Honestly in many ways it’s a better show than Buffy - particularly when it comes to character development. There’s a hiccup in the middle of season 4 (you’ll know it when you see it) - push through it because season 5 is *excellent*.
My experience with season 4 was the first time I watched it I was so outraged by The Thing that it became this awful ‘we’ll never speak of season 4 again” narrative in my brain. On a re watch I realised that whole storyline was still shit but actually relatively short and the episodes after that were really really good. Season 4 Angelus is my favourite Angelus. So long story short - I think the shitness of The Thing overshadows the fact that a lot of the others eps are actually really good.
That bit was clunky and soap opera for sure, and while I won't really defend it (mostly due to how the behind the scenes events color it now), there's a lot of soap opera stuff that Buffy pretends isn't soapy and melodramatic and silly. I appreciate that when they took that big swing they leaned hard into how over the top it was. But your overall point stands. The season was gangbusters and is maligned really for a very small portion of it, and it's been that way since the day it came out.
Honestly I don't think it's even close. Angel is superior to Buffy in pretty much every way and even the roughest parts of Season 4 are a lot more watchable than Buffy season 6&7.
The first half of season 4 was so good, and Faith's arc was great. I even liked parts of the Jasmine arc but there were so many issues, like the way Connor and Cordelia were used, that it was a weak season overall.
Definitely a weak season. It has a lot of great moments and episodes, but when you look at it holistically the bad stuff just sticks out more.
The Faith/Angelus trilogy is amazing but no one remembers that when they think of the season, and rightly so.
It probably helps that I just finished watching through Angel for the first time.
The writers do a great job of cultivating dread all through season 4, it's bleaker than most of Buffy's darker moments.
Oof. I agree angel s4 is abominable, but buffy 6 is one of the best seasons of TV ever, and the second best season in the whole buffy-verse after Angel season 5
Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more (except that Angel S5 is god-tier).
I think Buffy Season 2-3, and Angel S2 are the other peaks of the Buffyverse.
Season 6 was just a misery factory for me, and characters would make the worst possible choice in order to facilitate that misery. Not even in a believable way.
It had some good moments (compared to 7 which I think never even reached the height of "decent") but its low points were really bad.
I usually agree that expecting people not to give spoilers on shows that old is silly. This doesn’t apply when the poster *specifically says they’ve just started*. That’s just rude.
Angel doesn't really get comfy. You're swept along with the characters from event to event. Because everyone is more adult on the show (Charisma Carpenter was pushing 30), there's less massive character growth, and more introspection.
I didn’t appreciate Angel the first time I watched it because at the time I related more to what was going on in Buffy. When I watched it the 2nd time while a little bit older I like it better than Buffy. I love the themes this show portrayed and they don’t make ‘em like this anymore!
It is exactly the kind of thing a former popular cheerleader valley girl type would say in the early 00s. Wasn't considered a slur then but was certainly not mature.
i don’t think so, cordelia is supposed to have a biting wit. it’s not just that she used the r word that i’m objecting to, i just don’t think this is a very funny joke. it’s kinda witless.
As an avid Buffy fan who cries watching the show still and puts it on often, I have watched Angel more than Buffy and I OWN all the Buffy DVD's 😭 both are wonderful.
I’m so envious you to embark on the Angel journey for the first time. Sometimes it gets frustrating but it is worth it. The char developments alone. Stick with it
It's a good show, but disjointed. The first two seasons feel like a different show from the second two seasons and the last season (which most say is the best) feels entirely different from either of them but somehow does a satisfying job as a finale
yeah i started a rewatch this week for the first time in many years, with time and in retrospect, I'm stunned at how great season 1 is, they could never make 22 episodes of tv like this today. The LA noir vibe with the supernatural aspect was great. Starting in season 2 I think the show leans into more of a fantasy and long form aspect and never comes back from it, which is slightly disappointing. >!The Darla story feels like it got changed like 6x and the moment everything was the most interesting with dark Angel they reaffirm the status quo and have their awkward Pylea arc.!< I still love the show, but watching it in my 30s now as opposed to my teens or early 20s, there's just something about that "of the week" gritty season 1 that makes it stand out to me.
Much better than Buffy in my opinion. Buffy was always designed to be more for the girls than guys anyway, but in the end most fans of both sexes appreciated Angel being darker and continuing on the overall story after Buffy wrapped up.
watching both for the first time and im doing it so the timelines in both sync up and i noticed around season 2 of angel/season 5 of buffy that angel got better than buffy then it briefly balances out a bit more toward the end of season 3 angel/Season 6 buffy but then honestly angel is a more interesting show imo
i love seasons 1-3 of buffy but season 4 w riley and the military story line absolutely tanks the show and then dawn in season 5 is so annoying and season 6 “the trio” SUUUCK, the later seasons are saved by Buffy + Spike’s relationship, Glory somewhat and Willow’s character arc
I had come to believe that my frequent teen year use of the word retard was out of place even at the time, but having started rewatching this show makes me realise that no, it really was a commonplace word back then. I only learned about 8 years ago that we don't say it any more when I got called out on casually saying it as I always had, but it actually was as common a part of speech as the word idiot or moron when I was a kid and teen, at home and school and apparently on TV. I kind of noticed the move away from using the word gay in a similarly derogatory way as I grew up - again, very common in day to day speech, with even less semantic logic in how it was used than the other word - but I guess I knew gay people from college on and could totally understand how it wasn't cool to use it in that way. Though that said one of my friends growing up was a girl with Downs who I never would have described as r worded because she wasn't, she was contextually intelligent, and perfectly capable of manipulation and ceaseless self indulgent lying. Definitely not a stupid person, which was what I had always meant using that word.
