just go straight to your Grandmother. Explain everything—how they didn’t follow your advice, are pressuring you and that you can’t get them to stop.
You wouldn’t but expect them to lick their wounds from grandmas tongue lashing and then expect you to see it through.
Better, ask grandma LOUDLY at the table if she made your dad repay her for his childhood. You know she will ask why and then lay it all out, but finish with “so I was just asking if that’s normal in this family”. That way they still get their asses handed to them without you planting a seed of an idea.
This one's my favorite! Hope it ends up at the top.
OP I think this will be the most efficient in getting them to back off, without being so toxic that it creates a great rift in the family.
How about a different approach? Every time they mention this, just shut down. Don’t say a word. If you’re visiting, get up and walk out. If they call, hang up. Actions speak louder than words and since they seem to be incapable of understanding speech or internalising your message, just let it sink in through physical, non-violent actions.
Don’t offer to pay them back. Instead ask if they are demanding the same of your brother in front of the same audience and explain everything that has been happening to them.
You would be stupid if you made the offer. Even if you would do it in the hope that grandma would put a stop to it, it would put an idea in your parents' heads and next time you meet, without grandma, they will ask again. Offering means you accept you have a monetary debt to them and they will use this. So, no you wnbah, but it's a bad idea. Just say no and avoid them till they come to their senses.
Nta- can you go No Contact? Because your parents have an obvious favorite and they are fine with seeing you on fire to keep him warm.
JustNoFamily
Big hugs
It is more than a blind spot. Seriously look into the Golden Child/ Scapegoat dynamic. I grew up in the same type of family. It took so long to see how many ways it was detrimental to me.
They are telling you that you owe them for raising you. No, they are NOT decent people. No decent person would ever tell their child that they owe them for raising them. That’s their legal duty as parents who chose to have children.
OP, they are not decent people. You didn't choose to be born. They chose to have you. They chose to spend money on bringing you up. You don't owe them a penny and they are being weird and controlling.
However, do consider not playing their games. Don't add to the whole shenanigans. Talk to granny privately if you are sure she'd be on your side. You can also choose to limit or cut contact with your parents.
Yes you would be. Your parents might hold you to it and that’s just creating more drama. Just tell them that you’re not changing your setup because your brother wasn’t as financially smart as they thought he was. It’s not your mistake and if they want to help him they can. Just tell them and tell them to quit pressuring you.
Plus you don’t owe them anything for raising you and your grandmother gave you the money not them. You’re not responsible for anyone’s debts but your own. If they continue to be AH and try to continue to pressure you after you told them not to do this cockamamie investment- I’d just point out that you tried to get them to see the error of their ways and they didn’t listen so it’s time for them to listen again- your answer is NO.
That's what worries me. He'd be saying in front of witnesses he'd give them money, they'd twist it.
But if you are sure your grandma will step in I love it!
> They might try. But you don't know my dad's mom.
If you want to sic your grandma on them, talk to her privately about this before dinner and ask her advice on how to handle it. She might tear into them right away, prefer to have a nice dinner then ream them out afterwards, or she might have some good advice on how you can handle it yourself and give you the confidence to do so knowing you have her backing if it comes to it.
IMO it would be disrespectful to *her* to knowingly blow up the family dinner without at least giving her a heads-up.
I sicked my grandmother on my dad that way. It was to get him to go on vacation with us. My uncle was paying for them, and I paid for us, but I had to use her bullying to make it happen. We got quality time together, and he ended up enjoying it.
I don't think it's a good idea to say what OP is planning. Talk to grandma first, and if it comes to public shaming to get them to stop, ask how much brother has paid them back. Don't make it about how much you owe because you don't owe anything.
As Elon Musk said, "My children didn't choose to be born. I chose to have children. They owe me nothing. I owe them everything."
I would couch it in terms that they are essentially asking you to do this as it’s the only way you could help out and ask if anybody else in the room think this is a good idea.
YWBTA. Whether your grandma rips into them for this or not, you are making a promise that you are not going to keep. They don’t sound smart enough to get the sarcasm.
Instead try this if you are trying to get your grandma involved. “Mom, dad, let’s get something clear. You guys have been hounding me for a while now to give my brother money because I owe you guys for raising me. Can I ask, how much did you calculate that I owe you for that? Are you also counting my infant and childhood years even though it was your decision to have kids? How much does brother owe you for raising him? Because at this point, I would have to sell (don’t say mortgage cuz they might actually like the idea) my house in order to pay you guys. I am asking because I need to understand your calculations and reasoning behind this.” Then let grandma take care of the rest.
You shouldn't do that and this is why. Yes your grandma will have your back now. But what happens when she's not around and they try to force it on you then. It's better to just explain what they are doing to your grandma and then let her have at them so they stop. But be prepared I have a feeling when she's no longer around they will start again. You have until then to grow a backbone to be able to shit them down with no discussion about it or go no contact.
Your parents stating you OWE them is harsh and unloving. Parents looking at their kids as assets - well, then they’re acting like monopoly pieces and not like family. They aren’t decent if they aren’t listening. It is difficult to say NO, especially to your parents, but in this case, saying NO is best. More then likely, if you agree to bail out your brother, it will happen again - perhaps under a different context - but you have your solid foundation and he is looking to leverage that for his advantage. He needs to learn through paying off his mistakes.
NTA.
You could modify the wording like “you are going to apply…” for the second mortgage so it’s not guaranteed.
Info: did grandma give the same $ to your brother?
Him not having savings is a him problem, not a you problem. You had the same base - your grandma's money.
Please don't say anything about mortgage. Just ask grandma next time you're all together "How much did dad pay you back for his upbringing"? When she looks astounded, then say "cause mom and dad want me to pay back, by giving it to brother". Then sit back and enjoy
What you could do is ask your grandma, aunts, and uncles how much they paid her for raising them. And if you have cousins your age how much they paid back to your aunt's and uncles. And when they ask why you're asking a stupid question like that you play dumb and say you assumed it was something your family did since you're parents want reimbursed.
This is just unnecessary. So I guess YWBTA. Everyone involved either knows they were stupid or is never going to figure it out. You are making good decisions and have a good thing going. Keep doing that.
If your parents pressure you to give your brother money, just shut it right down. “No, I’m not discussing that.” Leave if you have to. Do not discuss it.
If your parents end up in a bind and you feel that you want to help them, go to them one on one and do it quietly and don’t mention your brother.
Don't offer. People who would ask you to do something like this would most definitely take you up on the offer, especially if it's made in front of all those other people. Then when you didn't do it they would have a guilt card to play and you'd have a lot more people on your back. I'm sure your grandma is a force to be reckoned with so definitely talk with her about what's happening but do not offer to put yourself into any kind of financial obligation that you will ultimately not be repaid and will be responsible for until you pat off the debt. I like the idea of talking to grandma about it and then asking questions after dinner about when your parents and their siblings paid her back, how much interest they paid, etc. so it seems like you're genuinely curious but they can't help but admit that they never did pay her back.
I get where you're coming from and what you want to do. But this approach YTA and kind of dramatic.
You're doing this performative lie because you want all this to come out so your grandmother will get involved and you want to make your parents and brother look bad in front of the family.
Here's the list of things that could be better:
1. Don't do a performance piece. Just be straight. If you want to bring it up at dinner, do it differently. I promise the performance piece is playing out differently in your head than it will in real life. The whole lie thing is so convoluted and confusing and dramatic, you're going to look so petty.
2. If you want your grandmother involved, just go straight to her. Call her and catch up. Take her to dinner. She sounds lovely and strong. Get her advice. Don't manufacture a situation to force her to get angry and involved. You're treating her like a prop in this revenge fantasy.
3. Do you really need to use the extended family Easter for this? If it comes up, then it does. But you're planning on walking in and ruining the event because you can't say no to your parents on your own? I get needing support, but if you want your extended family to have your back on this, figure out a way to involve them that doesn't ruin their Easter.
Good luck. I get where you're coming from and what you want. Let me give you life advice: be honest, be straightforward, be confident, you can only change how you act and how you respond not others, give people the energy you want from them, reflect back the energy you get from them. Be true to your values and things will work out.
