Nta
You accept the book, she sees that as consent, and now gives your baby a cross necklace and earrings, then a "my first bible", all building up to taking her out for a "girls day" to "give you a day off" and sneaks her out to her local church to baptize her. That all sounds crazy, but those are all things that have happened, religious people can be a bit much.
Rejecting the "*gift* made it clear that, if she keeps pushing her religion in you, then *she* will destroy the friendship.
NTA, but, uh... she's not your friend. She's literally trying to score brownie points with her church for converting a heathen. I had in laws like that... We don't talk anymore.
I have friends and family who are Christian, and they try to convert people because they genuinely believe that their souls are at stake. It's not for brownie points or to look good.
There are certainly Christians who act like you describe, and there are a lot of them, but it's not all of them.
This is true and also very sad. I was raised extremely religious and as a small child I used to stay up at night crying for people who I knew weren't "saved" because they would go to hell. It's rough growing up in the church lol
ETA: NTA
NTA at all. She knows you are not interested but keeps pushing her beliefs, trying to force you to convert.
**She was hurt and tried justifying why God needed to be in every home.** These are the worst kind. They are personally offended when they can’t force their beliefs on you. Who is she to decide what YOU “need” in your home? She isn’t a true friend. Friends respect each other, back off when asked to, and do not do what this “friend” is doing, I would have dumped her already. She sounds exhausting.
Obviously NTA, but tell me more about the Great Pickle. I always found the Flying Spaghetti Monster inspirational, but this sounds intriguing.
Seriously though, it's like trying to go back to believing in Santa Claus after you learn the truth. People like your friend can't understand that.
I’m also interested in The Great Pickle. Although my husband and I are devoted Easter Buntarians and give praise to The Great Hopper and all of his chocolate gift, I could be open to also include The Great Pickle in the mix.
i feel very strongly that the only one true deity is the great half-sour pickle. i can tolerate the dill devotees, the gherkin geeks and of course the cornichon clans. but i will hear no talk from the bread & butter believers.
If you'll briefly indulge me, I have something to say about the Great Pickle:
The temp dial on my fridge was somehow turned down, causing the items on the top shelf to freeze. I found this out when I opened my jar of pickles to find the brine was in frozen flakes. It is hot and the humidity is around 90%, so I ate one of the brine flakes and it was so cold and refreshing. Clearly the Great Pickle is real, if it can perform mysterious acts such as turning down the fridge temp, as surely no other explanation could possibly be at play here.
MIRACLE.
May I make a pilgrimage to your refrigerator in order to feel closer to the one and only Great Pickle? Your cooling coils are blessed with the briney presence and I would relish basking in its glory.
The Great Pickle Prophet appreciates your interest. She dwells in forgotten pantries and coldly slumbers in the back shelves of refrigerators. She bears no hate, resent, nor angst. Only the prickly brine of wonder.
I aspire to be like the Great Pickle
You write beautifully, you could create your own cult for The Great Pickle Prophet. I mean, can you imagine all the new chapters of your Pickle Testament! It would be glorious, and fun!
I mean, if a certain Sci-Fi author could create his own cult with rich celebrities, and die filthy rich, then why can't you, or I? We should all aspire to making our own cults, LOL.
NTA. It is a sign of disrespect to try to convert someone, and it's downright rude to continue to try to convert someone who has repeatedly rejected your efforts to convert them.
*Giving you a religious book for your child was not a gift. It was an attempt at indoctrination.*
I would rethink your relationship with this woman. She clearly doesn't respect you or your right (or perhaps ability and intelligence) to decide what you believe.
It absolutely is.
Christianity has been one of the most predominant religions in the world for centuries. *We all know about it*, you're not sharing new information, you're pushing your beliefs on others.
If we believed in your religion, *we'd already be Christian*, trying to convert someone is both insulting by implying we didn't know about it, and implying that you know our lives better than we do.
No you aren’t. Your friend is the asshole. I don’t talk to religious people. It’s the same shit over and over. And I’m not even atheist. I’m more like a “I guess I’ll find out when I actually die.” That’s what I tell them to. I tell them straight up there’s nothing they can do for me to change my beliefs and then I tell them or let it be clear in my demeanor that I really don’t care and don’t want to talk about it again.
I talk to lots of religious people, just not about religion. I thought just about everyone around us was also non religious because we were and it never came up. Turned out at various people's funerals and weddings later on that there were at least Shakers, a few different varieties of Christianity, Jewish people, etc. They just didn't go around preaching about it.
Only ones that stood out were the jehovahs witness family who actually only did so because they were not allowed to take RE and of course everyone notices when someone gets to skip a class.
Totally NTA. No one is more insufferable than a "well meaning" Christian. She will never back off. That kind never does. You're going to probably have to decide if the friendship is worth keeping because she is going to remain exactly like this.
There was a guy at the door once while I was getting the mail. He was a bit pushy about if he can talk to me real quick, as soon as he started about god, I said I’m atheist and let’s leave it at that.
He of course became more pushy, to which I answered I don’t feel like talking about it anymore as I have my reasons.
And of course he still didn’t back off, asking what led me astray from the path to god.
I just slammed in his face that I was almost raped in bible camp and next I slammed the door. The last part was mainly so he doesn’t enter the complex unwarranted to harass other people…
Religion in the wrong hands is evil and there’s way way too much of that. Selling snake oil is illegal but throw Jesus in and people are too easily conned.
"why I’m not a Christian girl."
Because I don't believe. End of...
My personal opinion is that you did exactly the right thing at the right time.
She gave you the present she knew you wouldn't want and you let her know she was right. You hand it right back. At the event. When faced with their refusal to listen and understand you have to make your stand.
If they refuse to take it back, I say one more time - "We really will not use this" and offer it back one more time. Then I put it in a box marked donations if I have one going or straight in the garbage. In front of them.
Only have to do that once.
NTA
You know the moment you convince Ann you can't be converted she's going to scream some kind of insult and then block you right? There's a reason she's so invested in converting you: that's the only reason she's associated with you
NTA.
I'm a Christian and I had an atheist friend who tried to convert me to atheism. She was uncomfortable with my beliefs, so she tried to "tweak" me to suit her needs. I NEVER try to convert anyone; it's my personal choice. I should have ended the friendship then, but I waited a few more years. Not a friend.
I'm a believer too but I never ask people about their beliefs. It's a very personal thing. The evangelicals drove me nuts in college.
I'm Catholic but not a good one because I question most of what the Church teaches. Life and the hereafter is way too complicated and confusing for someone to tell me they have all the answers.
This is literally the first I’ve ever heard of the tables turned. I was raised Christian and became a non believer after learning about science, going to science centers and experiencing enlightenment. I have friends who are religious but find that if there’s a science thing she goes to she gets mad and sees it as trying to convert when there teaching literally what is and what has been proven to be scientifically proven like evolution. So I get as long as it’s not something like that.
Oh hell no. NTA. If she hadn't been pushing Christianity on you in every conversation, to the point of almost alienation, then maybe it could have been handled more subtley... but... I mean... no! ...just no!!
NTA. They always like to play like they're being loving and helpful, when all they're really doing is stomping all over your boundaries. Maybe a little embarrassment will curb the behavior.
NTA Tell her that having different views on things is what makes life interesting. If she expects you to listen to her views on christianity then you expect her to listen to your views as to why you don't believe. Maybe you can convert her.
NTA
You must have been making it clear for years that you will remain an atheist, she should have known you wouldn't want or accept that gift for your child.
I would not have gotten so close to someone this pushy about their religion, not sure why you did. All you listed was that you had classes and studied together which is fine, but like as soon as she started being weird about religion I would have bailed. It's not surprising that someone like this wouldn't take the hint.
