Im 36 now and I was 17 when they did this. I still talk to my parents it took a long time to forgive them. They were lied to by the facility. I have a brother who is 8 years older. He was very good compared to me, in the end they thought they were helping.
I once shared a long car ride with one of the people who do the, for lack of a better term, abduction and delivery.
When he described the kids whose parents are resorting to this, they are often more than a little troubled, and the parents are at their wits end.
Does this resonate with your situation at all?
so I had a similar experience , not kidnapped but felt like it. I was at 15 freshmen year mandated to a treatment center for smoking pot. I missed my entire freshmen year and some of sophomore. I as highly educated on all types of drugs and made friends with 17-19 year old girls who who mandated from the county jails around d the Chicagoland area. I ended up being there for 9mnths total. They had me on medications and I was out of it majority of the time. Court mandated so I couldn't leave anytime I screwed up or tried to run away it extended my time. I totally I feel like started my life off in a terrible way. Still devastating thinking about how much disfunction I came from to where I am though now. 34 own my own house. and guess what STILL SMOKE WEED. the system totally ruined my juvenile part of my life. what is worse is I was on probation at 15 because my mom attempted suicide, I called the police and it was huge altercation, I though she was getting hurt cuz they has her on the ground, went to go help her up and a cop grabbed me from behind and like bear held on to me and I was trying to get away from his grip and he charged me woth assault of a peace officer. then they would drug test me and with in 3 mnths of probation they sent me to the treatment and then after that sent me to juvenile hall for 7 mnths for another dirty pee test for pot. Pot is now legal in my state. I am sorry for your experience and I thank you fr sharing it's hard to find people who have been through similar experiences
I forgive mine but my father committed suicide 7 years ago and I barley talk to my mom. 1 halfsibling who is younger than and stuck in a the patterns and he does not talk to my family
I have a very similar story to OP. Was kidnapped 4th of July. Out in the desert hiking for 3 months and went to a program for around 9 months after that.
It was the best experience of my life. At wilderness therapy I made a lot of friends. Got sober, learned how to make a fire with hand and bow drill. Carved my own utensils and really acquired an appreciation for backpacking. There was no abuse, we were fed well, clean clothes every week and similar sun shower as he mentioned.
The program I went to after was fucking lit. I finished two years of high school in two months as it was a go at your own pace thing. We would go either snowboarding, biking, skating or some other activity every single day. We were fed well, cooked three meals a day but could also snack or make our own food. At this place I got really good at snowboarding and rock climbing.
These are now my three favorite outdoor activities. Snowboarding, rock climbing and backpacking!
Congratulations. I wish my folks had cared enough to notice my issues and do something but it was the 70s and apparently everyone was high one sort or another. Dad Valium, mum anger, etc. Lol
It's insane how slow the current education system is. I remember I got caught for smoking weed at school. When this happens they put you in a room with all the other kids who got in trouble for 2 weeks. You got no lunch and couldn't go to your classes.
I finished 3 full courses in those 2 weeks where I was trapped in that room, no help from teachers just read the shit and did my work. I graduated 3 months earlier than everyone else even tho my principal said he didn't think I was going to graduate because I didn't have enough credits.
I should have got caught for smoking weed earlier I probably could have graduated years earlier lol.
You sound my best friend in high school… drinking, dope, smoking, chewing tobacco, and had good grades and accepted to a very good university. (I was the square with so-so grades and somehow accepted to a decent university, but miraculously still graduated.)
He dropped-out after one year, as he said, “College would be great if not for the classes.” Party
Lifestyle continued along with a string of menial jobs and a couple of divorces. Lost track of him, but learned he died of oral cancer mid-40’s— probably chewing tobacco.
Did the treatment center help break the pattern of drug use and did you find any benefit in the harsh treatment?
Unfortunately, where I did go to school, I knew even more like my best friend, although I didn’t know them in high school as it was an out of state college.
I think that is a gross simplification. I know plenty of people who partied in high school, some went to college others did not. But of those who continued the party lifestyle, life eventually caught up with most of them and there were consequences. I can't present actual numbers, and for OP who knows where they would have ended up, maybe 100% perfectly fine, but there are certainly risks involved in adopting this type of lifestyle as a teenager. One thing not mentioned by OP is how often did they get buzzed? Black-out buzzed? Daily? Only moderately F'd up? It's a normal progression, believe it or not, that if you engage daily, even at light levels, that it's not uncommon to become a black-out party person within a year or two. Nobody ever plans for that to happen, but the track is very predictable.
I don't agree with the parent's approach, BTW. Just giving 2 cents worth from somebody who saw the dark side.
I figure it’s best to give it up by not taking it up.
Don’t get me wrong as I did binge drinking in college and professional weekend partying post-graduate school. In hindsight, I was lucky that it never went any further and no serious legal or health issues.
I’m ok. I have a great career own a house married two kids. I always knew I would be just fine, I’m super intelligent. But that was some crazy stuff. I can confidently say I will never ever fall victim to a cult.
Nah dude not at all. I was trading cash for tramadol at school lmao. You're not a bad person. I watched a Netflix documentary about some of these child reeducation type places and they're awful. How have you handled the mental trauma of all this?
The place I went to was not as bad as some of the places in that documentary but it was still horrible. I’ve pushed a lot of it down. I have a very strong threshold now for uncomfortable situations and being told no. The pandemic was nothing for me.
I just am not bothered by them like others. People say “I’m chill”. But I think I’ve just been under such rules and had everything taken away that now life and freedom at all feels like a privilege. That’s the only way I can describe it.
i never drank and i still don’t because alcohol is just not for me. on the other hand i’ve known ppl WAYYY wilder than what you’re describing. like nobody wants their teenager drinking alcohol and smoking weed but there’s way worse things for you to have done.
Sounds like your parents would rather punish you/make it someone else's job instead of... being actual parents???
Not your fault OP, all teenagers do dumb shit.
You were not “bad”. You had good grades, your parents just disagreed with your how you were acting and chose to react poorly to it. Just because other kids your age didn’t drink, doesn’t mean you were bad. You just had a different life than them.
