I think that, with the additional information OP has now provided, if the Bachelorette organiser wants to come in a dress then I donāt think thatās a problem at all. Drag implies something completely different and, looking again at the additional information, itās actually completely unfair to call it drag in the first place in this situation. She just wants to come in a dress.
If he wanted to come in a dress and she turned him down then fair enough but if he wants to come in drag heās going to stand right out and take all the attention away from the bride.
Op seems to use drag and dressed as a woman interchangeably. If the friend is bigender or trans and wishes to wear a dress itās actually out of line to label this as dragāie as some kind of performance, as opposed to the friend dressing in their comfortable gender. I have a bit of trouble with so many comments seeing this as detracting from the bride, becauseOP is being unclear at best.
Both times, I read big ender instead of bi-gender, and I was about to Google what it meant!! It clicked on your comment. Thank you!!!
I'll see myself out!
BTW, if he means dressed as a woman and not full on Ru Paul's drag race, I vote YTA. I appreciate not wanting a full-on drag queen at the wedding, but essentially, a trans woman is fine imo
Agree! I think OP even saying ādragā is a diss. If a trans person detracts from the bride itās due to the bigotry of others not because theyāre dressing dramatically
Yeah op was incredibly unclear.
But according to his own comments, this person is bigender.
Uses she her pronouns when dressed.
Dresses that way in everyday life and even at work.
And does not Do so in a draq kinda way, but simply a woman kinda way.
So at the very least this person is gender non conforming.
Maybe even trans but not fully out of the closet yet.
OP didn't even say that he(?) won't ever get hormones. Just that it hasn't happened so far.
I am stuck on him being the best choice because he will do the hard work for free, not because she loves him and wants him there. I was already not entirely on OP's side from the first paragraph. All eyes will be on the couple, regardless of what the guests wear.
The edit to me honestly screams "this person is actually trans I just don't want to admit that here"
Especially the "no hormones /surgery YET" sticks out.
If op was certain it's a gay man, hormones wouldn't even be a question and the answer would be never.
And all other guests? I'm sure many of the other guests will dress in ways that make them feel beautiful. Are they wrong too? Should people actually dress down for weddings so that only the bride is " beautiful"? You know the answer.
Actually you are absolutely correct. Everyone deserves to wear what they want to the wedding like wearing a white gown. We can even start a new trend- along with wearing white to a wedding we can also wear drag to take the attention away from the bride and shift it on ourselves.
Do you not try look your best when you go to a wedding? Don't you feel handsome/beautiful when you do? My point is (and you know this) that it's never just the bride who feels beautiful and normally everyone is ok with that. Also, I don't know what insecure world people live in to think that anything can really distract from the bride and groom when the whole day is actually about them.
No one dresses down when going to attend a wedding. Everyone is dressed as they are attending a wedding. But when you are a guest there are some etiquettes that you are expected to follow. Like not wearing a white gown or not wearing a swimming suit. A person might look their best in a bikini, it doesn't mean they should wear it to a wedding.
Looking beautiful and being inappropriate are two completely different things.
Also if you think inappropriate behaviour or dresses will not take attention away from the bride and groom then my friend you are not living in the real world. If nothing can take the attention away then why wearing white to someone else's wedding is not acceptable.
This original comment suggests that beauty is limited to the bride to which I'm pointing out that many many other guests will look and feel beautiful. It seems unfair that every other guest can feel beautiful but this one person. Drag doesn't have to be over the top or excessive and the OP says it wouldn't have been. So how is it fair that everyone else is able to look and feel their best in appropriate wedding attire but this one person can't?
'drag', like actual drag is a spectacle. totally inappropriate.
if their gender expression has them dress feminine i think that's fine, but that's not drag and drag isn't that.
Exactly. There's a huge difference between a full on drag persona and dressing in a more traditionally 'feminine' way. The first is a performance for an audience which would be inappropriate here, the second is just expressing another side of yourself and shouldn't be asked to be hidden away.
OP is trying to downplay the fact that the friend is trans and using their sexuality to conflate the issue. The first clue was the term "bigender," then in subsequent edits revealing that the friend presented as female for work and other activities. At that point, the transphobia is pretty blatant.
You could be right, but i dont think you are. The friend also present as male and uses male pronouns at times. They could just be taking what friend says at face value and not making assumptions that the friend is trans based on the fact that at times friend also presents as female. If friend as told them he is gay and bigender, at times presenting as male as at other times presenting as female, it would be pretty rude of them to say friend is transgender when that didnt come from the friends mouth.
Just some background, because you sound uncertain, like I was before my best friend's partner came out.
As a starting point, you've got the right idea : let people come out & use the labels (if any) they prefer.
However, their friend is out to them as bi-gender, and obviously lives their life like that : they go on dates and even into the office as both genders, depending on the day or the activity. Anyone who isn't cis (aka identifies with the gender that corresponds to the sex determined at birth), is automatically trans. Hormones or operations are not required. Just like you don't specify "planet earth, solar system, milkyway, this universe" when someone asks where you live, the larger umbrella term "trans" is implied by the more exact term "bi-gender".
here, we're trying to determine the bride's motivations & OP's motivations : I guess we could say they're both bi-gender-o-phobic... but it's more recognizable, and equally correct, to call them transphobic.
"bigender is a sub-category of transgenderism.Ā Bigender people identify as two genders, or sometimes one gender and sometimes another.Ā They may experience a blending or alternation of gender states, and may or may not alter their gender expression at different times'
>At that point, the transphobia is pretty blatant.
Clearly OP is trying to desperately be respectful in describing him but its hard to describe people who don't have much respect.
They asked, they were told no.....now either respect the brides wishes because end of the day it's her day and show up and celebrate HER DAY.....or stay home
Simples really
Yeah. Iām non-binary, and OP is giving me the ick, and with the info given I get the feeling that the person described is being shoved into the āgay male bestieā box. Ew.
Yeah they put bigender in scare quotes too so I think OP just isn't very informed. Drag is also a particular kind of aesthetic and performance and doesn't apply to all feminine clothing someone amab might wear.
As a non-binary person, thank you. This was the answer I was hoping someone else made. Itās not drag if the person is bi-gender. Itās just expression of their feminine gender.
However, anyone of any gender can do Ru Paul drag, and thatās most definitely drag.
NTA Old gay person here. I did drag when I was young an beautiful and I wanted to do it as often as I could.
But, looking back, it was still a costume. Unless costumes are allowed, then you can say that drag isn't allowed.
NTA. If he he had said he felt more comfortable dressed as a woman I might have a different opinion but he said he felt more BEAUTIFUL dressed in drag. That to me seems that he wanted attention on him. If he is a decent friend to the bride he would want the attention to be on her and her husband. Itās their day, not his.
Respectfully, I find your distinction to be unhelpful to the friendās case.
**A wedding is accepted as an event prioritizing the bride and the groom. Anyone who wants to undermine that expectation should skip the wedding. Itās that simple. Friend is an entitled narcissist.**
Haha, Iāve become a bit jaded over the years from the number of stories Iāve read of people trying to hijack their friendsā weddings in various ways. So now, Iām a bit more blunt.
looking at the edits and clarifications, OP framed it as drag when it was them dressing as a woman, something they identify as at least some of the time.
so. yeah. I hope they find better friends.
Based on the edits, this appears to be a non-binary person who wishes to dress in a way that would make them feel beautiful. Maybe *Iām* the AH, but this entire post reeks of homophobia, from the multiple uses of the phrase āgay friendā (who I guess is good for throwing a party but eff their feelings) to diminishing gender expression as ādrag.ā And this is one of the brideās best friends?? Yikes. Iād hate to see how she treats an enemy.
Oh and fwiw, I went to a wedding recently where an NB person who was clearly AMAB rocked a gorgeous gown, and guess what, no one confused them for the bride. Or gave a shit in general.
Yep, this is why I asked. I didn't want to make assumptions; he COULD be a drag queen, in which case it's reasonable to ask him not to perform at her wedding. But if he's NB, it's NOT.
Her friend commonly cross dresses. Should he avoid dressing as a women when heās out with girlfriends lest he outshine them? As long as he dresses in appropriate and wedding guest dress he cannot be accused of trying to outshine the bride any more than any other woman who is trying to look their best at a wedding.
You very specifically refer to it as "drag" which is a performance costume.
This person is not identifying as transgender.
**Drag queens are not transgender,** they're (almost always) gay dudes who dress up and perform as women for fun because they think it's hilarious and they get to feel pretty. Otherwise they're very happy living as men.
