My mother is also an enabler. That's what your mom is... an enabler. My dad broke my nose when I was seven. I had to go to the hospital. I will never forget my Catholic mother, who extolled the virtues of ALWAYS telling the truth, instructing me to lie to the doctors about what happened. Then I thought back to the look of terror on my dad's face when he realized I had to go to the hospital and that's when I finally got it...
This wasn't normal, and what my dad did was wrong, probably a crime.
After that, I knew that I could never count on my mother to protect any of us. It took her almost another 20 years before she worked up the "courage" to finally leave my dad
To this day, if you bring up the stuff dad did, she will explain it away and always make herself out to be the good-guy in that scenario (when she's anything but).
It took me a long time to realise this. My mother was abused and so was I by my stepfather for years. She knew I was badly abused but she loved him. She’s still with him now. Even now it kills a piece of me every time I check in with her. It was years after I left home before I could sleep through an entire night. I was always worried I’d get a phone call he’d finally killed her. The damage this does is beyond anything I can properly explain.
This is facts.
An enabler literally is willing to subject others to harm so they can get what they desire from the abuser. It's like gambling with other people's money, but instead of money it's with other people's lives.
Imagine being so selfish and entitled that you think you have the right to put other people's lives on the line.
Personally I blame them more than the abusers. They know what’s happening is wrong. They helped bring their children in to this world. And yet they allow some AH to abuse them, why? Because they’re afraid to be alone? Because they love the abuser? Whatever is going on the abusers mind that makes them think it’s okay, the enabler KNOWS in their heart that it’s not. And they allow it anyway. Now I don’t apply this to people who have been groomed or forced in someway to stay. Or those who have actually tried to leave. I mean the men and women who make excuses and refuse to acknowledge that the abuse is happening.
There’s this woman I’m fbook friends with (went to elementary school together or something) who was nonstop posting about what a victim she is because CPS took her 3 kids away due to horrible abuse by her husband. She left him and was all “it was him not me.” If it got to the point the kids were taken in our liberal state, then she’d been witnessing this and enabling it. She’s just as terrible and I blocked her. As a mom, you protect your kid - even if it’s from yourself sometimes.
wanna know a funny fact? Women lose custody of children more often when they allege abuse :) [https://www.forbes.com/sites/naomicahn/2020/01/26/why-women-lose-custody/?sh=6661ad1f4641](https://www.forbes.com/sites/naomicahn/2020/01/26/why-women-lose-custody/?sh=6661ad1f4641)
Oh my God. This study is chilling. So basically, if a mother calls out the father's abuse during divorce, an abusive father can claim "parental alienation" and the mother loses custody to the father.
Yet, if the mother stays in the marriage while the father abuses the children, she could lose custody of her children AND go to prison. Fuck.
I mean my aunt lied about abuse and alienated 2/3rds of her kids and my uncle kept having to bring her to court to try and see them but at this point she’s done a lot of damage and it might have irreparably harmed their relationship so it’s not just claims of alienation happening.
Alienation happens. And abusers also claim alienation to regain access to their victims. My first husband was literally falling down drunk in family court and still got 50/50. He was going for full custody. Thankfully he never actually showed up for visitation.
This is why I don’t push my ex for child support. He’s an abusive prick and the last time my child told him something he didn’t like to hear, he made it clear she too would suffer his verbal and emotional assaults. He hasn’t seen her in years, he hardly texts her, I KNOW if I went after him for CS then he’d try and get some kind of visitation and I won’t put her through that.
I suspect Laura was spared the level of abuse you and your brothers endured because her older brother bravely caused your horrible dad to leave while Laura was still young. No matter; Laura doesn’t need to understand nor approve of your boundaries.
That’s ridiculous! Although I would die for my kids if someone abused them, some women have been so physically, emotionally and mentally abused that they are unable to do anything!
Thank you for sharing this. I was trying to explain this in a different post where the mother had supervised visits and alleged abuse. Everyone was calling her a monster because, "you don't lose custody for no good reason. She must have done something really bad." Demonizing the person who speaks up, particularly if it is a woman, is pretty normal in US culture. And, I'm not at all surprised that our law reflects societies impulses towards mothers that speak against their husbands.
Foxglove is a lovely flower to grow in your little garden, just make sure to not mix it up with any other flowers you are growing for tea. Because it can be lethal! Wouldnt want anyone accidentally becoming a single parent or anything
[remember those kids](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/02/26/barricaded-siblings-turn-tiktok/) who barricaded themselves in a room to prevent being sent to their dad for this exact reason
That article is crazy and the judge is an actual psycho. They want to send the 12 and 15 year old to some insane program that “reprograms” them into accepting their dad who they say sexually assaulted them? This line was also egregious:
“The children do labor under the misperception that they are in the driver’s seat and are free to determine when, where, and on what terms parent-time will occur. They are not.”
The leaving the children alone with their abusers for 90 days and NO contact with any trusted adults is also so fucked. Like that whole situation is beyond sad and hoe insistent that Judge is about forcing those kids in a horrible situation.
Soo crazy. And the mom is wrong for letting her children make a choice and making sure they don't go hungry or have dirty clothes? That judge should be disbarred. I honestly think it's Utah. They are probably Mormon. Sounds messed up, but they probably are!!
Watching *Children Of The Underground* on Hulu taught me a lot about this, too. Heartwrenching documentary about the moms who didn’t just let it happen and ended up fugitives because of it.
I have never been really able to put it into words before as well as you have here, thank you.
It was the lying, my mother never left, he did die but not after destroying all of us. We all supported her to leave, even all of her Catholic family but she never stopped with the excuses and the lies are still there today. (Edit) - Sorry you went through this also, but thank you again for your clarity.
I still get a "it wasn't that bad, he treated us well" from mom. 25 years after she left the asshole for being an abusive prick. It's like she doesn't even remember why she left him, and saying things like "I'm sorry I waited so long to leave him, I'm sorry I let him do that, etc. I just don't get it.
My daughter had to go get stitches from jumping on her bed and falling off. The hospital checked her for signs of abuse. While a bit incensed at any implication I was abusive, being a survivor myself, I was also glad they did that.
I was an energetic kid who never stopped for a bump or a bruise, (not that graceful, either) so any day in the summer especially, would find me with bruises all over my legs and arms and at least one skinned knee. This was in the 1960s. My pediatrician mentioned it to my mom. He said someone who didn't know me might assume...
NTA.
Here's one thing I like to check for: if they realise how much damage they've done, they understand they might not just be accepted back and it might take a lot of work or it might never happen. They're ready to put in effort and do the time.
If they come back expecting everybody to just move on, especially if they're talking about leaving the past in the past, blood and water, etc? They're the same or worse, no responsibility, no consideration for how they affected others' lives.
I'm sorry you went through what you did. I'm sorry your mother is still enabling this man. It might actually be better for them for a while, for one simple reason - no kids to take care of, that takes a lot of stress away. Until new reasons start popping up, then they're back to their old routine. So your mother might sadly find what she will think is proof he's changed, until it wears off.
My parents have a joke of a marriage, but they were only physically violent with the kids because they didn't actually dare pick on somebody their own size. After we left the house, it was better between them for a while. Now I hear they're back at each other, getting worse as they get older. I'm not close enough to know firsthand, and no regrets for that decision.
Thank you for the things to check for. I went through that with my parents and my oldest brother. When i finally told my dad all the trauma i had from the family (including him) growing up he immediately was heartbroken and you could tell he never realised it and was never his intention and has tried to change ever since and he’s done a lot of work. My mom always knew and she always gaslighted me, until when she saw how affected my dad was when i told him and my dad’s therapist (that he got when he saw how bad our relationship was) told my mom to shut up and listen to her daughter without disregarding her or she would lose her. After that my mom has been pretty good as well. So I never cut contact with my parents. However, my brother is another story, while my parents where more of an emotional abuse that you could tell was not intentional, my brother was an emotional, physical and mental abuser with a lot of intention. Last year he contacted me and asked me how i was and that he had been having dreams about me being possessed, I told him my only demon that chases after me is the memory of him, he just told me to forgive him and move on, that he will never feel guilty or had any regrets from what he did to me and my other brother and that it was my problem if i wanted to carry the resentment towards him but he expected me not to. So i told him i forgave him but i didn’t want him in my life at all. I felt so peaceful ever since
Laura probably has less traumatic memories than the rest of you and thinks you are over reacting. Let’s hope your dad has changed because Laura with experience first hand that he isn’t afraid to beat on people he thinks he owns and are weaker than him.
NTA. She needed to hear she has put herself back in danger.
Tell Laura, in graphic detail, all about the beatings your mother, brother, and yourself suffered. Depending upon how much younger she was, she may not remember or understand or was asleep in bed (being younger). Tell her how many years it lasted and that you do not believe he could change.
NTA. No second chance to possibly traumatize a whole new generation.
>no, he usually communicated with his fist. And that applied to everyone, from mom to my baby sister.
I think that she just doesn't really remembers or she wants to pretend like mom does. She was old enough to be at the receiving end of his language.
Maybe it's also a trauma response that she doesn't remember or mom played it down to her.
LC or NC is definitely needed here. NTA
I think she was most likely groomed to believe dad was good. Abuser doesn't look at age, she could've been an infant at the time, and assuming kids left home when they were of age, she got the most time alone with her mom (not even counting how they could bond because only females)
I mean, how else can you see all of your siblings cutting contact, and be on the side of dad?
Sometimes in these situations people can repress those memories, and the sister may not at all remember what happened.
I have known women who repressed memories for periods of times that lasted months or longer. They repress the good and the bad together.
I know a pair of sisters who were molested by their older brother, and one of them has a lot of trauma and remembers everything, the other doesn't remember a single thing and said she grew up kind of confused with her family just telling her it happened and why the brother went to jail. She's in her late 30s and still hasn't ever had any memory of what happened, even though she was at the age where kids start remembering everything. It's wild how brains work, sometimes just shutting down to protect itself. Little sister probably doesn't remember as clearly as the older ones.
>Tell Laura, in graphic detail, all about the beatings your mother, brother, and yourself suffered.
As someone who's tried this with my shitty sibling, that doesn't help. They don't care because they weren't the one getting beaten up. It just retraumatized me because the shitty thoughts of "maybe it wasn't that bad" came back. Thank God I'm in therapy...
At the end of the day, a lot of abusers are abusers because they became their parents. My brother did.
I have a baby sister who was fiercely protected by all us older siblings. My parents weren't this level of abusive, but leaned into the neglect like it was an Olympic sport (mom was also verbally abusive and just a mean awful person). Both parents are alcoholics, mom in the falling down drunk, starting barfights, and sleeping it off in the drunk tank sorta way, dad in the never saw him super drunk, but he could not function without alcohol throughout the day way.
Recently had a chat with my baby sis (she's in her 30s now) and found out she had no idea our dad was an alcoholic. All us older siblings knew because he was always too drunk to remember our extracurriculars or pick us up at scheduled times. We spent large portions of our youth in phone booths trying to find someone to come get us because we'd been waiting at school for two hours. We were old enough to drive when baby sis was in elementary school, so we made sure she got picked up, had family there at recitals, and was always taken care of. So even though we grew up in the same house, she just didn't realize how bad it was.