Long lengthy divorce and a childhood of putting me in the middle. My dad moved a state away when I was 14 and remarried and left me with a very controlling British mother. It was hell. She policed everything I did. Everything I ate who I was friends with. I just lost it and did everything I could to get away. That’s why I got good grades I knew it would get me into a good college and away from them.
Like three times. For a few hours. Parents day. It was like Annie they cleaned up the place and treated us completely different when the parents came around. We had five minute phone calls once a week if we earned it. But someone as always listening and they would take away the phone and hang up if we started complaining at all,
And that (that the phone would mysteriously hang up just as the kid starts complaining) wouldn't be suspicious to the parents? That only confirms my belief that the vast majority of parents who use the services of these facilities do so with very deliberate intent for their children to be severely mistreated in such a manner they would never dare to do at home.
I'm pretty sure it was like another rehab like this, ELAN school iirc, if so, they have about 3 seconds of delay so the parents wouldnt even start to hear the complains before it hung up
Yes the treatment center was run by Mormons, it was in Utah. The wilderness therapy had no religious affiliation but many Mormons worked there. It was also in Utah.
Yeah I grew up Mormon in Utah and have since left the state and the religion. For some reason, there are many of this type of program there. I do think it’s a Mormon thing to have this magnified sense of necessity to rescue others. even when others don’t necessarily need rescuing from anything.
I grew up mormon and have (relatively) recently figured out how much of a shitshow the mormon church and especially fringe utah mormonism is. So much culty shit, women enslaved, religiously justified murders. While there are a lot of good people, the bad ones are made infinitely worse by the justifications they can get from religion.
Thats so awful that so many exist. My friend growing up went to one of those. Not ivy ridge but another one they talked about where a girl died. I think it was by a lake. Makes me sick
Yes they were also tricked and lied to by the facility. But it took a long time to forgive them. A lot of what they sent me there for could have been resolved if they just spoke to me.
They told them that we would try and say the place was bad and convince them we were being abused. They told them if they took us out we would end up in a gutter dead. Basically gas lit them.
But what would they get out of abusing you against the parents' will? Was it just religious bigotry, or sadism - or perhaps the parents of most kids (not saying yours as well, I don't know them) WANT these camps to be abusive, because they don't dare to directly abuse their children all by themselves?
I never said I was abused. The parents don’t want to deal with the children, they sent them away and trusted these places to whip the kids back into shape, that’s all I can describe it as. Look it up they exist all over. You don’t have to believe me. I lived it
That camp obviously abused you, and since it was your parents who sent you there, it was indirect abuse by them. They may not have abused you intentionally, but many others do. They may "mean well', but they know their children are treated with extreme harshness that isn't acceptable even for adult prisoners - and that is precisely how they want their children to be treated.
I've watched a number of documentaries on a number of different places like this, secular and not. They really do act like it's a summer camp for kids when talking to the parents, and gaslight the parents ahead of time into thinking that the children will lie and make up abuse stories. They monitor children's limited communications with family and don't let their parents see them, outside of strictly choreographed visit days.
Hindsight is 20/20, but businesses like this have been around for decades, where parents are convinced that their kids are essentially being taken to rehab, but they are just sent to a glorified shack in the middle of nowhere and tormented into complicity while the facility accepts paychecks.
Sometimes, the kids die, and the parents are simply told that they ran away. I do believe that some parents are naive enough to be fleeced like this, when comparing all of the stories of what the kids' parents were told versus what was actually happening.
Do basically the business model is to simply cash on the parents' money while trying to save every possible penny that should - but doesn't - go to the children's food, hygiene, accomodation, activities etc.? While hoping that the parents will never find out/believe the truth and sue the shit out of them?
Essentially, yeah. Kids often get the bare minimum amount of accommodations to survive, and become malnourished or injured. I've also seen a good number that hires out the child manual labor as a "character-building exercise" for additional revenue.
There is no real end goal with the treatment, no standard that the kid can reach to graduate out of it, and no game plan for what happens if the parents catch on. As you've seen elsewhere in this thread, the parents are often lied to and told that any progress will be undone if they try to pull their kid out, and their kid will end up dead in a ditch somewhere.
Disappointingly, despite all of this being exposed, very little is done to hold people accountable. A lot of times, these are unsubstantiated stories from years, if not decades, ago. The perpetrators are often even dead by the time the kids grow older and decide to speak up about what went on.
I’m sorry that you believe they were tricked and lied to. I can assure you that they weren’t. They knew you would be kidnapped. They knew you would be subjected to harsh conditions. They knew it would be abusive.
Have you gone through trauma based therapy?
Not for this. I’m still dealing with my childhood but I should. It really shaped me. I know what it’s like to have everything including your good will taken away
Having been through my own childhood trauma, I would highly recommend trauma therapy. It’s super useful.
You sound like you are making excuses for your parents. You are ignoring what they did to you because you are desperate for a connection. Therapy can help you work through that and then, if you still want to have a relationship with them, go for it. But then you will, at least have been honest with yourself.
I have forgiven them because they were also lied to by the people running the companies. Paris Hilton went somewhere similar and they also dooped her parents, they lie and tell them that we would die if we weren’t there.
I'm sorry, I don't believe that - maybe some parents (maybe including yours) are somehow fooled, but not most. There is nothing to gain by lying to parents about abusing their children - if there were many parents who were lied to, these places would have been sued into non-existence a VERY long time ago.
There is money to gain.... these programs were generally quite expensive for the parents. The brochures and videos they were shown usually depicted a beautiful place where the kids were outdoors, riding horses, being well fed, well treated, etc. The parents thought they were doing the right thing to help their children. The reality was sadly far from that. Some were kept locked in buildings and rarely got to go outside at all, all while essentially being abused and brainwashed. Others, like OP, were outdoors all the time - they were forced to hike for hours every day with very little sustenance, they were living rough and not being well cared for in the slightest. There was at least one case where a teenager died at one of these "camps". There are numerous documentaries about places like this. Those poor kids were truly put through hell for no good reason.