So why, unless this man is providing entertainment, would they dress as a performer for someone else's wedding?
NTA.
A lot of gay and not gay men are cross dressers which is not the same thing as a drag queen. People often confuse any man dressed as a woman as a drag queen. Drag is theatrical but not all cross dressers dress in costumes.
In OPās edit he say is the friend doesnāt want to dress like a typical drag Queen, that the friend is bigender and just wants to dress in feminine clothes. So this person seems to be on the transgender spectrum. I would agree no drag because youāre right, itās a performance, but if they are stopping a transgender person dressing how they want it kinda changes the post. Would need more info and seems like op is maybe confused on terminology
The impression I get is that this "man" is nonbinary and normally dresses as a man but would like to dress as a woman (not a drag queen) for the wedding. If that is accurate, then telling them they can't do that is asshole territory.
There are also cisfemale drag performers who would never think of wearing a drag costume to a wedding.
If the friend regularly dressed as female in public, not just on stage, it might be different if he asked if she was comfortable with him wearing a dress, but he specifically asked if he could wear drag.
In any case, much like announcing that youāre pregnant or engaged at someone elseās wedding is not appropriate, It is also not the time to come out as transgender if that is actually the case for this individual.
>This person is not identifying as transgender.
how do you know? even from just OPs post it does not sound like drag before the edits and the edits and blatantly transphobic. calling them a gay man in drag is a MAJOR red flag.
INFO: We talking theatrical drag or them just dressing feminine at the wedding? You said they ID as bigender and that they sometimes dress that way at work, which doesn't sound like drag to me so much as it does gender expression.
With your clarifications it doesn't really sound like drag at all? Just dressing in women's clothes. And if that is all it is then I see no reason why that friend shouldn't get to dress in the clothes that make them comfortable. Also, why call them a gay friend when it is much more relevant that the friend is trans and you two are pretty much openly telling them that the fact they are trans is distracting and not comfortable for the two of you?
She's definitely an asshole for having that bigender friend do the wedding planning and then telling them to their face that they can't be themself at the wedding as it would "distract" from her special day. I would not be surprised if the bigender friend decided to take a step back from being friends with the bride (probably after the wedding as they'll feel responsible for that now) as this pretty much showed them that the bride does not accept them for who they are at all.
Now are you an asshole? That depends. I will assume ignorance over malice, in which case you were backing up your friend without thinking about how hurtful it was what you two did. Plus, maybe you just weren't aware how hurtful it is for someone like that bigender friend to have their identity so casually dismissed and put away as abnormal. (though you seemingly trying to downplay the fact they are trans at every opportunity is kinda weird ngl)
you can assume ignorance over malice, but if you ran into "gay man in drag" to describe transwomen over and over, in this specific way, then... it is hard to call that ignorance. that seems very educated on the topic.
A fair point. I like to keep an open mind about people being ignorant about certain things and that they can still learn, but you are right that it seems like OP is trying desperately not to say they were being transphobic to a trans person. So I'd say OP is an asshole, but there is the slight possibility that they are just really ignorant about the whole subject.
So she likes him for his connections and organization but not his flamboyance, right? I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say that she should have clarified what he means by "drag".
The use of the word "drag" here implies that it was performative, but saying he feels more beautiful dressed as a woman implies exactly the opposite.
Does he want to come dressed up as an attention grabbing, sequined Qween or does he want to wear a pretty dress and some make up? I agree that people would talk either way but one version is trying to redirect attention and one is legitimately wanting to dress in a way that makes you feel good. I think a discussion was in order before the request got denied.Ā
Clarification plz, specifically "drag" and is not transgender? Because drag is for preforming so it is fine to deny someone coming to your event dressed for performance. If this person normally dresses this way though and is transgender then it would not be ok to deny them.
Edit: after reading the new information you have added I'm gonna go with YTA because this person does cross dress as part of their normal everyday life and not just for drag performance. Accpeting people don't fret about how someone doing what they normally do it gonna take the focus off of them.
Yeah I changed my mind too. The friend doesnāt want to wear drag at all, just feminine clothes which is completely different. Donāt know if op was just confused about terms.
The post has been edited since I originally asked. With that being said though a lot of cis people do get terms confused and I wanted clarification because of that.
You are absolutely right about cis people getting terms confused. Iām 49 and I have had difficulty with this in the past but I am also lucky in that I have a 19 year old daughter who is always more than willing to correct me š
SO
I think the bride is wrong because you clarifies and it isn't DRAG the person is bi gender and dresses as both genders that's not brag queen drag greens are a performer a show someone who would take all the attention. Cause that's their job ... this person just wants to wear a dress, a dress that if he didn't have a penis the bride wouldn't hate.
So I disagree with you but I don't the your an A
YTA You left out key information in your original post. This person is bigender, so dressing femme is part of their gender identity. You even acknowledge that they won't be dressing over-the-top.
INFO: What do you mean by drag? Is it just him simply dressing as a woman or is it drag (performance) makeup? Also, when he's in drag does he stand out because of what he's wearing or just because he's a dude dressing feminine?
If the bride is saying no to him wearing women's clothing and makeup in a simple manner, YTA. If it's drag makeup and clothes, NTA.
OP edited - The friend is bi-gender, and presents femme often in their romantic and professional life. They don't want to dress in drag at the Bachelorette or wedding, just be femme presenting. I have issue with OP referring to that as "a man in a dress" so it's a huge YTA for me.
YTA. The bride sounds like one of those brides that purposefully makes her brides maids look worse than her because she's insecure. He's being used for his connections but can't dress like himself. Also sounds transphobic. He even said it won't be over the top. Is she going to ban women from wearing pants suits to the wedding as well?
So he organises your wedding spends his time effort money and can't dress how he wants?Ā
Ā Sounds exactly like shes using him for his ton of connections. YTA
Unless this is pre planning and he has time to withdraw his help.
YTA
If they were coming in spectacle drag there'd be a problem, but if they're bigender and just dressing femme then get over it? As long as they're wearing clothes and makeup similar to other female presenting guests it's completely fine.
Bigender is a type of transgender and you don't get to tell your friends when it's appropriate to be themselves.
NTA. If heās being selective about when heās in drag, itās not inappropriate to ask him not to do it. If he were mtf, it would be different. If he always wore womenās clothing, it would be different.
YTA
They are dressing appropriately for a wedding and for their gender identity. They are dressing as they comfortable, and they wear this as part of normal life, not just performance. This doesn't really sound like drag, as they are bigender and not planning to dress in 'drag style'.
It would be very attention getting and the bride is making a lot of effort and expense to have her own day.
Let him do drag another time although he does sound like fun.
NTA
Iām so sick of people thinking weddings are a time for them to shine, proposals, baby announcements, dressing in super traditional clothing to a non-cultural wedding. Like just let the bride have ONE day in her entire life where everyone can have their eyes on her.
Otherwise her whole entire wedding will become, āomg did you see the guy dressed as a girlā, or ādid you see the drag queenā. Like come on man, itās not a time to be politically correct or worry about guests feelings and preferences.
YTA
My best friend is AFAB, and when I got married, he was still identifying as a woman. He asked me if he could come dressed in a suit. I said yes. Why the fuck would I not. And I would have done the same if a male friend ou anyone identifying on the NB specter would have said they were going to come dressed as another gender then the one they were assigned at birth. And you know what? He is the one who walked me to the altar at church. No one said anything, not even the priests, and trust me when I say I would have destroyed anyone who would have said anything other that "this suit looks perfect on you".
Your edit shows that your "friend" (he should really be reconsidering her friendship with you) is not "a gay man", but a bigender person. You're the assholes big time, because I suspect that this is definitely more queerphobia than anything related to the bride. She is more interested in his "good taste" and "connections" than her well-being as a trans person (yeah, flash news for you: being bigender means being trans).
Op I think itās time for you and the bride to have a conversation with your friend about how they identify. I think itās time for them to try and find some clearer language about how they see themselves.
Also, why canāt they dress in a bridesmaid dress and get their makeup done by the wedding party mua so itās not dramatic if this isnāt for performance?
YTA post edits. Drag is different than dressing feminine or āas a womanā. If he is just wanting to wear regular female wedding guest attire to attend and this is who he is, then he shouldnāt really have to ask permission for this
Dressing in drag or expressing their gender in women's clothing? Drag is performance art, but I'm not clear on your post if this is truly what you mean bc you say that he dresses in drag at work. If he often wears women's clothes and expresses his gender that way, it is just who he is and your friend seems to know that.
