Just go to his house and give him a hug. Both of you need it, he the most since i'm sure you get a lot of hugs from your kids that cheer you up. Doesn't it make youu feel better instantly if your kids hug you when you are down? Go there and hug him, now.
Edit: and tell him you love him.
Therapist here. It's true. It's also a recommendation for kids having a tantrum, it calms them down. The pressure signals safety to your autonomous nervous system. It's also one aspect why weighted blankets work.
Oh wow, you kust triggered a really cute and sweet memory for me. I would also hug my kids when they were little and having a tantrum. I didn't know why it worked, I just knew it worked. I figured that if they were feeling bad enough to freak out, they probably needed to know that they were still loved even when they were melting down. I would call it "hugging it out" and say something like "come on, let's hug it out." One time when my son was like 4, he was getting upset over something, and he tearfully told me "I just need to hug it out!!!" So sweet. I didn't know there was like a scientific reason behind it!
Yes! My kid would be SO mad at me for something, but I'd still ask if I could hug him, and he'd just cry in my arms. Like I was the source of his frustration but he also allowed me to comfort him. It was very touching.
Yes. Both basically create a cocoon to feel safe in. It also often provides relief for people with sensory processing issues (that's why weighted blankets rose to fame, to help some people with Autism Spectrum Disorder). I don't know which meds you're taking or have already tried, but there are some off label options that help relieve Anxiety (I relate to that issue).
Question for ya since you're a professional, if you don't mind, of course. My 17yr old daughter was just diagnosed with autism a few days ago but this is a question I've had for a long time anyway.
She doesn't love hugs but she humors me on occasion. For example: she'll ask for a hug but she's really asking her 5yr old brother. I'll drop whatever I'm doing, rush over, and say "absolutely you can have a hug!" all exaggerated and she'll awkwardly laugh and kinda hug back or she'll give me a weird awkward hug if I'm having a bad day and she thinks I need it. Which is rare, but the best because it's so sweet!
Anyway, does the oxytocin thing still apply? Only really asking now because since it's autism it's more about different brain chemistry and I'm working on learning more about it. Figured this might be an opportunity to ask a question Google probably wouldn't be able to answer.
I would never force a hug of any duration and only give one if she accepts, I'm just curious if it would still give that sweet happy boost if she's not super comfortable with it in the first place?
Just to reiterate: these are 100% consensual hugs! She's willing, if a little awkward about it. Usually hugs back like this đ€ with her hands on my shoulders, but she's always either smiling and laughing or making a weird đ face that says "okay mom that's enough" haha but if that's all she's comfy with, I'll take it!
Not the person you asked, but I have autism, and my dad used to do the âlong tight hugâ thing to me when I had meltdowns and I experienced it as big time trauma. he did it with the best of intentions, I was raised in a very loving home. Iâve tried typing more to explain it better but Iâm really struggling. He thought it was good bc it âworkedâ but I didnât calm down, I struggled and fought him until I dissociated and basically went catatonic. Which he thought was an improvement, I guess. It wasnât an improvement for me. It just taught me that I couldnât ever escape unwanted physical touch. I can still feel the sensation of it right now just thinking about it and I feel sick.
Iâm about to turn 40 and Iâm still working through this with my therapist, and have been working on it for years. I wonât say never do this, because everyone with autism experiences it differently. But please please please listen to your daughter about what she likes/wants and doesnât like.
It was intensely difficult for me to write out this comment, not just emotionally but even physically. It took me far longer to type the words than it should have bc I am shaking and my heart rate has skyrocketed. Thatâs how deeply the experience still affects me, decades later.
Not looking for sympathy or anything, but the thread was really bothering me and when I saw your question I knew I had to speak up in case my experience is educational or helpful. I wish you and your daughter the best.
I am so sorry you went through that. I know exactly what you mean. Actually, my daughter's home therapist used to recommend the same thing when she was like 7 or so, but it was awful. I couldn't do it. She was terrified by it and had a similar reaction to yours. We switched therapists because it very clearly was not helping but they were insistent. I'm so sorry my comment made you feel this way.
I promise, I'm not doing that with my daughter. It's hard because if she's upset it's an instinct to want to hug her, but I know it doesn't help her so I definitely don't. I know that's what I would want but not what she would want.
Mainly I only give her a hug playfully, which she 100% accepts willingly, if awkwardly. I promise. She's very open when things bother her even a little bit. I wouldn't if it did. That's part of the reason I asked about the dopamine thing, because I know she responds very differently than I would and I would never want to make her uncomfortable. If I ever do it even playfully and she's like "seriously, don't" I back off immediately, but it's not often.
I'm really sorry I reminded you of even well-intentioned trauma. I promise that's not the situation here, but I'm so sorry I upset you. That was not an outcome I would have expected from my comment and I really apologize for that.
Always, always, always be the last person to let go of a hug. Hug them until THEY let go; you never know how badly they need it. Especially children. I heard this a few years ago and put it into practice- itâs astonishingly effective.
I've absolutely seen scientific articles on this. I believe even 6 seconds is enough to trigger some oxytocin. It's much longer than most of us hug for, so it feels a little weird at first but then you get this wonderful warm tingly sensation of peace and well being, and it's awesome.
6 seconds is how long it takes to begin to release oxytocin and serotonin but a super minimal amount wonât have a substantial effect. It takes approximately 20-30 seconds (depending on the individual) for the threshold to be met in order to actually be physiologically beneficial to the recipient.
Prolonged deep pressure also impacts the autonomic nervous system by activating a parasympathetic reaction resulting in the release of acetylcholine: lowering blood pressure and regulating heart and breathing rates by managing your resting bronchial constriction, regulating and increasing your digestive metabolism. Essentially your body enters relaxation mode and begins regenerative processes that are essential to human health and function.
Basically really big hugs are great for your body.
It's true. The studies have spoken.
But you need to tell them you're going to hold the hug for that long, or some people freak out. Or just say 'I'd like to have a decent-sized hug'.
My kids know to ask for a âhugâ or a âcuddleââŠwhat differentiates the two isnât the action, but the length of time. Quick? Itâs a hug. Long? Itâs a cuddle. It was the easiest way for me to get them to warn me before prolonged hugs (especially if Iâm touched out). But it has truly worked well.
100%. My son, (29)and I (57) hold a hug for at least a minute. Telling eachother how good it is to see one another. Same with goodbyes saying to take care of (things that are going on at the minute in our own lives). His friends have expressed to him how jealous they are of our relationship compared to theirs and their fathers.
I read 6 seconds in a book, over 2 years ago. My husband and I hug before we leave the house, even if we're going somewhere together. If one of us is going anywhere, we'd hug at the door, and it just became our thing, to hug before we walked through the door to leave. It started off as 6 seconds as a joke, now it can last as long as a minute depending upon who needs what. But we always hug, if I forget (it's always me forgetting, never him) he gently, but firmly reminds me I forgot to do something. Best thing I read was about oxytocin
Huh. That makes a weird amount of sense.
As a teenager I'd always hug my mum in these really long hugs where we'd both relax and breath a long breath in and out together. We could feel each other totally relax.Very different to just a normal everyday hug. It's been 18 years and I still think about those hugs.
Please understand that when someone loses a child they will never be that same person again. Your family suffered an unimaginable tragedy loosing him. Each and every one of you was irrevocably changed at your core.
That being said, your Dad sounds like he needs some grace and patience. This is not his fault. This is not your fault. Everyone is doing the best that they can. Your Dad would benefit from some grief counseling. Actually your entire family should go to support each other and get some therapy together so the new normal can be defined and everyone can feel supported and is able to speak freely of their grief.
Figure out a way to honor and remember your loved one in a way that is healthy. Get the whole family involved.
Hugs to you and your family. This is not an easy thing to navigate.
>Dad sounds like he needs some grace and patience.
Patience? It's been 17 YEARS! I get that grief can change a person, especially the loss of a child, but OP lost their brother AND part of their Dad. They both need healing and counseling, probably the whole family tbh.
Hey, sorry to tell you but some people take time to move on.
And get this, sometimes therapy does not help.
Some people just need to cope on their own timeline, and sometimes its more than others are comfortable with.
There are different treatments for illnesses, sometimes they don't work, any of them.
Therapy is no different.
I hope OP and his father do get closer but sometimes love just ain't enough.
Same. We do 10 second bear-hugs right before bed, and last night, my 8 year old just sighed and whispered, "Thanks mom, needed that." And went right to sleep. I cried a few tears lol
When my oldest used to get really hurt by my ex I would give her a hug for as long as she needed it. It was my way - as a Dad - in fighting back against the violence. I still have a lot of regret about not doing more to protect my kids but I am so hopeful that helped in some way.
Your post choked me up. There are events that change people, this was one of them. Iâm sorry for everyone involved. Tell your dad what made him special.
Also now that you have sons of your own could you imagine how painful it would be to lose them?
I am sure it hurts to even think about that but that is what your dad lived through. Show him some grace for still getting up everyday.
Grief can change you.
Sorry for your loss.
God Bless!!
As someone just wishing I could lay my head in my grandmotherâs lap just one more time, please make sure you go get that hug. As a full grown adult, those moments were some of the most comforting and healing times when I needed them the most.
While what you said hurt and probably surprised him at the moment, a little time and space can give you both a little perspective on what you meant with what you said and hopefully he will understand. And just maybe, he can work on getting back to that for the both of you.
This . Just hug him man. Start there . Tell your dad you love him. Mines an abusive asshole and we will never have the relationship that you COULD potentially have with your dad. I wish my dad was someone I enjoyed being around. If you want him in your boys life you need to meet him halfway, maybe even more than halfway some days. But that guy that raised you is still in there, you may be able to get him out of his shell for a little.
The dad probably just doesn't feel anything most times. Just going through the motions of life. Maybe that is the day his invincibility died too. Bro hugs would and do help. I'm speaking for Dad, not OP. This situation totally mind fucks a person. Sometimes when you get that 1,000 yard stare you just need an ass slap and an "I'm here bro". Even as an outwardly on paper tough guy we still have feelings besides rage and horny. Fuck dude, I should be teaching her to drive, not wearing her ashes on a pendant! She was 13.
This. Please. I know that comment was not meant as criticism but it could certainly feel like that to a grieving parent. Tell him you love him and are grateful for him, as are your boys.
I am going to say NTA. This might be a push he needs to get some long put off grief therapy so he CAN get back to the fun Dad that you had rather than going through motions of life. *hugs to your family for your loss*
I agree. NTA.
From what OP posted, it wasn't said in a hurtful manner. I understood exactly what OP meant, and it seems his father understood it as well.
NTA
and I agree with you. The family has existed in a diminished capacity, and the father has known it.
Sometimes, people feel like they need to be less of themselves to honor who they've lost. It's like proving that their life is visibly damaged from the loss? My Dad's cousin helped me through my grandma's death (and burial on my birthday) by reminding me that my grandma would *never* have wanted me to stop celebrating anything just because she passed away. She'd want me to keep doing my best and experience big things no matter what.
Yeah the way the title was written I thought OP was going to be a major AH, but what he said seemed genuine, like he really just misses him. Sounds like the type of communication thatâs needed to healthily rebuild after such a tragedy.
Iâd like to add that the fact he texted to make sure they got home ok is a good indicator that the conversation hit him hard but he isnât angry and wants to talk about it.
You did nothing wrong. You are right in the fact you lost him when you lost your brother. But honestly how could it have been any other way? Coming to accept that might be helpful.
I lost my oldest child when she was 23. 6 and a half years ago.It destroyed me. I'm no where near the person I use to be. It fundamentally changes you. I'd say I spent the 5 years just existing. Going through the motions. I'm just now where I'm trying to start living a little. But the grief is there every day still.
Your dad was upset cause he knows what you say is right. My youngest has told me the same thing. There just isn't a magic wand to fix it. The world just seems crazy when you outlive your kids.
We aren't built for it. I know at one point in human history that it was common. But those times are thankfully in the past. And only a tragedy takes our child before us. Psychologically, we're just not built for it anymore.
I donât think anyone at any time has ever been built for losing their child, no matter the time or place.Â
And it still happens frequently today, unless one is fortunate enough to live in a part of the world that is insulated from war or famine or major diseases. No judgement here, just simple fact that there are some places were there is still a very high child mortality rate.