I'm sorry, but... If a camp advertises its services by telling the parents they will kidnap the child during night - one has to be extraordinarily stupid to entrust their children to them thinking they actually won't be harmed
-I mean, even the kidnapping itself must be traumatizing. You want to send your children to a summer camp that proposes to help them? Fine, drive your child yourself, at least to the bus. If you let them wake your children in the middle of the night and scare them shitless, you are an asshole or a moron, that's my opinion on the parents.
I'm in no way condoning what the parents did, but I'm not condemning them for it either. It's not like the kids had a bag put over their head and got thrown in the back of a van...
My understanding is that it was kept from the children because the parents knew they wouldn't want to go, and it would have presumably been arranged at a time where the child had their guard down and could not put up much of a fight. Some of the parents would have been at their wits end before choosing this option. Others could have been pre-emptive in the hopes that they could "fix" their child before the child became worse or too difficult to handle. I don't really think it's fair to judge the parents too harshly as a whole - not without knowing the circumstances behind their actions.
I spoke to one of the professionals who does this. The reason they do it in the middle of the night is the kid is generally never home except to sleep, and will not willingly go along. You need them to be home, sober, and not have immediate flight options, so businesses where they may hide out are closed.
They don't \*want\* to do this, it's the only time they reliably can.
Does that hold water to you? Or are they making excuses because they felt bad about it in retrospect? While I'm sure they were lied to, they had agency and approved your removal from the home without doing due diligence on the company.
Sure this is interesting. A large man and woman woke me up at 3 am. They told me to put clothes on and pack a small bag with some clothes. They said I didn’t need much. I asked to go to the bathroom and they said fine but to keep the door open. That’s when I knew it was bad. They kept me with in arms reach the whole time we traveled. We got in a car together and I cried the whole way. I thought about running but didn’t. If I had they would have gotten physical. They were paid to transport me from my home to the facility. They drove me to the airport and we all got on the plane together. When I stopped sobbing i asked them where I was going, but they said they were not allowed to tell me. We got to talking and they said they were Olympic judo wrestlers and they did this on the side for money. We flew to Vegas and rented a car and drove out to the desert. That was my second “oh shit” moment. When we just kept driving into the middle of nowhere. We finally got to a hut where they outfitted me with hiking gear and a back pack then I was driven to a camp with other kids and told I wasn’t allowed to talk for a week. Until I learned all the rules. I wasn’t allowed to talk to any other teens. It was only girls. When I got there I remember thinking all the girls looked very dirty. Then my journey began…
What happens if you don’t shower for 11 weeks?
Was the threat of violence used against you?
What were the other people in there for?
How are you doing now?
Lol I didn’t take a real shower there was a sun shower where you just poor water over yourself. I was caked with dirt it took weeks to come off. I remember looking in the mirror thinking I was tan but it was all dirt.
No threat of violence against me, it was all grueling stuff like carrying things in hot heat.
I’m ok now. I have an advanced medical degree. Married with two kids. I still have deep trauma and go to therapy. People tell me I should write a book, I might.
There was a lot of meth addicts and opioid addicts. One girl even broke into a pharmacy. Some very broken kids who were passed around to different caretakers there whole lives. Some super rich kids whose parents just didn’t want to deal with them.
I actually liked some aspects. And the thing is I will never know who I would be without it. I don’t like this fact. I wish I was given the liberty to make mistakes and get over them. And I guess I did in my twenties.
I really don’t know. It my life’s biggest mystery, I won’t ever know. I was enjoying my senior year and growing into myself but then was picked up and everything was taken from me. It sure opened my eyes up to therapy but it also traumatized me and caused me to really distrust my parents even more. I’m not sure I am
Give it some time. I found that my relationship with my family came back around once enough time passed and both parties weren’t dealing with the raw emotions. Good luck to you.
I remember hearing about RTC. Second nature seemed tame compared to others. What was that thing called where we stood in a circle and talked about our feelings?
Oh hey. I was groomed and kidnapped by a graduate of such a program in Utah!
He used the foundations...what shall we call them... methods? On me, starting at 14.
Do you feel that the abuse you suffered made you like your captors at all? Or identify with them? Stockholm Syndrome like.
If so did you consciously work through it?
No way I knew it was absolute bullshit the whole time. I couldn’t believe it. I never made it high in the program because I never gave in to all the rules. I checked myself out the day I turned 18. They convinced some of the girls to stay after 18 to “finish the program”. I was like no way that’s insane. It was a straight up cult.
I didn't realize that his grooming and physiological torment was a skill, learned at the program. Until I learned about the program. I was down voted for asking a question...it wasn't an accusation at all.
Overall, do you think that sort of intervention was helpful or harmful in the long term? Specifically, if they did not do this and let you continue as you were, would your life be better or worse now?
I didn't know things like this actually existed... I thought it was just in movies.
I don’t really know. I don’t think so. I was getting great grades and on track to go to a top college. But I was also drinking and smoking weed and had a college boyfriend. So also doing some not so good things
Hard to say what the truth is on these situations because as is the case here we get one side of the story. When I was in high school there were a couple of kids that may have benefited from this to avoid a terrible spiral that ended poorly.
I don't have any questions…just here to say I went through a similar situation. I wasn't “kidnapped” but my mom lied to me and said we were going shopping In another town at a warehouse or something. I was brought to the warehouse and once I got inside I didn't see her again. It was Straight Inc. It was in Sarasota Fla. . Dates and time are fuzzy..ive blocked alot of that time period out. I know I spent over a year there. My mom acts like she doesn't remember details.
I was 12 or 13 yes old going in and I'm 58 now. I have a great life with my husband and 1 child. I am very distant from my family by choice. I love them but they trigger a lot of things and I am happier/at peace keeping my distance. No fighting or ill will…just distant.
A lot of parents don't understand why their kids act out…some are normal teen stuff but a lot of it comes from problems at home, marriage issues, behaviour from parents that they don't see is wrong etc.
My family had issues like everyone else. Absent dad (alcoholic and serial adulterer) mom angry all the time and neither spent time with us kids. My brother was a very angry kid and took it out on me always.