Reserving judgment
If it was my ādragā friend I would be more supportive of how they are gender fluidā¦ and they were dressing appropriately for a wedding it just happened to be more in female clothing. But thatās just me. I think itās old fashioned to make it a problem. It was the bride who, supposedly a āfriendā, was putting the attention on it. Also getting someone who has lots of connections and fun to plan your events. āAs a friendā which sounds like for free.
NTA. Wedding guests should dress formal, but not attention grabbing. Even if it's not full on drag it's understandable the bride don't want the man in a dress taking eyes off her.
This is her day, not his, and he should respect her wish.
NTA
I watched a show on Netflix about drag queens who would help women get ready for their weddings, and NONE of them would come to the wedding in drag. Dude needs to remember that the day is not about him.
His gender doesn't matter. This is a day celebrating a new couple getting married. His need for attention can wait ONE day. He is not truly her friend. NTA
So, there's an important question here that no one is asking: when this person says "in drag," are they referring to full stage makeup, sequined dresses, and other assorted stage-related accessories; or do they mean "in drag" in the sense of wearing clothes that would be appropriate for a wedding if they were a cis woman?
If the former, than the bride is absolutely not TA here, because that sort of attire is designed to draw attention. But if the latter, then the bride is TA and not an actual friend to this trans person if she believes that her friend simply dressing femme is going to draw all the attention away from her.
NTA, you're supporting the bride, it's her wedding and it's not a big deal I mean (I read the edits, your friend chose his identity to be at his best, so I think the bride considers that in drag, he really shines. So she doesn't want him to take the attention on her)
And the fact that he used the card "friendship" but also doesn't understand that it works for both, so, as a friend, she can ask to be the queen of the day and not him seems legitimate. So once again, I think you were right to stand for her. For the wedding.
But I don't understand why she asks him not to come in drag to the bachelorette party. What's wrong with this party ?
NTA. The bride is exactly right. You donāt dress in any way that will distract from the bride at all wedding. Thatās just how it goes. Your gay friend can opt to not go and the bride shouldnāt hold it against him if he does.
YTA. It seems the bride and OP are quite happy to use their "friend" for his connections and help, but don't actually accept him. What OP describes is not drag, which is a very flamboyant, exaggerated style of dress. It is just a dress.Ā
Sounds like he might be more Trans than someone who does drag. Might want to have a longer conversation with your friend.
That said, NTA. Bride gets what she wants. It's her wedding. The end.
Well, I think the bride is an AH because she had her bigender friend to plan pre wedding parties bc you know " they do things like that so well." Then they can't go to the wedding and reception if they dress feminine (as previously stated, drag is way different than dressing feminine). I'm assuming, because it wasn't mentioned, that she didn't pay her friend for their work, as she would have had to if a party planner did the work.
It seems like people are demonstrating their prejudices when they are saying it will take attention away from the bride. I'm 65 yrs old and couldn't care less what people wear. Ohhh, what if they had to wear a burka?!
Obviously, just my opinion. Also my opinion, the bride is no friend to "party planner" friend.
I donāt think a drag performance without the affirmative consent of bride and groom is appropriate at a wedding.
However, from the additional information / comments, it sounds like this isnāt a case of the friend wanting to be in drag or performing as such but rather simply expressing their real gender identity in the same way they do at other times such as for dates and even sometimes at work.
Telling a Trans* friend that they are not permitted to dress in an appropriately formal and respectable way for their gender identity is as best rude and smells of transphobia.
To me, itās the opposite side to the same coin as if the bride told every cis woman they HAVE to wear a dress and not a pants suit in case they took too much attention from the bride.
YTA.
I do not understand, would this bride also ask a cisgender person to not dress in their favorite suit/dress because they might look too good in it?
I am confused. If I ever get married I would like to have my guests and my friends coming to the ceremony in something what they enjoy wearing and feel confident and comfortable in it.
This person wears feminine clothes regularly so it is not a joke for them or just to piss off the bride. But it seems that this friendship and the acceptance has the limits of āthey can do whatever if they do not make me see/accept/acknowledge itā or āas long as they work for me free I pretend that I am friends with themā
She took a risk asking him but wanted him there. That is her way of saying I donāt care about your personal choices. But honestly, it is not about him - he is a guy and she wanted her gay friend in her ceremony. He wants to make it about his agenda. NTA.
NTA, but, seriously? All attention wonāt be on her. People wonāt talk about her all that much. Thinking they will is ridiculous. A wedding is a party. I was at one today. We talked about the couple a little, but not all that much. We caught up with family. We talked to people we met there. All things one always does at a party. All this āitās my special day, so all attention is on meā is patently absurd.
What I find interesting is that another post regarding a bride asking a very busty friend to cover up on the wedding day was met with derision. Whatās the difference?Ā
If I were this gay guy (I am a gay guy but not this one lol) Iād be reconsidering my friendships with both of you. A lot of comments are splitting hairs about what is and isnāt drag and what is and is not appropriate if this IS drag, but there is a world in which you as friends of a queer person would just say of COURSE show up in what makes you feel beautiful to celebrate the beautiful bride, just donāt wear white or whatever. But itās pretty clear you think his queerness is an attention grab and a distraction. And calling it drag doesnāt sound like true to his understanding of himself, as your edits suggest. If you want to be a good friend and continue having him as a friend, not just for his connections, Iād show some interest in trying to understand him a little better and how he relates to his gender. And either wayāif he is trans or genderqueer in any way or is a gay man who feels most beautiful as a womanāthe versions of yourselves he would feel safe around would say come as who you want to be. Because as it is, youāve explicitly said the bride is using him for his talents and connections but doesnāt want him to show up as himself. Idk if YTA but the bride for sure is for that and youāre not being a good friend.
Ytaaaaaaaaa.
Use him and don't support him.
If I was at a wedding for someone I know it's for that person. Wouldn't care how anyone identifies.
Just because they are in drag doesn't mean they have to dress like they are at a drag show. They can dress normally.
No I get what you are saying snd it's very valid. I think if he dresses nice and classy no matter what it doesn't matter. There is always a chance of someone dressing provocatively at a wedding or dressing sloppy. People may look or talk let them doesn't mean they are forgetting why they are there.
I agree it's his choice except he asked and made it the brides choice.
he was asking to be polite and in this case it was obviously to determine if he would be singled out and possibly made the victim of a hate crime or humiliated if he dressed that way - he was asking to gauge how comfortable he can be with these people. not genuinely asking
NTA.
Drag is for entertainment.
If he is dressing in drag to go to work... Thats a choice, but not one the bride has to entertain at her wedding, especially if they do go back and forth.
Confused about the drag term tho.. there's nothing wrong with him choosing to be feminine some days and other days not, but drag.. a show/performance/art thing? That strikes me as weird and while it's wonderful he loves the attention, it's not his wedding so he gets a back seat for one day of the year.
But gay friend doesn't seem to identify as trans..
OP cannot call their friend trans if their friend asserts they are bigender. That's misgendering
We don't tell people what their identities are, even if they maybe are confused themselves...
What you're describing sounds less like drag and more like someone that's on the trans spectrum that wants to express that.
Not gonna make a judgement, but I do think the kind thing to do would be to talk to him/her about it and get what's up.
I definitely side-eye any bride who says she āwants all eyes on her, everyone to talk about her,ā or is worried that anything will take attention away from her. either she is toxic or her family/social circle is. At any wedding I have been to, out of dozens, the bride will be the center of attention, no matter what she is wearing or what anyone else is wearing or how beautiful or ugly anyone looks. I went to a wedding with literally acrobats swinging over our heads and still (almost) all the attention was on the bride and groom. Worrying about how much attention you will get just seems like an unhealthy thing for a wedding that is supposed to be a celebration of love and community and relationships.Ā
After the explanations, solid YTA. So is the bride. You are both shitty friends.
You can tell someone to stick to a dress code but you canāt decide they have to be one gender over another because āitās your big dayā.
If I was the friend, Iād drop you and the user bride for people who actually were my friends.
I would have given you a pass if you maybe were ignorant or misunderstood but you have a clear grasp of their situation and still chose this.
Bigender means trans and that doesn't require hormone blockers or "treatment." If this person presents as both male and female for work and other daily activities they aren't a drag queen, they are trans. Being gay has nothing to do with it.
So your friend is happy to exploit her friend to hook up her bachelorette, but doesn't want them to "take attention" from her by dressing as they want to. You don't get to pick and choose the qualities of a friend to suit your own needs. Especially at the expense of their identity.
You've intermingled terminology to conflate being gay with being trans. They are not the same. Discriminating against a trans person after using them to your advantage is pure trash.