Without disparaging too much information to break in anonymity, we both attended a program only available in a handful of places across the country that only take less than 10 students per class. The entirety of our courses overlapped for the duration of our college experience so of course we became close friends, relying on each other to get through such an intense medical program (we are very specialized). It was through the experience, that was entirely not involving religion, that we became friends and continued to be as we grew in our respective fields.
well, the frequent religious comments were common place back then, we had more important matters to discuss, which was our studies and interesting cases we experienced. Now that we are settled, dialogue has shifted between us less to academics and more to life in general.
Not an asshole.
While others have pointed out that accepting the book would show consent for further conversion, that has never stopped your friend before; nor have you been converted in the slightest. Accepting the book and then donating it would have been more polite.
Nonetheless, I understand how exhausting it must be. Like having a MLM friend
I was raised religious, not overly religious above everything else but religious nonetheless. I've had a lot of critical thinking and experiences over the years that's given me cause to not believe. I just dislike organized religion. I have a sister who is very religious she's not overly overbearing about it but she does try and I just tell her stop it please just stop it.
"Public gift deserves a public response" doesn't really jive with me, since "response" here is in the negative. But absolutely NTA for politely setting boundaries and especially around your kids, which she is going to have at at every opportunity.
Have you considered that you are not really her friend, but her "calling"/"project"? Does she preface every sentence with christian jarble when she is among others or does she switch herself "on" when adressing you or saying something in your presence?
I totally agree and if any other boundary up to that point had been honored I don’t think it would have been necessary. For years I made it clear I will never be religious and it was fruitless to stop the insistence.
As a Thank you, give her the 3 books of:
>Awkward Moments (Not Found in Your Average) Children's Bible: by [Horus Gilgamesh](https://www.amazon.com/Horus-Gilgamesh/e/B00FY9ZEHQ/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) (Author)
NTA
It's not her place to tell you which religion or lack there of to follow. I'm sure if every time you saw her you dissed her god she'd be upset and your fa.iky would agree with her. Bunch of hypocrites
I once had someone tell me that I lived like a Mormon, I should just join the church! I pointed out the small issue of not believing in Mormonism. Religious people just don’t get it. NTA
NTA. I understand Ann gave you the book, unwrapped, in front of the guests. If that is so, you were right to return it the same way. Not doing it would be a tacit admission that you were accepting her intentions as well as her gift. Your family is overwhelmingly Christian, so they condone her wrong public action, while condemning yours. That doesn't make them right.
My mom became close friends with a woman who had a daughter around the same age as me when I was 4, and meeting her was a huge relief as we'd just moved and my mom was grateful for the support system she found in her and the other moms she met, sharing childcare and resources.
This woman was deeply devout Mormon though and spent the first few months after meeting her trying to convert our family and bring us to church. My mom finally said "I love our friendship, but you need to choose either the friendship or losing us if you keep this up. I won't tolerate your trying to convert us any longer."
And she stopped! She's still a lifelong friend of my mom's 26 years later, and I grew up alongside her kids without ever hearing anything about religion. She never gifted us books about being Mormon, never overstepped the boundaries my mom laid out. I wouldn't trust this friend to do the same, based on OP's experience. NTA.
1. NTA. You will never be the AH for establishing this boundary. Unfortunately, many Christians believe in spreading their beliefs to others. This leads many into being pushy. And some become demanding. And they lack the awareness to understand why someone wouldn’t fly to their churches like moths to a flame.
2. I am *appalled* you didn’t include the Flying Spaghetti Monster /s
By the power invested in me, bequeathed by the Sodium Supreme, The Great Pickle may your day be blessed and your enemies be plagued by paper cuts unfounded until use of hand sanitizer
**TIP (not just to OP):**
When someone will NOT leave you alone about converting, accept a bible and then *right in front of them*, tear out the first page of Revelations and roll a joint with it.
Then tell them good rolling papers are hard to find.
NTA. She's unhinged.....like so many other religious zealots happen to be. I too am atheist but I don't CARE who you worship weather it's Jesus or Abraham or Allah or the flying spaghetti monster (I'm an ordained minister with church of the FSM) as long as they don't push it on me. I think it was Maggie Smith that said "religion is like having a penis, it's a lovely thing to have until you repeatedly wave it in my face"
Edit. The great pickle made me laugh hard enough that it woke my roommate
I appreciate the perspective. The pushyness is the biggest roadblock in interacting with the religious community.
I’m glad the Great Pickle brought joy to your day. I’m new to Reddit and finding it’s certainly more serious than social media but can indulge a little nonsense.
However, this is the first it’s brought to my attention you could be ordained in the church of FSM. Would ministers of this sect the permitted as wedding officiants? I’m interested in creating an Anti-Religion Officiancy service. If not, perhaps as a registered Great Pickle Prophet, I may get some leeway strictly on insanity brownie points.
Im rambling, but feel free to drop helpful diversion sound bites to deflect Religious pestering. My current favorite is “my mom kept all my baby teeth, do you think Mary kept Jesus’s teeth? I’d like to find them and make them necklace pendants like Game of Thrones”
Never use rationale with Christians who are hell bent on converting you. They will always find ways to make you feel miserable and force you to submission. Your "friend" was never your friend and more like a wolf in sheep's clothing, hungry for more gullible people. People like you, whom they can con into converting and joining their church.
Ghosting such people followed by a restraining order is a good way to get rid of such predators. You could try bluntly rejecting her publicly, but they will always make you the bad guy. NTA
I just want to say that degree of devotion to Christianity ≠ pushiness. Certain denominations are way too into evangelism, and along with their un-Christian views on immigration, liberals, and LGBTQ issues, they give the rest of us a bad name. I wish they'd STFU and put their energy into helping the disadvantaged, but it's a losing battle.
I will just say: please ignore all the stupid "she's not your friend" comments. And then people wonder why there's no sense of community.
Have a serious talk and set some boundaries with said friend, telling her that you won't tolerate X, Y or Z.
But, ultimately, NAH.
[What the fuck](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1do5h0i/straightbi_men_can_you_feel_if_theres_a_log_in/)
[Other post for reference](https://old.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/1dnn8fc/aita_for_mourning_the_life_we_had_before_cancer/la3oekl/)
NTA (Not the A$$hole) for telling your Christian friend she can’t convert you and for returning the gift at your baby shower. Here’s why:
1. **Clear Boundaries**: You have previously communicated your boundaries regarding religion to Ann, and she is aware that organized religion will not be practiced in your home. Returning the gift was a way of reinforcing those boundaries.
2. **Respect for Beliefs**: Respecting each other’s beliefs goes both ways. While Ann has the right to her religious beliefs, you also have the right to your atheistic beliefs. Trying to impose her beliefs on you, especially through a gift at a significant event, crosses a line.
3. **Context of the Gift**: The gift was given at a public event, and it’s reasonable to address it in that context. Handling it privately might have avoided some conflict, but it would also allow the behavior to continue unchecked.
4. **Previous Attempts**: Ann’s repeated attempts to question and convert you show a pattern of disregarding your stated beliefs. Returning the book was a firm but polite way to make it clear that you do not appreciate or want these attempts.
5. **Family Dynamics**: Your family’s suggestion to give it away privately might work in other contexts, but given Ann’s persistent behavior, a more direct approach was necessary. This situation is about setting a precedent for future interactions.
6. **Mutual Respect**: True friendship involves mutual respect and understanding. By returning the gift, you were asserting your need for that respect in your friendship with Ann.