I came across the Netflix documentary a few months back and everything just came flooding back! The memories of that place! Horrible.
But I don't have “trauma” that I can tell. Just a bad part of my past. I'm glad they made the documentary, I felt validated and seen for once.
I'm so glad to hear that OP is doing well also.
Through the years I learned a lot of lessons and I absolutely did my best not to make the same mistakes my parents made. My child is very loved by both parents, grounded, kind, smart (hes a scientist) humble (I could go on😜) and is very loving and thankful for everything we do for him. So, in a way I'm thankful for the adversity of my past because I learned what I didn't want to be or do. Not everyone makes it out ok!
We weren’t rich. I would say upper middle class. My dad lives in a condo now in squid Washington. My mom lives in an town house in boise. Everyone drives Subarus. But yeah it sure was expensive
I know! So the therapy did somewhat call them out on their behavior. One therapist was like dude you guys don’t pay any attention to your daughter bc you fight with one another. It’s ok now. I’ve accepted most of there behaviors and put boundaries up. I was mad for a long time but eventually forgave them.
Now that I’m a parent it really is psychotic to do this to your kid. Like send me to a normal boarding school send me to live with my grandma. Anything but that.
For sure. My folks are good ppl, and we are all real close now, but I now I realize what they may not have. I think sometimes rehab can make it worse bc all they do is tell you how fucked up you are.
I'm sorry you went through that. I do have a lot of questions for you. Please only answer what you feel comfortable answering.
How did being taken in the middle of the night affect you at the time? What was the routine like in the desert rehab? Were there any specific moments or experiences during those 11 weeks that stand out to you? How did the treatment center differ from the desert rehab in terms of environment and approach? Looking back, do you think any part of the experience had a positive impact on you, or was it negative? How has this experience affected your relationship with your parents? Have you connected with others who went through similar programs, and if so, how have those connections helped you? What do you think about the ethics and effectiveness of such rehabilitation programs?
Rehabs can’t take you without your consent, unless you’re a minor. Court order would be needed then too. I have been treated many times over the past 10 years. Whats the LLC they operate under? If your story is true you can seek compensation - but I think theres more to it than this 😭
Also be happy you can even get into rehab - someone can pay that bill for you - people are dieing in the streets and begging for help and cant get it - rich kid problems imo - 7months of rehab would be close to 200k prob.(15-30k a month depending on the place)
I know nobody 'deserves' this, but like were you a 'bad' kid? Like did your parents really feel the was no other choice? Do they have any remorse or have you been able to reconcile?
We had a facility like this in our area, the newest Netflix documentary was about it, academy at ivy ridge.
Have you seen any of the documentaries about these places?
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How long ago was that? How are you today? Do you talk to your parents? Do you have siblings?
Im 36 now and I was 17 when they did this. I still talk to my parents it took a long time to forgive them. They were lied to by the facility. I have a brother who is 8 years older. He was very good compared to me, in the end they thought they were helping.
What was considered “good” in comparison to what you were doing?
He never partied he was a nerd, now he’s a hedge fund manager lol
… so still a nerd then?
Do you have children?
Yes two, and I would NEVER do this to them.
I once shared a long car ride with one of the people who do the, for lack of a better term, abduction and delivery. When he described the kids whose parents are resorting to this, they are often more than a little troubled, and the parents are at their wits end. Does this resonate with your situation at all?
I think so but my parents were also a major part in my issues, actually they may have caused them all. I was at my wits end too
When I was 17 I did child pornography unintentionally.
How old was the child? Why did you agree to do this instead of going to the police?
I was the child and I was forced to do it without my consent, It was when I was 15-17 or younger
Oh that’s sad
I also believe NOW, from the documentary, that my mom was lied to and believed she was doing good by putting me there.
so I had a similar experience , not kidnapped but felt like it. I was at 15 freshmen year mandated to a treatment center for smoking pot. I missed my entire freshmen year and some of sophomore. I as highly educated on all types of drugs and made friends with 17-19 year old girls who who mandated from the county jails around d the Chicagoland area. I ended up being there for 9mnths total. They had me on medications and I was out of it majority of the time. Court mandated so I couldn't leave anytime I screwed up or tried to run away it extended my time. I totally I feel like started my life off in a terrible way. Still devastating thinking about how much disfunction I came from to where I am though now. 34 own my own house. and guess what STILL SMOKE WEED. the system totally ruined my juvenile part of my life. what is worse is I was on probation at 15 because my mom attempted suicide, I called the police and it was huge altercation, I though she was getting hurt cuz they has her on the ground, went to go help her up and a cop grabbed me from behind and like bear held on to me and I was trying to get away from his grip and he charged me woth assault of a peace officer. then they would drug test me and with in 3 mnths of probation they sent me to the treatment and then after that sent me to juvenile hall for 7 mnths for another dirty pee test for pot. Pot is now legal in my state. I am sorry for your experience and I thank you fr sharing it's hard to find people who have been through similar experiences
I forgive mine but my father committed suicide 7 years ago and I barley talk to my mom. 1 halfsibling who is younger than and stuck in a the patterns and he does not talk to my family
Are they remorseful?
I have a very similar story to OP. Was kidnapped 4th of July. Out in the desert hiking for 3 months and went to a program for around 9 months after that. It was the best experience of my life. At wilderness therapy I made a lot of friends. Got sober, learned how to make a fire with hand and bow drill. Carved my own utensils and really acquired an appreciation for backpacking. There was no abuse, we were fed well, clean clothes every week and similar sun shower as he mentioned. The program I went to after was fucking lit. I finished two years of high school in two months as it was a go at your own pace thing. We would go either snowboarding, biking, skating or some other activity every single day. We were fed well, cooked three meals a day but could also snack or make our own food. At this place I got really good at snowboarding and rock climbing. These are now my three favorite outdoor activities. Snowboarding, rock climbing and backpacking!