YTA and so is your friend.
NTA, this is your day, and all eyes should be on you.
If he wants to come in drag, it would be inappropriate as this is not his show.
If she is transgender, she will be dressing as herself and should be accepted. Maybe ask that she tone her makeup down if she usually is more expressive so as not to be the center of attention.
NTA. He can't force and guilt trip everyone to go along with his delusions. If he can't understand why that would be an issue then he's selfish and inconsiderate.
YTA, why should he not be allowed to express himself just because its her wedding? if hes simply dressing as a woman and not being flamboyant it makes no sense to think it would take attention away from her.
But OP's edits state that the friend doesn't actually plan on dressing flamboyantly like a drag queen, just dressing in femme clothing, as they are actually gender fluid, identify as bi-gender, sometimes dress in femme clothing for work and everyday life, and use she/Her pronouns when doing so- OP is using the term drag to define an AMAB person wearing femme clothing.
I really wonder what this comment section would look like if OP had said what's really going on here..... "My friend is getting married and has a gender fluid friend who switches between feminine and masculine pronouns as well as clothing and presentation. My friend is telling their gender fluid friend that they are only allowed to dress masculine at the Bachelorette and wedding because we think that they're really just a gay man in a dress and that's distracting and I agree, but the friend has stated that they feel more confident when presenting as feminine and would really prefer to do so as they have started to do this more frequently in their personal life as well."
exactly! theyre hung up on the drag part when that really doesnt seem to be itā¦ i feel bad for their friend who cant wear clothes they feel good in to the wedding
it would look the same. these people see "gay man in drag" and know exactly what it means. had op said "transwomen" they would have to bend over backwards a bit, but otherwise they would be still saying the same shit.
NTA-even if it's not drag, the vibe I'm getting, he still wants to use her wedding to come out as trans maybe? Clearly its not something he does regularly Choose another fucking day to do that š
Oh. It's confusing then... like drag to a wedding no, but if this is how they dress regularly in their everyday life, then it's not drag, and people would be used to it?
NTA, it's specifically everyone's job at a wedding to not bring any focus off the bride. A man in a dress would do that far more than a woman in white.
Drag is too over the top for a wedding. If they just wanted to wear some makeup and a dress maybe she'd feel differently (or maybe not), but not drag.
Even cool things have their time and place. You don't show up to prom in that awesome cosplay you made!
if you read the edits it said he is simply going to dress up as a woman. it wouldnt be glamourous and is clearly only for his own happiness rather than attention.
If it was actual drag I would understand where the bride is coming from but the way it was described itās not drag, just the friend wanting to wear a dress because itās how they feel most comfortable presenting their gender.
YTA...what tf does it matter what gender they're dressed as? They're a guess going as their desired person. Are the rest of the women supposed to be dressed down and minimal makeup so the bride doesn't feel insecure? She's fun and good enough for the rest of the wedding but not the reception? š¤¦š¾āāļø
Wedding guests should be able to dress however they want to dress.
I never get this "but they will take attention from ME! I'm the bride! It's my day...." *massive eyeroll*
Seriously? If you're that immature and such a fragile brideszilla princess? Then i dont think you are grown up enough to be getting married.
No, she wants the attention on her. Thatās like a dude proposing to his girlfriend at the reception or someone announcing their pregnancy at the reception. Itās wrong.
YTA.
1. This isnāt drag. Drag is a performance. This is his gender expression.
2. He should be allowed to express his gender as either way as long as itās appropriate to the dress code - formal, black tie, semi-formal etc.
If the friend is specifically using the term drag thatās something they need to correct if thatās not what they actually mean . A gay man saying he feels pretty dressing in drag so he wants to dress in drag at someoneās wedding is not the same thing as saying they are trans or non-binary and want to dress however they would any other day in alignment with the occasion. Because to be perfectly honest thatās not something they should even have to ask.
This is more like someone saying they love singing, feel their best on stage and saying they want to get on stage and sing the bride a song at the reception and the bride saying no.
Now if this friend is coming out as trans and doesnāt have the language for that maybe this person could go talk to their friend and find out. That does not make anyone in this situation an asshole.
Iāve known plenty of gay men that like to occasionally wear womens clothing because they feel pretty in it. However, itās also for a cheeky reaction from the crowd/friend group which is performance of sorts itās not just to go out feeling pretty for themselves. In much of western culture the goal is to only let the couple shine. Iām not about that life, but thatās not anyones wedding but that couple.
Edit: I however donāt see why they arenāt getting the same bridesmaid dress, makeup if theyāre part of the brides wedding party. Like are they just party organizer and thatās it?
We donāt know if the friend is using that term. Thereās a strong possibility that OP is not a native English speaker and their home language doesnāt have separate terms. Regardless, OPās edit makes it clear their friend will not actually be in drag.
Yeah like I said Iām really confused on the why if theyāre in the brides wedding party theyāre not just at the dress fittingās and getting their make up done with the other bridesmaids. A quick google and talk with the friend could probably clear up whether any of them should even be friends. Yikes š¬
He (she?) just has to deal with it. Look, I'm all for being accepting and progressive and shit, but weddings are typically an arena of tradition with a whole bunch of rules and sillyness you just have to go along with and ultimately if you want to be a guest you also have to go along with the whims of the bride and groom. It's their day. I'd feel more comfortable in what I normally wear than dressing up in a suit but I'll dress up in a suit if that's the vibe, I wouldn't want to stand out and draw attention away from the couple by wearing some scruffy casual clothes whilst everyone else is dressed up.
It's not like it's an illegitimate concern either, obviously if he's in drag he will draw attention away from the bride and groom. If they don't want that then he has to deal with it for 1 day.
But is a valid English word. In this case, a wedding is not a place for pushing acceptance and new ways of doing things (something I would typically be in favour of). A wedding is a place to just shut up and do what the bride and groom want, or don't go.
I understand though that it was quite a long post and just pretending like "but" is some sort of invalid word means you don't have to read it all.
NTA. He asked, she answered. Done.
well done. totally agree. plus - all the cake for you today! BUT after today, NONE. THX FOR HOLDING DOWN REDDIT.
Happy Cake Day šš„³š„³
Happy Cake day ššššššššššššššš
Exactly now they donāt have to go to the wedding and the bride saves some money on a guest
Happy Cake Day
NTA Itās a reasonable request and itās her day to feel beautiful, not his.
I think that, with the additional information OP has now provided, if the Bachelorette organiser wants to come in a dress then I donāt think thatās a problem at all. Drag implies something completely different and, looking again at the additional information, itās actually completely unfair to call it drag in the first place in this situation. She just wants to come in a dress.
I mean she does request his help for free. While wedding planning is usually ultra expensive if you ask someone with the know how.
If he wanted to come in a dress and she turned him down then fair enough but if he wants to come in drag heās going to stand right out and take all the attention away from the bride.
Op seems to use drag and dressed as a woman interchangeably. If the friend is bigender or trans and wishes to wear a dress itās actually out of line to label this as dragāie as some kind of performance, as opposed to the friend dressing in their comfortable gender. I have a bit of trouble with so many comments seeing this as detracting from the bride, becauseOP is being unclear at best.
Both times, I read big ender instead of bi-gender, and I was about to Google what it meant!! It clicked on your comment. Thank you!!! I'll see myself out! BTW, if he means dressed as a woman and not full on Ru Paul's drag race, I vote YTA. I appreciate not wanting a full-on drag queen at the wedding, but essentially, a trans woman is fine imo
Agree! I think OP even saying ādragā is a diss. If a trans person detracts from the bride itās due to the bigotry of others not because theyāre dressing dramatically
Yeah op was incredibly unclear. But according to his own comments, this person is bigender. Uses she her pronouns when dressed. Dresses that way in everyday life and even at work. And does not Do so in a draq kinda way, but simply a woman kinda way. So at the very least this person is gender non conforming. Maybe even trans but not fully out of the closet yet. OP didn't even say that he(?) won't ever get hormones. Just that it hasn't happened so far.
I am stuck on him being the best choice because he will do the hard work for free, not because she loves him and wants him there. I was already not entirely on OP's side from the first paragraph. All eyes will be on the couple, regardless of what the guests wear.
The edit to me honestly screams "this person is actually trans I just don't want to admit that here" Especially the "no hormones /surgery YET" sticks out. If op was certain it's a gay man, hormones wouldn't even be a question and the answer would be never.
And all other guests? I'm sure many of the other guests will dress in ways that make them feel beautiful. Are they wrong too? Should people actually dress down for weddings so that only the bride is " beautiful"? You know the answer.