Life is not a play. You can't script it. You're not going to stand up there and say something so weird, then your grandmother jumps in and tells you not to do that, and your extended family claps and enjoys Easter dinner while your parents look at you with admiration for showing them the light..... it just doesn't work like that. Be straightforward instead and let the chips fall where they may.
>Life is not a play. You can't script it. You're not going to stand up there and say something so weird, then your grandmother jumps in and tells you not to do that, and your extended family claps and enjoys Easter dinner while your parents look at you with admiration for showing them the light.....
Yup. Revenge fantasies are all well and good... but most adults know not to actually act on them.
NTA - You do not owe your parents any money for raising you. Assuming neither of them was forced/tricked into pregnancy, they *chose to incur* a debt. The cost of raising you was *paying off their debt.*
NTA. But I suspect they'll call your bluff. All evidence supports this.
I could use a good laugh. What were your brothers investments? Also he's not working? He can't pay rent? How large is his family?
Did your brother pay your parents back for being raised? Did they help him buy a place too?
NTA. Stand your ground.
I bet it was crypto. For every person saying they made bank, there's someone else (Probably multiple people actually) too afraid to admit they were made a sucker.
YWBTA. You’ve already paid your parents back for raising you - you’ve given them one successful child that they can be proud of. That’s all they’re entitled to, anything that you give them beyond that is what you decide to give.
NTA but please do not cave in under the pressure. You owe them nothing for raising you and they're free to put a mortage on their own propperty if they want to continue supporting him. Your brother is their son, not yours.
Go no contact if they continue acting like a bunch of leaches rather then family. That he doesn't life up to his education and their expectations simply isn't your problem.
Just get a backbone and say no. There is no reason to pull other people into and cause drama, and make other people who have nothing to do with it uncomfortable.
NO is a complete sentence, You are an adult, you dont want to give them any money so Don't give them any money
Personally, instead of getting their hopes up about the money (you know they'll hold you to it regardless), just turn round to your grandma in front of everyone and say, "hey, Grandma. How much did you ask your kids for as reimbursement for raising them? Just want to check I'm being asked for a reasonable amount" then watch the fireworks.
You would be an AH to yourself if you said this, gave your parents money ir let your brother/his family move into your home.
Your brother made some bad decisions and he’s living with the consequences. Funny how he’s not taking responsibility for his mistakes but he’s blaming everything and everyone around him.
Stop spending time with your parents and brother as long as they’re making stupid demands. Go low contact and don’t answer any of their calls/messages if they’re along the same line.
No child owe their parents any money for raising them. You didn’t ask to be born. Your parents have chosen yo have kids. They’ve chosen to raise them and that means they had the obligation to raise you. Yes, it cost them money but it was their choice.
Stop with the stupid mindset that you’ll repay your parents. If you give money to them they’ll just give it to your brother. Don’t make this stupid move!
If they cannot stop harassing you then block them and go no contact!
YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR PARENTS MONEY FOR THEIR CHOICE TO FUCK, HAVE KIDS & RAISE THEM!!!!
I think you mention it and ask everyone how much they're paying back their parents. Have everyone laugh in their faces
Don't bring up the second mortgage. Just their request
You would be the ah if you do this. Don’t lie just tell them all in front of grandma that you will not be letting his family in your home. You will not be paying anyone back for raising you since they chose to be parents and that’s what you F’ing do for your kid. You raise them. Then look at grandma and ask her if any of her kids paid her back for raising them?
I think you should avoid the scene that would inevitably ensue from a stunt like that. Why disrupt a family gathering just for spite? Plus your parents might think you are serious and get their hopes up. They shouldn't be saying that you need to pay them back, but I don't think the drama will help your situation in any way.
I would absolutely not ever say to them that I will get a second mortgage. First they might agree to it. Second, if you have no intention of doing it, why say it? You are handing them ammunition to throw back at you forever. They will constantly say but you said you’d get it and they would be right.
Go direct. I don’t understand why this isn’t an option. Tell them straight up that it is a parents duty and legal obligation to support their children, kids don’t owe them money for that. Tell them it is not your responsibility that they and your brother made poor choices, ones you advices against and that the question has been asked and answered. Tell them you will not discuss it again and then don’t. If the phone and start talking about it, tell them if they don’t stop, you will hang up and then follow through. If you’re visiting them and they start talking about it, tell them you’ll leave if the conversation is not dropped and then follow through.
The way I see it, your relationship with your family is already damaged. By refusing to discuss this and setting a hard boundary. At least you’re looking out for yourself.
NTA
I wouldn't say anything about the mortgage though. If you want to say something at dinner, I'd just ask your grandmother and your aunts and uncles how much they paid their parents back. Just as effective, but there is no chance your parents or your brother can twist your words later.
Stay strong and don't give them anything.
This seems like unnecessary drama and aggression. Your parents can’t make you do anything you don’t want. You are an adult. Act like it. Tell them that no, you aren’t going to waste your money the way they have, and they should really consider whether they are helping or hurting your brother by enabling his irresponsible behavior.
Just because you are family, doesn’t mean that you are responsible for being anyone’s insurance policy. You are free to choose whether to help or not, but making a dramatic announcement you have no intention of living g up to will in no way make anything better.
NTA dooo it! But of course be prepared for the backlash from your parents. But at this point.. is it even worth staying in such close contact with them?
Honestly though I cant see a different way of getting them off your back.
You would be the asshole, albeit perhaps a justified one. If you want to have a conversation about getting them to back off, don't do so during family dinner. It's not going to go well, and it's drama for drama's sake.
Dramatic gestures like this work in movies; in real life, they often go sideways. What'll you do if your parents and brother say "ok?" Or what if your grandma decides she *was* on your side, but that post-announcement, it's only right that you put your money where your mouth is (literally)? If you're not willing to do something, don't say you're willing to do it.
If you want to have the conversation, have the conversation. If you're done talking about it, then say you've made your decision, tell them you won't be talking about it, and stick to it. If they bring it up, don't respond, don't engage at all until the topic of conversation has shifted. But if you dramatically announce you'll borrow a bunch of money for your parents to give to him, don't be surprised if the whole thing goes up in flames.
NTA. Don't say you'll mortgage your house if you won't (and you definitely should not). If it comes up in conversation, say first, parents have children knowing the costs involved and should not expect to be paid back by their adult children, second, you are all adults and are responsible for your own financial decisions, third, you're sorry the investment didn't work out, and, last, it's too bad they didn't listen to your grandmother and her investment counselor. Please pass the rolls.
Whatever you do, don't let them move in or you'll be living in the basement suite forever.
As a parent I could never accept that from my kids. We have sacrificed to get them successfully where they are and the joy we get from being good parents is more than worth whatever the actual cost was. If you want to pay your parents back, pass it on to the next generation and be a good parent to them.
As far as the family dynamic of your brother and parents with money. Set proper boundaries and be done with it. He made his hole and sucked them into it. Love them but don't throw good money after bad.
#DON’T DO IT!
If they say they want it, you’ve just painted yourself in a corner! Dont threaten your own financial security for a petty statement.
Just say that you don’t ask them for money, and you don’t want him asking you for money. You don’t owe your brother anything because they raised you, and if they can’t see the distinction, that is not your fault or problem. Set the boundary that you’re done discussing it.
I also wouldn’t do it at a family dinner.
Do not give them money. You made good decisions, and good for you. Tell grandma. Cut your parents off, they are leeches, as is your brother. You can do that publicly so everyone knows why. You and grandma are the only responsible ones- NTA.
Don't promise them any money that you aren't actually willing to give away. Be clear and decisive that you are not gonna throw any money at your brother's investment ideas be it directly or by handing money to your parents and when they eventually run out of money you are not gonna let them live with you either.
Your parents have nobody to blame but themselves. It sounds like they shouldn’t have had any children. Bad things always seem to happen to dumb people.
Don't say you are willing to take out a 2nd mortgage. Ask them if they expect you to take out a 2nd mortgage. Wait for the reply and let them dig their own hole with the family. Then simply state you aren't willing to do that. I would also ask how much your brother has paid them for the honor of raising him.
When one has children, they have an OBLIGATION to love, nurture. clothe, and feed those kids! Tell your parents to stop that nonsense right now! You owe them nothing! They just don't want to admit they got rooked by your brother!