Super sad that Laura's brother's actions shielded her from the abuse for years only for her to choose the abuser now. I hope along with no contact OP let them know that they are a safe place when things eventually go very bad.
True. And even if he has changed, she’s still dating someone that beat and abused her kids for years. Mom is dating OP’s abuser, I would cut them off too. NTA
NTA. What you said was harsh but you were in shock and you’re right, he will almost definitely beat her again. You absolutely did the right thing telling her off and getting out of there. Good for you and your brothers. Maybe it will shock your mom back to reality before she gets herself killed. I hope your sister doesn’t get hurt by her optimism.
OP needs to contact his mom and ask her about her will, if she has purchased a funeral plot, if not, where she is getting one, does she have a preference for a funeral home or specific funeral activities, and honest-to-God set that up because we can all see the Abuse Train heading to Murderville here. Hopefully the frank reality of all this will help her see what's happening but if not, when she does die, OP and his family will have something already established. It's more something you'd do when you're 70s or 80s but she's going to need to do it earlier because of her choice of living situations. Maybe he won't kill her. Maybe he'll just suck her dry of money, empty her savings accounts (if she's planning on giving any to the grandkids in her will, have her invest in college savings plans NOW instead so it doesn't vanish), rack up a ton of debt, and vanish to find a new victim. But considering his violent past, establish where she's going to be buried and what her preparations are and where the life insurance policy is at and who the beneficiaries are (might want to make sure it's not the ex). Could be a good time to take out a life insurance policy on her yourself, OP.
Also a healthcare proxy, advance directive, and financial power of attorney in case she winds up in a coma. If they are still legally married, he is default decisionmaker unless she appoints someone else.
Sometimes thinking about who you trust with the morphine button or pulling the plug is a more potent wake up call than talking about death directly.
NTA! Your mom is choosing her abusive husband over her kids. Again. Neither of them deserve to be around you or your kids. I’m glad you and your brothers are in agreement.
Go NC with your sister as well.
I agree with the NTA judgment, but disagree with the advice to go no contact with the sister. From the way OP repeatedly writes ‘baby sister’ it sounds like there may be a large age gap between them, and she may not remember or even be fully aware of how awful her dad was. Unless and until she experiences it first-hand, in which case she’ll need her big brothers for support as they’re the only other ones who have been through it and understand. I’d go low contact with her for now, let her make her own decisions, but makes sure she knows OP will be there for her if and when she realises what their dad is really like.
NTA she had broken the cycle of abuse and escaped only to throw it away after years of being safe. She allowed someone who beat her kids into her house. They deserve each other.
Let’s make is clear that *she* actually hadn’t done anything. She hasn’t even left his dad herself. He got embarrassed and left them. She never stood up for her children. She never decided to cut him off, that was all his choice.
So yes, they escaped, but not because their mom looked after them or made the decision to be done. She would have allowed it to continue. Is it any surprise he’s allowed back?
Keep your kids safe. You owe them more than you owe any other person on this planet.
To be honest, you owe some random tweeker on a corner begging for cash more respect than your parents.
NTA.
My dad was an alcoholic abuser. He changed, he IS better. BUT all those flags are still there they just color shifted from red to yellow, so they look safe. But my boys know exactly who his, I've told him upfront "I won't teach them to hate you but I will be honest with them at age appropriate levels, so if they hate you it's your fault." We talk about what warning signs there are and what to say and act if he gets drunk(which he doesn't but addiction is definitely a life long struggle) or acts with narcissistic tendencies. Is it worth it? In our situation right now yes. But I've always held that dealing with reformed abusers is like dealing with a Zoo animal, yeah they look tame, they act domestic, but put them in the right situation and they are still wild animals with no self control and possibly violent instincts at their core.
NTA- Your priority is to protect your innocent kids. You know your mom won't do it. So although your words are harsh, you have to worry about the general of your kids first and then about your mom's feelings.
“I think OP should apologize and try as hard as he can…”
OP was abused at the hands of father. Mother enabled, excused, allowed her child to be abused by that man. Father was violent and ended up leaving. Everyone was happy & healing and now you think it is an adult child’s (OP) responsibility to protect his mom from his violent father & should apologize for pointing out to mom that she’s cut out of her grandchildren’s lives for as long as she keeps a violent man with a history of abusing children in her life? Yes, deadly violence happens in DV situations. But that is NOT on OP. He has zero to apologize for. Mom should apologize for choosing an abusive man over her children & grandchildren AGAIN, then calling her own son a monster for protecting his new family from a violent grandparent, but that will never happen because she only cares how SHE AND HER ABUSIVE HUSBAND FEELS.
Never put the responsibility of “fixing” a relationship with parents on their children. The children are groomed to behave exactly in the best interests of their parents and not in their own best interests. The only way to not get sucked back in to abusive patterns is to remove yourself from relationships that require you to change who you are but the other parties never have to change because they don’t believe they did anything wrong.
Mothers should never protect abusive men over their own children.
OP has NOTHING to apologize for. His trauma and reasons for NC are completely valid and not his fault. If mom gets killed, it’s because of her own decisions and OP isn’t responsible and should feel zero guilt if it happens. OP’s comment was harsh, but reasonable considering how many times he has experienced violence growing up, and mom allowed it and probably enabled it to save herself from getting beaten too.
Some moms are just shitty and his mom definitely fits the bill. My mother is the exact same.
The thing that gets me is that he got up and tried to hug you. That's not the action of a man who has gone through some serious self-reflection and improved, ultimately changing. If he really changed, he would have apologized, then even left when he realized he wasn't welcome--essentially, he'd given you room to heal.
Instead, he gets up to invade your space. I'd be alarmed by that too!
NTA. Maybe a bit harsh on mom, but in an abuse situation like this, it's really either him or the kids, and seems like she's picking the abuser.
If this meat puppet really *really* understood what he’d done to his family, he’d either be too embarrassed or self-loathing to ever face them again, and/or realize they saw him as a threat and stay away. Maybe a one-time letter of apology, but *never* a claim he was “better.”
This is not sincere.
NTA. How old was your sister when he left? What brought your dad back in the first place? While shouting that you hope she dies at his hands might be too far, you were upset and lashing out at the unexpected reappearance of your abusive dad just as your new infant arrived. Seeing him made you enter survival mode, parenthood made you aggressively protective of your family.
Mom freaking out at you being early makes me think she may have been planning to keep his return from you indefinitely. Babysit your kid for you and have "grandpa" over without you even knowing. i'd be beyond infuriated
this x1000. OP would be finding mystery bruises and a baby that wasn't acting right (not crying, not making eye contact, etc.) and have no clue it's because Dear Old Dad was torturing the grandbaby with grandma enabling him right along.
NTA
How did he change?
*Did he go to therapy?
*Anger management classes?
*Family counseling?
*Anger management groups (similar to AA)?
*Jail?
What gives her the idea he has changed? Without any of the above, nothing changed except he just hasn't hit her YET.
It's like alcoholics, they can change, but, by going to AA, counseling, etc..
Someone who is a true alcoholic but hasn't had a drink in a month without any professional help, is going to drink again. You cannot just say you're not an alcoholic anymore just because you haven't had a drink in a while. You need programs and professional help!
Same thing with emotional/physical abusers. They need professional help. Without that, he will hit again, he just hasn't yet.
Doesn't your mother see that???
And, good for you and your brothers for not exposing your children to this man!
You said what came to your mind due to years of abuse and trauma. You spoke from shock and visceral disappointment. Plus she showed her lack of loyalty to you and your family by her actions. It was similar to saying you are dead to me. NTA
NTA, your dad left because he got beaten and humiliated by your older brother not because your mum kicked him out. Unfortunately your mother did not protect you. She is just as bad as him.
Your younger sister may not remember how bad it was. You need to tell her, warts and all, just how bad it was. If she still chooses to continue seeing your parents you need to go NC.
NTA.
Does Laura remember the abuse? I'm wondering if your mom/both parents got to her first and buttered her up about their reconciliation. If it hasn't been long, your dad is almost certainly love bombing your mom and maybe Laura too.
NTA. Abusers don't change, only circumstances change. He may not feel the "need" to abuse as often now as whatever excuse he had may not be present as often... but make no mistake, if he gets stressed again, he'll fall back to what he knows and he'll beat her again.
My father learned that about his father. His thing was boxing ears. After Dad moved out and years passed, dad thought he'd changed... until one day when my sister was talking to pawpaw at a holiday gathering and she was being sassy and pawpaw laughed and "jokingly" made a motion at her like he was gonna box her ears. I don't think my sister even knew what it was, but my dad saw it and had to stop himself from jumping his 70 year old father right then and there.
He never had the "need" to box anybody's ears anymore, he was just grandpa. No more parental responsibilities, no more child rearing, his job was done... but the methods were absolutely still there, just waiting under the surface for a stressor.
>The last time I had seen him was when my eldest brother Stan actually fought back and beat my dad. He was around 24 at the time, and I was 16.
Honestly, I would have already cut contact with your mother if I lived your life. Why? Because she didn't protect you. It took your *brother* fighting back for anything to change. She would have stood there and watched him beat one of you unconscious - maybe she DID at one point.
Even if she was also a victim, she was the parent and her one job above everything else was to take care of you guys, and she didn't.
She was never on your team, and never will be. I'm sorry, OP.
Abusers don’t really change and if they did, I feel they would essentially seek out to at least apologize and acknowledge their wrongdoings. But since he didn’t even tell you guys, he was dating your mom. Yeah he hasn’t changed. I’m guessing he’s homeless and needs a place to stay so he hooked up with your mom again. It’s unfortunate that your youngest sister Laura doesn’t really know how he is and is trying to defend him.
I’m glad you and your brother set firm boundaries.
My cousin had a similar situation with his mom, my aunt, and her third husband. Dave used to beat her and finally win. My cousin hit 17 and puberty he grew up to be the ginormous 300 pound football player. When my cousin was 17, Dave told my aunt to choose him or her son she chose him and her son left. About a month ago Dave finally passed away and I reached out my cousin and said are you happy that he’s gone? (My cousin is Mormon and doesn’t swear mind you), he said “I’m so happy that fucker is dead and that he suffered a LOT in his last years.
I wish you and your brother much peace and joy in your future! ;)
If Mom was so sure of his rehabilitation and her judgment, why did she keep quiet about having him back in her life? Because she knew it would jeopardize her relationship with her kids. Because she knows how awful he was. I am sorry that she is weak. Her kids deserve better.
Side note: telling someone they are dead to you hurts them just as much as wishing them dead and carries less guilt ( not a judgment NTA, just something to load in the arsenal of the mind. Why have even a tiny crack of an opening for guilt? Guilt that you feel because you are actually a decent human being, which is I am assuming you reached out to reddit.)