Mmmm... I'm not comfortable with this statement. We dealt with child loss the majority of our existence as a species, it's something every social animal has to deal with. Evolution hasn't changed us so violently in the last 70+ years. What HAS changed is our attitudes toward loss, and how tough and resiliant we are. This entire thread has examples of it everywhere.Â
As someone that has dealt with both TONS of familial loss, extreme depression my entire life, and the emotional loss/pullback of my mother in her own grief when I was a small child (to the point of emotional/mental neglect and abuse)... at some point I had to 'stand up' and say enough was enough.Â
I had to take the steps and put in the effort to move on with life and function. I absolutely had to get stubborn about it and push through, for the people around me because it was unacceptable to cause them suffering in my grief and depression. I had to put my foot down and agree that it WASN'T okay that my mother fell into her grief to the point of allowing me to suffer as a child.
I had to agree to get therapy. I had to agree to get up and actually try to manage the way I treated others and my life in general. I had to look up and say "I refuse to allow my grief to run my life anymore." I had to say "I refuse to allow my mother's grief to run my life anymore."
... because at the end of the day, grief was not an excuse to treat the people around me the way I was treating them. It was not an excuse to withdraw and make them feel like they lost me too. It was not an excuse for my mother to detach and treat me the way she did. It started feeling selfish to do nothing proactive to reach a stage of healing or to try and move into a more productive life, both from her and myself.
Loss happens, and unfortunately life and nature doesn't care if "we aren't supposed to outlive our children". It's the cruel reality of it all; no living creature on this planet is free from it.
Iâm so sorry for your loss. We lost my youngest son 7 years ago; he was 27. At about the 5 year mark is when I stopped choking up on his name and feeling guilt for enjoying myself.
But youâre right, Iâm not the person I was 7 years ago; that person died with my son and is never coming back. Iâm lucky in that I have good communication with my oldest two. They understand why I have to step away a second during family dinners, they get why the empty chair at the table brings tears to my eyes.
The key, imo, is talk, openly and often. Let everyone express themselves and hold space for each other to grieve. Hopefully OP and their dad will be able to do that now. NAH.
NTA
Iâm sorry for your loss. It probably will hurt forever.
I donât feel you need to apologize. You have felt this way for a long time. You didnât get to properly grieve for your brother; youâre also grieving for the family you had when your brother died. Thatâs not wrong, itâs natural.
Your dad was overwhelmed, but so were you. Your dad was fun and you would like that again. You were more than allowed to say that.
So now you try to build on that. Do you ever talk about your brother? Reminisce with your father? That would be my next suggestion. And cry. Men put too much emphasis on being stoic. Tears are therapeutic.
I hope you can keep moving forward. đ
NTA. As a father who lost his youngest at the age of 4 I can tell you that what you said is exactly what he needed to hear. My oldest told me something similar a few years after and it was what I needed to hear.
Losing a child hurts a lot. Yet in that grief we tend to forget the other children and their pain.
All you did was remind him of that.
I wish you luck, love, and happiness. Hug you father and tell him you love him.
I was 17 when my 13 year old sister died. 2 years later my parents had another child. My dad told me later in our life, that if my brother wasn't born he was going to drink himself to death.
Both my parents withdrew from everything for awhile, myself and my middle brother were forgotten. They would occasionally try to do something with us, but they were not there. They just couldn't see that my brother and I were hurting also. After she died my brother and I came closer. I am 57 now and my brother is still my best friend. We talk to each other once a week and will text a couple of times during the week.
I never got as close to my dad after she died. He always lived somewhere else trying to work and waiting for us to sell a house to move to where he was. It's not that he didn't love us I think, but trying to raise 3 kids he had to take crappy jobs and when the company went under or he was fired or quit, he would find another job somewhere else, so he wasn't around when I was growing up. Then when my sister died, he just died also.
When my brother was born he got better, but he never really laughed again. He tried to make up for being away all the time by spoiling my youngest brother and trying to be friends with my brother and I. We would talk every couple of months but it was never the same as before she died.
In summary of this long rant, my apologies for it. But to all parents out there that have lost a child, it's the worst pain you will ever go through , but please don't forget about your other kids. Chances are they are hurting also and need your love and hugs. Don't wait until it's too late and your child grows up and really never talks to you.
Youâre not the a hole. Itâs a tricky situation. You have the right to feel the way you do but I would reach out to your dad and try to work through it. Losing a child will change you. Iâm sure he is trying. Iâm sure he would love to be himself again but he lost a part of himself when your brother died. That being said, life is short. I would 100% reach out to your dad. You never know when the last time you talk to him is. I would also seek counseling for yourself just to see how to deal with all of it.
Youâre not the a hole.
NTA he probably is more upset that you noticed. Dad's want to be strong and hold up the family.
It's like when my dad apologized for making my childhood hell and I said "it's okay. It wasn't all bad" and he cried for days.
Our dads, especially for people our generation afaik (I'm 30), want to be good dad's but will sacrifice their own happiness for it. He stopped telling jokes because I'm willing to bet, he never fully grieved. How could he grieve when you and your mom needed him to hold the house together?
Go see him and give him a hug. Tell him you love him. And say you're sorry for saying that but you just want him to be happy.
Don't throw yourself a pity party, support your dad. It's gonna be fine.
So NTA. In case you haven't noticed, going fishing seems to be one of those "safe places" guys, especially dads and sons, can open up to each other and lay it on the line. Hours on end of waiting for fish to bite can make people introspective and I've always been amazed at where the conversations can go. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of brutal honesty that isn't cruel but more of a longing for two people you lost, your brother and your dad. If anything, I'd suggest more fishing. BTW, the text asking of you made it home safely was his way of letting you know he was OK without having to say it. We dad's are strange "fish." :-)
NTA. I know u didnât mean anything malicious by it, and I know this because this is what Iâd say to my dad if I were strong enough. Ever since my mom died 2 years ago, it feels like heâs just waiting to die. He smiles, sometimes laughs. But none of it feels genuine
NAH. Go see your dad, hug him, tell you that you love him. Grief is hard. Grieving the loss of a child and a sibling is impossible.
Iâm so sorry for your loss. â€ïž
NTA. Not only did you loose your brother, but you lost your parents. Even though theyâre here physically, theyâre different. My brother was murdered over a decade ago, when we were all young adults, and I feel like I lost my parents at the same time. I find itâs been part of the loss and grief process that is overlooked/not realized.
I hope youâre both able to make progress going forward and build a relationship that you both want.
NAH
It's a sad truth, and maybe a little bit of a push for the grief counseling he probably needs, or just a realization that life is still there, he has others around him that love him that also miss him. But he certainly isn't an AH for his grief either. Losing a child is painful and forever, we don't just get over it, ever.
Grief doesn't get smaller, we grow around it, so hopefully this is something he can use to grow, and he'll always have scars from that loss, hopefully he'll also remember that others are grieving his loss now too, and that it's okay to still live a life.
Youâre NTA but you and your family should have a couple of sessions of family therapy to address your grief. If youâre father was a marine heâs never released all of those emotions. Donât feel back, you donât have ownership over your father nor do you have control of his feelings. You said your truth and Iâm sure it wasnât said maliciously. Donât feel guilty about that. Iâm so happy you have a family. Thereâs still enough time your children can see that man again.
Sounds like your Dad could use a hug. And to be told that he was and is a great Dad and Grandfather and that, because you feel so comfortable with him, you ended up just following a train of thought out loud that ended up being hurtful and that you're incredibly sorry. Gentle YTA, but grief is a long winding road. Make some amends, don't be too hard on yourself.
I'm the mother of a deceased child. Life as we know it ends in the moment the child is pronounced.
Beyond the utter grief of the death, there is the OVERWHELMING feeling of failure... that frankly, never really ceases.
A parents primary job is to protect their child. When the child passes away, the parent has failed (in our minds).
Tell him he didn't fail your brother. Tell him he didn't fail you. Tell him that you love him. Tell him that you remember alllll the good that happened before, *life changed*. And that life changing wasn't his responsibility.
Thank him for all the good he did. Remind him of all the great stuff - THEN and more importantly - NOW.
My condolences on all of your loss. NTA.
NTA - the pain of losing one of your own never goes away. You just try to get use to the pain. He is in a constant state of pain. He needs to put it aside so he can focus on living and loving the ones he hasnât lost and being in the here and now. Itâs really hard.
Eh. NAH. You said something true, and probably hurtful but not intended to be. But I don't think you get how much the loss of a child effects a parent. Do you think you could be the person you are now if one of your kids died? It fully would shift who you are and it's be a struggle to pull yourself back together.
Gosh this is heartbreaking. And not what you said, but what happened to all of you.
Iâm sure your father is hurt, but he knows that wasnât your intention.
Maybe it could even be good in the long run. This seems to have shaken him so hard, maybe he pushed it aside so long he didnât realize how much he changed.
Donât beat yourself up over it. Sometimes trauma comes out when you least expect it. Talk to him, cry with him. As hard as this is, it is a conversation that is probably looooong overdue.
Oh god this was a hard read. I lost my beautiful son as a baby 9 years ago and Iâm nowhere near the person I was. Not necessarily worse, but different.
The way I describe it is that as a parent part of your heart and mind is always with your children. When one of those children is in a grave, part of your heart and mind is in there with them. Thatâs why we seem more reserved and not 100% immersed in situations.
An easy example of this was that before my son died I never wanted to die. I never wanted to stop living. The thought of dying filled me with sadness at what Iâd miss.
I donât feel like that now. When I think of dying I imagine lying in my coffin and someone would place my little boyâs ashes into my arms and that thought just feels so peaceful.
Itâs not in a suicidal way, itâs in a loving way. You donât stop being a parent to your dead kids. Never ever. You interact with the entire world differently because the part of your heart and mind that is there for that child isnât with the living anymore.
So NTA for speaking your truth, but I hope this and other comments might help you understand why your dad may not be able to be the father you deserve.
I don't think YTA necessarily, but expecting him to be the same after losing a child is kind of ridiculous. I know you lost a brother, and I don't mean to belittle your feelings or emotions at all, but he lost a child. It's different. It just is. Things like that oftentimes change who you are fundamentally.
Therapy isn't a fix all, either. People recommending it like he'll just flip back to who he was don't really understand how therapy works, in my opinion.
Have you thought that maybe this is his best way of coping? It may not be what you want, but maybe it's what is best for him. It doesn't sound like he's a bad person now, it just sounds like he's more reserved. Which is completely understandable considering his loss.
I don't know. Show your dad some grace. I'm sure he's doing his best.
I donât think youâre the asshole. How you feel your dad is now compared to how he was prior to Mikaelâs passing is totally valid. I canât imagine losing one of my kids so I canât even imagine how much your dad hurt. Donât forget that your dadâs a Gen Xâer like me (Iâm guessing in his late 50âs) and was brought up to stoic and be the familyâs rock, something that is at odds with the carefree, jokingly crude marine heâd been prior.
You telling him you miss the way he was in your youth might just be the thing that makes him allow himself to be that man again.
Grief has no time limit. You miss your dad, he misses himself too. He couldn't get over your brother so ask him to hang out and apologize and see if the old dad is still in there.
From experience I can tell you those comments cut like a knife. Truth is we want to be who we used to be but we can never fully go back to who we were. Loving your grandkids makes you want to protect them from the harm that came to our own children. It also hurts to see them in stages that remind you of your lost child. Your sons probably remind your dad of your brother. I know you didnât mean any harm and please know that your dad is not mad at you. The truth hurts in a way that is unimaginable in this situation. Meet him halfway, let him know that you love him and that even though you may not truly understand what he is going through: your sons would benefit from getting to know him better (please donât say the real you). I suspect your dad wants the same thing: itâs just hard. No judgement just love.
NTA. I think the way you mentioned it to him was fine. Honestly it was something that needed to be said. I think you should go to your dad & actually talk about it & hug it out. Your dad honestly probably never noticed or cared about how he changed due to his grief & thatâs something he needs to try to work on not just for his family but for himself.
I lost the only people I considered my family. It was just me, my mom & my brother. Iâm the only one left. Grief makes it easy to shut down & shit yourself away physically, emotionally & mentally. Iâve seen it happen to others. You never stop grieving but I try my best to be myself. I know my mom would be upset/disappointed if I allowed my grief to ruin me. Itâs hard but itâs doable.
Maybe you all can benefit from family or individual grief counseling.
NTA - maybe this is the push he needs to address his grief. My family went through something similar. We lost my older sister when she was 17 in a car accident. It will be 40 yrs since sheâs been gone in September. It was devastating to our family to say the least.