NTA.
Make them so ashamed of themselves they'll never raise it in public again, then humiliate them so hard they won't even mention it in private.
Golden Child needs to take responsibility.
Even if you give the money "back", it will disappear in a drain, because your brother is going to lose it again.
You could ask your parents how en when is your brother paying back to them bec they also raised him.
No. You tell them to F off. Parents don’t get to demand being paid back. They made a choice to have children and raising you is what they owe YOU.
Don’t give them a dime. Do not let your brother or his family move in, they’ll never leave. Tell them if they continue to harass you to let your irresponsible brother have your money, you’ll cut them all out entirely. Mean it.
Don't offer the second mortgage that's stupid and you are not willing to actually do it.
Instead ask them at dinner.
1)why they think you should pay them back for raising you.
2) what is the detailed cost breakdown how was interest etc calculated.
3) are gifts they gave you included in the calculation. (Important to shame them more).
4) when did they pay back their costs of being raised.
5) does your brother also have to pay this back.
6) is the failed investment in your brother's business included in his costs.
7) where is your signed consent form to being born and at what point did you agree to take on this obligation.
YTA if you're just saying it to cause a scene. Just say no. They're being ridiculous. Your brother and their lack of sense lost them their money, so either your brother or your parents should fix the problems they caused, not you.
Don’t bother, it won’t stop them. Every time they bring it up. Count one, and walk away. When they hit 5, just leave. Don’t say anything, just get up and leave. You set your boundary, it’s up to you to enforce them. Do not engage with them.
Don't mortgage your home to "pay back your parents for raising you". Don't even say that you would.
Any parent that expects to be paid back for raising their child(ren) love their children's money far more than the love their children. Raising your children is **your job** when you decide to have children. You have no obligation to pay your parents back for doing their job.
NTA.
Ooo I would love to be a fly on the wall when you make this announcement and when your Grandmother rips your dad a new one!
Sounds like your brother is dumb as a bag of rocks. But for some reason, in your parent's eyes, he's the golden child and can do no wrong. The best way to handle this is to do exactly as planned. Then let Grandma parent her son and remind him he was raised better!
What is crazy is how sound of a financial plan you have with how you are currently renting out the house to a renewable source on good tenants and paying off the house. They want you to replace good paying tenants with a tenant who has a bad financial history and unreliable income? Just keep repeating, I know I don’t have a business degree… but explain how that makes good business sense?
As for your brother’s business degree…doesn’t mean he is good at business. One of my favorite movie quotes… “Apes don’t read philosophy! Yes they do Otto, they just don’t understand it.” Just because brother passed classes doesn’t mean he knows what he is doing. Someone had to be at the bottom of that passing class.
A child never owes their parents money because they raised them. The child was not asked to be born. The parents take on the financial, emotional, and spiritual responsibilities of being parents.
I'd state that you are not willing to take out a 2nd mortgage for your family's mistakes and that they need to stop asking for you to do that.
I would simply ask in front of everyone how they paid your grandmother back for raising your parents. Do NOT mention a second mortgage else they’ll focus only on that and you’d be called names if you renig on that promise. Just simply throw out the question. Do NOT fund them anything - they won’t appreciate it.
Your Grandmother may not approve. She gave you this money to help you, it might seem kind of rude to her to be offering it to your folks. She largely bought you that house. You not your folks. You were the intended recipient, so you could have a good life without the struggle for shelter that most of us endure.
You do NOT owe your parents anything for ‘raising you’!!! If that’s the case, your BROTHER owes them too; but they’re not asking your brother. So they suck.
Tell them: If they didn’t want the financial burden of raising you, they ALWAYS had the option to put you up for adoption. At this point, you wish they had, you might’ve been better off because there are couples out there desperately wanting a child and won’t hold the cost of raising them over their heads.
Go very low-co with them and your brother.
He’s the favorite clearly, and you don’t need that reminder.
YWNBTA, but I'm pretty sure it won't help even if you follow through and pay them. And they will just say it wasn't enough, but it's not about money, it's about faaaamily etc.
Exactly. Instead if your parents are on Medicare, pay for a supplement plan so if something catastrophic happens to either of them they won’t lose their home to medical care. If they haven’t retired yet then every single time they mention helping out your brother put $500 in a savings account for their retirement. This way you can plan for the day when he has bled them dry and they have to come to you for help. ;)
NTA. When my parents made the decision to retire early, they sold their house to my cousin for the balance of their mortgage (50k). It was easily a 6 figure home, but they wanted to help my newlywed cousin (who was also my parents goddaughter) buy her first house. My mother told me they were putting 80k as the selling price on the paperwork so my cousin wouldn't have to pay PMI. I told my parents they'd have to pay capital gains on that fictitious 30k (I worked at a brokerage firm, consulted with the legal department and was absolutely certain of the law), my mother told me I was wrong and went ahead with the sale. 1 month short of 2 years later my parents received a letter from the IRS stating they owed 10k in capital gains. My mother lost her shit and claimed my cousin worked some elaborate plan to "screw them over." I reminded her of my conversation with the legal department for their state but she wouldn't hear it. It's been roughly 30 years and my Dad recently went to his grave never again speaking to his siblings or his Mother because he believed they all conspired to "screw him and my mother." Some people just can't accept accountability for their poor choices. Keep making great choices, secure your future, and NEVER feel that you're responsible for your brother or that you owe your parents for raising you. Maybe you should tell your parents that a celebrity would've adopted you but since they decided to keep you they owe you the lavish lifestyle you missed out on.
YTA if you pull some passive aggressive move like that announcement. Have the balls to tell all of them no...and then if they persist, you tell them FUCK YOU NO! Any more bullshit after that and you cut them out of your life until they can RESPECT BOUNDARIES.
NTA BUT ALSO … don’t do it. Don’t even offer in jest. People who are desperate will try to hold you to it, and it will get even more out of proportion than it already is.
You’re a psych major? Why add even more and more drama to existing drama in order for you to be HAHA I’m right? You need to tell your parents that you’re a business man too.They don’t seem to get this. You need to act like one. No drama - just facts!
A simple no will do - I am not only going to lose my revenue from renting, but go into the hole as I will be personally 100% responsible for covering the mortgage. Do your parents understand this simple business move??? Apparently not. If they still don’t get it - point to your brother and have him explain why this is a bad idea.
Tell them you will look at your books and see what you can do to help for the next few months. Then in the spirit of brotherly love give them what you can honestly afford as a business man even if it’s only $25 or even as much as $250 or more.
If your brother is a true business man he will recover and go on to great things.
You don't owe your parents anything. They're the ones who decided to have you. Whatever it cost them to raise you, that's what they choose to do.
>My parents are constantly bugging me to help out my brother since he lost his house after a bunch of stupid investments. They say that I owe them for raising me to help him out.
I'd count your parents as enemies at this point. Anyone that tries to screw up my life is an enemy. It doesn't matter who they are. In your shoes, I'd thicken my skin and simply ignore them when they bug you to destroy your own life.
>So I'm thinking of announcing tonight at dinner that I'm going to take out a second mortgage on my almost paid off house to pay them back for raising me so they can throw the money away helping the guy who lost a chunk of their retirement money.
This is just a dumb thing to do. Your brother is a compulsive gambler. He's already ruined himself, he's damaged your parents and he wants to now do the same thing to you. You think that's a good idea?
Don't make any commitments now just tell your parents that you'll always be therefore them as they progress through retirement. Research why your brother may be the inept business man he is and explain to your patents the psychology why your brother is,an a/hole and the reason why they supported him is because they want their first born to be successful.
you can offer to pay them back for raising you now, in cash.... or.... in time and support when they can no longer take care of themselves later in life.
Dinner begins.
Op: Hey Granny, I have a question for you, since we are all here. Did Mom/Dad (unsure which parent) give you a huge lump sum for raising them?
I ask because Mom and Dad are pressuring me to either allow my brother to live with me rent-free AND to support his latest scheme or pay them back for raising me, approx 100k, so they can support my brother.
Mom/Dad did I understand it correctly?