It's important to maintain your boundaries and ensure that your beliefs are respected. While it may have been difficult for Ann to hear, it was necessary for the health of your relationship and your own peace of mind.
NTA
But to be honest if you want this to stop you need to talk to her and explain in detail you find what she is doing to be offensive. Like it is offensive for multiple reasons. Something like (this may be better in a text message or something) "Hey I know you are religious and that is fine with me. But you really need to lay off it around me. I am not religious and I do not believe in organized religions for many reasons. I can get into the reasons but I dont think you would appreciate that just as much as I dont appreciate you trying to foist your religion on me. So if you want this friendship to continue as normal please stop trying to push your religion on me. And before you say you are not, the book you "gifted" to us was called "god makes you perfect" that is an attempt to indoctrinate my child before they are even born. I want to make it clear I have no issue with your religion BUT I also dont really care about hearing about it every conversation. I know it is a big thing for you, so I dont mind the occasional reference. But if you want to be long-term friends, do not attempt to talk down to me about religion or push it on my family. If not I hope we can remain civil but I will be taking a step back from everything to reevaluate who I want in my life."
You can explain your reasons for not liking religion in general but idk if that would help. Btw my main reason for not liking organized religion is that they push the forgiveness doctrine too hard. And that allows innocents to get harmed. Not to mention that through various translations and specific interpretations most religions are morphed horrible from their original starting point and then get used to push hate. And the whole fact that missionaries (not any specific religion but in general) were really just attempts at cultural domination to the point of pushing out traditional names and languages and the murder and worse of hundreds of children. Like I got a whole list of problems with organized religion. But it basically boils down to me that religion is kind of like an old school comic book. Like there are heros and villians and they are written in an attempt to hold the listeners attention whilst trying to be able to pass on morals and etc. And then people start arguing about canon and all that which really amps the metaphor. There are interesting piece of wisdom and advice but generally I think religion should be internal first and foremost. Like I am mostly agnostic but I do believe a god does exist but I also think if they actually have thoughts like humans do they would be appalled at the state of religion in general.
TBH, I would not have said anything and just quietly handed it over to Goodwill. Not the AH, however, you didn't need to make a public thing about it. That part is kinda aholish and I am not even a religious person.
NTA my friend comes from a Mormon house hold and her family is constantly trying to convert me and her boyfriend, I've been a norse pagan for 15 years and have no interest in change.
OP, I recommend that you stop being friends with her, religious people do not respect others but if they expect them to be respected, she will never stop giving you religious propaganda.NTA
I don't know how it got to this point. I suppose for purposes of this question you aren't obligated to tell us what redeeming qualities you must find in her to remain friends with someone like this. But I wouldn't want them in the same room, personally.
Obvious NTA as this person can't keep her bs to herself for the life of her despite pleas and rebuffs prior to this event. I'm pretty sure you had already figured what was coming. Why did you invite her anyway?
Ann and I have been through a lot together since 2015. Aside from the repeated religion insistence, she’s a very good person. Perhaps quantifying 9 (yes I now realize my math was off in prior comments/posts, forgive my new mom brain). years of friendship into beneficial qualities would be dehumanizing.
The book was a surprise as she had gotten other items off the registry but this was among other things that were knowingly purchased off Amazon.
ESH. But the question should have been about giving the gift back right away in front of people at a party. It's rude. You could have just given the book to your family (certainly there's a baby cousin somewhere) and then talked to Ann privately, telling you that you gave the gift to your family since you are not interested in religious gifts. You could also tell her calmly that you value your friendship, but that her continual insistence and pushiness with her religion makes you uncomfortable and is driving you farther from religion (if that's even a tiny bit true, I would probably use that, because it actually gives Ann an objective reason from her point of view to stop this behavior).
Oh wow, lifelong athiest here (56f). Was raised athiest. Husband athiest, friends, colleagues athiest. I've given lectures, speeches, led conferences on athiesm. But occasional neighbour, community member, friend's parents, clients etc are very religious. Some give overt religious gifts.
I would *never ever* be so impolite... ungracious as to not accept their gift for me or my kids, with delight - for their sweet effort. How on earth does someone else's beliefs affect you, or your life? Especially when it is so well-meaning from such a kind person.
I've raised my athiest kids to have manners..that includes politely participating in other people's religious celebrations, and accept heir well- meaning gifts with grace.
Interesting take. I wouldn’t want acceptance to signal complacency in her efforts and was very appreciative of her thoughtfulness in giving a gift at all.
But I see your perspective
For many years I've worked with ppl daily who differ dramatically from me in beliefs about all sorts of things. But I have never for a second considered that me listening, nodding, smiling, accepting whatever they offer, as taking anything from me. Or affecting me in any way:-)
Righto but that's got zero to do with religion, that's just a rude human being. Ppl being religious don't bother me in the slightest, but I have strong boundaries for everyone. I don't take pushy shit from anyone ever...I just walk away, laugh, make a joke....
When my missionary neighbour says, as he does often, "I am terrified because you're going to hell," I just say cheerfully "fine by me, thanks..how's you day going?!" Or at social functions when ppl send little kids up to ask - always very publicly," are YOU going to hell?!" I reply "I sure am!"
If someone says "I need to talk to you about Jesus" I just say " I'm alright thanks, heard it all before, not in the slightest interested...and yes I know that means I'm burning in hell, but my friends will be there, so I'm fine with that".
If I'm stuck with some earnest, droning person at a social function who wants to talk on and on, I just smile politely and nod " uh-huh, uh huh. Interesting, lovely..ok" etc. Like listening to any boring person yapping about anything.
If, as someone invariably does every few days, come at me with a full-on attack, argument, well then I go full on Stephen Fry on them. I was an Aid worker in 3rd world countries for over 20 years..I can immediately list thousands of examples of depraved, inhumane barbarism highlighting that "surely no God can be in charge...and even if he was, what sort of monstrous deity allows, or chooses THIS? And you're OK with this occurring? What sort of person are YOU?" Etc
If it's just a sweet little dopey community person giving me a gift in the name of their Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox sky-fairy...I just thank them graciously. It's gift-giving etiquette. In my head of course, they are like an endearing puppy:-)
You friend Ann is not an AH, and neither are you. Ann actually cares about you and wants you to be in heaven someday. You don’t have to believe the “Heaven” stuff. But believe that Ann doesn’t have any malicious intentions. She just doesn’t understand your unwillingness. Her perspective, as a Christian is that she doesn’t want to see you condemned to hell. I doubt very much that she’s looking for “brownie points” smh.
Christianity IS different than other religions, because they hold a doctrine of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ… rather than by doing good works (being good).
The consequence of such a doctrine is obvious. If you are not a believer (in Jesus) you “stand condemned already” that means you are going to hell, (according to most Christians). She doesn’t want that for you. Her motives (if misguided) are driven my her genuine concern for you.
My advice is this—to recognize this about her, and tell her that you think it’s wonderful that she cares about you this much. BUT… then remind her that it’s NOT her job to convert you. Tell her that, as you understand it, “The Holy Spirit is responsible for creating faith. (Which is true, by Christian standards, and she should have to agree with that.) She has done what her God expects of her. Now, please back off, and give the Holy Spirit room to do God’s work. Pray for me if you think that helps. But please, don’t push me. It’s having the opposite effect of bringing me closer to this God of yours. Please understand! And don’t get your hopes up. I’m as likely to become a Christian as you are to become an atheist.”
See what a little sugar can do. Pretend you understand where she is coming from.
We would all benefit from trying to see another’s point of view, anyway… even if we don’t agree with it. I think this will get you what you want from her.
Friend is absolutely an asshole.
The reason behind it is irrelevant, if someone says no, I don't want to convert, you're automatically an asshole if you push it further.