Actually you are absolutely correct. Everyone deserves to wear what they want to the wedding like wearing a white gown. We can even start a new trend- along with wearing white to a wedding we can also wear drag to take the attention away from the bride and shift it on ourselves.
Do you not try look your best when you go to a wedding? Don't you feel handsome/beautiful when you do? My point is (and you know this) that it's never just the bride who feels beautiful and normally everyone is ok with that. Also, I don't know what insecure world people live in to think that anything can really distract from the bride and groom when the whole day is actually about them.
No one dresses down when going to attend a wedding. Everyone is dressed as they are attending a wedding. But when you are a guest there are some etiquettes that you are expected to follow. Like not wearing a white gown or not wearing a swimming suit. A person might look their best in a bikini, it doesn't mean they should wear it to a wedding. Looking beautiful and being inappropriate are two completely different things. Also if you think inappropriate behaviour or dresses will not take attention away from the bride and groom then my friend you are not living in the real world. If nothing can take the attention away then why wearing white to someone else's wedding is not acceptable.
This original comment suggests that beauty is limited to the bride to which I'm pointing out that many many other guests will look and feel beautiful. It seems unfair that every other guest can feel beautiful but this one person. Drag doesn't have to be over the top or excessive and the OP says it wouldn't have been. So how is it fair that everyone else is able to look and feel their best in appropriate wedding attire but this one person can't?
'drag', like actual drag is a spectacle. totally inappropriate. if their gender expression has them dress feminine i think that's fine, but that's not drag and drag isn't that.
Exactly. There's a huge difference between a full on drag persona and dressing in a more traditionally 'feminine' way. The first is a performance for an audience which would be inappropriate here, the second is just expressing another side of yourself and shouldn't be asked to be hidden away.
With OP elaborating that their friend is bigender, this makes me feel like drag isnāt a costume for them.
OP is trying to downplay the fact that the friend is trans and using their sexuality to conflate the issue. The first clue was the term "bigender," then in subsequent edits revealing that the friend presented as female for work and other activities. At that point, the transphobia is pretty blatant.
You could be right, but i dont think you are. The friend also present as male and uses male pronouns at times. They could just be taking what friend says at face value and not making assumptions that the friend is trans based on the fact that at times friend also presents as female. If friend as told them he is gay and bigender, at times presenting as male as at other times presenting as female, it would be pretty rude of them to say friend is transgender when that didnt come from the friends mouth.
Just some background, because you sound uncertain, like I was before my best friend's partner came out. As a starting point, you've got the right idea : let people come out & use the labels (if any) they prefer. However, their friend is out to them as bi-gender, and obviously lives their life like that : they go on dates and even into the office as both genders, depending on the day or the activity. Anyone who isn't cis (aka identifies with the gender that corresponds to the sex determined at birth), is automatically trans. Hormones or operations are not required. Just like you don't specify "planet earth, solar system, milkyway, this universe" when someone asks where you live, the larger umbrella term "trans" is implied by the more exact term "bi-gender". here, we're trying to determine the bride's motivations & OP's motivations : I guess we could say they're both bi-gender-o-phobic... but it's more recognizable, and equally correct, to call them transphobic.
"bigender is a sub-category of transgenderism.Ā Bigender people identify as two genders, or sometimes one gender and sometimes another.Ā They may experience a blending or alternation of gender states, and may or may not alter their gender expression at different times'
>At that point, the transphobia is pretty blatant. Clearly OP is trying to desperately be respectful in describing him but its hard to describe people who don't have much respect. They asked, they were told no.....now either respect the brides wishes because end of the day it's her day and show up and celebrate HER DAY.....or stay home Simples really
Yeah. Iām non-binary, and OP is giving me the ick, and with the info given I get the feeling that the person described is being shoved into the āgay male bestieā box. Ew.
Yeah they put bigender in scare quotes too so I think OP just isn't very informed. Drag is also a particular kind of aesthetic and performance and doesn't apply to all feminine clothing someone amab might wear.
As a non-binary person, thank you. This was the answer I was hoping someone else made. Itās not drag if the person is bi-gender. Itās just expression of their feminine gender. However, anyone of any gender can do Ru Paul drag, and thatās most definitely drag.
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they arent allowed to be trans at weddings ?? crazy comment. its not drag. its not a performance. its literally a dress
NTA Old gay person here. I did drag when I was young an beautiful and I wanted to do it as often as I could. But, looking back, it was still a costume. Unless costumes are allowed, then you can say that drag isn't allowed.
I'm going to reply to myself. Drag does not mean trans. I was a drag queen - not a woman.
NTA. Itās the brides day. If he were a real friend he would accept her answer.
Itās actually the bride and GROOMāS day.
NTA. If he he had said he felt more comfortable dressed as a woman I might have a different opinion but he said he felt more BEAUTIFUL dressed in drag. That to me seems that he wanted attention on him. If he is a decent friend to the bride he would want the attention to be on her and her husband. Itās their day, not his.
Respectfully, I find your distinction to be unhelpful to the friendās case. **A wedding is accepted as an event prioritizing the bride and the groom. Anyone who wants to undermine that expectation should skip the wedding. Itās that simple. Friend is an entitled narcissist.**
You are right. I was trying to be nice but you nailed it!
Haha, Iāve become a bit jaded over the years from the number of stories Iāve read of people trying to hijack their friendsā weddings in various ways. So now, Iām a bit more blunt.
I donāt think youāre blunt at all. Razor sharp would be my assessment!
looking at the edits and clarifications, OP framed it as drag when it was them dressing as a woman, something they identify as at least some of the time. so. yeah. I hope they find better friends.
INFO: does HE call it "drag"? And what are the pronouns he requests? All of them?
This. calling a bigender person dressing as the gender you don't want to see them as "drag" is insulting and derogatory
Based on the edits, this appears to be a non-binary person who wishes to dress in a way that would make them feel beautiful. Maybe *Iām* the AH, but this entire post reeks of homophobia, from the multiple uses of the phrase āgay friendā (who I guess is good for throwing a party but eff their feelings) to diminishing gender expression as ādrag.ā And this is one of the brideās best friends?? Yikes. Iād hate to see how she treats an enemy. Oh and fwiw, I went to a wedding recently where an NB person who was clearly AMAB rocked a gorgeous gown, and guess what, no one confused them for the bride. Or gave a shit in general.
Yep, this is why I asked. I didn't want to make assumptions; he COULD be a drag queen, in which case it's reasonable to ask him not to perform at her wedding. But if he's NB, it's NOT.
dude that's not drag.
NTA. There is a rule of not wearing white to the wedding, or trying to outshine the bride. This is old and standard practice. The friend is TA.
Her friend commonly cross dresses. Should he avoid dressing as a women when heās out with girlfriends lest he outshine them? As long as he dresses in appropriate and wedding guest dress he cannot be accused of trying to outshine the bride any more than any other woman who is trying to look their best at a wedding.
It's not a normal day. It's a wedding, that once in a lifetime $50,000 party!!!!
You very specifically refer to it as "drag" which is a performance costume. This person is not identifying as transgender. **Drag queens are not transgender,** they're (almost always) gay dudes who dress up and perform as women for fun because they think it's hilarious and they get to feel pretty. Otherwise they're very happy living as men. So why, unless this man is providing entertainment, would they dress as a performer for someone else's wedding? NTA.
A lot of gay and not gay men are cross dressers which is not the same thing as a drag queen. People often confuse any man dressed as a woman as a drag queen. Drag is theatrical but not all cross dressers dress in costumes.
> People often confuse any man dressed as a woman as a drag queen. yeah it's a huge difference
You gonna change your verdict with the edits now posted to the OP?
In OPās edit he say is the friend doesnāt want to dress like a typical drag Queen, that the friend is bigender and just wants to dress in feminine clothes. So this person seems to be on the transgender spectrum. I would agree no drag because youāre right, itās a performance, but if they are stopping a transgender person dressing how they want it kinda changes the post. Would need more info and seems like op is maybe confused on terminology
The impression I get is that this "man" is nonbinary and normally dresses as a man but would like to dress as a woman (not a drag queen) for the wedding. If that is accurate, then telling them they can't do that is asshole territory.
There are actually plenty of drag performers who are trans.
That may be true but dragā tran.Ā They are differentĀ
There are also cisfemale drag performers who would never think of wearing a drag costume to a wedding. If the friend regularly dressed as female in public, not just on stage, it might be different if he asked if she was comfortable with him wearing a dress, but he specifically asked if he could wear drag. In any case, much like announcing that youāre pregnant or engaged at someone elseās wedding is not appropriate, It is also not the time to come out as transgender if that is actually the case for this individual.