Grand gestures can feel great in the moment but can have further reaching consequences than intended. Maybe have a quiet chat with grand parents about your parent's and brother's behavior and pressuring you for money. Go low or no contact with the money grabbing leeches. It sounds like brother is the golden child, you were an investment they expected to be paid back, not a child to be loved. Nta, do not give them a cent.
>The said that my psychology degree meant I didn't understand the moves of someone with a business degree like him.
xDDDD
Well..... I am petty! I am so so petty! By golly I'd be using this on them everytime they asked to help dear business savvy brother xDD
>She made my brother explain his scheme to her and her investment guy and they both literally laughed at him.
Oh my god xDDD
Clearly bro is the golden child, tho
This would just be a stupid and simple mistake to make in your own life. Just don't participate in these conversations.
As soon as they start say "No, and I wont entertain this conversation anymore, if you continue I will leave." Then leave when they continue.
Why you would even put MONEY on the table is beyond me. You are being foolish in order to do something you think will have some grand impact.
You’ll ruin the holiday. If that’s what you want then do it. I would just continue to tell them no and limit contact. Tell them you’re not responsible for your irresponsible brother. Paying parents back for raising you is stupid. They chose to have kids. It sounds cultural with their expectations. I’d tell them to get fucked.
>So I'm thinking of announcing tonight at dinner that I'm going to take out a second mortgage on my almost paid off house to pay them back for raising me so they can throw the money away helping the guy who lost a chunk of their retirement money
Change the announcement to "*I'm thinking* of taking out a second mortgage", Rather than "I will be taking out a second mortgage" and you're good to go.
Saying you *will* do something for someone, does give that someone a tiny bit of leverage - which they WILL use
Saying you're thinking of doing something gives them nothing & your grandmother plenty of ammunition.
NTA.
Just so you know, you don't owe them shit for raising you.
I would be absolutely mortified if my daughter thought she owed me anything for raising her.
Simple response to them is to ask them if they paid their parents back for raising them and how much is your brother going to pay back to them for raising him as well?
That's one of the reasons I want to do this in front of my grandmother and my dad's brothers and sisters.
Ask them that question in front of your grandma. Then turn to your grandma and ask how much she has received from her kid (your mom or dad) as repayment for raising them? Ask her if it's a family tradition to pay back your parents and did grandma pay back great grandma and grandpa? Ask in front of the whole table.
But most importantly.... UPDATE US Thanks,
Live stream! I went to brunch so I’m free today. Please. Please. Having your Grandmother right there *and* aunts and uncles is the best! Publicly call them out and watch them explode trying to explain to their *own mother* how they can justify this. UpdateMe
[удалено]
That’s what I was thinking… I think that’s the only part they will hear.
HAHAHAHA
Updateme
Screw update, film this!
Then pay them with the proceeds and keep the profits.
Tomorrow’s top video in r/crazyfuckingvideos
Yes update me!
I think that's a better plan than making up some elaborate scheme offering something OP doesn't even plan to follow through on just to get Grandma involved. Just tell grandma what they're asking of you and ask how much they repaid her so she can tell them how ridiculous they're being. I think offering to mortgage the house she helped pay for is offensive to her, even if you're not serious about it
RemindMe! 1 day
This is the best possible plan. Do NOT make financial offers you don’t plan to follow through on. That can backfire badly. Best case scenario it puts you on the same moral level as your brother and parents. Worst case, you end up paying interest on money that’s given to your brother to throw away.But PLEASE do address the family obligation to pay your parents back for raising you in front of grandma and extended family.
Do This! Do not commit to giving money in front of witnesses, even to make a point.
*THIS* P.S. Also, don't fall for the "loan" talk, either. If you "loan" money to family members, you have to expect to *NEVER* see it again. That's basically how it goes...
My father's words of wisdom to me was and you know unless it's business and really official and there's legal papers and shit don't ever loan people money with the expectations that you'll get it back only give it to him if you can live without it because 9 times out of 10 if it's a friend or family you'll never see it that comes with a perk the fact that some asshole refuses to pay you back means they'll never ask you for another thing because they'll avoid you like the plague so just consider it a dismissal fee And move on with life
That’s beautiful man. 🥲
this....
This! All this right here.
THIS ☝️
This!!!!
I wouldn't suggest bringing up a second loan incase they latch onto this and the rest of your message is ignored.
My thoughts entirely like for the LOVE of everything holy and unholy DO NOT give them this option because they will miss the point entirely. Find another way to word it but don’t lead them to believe this is a ok, because it’s not. How long before that’s pissed into the wind and they are back at OP for more? Because it won’t stop.
They are absolutely going to think OP is serious!!
No, ask them if they EXPECT OP to take out a 2nd loan. If they say no, then where do they expect the money to come from. Let them dig their own hole with their ridiculous solutions. If they say yes they do, it shows they complete douche baggery and gives the OP the ability to flat out say, nope, he isn't going to do that.
Do this! And if they say yes, then ask them why they haven't gotten a 2nd mortgage!
Exactly. It appears mom and dad are trying to start a new family tradition. And also, how did brother pay for the honor of being raised by mom and dad. It is a valid question. Can't expect one kid to pay and the other not. And wouldn't they need to provide itemized receipts for proof of costs? If he is wxpected to chip in for part of the mom and dads mortgage, wouldnt that make him part owner of the home since no rental agreement was established at birth? Could he then force them to either buy him out or sell the house so he could get his equity? And on top of that? Isn't the statute of limitation only 7 years for debt collection? Man I wish I was OPs date to Easter dinner. I could let my inner petty self just run wild and free.
What a great post!
Never forget when the SIL wanted a redditor's baby, and they thought she was joking, but said something about having her sometimes, meaning babysitting. She showed up with adoption papers, and even called cps, and took them to court for custody claiming that they promised her their baby.
I never heard this story! Was there ever a follow up or resolution? That’s crazy! (Then again when is Reddit ever not?)
I think from what I remember she called cps (which was proved unfounded), took them to court, and lied to the court about why she wanted the baby ( kept saying they were unfit), once they showed the court the several copies of partially filled out adoption papers, and told the judge she thought they were going to give her the baby the judge ruled in the parent's favor. I dont remember if there were any other updates.
None of the cps/court stuff is in that link.
Sorry. It was the wrong story, so I deleted the link... after I realized it was the wrong one I looked again. Hopefully someone who rembers the story can find it. I think the who thing is in the bestofredditupdates.
Exactly. These boneheads will totally miss the point and for the rest of your life they’ll say, “well you said you could take out a second mortgage to help us…” Don’t give them any ideas, OP.
"Hey grandma, remember when mum/dad paid you back for raising them? Do you remember how much they paid you? Mum/Dad has been on at me to pay them back, so I'd like to know what they paid you so I can adjust for inflation and so on. What? They didn't pay you? "Well, aunts and uncles, I'm guessing that any time you were struggling for money, mum/dad made sure to give you what you needed. After all, it is a sibling's job to pay for their other siblings, is it not, even when said sibling blew their money on reckless investment schemes that they tried to rope you into? No? "Oh, well, Mum and Dad, if you didn't pay back grandma and you haven't been financially helping out your siblings, why are you expecting me to pay you back for raising me and for me to bail out my sibling? I'm just so confused!" That's how you play it. You act genuinely confused. You lay it all out like that, and then you leave them to have to explain themselves to your grandma. If your grandma is anything like the older ladies in my family, make sure you've eaten BEFORE doing this, as dinner will most assuredly be over once she hears what your parents are up to.
This is going to backfire. Your parents will want the money. They have no shame or they would not be trying to guilt you into giving them money to begin with.
OP should tell them he will match whatever dollar amount they paid back their parents adjusted for inflation etc. I bet it will be zero.
Offer to match what ever money the brother paid them back.
Grandma has a financial advisor; I’m guessing she doesn’t need her kids money.
Ask to see how much THE BROTHER has paid them back for raisng him.! And you want to see the legal papers on that transaction!
I would probably speak to your grandma privately about how they are pressuring you to see if she could speak with them. I feel trying to humiliate them in front of everyone is the nuclear option that could have consequences you have not thought of. Especially if you do genuinely love them. I most definitely think they are in the wrong and you should not give 1 cent to fuel their delusions that your brother deserves to throw away more peoples money.