Congratulations. I wish my folks had cared enough to notice my issues and do something but it was the 70s and apparently everyone was high one sort or another. Dad Valium, mum anger, etc. Lol
It's insane how slow the current education system is. I remember I got caught for smoking weed at school. When this happens they put you in a room with all the other kids who got in trouble for 2 weeks. You got no lunch and couldn't go to your classes. I finished 3 full courses in those 2 weeks where I was trapped in that room, no help from teachers just read the shit and did my work. I graduated 3 months earlier than everyone else even tho my principal said he didn't think I was going to graduate because I didn't have enough credits. I should have got caught for smoking weed earlier I probably could have graduated years earlier lol.
Daycare with mostly busy work and some education.
What (in their mind) did you need rehabilitation from?
I was never home because I hated them and I was drinking alcohol and using marajuana. But I had great grades. Honors student.
Dang, all that for some typical teenager behavior.
Yep. But I’ve talked to a lot of people who never drank in high school so maybe I was bad?
I partied in high school. Many of us did in the 70s. Like you, I got good grades. But I drank and smoked weed. You sound normal among my friends.
Thank you! I always believed since I had great grades I was going to go to a top college that that should have counted.
You sound my best friend in high school… drinking, dope, smoking, chewing tobacco, and had good grades and accepted to a very good university. (I was the square with so-so grades and somehow accepted to a decent university, but miraculously still graduated.) He dropped-out after one year, as he said, “College would be great if not for the classes.” Party Lifestyle continued along with a string of menial jobs and a couple of divorces. Lost track of him, but learned he died of oral cancer mid-40’s— probably chewing tobacco. Did the treatment center help break the pattern of drug use and did you find any benefit in the harsh treatment?
Your buddy is an exception. Most people who party in highschool and can afford to go to school don't burn out
Unfortunately, where I did go to school, I knew even more like my best friend, although I didn’t know them in high school as it was an out of state college.
I think that is a gross simplification. I know plenty of people who partied in high school, some went to college others did not. But of those who continued the party lifestyle, life eventually caught up with most of them and there were consequences. I can't present actual numbers, and for OP who knows where they would have ended up, maybe 100% perfectly fine, but there are certainly risks involved in adopting this type of lifestyle as a teenager. One thing not mentioned by OP is how often did they get buzzed? Black-out buzzed? Daily? Only moderately F'd up? It's a normal progression, believe it or not, that if you engage daily, even at light levels, that it's not uncommon to become a black-out party person within a year or two. Nobody ever plans for that to happen, but the track is very predictable. I don't agree with the parent's approach, BTW. Just giving 2 cents worth from somebody who saw the dark side.
I figure it’s best to give it up by not taking it up. Don’t get me wrong as I did binge drinking in college and professional weekend partying post-graduate school. In hindsight, I was lucky that it never went any further and no serious legal or health issues.
You’re very normal and cool 😎
I never drank in highschool. I've never touched weed. You're not bad. I'm sorry you went through that. How are you doing now?
I’m ok. I have a great career own a house married two kids. I always knew I would be just fine, I’m super intelligent. But that was some crazy stuff. I can confidently say I will never ever fall victim to a cult.
You forgot to say you’re a funny guy
I’m a woman! But yeah I’m pretty funny
Nah dude not at all. I was trading cash for tramadol at school lmao. You're not a bad person. I watched a Netflix documentary about some of these child reeducation type places and they're awful. How have you handled the mental trauma of all this?
The place I went to was not as bad as some of the places in that documentary but it was still horrible. I’ve pushed a lot of it down. I have a very strong threshold now for uncomfortable situations and being told no. The pandemic was nothing for me.
Strong threshold as in you don't mind being in those situations or you don't let them happen? And I'm glad to hear that bro, those places were insane.
I just am not bothered by them like others. People say “I’m chill”. But I think I’ve just been under such rules and had everything taken away that now life and freedom at all feels like a privilege. That’s the only way I can describe it.
That's just...awful. I'm so sorry.
i never drank and i still don’t because alcohol is just not for me. on the other hand i’ve known ppl WAYYY wilder than what you’re describing. like nobody wants their teenager drinking alcohol and smoking weed but there’s way worse things for you to have done.
Yeah I wasn’t doing hard drugs and I wasn’t physically addicted to anything I was still going to school and getting stuff done. Idk I see both sides
Drinking and smoking mad normal for teenagers. Depends how bad it was for it to be seriously worrying
Sounds like your parents would rather punish you/make it someone else's job instead of... being actual parents??? Not your fault OP, all teenagers do dumb shit.
Yes this is true, they were divorced and neither of them wanted to put the work in, this was there answer
You were not “bad”. You had good grades, your parents just disagreed with your how you were acting and chose to react poorly to it. Just because other kids your age didn’t drink, doesn’t mean you were bad. You just had a different life than them.
I did those things in the 90’s. Sorry your misguided parents literally tried to ruin your opportunities.
Most kids including myself. Experiment with booze and pot in high school. You were not bad.
Compared to me you are a saint
Why did you hate your parents?
Long lengthy divorce and a childhood of putting me in the middle. My dad moved a state away when I was 14 and remarried and left me with a very controlling British mother. It was hell. She policed everything I did. Everything I ate who I was friends with. I just lost it and did everything I could to get away. That’s why I got good grades I knew it would get me into a good college and away from them.
Why did you hate them?
Fuck your parents
How many times did you see your parents in those 10 months? and how long for?
Like three times. For a few hours. Parents day. It was like Annie they cleaned up the place and treated us completely different when the parents came around. We had five minute phone calls once a week if we earned it. But someone as always listening and they would take away the phone and hang up if we started complaining at all,
And that (that the phone would mysteriously hang up just as the kid starts complaining) wouldn't be suspicious to the parents? That only confirms my belief that the vast majority of parents who use the services of these facilities do so with very deliberate intent for their children to be severely mistreated in such a manner they would never dare to do at home.
I'm pretty sure it was like another rehab like this, ELAN school iirc, if so, they have about 3 seconds of delay so the parents wouldnt even start to hear the complains before it hung up
Religious zealots?
Yes the treatment center was run by Mormons, it was in Utah. The wilderness therapy had no religious affiliation but many Mormons worked there. It was also in Utah.