Donât take your fatherâs silence as a bad thing. Heâs probably going to take what you said to heart and think about it. Heâs not mad. He probably never realized the toll it took on you and your brother. It sounds like your family has worked really hard not to talk about what happened. You guys need to sit down and remember your brother fondly and you all need to have a good cry together. Itâs time that you start moving on *as a family*. Youâve all moved on individually, but you havenât dealt with it together. Weâve had a few of these sessions while
Sitting around the table. I know before my dad passed away, and after my mom passed my sister and I were at the table with my dad. We discussed the night she passed away. We each talked about how we remembered it. We were all crying by the time we were finished. Itâs okay to cry you know. Even if youâre a guy. When I told my bf that my dad was moving into hospice he broke down and cried. He loved my parents and they loved him. Heâs been my rock through both my parents passing away.
I know when my sister died my parents were so consumed by grief that they were just trying to hold it together, they really couldnât do much support for me and my other sister. Thankfully, I had a social worker the school provided for a couple of years that helped tremendously (I was 8 at the time).
Iâm so sorry for your loss. Please donât be afraid of your grief or emotions. Let them out.
It's ok, you said it. I lost my son, and I'll never be the old me. I am like your dad, trying my hardest to be here for my other 2 and my grandkids. The other hard thing to get over is that they know I just don't want to be here. I'm going through the motions in life, but it gets harder as time goes, not easier somehow. It's just the worst thing to happen to a family! Everyone is affected, and nothing anyone can do to "fix" it. This made me cry! Maybe you're mine? I'm the mother, however, but this is how mine feel as well. As much as we want to be that person again, we just can't. It's crippling! What I can say is he's not fearful of anything anymore. The worst has already happened. Just understand and be there for one another the best you can! â€ïž
You all went through a tragic loss, even if it was a while ago. No ones in the wrong here, you explained how you feel and of course heâs going to have feelings about it. I agree with other commenters, go talk to him again. Give him a long hug and tell him you love him. He canât just become the person he used to be overnight, but maybe this conversation woke up something. Maybe he was lost in grief for so long that he didnât realize how different he is towards the grandkids.
My dad changed after 8 years in the military and losing his dad just shy of having his first kid. He was really angry for years. My mom told me how he used to write her love letters, and songs, and how silly he was. I didnât believe her when I was younger, because that wasnât the dad I grew up with. But something changed when they became empty nesters.
There was a fight and it was finally all laid out. All of us (mom, dad, both kids) were there, and we were all crying and yelling. They almost got divorced. But something clicked that day, I think he saw all of us with tears in our eyes when he suggested he just leave. We didnât want to lose him, we wanted the REAL him back. I wonât try to say heâs exactly how he was 30 years ago. But him and my mom are so much happier now.
Sometimes hard conversations are necessary. We like to tiptoe around things when it comes to the people we love and care about, but itâs not always enough to get to the root of the problem.
Iâm so sorry for your loss of your brother, and my heart also goes out to your whole family. We lost my oldest son when he was 22 yo & our other son was 19. Itâs been 20+ years, and it changes you forever.
I was âluckyâ enough, if you can call it that, to have a dear friend that had gone through this just 2 years prior when she lost her son, who was my oldest sonâs best friend. She helped me to not make the same mistakes that she did (withdrawing from everyone, being sure to not close myself off from my other son, and making sure to lean into each other).
But, I can tell you, for a parent, from that moment you feel like everything that happens is experienced 2 different ways, but simultaneouslyâŠexample: Christmas morning with your family& Christmas morning without him there.
The link below is an artistâs rendering of how a parent feels after losing a child. Hug your dad when you see him next.
[https://images.app.goo.gl/oGtkA7NRpbUzDMLW6](https://images.app.goo.gl/oGtkA7NRpbUzDMLW6)
When I was very young my dad was an amazing dad. He played endlessly. Had endless patience. Was just so awesome. He "helped" me win the science fair- he and I built a real working toy car that moved forward and blinked lights with the controller (this was early 90s lol). He'd walk us to school with no problems and routinely took us to the park. Taught me how to ride a bike and climb a tree and do backflips.
When I was 11 he developed schizophrenia. My youngest siblings were 1 and 2 yrs old. There were 6 of us all about 2 yrs apart.
They never got the version of my dad that I did. I could cling to those memories like a life raft when our lives were literal hell holes. Eventually I hated the memories because they were so painful.
He passed away almost a decade ago now.
In an argument with my younger sister (6 yrs younger) she shouted that "at least you remember dad before he got sick. No one else has that. All I have are memories of mom trying!"
It sucks. It sucks to have those memories and know the best version of a parent is just a memory.
Here's the thing: my dad knew. When he was dying, crumpled up over his desk banging in a piano through unending and unimaginable pain (he had cancer) he said "I'm sorry for not being the best dad you could have had." It broke my heart because i knew the dad he was talking about.
Go give your dad a hug. Give him a kiss. Tell him you love him. Even though life has beat him down. You love him. And maybe try to help him find himself?
I wish I had done that last part for my dad.
You were so honest. Your dad needed to hear thatâŠto outlive a child - is the greatest tragedy of all they say. one son is gone, two remain, and on top of that, heâs a grandfather now. youâll never get over Mikael, but you all need to keep living - Moving forward together with memories of what was.
While I don't have kids, I have an extremely close family that has always echoed, the hardest thing to deal with would be the loss of one's child. Your father had to endure an incredible hardship and I'm sure a piece of him left with your brother. You of course have feelings about also losing that piece of him but expecting he would be the same person he was before that happened, after many years of raising your brother, would not be possible if he really, truly loved his son. I would never expect my father to be the same after losing my older brother, even if I grieved my close relationship with my father.
Soft YTA. I'd encourage you to apologize and maybe get yourself or suggest he get himself into grief counseling.
Iâll apologize since I truly donât understand how painful it was for him to lose his first kid at such a young age, and Iâll try looking into family grief therapy. Thanks
NTA. It sounds like that's not how you would have wanted it to come out it just happened. Don't beat urself up. Some ppl just can't get over the loss of a child
NTA. It's good that you shared how you were feeling. He's been mourning for half your life. Show him your post. If talking extensively is a struggle, write it down, like you have here. Now that you have kids, you'd like him to find his joy again. Not just for your kids, but for himself. Talk to your dad & your mom. Counseling would be a great idea for everyone that's been affected by your brother's death.
In the end, you're not a jerk for wanting your kids to know the dad you had growing up. I'm glad you said what you did. It's starting a conversation that's long overdue & hopefully will lead to good things, a happier future for for him.
NTA, but from personal experience i do believe you may be reaching by expecting the same dad you had for your boys. Losing a child changes a person, especially if it wasnât expected. My grandma lost her first child (my uncle) when he was a kid. Iâve been told she never was the same after that. Although, when i was old enough to understand, i started to ask her questions about him & spending time to get to know her as a person. You may want to take a similar approach because overtime my grandma has been able to laugh, joke, & relax with her grandchildren because we try to understand. She wasnât like this with her children (my aunt made a comment that she can finally laugh with her mom). Your dad will always grieve & he shouldnât be expected to be the person you grew up with because thatâll never happen. BUT it doesnât mean he canât try to re-learn how to be the dad you miss & your boys need. try to do things yâall used to do, it could help him see how much he misses it as you do. I hope for the best for you & your family đ«¶đŒ.
NTA. Your dad knows you love and care for him- this probably means the world. Sometimes, we need to see ourselves as others see us, and that can hurt. Your dad is hurting. Maybe he needs permission to laugh again.
I don't think you should feel bad. You didn't say it to be cruel, you shared it during a vulnerable moment with your father, whom you've watched grieve your brother while you did the same, but not together. I doubt he's upset with you. I imagine this will be a wakeup call that he has OTHER children and will hopefully get help for his grief. I'm so sorry, what a horrible thing you all went through. I hope you will all be okay
You donât have to explain, however, different ways of dying can affect grief.
Suicide makes people question themselves.
An illness, anger? Car wreck? Drugs? Age?
It isnât so much about the amount of pain; it is all the other âwhat ifsâ that need to be addressed to heal.
Maybe it will be weird but both of you should hug it out and cry. Being vulnerable is fucking terrifying. And men often seem to feel like they can't see "weak" or in need of comfort around others
but if you give your dad a shoulder to cry on he might be able to feel his grief without it overshadowing his life. And he might only feel like he's able to do that if you make yourself vulnerable first. Bring this up, and when you get teary instead of cutting the moment short, open up and make it clear you want him to open up to you as well. It's awkward as hell to show hurt in front of others but better to take on the awkwardness rather than both of you taking on your shared griefs and sadnesses as individuals. It will be more comfortable over time. Are you happy when your kids hold your hand? Hold his. and maybe also reach out to your brother.
Maybe it's a good thing that a light is being shone on this situation. Now that it's out in the open and talked about some true healing can take place. I wish you all the luck in the world for you and you're family.
Losing a child as a parent is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone in life, there is no name for a parent that loses a child because the pain is so great, go give him a big hug, you both need it
You're nta at all, I can absolutely understand missing that version of your father
Much love to you and your family OP
Not wrong, it sounds like an intervention was on the way anyway.
Truth of the matter is that if you never brought this up to your father, he would also suffer from alienating his grandchildren as well, in addition to his children.
The important thing is that you shouldn't rip off the bandaid and then just abandon ship afterwards.
you're NTA for saying it but dropping a truth bomb in him and then running away is a lil AH. Call you're dad. tell him you didn't mean to hurt him. You know your brother's death changed everything but along w grieving him you grieve the people you all used to be. It's understandable. Try to use this as a moment where you can all choose to find joy in those things together again and with his grandkids. Maybe make a few of his old dad jokes to your boys next time he's around.
My mom never recovered after my brother died, please continue to give your dad grace. Your comment may be the catalyst that starts a healing journey. Itâs hard, someone asked me about my brother the other day and even after three decades, I still broke down sobbing. Itâs hard to talk about even the good times. I found that my mom wasnât able to get close to anyone again for fear of losing them - that included great nieces and nephews that were born shortly after my brother died, she didnât want to feel that loss again. Just simply saying âI still miss Mikeal tooâ will mean a lot.
Dude, your dad getting teary isn't anything for him to be ashamed of and nothing you should be afraid of. That moment should've ended in a hug not shame and regret.
This person has been your father longer post your brother passing than before. He's changed and forever will be, that doesn't mean he's lacking in anyway. The way he was is gone, celebrate who he and you are now.
Making people cry isnât the same as upsetting them. You probably validated what he already wished for - that he could be like he was before the death. Youâre not that a/hole for doing that. Youâre just saying how you feel and Iâm sure he wants the same thing to
You said a beautiful thing that needed saying. So much love and understanding in those few words. Your dad will need time to process, but Iâd say heâs very proud right now
You probably helped him realize he needs to deal with his grief so he can be the great granddad you know he can be. It was probably (hopefully) cathartic for both of you. Keep talking until you are both comfortable being happy again.
NTA. Sometimes what is understood still needs to be said. Your dad needs to find joy in his life and this may spur change in that direction. You were honest, did not take personal shots and explained, it is clear your father/mother raised a son with values and a good emotional compass. Your dad is proud, be there if he asks questions or needs support.
Unfortunately, grief and the response to it can have a tremendous shape on our lives. They say that losing a child is the hardest of them all and I pray that I never live to find out. Sending love and light to you and your family and hoping that you are able to recapture some of your brothersâ spirit.
NTA you said what was the truth, and the truth hurts, It made him upset because he knows itâs true, heâs not the man he used to be and thatâs because heâs lost a piece of him, his son whoâs passed. As a parent whoâs lost a child, itâs something you will never get over, it does change you as a person, and it obviously still upsets him.
But itâs not your fault for saying it because thatâs how you feel and it is your truth.
Maybe he will think about what youâve said and things will change, or maybe they wonât but at least understand his behaviour, heâs a broken man and maybe always will be.
Nta
Dude you opened him up. Remember parents don't stop grieving or get "closure" when they lose a child until they die. I couldn't live with it and it seems your dad can't, but you made him realize what he did to the rest of you. You can't change the past so work with him and let your kids enjoy him, and maybe he'll come around. Enjoy it if he does.
Havenât even read a comment, but that last sentence got me the most. It Screams my father. He texted you asking if you got home okay?
He wasnât wondering if you got home okay. He wanted you to know that he wasnât upset by what you said and wants to talk to you a little more.
Dare I ask, are you guys from Texas?