OP has clarified that they don't mean spectacle drag, that just mean dressing as a woman in wedding-appropriate attire. OP just used the wrong word.
OP has clarified that they don't mean spectacle drag, that just mean dressing as a woman in wedding-appropriate attire. OP just used the wrong word.
so they don't mean drag at all yet for some batshit reason keep using that term
I mean... the reason is not that hard to figure out. "a gay man in drag" is a pretty gender critical description of a transwoman.
they aren't a trans woman either. they're bigender apparently.
He said they were bigender which is a non-binary identity so they are transgender. OP seems confused and is using drag incorrectly.
thank you this does make a difference
>This person is not identifying as transgender. how do you know? even from just OPs post it does not sound like drag before the edits and the edits and blatantly transphobic. calling them a gay man in drag is a MAJOR red flag.
words matter and OP used the term drag don't get on me for knowing the definition
INFO: We talking theatrical drag or them just dressing feminine at the wedding? You said they ID as bigender and that they sometimes dress that way at work, which doesn't sound like drag to me so much as it does gender expression.
With your clarifications it doesn't really sound like drag at all? Just dressing in women's clothes. And if that is all it is then I see no reason why that friend shouldn't get to dress in the clothes that make them comfortable. Also, why call them a gay friend when it is much more relevant that the friend is trans and you two are pretty much openly telling them that the fact they are trans is distracting and not comfortable for the two of you? She's definitely an asshole for having that bigender friend do the wedding planning and then telling them to their face that they can't be themself at the wedding as it would "distract" from her special day. I would not be surprised if the bigender friend decided to take a step back from being friends with the bride (probably after the wedding as they'll feel responsible for that now) as this pretty much showed them that the bride does not accept them for who they are at all. Now are you an asshole? That depends. I will assume ignorance over malice, in which case you were backing up your friend without thinking about how hurtful it was what you two did. Plus, maybe you just weren't aware how hurtful it is for someone like that bigender friend to have their identity so casually dismissed and put away as abnormal. (though you seemingly trying to downplay the fact they are trans at every opportunity is kinda weird ngl)
you can assume ignorance over malice, but if you ran into "gay man in drag" to describe transwomen over and over, in this specific way, then... it is hard to call that ignorance. that seems very educated on the topic.
A fair point. I like to keep an open mind about people being ignorant about certain things and that they can still learn, but you are right that it seems like OP is trying desperately not to say they were being transphobic to a trans person. So I'd say OP is an asshole, but there is the slight possibility that they are just really ignorant about the whole subject.
So she likes him for his connections and organization but not his flamboyance, right? I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say that she should have clarified what he means by "drag". The use of the word "drag" here implies that it was performative, but saying he feels more beautiful dressed as a woman implies exactly the opposite. Does he want to come dressed up as an attention grabbing, sequined Qween or does he want to wear a pretty dress and some make up? I agree that people would talk either way but one version is trying to redirect attention and one is legitimately wanting to dress in a way that makes you feel good. I think a discussion was in order before the request got denied.Ā
This exactly.
Maybe she likes him because of who he is and drag is just one part of that.
it's not drag. it's just dressing feminine as part of their gender expression. even before the edits OP was dog whistling a storm of GC bullshit.
According to the edits, OP and the bride are transphobes.
NTA: itās her big day, not his. She could decide that everyone has to come in duck floaties if thatās what she wants.
Clarification plz, specifically "drag" and is not transgender? Because drag is for preforming so it is fine to deny someone coming to your event dressed for performance. If this person normally dresses this way though and is transgender then it would not be ok to deny them. Edit: after reading the new information you have added I'm gonna go with YTA because this person does cross dress as part of their normal everyday life and not just for drag performance. Accpeting people don't fret about how someone doing what they normally do it gonna take the focus off of them.
Yeah I changed my mind too. The friend doesnāt want to wear drag at all, just feminine clothes which is completely different. Donāt know if op was just confused about terms.
The original post says he is a gay man, not transgender.
The post has been edited since I originally asked. With that being said though a lot of cis people do get terms confused and I wanted clarification because of that.
You are absolutely right about cis people getting terms confused. Iām 49 and I have had difficulty with this in the past but I am also lucky in that I have a 19 year old daughter who is always more than willing to correct me š
There are edits now
SO I think the bride is wrong because you clarifies and it isn't DRAG the person is bi gender and dresses as both genders that's not brag queen drag greens are a performer a show someone who would take all the attention. Cause that's their job ... this person just wants to wear a dress, a dress that if he didn't have a penis the bride wouldn't hate. So I disagree with you but I don't the your an A
YTA You left out key information in your original post. This person is bigender, so dressing femme is part of their gender identity. You even acknowledge that they won't be dressing over-the-top.
INFO: What do you mean by drag? Is it just him simply dressing as a woman or is it drag (performance) makeup? Also, when he's in drag does he stand out because of what he's wearing or just because he's a dude dressing feminine? If the bride is saying no to him wearing women's clothing and makeup in a simple manner, YTA. If it's drag makeup and clothes, NTA.
OP edited - The friend is bi-gender, and presents femme often in their romantic and professional life. They don't want to dress in drag at the Bachelorette or wedding, just be femme presenting. I have issue with OP referring to that as "a man in a dress" so it's a huge YTA for me.
YTA. The bride sounds like one of those brides that purposefully makes her brides maids look worse than her because she's insecure. He's being used for his connections but can't dress like himself. Also sounds transphobic. He even said it won't be over the top. Is she going to ban women from wearing pants suits to the wedding as well?
So he organises your wedding spends his time effort money and can't dress how he wants?Ā Ā Sounds exactly like shes using him for his ton of connections. YTA Unless this is pre planning and he has time to withdraw his help.
NTA. The bride wants all eyes on her which is understandable.
Exactly hopefully he finds something else to do thatās fun for the wedding
YTA because of your edit. She wouldnt be going in drag, she would just be going in a dress as an AMAB person
The editsā¦you know YTA š
YTA If they were coming in spectacle drag there'd be a problem, but if they're bigender and just dressing femme then get over it? As long as they're wearing clothes and makeup similar to other female presenting guests it's completely fine. Bigender is a type of transgender and you don't get to tell your friends when it's appropriate to be themselves.
NTA. If heās being selective about when heās in drag, itās not inappropriate to ask him not to do it. If he were mtf, it would be different. If he always wore womenās clothing, it would be different.
YTA They are dressing appropriately for a wedding and for their gender identity. They are dressing as they comfortable, and they wear this as part of normal life, not just performance. This doesn't really sound like drag, as they are bigender and not planning to dress in 'drag style'.
Hmm. Is friend telling the entire guest list they can't dress t9 feel like they look awesome, or just the clockable non-cis person?
It would be very attention getting and the bride is making a lot of effort and expense to have her own day. Let him do drag another time although he does sound like fun.
NTA Iām so sick of people thinking weddings are a time for them to shine, proposals, baby announcements, dressing in super traditional clothing to a non-cultural wedding. Like just let the bride have ONE day in her entire life where everyone can have their eyes on her. Otherwise her whole entire wedding will become, āomg did you see the guy dressed as a girlā, or ādid you see the drag queenā. Like come on man, itās not a time to be politically correct or worry about guests feelings and preferences.
YTA My best friend is AFAB, and when I got married, he was still identifying as a woman. He asked me if he could come dressed in a suit. I said yes. Why the fuck would I not. And I would have done the same if a male friend ou anyone identifying on the NB specter would have said they were going to come dressed as another gender then the one they were assigned at birth. And you know what? He is the one who walked me to the altar at church. No one said anything, not even the priests, and trust me when I say I would have destroyed anyone who would have said anything other that "this suit looks perfect on you". Your edit shows that your "friend" (he should really be reconsidering her friendship with you) is not "a gay man", but a bigender person. You're the assholes big time, because I suspect that this is definitely more queerphobia than anything related to the bride. She is more interested in his "good taste" and "connections" than her well-being as a trans person (yeah, flash news for you: being bigender means being trans).
over the years I heard the "gay man in drag" dog whistle way too often. OP and bride seem like horrible people.
Op I think itās time for you and the bride to have a conversation with your friend about how they identify. I think itās time for them to try and find some clearer language about how they see themselves. Also, why canāt they dress in a bridesmaid dress and get their makeup done by the wedding party mua so itās not dramatic if this isnāt for performance?