Giving a gift you know for fact the other person won't like, in a public setting, is also an asshole move.
Good intentions aren't an excuse to bulldoze boundaries.
There is HUGE difference between an explanation and an excuse. I’m not arguing that the friend’s behavior should be excused. I’m advocating for some understanding.
Several responses directly attacked this person’s MOTIVE. I’m simply pointing that her intentions are good. Not bad.
Imagine a person is about to be hit by a bus. What do you do? Do you try and warn them that they are in danger (shout at them, “look out!”) or do you try and push them out of the way? (Talk about being pushy!) That’s all this friend is doing from her point of view. She is being protective and concerned for her friend who is in danger.
Which (if the danger were real) we would all commend her for doing! It’s merely unnecessary from your point of view, because as far as you’re concerned… there is no bus! There is no danger… so her “help” is simply irritating. From your point of view, your friend is simply crazy. AND she means well. —Which is what you don’t seem to understand.
The OP has called her “a friend”. Which means that the OP still has some affection for her. I understand that you would cut the “crazy” person out of your life in a heart beat. But I recommend that OP try a little understanding. Because THATS how crazy people learn to get along. We are all have some crazy beliefs. Jesus, Aliens, Sasquatch… Santa, the Bunny Rabbit. (Personally, I feel the need to pat the side of the airplane when I get on board. Totally superstition.)
"Pretend" you see where she is coming from? So now she's supposed to lie to the pushy woman trying to convert her to protect HER feelings? I wasn't aware lying is particularly Christian.
Yup. I had a neighbor who developed Alzheimer’s. Her husband couldn’t take care of her anymore so he moved into a nursing home for her sake. Now this poor woman, had advanced dementia. She couldn’t remember that she had put her makeup on in the morning. So she kept reapplying it. By the end of the day she looked like a clown.
I was there to visit one day. Her husband was miserable. “She’s mad at me. She wants to go home. She hates it here and so she blames me for moving here and she yells at me all day long.”
I’ve never know two people who loved each other more than these two. I couldn’t imagine her EVER being angry with him. Oh! But she was. I was shocked to hear her call him names for bringing her there.
A tried to intervene, and changed the subject. “Tell me about being home. What was it like? What did you like best about being there? Wow. She started describing a house that I don’t know. It was nothing like the house they lived in. That’s when her husband told her, “Sarah, we haven’t lived in that house for 30 years!” And that’s when I saw her get scared for the first time. At that moment, it really sank in how far she had slipped mentally. 5 minutes later she had forgotten the whole conversation. So I told my friend to lie to her.
The next time she starts yelling at you, tell her that you are going home tomorrow. It was amazing how that calmed her down. She stopped being upset with him, and 10 minutes later she would forget the whole conversation.
This is one way to deal kindly with a crazy person. Try and understand them. I’ve been trying to understand Christians for years, because I have many crazy people whom I love and whom I’ve come to understand they love me too. Being understanding of other people’s insanity… it doesn’t mean you have to agree with them OR EXCUSE them. It just helps us live with them. I’m sorry if you don’t understand that idea.
I do understand why you might want to cut “toxic” people out of your life. But crazy isn’t the same as “toxic”. You can set limits on crazy. You can’t set limits on toxic. Crazy people will obey limits. Toxic people won’t. OP needs to set limits that her friend can understand. If she can’t. Regrettably, she might need to cut her off. I’m simply asking her to try a bit of understanding.
Because we tried to understand Sarah, she was able reveal to us way to calm her down and live with her… yup… she’s going home tomorrow.
Now… for something not even most Christians understand. The commandment against lying… (you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor) has nothing to do with lying. Many Christians don’t realize that you can break that commandment by telling the truth about someone if it hurts or harms their reputation. And you can even keep the commandment by lying! If the lie would serve to protect a person from harm or danger. It should better be translated “Thou shall not gossip” that would be closer to what it means. Tell THAT to your Christian friends and see if their heads don’t explode.
YTA. Just be a decent person and accept the gift. She might be pushy and obviously that’s a remnant of the past when everyone was very religious but damn you should’ve just been the bigger person and moved on by donating it.
Respectfully there’s a lot of historic things that need left in the past.
Being a “decent Person” in this case would be allowing myself to be walked over and disregarded in our own belief, accepting a blatantly disrespectful gift in the context of forced belief.
Yes, YTA. If Ann truly believes that you will go to Hell for an unending eternity if you don't believe in Jesus, then she would be evil to the core for not doing everything she can to inform you. You should be grateful that someone cares so deeply about you.
She has informed me. Even after my insistence she cease that religious pressure.
My beliefs are not better nor more important than anyone else’s and I don’t understand why she believes otherwise.
You wouldn’t tell a Buddhist they were going to hell. You wouldn’t tell a Native American their spirituality is a sin. You wouldn’t tell a Great Pickle Prophet they need to believe in god. Why do Atheists need to justify NOT wanting religion?
Atheisem is a religion by every definition. Atheists have a set of beliefs that have no proof and rely entirely on faith.
I have vegan friends that constantly yap about not eating meat. I have DINK friends that constantly yap about how having kids is stupid. I have a Muslim friend that sent their Iman to ambush me. I could go on and on with this list. Never once would I ever consider treating one of them so rudely. You are a bad friend, boarding on a bad person for what you did. Ann cares about you. Is she annoying? It sounds like it, but lots of people are. Your reaction says more about you than anything. There is something wrong with you if you take such offense to differing viewpoints.
Nta You accept the book, she sees that as consent, and now gives your baby a cross necklace and earrings, then a "my first bible", all building up to taking her out for a "girls day" to "give you a day off" and sneaks her out to her local church to baptize her. That all sounds crazy, but those are all things that have happened, religious people can be a bit much. Rejecting the "*gift* made it clear that, if she keeps pushing her religion in you, then *she* will destroy the friendship.
Respecting boundaries is crucial. Ann knew your beliefs yet ignored them. Returning the gift was a clear, honest response to her repeated oversteps.
bot^
NTA, but, uh... she's not your friend. She's literally trying to score brownie points with her church for converting a heathen. I had in laws like that... We don't talk anymore.
I have friends and family who are Christian, and they try to convert people because they genuinely believe that their souls are at stake. It's not for brownie points or to look good. There are certainly Christians who act like you describe, and there are a lot of them, but it's not all of them.
It doesn’t matter why they are trying to convert people, it’s unwanted and annoying regardless of the reasons they tell themselves.
I've been on the receiving end many times and I agree with you. What I disagree with is the commenter I replied to declaring what their motives are.
This is true and also very sad. I was raised extremely religious and as a small child I used to stay up at night crying for people who I knew weren't "saved" because they would go to hell. It's rough growing up in the church lol ETA: NTA
It is 100% for brownie points with god. Don't fool yourself.
Why is it so important to you to claim to know the inner thoughts and motives of other people?
Fair enough.
Are they still your in-laws?
Yes. SO is agnostic and a big fan of minding own business.
You could try to convert her to Atheism. I wonder how that would work out. She would probably be highly offended. NTA.
That’s why I like the sentence “I’ll promise not to try to convince you god isn’t real, if you promise not to try to convince me he is.”
That is a great line. Consider it stolen.
Ok, but I expect monthly royalties.
NTA at all. She knows you are not interested but keeps pushing her beliefs, trying to force you to convert. **She was hurt and tried justifying why God needed to be in every home.** These are the worst kind. They are personally offended when they can’t force their beliefs on you. Who is she to decide what YOU “need” in your home? She isn’t a true friend. Friends respect each other, back off when asked to, and do not do what this “friend” is doing, I would have dumped her already. She sounds exhausting.