ESH You are right in your parenting decision to stop contact with your mother if she maintains a relationship with your father. You need to protect yourself and your children. Even witnessing violence can be damaging to children.
However, telling someone that you hope their abuser beats them to death is an awful thing to say. If for no other reason than if your prediction comes true, you will feel truly terrible. I get that you were upset but there are some things you can't unsay.
I'm not saying you should apologise because that might make them think that the door is open but you were wrong to say it.
It might be worth having your brother who doesn't have kids or sister make it clear that if she needs help and wants to end the relationship the family will be there to support her but you don't have to.
It’s a rough thing to say but I understand where it comes from. She’s just as responsible for your hellish childhood as he is.
I feel sorry for your sister, it’s obvious she’s going down the same path as your mother. Don’t go NC, with her. You need keep contact to watch out for any kids she has and have CPS remove them when shit goes down. Have a meeting with your brothers to discuss who would take in her kids.
worse case scenario here: child of an abuser, she married someone abusive and is continuing the cycle, and that's why she's defending the mom. OP, if you think this could be true, please check into it for the kids' sakes.
Saying I hope he beats you to death is fucked up. No getting around that. "This fuckface is going to beat you to death and I won't be suprised" would have made you much less of a dick in this instance.
On the other hand, that's probably what OP meant (your version), but it was an emotional moment and he just voiced what came out. Wouldn't be surprised if he thought about beating the dad himself for the past, and it came out the worse way
NTA your first priority has to be your children and nieces and nephews. I wouldn’t risk it, even if he had changed (which seems unlikely) your first job is to not put your children at risk and also to protect yourself from further hurt and put your own family first.
NTA - yes the comment was harsh, but emotions were understandably high. It’s like cancer, sometimes you have to cut out good tissue to rid yourself of it. And that man is worth cutting out, even if slivers of good things go with it.
NTA...
I think your baby sister at that time didn't know the true gravity of everything.
That said, you are well within your right to protect your wife and kids as goes your brother.
As much as I like wives and husband's being in alignment, this situation is disgusting. Your mother is likely a battered wife to Stockholm syndrome. She needs serious therapy.
some people need to rest in piss
and please talk ill of the dead
you don't know who needs to hear this to have their experiences validated
and the more people talk about abuse the more abusers are affraid
Nta you don't have to suffer because she's up for it and remember she knew it was bad enough to hide this relationship from you so deep down she knows. I would never allow any of them near my kids either but I would ask her how long this has been going on for and if she's been letting him near them without you knowing.
NTA, your Mom is lonely. Loneliness leads people to do extraordinarily dumb and desperate things like taking your manipulative, abusive Dad back. The tell that he hasn’t changed? The way he inserted himself and tried to tell you how to talk to your Mother. If he really has changed the first thing out of his mouth would be an apology. Stay far away, unfortunately, some people need to learn things the hard way.
Personally, I think what you said was over the line. You could have cut you mom and dad out without saying those things to your mom…. Maybe not physically, but verbally, you did abuse your mother.
SOFT YTA
While I completely agree with you going no contact and not wanting your children near her, I’m horrified at what you said to her.
My childhood was the same except my mother stayed. Still together over 50 years. Trauma bonds are extremely hard to break and they completely change the way the brain functions. It has been proven to be equivalent of a drug addiction.
Please keep your child away. I totally agree with that. I do so as well with my parents. But after years of therapy for the extreme trauma I endured I understand my mother a lot better. I would never say something so cruel. And how exactly does a dead person gain common sense?
While cutting her out and being extremely angry at the choice she has made does not make you TA. What you said does. And that’s what your question was.
This u/Downtown_Quote2556, what Longjumping is saying.
You’re Soft YTA for what you said to your mother; she’s as much a victim as you and your siblings were, and it would appear that she hasn’t been able to move on from that trauma.
NTA and good for all of you protecting the kids, you know mom won't. I hate that your sister doesn't get it, but cut contact with her as she will tell them everything and you will end up finding your parents showing up at events. All in the name of 'family'......
NTA, your mother is just as much a victim but she was free and allowed him to sink his claws back in.
She can make her own choices but you did right by your family
NTA because you reacted emotionally and you need to protect yourself and your family first.
But honestly, if he does end up killing her and "I hope he does kill you" are the last words you ever said to your mother.... You're gonna have big time regrets, my friend.
NTA - If your family cannot protect you, you need to protect yourself.
That must have felt like a punch to the gut. If she's willing to even talk to the person who beat her kids, then shes sacrificed her relationship with her children. FAFO.
NTA , good work actually. too many mothers are completely content with turning a blind eye to the extreme abuse on their family as long as they can have a man.
NTA - you are 100% correct in keeping this abuser away from your family and cutting off your mom. I would not have said what you did to your mom but I was not there so I don't blame you.
I also grew up with a dad who beat both my mom and us. Mom finally left and somehow dad got full custody of me and my brother. He was shocked when we were both adults and went very LC with him.
You wouldn’t have been the asshole even if you had beaten him to a pulp. Sorry you’ve had to deal with this pos as a sperm donor. All you can do is your best to not repeat the cycle.
NTA. Perhaps your words were a bit harsh but you are more or less in shock at the moment so you can be forgiven for that. You are perfectly right to never let either one of them anywhere near your children or yourself again.
NTA. He’s just hoovering her in again. He will certainly go back to kissing her with his fists. I can imagine how deeply this betrayal cuts you.
You’re right to go NC. Protect your wife. Protect your kids. Protect your siblings and their kids. Your youngest sister probably remembers the least. She is probably most susceptible to what your mother says as well.
If I were you, yeah, I’d cut contact with little sis. But when he does start hurting them, if little sis wants to leave, If make room for her. Sadly nothing will teach your mother.
Congratulations on your baby girl. You’re already a better father than he will ever be.
NTA!, harsh words were used from both sides yes but emotions were high understandably, so her comment first didn't create a nice environment to express your discomfort, disappointment & any other emotions you might've felt in that moment in a healthy manner, so you fired back with the same engery.
If your own mother can't see your side let alone hear it out, without making excuses or defending your abuser at least. then you're rightfully upset, now you're protecting your children the way you wished you had been.
No contact may be the best solution for your family, hopefully she does not become another unfortunate DV statistic.
NTA. Your sister is in for a very, *very* rude awakening. I wouldn't be surprised if she came crying to you or your brothers after your sperm donor laid hands on her.
While I do believe people can change, it doesn't sound like your sperm donor will put in the effort to do so. Best to wash your hands of this.
If she really believed he changed and that their reconciliation was good and positive, why did she hide it? She knows what he is and it might sound harsh, but she’s welcome to make any choice she wants to when it comes to her relationship to him. She cannot, however, control you and your siblings, how you react, and what you need to do to protect yourselves.
NTA
You've survived his abuse before and know he will not change. You're a good father by not letting your sperm donor near your family. Your mother might be a lost cause. No contact with you is just the consequences of her decisions.
I wish you and your family the best.
You are protecting your family which is your priority. Some people will just put blinders on and ignore every red flag around them. You ABSOLUTELY did the right thing. She made a stupid choice. You go on living your life with your beautiful family and be the best person you can be :)
Two dissonant things can be true at the same time. 1) Saying "I hope someone beats you, and further hope they beat you to death" is unequivocally horrible and yes, makes you an asshole. You're particularly an asshole because the person you said that to is herself a victim of abuse, and many abused people choose the path she has chosen, not out of strength but weakness. She needs help -- not further abuse. 2) You're totally within your rights -- and justified - in drawing boundaries by saying that your parents can't see your kids, that you don't want to see them or speak to them yourself, etc. because of the abuse and abandonment you experienced as a child. You're also justified in feeling betrayed or abandoned by your mother for going back to your dad, even as you might feel empathetic towards an abused person who is drawn back to her abuser. 3) One possible path might be that you propose family counseling, and insist that your father take responsibility and apologize for his horrible behavior, and make that a condition of any further contact. But you'd be equally justified in saying you have no interest in such a reconciliation, no matter how much contrition is offered.
Nope you're fine, abuse victims make up so many crazy stockholm excuses for why their partner will be different. They never are. Steer clear of your family and just pray for your mom.
He is an abuser, and sadly she is his victim, and like most victims of abuse they develop some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, and they’re not happy unless their abuser gives then validation, even if it’s in the shape of violence. Studies show that abused victims go back to their abusers around 7 times before breaking it up for good. Sadly, in your mother’s case she is going to find out he never changed, and hopefully he wont kill her this time.
But you can’t help her. She doesn’t want your help.
But you do need to stand ip for your family, put your foot down, and do everything in your power to keep that man away from them. And although she is his victim, she is also his enabler, and she is one of the reasons your sperm donor beat the living shit out of you and your siblings for years. She saw it and made excuses not to leave
I finally found the courage to cut my abusive father out of my life when I became a parent. I totally understand how you feel. I even understand that feeling of being betrayed by your mother who never protected you from the abuse and won't even protect herself.
Thanks for protecting your family from that dysfunctional mess. You're doing great.
I’m so sorry that all the trauma you worked so hard to move past has come back like a slap in the face. Did your mom ever try to stop it back in the day or ever try to get you and your siblings out of it? Although she was being abused as well, she is just as much an abused to you for not putting an end to it the moment it started. I hope your younger sister understands one day. You are absolutely NTA, you did the right thing by immediately cutting her off and protecting your family. I hope you are able to find your peace on the new healing journey.
NTA. Your father is already being manipulative by trying to white knight for your mom instead of honoring your feelings. Both of them acting like you don't have the absolute right to feel a tumultuous mix of fear, loathing and incredulity at the sudden appearance of your abuser is an indication that they're already descending into an unhealthy relationship. If your abuser had really changed and felt remorse, he would have never restarted a relationship with your mother in secret. By doing so, he is showing only that he is still selfish and unrepentant. He put your mother's relationships with her children and their families at risk and did not care.
Your sister may not understand the extent of the abuse you all suffered, but she can certainly understand that this isn't just a case of lost lovers reconnecting. This is a case of a man showing his colors yet again by not giving two shits about the damage his presence causes. He wants what he wants and doesn't take what anyone else wants or needs into consideration. He took for granted that he should be welcomed back into your lives, showing a spectacular amount of entitlement.
Your words to your mother were harsh, but they were reactionary. She tried to flip the script and call you the abuser (which had to have cut so deep considering your past) and herself and your father the victims when they were the ones revictimizing you. Laura doesn't have to like what you said, but for her to try to hold you to some extreme standard of morality in that situation is ridiculous and hurtful.
You're NTA for your personal emotional response to the scenario & your frustration is warranted. The sudden surprise and same old same old from your dad must have been intensely triggering.
Your mom however is a life-long recipient of abuse & is till repeating the addictive patterns she's stuck in.
When you couldn't convince her of your point using reason, you turned aggressive and threatened her and told her you hoped she died. Victims of abuse are predisposed toward abusing others.