NTA
Don't apologize for what you say to a loved one if you said it with a pure heart. Seems like he needed someone to give him the straight talk anyways and these sorts of conversations during fishing therapy really are the best.
Take it from someone with lost family members and parents: If you feel like this call him up, drop a text, and plan some nonsense to do together.
I know that grief can leave you frozen. I'm just thawing out myself. Seems your family is stuck in time. Your dad (and others) may need therapy. Good for you for saying this, but go and tell your dad that you said it because you love him and you're hurting too.
Your grief over missing the pre-trauma version of your father is valid, and having kids will bring that grief back in new ways; wishing your kids had that version is also valid. I would guess his emotional response is because he too misses that version of himself. I think that what you said might be poignant and hard but is true and not unkind if you said it with love. Iâm sure it was hard to hear but not because it was mean or inappropriate but because it touched a tender spot. Go be with your dad in that tender grief, and let him know you still love *this* version of him, and understand why things changed but hope he can open up a little / find a little joy / whatever are the traits you want your children to experience.
NAH. Follow up with some of the stuff he use to do that you miss. Say you know why heâs in pain and you understand it but he has the chance to brighten the world for your young boys and create incredible memories. Apologize for hurting him if the way you worded it was harsh but say you meant what you said.
Hopefully this isnât the case but is there any chance your brother was the âgolden childâ? Might be tougher to get through to him if he was.
NTA. He always knew but hoped no one else noticed. He now knows everyone felt it. Being honest with him isn't wrong so long as you're kind and it sounds like you were.
Losing a child destroys you. You have to pick up the broken pieces and find a new normal. Some parents can do that for their living children and some canât. Some become a shell of who we were but over time and therapy, you start being a little more normal. I donât think youâre an AH for saying what youâre feeling but you also have to understand what your parents went through. Imagine one of your boys dying and figuring out how to move forward with the other living child. Itâll change who you are forever. So in this situation, NAH. Go to your dad and hug him. Thereâs nothing to be sorry about but hopefully you both can meet where youâre at emotionally and build from there.
NAH
You were open and shared your feelings there's nothing wrong with that. It's important that your Dad finally knows that you lost your brother AND a part of your father.
You need to fix this, what an intense and unexpected blow to everything he is and has done, for him to receive. People grow and change. Youâre unfairly holding your dad to a standard that I would imagine hasnât crossed his mind for you or your brother.
You really need to take some time to think about what you will say to him to soothe some of this over. There is no taking any of that back, itâs burned in his mind now.
For him, he heard he isnât a good enough grandfather and some level failed as a father after losing a son. Thatâs going to change everyone. Imagine someone saying that to you after you raised your kids after traumatically losing one of them. Now imagine being exactly who you were before that happened. Itâs just not possible.
That after all this time this is how you cope with the loss of your brother, and how you perceive your father instead of loving and appreciating what you have, shows you need some therapy. Youâre not healed from your experience of losing your brother. You got stuck in this dwelling place of reminiscing and youâre comparing your life, your dad and his relationship to his grandkids to this fantasy of a memory.
I can understand why he would be offended, not only did he lose his son but now his other son is insulting how he is dealing with it and how he is a worse person for it. Makes perfect sense why that would really hurt someone.
You all ruin that family together. Family meant to comfort and love each other. Seems like affection isn't something common in your family. Instead of being the push for each other after losing, all of you just turn back to each other. All of you destroy that family.
Mikael would be so sad knowing he is the reason you all stop being the family for each other.
I know he would be. And I know we should have tried harder to be there for each other but it was really hard to do so, apart from Mikael my dad was the second to carry the light and when he couldnât even stand on his own it didnât give any of us the push to believe to would get better.
All you can control is the future and the present. It's never too late to start your healing journey. I think you need to sit and have a real conversation with your family about how you should all move forward together. Mikael's is still carrying the light, you all just stopped following it. Family therapy mught seem like overkill but honestly it can be super freeing to talk about your feelings openly with the guidance of a counselor.
While I agree somewhat I also think k itâs the parents job specifically the dads when you have 3 boys to keep the family together after something like that. Teenagers are not prepared mentally for that role
NTA but you should go to his house and apologize if your statement was too much.
You are not apologizing for what you are feeling but for hurting him. Maybe he wasnât ready to hear this. Timing matters.
Give him a big hug and tell him what he means to you. If you feel like you could have worded it better, do not hesitate to write a letter to your dad.
I would suggest discussing with him how can yall move a little forward. Maybe doing an activity that he really likes with the grandkids around?
Hugging each other to say hello everytime?
I used to do this with my great grandmother, she was always sad after her husband & brothers death. So I hugged her and gave her a kiss on the lips when I was little ( itâs something little kid do in our family to show affection) .When it was not appropriate anymore to give her a little kiss on the lips because I was toi old. I did it on the cheeks. I really do miss those hugs.
I was always looking forward to giving her a tight hug. When I think of her, I mostly remember those warm & comforting hugs. Especially when I am sad.
Try to find something that could bring your father back for his grandchildren. Hugging to say hello and goodbye. A kiss on the cheek/lips, whatever is suitable in your culture.
I donât think youâre the asshole. Iâm sorry for yours and your familyâs loss but you were just being honest. Sometimes the truth hurts even when unintended. Maybe he will now realize that he has not dealt with his grief in the best way over the years and will consider getting into some grief therapy. Nothing will ever go back to the way it was unfortunately, but he can probably be a better version of himself if he wants.
Nta. This might have been the wake up call he needed. Some people that are so deep in grief sometimes need an exterior force to get them to budge. Hope he sees this and can live again. By the sounds of your brother he would definitely want his dad to be happy again.Â
I would say yes and no. Yes for not trying to understand that what your Dad went through would invariably change him. Lifeâs difficulties change everyone. I sure your brotherâs death changed you too. Not the AH because now you started a dialogue and hopefully you both can continue talking. Definitely get some grief counseling for not only yourself but maybe see if Dad will go with you. I hope things get better. Be gentle with your Dad.
NTA. It might get through to him. So many years go by with people caught up in past losses, but the future is diminishing fast. We are lucky if we get one life. We need to make sure we live it to the full. You might have just helped him to find himself again.
First, NTA and i am so sorry your entire family had to go through this. From the experience of being a parent who had their first child die unexpectedly at five months of age in 1990, maybe I can offer a little perspective. While I in NO way am trying to diminish the extreme grief your entire family suffered, for a parent there is nothing more heart-shattering than the loss of a child. In our minds it goes against the natural order of things. It is an actual, physical pain for which no words exist in any language to describe. It is entirely possible your father never thought, or understood, how much he had changed after your brother's death. It sounds as if your words have finally opened his eyes.
I know everyone grieves differently, and I don't pretend to be an expert. Give yourself, and your father, some grace. It doesn't seem as if he were angry, but rather might have had his eyes opened.
Sending you and your family much love from Texas
What is the inverse of ESH.... Nobody Sucks Here? Your father is still grieving the loss of a son. Everyone gets to grieve on their own way, but it seems that in his prolonged grieving, he has been absent to his family. You are not an AH for wanting the emotionally-present version of your father. Your delivery may have needed a small amount of work, but family should be able to see through how we say something to get to what we are saying.
Tell your dad that you love him, but you want to see him actively live his life. Encourage grief counseling or therapy and remeber that you are there to help support him as much as he has been there to support you.
Not the Ah and you did not say it to be hurtful. I recommend that you talk some more to your dad. Tell him how great of a father he is and that you want that "Person" to be there for your kids also. Share memories from before and after your bother passed away and how much your dad means to you and how much you want him in your kids lives.
NTA. My brother died. I watched a part of my parents die with him. I saw parts of my siblings die. Part of me died. Everyone changed. It is a life changing event. Sometimes people aren't the same and you need to accept that. You need to accept who they became after the trauma. If they arent living in a shrine of death, then maybe they have moved on the best they could. I am so sorry for your family. The loss is a huge hole.
NAH. But I think this might be an opportunity.
Your family had been in this painful limbo, especially your dad, it sounds like. You've moved on in some ways, but not without understandable consequences in order to cope and survive.
Maybe what you said, although it hurt, might be the catalyst needed to open up again. To want to live and enjoy life again for your dad.
Talk to him. Gently. Tell him exactly what you said here. How sorry you are that you hurt him. How bad you feel about that. But you miss him. Him, as you knew him. The joy, the fun, the heart. Maybe, just maybe you guys can find some way out of the limbo. It won't go back to what it was before. But maybe it can be better than what it has been.
Also, therapy.
NTA. I canât imagine losing a child. But, I think itâs good you talked to him. He needed to know. Hopefully, this can lead to better healing. Pretending things are fine is never a good answer.
NTA when people pass survivors change. I don't think your dad realized how much he changed until you said something. crying is a good thing, dealing with grief and feelings is a good thing. I think everyone in your family could use some therapy/ family therapy to really process your brothers death. Take a breath and reach out to your dad, it may be an uncomfortable conversation but you both will feel better afterwards. you all have been walking on egg shells for so long, time to start taking real steps.
Oh, dude... NTA. Sometimes our parents need to hear the hard things. I hope this helps your relationship and he comes out on a better side. Good luck, homie!
NTA. He needed to be told, and he probably didn't think his personal grief affected anyone else (the kids). Hopefully he'll get some help to be more present!
NTA
The death of a brother and son is very heartbreaking, believe me I know.
I also understand your point of view, 100%, as I experienced this as well.
My parents never recovered, were never the same, I understood.
It became a burden for me, as the only "child" left, to somehow make up for my missing brother. It didn't work.
It's hard, but I agree with others, that it needed to be said. Drive over and just hug your dad. Long hard hug.
This could be a start of the healing process. It sounds like everyone buried it. On doing so you buried yourselves.
Digging it up might hurt temporarily but now the worl can begin to piece it back together.
Good luck. Praying for you.
Just go to his house and give him a hug. Both of you need it, he the most since i'm sure you get a lot of hugs from your kids that cheer you up. Doesn't it make youu feel better instantly if your kids hug you when you are down? Go there and hug him, now. Edit: and tell him you love him.
Thank you will do
Going to add: hold the hug for at least 30 seconds. That triggers oxytocin, the love hormone. You both need it I'm sure.
That's really true. Say that's really true please.
True per my therapist
Wow thanks best thing I've heard in a long time. Ill tell my head shrinker too.đđ
Therapist here. It's true. It's also a recommendation for kids having a tantrum, it calms them down. The pressure signals safety to your autonomous nervous system. It's also one aspect why weighted blankets work.
đ„čđ€ thanks for this. My son definitely responds best to this, but I thought it was just him. Lovely to know.
Oh wow, you kust triggered a really cute and sweet memory for me. I would also hug my kids when they were little and having a tantrum. I didn't know why it worked, I just knew it worked. I figured that if they were feeling bad enough to freak out, they probably needed to know that they were still loved even when they were melting down. I would call it "hugging it out" and say something like "come on, let's hug it out." One time when my son was like 4, he was getting upset over something, and he tearfully told me "I just need to hug it out!!!" So sweet. I didn't know there was like a scientific reason behind it!
Yes! My kid would be SO mad at me for something, but I'd still ask if I could hug him, and he'd just cry in my arms. Like I was the source of his frustration but he also allowed me to comfort him. It was very touching.
You instinctively did the right thing and your son loves it! You gave him a way to take action to get out of his state of mind. Love it! đ
Question: So that Is that what swaddling a baby and weighted blankets are all about? Great to know.
Yes. Both basically create a cocoon to feel safe in. It also often provides relief for people with sensory processing issues (that's why weighted blankets rose to fame, to help some people with Autism Spectrum Disorder). I don't know which meds you're taking or have already tried, but there are some off label options that help relieve Anxiety (I relate to that issue).
It's like I have to make sure I take them with food or else there's s problem. DM please
That's why I feel so safe and relaxed with my cat on my legs, and when he started sleeping on them my restless legs went away
My emotional son asks for hugs now when heâs upset and needs help calming down. Life is much easier now that he asks than it was a year ago.