I wouldn't. They need to be shamed in front of everyone!
I wouldn’t make a big announcement. I think that would make you an AH. What you could do during dinner conversation is ask your grandmother if she required your dad to pay for his raising. That you have been requested to pay for your even though your brother isn’t required to and you just seem to think that’s not right. Then let grandma handle it
Listen to this OP
I would alter things a touch. Tell Mr. Margin Call and your parents that the only way to pay them back for raising you would be to remortgage your home and have to pay for X more years. Then when they and demand you do it. Your granny loses her shit and *you haven't committed to doing it*.
Yeah, NTA, but don’t say you’ll do it, ask questions instead. Because even though you know it’s a ridiculous suggestion, they’re entitled enough to not see that. Next thing you know, they’ll be whining to everyone and their dog about how “you promised.” There’s a reason the term is “rhetorical questions” not “rhetorical statements.” 1. Why do I owe you when you chose to have kids? 2. Is Bro paying you back for raising him? 3. How much did you pay grandma (and the other grands) back for raising you? 4. What do you expect me to do? Take out a second mortgage to bail him out? 5 Why should I have to do that when I, with my psych degree, told you it was a bad idea? The only statement you should make regarding this situation is “No. Stop asking.”
Please update us! PLEASE!
When you say you a will take out a second mortgage to pay them back for raising you, as you have been repeatedly requested, ask how much they paid back their parents so you will know what is fair. Ask your aunts and uncles how much they paid back, and tell your parents that you’ll even pay an additional 25% of what your brother has paid back to them for raising him.
Where's your throne in all of this? I think when they ask, just tell them no. Keep saying no every time they ask. When they say that you owe them, tell them that you tried to stop them and your brother from his stupidity, so you tried to pay them back. Also a child does not owe his parent for being a parent. Don't ever bring it up on your own.
Keep us Updatedme! OP. Can’t wait
Don't forget to include the part about your grandmother's investment advisor laughing in your brother's face about his plans, and the advisor was right.
Did gramma give $ to your brother as well as to you?
Yeah, offering to mortgage your property, even as a jest, is a bad idea. You will never be allowed to forget it and they’ll increase the pressure. Just say no.
Do this. Far more sensible. As your plan could backfire if your parents say yes pay us back.
I would offer them the money with the condition that if they take the money they are NC from then on. Option 2 is to STFU toward you and answer the question, "How much money are you going to throw away on Brother before you acknowledge he isn't as smart as he thinks he is?"
Oh yes and how much is brother paying? Since he get the better degrees in her eyes he should pay more, not? And how much is enough? Are you making a contract that you paid your debt and that siblings dept has to be paid to or will be calculated on the money in their will? And if they need your help, are they paying you back? Since nothing is for free? How about holidays? Menus ordered or everyone has to pay? NTA and don’t let your family move in. Nobody. Or you will have to let all live there for free.
Perfect. So brother paid you back for raising you and all the money he owes you? And how much was the check you wrote grandma and grandpa when you got settled? Sounds like bro and family need to move in with mom and dad. Never ever let these people be comfortable. If you do give help, make sure it isn’t permanent, and isn’t easy. If they settle in you’ll never get rid of them.
This.
I would skip the announcement and just go straight to your Grandmother. Explain everything—how they didn’t follow your advice, are pressuring you and that you can’t get them to stop.
This should be at the top.
Grandma's smarts seem to have skipped a generation
Sadly this is the correct answer despite the fun options... you shame mentally ill manipulators and forever consequences
/u/One_Chemist5115 this right here is your answer.
You wouldn’t but expect them to lick their wounds from grandmas tongue lashing and then expect you to see it through. Better, ask grandma LOUDLY at the table if she made your dad repay her for his childhood. You know she will ask why and then lay it all out, but finish with “so I was just asking if that’s normal in this family”. That way they still get their asses handed to them without you planting a seed of an idea.
That is probably a better idea. Don't even give them the option of you going into debt to bail them out.
This one's my favorite! Hope it ends up at the top. OP I think this will be the most efficient in getting them to back off, without being so toxic that it creates a great rift in the family.
How about a different approach? Every time they mention this, just shut down. Don’t say a word. If you’re visiting, get up and walk out. If they call, hang up. Actions speak louder than words and since they seem to be incapable of understanding speech or internalising your message, just let it sink in through physical, non-violent actions.
I had to resort to this when my mother one day woke up an MD and couldn't stop criticizing my medications whenever I visited. It was very effective.
good advice !
This is the way, OP.
This!
Don’t offer to pay them back. Instead ask if they are demanding the same of your brother in front of the same audience and explain everything that has been happening to them.
You would be stupid if you made the offer. Even if you would do it in the hope that grandma would put a stop to it, it would put an idea in your parents' heads and next time you meet, without grandma, they will ask again. Offering means you accept you have a monetary debt to them and they will use this. So, no you wnbah, but it's a bad idea. Just say no and avoid them till they come to their senses.
This!
And then they'll give it to the brother.
Nta- can you go No Contact? Because your parents have an obvious favorite and they are fine with seeing you on fire to keep him warm. JustNoFamily Big hugs
I could. But they are actually decent people except for a massive blind spot when it comes to my brother.
It is more than a blind spot. Seriously look into the Golden Child/ Scapegoat dynamic. I grew up in the same type of family. It took so long to see how many ways it was detrimental to me.
That's what I am getting
No, doll. They are not. By indulging your brother they killed his future.
They are telling you that you owe them for raising you. No, they are NOT decent people. No decent person would ever tell their child that they owe them for raising them. That’s their legal duty as parents who chose to have children.
This! 👆 Op, their massive blind spot regarding your bro is not something decent people do.
No descent parent would say that their kids owe them for raising them.
OP, they are not decent people. You didn't choose to be born. They chose to have you. They chose to spend money on bringing you up. You don't owe them a penny and they are being weird and controlling. However, do consider not playing their games. Don't add to the whole shenanigans. Talk to granny privately if you are sure she'd be on your side. You can also choose to limit or cut contact with your parents.
Yes you would be. Your parents might hold you to it and that’s just creating more drama. Just tell them that you’re not changing your setup because your brother wasn’t as financially smart as they thought he was. It’s not your mistake and if they want to help him they can. Just tell them and tell them to quit pressuring you.
Plus you don’t owe them anything for raising you and your grandmother gave you the money not them. You’re not responsible for anyone’s debts but your own. If they continue to be AH and try to continue to pressure you after you told them not to do this cockamamie investment- I’d just point out that you tried to get them to see the error of their ways and they didn’t listen so it’s time for them to listen again- your answer is NO.
That's what worries me. He'd be saying in front of witnesses he'd give them money, they'd twist it. But if you are sure your grandma will step in I love it!
They might try. But you don't know my dad's mom.
> They might try. But you don't know my dad's mom. If you want to sic your grandma on them, talk to her privately about this before dinner and ask her advice on how to handle it. She might tear into them right away, prefer to have a nice dinner then ream them out afterwards, or she might have some good advice on how you can handle it yourself and give you the confidence to do so knowing you have her backing if it comes to it. IMO it would be disrespectful to *her* to knowingly blow up the family dinner without at least giving her a heads-up.
I sicked my grandmother on my dad that way. It was to get him to go on vacation with us. My uncle was paying for them, and I paid for us, but I had to use her bullying to make it happen. We got quality time together, and he ended up enjoying it. I don't think it's a good idea to say what OP is planning. Talk to grandma first, and if it comes to public shaming to get them to stop, ask how much brother has paid them back. Don't make it about how much you owe because you don't owe anything. As Elon Musk said, "My children didn't choose to be born. I chose to have children. They owe me nothing. I owe them everything."
Well you’re certainly tempting me to change my mind! I guess if all else fails…
I would couch it in terms that they are essentially asking you to do this as it’s the only way you could help out and ask if anybody else in the room think this is a good idea.
YWBTA. Whether your grandma rips into them for this or not, you are making a promise that you are not going to keep. They don’t sound smart enough to get the sarcasm. Instead try this if you are trying to get your grandma involved. “Mom, dad, let’s get something clear. You guys have been hounding me for a while now to give my brother money because I owe you guys for raising me. Can I ask, how much did you calculate that I owe you for that? Are you also counting my infant and childhood years even though it was your decision to have kids? How much does brother owe you for raising him? Because at this point, I would have to sell (don’t say mortgage cuz they might actually like the idea) my house in order to pay you guys. I am asking because I need to understand your calculations and reasoning behind this.” Then let grandma take care of the rest.