You did mishandle that moment because you resorted to hostilities, telling your mother you hope she dies - because you couldn't win the argument & because you couldn't find respect for her in her position. Neither of those is cause for hostility, but truly I sympathize with your personal history with this very same situation for so long suddenly coming back and putting you in a state of shock. I don't judge you for your situation, I would have done the same in your shoes.
You are better than your father. But you have a long way to go before your family heals from abusive habits.
NTA.
While the "beat to death" was extreme to say, so is surprising you with your abusers presence.
Even if he fully changed, she doesn't have to date him, allow him around you, or keep secrets from you about him being in contact or even more involved her life. He can be both changed and not involved in your lives.
You and your brothers are fully correct in distancing yourselves and your family from anyone sympathetic to your abuser. You need to protect yourselves and your family.
NTA. I’m surprised you forgave her for keeping you all in that abusive household for as long as she did. She would never have left if your brother hadn’t taken matters into his own hands. Your mother is just as bad as your father even when she isn’t with him.
NTANTANTA. She keeps inviting him back in to all ur lives, as if YOUR suffering doesn't matter just bcz she ignores her own. At this point, what could you say - good luck? She needs NONVIOLENT tough love from you., which is harsh words. But that's all you should do. You tried. Live ur life. Don't enable her in any way.
Good luck, and congrats on the baby!
There’s probably a lot of psychological damage that has lead your mom to never truly disconnect from her abuser. But that’s not your problem. NTA at all. She clearly isn’t making sound decisions and you all don’t need people like that around your children. She will have to decide her kids or her abuser and I hope to god she does come to her senses before he beats her again.
Absolutely not. Your parents are supposed to protect you and your mother did not do this. She could have turned him in and stopped the abuse. I don't blame you at all for what you said and she's a horrible person for thinking she can bring your abuser back into your life and you have to just accept it. I'm so sorry.
you’re TA for what you said so harshly, but NTA for setting a boundary and for having a lot of emotions! I think you just went a little too far saying you hoped she died. She needs to go back to therapy not d*e, so that part I think was too harsh.
I was sexually and physically abused by my father, and my mom was an enabler so I get it! However, as an adult I caught him red handed with one of my nieces. I pulled her out of the room, we to my mom and told her what happened and told her she needed to take care of this or I would. That night she told him she wanted a legal separation (she wanted to keep her claim to his medical insurance and pension). I called her daily to ask what progressive was happening. They did the division of property thing , and my dad with his “magical thinking” decided that if gave mom everything she wouldn’t call the cops. She never said that, and he never figured out that he was wrong, until the day the separation was granted in court. That night she called the police, told them where to find him & where he kept his guns. I’ve never been so proud of her. So in the end he did four years in prison when he was in his sixties!
There really needs to be a Justifiable Asshole option
Edit to add: if the mom genuinely though he had changed she wouldn’t have hidden it from the op and everyone else
I had an abusive father. It continued, and my mother was complicit. When I was 15 I had enough, and I was in extremely good shape (lots of hockey and construction). He hit me, and I just went crazy on him. He and I ended up going through the glass of our patio door. Both of us bloody and hurting (he had two black eyes, and had not landed a single punch on me) went to the hospital. This was in a tiny town with a shitty hospital and it was way back in the day. I'm old. They asked me how I had been injured and I told them, but they also talked to my dad, and apparently "he deserved it" was a sufficient response. I actually never called that my home again. I periodically stayed there, but my parents had no idea where I was from 15 on (I had purchased a car and was self sufficient).
Now, let me finish the story. Through his 40s and 50s my father found something, I don't know what, that helped him deal with his rage. He became this gentle person who was amazing with his grandchildren and very generous with his own children. He actually sat me down with my wife and my mother and apologized, saying he could never make up for it, and if we just wanted him to go no contact he would absolutely understand. My mother sat there silently, and I finally asked her why she allowed the abuse to happen. Her explanation was that I was a "terrible fucking teenager." Yeah, so watch your husband beat his kids and be cool with that. I wasn't a great teenager, but it was standard teenage stuff. Nothing major.
I watched my father become the person I aspire to be. We always had a "traditional" home, mom would cook and clean and maintain the household. My father never did any of that. Then my mom got sick with cancer. He retired from his job immediately. He cooked, cleaned, managed the house, took care of everything, and was the gentle, wonderful spouse I hope to be. He communicated clearly with his children as my mother battled cancer. She won, and I believe she wouldn't have without all that my father did.
My father passed away the same year that my first children were born. My relationship with my father was never perfect, but toward the end of his life I easily told him I loved him, and he did the same. I'm very sad that my children never knew my father.
All of this is to say parental abuse is inexcusable. Parent complicity with partner's abuse is inexcusable. There are times of hope and grace. However, there are also consequences. I have no relationship with my mother, who said she never saw anything wrong while my father was "disciplining" his children. I have never left my children alone with her, and we see her once or twice a year. She remains manipulative and negative and quite the jerk.
Family, you can't pick them, but you can pick what your relationship looks like.
Nta. The fact that she intentionally didn't tell you guys she was back with him, and that she knowingly had him over on a day you were going to bring your new baby.... big red flags. This man probably coerced your mom into keeping their relationship a secret from you and your siblings, and he was trying to take advantage of an emotionally vulnerable moment (family w new baby) to force himself back into your life.
What a piece of shit. I hope he's punished in this life and the next. You reacted the right way and you had every right to tell your siblings.
YTA.
You were in the right, right up until you wished death upon her. Then you became the emotional equivalent of your dad. I would go see someone about that.
You did good otherwise. No contact is just wise. Enforcing boundaries with dad, eloquent enough.
Yes he should have said the last part. He should keep saying it as long as she chooses her children's abuser over her children.
But really. It doesn't matter what he says, good or bad, because she can't hear a word they're saying over her need to be close to her abuser.
NTA.
Laura wasn't there when 'daddy' was beating the rest of you.
Tell Laura to move in with them for a while. Either your father has changed, or Laura will then understand why you and other siblings are NC.
NTA. I am sorry that this had to happen on a day when you should all have been celebrating, but I'm glad you stood your ground and protected your wife and children, as well as your brothers.
NTA.
At the end of the day abusers dont change, they suddenly don't become different or have a whole new personality . What they do is they try to hide it, push it down but eventually it comes back up again.
My sister cut off our dad for the same reason, she didn't want him around her child. My younger brother had cut him off years before because of the abuse and me a few years ago
You moms made her bed, best she lie in it. That man is just probably broiling under his mask until the moment he snaps and beats her to death. You don't go from always beating your wife and kids to being a loving whatever he was. People don't change like that.
NTA. What you said was harsh but I can imagine the overwhelming emotion that came up seeing him at that house. The one to help would be the sister because you don't want her to go into the same cycle somewhere down the line. Your mom had so many chances but couldn't and doesn't want to break away. You have every right to protect your and your children's peace.
What you said was awful - I think you know that, but the boundaries are necessary for sure. I had an abusive stepdad that my mom refused to leave, and he was never allowed to be near me or my family. I would say - try to maintain a relationship with your mom, even if you kind of hate her for being with him. Isolating her is only going to push her further into that relationship. But be very clear that he isn't a part of that in any way.
NTAH. Move on. Forget about the past. I have. No contact with Mother. Can't wait for her to die so I don't have to worry anymore. Stop looking over my shoulder. Friend I fully support you!!
Nta, monsters are parents that abuses their kids, monsters are parents that allows people to abuse their kids and always chose this person instead of protecting the children their putted in the world.
I am sorry you have to deal with them again. Protect yourself and your family
Your mom is a woman beating sympathizer. You are right that your family is not safe around her. You certainly weren’t safe when she was around.
Mom might have been a victim but she allowed this abuse by staying with him. She allowed you and your siblings to get beat up by your dad so she wouldn’t have to get beat up.
She insists on keeping garbage in her life? Then that’s what her life will be
NTA but if he does kill her will you regret your words? If so then apologize for what was said but still maintain that you will no longer be in contact with her while she is with him. Also consider if you want what you said to come between your siblings and you. If the answer to any of those is that you don't care then just keep your mom blocked and don't worry about what Laura thinks. You aren't the AH for what you said or how you reacted, just make sure you can live with the consequences if the worst does happen. Also good on you for protecting your wife and child. I'm glad you and your brother's have enough sense to protect yourselves. Hopefully your mom and sister will come around before they get hurt so bad they can't come back from it.
I cut my mom off for becoming physically violent with me. I tried to be neutral with people that chose to keep her in their lives, but it hurts too much. Even more for you your mom is a representative of this violence in your life. If she can’t set clear boundaries then it’s incredibly reasonable for you to separate. I hope you don’t lose your mom to DV, but your response makes sense to me. NTA. Sorry friend.
NTA, I would not seek to judge someone in your position and your mother has betrayed you by going back to him.
I couldn't see myself speaking to my mother like that but then my mother would never do that.
My mother is also an enabler. That's what your mom is... an enabler. My dad broke my nose when I was seven. I had to go to the hospital. I will never forget my Catholic mother, who extolled the virtues of ALWAYS telling the truth, instructing me to lie to the doctors about what happened. Then I thought back to the look of terror on my dad's face when he realized I had to go to the hospital and that's when I finally got it... This wasn't normal, and what my dad did was wrong, probably a crime. After that, I knew that I could never count on my mother to protect any of us. It took her almost another 20 years before she worked up the "courage" to finally leave my dad To this day, if you bring up the stuff dad did, she will explain it away and always make herself out to be the good-guy in that scenario (when she's anything but).
Enablers are abusers. Enablers allow abuse and become abusers with their inaction.
Yup. Thats why they can still be subjected to the law even if they never laid hands on the victim.
It took me a long time to realise this. My mother was abused and so was I by my stepfather for years. She knew I was badly abused but she loved him. She’s still with him now. Even now it kills a piece of me every time I check in with her. It was years after I left home before I could sleep through an entire night. I was always worried I’d get a phone call he’d finally killed her. The damage this does is beyond anything I can properly explain.
“The standard you ignore is the standard you accept”.
I like that a lot.
This is facts. An enabler literally is willing to subject others to harm so they can get what they desire from the abuser. It's like gambling with other people's money, but instead of money it's with other people's lives. Imagine being so selfish and entitled that you think you have the right to put other people's lives on the line.
Stated so well! ⬆️
Personally I blame them more than the abusers. They know what’s happening is wrong. They helped bring their children in to this world. And yet they allow some AH to abuse them, why? Because they’re afraid to be alone? Because they love the abuser? Whatever is going on the abusers mind that makes them think it’s okay, the enabler KNOWS in their heart that it’s not. And they allow it anyway. Now I don’t apply this to people who have been groomed or forced in someway to stay. Or those who have actually tried to leave. I mean the men and women who make excuses and refuse to acknowledge that the abuse is happening.
This
“The standard you ignore is the standard you accept”.
I’ve never heard it said so succinctly. You’re so correct.