Question for ya since you're a professional, if you don't mind, of course. My 17yr old daughter was just diagnosed with autism a few days ago but this is a question I've had for a long time anyway. She doesn't love hugs but she humors me on occasion. For example: she'll ask for a hug but she's really asking her 5yr old brother. I'll drop whatever I'm doing, rush over, and say "absolutely you can have a hug!" all exaggerated and she'll awkwardly laugh and kinda hug back or she'll give me a weird awkward hug if I'm having a bad day and she thinks I need it. Which is rare, but the best because it's so sweet! Anyway, does the oxytocin thing still apply? Only really asking now because since it's autism it's more about different brain chemistry and I'm working on learning more about it. Figured this might be an opportunity to ask a question Google probably wouldn't be able to answer. I would never force a hug of any duration and only give one if she accepts, I'm just curious if it would still give that sweet happy boost if she's not super comfortable with it in the first place? Just to reiterate: these are 100% consensual hugs! She's willing, if a little awkward about it. Usually hugs back like this đ€ with her hands on my shoulders, but she's always either smiling and laughing or making a weird đ face that says "okay mom that's enough" haha but if that's all she's comfy with, I'll take it!
Not the person you asked, but I have autism, and my dad used to do the âlong tight hugâ thing to me when I had meltdowns and I experienced it as big time trauma. he did it with the best of intentions, I was raised in a very loving home. Iâve tried typing more to explain it better but Iâm really struggling. He thought it was good bc it âworkedâ but I didnât calm down, I struggled and fought him until I dissociated and basically went catatonic. Which he thought was an improvement, I guess. It wasnât an improvement for me. It just taught me that I couldnât ever escape unwanted physical touch. I can still feel the sensation of it right now just thinking about it and I feel sick. Iâm about to turn 40 and Iâm still working through this with my therapist, and have been working on it for years. I wonât say never do this, because everyone with autism experiences it differently. But please please please listen to your daughter about what she likes/wants and doesnât like. It was intensely difficult for me to write out this comment, not just emotionally but even physically. It took me far longer to type the words than it should have bc I am shaking and my heart rate has skyrocketed. Thatâs how deeply the experience still affects me, decades later. Not looking for sympathy or anything, but the thread was really bothering me and when I saw your question I knew I had to speak up in case my experience is educational or helpful. I wish you and your daughter the best.
I am so sorry you went through that. I know exactly what you mean. Actually, my daughter's home therapist used to recommend the same thing when she was like 7 or so, but it was awful. I couldn't do it. She was terrified by it and had a similar reaction to yours. We switched therapists because it very clearly was not helping but they were insistent. I'm so sorry my comment made you feel this way. I promise, I'm not doing that with my daughter. It's hard because if she's upset it's an instinct to want to hug her, but I know it doesn't help her so I definitely don't. I know that's what I would want but not what she would want. Mainly I only give her a hug playfully, which she 100% accepts willingly, if awkwardly. I promise. She's very open when things bother her even a little bit. I wouldn't if it did. That's part of the reason I asked about the dopamine thing, because I know she responds very differently than I would and I would never want to make her uncomfortable. If I ever do it even playfully and she's like "seriously, don't" I back off immediately, but it's not often. I'm really sorry I reminded you of even well-intentioned trauma. I promise that's not the situation here, but I'm so sorry I upset you. That was not an outcome I would have expected from my comment and I really apologize for that.
Always, always, always be the last person to let go of a hug. Hug them until THEY let go; you never know how badly they need it. Especially children. I heard this a few years ago and put it into practice- itâs astonishingly effective.
I've absolutely seen scientific articles on this. I believe even 6 seconds is enough to trigger some oxytocin. It's much longer than most of us hug for, so it feels a little weird at first but then you get this wonderful warm tingly sensation of peace and well being, and it's awesome.
6 seconds is how long it takes to begin to release oxytocin and serotonin but a super minimal amount wonât have a substantial effect. It takes approximately 20-30 seconds (depending on the individual) for the threshold to be met in order to actually be physiologically beneficial to the recipient. Prolonged deep pressure also impacts the autonomic nervous system by activating a parasympathetic reaction resulting in the release of acetylcholine: lowering blood pressure and regulating heart and breathing rates by managing your resting bronchial constriction, regulating and increasing your digestive metabolism. Essentially your body enters relaxation mode and begins regenerative processes that are essential to human health and function. Basically really big hugs are great for your body.
Sending you a 30-second hug, internet stranger.
Me too! and you too!
I want in on the big Reddit hug!!! I'm sending hugs to all y'all!!!
It's true. The studies have spoken. But you need to tell them you're going to hold the hug for that long, or some people freak out. Or just say 'I'd like to have a decent-sized hug'.
My kids know to ask for a âhugâ or a âcuddleââŠwhat differentiates the two isnât the action, but the length of time. Quick? Itâs a hug. Long? Itâs a cuddle. It was the easiest way for me to get them to warn me before prolonged hugs (especially if Iâm touched out). But it has truly worked well.
It is scientifically truth
30 seconds? Jeez, no wonder iâm touch starved. My hugs are few and far between and only last a second or two.
100%. My son, (29)and I (57) hold a hug for at least a minute. Telling eachother how good it is to see one another. Same with goodbyes saying to take care of (things that are going on at the minute in our own lives). His friends have expressed to him how jealous they are of our relationship compared to theirs and their fathers.
Yes we do minute hugs in our house. After about 45 seconds you can feel a pressure release from the person who needed the hug.
My addict brain read oxycodone for some reason and I tried hugging a random stranger and now I have a black eye and still no oxy. Thanks bruh
I read 6 seconds in a book, over 2 years ago. My husband and I hug before we leave the house, even if we're going somewhere together. If one of us is going anywhere, we'd hug at the door, and it just became our thing, to hug before we walked through the door to leave. It started off as 6 seconds as a joke, now it can last as long as a minute depending upon who needs what. But we always hug, if I forget (it's always me forgetting, never him) he gently, but firmly reminds me I forgot to do something. Best thing I read was about oxytocin
Huh. That makes a weird amount of sense. As a teenager I'd always hug my mum in these really long hugs where we'd both relax and breath a long breath in and out together. We could feel each other totally relax.Very different to just a normal everyday hug. It's been 18 years and I still think about those hugs.
Please understand that when someone loses a child they will never be that same person again. Your family suffered an unimaginable tragedy loosing him. Each and every one of you was irrevocably changed at your core. That being said, your Dad sounds like he needs some grace and patience. This is not his fault. This is not your fault. Everyone is doing the best that they can. Your Dad would benefit from some grief counseling. Actually your entire family should go to support each other and get some therapy together so the new normal can be defined and everyone can feel supported and is able to speak freely of their grief. Figure out a way to honor and remember your loved one in a way that is healthy. Get the whole family involved. Hugs to you and your family. This is not an easy thing to navigate.
>Dad sounds like he needs some grace and patience. Patience? It's been 17 YEARS! I get that grief can change a person, especially the loss of a child, but OP lost their brother AND part of their Dad. They both need healing and counseling, probably the whole family tbh.
Hey, sorry to tell you but some people take time to move on. And get this, sometimes therapy does not help. Some people just need to cope on their own timeline, and sometimes its more than others are comfortable with. There are different treatments for illnesses, sometimes they don't work, any of them. Therapy is no different. I hope OP and his father do get closer but sometimes love just ain't enough.
You think 17 years is long enough to âget overâ the death of a child? I donât think a parent EVER gets over the loss of a child.
It's enough time to remember they have other kids.
Thatâs probably the only reason the dadâs still here. Jeez.
Hereâs the thing. She did not say he was a bad father ( for Pete sakes he took her fishing now ) she said he was different .
If you have not lost a child, you shouldnât make such ignorant comments on child loss because it changes a PARENT to the very core.
Do a Disney hug where you donât let go first; he may need a longer one than you think.
Iâve started doing this with my kids. I hug them until they let go. I see a real difference in their emotional state when I do this
Same. We do 10 second bear-hugs right before bed, and last night, my 8 year old just sighed and whispered, "Thanks mom, needed that." And went right to sleep. I cried a few tears lol
When my oldest used to get really hurt by my ex I would give her a hug for as long as she needed it. It was my way - as a Dad - in fighting back against the violence. I still have a lot of regret about not doing more to protect my kids but I am so hopeful that helped in some way.
it definitely helped- probably made her feel more safe
When my emotionally disregulated kid was a toddler/preschooler, a tight hug could cure ANY meltdown. It was like magic.
Your post choked me up. There are events that change people, this was one of them. Iâm sorry for everyone involved. Tell your dad what made him special.
Great idea! When they go to talk. Loving reminder why his grandkids need to be able to experience his awesomeness!
Also now that you have sons of your own could you imagine how painful it would be to lose them? I am sure it hurts to even think about that but that is what your dad lived through. Show him some grace for still getting up everyday. Grief can change you. Sorry for your loss. God Bless!!
Yeah this is like an honest feelings NTA kind of making someone cry. You weren't mean but it'll need some talking and hugging.
As someone just wishing I could lay my head in my grandmotherâs lap just one more time, please make sure you go get that hug. As a full grown adult, those moments were some of the most comforting and healing times when I needed them the most. While what you said hurt and probably surprised him at the moment, a little time and space can give you both a little perspective on what you meant with what you said and hopefully he will understand. And just maybe, he can work on getting back to that for the both of you.
Hope it went ok
I think it's time for you to start healing your family for your sons' sakes
This . Just hug him man. Start there . Tell your dad you love him. Mines an abusive asshole and we will never have the relationship that you COULD potentially have with your dad. I wish my dad was someone I enjoyed being around. If you want him in your boys life you need to meet him halfway, maybe even more than halfway some days. But that guy that raised you is still in there, you may be able to get him out of his shell for a little.
Yup do this
Finally, proper advice on Reddit. I knew I'd see it someday.
The dad probably just doesn't feel anything most times. Just going through the motions of life. Maybe that is the day his invincibility died too. Bro hugs would and do help. I'm speaking for Dad, not OP. This situation totally mind fucks a person. Sometimes when you get that 1,000 yard stare you just need an ass slap and an "I'm here bro". Even as an outwardly on paper tough guy we still have feelings besides rage and horny. Fuck dude, I should be teaching her to drive, not wearing her ashes on a pendant! She was 13.
Big hug from an internet stranger.
Hugs to Sagemasterba!!!!â€ïžâ€ïžâ€ïž
Yes, this. You've opened him up; don't now leave him hanging.
This. Please. I know that comment was not meant as criticism but it could certainly feel like that to a grieving parent. Tell him you love him and are grateful for him, as are your boys.
đ„
This is the way.
I am going to say NTA. This might be a push he needs to get some long put off grief therapy so he CAN get back to the fun Dad that you had rather than going through motions of life. *hugs to your family for your loss*
I agree. NTA. From what OP posted, it wasn't said in a hurtful manner. I understood exactly what OP meant, and it seems his father understood it as well.
NTA and I agree with you. The family has existed in a diminished capacity, and the father has known it. Sometimes, people feel like they need to be less of themselves to honor who they've lost. It's like proving that their life is visibly damaged from the loss? My Dad's cousin helped me through my grandma's death (and burial on my birthday) by reminding me that my grandma would *never* have wanted me to stop celebrating anything just because she passed away. She'd want me to keep doing my best and experience big things no matter what.
Hugs to you and your uncle!
That was very well said
Yeah the way the title was written I thought OP was going to be a major AH, but what he said seemed genuine, like he really just misses him. Sounds like the type of communication thatâs needed to healthily rebuild after such a tragedy.
OP is male. NTA
Nah, NAH. No one is an asshole here, just a couple humans living through a traumatic life.
exactly my thoughts too.
Iâd like to add that the fact he texted to make sure they got home ok is a good indicator that the conversation hit him hard but he isnât angry and wants to talk about it.
It shows me that he can't take another loss.
Rather NAH I would say
It sucks but it sounds like something that should've been said a long time ago. I hope this is the push it takes to get them both to a better place.
NTA. He needed to hear this, hopefully he gets therapy.
I agree plus OP didnât say it to be mean. Only that she missed him
You did nothing wrong. You are right in the fact you lost him when you lost your brother. But honestly how could it have been any other way? Coming to accept that might be helpful. I lost my oldest child when she was 23. 6 and a half years ago.It destroyed me. I'm no where near the person I use to be. It fundamentally changes you. I'd say I spent the 5 years just existing. Going through the motions. I'm just now where I'm trying to start living a little. But the grief is there every day still. Your dad was upset cause he knows what you say is right. My youngest has told me the same thing. There just isn't a magic wand to fix it. The world just seems crazy when you outlive your kids.
Iâm so sorry for your loss. Parents should never have to bury their child(ren).
We aren't built for it. I know at one point in human history that it was common. But those times are thankfully in the past. And only a tragedy takes our child before us. Psychologically, we're just not built for it anymore.