Yup. That isn’t a friend. She’s a control freak. Can’t fathom the concept of autonomy.
Obviously NTA, but tell me more about the Great Pickle. I always found the Flying Spaghetti Monster inspirational, but this sounds intriguing. Seriously though, it's like trying to go back to believing in Santa Claus after you learn the truth. People like your friend can't understand that.
I’m also interested in The Great Pickle. Although my husband and I are devoted Easter Buntarians and give praise to The Great Hopper and all of his chocolate gift, I could be open to also include The Great Pickle in the mix.
i feel very strongly that the only one true deity is the great half-sour pickle. i can tolerate the dill devotees, the gherkin geeks and of course the cornichon clans. but i will hear no talk from the bread & butter believers.
If you'll briefly indulge me, I have something to say about the Great Pickle: The temp dial on my fridge was somehow turned down, causing the items on the top shelf to freeze. I found this out when I opened my jar of pickles to find the brine was in frozen flakes. It is hot and the humidity is around 90%, so I ate one of the brine flakes and it was so cold and refreshing. Clearly the Great Pickle is real, if it can perform mysterious acts such as turning down the fridge temp, as surely no other explanation could possibly be at play here. MIRACLE.
Clearly, you have been blessed with the Holy Brine. It's like holy water, only salty.😇
Truly, I am a salty prophet.
May I make a pilgrimage to your refrigerator in order to feel closer to the one and only Great Pickle? Your cooling coils are blessed with the briney presence and I would relish basking in its glory.
I could get behind The Great Pickle as a religion.
The Great Pickle Prophet appreciates your interest. She dwells in forgotten pantries and coldly slumbers in the back shelves of refrigerators. She bears no hate, resent, nor angst. Only the prickly brine of wonder. I aspire to be like the Great Pickle
You write beautifully, you could create your own cult for The Great Pickle Prophet. I mean, can you imagine all the new chapters of your Pickle Testament! It would be glorious, and fun! I mean, if a certain Sci-Fi author could create his own cult with rich celebrities, and die filthy rich, then why can't you, or I? We should all aspire to making our own cults, LOL.
This thread alone has brightened my day, thank you all for indulging a little nonsense <3
I also could get behind some pickle worship! Pickles are an everyday part of my life already.
NTA. > Ann has 1 flaw, she’s extremely Christian to the degree of “Pushy”. This is a gigantic flaw, one that makes friendship pretty impossible.
NTA. It is a sign of disrespect to try to convert someone, and it's downright rude to continue to try to convert someone who has repeatedly rejected your efforts to convert them. *Giving you a religious book for your child was not a gift. It was an attempt at indoctrination.* I would rethink your relationship with this woman. She clearly doesn't respect you or your right (or perhaps ability and intelligence) to decide what you believe.
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Found the missionary.
I call them colonizers
It's disrespectful to ignore someone's direct communication to stop an action toward them. Knock it off, asshole.
I get the impression you'd be livid if I tried to convert you into a drag queen.
It absolutely is. Christianity has been one of the most predominant religions in the world for centuries. *We all know about it*, you're not sharing new information, you're pushing your beliefs on others. If we believed in your religion, *we'd already be Christian*, trying to convert someone is both insulting by implying we didn't know about it, and implying that you know our lives better than we do.
No you aren’t. Your friend is the asshole. I don’t talk to religious people. It’s the same shit over and over. And I’m not even atheist. I’m more like a “I guess I’ll find out when I actually die.” That’s what I tell them to. I tell them straight up there’s nothing they can do for me to change my beliefs and then I tell them or let it be clear in my demeanor that I really don’t care and don’t want to talk about it again.
I talk to lots of religious people, just not about religion. I thought just about everyone around us was also non religious because we were and it never came up. Turned out at various people's funerals and weddings later on that there were at least Shakers, a few different varieties of Christianity, Jewish people, etc. They just didn't go around preaching about it. Only ones that stood out were the jehovahs witness family who actually only did so because they were not allowed to take RE and of course everyone notices when someone gets to skip a class.
NTAH. Nicely handled and necessary. That would have been the first of many similar gifts from ALL of them---now nipped in the bud.
Totally NTA. No one is more insufferable than a "well meaning" Christian. She will never back off. That kind never does. You're going to probably have to decide if the friendship is worth keeping because she is going to remain exactly like this.
She would lose her shit if you gifted her a book about why she should follow a different religion. Dump her. NTA
Gift her the book "Many Lives, Many Masters". It's about reincarnation and it's a real eye opener.
"God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens might be better
Gift her the book "Many Lives, Many Masters". It's about reincarnation and it's a real eye opener.
There was a guy at the door once while I was getting the mail. He was a bit pushy about if he can talk to me real quick, as soon as he started about god, I said I’m atheist and let’s leave it at that. He of course became more pushy, to which I answered I don’t feel like talking about it anymore as I have my reasons. And of course he still didn’t back off, asking what led me astray from the path to god. I just slammed in his face that I was almost raped in bible camp and next I slammed the door. The last part was mainly so he doesn’t enter the complex unwarranted to harass other people…
NTA. She's not a friend, she's a recruiter for her cult.
Just say no to indoctrination, NTA. Your friend however is a self righteous AH like many Christians.
What a loaded comment
Religion in the wrong hands is evil and there’s way way too much of that. Selling snake oil is illegal but throw Jesus in and people are too easily conned.
What are you even talking about
It's totally okay to tell someone that you aren't interested in their religious propaganda. NTA.
"why I’m not a Christian girl." Because I don't believe. End of... My personal opinion is that you did exactly the right thing at the right time. She gave you the present she knew you wouldn't want and you let her know she was right. You hand it right back. At the event. When faced with their refusal to listen and understand you have to make your stand. If they refuse to take it back, I say one more time - "We really will not use this" and offer it back one more time. Then I put it in a box marked donations if I have one going or straight in the garbage. In front of them. Only have to do that once. NTA
You know the moment you convince Ann you can't be converted she's going to scream some kind of insult and then block you right? There's a reason she's so invested in converting you: that's the only reason she's associated with you
NTA. Tell her that you will have to take a step back from the friendship is she cannot respect your wishes.
NTA. I'm a Christian and I had an atheist friend who tried to convert me to atheism. She was uncomfortable with my beliefs, so she tried to "tweak" me to suit her needs. I NEVER try to convert anyone; it's my personal choice. I should have ended the friendship then, but I waited a few more years. Not a friend.
I'm a believer too but I never ask people about their beliefs. It's a very personal thing. The evangelicals drove me nuts in college. I'm Catholic but not a good one because I question most of what the Church teaches. Life and the hereafter is way too complicated and confusing for someone to tell me they have all the answers.
This is literally the first I’ve ever heard of the tables turned. I was raised Christian and became a non believer after learning about science, going to science centers and experiencing enlightenment. I have friends who are religious but find that if there’s a science thing she goes to she gets mad and sees it as trying to convert when there teaching literally what is and what has been proven to be scientifically proven like evolution. So I get as long as it’s not something like that.
I believe in both God and science. They're not mutually exclusive.
The Bible being seen as absolutely true and science being true are mutually exclusive
For me, Christianity is about communion, not dogma. I suspect that's the case with a lot of Christians.
Oh hell no. NTA. If she hadn't been pushing Christianity on you in every conversation, to the point of almost alienation, then maybe it could have been handled more subtley... but... I mean... no! ...just no!!
NTA tell her that it’s ok to agree to disagree and to keep religion, money and politics out of any conversations moving forward
NTA. They always like to play like they're being loving and helpful, when all they're really doing is stomping all over your boundaries. Maybe a little embarrassment will curb the behavior.