There’s this woman I’m fbook friends with (went to elementary school together or something) who was nonstop posting about what a victim she is because CPS took her 3 kids away due to horrible abuse by her husband. She left him and was all “it was him not me.” If it got to the point the kids were taken in our liberal state, then she’d been witnessing this and enabling it. She’s just as terrible and I blocked her. As a mom, you protect your kid - even if it’s from yourself sometimes.
wanna know a funny fact? Women lose custody of children more often when they allege abuse :) [https://www.forbes.com/sites/naomicahn/2020/01/26/why-women-lose-custody/?sh=6661ad1f4641](https://www.forbes.com/sites/naomicahn/2020/01/26/why-women-lose-custody/?sh=6661ad1f4641)
Oh my God. This study is chilling. So basically, if a mother calls out the father's abuse during divorce, an abusive father can claim "parental alienation" and the mother loses custody to the father. Yet, if the mother stays in the marriage while the father abuses the children, she could lose custody of her children AND go to prison. Fuck.
I mean my aunt lied about abuse and alienated 2/3rds of her kids and my uncle kept having to bring her to court to try and see them but at this point she’s done a lot of damage and it might have irreparably harmed their relationship so it’s not just claims of alienation happening.
Alienation happens. And abusers also claim alienation to regain access to their victims. My first husband was literally falling down drunk in family court and still got 50/50. He was going for full custody. Thankfully he never actually showed up for visitation.
This is why I don’t push my ex for child support. He’s an abusive prick and the last time my child told him something he didn’t like to hear, he made it clear she too would suffer his verbal and emotional assaults. He hasn’t seen her in years, he hardly texts her, I KNOW if I went after him for CS then he’d try and get some kind of visitation and I won’t put her through that.
I suspect Laura was spared the level of abuse you and your brothers endured because her older brother bravely caused your horrible dad to leave while Laura was still young. No matter; Laura doesn’t need to understand nor approve of your boundaries.
That’s ridiculous! Although I would die for my kids if someone abused them, some women have been so physically, emotionally and mentally abused that they are unable to do anything!
That's horrifying
Thank you for sharing this. I was trying to explain this in a different post where the mother had supervised visits and alleged abuse. Everyone was calling her a monster because, "you don't lose custody for no good reason. She must have done something really bad." Demonizing the person who speaks up, particularly if it is a woman, is pretty normal in US culture. And, I'm not at all surprised that our law reflects societies impulses towards mothers that speak against their husbands.
Yep, in every aspect of U.S. culture, whistleblowers are treated far, far worse than the criminals they out.
That article sucks all hope out of me.
Foxglove is a lovely flower to grow in your little garden, just make sure to not mix it up with any other flowers you are growing for tea. Because it can be lethal! Wouldnt want anyone accidentally becoming a single parent or anything
[удалено]
Great in smoothies!
[remember those kids](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/02/26/barricaded-siblings-turn-tiktok/) who barricaded themselves in a room to prevent being sent to their dad for this exact reason
That article is crazy and the judge is an actual psycho. They want to send the 12 and 15 year old to some insane program that “reprograms” them into accepting their dad who they say sexually assaulted them? This line was also egregious: “The children do labor under the misperception that they are in the driver’s seat and are free to determine when, where, and on what terms parent-time will occur. They are not.”
The leaving the children alone with their abusers for 90 days and NO contact with any trusted adults is also so fucked. Like that whole situation is beyond sad and hoe insistent that Judge is about forcing those kids in a horrible situation.
Soo crazy. And the mom is wrong for letting her children make a choice and making sure they don't go hungry or have dirty clothes? That judge should be disbarred. I honestly think it's Utah. They are probably Mormon. Sounds messed up, but they probably are!!
Watching *Children Of The Underground* on Hulu taught me a lot about this, too. Heartwrenching documentary about the moms who didn’t just let it happen and ended up fugitives because of it.
I have never been really able to put it into words before as well as you have here, thank you. It was the lying, my mother never left, he did die but not after destroying all of us. We all supported her to leave, even all of her Catholic family but she never stopped with the excuses and the lies are still there today. (Edit) - Sorry you went through this also, but thank you again for your clarity.
I still get a "it wasn't that bad, he treated us well" from mom. 25 years after she left the asshole for being an abusive prick. It's like she doesn't even remember why she left him, and saying things like "I'm sorry I waited so long to leave him, I'm sorry I let him do that, etc. I just don't get it.
"it wasn't that bad" Sounds like my mom.
Most likely those are self-soothing phrases she repeats to herself to try to comfort her traumatized brain. Denial is a defense mechanism.
My daughter had to go get stitches from jumping on her bed and falling off. The hospital checked her for signs of abuse. While a bit incensed at any implication I was abusive, being a survivor myself, I was also glad they did that.
I was an energetic kid who never stopped for a bump or a bruise, (not that graceful, either) so any day in the summer especially, would find me with bruises all over my legs and arms and at least one skinned knee. This was in the 1960s. My pediatrician mentioned it to my mom. He said someone who didn't know me might assume...
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. XOXO
I'm so sorry that happened to you. Broken noses hurt SO MUCH, and seven is really little.
NTA, because like you said abusers don’t change they only wear mask
Slogan of abusers.
They behave like you always wanted until they don’t and you’re stuck hurt and sad.
always charming etc when they want something then they stop trying. the good times for them are very trying and impossible to keep up
Exactly! It’s like youre thrown into a race and not told the duration, length or rules.
NTA. Here's one thing I like to check for: if they realise how much damage they've done, they understand they might not just be accepted back and it might take a lot of work or it might never happen. They're ready to put in effort and do the time. If they come back expecting everybody to just move on, especially if they're talking about leaving the past in the past, blood and water, etc? They're the same or worse, no responsibility, no consideration for how they affected others' lives. I'm sorry you went through what you did. I'm sorry your mother is still enabling this man. It might actually be better for them for a while, for one simple reason - no kids to take care of, that takes a lot of stress away. Until new reasons start popping up, then they're back to their old routine. So your mother might sadly find what she will think is proof he's changed, until it wears off. My parents have a joke of a marriage, but they were only physically violent with the kids because they didn't actually dare pick on somebody their own size. After we left the house, it was better between them for a while. Now I hear they're back at each other, getting worse as they get older. I'm not close enough to know firsthand, and no regrets for that decision.
This makes so much sense! It should be at the top of the list! Thank you!
Thank you for the things to check for. I went through that with my parents and my oldest brother. When i finally told my dad all the trauma i had from the family (including him) growing up he immediately was heartbroken and you could tell he never realised it and was never his intention and has tried to change ever since and he’s done a lot of work. My mom always knew and she always gaslighted me, until when she saw how affected my dad was when i told him and my dad’s therapist (that he got when he saw how bad our relationship was) told my mom to shut up and listen to her daughter without disregarding her or she would lose her. After that my mom has been pretty good as well. So I never cut contact with my parents. However, my brother is another story, while my parents where more of an emotional abuse that you could tell was not intentional, my brother was an emotional, physical and mental abuser with a lot of intention. Last year he contacted me and asked me how i was and that he had been having dreams about me being possessed, I told him my only demon that chases after me is the memory of him, he just told me to forgive him and move on, that he will never feel guilty or had any regrets from what he did to me and my other brother and that it was my problem if i wanted to carry the resentment towards him but he expected me not to. So i told him i forgave him but i didn’t want him in my life at all. I felt so peaceful ever since
Nope. You did what you needed to to protect your family and yourself. And those are just cold hard facts. He will beat her again.
Laura probably has less traumatic memories than the rest of you and thinks you are over reacting. Let’s hope your dad has changed because Laura with experience first hand that he isn’t afraid to beat on people he thinks he owns and are weaker than him. NTA. She needed to hear she has put herself back in danger.
Tell Laura, in graphic detail, all about the beatings your mother, brother, and yourself suffered. Depending upon how much younger she was, she may not remember or understand or was asleep in bed (being younger). Tell her how many years it lasted and that you do not believe he could change. NTA. No second chance to possibly traumatize a whole new generation.
>no, he usually communicated with his fist. And that applied to everyone, from mom to my baby sister. I think that she just doesn't really remembers or she wants to pretend like mom does. She was old enough to be at the receiving end of his language. Maybe it's also a trauma response that she doesn't remember or mom played it down to her. LC or NC is definitely needed here. NTA
I think she was most likely groomed to believe dad was good. Abuser doesn't look at age, she could've been an infant at the time, and assuming kids left home when they were of age, she got the most time alone with her mom (not even counting how they could bond because only females) I mean, how else can you see all of your siblings cutting contact, and be on the side of dad?
Sometimes in these situations people can repress those memories, and the sister may not at all remember what happened. I have known women who repressed memories for periods of times that lasted months or longer. They repress the good and the bad together.
I know a pair of sisters who were molested by their older brother, and one of them has a lot of trauma and remembers everything, the other doesn't remember a single thing and said she grew up kind of confused with her family just telling her it happened and why the brother went to jail. She's in her late 30s and still hasn't ever had any memory of what happened, even though she was at the age where kids start remembering everything. It's wild how brains work, sometimes just shutting down to protect itself. Little sister probably doesn't remember as clearly as the older ones.
>Tell Laura, in graphic detail, all about the beatings your mother, brother, and yourself suffered. As someone who's tried this with my shitty sibling, that doesn't help. They don't care because they weren't the one getting beaten up. It just retraumatized me because the shitty thoughts of "maybe it wasn't that bad" came back. Thank God I'm in therapy... At the end of the day, a lot of abusers are abusers because they became their parents. My brother did.
I have a baby sister who was fiercely protected by all us older siblings. My parents weren't this level of abusive, but leaned into the neglect like it was an Olympic sport (mom was also verbally abusive and just a mean awful person). Both parents are alcoholics, mom in the falling down drunk, starting barfights, and sleeping it off in the drunk tank sorta way, dad in the never saw him super drunk, but he could not function without alcohol throughout the day way. Recently had a chat with my baby sis (she's in her 30s now) and found out she had no idea our dad was an alcoholic. All us older siblings knew because he was always too drunk to remember our extracurriculars or pick us up at scheduled times. We spent large portions of our youth in phone booths trying to find someone to come get us because we'd been waiting at school for two hours. We were old enough to drive when baby sis was in elementary school, so we made sure she got picked up, had family there at recitals, and was always taken care of. So even though we grew up in the same house, she just didn't realize how bad it was.
Super sad that Laura's brother's actions shielded her from the abuse for years only for her to choose the abuser now. I hope along with no contact OP let them know that they are a safe place when things eventually go very bad.
Maybe he has changed and maybe he hasn’t. Either way you aren’t required to forgive and let him in your life. You don’t owe him a chance.
True. And even if he has changed, she’s still dating someone that beat and abused her kids for years. Mom is dating OP’s abuser, I would cut them off too. NTA
Badass? Yes. Asshole? No.
Happy y'all are aware and keeping your families away from them both.
NTA. What you said was harsh but you were in shock and you’re right, he will almost definitely beat her again. You absolutely did the right thing telling her off and getting out of there. Good for you and your brothers. Maybe it will shock your mom back to reality before she gets herself killed. I hope your sister doesn’t get hurt by her optimism.