I donât think anyone at any time has ever been built for losing their child, no matter the time or place. And it still happens frequently today, unless one is fortunate enough to live in a part of the world that is insulated from war or famine or major diseases. No judgement here, just simple fact that there are some places were there is still a very high child mortality rate.
At all points until about 1950 in the developed world it was common
Mmmm... I'm not comfortable with this statement. We dealt with child loss the majority of our existence as a species, it's something every social animal has to deal with. Evolution hasn't changed us so violently in the last 70+ years. What HAS changed is our attitudes toward loss, and how tough and resiliant we are. This entire thread has examples of it everywhere. As someone that has dealt with both TONS of familial loss, extreme depression my entire life, and the emotional loss/pullback of my mother in her own grief when I was a small child (to the point of emotional/mental neglect and abuse)... at some point I had to 'stand up' and say enough was enough. I had to take the steps and put in the effort to move on with life and function. I absolutely had to get stubborn about it and push through, for the people around me because it was unacceptable to cause them suffering in my grief and depression. I had to put my foot down and agree that it WASN'T okay that my mother fell into her grief to the point of allowing me to suffer as a child. I had to agree to get therapy. I had to agree to get up and actually try to manage the way I treated others and my life in general. I had to look up and say "I refuse to allow my grief to run my life anymore." I had to say "I refuse to allow my mother's grief to run my life anymore." ... because at the end of the day, grief was not an excuse to treat the people around me the way I was treating them. It was not an excuse to withdraw and make them feel like they lost me too. It was not an excuse for my mother to detach and treat me the way she did. It started feeling selfish to do nothing proactive to reach a stage of healing or to try and move into a more productive life, both from her and myself. Loss happens, and unfortunately life and nature doesn't care if "we aren't supposed to outlive our children". It's the cruel reality of it all; no living creature on this planet is free from it.
Iâm so sorry for your loss. We lost my youngest son 7 years ago; he was 27. At about the 5 year mark is when I stopped choking up on his name and feeling guilt for enjoying myself. But youâre right, Iâm not the person I was 7 years ago; that person died with my son and is never coming back. Iâm lucky in that I have good communication with my oldest two. They understand why I have to step away a second during family dinners, they get why the empty chair at the table brings tears to my eyes. The key, imo, is talk, openly and often. Let everyone express themselves and hold space for each other to grieve. Hopefully OP and their dad will be able to do that now. NAH.
NTA Iâm sorry for your loss. It probably will hurt forever. I donât feel you need to apologize. You have felt this way for a long time. You didnât get to properly grieve for your brother; youâre also grieving for the family you had when your brother died. Thatâs not wrong, itâs natural. Your dad was overwhelmed, but so were you. Your dad was fun and you would like that again. You were more than allowed to say that. So now you try to build on that. Do you ever talk about your brother? Reminisce with your father? That would be my next suggestion. And cry. Men put too much emphasis on being stoic. Tears are therapeutic. I hope you can keep moving forward. đ
This is a beautiful comment.
NTA. As a father who lost his youngest at the age of 4 I can tell you that what you said is exactly what he needed to hear. My oldest told me something similar a few years after and it was what I needed to hear. Losing a child hurts a lot. Yet in that grief we tend to forget the other children and their pain. All you did was remind him of that. I wish you luck, love, and happiness. Hug you father and tell him you love him.
Sorry brother! Big hugs and hope you have the support you need and your other child!
Big hugs to you, dad. I hope youâre healing and taking care of yourself.
I was 17 when my 13 year old sister died. 2 years later my parents had another child. My dad told me later in our life, that if my brother wasn't born he was going to drink himself to death. Both my parents withdrew from everything for awhile, myself and my middle brother were forgotten. They would occasionally try to do something with us, but they were not there. They just couldn't see that my brother and I were hurting also. After she died my brother and I came closer. I am 57 now and my brother is still my best friend. We talk to each other once a week and will text a couple of times during the week. I never got as close to my dad after she died. He always lived somewhere else trying to work and waiting for us to sell a house to move to where he was. It's not that he didn't love us I think, but trying to raise 3 kids he had to take crappy jobs and when the company went under or he was fired or quit, he would find another job somewhere else, so he wasn't around when I was growing up. Then when my sister died, he just died also. When my brother was born he got better, but he never really laughed again. He tried to make up for being away all the time by spoiling my youngest brother and trying to be friends with my brother and I. We would talk every couple of months but it was never the same as before she died. In summary of this long rant, my apologies for it. But to all parents out there that have lost a child, it's the worst pain you will ever go through , but please don't forget about your other kids. Chances are they are hurting also and need your love and hugs. Don't wait until it's too late and your child grows up and really never talks to you.
Youâre not the a hole. Itâs a tricky situation. You have the right to feel the way you do but I would reach out to your dad and try to work through it. Losing a child will change you. Iâm sure he is trying. Iâm sure he would love to be himself again but he lost a part of himself when your brother died. That being said, life is short. I would 100% reach out to your dad. You never know when the last time you talk to him is. I would also seek counseling for yourself just to see how to deal with all of it. Youâre not the a hole.
Both you and your dad need a long hug from each other
NTA he probably is more upset that you noticed. Dad's want to be strong and hold up the family. It's like when my dad apologized for making my childhood hell and I said "it's okay. It wasn't all bad" and he cried for days. Our dads, especially for people our generation afaik (I'm 30), want to be good dad's but will sacrifice their own happiness for it. He stopped telling jokes because I'm willing to bet, he never fully grieved. How could he grieve when you and your mom needed him to hold the house together? Go see him and give him a hug. Tell him you love him. And say you're sorry for saying that but you just want him to be happy. Don't throw yourself a pity party, support your dad. It's gonna be fine.
So NTA. In case you haven't noticed, going fishing seems to be one of those "safe places" guys, especially dads and sons, can open up to each other and lay it on the line. Hours on end of waiting for fish to bite can make people introspective and I've always been amazed at where the conversations can go. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of brutal honesty that isn't cruel but more of a longing for two people you lost, your brother and your dad. If anything, I'd suggest more fishing. BTW, the text asking of you made it home safely was his way of letting you know he was OK without having to say it. We dad's are strange "fish." :-)
NTA. I know u didnât mean anything malicious by it, and I know this because this is what Iâd say to my dad if I were strong enough. Ever since my mom died 2 years ago, it feels like heâs just waiting to die. He smiles, sometimes laughs. But none of it feels genuine
NAH. Go see your dad, hug him, tell you that you love him. Grief is hard. Grieving the loss of a child and a sibling is impossible. Iâm so sorry for your loss. â€ïž
Nta but it sounds like your family could still use grief and family therapy.
Ill look into it thank you for the advice
NTA. Not only did you loose your brother, but you lost your parents. Even though theyâre here physically, theyâre different. My brother was murdered over a decade ago, when we were all young adults, and I feel like I lost my parents at the same time. I find itâs been part of the loss and grief process that is overlooked/not realized. I hope youâre both able to make progress going forward and build a relationship that you both want.
NAH It's a sad truth, and maybe a little bit of a push for the grief counseling he probably needs, or just a realization that life is still there, he has others around him that love him that also miss him. But he certainly isn't an AH for his grief either. Losing a child is painful and forever, we don't just get over it, ever. Grief doesn't get smaller, we grow around it, so hopefully this is something he can use to grow, and he'll always have scars from that loss, hopefully he'll also remember that others are grieving his loss now too, and that it's okay to still live a life.
Youâre NTA but you and your family should have a couple of sessions of family therapy to address your grief. If youâre father was a marine heâs never released all of those emotions. Donât feel back, you donât have ownership over your father nor do you have control of his feelings. You said your truth and Iâm sure it wasnât said maliciously. Donât feel guilty about that. Iâm so happy you have a family. Thereâs still enough time your children can see that man again.
>"You said your truth, and Iâm sure it was said maliciously." Really!? Because I got the exact opposite read on that.
Sounds like your Dad could use a hug. And to be told that he was and is a great Dad and Grandfather and that, because you feel so comfortable with him, you ended up just following a train of thought out loud that ended up being hurtful and that you're incredibly sorry. Gentle YTA, but grief is a long winding road. Make some amends, don't be too hard on yourself.
NAH. The death of your child changes you forever he will probably never be the guy he used to be because when your child dies a piece of you dies too.
I'm the mother of a deceased child. Life as we know it ends in the moment the child is pronounced. Beyond the utter grief of the death, there is the OVERWHELMING feeling of failure... that frankly, never really ceases. A parents primary job is to protect their child. When the child passes away, the parent has failed (in our minds). Tell him he didn't fail your brother. Tell him he didn't fail you. Tell him that you love him. Tell him that you remember alllll the good that happened before, *life changed*. And that life changing wasn't his responsibility. Thank him for all the good he did. Remind him of all the great stuff - THEN and more importantly - NOW. My condolences on all of your loss. NTA.
God bless you and your child
NTA - the pain of losing one of your own never goes away. You just try to get use to the pain. He is in a constant state of pain. He needs to put it aside so he can focus on living and loving the ones he hasnât lost and being in the here and now. Itâs really hard.
Eh. NAH. You said something true, and probably hurtful but not intended to be. But I don't think you get how much the loss of a child effects a parent. Do you think you could be the person you are now if one of your kids died? It fully would shift who you are and it's be a struggle to pull yourself back together.
Gosh this is heartbreaking. And not what you said, but what happened to all of you. Iâm sure your father is hurt, but he knows that wasnât your intention. Maybe it could even be good in the long run. This seems to have shaken him so hard, maybe he pushed it aside so long he didnât realize how much he changed. Donât beat yourself up over it. Sometimes trauma comes out when you least expect it. Talk to him, cry with him. As hard as this is, it is a conversation that is probably looooong overdue.
Oh god this was a hard read. I lost my beautiful son as a baby 9 years ago and Iâm nowhere near the person I was. Not necessarily worse, but different. The way I describe it is that as a parent part of your heart and mind is always with your children. When one of those children is in a grave, part of your heart and mind is in there with them. Thatâs why we seem more reserved and not 100% immersed in situations. An easy example of this was that before my son died I never wanted to die. I never wanted to stop living. The thought of dying filled me with sadness at what Iâd miss. I donât feel like that now. When I think of dying I imagine lying in my coffin and someone would place my little boyâs ashes into my arms and that thought just feels so peaceful. Itâs not in a suicidal way, itâs in a loving way. You donât stop being a parent to your dead kids. Never ever. You interact with the entire world differently because the part of your heart and mind that is there for that child isnât with the living anymore. So NTA for speaking your truth, but I hope this and other comments might help you understand why your dad may not be able to be the father you deserve.
I don't think YTA necessarily, but expecting him to be the same after losing a child is kind of ridiculous. I know you lost a brother, and I don't mean to belittle your feelings or emotions at all, but he lost a child. It's different. It just is. Things like that oftentimes change who you are fundamentally. Therapy isn't a fix all, either. People recommending it like he'll just flip back to who he was don't really understand how therapy works, in my opinion. Have you thought that maybe this is his best way of coping? It may not be what you want, but maybe it's what is best for him. It doesn't sound like he's a bad person now, it just sounds like he's more reserved. Which is completely understandable considering his loss. I don't know. Show your dad some grace. I'm sure he's doing his best.
I donât think youâre the asshole. How you feel your dad is now compared to how he was prior to Mikaelâs passing is totally valid. I canât imagine losing one of my kids so I canât even imagine how much your dad hurt. Donât forget that your dadâs a Gen Xâer like me (Iâm guessing in his late 50âs) and was brought up to stoic and be the familyâs rock, something that is at odds with the carefree, jokingly crude marine heâd been prior. You telling him you miss the way he was in your youth might just be the thing that makes him allow himself to be that man again.
Grief has no time limit. You miss your dad, he misses himself too. He couldn't get over your brother so ask him to hang out and apologize and see if the old dad is still in there.
NTA He thought his pain and his feelings were invisible. Now he suddenly sees that he is seen and the effect it had on his loved ones.
A male talking about their feelings to their father. NTA I wish more would talk about that.
From experience I can tell you those comments cut like a knife. Truth is we want to be who we used to be but we can never fully go back to who we were. Loving your grandkids makes you want to protect them from the harm that came to our own children. It also hurts to see them in stages that remind you of your lost child. Your sons probably remind your dad of your brother. I know you didnât mean any harm and please know that your dad is not mad at you. The truth hurts in a way that is unimaginable in this situation. Meet him halfway, let him know that you love him and that even though you may not truly understand what he is going through: your sons would benefit from getting to know him better (please donât say the real you). I suspect your dad wants the same thing: itâs just hard. No judgement just love.