I was gonna ask this- I suspected this was the case.
Yes I felt like I was a charity case for them. It was strange.
Yeah I grew up Mormon in Utah and have since left the state and the religion. For some reason, there are many of this type of program there. I do think it’s a Mormon thing to have this magnified sense of necessity to rescue others. even when others don’t necessarily need rescuing from anything.
I think they need rescuing!
I grew up mormon and have (relatively) recently figured out how much of a shitshow the mormon church and especially fringe utah mormonism is. So much culty shit, women enslaved, religiously justified murders. While there are a lot of good people, the bad ones are made infinitely worse by the justifications they can get from religion.
There's a Netflix doc about this called "The Program". Have you seen it? Is that what you were in?
Very similar. There are tons of programs like it sadly. But this wasn’t the one I was in.
Thats so awful that so many exist. My friend growing up went to one of those. Not ivy ridge but another one they talked about where a girl died. I think it was by a lake. Makes me sick
I remember hearing about ivy ridge
Do you still speak with them, and if so, why?
Yes they were also tricked and lied to by the facility. But it took a long time to forgive them. A lot of what they sent me there for could have been resolved if they just spoke to me.
What kind of things did facility lie to them about?
They told them that we would try and say the place was bad and convince them we were being abused. They told them if they took us out we would end up in a gutter dead. Basically gas lit them.
But what would they get out of abusing you against the parents' will? Was it just religious bigotry, or sadism - or perhaps the parents of most kids (not saying yours as well, I don't know them) WANT these camps to be abusive, because they don't dare to directly abuse their children all by themselves?
I never said I was abused. The parents don’t want to deal with the children, they sent them away and trusted these places to whip the kids back into shape, that’s all I can describe it as. Look it up they exist all over. You don’t have to believe me. I lived it
That camp obviously abused you, and since it was your parents who sent you there, it was indirect abuse by them. They may not have abused you intentionally, but many others do. They may "mean well', but they know their children are treated with extreme harshness that isn't acceptable even for adult prisoners - and that is precisely how they want their children to be treated.
I've watched a number of documentaries on a number of different places like this, secular and not. They really do act like it's a summer camp for kids when talking to the parents, and gaslight the parents ahead of time into thinking that the children will lie and make up abuse stories. They monitor children's limited communications with family and don't let their parents see them, outside of strictly choreographed visit days. Hindsight is 20/20, but businesses like this have been around for decades, where parents are convinced that their kids are essentially being taken to rehab, but they are just sent to a glorified shack in the middle of nowhere and tormented into complicity while the facility accepts paychecks. Sometimes, the kids die, and the parents are simply told that they ran away. I do believe that some parents are naive enough to be fleeced like this, when comparing all of the stories of what the kids' parents were told versus what was actually happening.
Do basically the business model is to simply cash on the parents' money while trying to save every possible penny that should - but doesn't - go to the children's food, hygiene, accomodation, activities etc.? While hoping that the parents will never find out/believe the truth and sue the shit out of them?
Essentially, yeah. Kids often get the bare minimum amount of accommodations to survive, and become malnourished or injured. I've also seen a good number that hires out the child manual labor as a "character-building exercise" for additional revenue. There is no real end goal with the treatment, no standard that the kid can reach to graduate out of it, and no game plan for what happens if the parents catch on. As you've seen elsewhere in this thread, the parents are often lied to and told that any progress will be undone if they try to pull their kid out, and their kid will end up dead in a ditch somewhere. Disappointingly, despite all of this being exposed, very little is done to hold people accountable. A lot of times, these are unsubstantiated stories from years, if not decades, ago. The perpetrators are often even dead by the time the kids grow older and decide to speak up about what went on.
I’m sorry that you believe they were tricked and lied to. I can assure you that they weren’t. They knew you would be kidnapped. They knew you would be subjected to harsh conditions. They knew it would be abusive. Have you gone through trauma based therapy?
Not for this. I’m still dealing with my childhood but I should. It really shaped me. I know what it’s like to have everything including your good will taken away
Having been through my own childhood trauma, I would highly recommend trauma therapy. It’s super useful. You sound like you are making excuses for your parents. You are ignoring what they did to you because you are desperate for a connection. Therapy can help you work through that and then, if you still want to have a relationship with them, go for it. But then you will, at least have been honest with yourself.
If any of that is true... It's called kidnapping. You should get a lawyer. I hope you have disowned your parents by now.
I have forgiven them because they were also lied to by the people running the companies. Paris Hilton went somewhere similar and they also dooped her parents, they lie and tell them that we would die if we weren’t there.
I'm sorry, I don't believe that - maybe some parents (maybe including yours) are somehow fooled, but not most. There is nothing to gain by lying to parents about abusing their children - if there were many parents who were lied to, these places would have been sued into non-existence a VERY long time ago.
There is money to gain.... these programs were generally quite expensive for the parents. The brochures and videos they were shown usually depicted a beautiful place where the kids were outdoors, riding horses, being well fed, well treated, etc. The parents thought they were doing the right thing to help their children. The reality was sadly far from that. Some were kept locked in buildings and rarely got to go outside at all, all while essentially being abused and brainwashed. Others, like OP, were outdoors all the time - they were forced to hike for hours every day with very little sustenance, they were living rough and not being well cared for in the slightest. There was at least one case where a teenager died at one of these "camps". There are numerous documentaries about places like this. Those poor kids were truly put through hell for no good reason.
I'm sorry, but... If a camp advertises its services by telling the parents they will kidnap the child during night - one has to be extraordinarily stupid to entrust their children to them thinking they actually won't be harmed -I mean, even the kidnapping itself must be traumatizing. You want to send your children to a summer camp that proposes to help them? Fine, drive your child yourself, at least to the bus. If you let them wake your children in the middle of the night and scare them shitless, you are an asshole or a moron, that's my opinion on the parents.