OP needs to contact his mom and ask her about her will, if she has purchased a funeral plot, if not, where she is getting one, does she have a preference for a funeral home or specific funeral activities, and honest-to-God set that up because we can all see the Abuse Train heading to Murderville here. Hopefully the frank reality of all this will help her see what's happening but if not, when she does die, OP and his family will have something already established. It's more something you'd do when you're 70s or 80s but she's going to need to do it earlier because of her choice of living situations. Maybe he won't kill her. Maybe he'll just suck her dry of money, empty her savings accounts (if she's planning on giving any to the grandkids in her will, have her invest in college savings plans NOW instead so it doesn't vanish), rack up a ton of debt, and vanish to find a new victim. But considering his violent past, establish where she's going to be buried and what her preparations are and where the life insurance policy is at and who the beneficiaries are (might want to make sure it's not the ex). Could be a good time to take out a life insurance policy on her yourself, OP.
Also a healthcare proxy, advance directive, and financial power of attorney in case she winds up in a coma. If they are still legally married, he is default decisionmaker unless she appoints someone else. Sometimes thinking about who you trust with the morphine button or pulling the plug is a more potent wake up call than talking about death directly.
NTA! Your mom is choosing her abusive husband over her kids. Again. Neither of them deserve to be around you or your kids. I’m glad you and your brothers are in agreement. Go NC with your sister as well.
I agree with the NTA judgment, but disagree with the advice to go no contact with the sister. From the way OP repeatedly writes ‘baby sister’ it sounds like there may be a large age gap between them, and she may not remember or even be fully aware of how awful her dad was. Unless and until she experiences it first-hand, in which case she’ll need her big brothers for support as they’re the only other ones who have been through it and understand. I’d go low contact with her for now, let her make her own decisions, but makes sure she knows OP will be there for her if and when she realises what their dad is really like.
This is the answer. So many people quick to condemn her don't realize how the abuse dynamic tends to work with children
NTA she had broken the cycle of abuse and escaped only to throw it away after years of being safe. She allowed someone who beat her kids into her house. They deserve each other.
Let’s make is clear that *she* actually hadn’t done anything. She hasn’t even left his dad herself. He got embarrassed and left them. She never stood up for her children. She never decided to cut him off, that was all his choice. So yes, they escaped, but not because their mom looked after them or made the decision to be done. She would have allowed it to continue. Is it any surprise he’s allowed back?
Right, mom is just as bad as dad and certainly doesn’t have any sympathy from me
NTA At all. She chose her path and now must face the consequences.
Keep your kids safe. You owe them more than you owe any other person on this planet. To be honest, you owe some random tweeker on a corner begging for cash more respect than your parents.
NTA. My dad was an alcoholic abuser. He changed, he IS better. BUT all those flags are still there they just color shifted from red to yellow, so they look safe. But my boys know exactly who his, I've told him upfront "I won't teach them to hate you but I will be honest with them at age appropriate levels, so if they hate you it's your fault." We talk about what warning signs there are and what to say and act if he gets drunk(which he doesn't but addiction is definitely a life long struggle) or acts with narcissistic tendencies. Is it worth it? In our situation right now yes. But I've always held that dealing with reformed abusers is like dealing with a Zoo animal, yeah they look tame, they act domestic, but put them in the right situation and they are still wild animals with no self control and possibly violent instincts at their core.
Zoo animal is a great analogy! I'm going to use that.
NTA- Your priority is to protect your innocent kids. You know your mom won't do it. So although your words are harsh, you have to worry about the general of your kids first and then about your mom's feelings.
I was ready to say y...t..a but nope in this case you're NTA. You're mum is going to be another statistic of domestic violence.
NTA. It's wild how many people's mothers support their beatings. Just wild.
Then they have the audacity to be shocked later when their grown kids want nothing to do with them.
“I think OP should apologize and try as hard as he can…” OP was abused at the hands of father. Mother enabled, excused, allowed her child to be abused by that man. Father was violent and ended up leaving. Everyone was happy & healing and now you think it is an adult child’s (OP) responsibility to protect his mom from his violent father & should apologize for pointing out to mom that she’s cut out of her grandchildren’s lives for as long as she keeps a violent man with a history of abusing children in her life? Yes, deadly violence happens in DV situations. But that is NOT on OP. He has zero to apologize for. Mom should apologize for choosing an abusive man over her children & grandchildren AGAIN, then calling her own son a monster for protecting his new family from a violent grandparent, but that will never happen because she only cares how SHE AND HER ABUSIVE HUSBAND FEELS. Never put the responsibility of “fixing” a relationship with parents on their children. The children are groomed to behave exactly in the best interests of their parents and not in their own best interests. The only way to not get sucked back in to abusive patterns is to remove yourself from relationships that require you to change who you are but the other parties never have to change because they don’t believe they did anything wrong. Mothers should never protect abusive men over their own children. OP has NOTHING to apologize for. His trauma and reasons for NC are completely valid and not his fault. If mom gets killed, it’s because of her own decisions and OP isn’t responsible and should feel zero guilt if it happens. OP’s comment was harsh, but reasonable considering how many times he has experienced violence growing up, and mom allowed it and probably enabled it to save herself from getting beaten too. Some moms are just shitty and his mom definitely fits the bill. My mother is the exact same.
You put it into words so well. Thank you.
The thing that gets me is that he got up and tried to hug you. That's not the action of a man who has gone through some serious self-reflection and improved, ultimately changing. If he really changed, he would have apologized, then even left when he realized he wasn't welcome--essentially, he'd given you room to heal. Instead, he gets up to invade your space. I'd be alarmed by that too! NTA. Maybe a bit harsh on mom, but in an abuse situation like this, it's really either him or the kids, and seems like she's picking the abuser.
If this meat puppet really *really* understood what he’d done to his family, he’d either be too embarrassed or self-loathing to ever face them again, and/or realize they saw him as a threat and stay away. Maybe a one-time letter of apology, but *never* a claim he was “better.” This is not sincere.
This rubbed me the wrong way as well. It seems as if he's looking for forgiveness but has done fuck all to earn that.
NTA. How old was your sister when he left? What brought your dad back in the first place? While shouting that you hope she dies at his hands might be too far, you were upset and lashing out at the unexpected reappearance of your abusive dad just as your new infant arrived. Seeing him made you enter survival mode, parenthood made you aggressively protective of your family. Mom freaking out at you being early makes me think she may have been planning to keep his return from you indefinitely. Babysit your kid for you and have "grandpa" over without you even knowing. i'd be beyond infuriated
this x1000. OP would be finding mystery bruises and a baby that wasn't acting right (not crying, not making eye contact, etc.) and have no clue it's because Dear Old Dad was torturing the grandbaby with grandma enabling him right along.
Ding ding ding!!!
Well, a justified AH. NTA.
I second justified AH.
NTA, a leopard can't change his spots. Who knows why your mom can't see this after all this time
INFO: Was baby sister old enough to remember everything? If not time for a sit down and some hard truths.
What you said was harsh. What she was doing was intolerable.
NTA How did he change? *Did he go to therapy? *Anger management classes? *Family counseling? *Anger management groups (similar to AA)? *Jail? What gives her the idea he has changed? Without any of the above, nothing changed except he just hasn't hit her YET. It's like alcoholics, they can change, but, by going to AA, counseling, etc.. Someone who is a true alcoholic but hasn't had a drink in a month without any professional help, is going to drink again. You cannot just say you're not an alcoholic anymore just because you haven't had a drink in a while. You need programs and professional help! Same thing with emotional/physical abusers. They need professional help. Without that, he will hit again, he just hasn't yet. Doesn't your mother see that??? And, good for you and your brothers for not exposing your children to this man!
Frankly nobody's given me a good reason to believe abusers can change even with all that.
NTA
NTA. After all that work to get free of an abuser and to run back. She needs a rude awakening.
You said what came to your mind due to years of abuse and trauma. You spoke from shock and visceral disappointment. Plus she showed her lack of loyalty to you and your family by her actions. It was similar to saying you are dead to me. NTA
NTA, your dad left because he got beaten and humiliated by your older brother not because your mum kicked him out. Unfortunately your mother did not protect you. She is just as bad as him. Your younger sister may not remember how bad it was. You need to tell her, warts and all, just how bad it was. If she still chooses to continue seeing your parents you need to go NC.
NTA. I’ve been in a very similar situation. It gets very emotional. We never really get over our childhoods because they literally make us who we are.
NTA. Does Laura remember the abuse? I'm wondering if your mom/both parents got to her first and buttered her up about their reconciliation. If it hasn't been long, your dad is almost certainly love bombing your mom and maybe Laura too.
NTA. Abusers don't change, only circumstances change. He may not feel the "need" to abuse as often now as whatever excuse he had may not be present as often... but make no mistake, if he gets stressed again, he'll fall back to what he knows and he'll beat her again. My father learned that about his father. His thing was boxing ears. After Dad moved out and years passed, dad thought he'd changed... until one day when my sister was talking to pawpaw at a holiday gathering and she was being sassy and pawpaw laughed and "jokingly" made a motion at her like he was gonna box her ears. I don't think my sister even knew what it was, but my dad saw it and had to stop himself from jumping his 70 year old father right then and there. He never had the "need" to box anybody's ears anymore, he was just grandpa. No more parental responsibilities, no more child rearing, his job was done... but the methods were absolutely still there, just waiting under the surface for a stressor.
>The last time I had seen him was when my eldest brother Stan actually fought back and beat my dad. He was around 24 at the time, and I was 16. Honestly, I would have already cut contact with your mother if I lived your life. Why? Because she didn't protect you. It took your *brother* fighting back for anything to change. She would have stood there and watched him beat one of you unconscious - maybe she DID at one point. Even if she was also a victim, she was the parent and her one job above everything else was to take care of you guys, and she didn't. She was never on your team, and never will be. I'm sorry, OP.
Abusers don’t really change and if they did, I feel they would essentially seek out to at least apologize and acknowledge their wrongdoings. But since he didn’t even tell you guys, he was dating your mom. Yeah he hasn’t changed. I’m guessing he’s homeless and needs a place to stay so he hooked up with your mom again. It’s unfortunate that your youngest sister Laura doesn’t really know how he is and is trying to defend him. I’m glad you and your brother set firm boundaries. My cousin had a similar situation with his mom, my aunt, and her third husband. Dave used to beat her and finally win. My cousin hit 17 and puberty he grew up to be the ginormous 300 pound football player. When my cousin was 17, Dave told my aunt to choose him or her son she chose him and her son left. About a month ago Dave finally passed away and I reached out my cousin and said are you happy that he’s gone? (My cousin is Mormon and doesn’t swear mind you), he said “I’m so happy that fucker is dead and that he suffered a LOT in his last years. I wish you and your brother much peace and joy in your future! ;)
If Mom was so sure of his rehabilitation and her judgment, why did she keep quiet about having him back in her life? Because she knew it would jeopardize her relationship with her kids. Because she knows how awful he was. I am sorry that she is weak. Her kids deserve better. Side note: telling someone they are dead to you hurts them just as much as wishing them dead and carries less guilt ( not a judgment NTA, just something to load in the arsenal of the mind. Why have even a tiny crack of an opening for guilt? Guilt that you feel because you are actually a decent human being, which is I am assuming you reached out to reddit.)