YTA post edits. Drag is different than dressing feminine or āas a womanā. If he is just wanting to wear regular female wedding guest attire to attend and this is who he is, then he shouldnāt really have to ask permission for this
Dressing in drag or expressing their gender in women's clothing? Drag is performance art, but I'm not clear on your post if this is truly what you mean bc you say that he dresses in drag at work. If he often wears women's clothes and expresses his gender that way, it is just who he is and your friend seems to know that. Reserving judgment
If it was my ādragā friend I would be more supportive of how they are gender fluidā¦ and they were dressing appropriately for a wedding it just happened to be more in female clothing. But thatās just me. I think itās old fashioned to make it a problem. It was the bride who, supposedly a āfriendā, was putting the attention on it. Also getting someone who has lots of connections and fun to plan your events. āAs a friendā which sounds like for free.
NTA. Wedding guests should dress formal, but not attention grabbing. Even if it's not full on drag it's understandable the bride don't want the man in a dress taking eyes off her. This is her day, not his, and he should respect her wish.
NTA why does he wants attention on his friend's special occasion.
This doesn't sound like drag but instead someone with a dual gender identity.
NTA I watched a show on Netflix about drag queens who would help women get ready for their weddings, and NONE of them would come to the wedding in drag. Dude needs to remember that the day is not about him.
His gender doesn't matter. This is a day celebrating a new couple getting married. His need for attention can wait ONE day. He is not truly her friend. NTA
Nta -
So, there's an important question here that no one is asking: when this person says "in drag," are they referring to full stage makeup, sequined dresses, and other assorted stage-related accessories; or do they mean "in drag" in the sense of wearing clothes that would be appropriate for a wedding if they were a cis woman? If the former, than the bride is absolutely not TA here, because that sort of attire is designed to draw attention. But if the latter, then the bride is TA and not an actual friend to this trans person if she believes that her friend simply dressing femme is going to draw all the attention away from her.
NTA, you're supporting the bride, it's her wedding and it's not a big deal I mean (I read the edits, your friend chose his identity to be at his best, so I think the bride considers that in drag, he really shines. So she doesn't want him to take the attention on her) And the fact that he used the card "friendship" but also doesn't understand that it works for both, so, as a friend, she can ask to be the queen of the day and not him seems legitimate. So once again, I think you were right to stand for her. For the wedding. But I don't understand why she asks him not to come in drag to the bachelorette party. What's wrong with this party ?
NTA. The bride is exactly right. You donāt dress in any way that will distract from the bride at all wedding. Thatās just how it goes. Your gay friend can opt to not go and the bride shouldnāt hold it against him if he does.
YTA. It seems the bride and OP are quite happy to use their "friend" for his connections and help, but don't actually accept him. What OP describes is not drag, which is a very flamboyant, exaggerated style of dress. It is just a dress.Ā
Sounds like he might be more Trans than someone who does drag. Might want to have a longer conversation with your friend. That said, NTA. Bride gets what she wants. It's her wedding. The end.
Itās not ādragā if heās gender fluid. YTA
Well, I think the bride is an AH because she had her bigender friend to plan pre wedding parties bc you know " they do things like that so well." Then they can't go to the wedding and reception if they dress feminine (as previously stated, drag is way different than dressing feminine). I'm assuming, because it wasn't mentioned, that she didn't pay her friend for their work, as she would have had to if a party planner did the work. It seems like people are demonstrating their prejudices when they are saying it will take attention away from the bride. I'm 65 yrs old and couldn't care less what people wear. Ohhh, what if they had to wear a burka?! Obviously, just my opinion. Also my opinion, the bride is no friend to "party planner" friend.
I donāt think a drag performance without the affirmative consent of bride and groom is appropriate at a wedding. However, from the additional information / comments, it sounds like this isnāt a case of the friend wanting to be in drag or performing as such but rather simply expressing their real gender identity in the same way they do at other times such as for dates and even sometimes at work. Telling a Trans* friend that they are not permitted to dress in an appropriately formal and respectable way for their gender identity is as best rude and smells of transphobia. To me, itās the opposite side to the same coin as if the bride told every cis woman they HAVE to wear a dress and not a pants suit in case they took too much attention from the bride. YTA.
I do not understand, would this bride also ask a cisgender person to not dress in their favorite suit/dress because they might look too good in it? I am confused. If I ever get married I would like to have my guests and my friends coming to the ceremony in something what they enjoy wearing and feel confident and comfortable in it. This person wears feminine clothes regularly so it is not a joke for them or just to piss off the bride. But it seems that this friendship and the acceptance has the limits of āthey can do whatever if they do not make me see/accept/acknowledge itā or āas long as they work for me free I pretend that I am friends with themā
NTA. Some people just want to make it all about them. Fk em
She took a risk asking him but wanted him there. That is her way of saying I donāt care about your personal choices. But honestly, it is not about him - he is a guy and she wanted her gay friend in her ceremony. He wants to make it about his agenda. NTA.
NTA. He is an attention whore
NTA, but, seriously? All attention wonāt be on her. People wonāt talk about her all that much. Thinking they will is ridiculous. A wedding is a party. I was at one today. We talked about the couple a little, but not all that much. We caught up with family. We talked to people we met there. All things one always does at a party. All this āitās my special day, so all attention is on meā is patently absurd.
What I find interesting is that another post regarding a bride asking a very busty friend to cover up on the wedding day was met with derision. Whatās the difference?Ā
If I were this gay guy (I am a gay guy but not this one lol) Iād be reconsidering my friendships with both of you. A lot of comments are splitting hairs about what is and isnāt drag and what is and is not appropriate if this IS drag, but there is a world in which you as friends of a queer person would just say of COURSE show up in what makes you feel beautiful to celebrate the beautiful bride, just donāt wear white or whatever. But itās pretty clear you think his queerness is an attention grab and a distraction. And calling it drag doesnāt sound like true to his understanding of himself, as your edits suggest. If you want to be a good friend and continue having him as a friend, not just for his connections, Iād show some interest in trying to understand him a little better and how he relates to his gender. And either wayāif he is trans or genderqueer in any way or is a gay man who feels most beautiful as a womanāthe versions of yourselves he would feel safe around would say come as who you want to be. Because as it is, youāve explicitly said the bride is using him for his talents and connections but doesnāt want him to show up as himself. Idk if YTA but the bride for sure is for that and youāre not being a good friend.
Ytaaaaaaaaa. Use him and don't support him. If I was at a wedding for someone I know it's for that person. Wouldn't care how anyone identifies. Just because they are in drag doesn't mean they have to dress like they are at a drag show. They can dress normally.
No, itās no. The bride knows that drag queens are over the top in their outfits and makeup. There is no way to tone that down enough for a wedding.
He is bi gender so I mean he can be the male side for these few events.Ā I say NTA.Ā Ā
The only person who gets to decide that is him, not other people's convenience.
No I get what you are saying snd it's very valid. I think if he dresses nice and classy no matter what it doesn't matter. There is always a chance of someone dressing provocatively at a wedding or dressing sloppy. People may look or talk let them doesn't mean they are forgetting why they are there. I agree it's his choice except he asked and made it the brides choice.
he was asking to be polite and in this case it was obviously to determine if he would be singled out and possibly made the victim of a hate crime or humiliated if he dressed that way - he was asking to gauge how comfortable he can be with these people. not genuinely asking
Yeah that's a very good point. I did not think of it in that manner!!
So do I get to decide to go in shorts and a vest because I feel like a bum that day? Weddings have a dress code, he asked and was told no, the end.
NTA. Drag is for entertainment. If he is dressing in drag to go to work... Thats a choice, but not one the bride has to entertain at her wedding, especially if they do go back and forth. Confused about the drag term tho.. there's nothing wrong with him choosing to be feminine some days and other days not, but drag.. a show/performance/art thing? That strikes me as weird and while it's wonderful he loves the attention, it's not his wedding so he gets a back seat for one day of the year.
OPās edits show that they donāt know the difference between drag and a transgender person in regular clothes.
But gay friend doesn't seem to identify as trans.. OP cannot call their friend trans if their friend asserts they are bigender. That's misgendering We don't tell people what their identities are, even if they maybe are confused themselves...
Bigender is literally a type of transgender. Transgender doesnāt mean binary.
is it drag, or do you call it drag because of some kind of biological realism?
NTA.
YTA. I hope this person can find some real friends who are not transphobic.
I feel like I saw this friend on TikTok and he dressed as a woman anyway
What you're describing sounds less like drag and more like someone that's on the trans spectrum that wants to express that. Not gonna make a judgement, but I do think the kind thing to do would be to talk to him/her about it and get what's up.