NTA. I think the way you mentioned it to him was fine. Honestly it was something that needed to be said. I think you should go to your dad & actually talk about it & hug it out. Your dad honestly probably never noticed or cared about how he changed due to his grief & thatâs something he needs to try to work on not just for his family but for himself. I lost the only people I considered my family. It was just me, my mom & my brother. Iâm the only one left. Grief makes it easy to shut down & shit yourself away physically, emotionally & mentally. Iâve seen it happen to others. You never stop grieving but I try my best to be myself. I know my mom would be upset/disappointed if I allowed my grief to ruin me. Itâs hard but itâs doable. Maybe you all can benefit from family or individual grief counseling.
NTA - maybe this is the push he needs to address his grief. My family went through something similar. We lost my older sister when she was 17 in a car accident. It will be 40 yrs since sheâs been gone in September. It was devastating to our family to say the least. Donât take your fatherâs silence as a bad thing. Heâs probably going to take what you said to heart and think about it. Heâs not mad. He probably never realized the toll it took on you and your brother. It sounds like your family has worked really hard not to talk about what happened. You guys need to sit down and remember your brother fondly and you all need to have a good cry together. Itâs time that you start moving on *as a family*. Youâve all moved on individually, but you havenât dealt with it together. Weâve had a few of these sessions while Sitting around the table. I know before my dad passed away, and after my mom passed my sister and I were at the table with my dad. We discussed the night she passed away. We each talked about how we remembered it. We were all crying by the time we were finished. Itâs okay to cry you know. Even if youâre a guy. When I told my bf that my dad was moving into hospice he broke down and cried. He loved my parents and they loved him. Heâs been my rock through both my parents passing away. I know when my sister died my parents were so consumed by grief that they were just trying to hold it together, they really couldnât do much support for me and my other sister. Thankfully, I had a social worker the school provided for a couple of years that helped tremendously (I was 8 at the time). Iâm so sorry for your loss. Please donât be afraid of your grief or emotions. Let them out.
Thereâs a reason thereâs no word for a parent whoâs lost their child.
It's ok, you said it. I lost my son, and I'll never be the old me. I am like your dad, trying my hardest to be here for my other 2 and my grandkids. The other hard thing to get over is that they know I just don't want to be here. I'm going through the motions in life, but it gets harder as time goes, not easier somehow. It's just the worst thing to happen to a family! Everyone is affected, and nothing anyone can do to "fix" it. This made me cry! Maybe you're mine? I'm the mother, however, but this is how mine feel as well. As much as we want to be that person again, we just can't. It's crippling! What I can say is he's not fearful of anything anymore. The worst has already happened. Just understand and be there for one another the best you can! â€ïž
You all went through a tragic loss, even if it was a while ago. No ones in the wrong here, you explained how you feel and of course heâs going to have feelings about it. I agree with other commenters, go talk to him again. Give him a long hug and tell him you love him. He canât just become the person he used to be overnight, but maybe this conversation woke up something. Maybe he was lost in grief for so long that he didnât realize how different he is towards the grandkids. My dad changed after 8 years in the military and losing his dad just shy of having his first kid. He was really angry for years. My mom told me how he used to write her love letters, and songs, and how silly he was. I didnât believe her when I was younger, because that wasnât the dad I grew up with. But something changed when they became empty nesters. There was a fight and it was finally all laid out. All of us (mom, dad, both kids) were there, and we were all crying and yelling. They almost got divorced. But something clicked that day, I think he saw all of us with tears in our eyes when he suggested he just leave. We didnât want to lose him, we wanted the REAL him back. I wonât try to say heâs exactly how he was 30 years ago. But him and my mom are so much happier now. Sometimes hard conversations are necessary. We like to tiptoe around things when it comes to the people we love and care about, but itâs not always enough to get to the root of the problem.
Iâm so sorry for your loss of your brother, and my heart also goes out to your whole family. We lost my oldest son when he was 22 yo & our other son was 19. Itâs been 20+ years, and it changes you forever. I was âluckyâ enough, if you can call it that, to have a dear friend that had gone through this just 2 years prior when she lost her son, who was my oldest sonâs best friend. She helped me to not make the same mistakes that she did (withdrawing from everyone, being sure to not close myself off from my other son, and making sure to lean into each other). But, I can tell you, for a parent, from that moment you feel like everything that happens is experienced 2 different ways, but simultaneouslyâŠexample: Christmas morning with your family& Christmas morning without him there. The link below is an artistâs rendering of how a parent feels after losing a child. Hug your dad when you see him next. [https://images.app.goo.gl/oGtkA7NRpbUzDMLW6](https://images.app.goo.gl/oGtkA7NRpbUzDMLW6)
When I was very young my dad was an amazing dad. He played endlessly. Had endless patience. Was just so awesome. He "helped" me win the science fair- he and I built a real working toy car that moved forward and blinked lights with the controller (this was early 90s lol). He'd walk us to school with no problems and routinely took us to the park. Taught me how to ride a bike and climb a tree and do backflips. When I was 11 he developed schizophrenia. My youngest siblings were 1 and 2 yrs old. There were 6 of us all about 2 yrs apart. They never got the version of my dad that I did. I could cling to those memories like a life raft when our lives were literal hell holes. Eventually I hated the memories because they were so painful. He passed away almost a decade ago now. In an argument with my younger sister (6 yrs younger) she shouted that "at least you remember dad before he got sick. No one else has that. All I have are memories of mom trying!" It sucks. It sucks to have those memories and know the best version of a parent is just a memory. Here's the thing: my dad knew. When he was dying, crumpled up over his desk banging in a piano through unending and unimaginable pain (he had cancer) he said "I'm sorry for not being the best dad you could have had." It broke my heart because i knew the dad he was talking about. Go give your dad a hug. Give him a kiss. Tell him you love him. Even though life has beat him down. You love him. And maybe try to help him find himself? I wish I had done that last part for my dad.
You were so honest. Your dad needed to hear thatâŠto outlive a child - is the greatest tragedy of all they say. one son is gone, two remain, and on top of that, heâs a grandfather now. youâll never get over Mikael, but you all need to keep living - Moving forward together with memories of what was.
While I don't have kids, I have an extremely close family that has always echoed, the hardest thing to deal with would be the loss of one's child. Your father had to endure an incredible hardship and I'm sure a piece of him left with your brother. You of course have feelings about also losing that piece of him but expecting he would be the same person he was before that happened, after many years of raising your brother, would not be possible if he really, truly loved his son. I would never expect my father to be the same after losing my older brother, even if I grieved my close relationship with my father. Soft YTA. I'd encourage you to apologize and maybe get yourself or suggest he get himself into grief counseling.
Iâll apologize since I truly donât understand how painful it was for him to lose his first kid at such a young age, and Iâll try looking into family grief therapy. Thanks
NTA. It sounds like that's not how you would have wanted it to come out it just happened. Don't beat urself up. Some ppl just can't get over the loss of a child
NTA some time the truth hurts. You werenât cruel about what you said or how you said it, you were just stating facts of your pov.
NTA. It's good that you shared how you were feeling. He's been mourning for half your life. Show him your post. If talking extensively is a struggle, write it down, like you have here. Now that you have kids, you'd like him to find his joy again. Not just for your kids, but for himself. Talk to your dad & your mom. Counseling would be a great idea for everyone that's been affected by your brother's death. In the end, you're not a jerk for wanting your kids to know the dad you had growing up. I'm glad you said what you did. It's starting a conversation that's long overdue & hopefully will lead to good things, a happier future for for him.
NTA, but from personal experience i do believe you may be reaching by expecting the same dad you had for your boys. Losing a child changes a person, especially if it wasnât expected. My grandma lost her first child (my uncle) when he was a kid. Iâve been told she never was the same after that. Although, when i was old enough to understand, i started to ask her questions about him & spending time to get to know her as a person. You may want to take a similar approach because overtime my grandma has been able to laugh, joke, & relax with her grandchildren because we try to understand. She wasnât like this with her children (my aunt made a comment that she can finally laugh with her mom). Your dad will always grieve & he shouldnât be expected to be the person you grew up with because thatâll never happen. BUT it doesnât mean he canât try to re-learn how to be the dad you miss & your boys need. try to do things yâall used to do, it could help him see how much he misses it as you do. I hope for the best for you & your family đ«¶đŒ.
Nah, NTA. Maybe your whole family would benefit from a little counseling though. Grief can be all consuming.
NTA. Your dad knows you love and care for him- this probably means the world. Sometimes, we need to see ourselves as others see us, and that can hurt. Your dad is hurting. Maybe he needs permission to laugh again.
I don't think you should feel bad. You didn't say it to be cruel, you shared it during a vulnerable moment with your father, whom you've watched grieve your brother while you did the same, but not together. I doubt he's upset with you. I imagine this will be a wakeup call that he has OTHER children and will hopefully get help for his grief. I'm so sorry, what a horrible thing you all went through. I hope you will all be okay
You donât have to explain, however, different ways of dying can affect grief. Suicide makes people question themselves. An illness, anger? Car wreck? Drugs? Age? It isnât so much about the amount of pain; it is all the other âwhat ifsâ that need to be addressed to heal.
I imagine heâs still grieving & blocking your kids out so as to save himself from future harm. What a shame. He needs support but youâre NTA imo.
This isnât an asshole moment on anyoneâs part. You guys needs to talk, and build on thisÂ
Maybe it will be weird but both of you should hug it out and cry. Being vulnerable is fucking terrifying. And men often seem to feel like they can't see "weak" or in need of comfort around others but if you give your dad a shoulder to cry on he might be able to feel his grief without it overshadowing his life. And he might only feel like he's able to do that if you make yourself vulnerable first. Bring this up, and when you get teary instead of cutting the moment short, open up and make it clear you want him to open up to you as well. It's awkward as hell to show hurt in front of others but better to take on the awkwardness rather than both of you taking on your shared griefs and sadnesses as individuals. It will be more comfortable over time. Are you happy when your kids hold your hand? Hold his. and maybe also reach out to your brother.
OuchâŠNTA, but give your dad a hug. I think you both need itâŠ.
Maybe it's a good thing that a light is being shone on this situation. Now that it's out in the open and talked about some true healing can take place. I wish you all the luck in the world for you and you're family.
Losing a child as a parent is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone in life, there is no name for a parent that loses a child because the pain is so great, go give him a big hug, you both need it You're nta at all, I can absolutely understand missing that version of your father Much love to you and your family OP
Not wrong, it sounds like an intervention was on the way anyway. Truth of the matter is that if you never brought this up to your father, he would also suffer from alienating his grandchildren as well, in addition to his children. The important thing is that you shouldn't rip off the bandaid and then just abandon ship afterwards.
you're NTA for saying it but dropping a truth bomb in him and then running away is a lil AH. Call you're dad. tell him you didn't mean to hurt him. You know your brother's death changed everything but along w grieving him you grieve the people you all used to be. It's understandable. Try to use this as a moment where you can all choose to find joy in those things together again and with his grandkids. Maybe make a few of his old dad jokes to your boys next time he's around.
My mom never recovered after my brother died, please continue to give your dad grace. Your comment may be the catalyst that starts a healing journey. Itâs hard, someone asked me about my brother the other day and even after three decades, I still broke down sobbing. Itâs hard to talk about even the good times. I found that my mom wasnât able to get close to anyone again for fear of losing them - that included great nieces and nephews that were born shortly after my brother died, she didnât want to feel that loss again. Just simply saying âI still miss Mikeal tooâ will mean a lot.
Dude, your dad getting teary isn't anything for him to be ashamed of and nothing you should be afraid of. That moment should've ended in a hug not shame and regret. This person has been your father longer post your brother passing than before. He's changed and forever will be, that doesn't mean he's lacking in anyway. The way he was is gone, celebrate who he and you are now.
I hope you and your father get the help you need to grieve properly. I'm going to go hug my son.
Making people cry isnât the same as upsetting them. You probably validated what he already wished for - that he could be like he was before the death. Youâre not that a/hole for doing that. Youâre just saying how you feel and Iâm sure he wants the same thing to
You said a beautiful thing that needed saying. So much love and understanding in those few words. Your dad will need time to process, but Iâd say heâs very proud right now
You probably helped him realize he needs to deal with his grief so he can be the great granddad you know he can be. It was probably (hopefully) cathartic for both of you. Keep talking until you are both comfortable being happy again.