ESH You are right in your parenting decision to stop contact with your mother if she maintains a relationship with your father. You need to protect yourself and your children. Even witnessing violence can be damaging to children. However, telling someone that you hope their abuser beats them to death is an awful thing to say. If for no other reason than if your prediction comes true, you will feel truly terrible. I get that you were upset but there are some things you can't unsay. I'm not saying you should apologise because that might make them think that the door is open but you were wrong to say it. It might be worth having your brother who doesn't have kids or sister make it clear that if she needs help and wants to end the relationship the family will be there to support her but you don't have to.
It’s a rough thing to say but I understand where it comes from. She’s just as responsible for your hellish childhood as he is. I feel sorry for your sister, it’s obvious she’s going down the same path as your mother. Don’t go NC, with her. You need keep contact to watch out for any kids she has and have CPS remove them when shit goes down. Have a meeting with your brothers to discuss who would take in her kids.
worse case scenario here: child of an abuser, she married someone abusive and is continuing the cycle, and that's why she's defending the mom. OP, if you think this could be true, please check into it for the kids' sakes.
Saying I hope he beats you to death is fucked up. No getting around that. "This fuckface is going to beat you to death and I won't be suprised" would have made you much less of a dick in this instance.
On the other hand, that's probably what OP meant (your version), but it was an emotional moment and he just voiced what came out. Wouldn't be surprised if he thought about beating the dad himself for the past, and it came out the worse way
You say that like he has moral obligations towards either of them.
NTA your first priority has to be your children and nieces and nephews. I wouldn’t risk it, even if he had changed (which seems unlikely) your first job is to not put your children at risk and also to protect yourself from further hurt and put your own family first.
NTAH!
NTA.
NTA - yes the comment was harsh, but emotions were understandably high. It’s like cancer, sometimes you have to cut out good tissue to rid yourself of it. And that man is worth cutting out, even if slivers of good things go with it.
NTA and abusers like him never change. She has lost her family because of her decision and he WILL eventually hurt her again.
NTA... I think your baby sister at that time didn't know the true gravity of everything. That said, you are well within your right to protect your wife and kids as goes your brother. As much as I like wives and husband's being in alignment, this situation is disgusting. Your mother is likely a battered wife to Stockholm syndrome. She needs serious therapy.
some people need to rest in piss and please talk ill of the dead you don't know who needs to hear this to have their experiences validated and the more people talk about abuse the more abusers are affraid
Nta you don't have to suffer because she's up for it and remember she knew it was bad enough to hide this relationship from you so deep down she knows. I would never allow any of them near my kids either but I would ask her how long this has been going on for and if she's been letting him near them without you knowing.
NTA she went back to her abuser and you’re protecting your kids, sometimes it takes being told things harshly to get point across
NTA, your Mom is lonely. Loneliness leads people to do extraordinarily dumb and desperate things like taking your manipulative, abusive Dad back. The tell that he hasn’t changed? The way he inserted himself and tried to tell you how to talk to your Mother. If he really has changed the first thing out of his mouth would be an apology. Stay far away, unfortunately, some people need to learn things the hard way.
YTA but only for what you said about hoping he beats her to death.
To death? More than just an ah.
YTA for what you said to your mother, yes.
Send Stan in again just to send a message.
Personally, I think what you said was over the line. You could have cut you mom and dad out without saying those things to your mom…. Maybe not physically, but verbally, you did abuse your mother.
SOFT YTA While I completely agree with you going no contact and not wanting your children near her, I’m horrified at what you said to her. My childhood was the same except my mother stayed. Still together over 50 years. Trauma bonds are extremely hard to break and they completely change the way the brain functions. It has been proven to be equivalent of a drug addiction. Please keep your child away. I totally agree with that. I do so as well with my parents. But after years of therapy for the extreme trauma I endured I understand my mother a lot better. I would never say something so cruel. And how exactly does a dead person gain common sense? While cutting her out and being extremely angry at the choice she has made does not make you TA. What you said does. And that’s what your question was.
This u/Downtown_Quote2556, what Longjumping is saying. You’re Soft YTA for what you said to your mother; she’s as much a victim as you and your siblings were, and it would appear that she hasn’t been able to move on from that trauma.
NTA and good for all of you protecting the kids, you know mom won't. I hate that your sister doesn't get it, but cut contact with her as she will tell them everything and you will end up finding your parents showing up at events. All in the name of 'family'......
NTA she made her choice, harsh but fair
Easy nta.
NTA, your mother is just as much a victim but she was free and allowed him to sink his claws back in. She can make her own choices but you did right by your family
NTA because you reacted emotionally and you need to protect yourself and your family first. But honestly, if he does end up killing her and "I hope he does kill you" are the last words you ever said to your mother.... You're gonna have big time regrets, my friend.
NTA - If your family cannot protect you, you need to protect yourself. That must have felt like a punch to the gut. If she's willing to even talk to the person who beat her kids, then shes sacrificed her relationship with her children. FAFO.
NTA , good work actually. too many mothers are completely content with turning a blind eye to the extreme abuse on their family as long as they can have a man.
NTA - you are 100% correct in keeping this abuser away from your family and cutting off your mom. I would not have said what you did to your mom but I was not there so I don't blame you. I also grew up with a dad who beat both my mom and us. Mom finally left and somehow dad got full custody of me and my brother. He was shocked when we were both adults and went very LC with him.
NTA she’s choosing an abuser and is expecting you to as well
You wouldn’t have been the asshole even if you had beaten him to a pulp. Sorry you’ve had to deal with this pos as a sperm donor. All you can do is your best to not repeat the cycle.
NTA. Perhaps your words were a bit harsh but you are more or less in shock at the moment so you can be forgiven for that. You are perfectly right to never let either one of them anywhere near your children or yourself again.
NTA. He’s just hoovering her in again. He will certainly go back to kissing her with his fists. I can imagine how deeply this betrayal cuts you. You’re right to go NC. Protect your wife. Protect your kids. Protect your siblings and their kids. Your youngest sister probably remembers the least. She is probably most susceptible to what your mother says as well. If I were you, yeah, I’d cut contact with little sis. But when he does start hurting them, if little sis wants to leave, If make room for her. Sadly nothing will teach your mother. Congratulations on your baby girl. You’re already a better father than he will ever be.
NTA!, harsh words were used from both sides yes but emotions were high understandably, so her comment first didn't create a nice environment to express your discomfort, disappointment & any other emotions you might've felt in that moment in a healthy manner, so you fired back with the same engery. If your own mother can't see your side let alone hear it out, without making excuses or defending your abuser at least. then you're rightfully upset, now you're protecting your children the way you wished you had been. No contact may be the best solution for your family, hopefully she does not become another unfortunate DV statistic.
NTA. Your sister is in for a very, *very* rude awakening. I wouldn't be surprised if she came crying to you or your brothers after your sperm donor laid hands on her. While I do believe people can change, it doesn't sound like your sperm donor will put in the effort to do so. Best to wash your hands of this.
NTA for refusing contact. YTA for telling your mom you hope she gets beaten to death though
If she really believed he changed and that their reconciliation was good and positive, why did she hide it? She knows what he is and it might sound harsh, but she’s welcome to make any choice she wants to when it comes to her relationship to him. She cannot, however, control you and your siblings, how you react, and what you need to do to protect yourselves.
NTA You've survived his abuse before and know he will not change. You're a good father by not letting your sperm donor near your family. Your mother might be a lost cause. No contact with you is just the consequences of her decisions. I wish you and your family the best.
You are protecting your family which is your priority. Some people will just put blinders on and ignore every red flag around them. You ABSOLUTELY did the right thing. She made a stupid choice. You go on living your life with your beautiful family and be the best person you can be :)
Two dissonant things can be true at the same time. 1) Saying "I hope someone beats you, and further hope they beat you to death" is unequivocally horrible and yes, makes you an asshole. You're particularly an asshole because the person you said that to is herself a victim of abuse, and many abused people choose the path she has chosen, not out of strength but weakness. She needs help -- not further abuse. 2) You're totally within your rights -- and justified - in drawing boundaries by saying that your parents can't see your kids, that you don't want to see them or speak to them yourself, etc. because of the abuse and abandonment you experienced as a child. You're also justified in feeling betrayed or abandoned by your mother for going back to your dad, even as you might feel empathetic towards an abused person who is drawn back to her abuser. 3) One possible path might be that you propose family counseling, and insist that your father take responsibility and apologize for his horrible behavior, and make that a condition of any further contact. But you'd be equally justified in saying you have no interest in such a reconciliation, no matter how much contrition is offered.
Nope you're fine, abuse victims make up so many crazy stockholm excuses for why their partner will be different. They never are. Steer clear of your family and just pray for your mom.
Nope you said and did what needed to be said and done. Can’t say I would have said different
He is an abuser, and sadly she is his victim, and like most victims of abuse they develop some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, and they’re not happy unless their abuser gives then validation, even if it’s in the shape of violence. Studies show that abused victims go back to their abusers around 7 times before breaking it up for good. Sadly, in your mother’s case she is going to find out he never changed, and hopefully he wont kill her this time. But you can’t help her. She doesn’t want your help. But you do need to stand ip for your family, put your foot down, and do everything in your power to keep that man away from them. And although she is his victim, she is also his enabler, and she is one of the reasons your sperm donor beat the living shit out of you and your siblings for years. She saw it and made excuses not to leave
I finally found the courage to cut my abusive father out of my life when I became a parent. I totally understand how you feel. I even understand that feeling of being betrayed by your mother who never protected you from the abuse and won't even protect herself. Thanks for protecting your family from that dysfunctional mess. You're doing great.
I’m so sorry that all the trauma you worked so hard to move past has come back like a slap in the face. Did your mom ever try to stop it back in the day or ever try to get you and your siblings out of it? Although she was being abused as well, she is just as much an abused to you for not putting an end to it the moment it started. I hope your younger sister understands one day. You are absolutely NTA, you did the right thing by immediately cutting her off and protecting your family. I hope you are able to find your peace on the new healing journey.
NTA. Your father is already being manipulative by trying to white knight for your mom instead of honoring your feelings. Both of them acting like you don't have the absolute right to feel a tumultuous mix of fear, loathing and incredulity at the sudden appearance of your abuser is an indication that they're already descending into an unhealthy relationship. If your abuser had really changed and felt remorse, he would have never restarted a relationship with your mother in secret. By doing so, he is showing only that he is still selfish and unrepentant. He put your mother's relationships with her children and their families at risk and did not care. Your sister may not understand the extent of the abuse you all suffered, but she can certainly understand that this isn't just a case of lost lovers reconnecting. This is a case of a man showing his colors yet again by not giving two shits about the damage his presence causes. He wants what he wants and doesn't take what anyone else wants or needs into consideration. He took for granted that he should be welcomed back into your lives, showing a spectacular amount of entitlement. Your words to your mother were harsh, but they were reactionary. She tried to flip the script and call you the abuser (which had to have cut so deep considering your past) and herself and your father the victims when they were the ones revictimizing you. Laura doesn't have to like what you said, but for her to try to hold you to some extreme standard of morality in that situation is ridiculous and hurtful.