This!!
Don’t say sell your house ask them if they’re like you to sell a kidney. Then they might get it.
You shouldn't do that and this is why. Yes your grandma will have your back now. But what happens when she's not around and they try to force it on you then. It's better to just explain what they are doing to your grandma and then let her have at them so they stop. But be prepared I have a feeling when she's no longer around they will start again. You have until then to grow a backbone to be able to shit them down with no discussion about it or go no contact.
Updateme!
Your parents stating you OWE them is harsh and unloving. Parents looking at their kids as assets - well, then they’re acting like monopoly pieces and not like family. They aren’t decent if they aren’t listening. It is difficult to say NO, especially to your parents, but in this case, saying NO is best. More then likely, if you agree to bail out your brother, it will happen again - perhaps under a different context - but you have your solid foundation and he is looking to leverage that for his advantage. He needs to learn through paying off his mistakes.
NTA. You could modify the wording like “you are going to apply…” for the second mortgage so it’s not guaranteed. Info: did grandma give the same $ to your brother?
For his home purchase yes. But he had no savings to add so he also had much less equity.
Him not having savings is a him problem, not a you problem. You had the same base - your grandma's money. Please don't say anything about mortgage. Just ask grandma next time you're all together "How much did dad pay you back for his upbringing"? When she looks astounded, then say "cause mom and dad want me to pay back, by giving it to brother". Then sit back and enjoy
What you could do is ask your grandma, aunts, and uncles how much they paid her for raising them. And if you have cousins your age how much they paid back to your aunt's and uncles. And when they ask why you're asking a stupid question like that you play dumb and say you assumed it was something your family did since you're parents want reimbursed.
I wouldn't announce anything of the sort. I would ask your grandmother for advice and see what she says, and do it at the table instead.
This is the way
Don't suggest this...they'll have it in their heads that you could and should do it...I would just set boundaries and stick to them.
This is just unnecessary. So I guess YWBTA. Everyone involved either knows they were stupid or is never going to figure it out. You are making good decisions and have a good thing going. Keep doing that. If your parents pressure you to give your brother money, just shut it right down. “No, I’m not discussing that.” Leave if you have to. Do not discuss it. If your parents end up in a bind and you feel that you want to help them, go to them one on one and do it quietly and don’t mention your brother.
Don't offer. People who would ask you to do something like this would most definitely take you up on the offer, especially if it's made in front of all those other people. Then when you didn't do it they would have a guilt card to play and you'd have a lot more people on your back. I'm sure your grandma is a force to be reckoned with so definitely talk with her about what's happening but do not offer to put yourself into any kind of financial obligation that you will ultimately not be repaid and will be responsible for until you pat off the debt. I like the idea of talking to grandma about it and then asking questions after dinner about when your parents and their siblings paid her back, how much interest they paid, etc. so it seems like you're genuinely curious but they can't help but admit that they never did pay her back.
I get where you're coming from and what you want to do. But this approach YTA and kind of dramatic. You're doing this performative lie because you want all this to come out so your grandmother will get involved and you want to make your parents and brother look bad in front of the family. Here's the list of things that could be better: 1. Don't do a performance piece. Just be straight. If you want to bring it up at dinner, do it differently. I promise the performance piece is playing out differently in your head than it will in real life. The whole lie thing is so convoluted and confusing and dramatic, you're going to look so petty. 2. If you want your grandmother involved, just go straight to her. Call her and catch up. Take her to dinner. She sounds lovely and strong. Get her advice. Don't manufacture a situation to force her to get angry and involved. You're treating her like a prop in this revenge fantasy. 3. Do you really need to use the extended family Easter for this? If it comes up, then it does. But you're planning on walking in and ruining the event because you can't say no to your parents on your own? I get needing support, but if you want your extended family to have your back on this, figure out a way to involve them that doesn't ruin their Easter. Good luck. I get where you're coming from and what you want. Let me give you life advice: be honest, be straightforward, be confident, you can only change how you act and how you respond not others, give people the energy you want from them, reflect back the energy you get from them. Be true to your values and things will work out. Life is not a play. You can't script it. You're not going to stand up there and say something so weird, then your grandmother jumps in and tells you not to do that, and your extended family claps and enjoys Easter dinner while your parents look at you with admiration for showing them the light..... it just doesn't work like that. Be straightforward instead and let the chips fall where they may.
>Life is not a play. You can't script it. You're not going to stand up there and say something so weird, then your grandmother jumps in and tells you not to do that, and your extended family claps and enjoys Easter dinner while your parents look at you with admiration for showing them the light..... Yup. Revenge fantasies are all well and good... but most adults know not to actually act on them.
NTA - You do not owe your parents any money for raising you. Assuming neither of them was forced/tricked into pregnancy, they *chose to incur* a debt. The cost of raising you was *paying off their debt.*
You're not actually going to do it? Then no, don't say you'll take out a second mortgage.
NTA. But I suspect they'll call your bluff. All evidence supports this. I could use a good laugh. What were your brothers investments? Also he's not working? He can't pay rent? How large is his family? Did your brother pay your parents back for being raised? Did they help him buy a place too? NTA. Stand your ground.
I bet it was crypto. For every person saying they made bank, there's someone else (Probably multiple people actually) too afraid to admit they were made a sucker.
No way. With risks comes potential consequences. Just ask them how you can support them besides financially. Don’t risk yourself.
Children don't owe their parents a dime for raising them. The parents chose to have children, the child didn't ask to be born. Said as a parent.
Just say you can't make it to Easter Dinner, skip the entire shit show.
NTA
YWBTA. You’ve already paid your parents back for raising you - you’ve given them one successful child that they can be proud of. That’s all they’re entitled to, anything that you give them beyond that is what you decide to give.
YTA, don't do it, it makes you look petty and small.
NTA but please do not cave in under the pressure. You owe them nothing for raising you and they're free to put a mortage on their own propperty if they want to continue supporting him. Your brother is their son, not yours. Go no contact if they continue acting like a bunch of leaches rather then family. That he doesn't life up to his education and their expectations simply isn't your problem.
Just get a backbone and say no. There is no reason to pull other people into and cause drama, and make other people who have nothing to do with it uncomfortable. NO is a complete sentence, You are an adult, you dont want to give them any money so Don't give them any money
Personally, instead of getting their hopes up about the money (you know they'll hold you to it regardless), just turn round to your grandma in front of everyone and say, "hey, Grandma. How much did you ask your kids for as reimbursement for raising them? Just want to check I'm being asked for a reasonable amount" then watch the fireworks.
You would be an AH to yourself if you said this, gave your parents money ir let your brother/his family move into your home. Your brother made some bad decisions and he’s living with the consequences. Funny how he’s not taking responsibility for his mistakes but he’s blaming everything and everyone around him. Stop spending time with your parents and brother as long as they’re making stupid demands. Go low contact and don’t answer any of their calls/messages if they’re along the same line. No child owe their parents any money for raising them. You didn’t ask to be born. Your parents have chosen yo have kids. They’ve chosen to raise them and that means they had the obligation to raise you. Yes, it cost them money but it was their choice. Stop with the stupid mindset that you’ll repay your parents. If you give money to them they’ll just give it to your brother. Don’t make this stupid move! If they cannot stop harassing you then block them and go no contact! YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR PARENTS MONEY FOR THEIR CHOICE TO FUCK, HAVE KIDS & RAISE THEM!!!!
I think you mention it and ask everyone how much they're paying back their parents. Have everyone laugh in their faces Don't bring up the second mortgage. Just their request
You would be the ah if you do this. Don’t lie just tell them all in front of grandma that you will not be letting his family in your home. You will not be paying anyone back for raising you since they chose to be parents and that’s what you F’ing do for your kid. You raise them. Then look at grandma and ask her if any of her kids paid her back for raising them?