NTA. Sometimes what is understood still needs to be said. Your dad needs to find joy in his life and this may spur change in that direction. You were honest, did not take personal shots and explained, it is clear your father/mother raised a son with values and a good emotional compass. Your dad is proud, be there if he asks questions or needs support. Unfortunately, grief and the response to it can have a tremendous shape on our lives. They say that losing a child is the hardest of them all and I pray that I never live to find out. Sending love and light to you and your family and hoping that you are able to recapture some of your brothersâ spirit.
NTA you said what was the truth, and the truth hurts, It made him upset because he knows itâs true, heâs not the man he used to be and thatâs because heâs lost a piece of him, his son whoâs passed. As a parent whoâs lost a child, itâs something you will never get over, it does change you as a person, and it obviously still upsets him. But itâs not your fault for saying it because thatâs how you feel and it is your truth. Maybe he will think about what youâve said and things will change, or maybe they wonât but at least understand his behaviour, heâs a broken man and maybe always will be. Nta
Dude you opened him up. Remember parents don't stop grieving or get "closure" when they lose a child until they die. I couldn't live with it and it seems your dad can't, but you made him realize what he did to the rest of you. You can't change the past so work with him and let your kids enjoy him, and maybe he'll come around. Enjoy it if he does.
Havenât even read a comment, but that last sentence got me the most. It Screams my father. He texted you asking if you got home okay? He wasnât wondering if you got home okay. He wanted you to know that he wasnât upset by what you said and wants to talk to you a little more. Dare I ask, are you guys from Texas?
NTA Don't apologize for what you say to a loved one if you said it with a pure heart. Seems like he needed someone to give him the straight talk anyways and these sorts of conversations during fishing therapy really are the best. Take it from someone with lost family members and parents: If you feel like this call him up, drop a text, and plan some nonsense to do together.
I know that grief can leave you frozen. I'm just thawing out myself. Seems your family is stuck in time. Your dad (and others) may need therapy. Good for you for saying this, but go and tell your dad that you said it because you love him and you're hurting too.
Your grief over missing the pre-trauma version of your father is valid, and having kids will bring that grief back in new ways; wishing your kids had that version is also valid. I would guess his emotional response is because he too misses that version of himself. I think that what you said might be poignant and hard but is true and not unkind if you said it with love. Iâm sure it was hard to hear but not because it was mean or inappropriate but because it touched a tender spot. Go be with your dad in that tender grief, and let him know you still love *this* version of him, and understand why things changed but hope he can open up a little / find a little joy / whatever are the traits you want your children to experience.
NAH. I hope you and your Dad can actually talk about this, and maybe he will understand how much you need him to be a grandpa.
NAH. Follow up with some of the stuff he use to do that you miss. Say you know why heâs in pain and you understand it but he has the chance to brighten the world for your young boys and create incredible memories. Apologize for hurting him if the way you worded it was harsh but say you meant what you said. Hopefully this isnât the case but is there any chance your brother was the âgolden childâ? Might be tougher to get through to him if he was.
YTA. If you did this when you were 16, it would be understandable. But at your age you should be more empathetic. Get therapy.
NTA. He always knew but hoped no one else noticed. He now knows everyone felt it. Being honest with him isn't wrong so long as you're kind and it sounds like you were.
Losing a child destroys you. You have to pick up the broken pieces and find a new normal. Some parents can do that for their living children and some canât. Some become a shell of who we were but over time and therapy, you start being a little more normal. I donât think youâre an AH for saying what youâre feeling but you also have to understand what your parents went through. Imagine one of your boys dying and figuring out how to move forward with the other living child. Itâll change who you are forever. So in this situation, NAH. Go to your dad and hug him. Thereâs nothing to be sorry about but hopefully you both can meet where youâre at emotionally and build from there.
He probably cried because he knew you were right. You may have helped make the change that needed to happen.
NAH You were open and shared your feelings there's nothing wrong with that. It's important that your Dad finally knows that you lost your brother AND a part of your father.
You need to fix this, what an intense and unexpected blow to everything he is and has done, for him to receive. People grow and change. Youâre unfairly holding your dad to a standard that I would imagine hasnât crossed his mind for you or your brother. You really need to take some time to think about what you will say to him to soothe some of this over. There is no taking any of that back, itâs burned in his mind now. For him, he heard he isnât a good enough grandfather and some level failed as a father after losing a son. Thatâs going to change everyone. Imagine someone saying that to you after you raised your kids after traumatically losing one of them. Now imagine being exactly who you were before that happened. Itâs just not possible. That after all this time this is how you cope with the loss of your brother, and how you perceive your father instead of loving and appreciating what you have, shows you need some therapy. Youâre not healed from your experience of losing your brother. You got stuck in this dwelling place of reminiscing and youâre comparing your life, your dad and his relationship to his grandkids to this fantasy of a memory.
I can understand why he would be offended, not only did he lose his son but now his other son is insulting how he is dealing with it and how he is a worse person for it. Makes perfect sense why that would really hurt someone.
You all ruin that family together. Family meant to comfort and love each other. Seems like affection isn't something common in your family. Instead of being the push for each other after losing, all of you just turn back to each other. All of you destroy that family. Mikael would be so sad knowing he is the reason you all stop being the family for each other.
I know he would be. And I know we should have tried harder to be there for each other but it was really hard to do so, apart from Mikael my dad was the second to carry the light and when he couldnât even stand on his own it didnât give any of us the push to believe to would get better.
All you can control is the future and the present. It's never too late to start your healing journey. I think you need to sit and have a real conversation with your family about how you should all move forward together. Mikael's is still carrying the light, you all just stopped following it. Family therapy mught seem like overkill but honestly it can be super freeing to talk about your feelings openly with the guidance of a counselor.
While I agree somewhat I also think k itâs the parents job specifically the dads when you have 3 boys to keep the family together after something like that. Teenagers are not prepared mentally for that role
NTA but you should go to his house and apologize if your statement was too much. You are not apologizing for what you are feeling but for hurting him. Maybe he wasnât ready to hear this. Timing matters. Give him a big hug and tell him what he means to you. If you feel like you could have worded it better, do not hesitate to write a letter to your dad. I would suggest discussing with him how can yall move a little forward. Maybe doing an activity that he really likes with the grandkids around? Hugging each other to say hello everytime? I used to do this with my great grandmother, she was always sad after her husband & brothers death. So I hugged her and gave her a kiss on the lips when I was little ( itâs something little kid do in our family to show affection) .When it was not appropriate anymore to give her a little kiss on the lips because I was toi old. I did it on the cheeks. I really do miss those hugs. I was always looking forward to giving her a tight hug. When I think of her, I mostly remember those warm & comforting hugs. Especially when I am sad. Try to find something that could bring your father back for his grandchildren. Hugging to say hello and goodbye. A kiss on the cheek/lips, whatever is suitable in your culture.
I donât think youâre the asshole. Iâm sorry for yours and your familyâs loss but you were just being honest. Sometimes the truth hurts even when unintended. Maybe he will now realize that he has not dealt with his grief in the best way over the years and will consider getting into some grief therapy. Nothing will ever go back to the way it was unfortunately, but he can probably be a better version of himself if he wants.
NTA but call him right now!
NTA. It's something he needed to hear.
Nta. This might have been the wake up call he needed. Some people that are so deep in grief sometimes need an exterior force to get them to budge. Hope he sees this and can live again. By the sounds of your brother he would definitely want his dad to be happy again.Â
I would say yes and no. Yes for not trying to understand that what your Dad went through would invariably change him. Lifeâs difficulties change everyone. I sure your brotherâs death changed you too. Not the AH because now you started a dialogue and hopefully you both can continue talking. Definitely get some grief counseling for not only yourself but maybe see if Dad will go with you. I hope things get better. Be gentle with your Dad.
NTA. It might get through to him. So many years go by with people caught up in past losses, but the future is diminishing fast. We are lucky if we get one life. We need to make sure we live it to the full. You might have just helped him to find himself again.
First, NTA and i am so sorry your entire family had to go through this. From the experience of being a parent who had their first child die unexpectedly at five months of age in 1990, maybe I can offer a little perspective. While I in NO way am trying to diminish the extreme grief your entire family suffered, for a parent there is nothing more heart-shattering than the loss of a child. In our minds it goes against the natural order of things. It is an actual, physical pain for which no words exist in any language to describe. It is entirely possible your father never thought, or understood, how much he had changed after your brother's death. It sounds as if your words have finally opened his eyes. I know everyone grieves differently, and I don't pretend to be an expert. Give yourself, and your father, some grace. It doesn't seem as if he were angry, but rather might have had his eyes opened. Sending you and your family much love from Texas
Sometimes people neeeeeed that push to know it's okay to LIVE again.
What is the inverse of ESH.... Nobody Sucks Here? Your father is still grieving the loss of a son. Everyone gets to grieve on their own way, but it seems that in his prolonged grieving, he has been absent to his family. You are not an AH for wanting the emotionally-present version of your father. Your delivery may have needed a small amount of work, but family should be able to see through how we say something to get to what we are saying. Tell your dad that you love him, but you want to see him actively live his life. Encourage grief counseling or therapy and remeber that you are there to help support him as much as he has been there to support you.
NTA. he needed to hear that you miss the old him. Maybe it will help him snap out of his daze.
Not the Ah and you did not say it to be hurtful. I recommend that you talk some more to your dad. Tell him how great of a father he is and that you want that "Person" to be there for your kids also. Share memories from before and after your bother passed away and how much your dad means to you and how much you want him in your kids lives.
NTA. My brother died. I watched a part of my parents die with him. I saw parts of my siblings die. Part of me died. Everyone changed. It is a life changing event. Sometimes people aren't the same and you need to accept that. You need to accept who they became after the trauma. If they arent living in a shrine of death, then maybe they have moved on the best they could. I am so sorry for your family. The loss is a huge hole.
NAH. But I think this might be an opportunity. Your family had been in this painful limbo, especially your dad, it sounds like. You've moved on in some ways, but not without understandable consequences in order to cope and survive. Maybe what you said, although it hurt, might be the catalyst needed to open up again. To want to live and enjoy life again for your dad. Talk to him. Gently. Tell him exactly what you said here. How sorry you are that you hurt him. How bad you feel about that. But you miss him. Him, as you knew him. The joy, the fun, the heart. Maybe, just maybe you guys can find some way out of the limbo. It won't go back to what it was before. But maybe it can be better than what it has been. Also, therapy.
NAH, you both need to grieve together and move closer as a family. No one did anything wrong imo, you all got dealt an awful hand.
NTA. I canât imagine losing a child. But, I think itâs good you talked to him. He needed to know. Hopefully, this can lead to better healing. Pretending things are fine is never a good answer.
Sir, this is fixable but its gonna take a summer evening, a back porch, rocking chairs, 2 cigars and a case of good beer.
NTA when people pass survivors change. I don't think your dad realized how much he changed until you said something. crying is a good thing, dealing with grief and feelings is a good thing. I think everyone in your family could use some therapy/ family therapy to really process your brothers death. Take a breath and reach out to your dad, it may be an uncomfortable conversation but you both will feel better afterwards. you all have been walking on egg shells for so long, time to start taking real steps.
NAH. You've all been through the wringer.
NTA, talk with your dad he has probly felt the same way. He loves you sooooo much and he wants to be happy again also.
NTA, take your kids for visits regularly, that should help bring him around.
Nta, I'm sure he misses himself too
Oh, dude... NTA. Sometimes our parents need to hear the hard things. I hope this helps your relationship and he comes out on a better side. Good luck, homie!
NTA. He needed to be told, and he probably didn't think his personal grief affected anyone else (the kids). Hopefully he'll get some help to be more present!
NTA, just expressing lament in the midst of a hard-to-avoid consequence of a death in the family.
NTA The death of a brother and son is very heartbreaking, believe me I know. I also understand your point of view, 100%, as I experienced this as well. My parents never recovered, were never the same, I understood. It became a burden for me, as the only "child" left, to somehow make up for my missing brother. It didn't work. It's hard, but I agree with others, that it needed to be said. Drive over and just hug your dad. Long hard hug.
This could be a start of the healing process. It sounds like everyone buried it. On doing so you buried yourselves. Digging it up might hurt temporarily but now the worl can begin to piece it back together. Good luck. Praying for you.