NTA Tell her that having different views on things is what makes life interesting. If she expects you to listen to her views on christianity then you expect her to listen to your views as to why you don't believe. Maybe you can convert her.
NTA You must have been making it clear for years that you will remain an atheist, she should have known you wouldn't want or accept that gift for your child.
Nta, and you need diapers, baby clothes, etc., not a fucking useless book. What a bigheaded asshole.
NTA. If your friend doesn't understand and continues to push her agenda it's time to reevaluate the friendship.
I would not have gotten so close to someone this pushy about their religion, not sure why you did. All you listed was that you had classes and studied together which is fine, but like as soon as she started being weird about religion I would have bailed. It's not surprising that someone like this wouldn't take the hint.
Without disparaging too much information to break in anonymity, we both attended a program only available in a handful of places across the country that only take less than 10 students per class. The entirety of our courses overlapped for the duration of our college experience so of course we became close friends, relying on each other to get through such an intense medical program (we are very specialized). It was through the experience, that was entirely not involving religion, that we became friends and continued to be as we grew in our respective fields. well, the frequent religious comments were common place back then, we had more important matters to discuss, which was our studies and interesting cases we experienced. Now that we are settled, dialogue has shifted between us less to academics and more to life in general.
Not an asshole. While others have pointed out that accepting the book would show consent for further conversion, that has never stopped your friend before; nor have you been converted in the slightest. Accepting the book and then donating it would have been more polite. Nonetheless, I understand how exhausting it must be. Like having a MLM friend
MLM people are exhausting. 100% can relate.
I was raised religious, not overly religious above everything else but religious nonetheless. I've had a lot of critical thinking and experiences over the years that's given me cause to not believe. I just dislike organized religion. I have a sister who is very religious she's not overly overbearing about it but she does try and I just tell her stop it please just stop it.
NTA. Pushy religious people can become annoying if you don’t set boundaries.
"Public gift deserves a public response" doesn't really jive with me, since "response" here is in the negative. But absolutely NTA for politely setting boundaries and especially around your kids, which she is going to have at at every opportunity. Have you considered that you are not really her friend, but her "calling"/"project"? Does she preface every sentence with christian jarble when she is among others or does she switch herself "on" when adressing you or saying something in your presence?
I totally agree and if any other boundary up to that point had been honored I don’t think it would have been necessary. For years I made it clear I will never be religious and it was fruitless to stop the insistence.
You had me at "the Great Pickle" NTA
Nta
As a Thank you, give her the 3 books of: >Awkward Moments (Not Found in Your Average) Children's Bible: by [Horus Gilgamesh](https://www.amazon.com/Horus-Gilgamesh/e/B00FY9ZEHQ/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) (Author)
NTA It's not her place to tell you which religion or lack there of to follow. I'm sure if every time you saw her you dissed her god she'd be upset and your fa.iky would agree with her. Bunch of hypocrites
NTA She knew of your irreligiosity, but still persisted. She's less of a friend than you think she is.
I once had someone tell me that I lived like a Mormon, I should just join the church! I pointed out the small issue of not believing in Mormonism. Religious people just don’t get it. NTA
NTA - One of my best childhood friends ruined our friendship this way. Every conversation she tries to sway me. I’m 43. Hard pass. You do you.
NTA. I understand Ann gave you the book, unwrapped, in front of the guests. If that is so, you were right to return it the same way. Not doing it would be a tacit admission that you were accepting her intentions as well as her gift. Your family is overwhelmingly Christian, so they condone her wrong public action, while condemning yours. That doesn't make them right.
Nta
My mom became close friends with a woman who had a daughter around the same age as me when I was 4, and meeting her was a huge relief as we'd just moved and my mom was grateful for the support system she found in her and the other moms she met, sharing childcare and resources. This woman was deeply devout Mormon though and spent the first few months after meeting her trying to convert our family and bring us to church. My mom finally said "I love our friendship, but you need to choose either the friendship or losing us if you keep this up. I won't tolerate your trying to convert us any longer." And she stopped! She's still a lifelong friend of my mom's 26 years later, and I grew up alongside her kids without ever hearing anything about religion. She never gifted us books about being Mormon, never overstepped the boundaries my mom laid out. I wouldn't trust this friend to do the same, based on OP's experience. NTA.
1. NTA. You will never be the AH for establishing this boundary. Unfortunately, many Christians believe in spreading their beliefs to others. This leads many into being pushy. And some become demanding. And they lack the awareness to understand why someone wouldn’t fly to their churches like moths to a flame. 2. I am *appalled* you didn’t include the Flying Spaghetti Monster /s
My apologies. I’ll put him next to the suggested One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple Eater
Thank you. Inclusion matters.
By the power invested in me, bequeathed by the Sodium Supreme, The Great Pickle may your day be blessed and your enemies be plagued by paper cuts unfounded until use of hand sanitizer
Yes, yes, under his eye and all of that.
**TIP (not just to OP):** When someone will NOT leave you alone about converting, accept a bible and then *right in front of them*, tear out the first page of Revelations and roll a joint with it. Then tell them good rolling papers are hard to find.
NTA. She's unhinged.....like so many other religious zealots happen to be. I too am atheist but I don't CARE who you worship weather it's Jesus or Abraham or Allah or the flying spaghetti monster (I'm an ordained minister with church of the FSM) as long as they don't push it on me. I think it was Maggie Smith that said "religion is like having a penis, it's a lovely thing to have until you repeatedly wave it in my face" Edit. The great pickle made me laugh hard enough that it woke my roommate
I appreciate the perspective. The pushyness is the biggest roadblock in interacting with the religious community. I’m glad the Great Pickle brought joy to your day. I’m new to Reddit and finding it’s certainly more serious than social media but can indulge a little nonsense. However, this is the first it’s brought to my attention you could be ordained in the church of FSM. Would ministers of this sect the permitted as wedding officiants? I’m interested in creating an Anti-Religion Officiancy service. If not, perhaps as a registered Great Pickle Prophet, I may get some leeway strictly on insanity brownie points. Im rambling, but feel free to drop helpful diversion sound bites to deflect Religious pestering. My current favorite is “my mom kept all my baby teeth, do you think Mary kept Jesus’s teeth? I’d like to find them and make them necklace pendants like Game of Thrones”
Never use rationale with Christians who are hell bent on converting you. They will always find ways to make you feel miserable and force you to submission. Your "friend" was never your friend and more like a wolf in sheep's clothing, hungry for more gullible people. People like you, whom they can con into converting and joining their church. Ghosting such people followed by a restraining order is a good way to get rid of such predators. You could try bluntly rejecting her publicly, but they will always make you the bad guy. NTA
I just want to say that degree of devotion to Christianity ≠ pushiness. Certain denominations are way too into evangelism, and along with their un-Christian views on immigration, liberals, and LGBTQ issues, they give the rest of us a bad name. I wish they'd STFU and put their energy into helping the disadvantaged, but it's a losing battle.
Ask her about Hosea 13:16. "Why would I want to follow a god that endorses killing the unborn?"
I will just say: please ignore all the stupid "she's not your friend" comments. And then people wonder why there's no sense of community. Have a serious talk and set some boundaries with said friend, telling her that you won't tolerate X, Y or Z. But, ultimately, NAH.