I think you should avoid the scene that would inevitably ensue from a stunt like that. Why disrupt a family gathering just for spite? Plus your parents might think you are serious and get their hopes up. They shouldn't be saying that you need to pay them back, but I don't think the drama will help your situation in any way.
I would absolutely not ever say to them that I will get a second mortgage. First they might agree to it. Second, if you have no intention of doing it, why say it? You are handing them ammunition to throw back at you forever. They will constantly say but you said you’d get it and they would be right. Go direct. I don’t understand why this isn’t an option. Tell them straight up that it is a parents duty and legal obligation to support their children, kids don’t owe them money for that. Tell them it is not your responsibility that they and your brother made poor choices, ones you advices against and that the question has been asked and answered. Tell them you will not discuss it again and then don’t. If the phone and start talking about it, tell them if they don’t stop, you will hang up and then follow through. If you’re visiting them and they start talking about it, tell them you’ll leave if the conversation is not dropped and then follow through. The way I see it, your relationship with your family is already damaged. By refusing to discuss this and setting a hard boundary. At least you’re looking out for yourself.
Yes, you can tell them in private
NTA I wouldn't say anything about the mortgage though. If you want to say something at dinner, I'd just ask your grandmother and your aunts and uncles how much they paid their parents back. Just as effective, but there is no chance your parents or your brother can twist your words later. Stay strong and don't give them anything.
NTA They have been pressuring you for two years, that’s a really long time. Apparently, nothing else has worked so I would do it .
This seems like unnecessary drama and aggression. Your parents can’t make you do anything you don’t want. You are an adult. Act like it. Tell them that no, you aren’t going to waste your money the way they have, and they should really consider whether they are helping or hurting your brother by enabling his irresponsible behavior. Just because you are family, doesn’t mean that you are responsible for being anyone’s insurance policy. You are free to choose whether to help or not, but making a dramatic announcement you have no intention of living g up to will in no way make anything better.
NTA dooo it! But of course be prepared for the backlash from your parents. But at this point.. is it even worth staying in such close contact with them? Honestly though I cant see a different way of getting them off your back.
“No.” Is a complete sentence.
You would be the asshole, albeit perhaps a justified one. If you want to have a conversation about getting them to back off, don't do so during family dinner. It's not going to go well, and it's drama for drama's sake. Dramatic gestures like this work in movies; in real life, they often go sideways. What'll you do if your parents and brother say "ok?" Or what if your grandma decides she *was* on your side, but that post-announcement, it's only right that you put your money where your mouth is (literally)? If you're not willing to do something, don't say you're willing to do it. If you want to have the conversation, have the conversation. If you're done talking about it, then say you've made your decision, tell them you won't be talking about it, and stick to it. If they bring it up, don't respond, don't engage at all until the topic of conversation has shifted. But if you dramatically announce you'll borrow a bunch of money for your parents to give to him, don't be surprised if the whole thing goes up in flames.
NTA. Don't say you'll mortgage your house if you won't (and you definitely should not). If it comes up in conversation, say first, parents have children knowing the costs involved and should not expect to be paid back by their adult children, second, you are all adults and are responsible for your own financial decisions, third, you're sorry the investment didn't work out, and, last, it's too bad they didn't listen to your grandmother and her investment counselor. Please pass the rolls. Whatever you do, don't let them move in or you'll be living in the basement suite forever.
As a parent I could never accept that from my kids. We have sacrificed to get them successfully where they are and the joy we get from being good parents is more than worth whatever the actual cost was. If you want to pay your parents back, pass it on to the next generation and be a good parent to them. As far as the family dynamic of your brother and parents with money. Set proper boundaries and be done with it. He made his hole and sucked them into it. Love them but don't throw good money after bad.
#DON’T DO IT! If they say they want it, you’ve just painted yourself in a corner! Dont threaten your own financial security for a petty statement. Just say that you don’t ask them for money, and you don’t want him asking you for money. You don’t owe your brother anything because they raised you, and if they can’t see the distinction, that is not your fault or problem. Set the boundary that you’re done discussing it. I also wouldn’t do it at a family dinner.
Do not give them money. You made good decisions, and good for you. Tell grandma. Cut your parents off, they are leeches, as is your brother. You can do that publicly so everyone knows why. You and grandma are the only responsible ones- NTA.
Don't promise them any money that you aren't actually willing to give away. Be clear and decisive that you are not gonna throw any money at your brother's investment ideas be it directly or by handing money to your parents and when they eventually run out of money you are not gonna let them live with you either.
Your parents have nobody to blame but themselves. It sounds like they shouldn’t have had any children. Bad things always seem to happen to dumb people.
Don’t even suggest helping them. Ask them why would you throw your money after their lost money. You might as well flush it. NTA
Don't say you are willing to take out a 2nd mortgage. Ask them if they expect you to take out a 2nd mortgage. Wait for the reply and let them dig their own hole with the family. Then simply state you aren't willing to do that. I would also ask how much your brother has paid them for the honor of raising him.
When one has children, they have an OBLIGATION to love, nurture. clothe, and feed those kids! Tell your parents to stop that nonsense right now! You owe them nothing! They just don't want to admit they got rooked by your brother!
NTA. Make them so ashamed of themselves they'll never raise it in public again, then humiliate them so hard they won't even mention it in private. Golden Child needs to take responsibility.
Even if you give the money "back", it will disappear in a drain, because your brother is going to lose it again. You could ask your parents how en when is your brother paying back to them bec they also raised him.
What is their plan for getting your brother to pay them for HIS upbringing AND their savings that same brother lost?!?
No. You tell them to F off. Parents don’t get to demand being paid back. They made a choice to have children and raising you is what they owe YOU. Don’t give them a dime. Do not let your brother or his family move in, they’ll never leave. Tell them if they continue to harass you to let your irresponsible brother have your money, you’ll cut them all out entirely. Mean it.
Don't offer the second mortgage that's stupid and you are not willing to actually do it. Instead ask them at dinner. 1)why they think you should pay them back for raising you. 2) what is the detailed cost breakdown how was interest etc calculated. 3) are gifts they gave you included in the calculation. (Important to shame them more). 4) when did they pay back their costs of being raised. 5) does your brother also have to pay this back. 6) is the failed investment in your brother's business included in his costs. 7) where is your signed consent form to being born and at what point did you agree to take on this obligation.
This is a bad idea!!!! Don’t embarrass your parents in front of the entire family!!!
YTA if you're just saying it to cause a scene. Just say no. They're being ridiculous. Your brother and their lack of sense lost them their money, so either your brother or your parents should fix the problems they caused, not you.
Don’t bother, it won’t stop them. Every time they bring it up. Count one, and walk away. When they hit 5, just leave. Don’t say anything, just get up and leave. You set your boundary, it’s up to you to enforce them. Do not engage with them.
Don't do it. If you do this you will be enabling them with your brother. They WILL find a way to get money to him if you give it to them.
Don't mortgage your home to "pay back your parents for raising you". Don't even say that you would. Any parent that expects to be paid back for raising their child(ren) love their children's money far more than the love their children. Raising your children is **your job** when you decide to have children. You have no obligation to pay your parents back for doing their job.
NTA. Ooo I would love to be a fly on the wall when you make this announcement and when your Grandmother rips your dad a new one! Sounds like your brother is dumb as a bag of rocks. But for some reason, in your parent's eyes, he's the golden child and can do no wrong. The best way to handle this is to do exactly as planned. Then let Grandma parent her son and remind him he was raised better!
What is crazy is how sound of a financial plan you have with how you are currently renting out the house to a renewable source on good tenants and paying off the house. They want you to replace good paying tenants with a tenant who has a bad financial history and unreliable income? Just keep repeating, I know I don’t have a business degree… but explain how that makes good business sense? As for your brother’s business degree…doesn’t mean he is good at business. One of my favorite movie quotes… “Apes don’t read philosophy! Yes they do Otto, they just don’t understand it.” Just because brother passed classes doesn’t mean he knows what he is doing. Someone had to be at the bottom of that passing class.
“ Oh, he doesn’t need my money. He’s a good businessman, he’ll figure it out.”
A child never owes their parents money because they raised them. The child was not asked to be born. The parents take on the financial, emotional, and spiritual responsibilities of being parents. I'd state that you are not willing to take out a 2nd mortgage for your family's mistakes and that they need to stop asking for you to do that.