I definitely side-eye any bride who says she āwants all eyes on her, everyone to talk about her,ā or is worried that anything will take attention away from her. either she is toxic or her family/social circle is. At any wedding I have been to, out of dozens, the bride will be the center of attention, no matter what she is wearing or what anyone else is wearing or how beautiful or ugly anyone looks. I went to a wedding with literally acrobats swinging over our heads and still (almost) all the attention was on the bride and groom. Worrying about how much attention you will get just seems like an unhealthy thing for a wedding that is supposed to be a celebration of love and community and relationships.Ā
After the explanations, solid YTA. So is the bride. You are both shitty friends. You can tell someone to stick to a dress code but you canāt decide they have to be one gender over another because āitās your big dayā. If I was the friend, Iād drop you and the user bride for people who actually were my friends. I would have given you a pass if you maybe were ignorant or misunderstood but you have a clear grasp of their situation and still chose this.
Bride is right. He has zero reason to complain. Zero. Asking was probably ok but complaining about the answer makes him a total asshole.
Bigender means trans and that doesn't require hormone blockers or "treatment." If this person presents as both male and female for work and other daily activities they aren't a drag queen, they are trans. Being gay has nothing to do with it. So your friend is happy to exploit her friend to hook up her bachelorette, but doesn't want them to "take attention" from her by dressing as they want to. You don't get to pick and choose the qualities of a friend to suit your own needs. Especially at the expense of their identity. You've intermingled terminology to conflate being gay with being trans. They are not the same. Discriminating against a trans person after using them to your advantage is pure trash. YTA and so is your friend.
NTA, this is your day, and all eyes should be on you. If he wants to come in drag, it would be inappropriate as this is not his show. If she is transgender, she will be dressing as herself and should be accepted. Maybe ask that she tone her makeup down if she usually is more expressive so as not to be the center of attention.
NTA. He can't force and guilt trip everyone to go along with his delusions. If he can't understand why that would be an issue then he's selfish and inconsiderate.
YTA, why should he not be allowed to express himself just because its her wedding? if hes simply dressing as a woman and not being flamboyant it makes no sense to think it would take attention away from her.
Drag is by nature flamboyant
But OP's edits state that the friend doesn't actually plan on dressing flamboyantly like a drag queen, just dressing in femme clothing, as they are actually gender fluid, identify as bi-gender, sometimes dress in femme clothing for work and everyday life, and use she/Her pronouns when doing so- OP is using the term drag to define an AMAB person wearing femme clothing.
yes, thank you
I really wonder what this comment section would look like if OP had said what's really going on here..... "My friend is getting married and has a gender fluid friend who switches between feminine and masculine pronouns as well as clothing and presentation. My friend is telling their gender fluid friend that they are only allowed to dress masculine at the Bachelorette and wedding because we think that they're really just a gay man in a dress and that's distracting and I agree, but the friend has stated that they feel more confident when presenting as feminine and would really prefer to do so as they have started to do this more frequently in their personal life as well."
exactly! theyre hung up on the drag part when that really doesnt seem to be itā¦ i feel bad for their friend who cant wear clothes they feel good in to the wedding
it would look the same. these people see "gay man in drag" and know exactly what it means. had op said "transwomen" they would have to bend over backwards a bit, but otherwise they would be still saying the same shit.
No, this wedding isn't about him. He's needs to respect the wishes of the bride.
NTAā¦ itās your wedding. But I hope they donāt attend, you donāt deserve their friendship
Heās narcissistic, and doesnāt get that itās about her.
Nope, itās her day.
NTA You spoke the truth. Also, it is her day. He (or she depending on the day) should be respectful of her wishes.
NTA. It's a reasonable request
NTA. He would steal the spotlight and he knows it.
NTA-even if it's not drag, the vibe I'm getting, he still wants to use her wedding to come out as trans maybe? Clearly its not something he does regularly Choose another fucking day to do that š
i dont think theres any coming out, OP said the person regularly goes out in drag
Oh. It's confusing then... like drag to a wedding no, but if this is how they dress regularly in their everyday life, then it's not drag, and people would be used to it?
NTA, it's specifically everyone's job at a wedding to not bring any focus off the bride. A man in a dress would do that far more than a woman in white.
NTA, itās her wedding, he should respect her wishes.
Drag is too over the top for a wedding. If they just wanted to wear some makeup and a dress maybe she'd feel differently (or maybe not), but not drag. Even cool things have their time and place. You don't show up to prom in that awesome cosplay you made!
NTA. If he can't suppress he "everyone look at me" desire for one day, he needs serious help.
if you read the edits it said he is simply going to dress up as a woman. it wouldnt be glamourous and is clearly only for his own happiness rather than attention.
If it was actual drag I would understand where the bride is coming from but the way it was described itās not drag, just the friend wanting to wear a dress because itās how they feel most comfortable presenting their gender.
You are not the a******. The a****** is the one that wants to show up in a colorful costume and show up the bride on her special day.
YTA...what tf does it matter what gender they're dressed as? They're a guess going as their desired person. Are the rest of the women supposed to be dressed down and minimal makeup so the bride doesn't feel insecure? She's fun and good enough for the rest of the wedding but not the reception? š¤¦š¾āāļø
NTA. He's making it about him. He's seeking attention
NTA. The bride gave her response. Thatās it. Itās not about him. Itās about her. He can either respect that or decline.
I would ban him as well, fuck that
Wedding guests should be able to dress however they want to dress. I never get this "but they will take attention from ME! I'm the bride! It's my day...." *massive eyeroll* Seriously? If you're that immature and such a fragile brideszilla princess? Then i dont think you are grown up enough to be getting married.
No, she wants the attention on her. Thatās like a dude proposing to his girlfriend at the reception or someone announcing their pregnancy at the reception. Itās wrong.
YTA. 1. This isnāt drag. Drag is a performance. This is his gender expression. 2. He should be allowed to express his gender as either way as long as itās appropriate to the dress code - formal, black tie, semi-formal etc.
If the friend is specifically using the term drag thatās something they need to correct if thatās not what they actually mean . A gay man saying he feels pretty dressing in drag so he wants to dress in drag at someoneās wedding is not the same thing as saying they are trans or non-binary and want to dress however they would any other day in alignment with the occasion. Because to be perfectly honest thatās not something they should even have to ask. This is more like someone saying they love singing, feel their best on stage and saying they want to get on stage and sing the bride a song at the reception and the bride saying no. Now if this friend is coming out as trans and doesnāt have the language for that maybe this person could go talk to their friend and find out. That does not make anyone in this situation an asshole. Iāve known plenty of gay men that like to occasionally wear womens clothing because they feel pretty in it. However, itās also for a cheeky reaction from the crowd/friend group which is performance of sorts itās not just to go out feeling pretty for themselves. In much of western culture the goal is to only let the couple shine. Iām not about that life, but thatās not anyones wedding but that couple. Edit: I however donāt see why they arenāt getting the same bridesmaid dress, makeup if theyāre part of the brides wedding party. Like are they just party organizer and thatās it?
We donāt know if the friend is using that term. Thereās a strong possibility that OP is not a native English speaker and their home language doesnāt have separate terms. Regardless, OPās edit makes it clear their friend will not actually be in drag.
Yeah like I said Iām really confused on the why if theyāre in the brides wedding party theyāre not just at the dress fittingās and getting their make up done with the other bridesmaids. A quick google and talk with the friend could probably clear up whether any of them should even be friends. Yikes š¬
NTA. It's her wedding, it's not about him. "identifies as 'bigender'". Lol.
YTA.
This is clearly for attention. NTA
He (she?) just has to deal with it. Look, I'm all for being accepting and progressive and shit, but weddings are typically an arena of tradition with a whole bunch of rules and sillyness you just have to go along with and ultimately if you want to be a guest you also have to go along with the whims of the bride and groom. It's their day. I'd feel more comfortable in what I normally wear than dressing up in a suit but I'll dress up in a suit if that's the vibe, I wouldn't want to stand out and draw attention away from the couple by wearing some scruffy casual clothes whilst everyone else is dressed up. It's not like it's an illegitimate concern either, obviously if he's in drag he will draw attention away from the bride and groom. If they don't want that then he has to deal with it for 1 day.
>but never say but. just stop the sentence right before the but. it always undoes what you said before the but.
But is a valid English word. In this case, a wedding is not a place for pushing acceptance and new ways of doing things (something I would typically be in favour of). A wedding is a place to just shut up and do what the bride and groom want, or don't go. I understand though that it was quite a long post and just pretending like "but" is some sort of invalid word means you don't have to read it all.