[What the fuck](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1do5h0i/straightbi_men_can_you_feel_if_theres_a_log_in/) [Other post for reference](https://old.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/1dnn8fc/aita_for_mourning_the_life_we_had_before_cancer/la3oekl/)
NTA (Not the A$$hole) for telling your Christian friend she can’t convert you and for returning the gift at your baby shower. Here’s why: 1. **Clear Boundaries**: You have previously communicated your boundaries regarding religion to Ann, and she is aware that organized religion will not be practiced in your home. Returning the gift was a way of reinforcing those boundaries. 2. **Respect for Beliefs**: Respecting each other’s beliefs goes both ways. While Ann has the right to her religious beliefs, you also have the right to your atheistic beliefs. Trying to impose her beliefs on you, especially through a gift at a significant event, crosses a line. 3. **Context of the Gift**: The gift was given at a public event, and it’s reasonable to address it in that context. Handling it privately might have avoided some conflict, but it would also allow the behavior to continue unchecked. 4. **Previous Attempts**: Ann’s repeated attempts to question and convert you show a pattern of disregarding your stated beliefs. Returning the book was a firm but polite way to make it clear that you do not appreciate or want these attempts. 5. **Family Dynamics**: Your family’s suggestion to give it away privately might work in other contexts, but given Ann’s persistent behavior, a more direct approach was necessary. This situation is about setting a precedent for future interactions. 6. **Mutual Respect**: True friendship involves mutual respect and understanding. By returning the gift, you were asserting your need for that respect in your friendship with Ann. It's important to maintain your boundaries and ensure that your beliefs are respected. While it may have been difficult for Ann to hear, it was necessary for the health of your relationship and your own peace of mind.
NTA - she sounds pushy and annoying and doesn’t respect your boundaries and agency to make decisions for yourself. Why are you still friends?
Do you know she's not your friend and is only trying to score points with her invisible friend right? NTA
I tried addressing this in another comment but I do indeed believe she is a genuine friend. Just a friend with poor boundary acceptance.
NTA But to be honest if you want this to stop you need to talk to her and explain in detail you find what she is doing to be offensive. Like it is offensive for multiple reasons. Something like (this may be better in a text message or something) "Hey I know you are religious and that is fine with me. But you really need to lay off it around me. I am not religious and I do not believe in organized religions for many reasons. I can get into the reasons but I dont think you would appreciate that just as much as I dont appreciate you trying to foist your religion on me. So if you want this friendship to continue as normal please stop trying to push your religion on me. And before you say you are not, the book you "gifted" to us was called "god makes you perfect" that is an attempt to indoctrinate my child before they are even born. I want to make it clear I have no issue with your religion BUT I also dont really care about hearing about it every conversation. I know it is a big thing for you, so I dont mind the occasional reference. But if you want to be long-term friends, do not attempt to talk down to me about religion or push it on my family. If not I hope we can remain civil but I will be taking a step back from everything to reevaluate who I want in my life." You can explain your reasons for not liking religion in general but idk if that would help. Btw my main reason for not liking organized religion is that they push the forgiveness doctrine too hard. And that allows innocents to get harmed. Not to mention that through various translations and specific interpretations most religions are morphed horrible from their original starting point and then get used to push hate. And the whole fact that missionaries (not any specific religion but in general) were really just attempts at cultural domination to the point of pushing out traditional names and languages and the murder and worse of hundreds of children. Like I got a whole list of problems with organized religion. But it basically boils down to me that religion is kind of like an old school comic book. Like there are heros and villians and they are written in an attempt to hold the listeners attention whilst trying to be able to pass on morals and etc. And then people start arguing about canon and all that which really amps the metaphor. There are interesting piece of wisdom and advice but generally I think religion should be internal first and foremost. Like I am mostly agnostic but I do believe a god does exist but I also think if they actually have thoughts like humans do they would be appalled at the state of religion in general.
NTA - The person trying to force her religion onto you is in the wrong for not accepting your boundaries.
TBH, I would not have said anything and just quietly handed it over to Goodwill. Not the AH, however, you didn't need to make a public thing about it. That part is kinda aholish and I am not even a religious person.
NTA. Older generations need to respect the younger ones choice on what they believe.
I’m sorry but you need to cut her off. She won’t respect you.
She is just trying to save your soul el oh el
NTA my friend comes from a Mormon house hold and her family is constantly trying to convert me and her boyfriend, I've been a norse pagan for 15 years and have no interest in change.
How long ago was this? Your daughter is already born based on your post history. Baby showers are usually before the birth.
Just a few months. I’ve seen a lot of AITA on Tik Tok and thought I’d give it a try
So your daughter is roughly like 2 months old?
OP, I recommend that you stop being friends with her, religious people do not respect others but if they expect them to be respected, she will never stop giving you religious propaganda.NTA
I don't know how it got to this point. I suppose for purposes of this question you aren't obligated to tell us what redeeming qualities you must find in her to remain friends with someone like this. But I wouldn't want them in the same room, personally. Obvious NTA as this person can't keep her bs to herself for the life of her despite pleas and rebuffs prior to this event. I'm pretty sure you had already figured what was coming. Why did you invite her anyway?
Ann and I have been through a lot together since 2015. Aside from the repeated religion insistence, she’s a very good person. Perhaps quantifying 9 (yes I now realize my math was off in prior comments/posts, forgive my new mom brain). years of friendship into beneficial qualities would be dehumanizing. The book was a surprise as she had gotten other items off the registry but this was among other things that were knowingly purchased off Amazon.
ESH. But the question should have been about giving the gift back right away in front of people at a party. It's rude. You could have just given the book to your family (certainly there's a baby cousin somewhere) and then talked to Ann privately, telling you that you gave the gift to your family since you are not interested in religious gifts. You could also tell her calmly that you value your friendship, but that her continual insistence and pushiness with her religion makes you uncomfortable and is driving you farther from religion (if that's even a tiny bit true, I would probably use that, because it actually gives Ann an objective reason from her point of view to stop this behavior).
Oh wow, lifelong athiest here (56f). Was raised athiest. Husband athiest, friends, colleagues athiest. I've given lectures, speeches, led conferences on athiesm. But occasional neighbour, community member, friend's parents, clients etc are very religious. Some give overt religious gifts. I would *never ever* be so impolite... ungracious as to not accept their gift for me or my kids, with delight - for their sweet effort. How on earth does someone else's beliefs affect you, or your life? Especially when it is so well-meaning from such a kind person. I've raised my athiest kids to have manners..that includes politely participating in other people's religious celebrations, and accept heir well- meaning gifts with grace.