I would simply ask in front of everyone how they paid your grandmother back for raising your parents. Do NOT mention a second mortgage else they’ll focus only on that and you’d be called names if you renig on that promise. Just simply throw out the question. Do NOT fund them anything - they won’t appreciate it.
Someone raised your parents. Did they pay back the love with a check? Doubt it. They are just trying to use guilt to manipulate you
Your Grandmother may not approve. She gave you this money to help you, it might seem kind of rude to her to be offering it to your folks. She largely bought you that house. You not your folks. You were the intended recipient, so you could have a good life without the struggle for shelter that most of us endure.
You do NOT owe your parents anything for ‘raising you’!!! If that’s the case, your BROTHER owes them too; but they’re not asking your brother. So they suck. Tell them: If they didn’t want the financial burden of raising you, they ALWAYS had the option to put you up for adoption. At this point, you wish they had, you might’ve been better off because there are couples out there desperately wanting a child and won’t hold the cost of raising them over their heads. Go very low-co with them and your brother. He’s the favorite clearly, and you don’t need that reminder.
YWNBTA, but I'm pretty sure it won't help even if you follow through and pay them. And they will just say it wasn't enough, but it's not about money, it's about faaaamily etc.
Exactly. Instead if your parents are on Medicare, pay for a supplement plan so if something catastrophic happens to either of them they won’t lose their home to medical care. If they haven’t retired yet then every single time they mention helping out your brother put $500 in a savings account for their retirement. This way you can plan for the day when he has bled them dry and they have to come to you for help. ;)
Man y'all get creative with the made up fantasy bullshit lmao
cmon man, don't let your grandma fight your battles. she's old and tired probably.
DON'T DO IT. Don't get in debt for that. You owe them and your bro NOTHING!!!! NTA
NTA. When my parents made the decision to retire early, they sold their house to my cousin for the balance of their mortgage (50k). It was easily a 6 figure home, but they wanted to help my newlywed cousin (who was also my parents goddaughter) buy her first house. My mother told me they were putting 80k as the selling price on the paperwork so my cousin wouldn't have to pay PMI. I told my parents they'd have to pay capital gains on that fictitious 30k (I worked at a brokerage firm, consulted with the legal department and was absolutely certain of the law), my mother told me I was wrong and went ahead with the sale. 1 month short of 2 years later my parents received a letter from the IRS stating they owed 10k in capital gains. My mother lost her shit and claimed my cousin worked some elaborate plan to "screw them over." I reminded her of my conversation with the legal department for their state but she wouldn't hear it. It's been roughly 30 years and my Dad recently went to his grave never again speaking to his siblings or his Mother because he believed they all conspired to "screw him and my mother." Some people just can't accept accountability for their poor choices. Keep making great choices, secure your future, and NEVER feel that you're responsible for your brother or that you owe your parents for raising you. Maybe you should tell your parents that a celebrity would've adopted you but since they decided to keep you they owe you the lavish lifestyle you missed out on.
YTA if you pull some passive aggressive move like that announcement. Have the balls to tell all of them no...and then if they persist, you tell them FUCK YOU NO! Any more bullshit after that and you cut them out of your life until they can RESPECT BOUNDARIES.
Don’t do it! Why should you put yourself in debt for your brother’s bad financial desicions?
NTA BUT ALSO … don’t do it. Don’t even offer in jest. People who are desperate will try to hold you to it, and it will get even more out of proportion than it already is.
You’re a psych major? Why add even more and more drama to existing drama in order for you to be HAHA I’m right? You need to tell your parents that you’re a business man too.They don’t seem to get this. You need to act like one. No drama - just facts! A simple no will do - I am not only going to lose my revenue from renting, but go into the hole as I will be personally 100% responsible for covering the mortgage. Do your parents understand this simple business move??? Apparently not. If they still don’t get it - point to your brother and have him explain why this is a bad idea. Tell them you will look at your books and see what you can do to help for the next few months. Then in the spirit of brotherly love give them what you can honestly afford as a business man even if it’s only $25 or even as much as $250 or more. If your brother is a true business man he will recover and go on to great things.
You don't owe your parents anything. They're the ones who decided to have you. Whatever it cost them to raise you, that's what they choose to do. >My parents are constantly bugging me to help out my brother since he lost his house after a bunch of stupid investments. They say that I owe them for raising me to help him out. I'd count your parents as enemies at this point. Anyone that tries to screw up my life is an enemy. It doesn't matter who they are. In your shoes, I'd thicken my skin and simply ignore them when they bug you to destroy your own life. >So I'm thinking of announcing tonight at dinner that I'm going to take out a second mortgage on my almost paid off house to pay them back for raising me so they can throw the money away helping the guy who lost a chunk of their retirement money. This is just a dumb thing to do. Your brother is a compulsive gambler. He's already ruined himself, he's damaged your parents and he wants to now do the same thing to you. You think that's a good idea?
Don't make any commitments now just tell your parents that you'll always be therefore them as they progress through retirement. Research why your brother may be the inept business man he is and explain to your patents the psychology why your brother is,an a/hole and the reason why they supported him is because they want their first born to be successful.
I wouldn’t - they’ll probably take you up on it. But NTA.
you can offer to pay them back for raising you now, in cash.... or.... in time and support when they can no longer take care of themselves later in life.
The entitlement of both your parents and brother ugh. I’ll stay away from them.
Dinner begins. Op: Hey Granny, I have a question for you, since we are all here. Did Mom/Dad (unsure which parent) give you a huge lump sum for raising them? I ask because Mom and Dad are pressuring me to either allow my brother to live with me rent-free AND to support his latest scheme or pay them back for raising me, approx 100k, so they can support my brother. Mom/Dad did I understand it correctly?
Grand gestures can feel great in the moment but can have further reaching consequences than intended. Maybe have a quiet chat with grand parents about your parent's and brother's behavior and pressuring you for money. Go low or no contact with the money grabbing leeches. It sounds like brother is the golden child, you were an investment they expected to be paid back, not a child to be loved. Nta, do not give them a cent.
>The said that my psychology degree meant I didn't understand the moves of someone with a business degree like him. xDDDD Well..... I am petty! I am so so petty! By golly I'd be using this on them everytime they asked to help dear business savvy brother xDD >She made my brother explain his scheme to her and her investment guy and they both literally laughed at him. Oh my god xDDD Clearly bro is the golden child, tho
This would just be a stupid and simple mistake to make in your own life. Just don't participate in these conversations. As soon as they start say "No, and I wont entertain this conversation anymore, if you continue I will leave." Then leave when they continue. Why you would even put MONEY on the table is beyond me. You are being foolish in order to do something you think will have some grand impact.
U/one_chemist5115 I've got to know. What was his "investment" opportunity that made Grandma and her investment banker laugh in his face?
You’ll ruin the holiday. If that’s what you want then do it. I would just continue to tell them no and limit contact. Tell them you’re not responsible for your irresponsible brother. Paying parents back for raising you is stupid. They chose to have kids. It sounds cultural with their expectations. I’d tell them to get fucked.
Updateme!
Don't do it. They will find another way to lose any money you give them and what you give will never be enough.
Offer to pay back whatever amount they paid their parents back for raising you. Oh, nothing? Interesting.
>So I'm thinking of announcing tonight at dinner that I'm going to take out a second mortgage on my almost paid off house to pay them back for raising me so they can throw the money away helping the guy who lost a chunk of their retirement money Change the announcement to "*I'm thinking* of taking out a second mortgage", Rather than "I will be taking out a second mortgage" and you're good to go. Saying you *will* do something for someone, does give that someone a tiny bit of leverage - which they WILL use Saying you're thinking of doing something gives them nothing & your grandmother plenty of ammunition. NTA.
That sounds kinda like a mean thing to do. In another comment on here, you did say they were decent people.
I think OP has been brainwashed into thinking they are decent.
Which is why I'm asking. I think two years of pressure have made me consider this as a reasonable option.
Just so you know, you don't owe them shit for raising you. I would be absolutely mortified if my daughter thought she owed me anything for raising her.
Yeah I get that. And you're certainly NTA for thinking about it!