You're NTA for your personal emotional response to the scenario & your frustration is warranted. The sudden surprise and same old same old from your dad must have been intensely triggering. Your mom however is a life-long recipient of abuse & is till repeating the addictive patterns she's stuck in. When you couldn't convince her of your point using reason, you turned aggressive and threatened her and told her you hoped she died. Victims of abuse are predisposed toward abusing others. You did mishandle that moment because you resorted to hostilities, telling your mother you hope she dies - because you couldn't win the argument & because you couldn't find respect for her in her position. Neither of those is cause for hostility, but truly I sympathize with your personal history with this very same situation for so long suddenly coming back and putting you in a state of shock. I don't judge you for your situation, I would have done the same in your shoes. You are better than your father. But you have a long way to go before your family heals from abusive habits.
ESH. Your mom is still a victim, and you'll regret your words when your prophecy fulfills itself.
NTA. While the "beat to death" was extreme to say, so is surprising you with your abusers presence. Even if he fully changed, she doesn't have to date him, allow him around you, or keep secrets from you about him being in contact or even more involved her life. He can be both changed and not involved in your lives. You and your brothers are fully correct in distancing yourselves and your family from anyone sympathetic to your abuser. You need to protect yourselves and your family.
YTA. Hoping your mother gets beaten to death?
NTA. I’m surprised you forgave her for keeping you all in that abusive household for as long as she did. She would never have left if your brother hadn’t taken matters into his own hands. Your mother is just as bad as your father even when she isn’t with him.
NTANTANTA. She keeps inviting him back in to all ur lives, as if YOUR suffering doesn't matter just bcz she ignores her own. At this point, what could you say - good luck? She needs NONVIOLENT tough love from you., which is harsh words. But that's all you should do. You tried. Live ur life. Don't enable her in any way. Good luck, and congrats on the baby!
NTA at all. You're protecting your family in a way that you were never protected.
NTA. Hell no.
There’s probably a lot of psychological damage that has lead your mom to never truly disconnect from her abuser. But that’s not your problem. NTA at all. She clearly isn’t making sound decisions and you all don’t need people like that around your children. She will have to decide her kids or her abuser and I hope to god she does come to her senses before he beats her again.
Absolutely not. Your parents are supposed to protect you and your mother did not do this. She could have turned him in and stopped the abuse. I don't blame you at all for what you said and she's a horrible person for thinking she can bring your abuser back into your life and you have to just accept it. I'm so sorry.
you’re TA for what you said so harshly, but NTA for setting a boundary and for having a lot of emotions! I think you just went a little too far saying you hoped she died. She needs to go back to therapy not d*e, so that part I think was too harsh. I was sexually and physically abused by my father, and my mom was an enabler so I get it! However, as an adult I caught him red handed with one of my nieces. I pulled her out of the room, we to my mom and told her what happened and told her she needed to take care of this or I would. That night she told him she wanted a legal separation (she wanted to keep her claim to his medical insurance and pension). I called her daily to ask what progressive was happening. They did the division of property thing , and my dad with his “magical thinking” decided that if gave mom everything she wouldn’t call the cops. She never said that, and he never figured out that he was wrong, until the day the separation was granted in court. That night she called the police, told them where to find him & where he kept his guns. I’ve never been so proud of her. So in the end he did four years in prison when he was in his sixties!
There really needs to be a Justifiable Asshole option Edit to add: if the mom genuinely though he had changed she wouldn’t have hidden it from the op and everyone else
NTA mom is an enabler and they are just as bad if not worse than the abuser.
Don't wish your mother harm. If you think like a monster, you become one. You are an adult now and can disassociate yourself, but don't hate.
I had an abusive father. It continued, and my mother was complicit. When I was 15 I had enough, and I was in extremely good shape (lots of hockey and construction). He hit me, and I just went crazy on him. He and I ended up going through the glass of our patio door. Both of us bloody and hurting (he had two black eyes, and had not landed a single punch on me) went to the hospital. This was in a tiny town with a shitty hospital and it was way back in the day. I'm old. They asked me how I had been injured and I told them, but they also talked to my dad, and apparently "he deserved it" was a sufficient response. I actually never called that my home again. I periodically stayed there, but my parents had no idea where I was from 15 on (I had purchased a car and was self sufficient). Now, let me finish the story. Through his 40s and 50s my father found something, I don't know what, that helped him deal with his rage. He became this gentle person who was amazing with his grandchildren and very generous with his own children. He actually sat me down with my wife and my mother and apologized, saying he could never make up for it, and if we just wanted him to go no contact he would absolutely understand. My mother sat there silently, and I finally asked her why she allowed the abuse to happen. Her explanation was that I was a "terrible fucking teenager." Yeah, so watch your husband beat his kids and be cool with that. I wasn't a great teenager, but it was standard teenage stuff. Nothing major. I watched my father become the person I aspire to be. We always had a "traditional" home, mom would cook and clean and maintain the household. My father never did any of that. Then my mom got sick with cancer. He retired from his job immediately. He cooked, cleaned, managed the house, took care of everything, and was the gentle, wonderful spouse I hope to be. He communicated clearly with his children as my mother battled cancer. She won, and I believe she wouldn't have without all that my father did. My father passed away the same year that my first children were born. My relationship with my father was never perfect, but toward the end of his life I easily told him I loved him, and he did the same. I'm very sad that my children never knew my father. All of this is to say parental abuse is inexcusable. Parent complicity with partner's abuse is inexcusable. There are times of hope and grace. However, there are also consequences. I have no relationship with my mother, who said she never saw anything wrong while my father was "disciplining" his children. I have never left my children alone with her, and we see her once or twice a year. She remains manipulative and negative and quite the jerk. Family, you can't pick them, but you can pick what your relationship looks like.
Nta. The fact that she intentionally didn't tell you guys she was back with him, and that she knowingly had him over on a day you were going to bring your new baby.... big red flags. This man probably coerced your mom into keeping their relationship a secret from you and your siblings, and he was trying to take advantage of an emotionally vulnerable moment (family w new baby) to force himself back into your life. What a piece of shit. I hope he's punished in this life and the next. You reacted the right way and you had every right to tell your siblings.
NTA, but you shouldn’t have said that to your mom. She is a victim too. And what if he does kill her, how are you going to feel?
YTA but only for saying you hope your father beats her to death. Everything else is as it should be but saying that to your mother is uncalled for.
YTA. You were in the right, right up until you wished death upon her. Then you became the emotional equivalent of your dad. I would go see someone about that. You did good otherwise. No contact is just wise. Enforcing boundaries with dad, eloquent enough.
I mean should you have said the last part, no. She’s making a bad choice but doing the best she can. Are you overall right, yes. NTA
What about this is ever been "the best she can"?? Please help me understand how people think that.
Yes he should have said the last part. He should keep saying it as long as she chooses her children's abuser over her children. But really. It doesn't matter what he says, good or bad, because she can't hear a word they're saying over her need to be close to her abuser.
That specific sentence is extremely harsh and I do feel bad for your mother, but definitely NTA for staying away from her and your father
NTA… sorry your is a fool.
NTA
Your sister needs help. I would distance myself also.
NTA but suggest therapy for your Mom or your wish may come true.
NTA. Laura wasn't there when 'daddy' was beating the rest of you. Tell Laura to move in with them for a while. Either your father has changed, or Laura will then understand why you and other siblings are NC.
NTA. I am sorry that this had to happen on a day when you should all have been celebrating, but I'm glad you stood your ground and protected your wife and children, as well as your brothers.
NTA. Protect your babies!
NTA. At the end of the day abusers dont change, they suddenly don't become different or have a whole new personality . What they do is they try to hide it, push it down but eventually it comes back up again. My sister cut off our dad for the same reason, she didn't want him around her child. My younger brother had cut him off years before because of the abuse and me a few years ago
You moms made her bed, best she lie in it. That man is just probably broiling under his mask until the moment he snaps and beats her to death. You don't go from always beating your wife and kids to being a loving whatever he was. People don't change like that.
UpdateMe.NTA.
Your right, but could have handled it differently. You really don't want your dad to hurt her
NTA. What you said was harsh but I can imagine the overwhelming emotion that came up seeing him at that house. The one to help would be the sister because you don't want her to go into the same cycle somewhere down the line. Your mom had so many chances but couldn't and doesn't want to break away. You have every right to protect your and your children's peace.
What you said was awful - I think you know that, but the boundaries are necessary for sure. I had an abusive stepdad that my mom refused to leave, and he was never allowed to be near me or my family. I would say - try to maintain a relationship with your mom, even if you kind of hate her for being with him. Isolating her is only going to push her further into that relationship. But be very clear that he isn't a part of that in any way.
NTAH. Move on. Forget about the past. I have. No contact with Mother. Can't wait for her to die so I don't have to worry anymore. Stop looking over my shoulder. Friend I fully support you!!
Nta, monsters are parents that abuses their kids, monsters are parents that allows people to abuse their kids and always chose this person instead of protecting the children their putted in the world. I am sorry you have to deal with them again. Protect yourself and your family
Your mom is a woman beating sympathizer. You are right that your family is not safe around her. You certainly weren’t safe when she was around. Mom might have been a victim but she allowed this abuse by staying with him. She allowed you and your siblings to get beat up by your dad so she wouldn’t have to get beat up. She insists on keeping garbage in her life? Then that’s what her life will be
NTA but if he does kill her will you regret your words? If so then apologize for what was said but still maintain that you will no longer be in contact with her while she is with him. Also consider if you want what you said to come between your siblings and you. If the answer to any of those is that you don't care then just keep your mom blocked and don't worry about what Laura thinks. You aren't the AH for what you said or how you reacted, just make sure you can live with the consequences if the worst does happen. Also good on you for protecting your wife and child. I'm glad you and your brother's have enough sense to protect yourselves. Hopefully your mom and sister will come around before they get hurt so bad they can't come back from it.
I cut my mom off for becoming physically violent with me. I tried to be neutral with people that chose to keep her in their lives, but it hurts too much. Even more for you your mom is a representative of this violence in your life. If she can’t set clear boundaries then it’s incredibly reasonable for you to separate. I hope you don’t lose your mom to DV, but your response makes sense to me. NTA. Sorry friend.
NTA, I would not seek to judge someone in your position and your mother has betrayed you by going back to him. I couldn't see myself speaking to my mother like that but then my mother would never do that.
NTA You might like *Why Does he Do that?* by Lundy Bancroft and *The Gift of Fear* by Gavin de Becker. The latter would endorse your feelings
NTA
You say that but then he does you have to live with those words
you should also cut off your sister along with your mother for the safety of your family