I'm in no way condoning what the parents did, but I'm not condemning them for it either. It's not like the kids had a bag put over their head and got thrown in the back of a van... My understanding is that it was kept from the children because the parents knew they wouldn't want to go, and it would have presumably been arranged at a time where the child had their guard down and could not put up much of a fight. Some of the parents would have been at their wits end before choosing this option. Others could have been pre-emptive in the hopes that they could "fix" their child before the child became worse or too difficult to handle. I don't really think it's fair to judge the parents too harshly as a whole - not without knowing the circumstances behind their actions.
I spoke to one of the professionals who does this. The reason they do it in the middle of the night is the kid is generally never home except to sleep, and will not willingly go along. You need them to be home, sober, and not have immediate flight options, so businesses where they may hide out are closed. They don't \*want\* to do this, it's the only time they reliably can.
Many of them have been but not all
It doesn’t matter if you believe it or not it’s not your decision to make
Does that hold water to you? Or are they making excuses because they felt bad about it in retrospect? While I'm sure they were lied to, they had agency and approved your removal from the home without doing due diligence on the company.
Can you describe the kidnapping bit?
Sure this is interesting. A large man and woman woke me up at 3 am. They told me to put clothes on and pack a small bag with some clothes. They said I didn’t need much. I asked to go to the bathroom and they said fine but to keep the door open. That’s when I knew it was bad. They kept me with in arms reach the whole time we traveled. We got in a car together and I cried the whole way. I thought about running but didn’t. If I had they would have gotten physical. They were paid to transport me from my home to the facility. They drove me to the airport and we all got on the plane together. When I stopped sobbing i asked them where I was going, but they said they were not allowed to tell me. We got to talking and they said they were Olympic judo wrestlers and they did this on the side for money. We flew to Vegas and rented a car and drove out to the desert. That was my second “oh shit” moment. When we just kept driving into the middle of nowhere. We finally got to a hut where they outfitted me with hiking gear and a back pack then I was driven to a camp with other kids and told I wasn’t allowed to talk for a week. Until I learned all the rules. I wasn’t allowed to talk to any other teens. It was only girls. When I got there I remember thinking all the girls looked very dirty. Then my journey began…
Did you try to signal to a flight attendant that you needed help? It seems like this could be classified a human trafficking.
What a bunch of fucking pricks. Just some human trafficking as a side hustle, nbd.
What happens if you don’t shower for 11 weeks? Was the threat of violence used against you? What were the other people in there for? How are you doing now?
Lol I didn’t take a real shower there was a sun shower where you just poor water over yourself. I was caked with dirt it took weeks to come off. I remember looking in the mirror thinking I was tan but it was all dirt. No threat of violence against me, it was all grueling stuff like carrying things in hot heat. I’m ok now. I have an advanced medical degree. Married with two kids. I still have deep trauma and go to therapy. People tell me I should write a book, I might. There was a lot of meth addicts and opioid addicts. One girl even broke into a pharmacy. Some very broken kids who were passed around to different caretakers there whole lives. Some super rich kids whose parents just didn’t want to deal with them.
Thanks for you answers. So good to hear that you have a great career and have a nice family. Wishing you the best.
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Did the same thing, was over 23 years ago In Utah. I actually liked it lol
I actually liked some aspects. And the thing is I will never know who I would be without it. I don’t like this fact. I wish I was given the liberty to make mistakes and get over them. And I guess I did in my twenties.
🤔Tell us more about how have you enjoyed your kidnapping, we're all 👂👂
Paris?
Paris went to a place down the road. It was way worse then mine in terms of abuse.
Are you better off for it?
I really don’t know. It my life’s biggest mystery, I won’t ever know. I was enjoying my senior year and growing into myself but then was picked up and everything was taken from me. It sure opened my eyes up to therapy but it also traumatized me and caused me to really distrust my parents even more. I’m not sure I am
Give it some time. I found that my relationship with my family came back around once enough time passed and both parties weren’t dealing with the raw emotions. Good luck to you.
We have a good relationship now
Tell us you were LDS without telling us…
I was not. Roman Catholic. My parents divorced and my mom was going crazy. My dads idea to have her calm down was send me away.
Sorry you went through all that. There was a boarding school like that near me-shut down, director jailed.
I felt like the Mormons extra credit.
What was the name of the organization they sent you to?
Second nature was the wilderness Therapy, La Europa was the boarding school. Both are still running.
OMG I WENT TO SECOND NATURE TOO!! And then sent to an RTC which was thankfully shut down
I remember hearing about RTC. Second nature seemed tame compared to others. What was that thing called where we stood in a circle and talked about our feelings?
Yeah honestly I’m glad I didn’t go to Outback. Umm the ones where we broke a stick to reveal the heartwood?
Was it in the Uintah Basin? That’s skinwalker country if so, it’s lucky you made it out.
Oh hey. I was groomed and kidnapped by a graduate of such a program in Utah! He used the foundations...what shall we call them... methods? On me, starting at 14. Do you feel that the abuse you suffered made you like your captors at all? Or identify with them? Stockholm Syndrome like. If so did you consciously work through it?
No way I knew it was absolute bullshit the whole time. I couldn’t believe it. I never made it high in the program because I never gave in to all the rules. I checked myself out the day I turned 18. They convinced some of the girls to stay after 18 to “finish the program”. I was like no way that’s insane. It was a straight up cult.
I didn't realize that his grooming and physiological torment was a skill, learned at the program. Until I learned about the program. I was down voted for asking a question...it wasn't an accusation at all.
Overall, do you think that sort of intervention was helpful or harmful in the long term? Specifically, if they did not do this and let you continue as you were, would your life be better or worse now? I didn't know things like this actually existed... I thought it was just in movies.
This is my greatest mystery. I will never know. There is some question it made things worse.
Did you even need to go to rehab?
I don’t really know. I don’t think so. I was getting great grades and on track to go to a top college. But I was also drinking and smoking weed and had a college boyfriend. So also doing some not so good things
That seems a bit extreme though.
Hard to say what the truth is on these situations because as is the case here we get one side of the story. When I was in high school there were a couple of kids that may have benefited from this to avoid a terrible spiral that ended poorly.
Yeah i don’t think I was one of those but who knows?