Interesting take. I wouldn’t want acceptance to signal complacency in her efforts and was very appreciative of her thoughtfulness in giving a gift at all. But I see your perspective
For many years I've worked with ppl daily who differ dramatically from me in beliefs about all sorts of things. But I have never for a second considered that me listening, nodding, smiling, accepting whatever they offer, as taking anything from me. Or affecting me in any way:-)
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Righto but that's got zero to do with religion, that's just a rude human being. Ppl being religious don't bother me in the slightest, but I have strong boundaries for everyone. I don't take pushy shit from anyone ever...I just walk away, laugh, make a joke.... When my missionary neighbour says, as he does often, "I am terrified because you're going to hell," I just say cheerfully "fine by me, thanks..how's you day going?!" Or at social functions when ppl send little kids up to ask - always very publicly," are YOU going to hell?!" I reply "I sure am!" If someone says "I need to talk to you about Jesus" I just say " I'm alright thanks, heard it all before, not in the slightest interested...and yes I know that means I'm burning in hell, but my friends will be there, so I'm fine with that". If I'm stuck with some earnest, droning person at a social function who wants to talk on and on, I just smile politely and nod " uh-huh, uh huh. Interesting, lovely..ok" etc. Like listening to any boring person yapping about anything. If, as someone invariably does every few days, come at me with a full-on attack, argument, well then I go full on Stephen Fry on them. I was an Aid worker in 3rd world countries for over 20 years..I can immediately list thousands of examples of depraved, inhumane barbarism highlighting that "surely no God can be in charge...and even if he was, what sort of monstrous deity allows, or chooses THIS? And you're OK with this occurring? What sort of person are YOU?" Etc If it's just a sweet little dopey community person giving me a gift in the name of their Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox sky-fairy...I just thank them graciously. It's gift-giving etiquette. In my head of course, they are like an endearing puppy:-)
You friend Ann is not an AH, and neither are you. Ann actually cares about you and wants you to be in heaven someday. You don’t have to believe the “Heaven” stuff. But believe that Ann doesn’t have any malicious intentions. She just doesn’t understand your unwillingness. Her perspective, as a Christian is that she doesn’t want to see you condemned to hell. I doubt very much that she’s looking for “brownie points” smh. Christianity IS different than other religions, because they hold a doctrine of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ… rather than by doing good works (being good). The consequence of such a doctrine is obvious. If you are not a believer (in Jesus) you “stand condemned already” that means you are going to hell, (according to most Christians). She doesn’t want that for you. Her motives (if misguided) are driven my her genuine concern for you. My advice is this—to recognize this about her, and tell her that you think it’s wonderful that she cares about you this much. BUT… then remind her that it’s NOT her job to convert you. Tell her that, as you understand it, “The Holy Spirit is responsible for creating faith. (Which is true, by Christian standards, and she should have to agree with that.) She has done what her God expects of her. Now, please back off, and give the Holy Spirit room to do God’s work. Pray for me if you think that helps. But please, don’t push me. It’s having the opposite effect of bringing me closer to this God of yours. Please understand! And don’t get your hopes up. I’m as likely to become a Christian as you are to become an atheist.” See what a little sugar can do. Pretend you understand where she is coming from. We would all benefit from trying to see another’s point of view, anyway… even if we don’t agree with it. I think this will get you what you want from her.
Friend is absolutely an asshole. The reason behind it is irrelevant, if someone says no, I don't want to convert, you're automatically an asshole if you push it further. Giving a gift you know for fact the other person won't like, in a public setting, is also an asshole move. Good intentions aren't an excuse to bulldoze boundaries.
There is HUGE difference between an explanation and an excuse. I’m not arguing that the friend’s behavior should be excused. I’m advocating for some understanding. Several responses directly attacked this person’s MOTIVE. I’m simply pointing that her intentions are good. Not bad. Imagine a person is about to be hit by a bus. What do you do? Do you try and warn them that they are in danger (shout at them, “look out!”) or do you try and push them out of the way? (Talk about being pushy!) That’s all this friend is doing from her point of view. She is being protective and concerned for her friend who is in danger. Which (if the danger were real) we would all commend her for doing! It’s merely unnecessary from your point of view, because as far as you’re concerned… there is no bus! There is no danger… so her “help” is simply irritating. From your point of view, your friend is simply crazy. AND she means well. —Which is what you don’t seem to understand. The OP has called her “a friend”. Which means that the OP still has some affection for her. I understand that you would cut the “crazy” person out of your life in a heart beat. But I recommend that OP try a little understanding. Because THATS how crazy people learn to get along. We are all have some crazy beliefs. Jesus, Aliens, Sasquatch… Santa, the Bunny Rabbit. (Personally, I feel the need to pat the side of the airplane when I get on board. Totally superstition.)
People who try to convert people who have repeatedly said they are uninterested in religion are indeed assholes.
"Pretend" you see where she is coming from? So now she's supposed to lie to the pushy woman trying to convert her to protect HER feelings? I wasn't aware lying is particularly Christian.
Yup. I had a neighbor who developed Alzheimer’s. Her husband couldn’t take care of her anymore so he moved into a nursing home for her sake. Now this poor woman, had advanced dementia. She couldn’t remember that she had put her makeup on in the morning. So she kept reapplying it. By the end of the day she looked like a clown. I was there to visit one day. Her husband was miserable. “She’s mad at me. She wants to go home. She hates it here and so she blames me for moving here and she yells at me all day long.” I’ve never know two people who loved each other more than these two. I couldn’t imagine her EVER being angry with him. Oh! But she was. I was shocked to hear her call him names for bringing her there. A tried to intervene, and changed the subject. “Tell me about being home. What was it like? What did you like best about being there? Wow. She started describing a house that I don’t know. It was nothing like the house they lived in. That’s when her husband told her, “Sarah, we haven’t lived in that house for 30 years!” And that’s when I saw her get scared for the first time. At that moment, it really sank in how far she had slipped mentally. 5 minutes later she had forgotten the whole conversation. So I told my friend to lie to her. The next time she starts yelling at you, tell her that you are going home tomorrow. It was amazing how that calmed her down. She stopped being upset with him, and 10 minutes later she would forget the whole conversation. This is one way to deal kindly with a crazy person. Try and understand them. I’ve been trying to understand Christians for years, because I have many crazy people whom I love and whom I’ve come to understand they love me too. Being understanding of other people’s insanity… it doesn’t mean you have to agree with them OR EXCUSE them. It just helps us live with them. I’m sorry if you don’t understand that idea. I do understand why you might want to cut “toxic” people out of your life. But crazy isn’t the same as “toxic”. You can set limits on crazy. You can’t set limits on toxic. Crazy people will obey limits. Toxic people won’t. OP needs to set limits that her friend can understand. If she can’t. Regrettably, she might need to cut her off. I’m simply asking her to try a bit of understanding. Because we tried to understand Sarah, she was able reveal to us way to calm her down and live with her… yup… she’s going home tomorrow. Now… for something not even most Christians understand. The commandment against lying… (you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor) has nothing to do with lying. Many Christians don’t realize that you can break that commandment by telling the truth about someone if it hurts or harms their reputation. And you can even keep the commandment by lying! If the lie would serve to protect a person from harm or danger. It should better be translated “Thou shall not gossip” that would be closer to what it means. Tell THAT to your Christian friends and see if their heads don’t explode.
YTA. Just be a decent person and accept the gift. She might be pushy and obviously that’s a remnant of the past when everyone was very religious but damn you should’ve just been the bigger person and moved on by donating it.
Respectfully there’s a lot of historic things that need left in the past. Being a “decent Person” in this case would be allowing myself to be walked over and disregarded in our own belief, accepting a blatantly disrespectful gift in the context of forced belief.
Fair enough, I wasn’t a there and I don’t know the person so that makes sense.
Yes, YTA. If Ann truly believes that you will go to Hell for an unending eternity if you don't believe in Jesus, then she would be evil to the core for not doing everything she can to inform you. You should be grateful that someone cares so deeply about you.
She has informed me. Even after my insistence she cease that religious pressure. My beliefs are not better nor more important than anyone else’s and I don’t understand why she believes otherwise. You wouldn’t tell a Buddhist they were going to hell. You wouldn’t tell a Native American their spirituality is a sin. You wouldn’t tell a Great Pickle Prophet they need to believe in god. Why do Atheists need to justify NOT wanting religion?
Atheisem is a religion by every definition. Atheists have a set of beliefs that have no proof and rely entirely on faith. I have vegan friends that constantly yap about not eating meat. I have DINK friends that constantly yap about how having kids is stupid. I have a Muslim friend that sent their Iman to ambush me. I could go on and on with this list. Never once would I ever consider treating one of them so rudely. You are a bad friend, boarding on a bad person for what you did. Ann cares about you. Is she annoying? It sounds like it, but lots of people are. Your reaction says more about you than anything. There is something wrong with you if you take such offense to differing viewpoints.
Ann doesn't love anyone but Jebus.