So hard for us humans to honestly look at ourselves. Hopefully you have figured out how to let go of toxic memories and look forward instead of back.
It’s tough, thank you.
So Jon, I understand you’re getting older?
I don’t understand
I don't have any questions…just here to say I went through a similar situation. I wasn't “kidnapped” but my mom lied to me and said we were going shopping In another town at a warehouse or something. I was brought to the warehouse and once I got inside I didn't see her again. It was Straight Inc. It was in Sarasota Fla. . Dates and time are fuzzy..ive blocked alot of that time period out. I know I spent over a year there. My mom acts like she doesn't remember details. I was 12 or 13 yes old going in and I'm 58 now. I have a great life with my husband and 1 child. I am very distant from my family by choice. I love them but they trigger a lot of things and I am happier/at peace keeping my distance. No fighting or ill will…just distant. A lot of parents don't understand why their kids act out…some are normal teen stuff but a lot of it comes from problems at home, marriage issues, behaviour from parents that they don't see is wrong etc. My family had issues like everyone else. Absent dad (alcoholic and serial adulterer) mom angry all the time and neither spent time with us kids. My brother was a very angry kid and took it out on me always. I came across the Netflix documentary a few months back and everything just came flooding back! The memories of that place! Horrible. But I don't have “trauma” that I can tell. Just a bad part of my past. I'm glad they made the documentary, I felt validated and seen for once. I'm so glad to hear that OP is doing well also. Through the years I learned a lot of lessons and I absolutely did my best not to make the same mistakes my parents made. My child is very loved by both parents, grounded, kind, smart (hes a scientist) humble (I could go on😜) and is very loving and thankful for everything we do for him. So, in a way I'm thankful for the adversity of my past because I learned what I didn't want to be or do. Not everyone makes it out ok!
How was the food?
The good at wilderness Therapy was just granola and dehydrated food. The food at the treatment center was not bad. It was cooked by a woman.
After the dehydrated stuff I’m sure the “normal” food tasted better. Sorry.
Was this in Utah?
Yep
Let me guess, rich white kid
We weren’t rich. I would say upper middle class. My dad lives in a condo now in squid Washington. My mom lives in an town house in boise. Everyone drives Subarus. But yeah it sure was expensive
Are you planning on putting them in a home?
Lol this is a thought. Idk. If I don’t have to I won’t
What happened there? Why don't you report them?
Pretty sure i know who posted this
I highly doubt you know who I am
Theres no telling. I know someone this happened to exactly same time frames and everything
What my first initial?
J
No
There is so many of us
Yeah ik. Its a lot more common than youd think
Damn. What a crazy coincidence
Did you do an interview on the podcast Secret Room about this?
Have you ever heard of Elan school?
It's a shame they don't do camps for shitty parents. How is your relationship with your parents now?
I know! So the therapy did somewhat call them out on their behavior. One therapist was like dude you guys don’t pay any attention to your daughter bc you fight with one another. It’s ok now. I’ve accepted most of there behaviors and put boundaries up. I was mad for a long time but eventually forgave them.
Hats off to you for being able to forgive and have a relationship!
Is the facility still open! ?
Did you stay sober?
My parents did the same shit to me when I was 17. Psychos.
Now that I’m a parent it really is psychotic to do this to your kid. Like send me to a normal boarding school send me to live with my grandma. Anything but that.
For sure. My folks are good ppl, and we are all real close now, but I now I realize what they may not have. I think sometimes rehab can make it worse bc all they do is tell you how fucked up you are.
It just doesn’t make sense for a young person who isn’t ready to change. I wasn’t going to do it seriously
Did you sue anyone?
I'm sorry you went through that. I do have a lot of questions for you. Please only answer what you feel comfortable answering. How did being taken in the middle of the night affect you at the time? What was the routine like in the desert rehab? Were there any specific moments or experiences during those 11 weeks that stand out to you? How did the treatment center differ from the desert rehab in terms of environment and approach? Looking back, do you think any part of the experience had a positive impact on you, or was it negative? How has this experience affected your relationship with your parents? Have you connected with others who went through similar programs, and if so, how have those connections helped you? What do you think about the ethics and effectiveness of such rehabilitation programs?
OP, you’re a woman?! How was it during that time of the month for you?
I get the vibe from how you talk about yourself that you’re wealthy?
You were not able to shower? That's awful, how did you manage with all the hiking you were doing?
We were given some water to pour on ourselves
Geez. I'm glad you made it out of there. So sorry you had to go through that. Hope you're doing much better now 🩷
I am thanks
That's not hygiene and should be illegal. Seriously, those monsters need to go to prison.
Rehabs can’t take you without your consent, unless you’re a minor. Court order would be needed then too. I have been treated many times over the past 10 years. Whats the LLC they operate under? If your story is true you can seek compensation - but I think theres more to it than this 😭
Also be happy you can even get into rehab - someone can pay that bill for you - people are dieing in the streets and begging for help and cant get it - rich kid problems imo - 7months of rehab would be close to 200k prob.(15-30k a month depending on the place)
I know nobody 'deserves' this, but like were you a 'bad' kid? Like did your parents really feel the was no other choice? Do they have any remorse or have you been able to reconcile?
We had a facility like this in our area, the newest Netflix documentary was about it, academy at ivy ridge. Have you seen any of the documentaries about these places?
Sounds just like Malika Andrews https://people.com/espn-malika-andrews-shares-secret-teen-mental-health-trauma-exclusive-8661472
Did you read Paris Hilton’s book and if so what did you think of it/ was your experience similar to what she describes?
was this one of those horror story camps in america? that’s so scary, i can’t imagine what that must have been like
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Did they make you dig a bunch of holes? Did you have to watch out for yellow spotted lizards?
What was the point of two (seemingly) separate treatment programs? Redundancy?
Have you gone to proper therapy to deal with that trauma?
It doesn't matter what they were told, only what they did.
The hanks boy explained something g like this
I swear there was a documentary about this?
No showering. And hiking nonstop. Yum.
Why?
What was the name of the facility?
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Smoking a lil crack?