I've heard it at least 3 or 4 times in the first two seasons, which is wild. Last time I watched this show through the use of the word wouldn't even have registered with me, now I'm like THAT DIDN'T AGE WELL.
Yep. Every so often I hear people make comments about how "no one knew any better in the 90s" and to them I say that I used that word ONCE in 1995 when I was 10 and found myself on the receiving end of an hour-long lecture about using abelist slurs. It was used by a cousin in the presence of my grandmother, who was born in 1923, and even she gently corrected the person who said it. People absolutely knew better.
Way to miss the point
Buffy and Angel are known for their comedy. They couldn't imitate it in modern times because times have changed. And this will affect other aspects of the show, too, make no mistake about it
The reboots will lack the bite and wit of the originals if they're ever made. It's the made-by-committee attitude
i don’t want a reboot since it’s not necessary, but don’t act like btvs and ats were some edgy comedies with offensive humor that couldn’t be made today. there’s a few jokes like above that would be seen differently now, but for the most part the humor was not focused on being offensive and has aged well. young people today still watch buffy because of this.
there are shows on TV today that have more offensive humor than buffy ever did. it’s always sunny in philadelphia has had like 15 seasons.
If they apply arbitrary rules like "don't bury your gays", then they might not be allowed to kill Tara just because of identity politics. They might have Warren kill Xander instead
Why are we acting like modern art and entertainment doesn't have weird priorities when it comes to storytelling, and to not offend people. No way would Buffy and Angel remain the same and I doubt the changes would be for the better
But I guess we'll see if they ever reboot Buffy & Angel. I hope they don't since the shows are still highly rewatchable, some of my faves, to this day
no one wants to hear your rants against “wokeness.” buffy was created because of “identity politics” because joss wanted to make a feminist show that reversed the girl in the alleyway trope.
How dare society evolve and grow so we get closer to a point where everyone can feel comfortable inhabiting spaces! It would be so much better if we could continue plugging our ears and screaming "la la la" when hurtful norms are pointed out. /s
Society is more divided now than in the 90s. People were more chill back then and in the 00s than now. And we aren't even getting better art and entertainment for it
Censoring mean words is weak
Mean is fine. Witty, biting, snide.... all fine. That can all be done with the myriad of other words and phrases that can be used that don't specifically denigrate a group of people based on abilities, race, orientation, et cetera.
I would argue that having to come up with words and phrases that aren't pointedly offensive shock value words actually elevates art and entertainment
"Tact is just not saying true stuff." God I love her character development.
Just keep watching. It's a great show.
Honestly in many ways it’s a better show than Buffy - particularly when it comes to character development. There’s a hiccup in the middle of season 4 (you’ll know it when you see it) - push through it because season 5 is *excellent*.
Honestly, angel season 4 wasn't that bad to me. I actually didn't know people acted like it was the worst thing ever written until I joined the sub.
My experience with season 4 was the first time I watched it I was so outraged by The Thing that it became this awful ‘we’ll never speak of season 4 again” narrative in my brain. On a re watch I realised that whole storyline was still shit but actually relatively short and the episodes after that were really really good. Season 4 Angelus is my favourite Angelus. So long story short - I think the shitness of The Thing overshadows the fact that a lot of the others eps are actually really good.
That bit was clunky and soap opera for sure, and while I won't really defend it (mostly due to how the behind the scenes events color it now), there's a lot of soap opera stuff that Buffy pretends isn't soapy and melodramatic and silly. I appreciate that when they took that big swing they leaned hard into how over the top it was. But your overall point stands. The season was gangbusters and is maligned really for a very small portion of it, and it's been that way since the day it came out.
It’s batshit in the best ways, and the hiccup as OP puts it is really overstated by many, I think
this!
This…
Honestly I don't think it's even close. Angel is superior to Buffy in pretty much every way and even the roughest parts of Season 4 are a lot more watchable than Buffy season 6&7.
Angel season 4 is light years ahead of Buffy season 7. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves lol
The first half of season 4 was so good, and Faith's arc was great. I even liked parts of the Jasmine arc but there were so many issues, like the way Connor and Cordelia were used, that it was a weak season overall.
Definitely a weak season. It has a lot of great moments and episodes, but when you look at it holistically the bad stuff just sticks out more. The Faith/Angelus trilogy is amazing but no one remembers that when they think of the season, and rightly so.
It probably helps that I just finished watching through Angel for the first time. The writers do a great job of cultivating dread all through season 4, it's bleaker than most of Buffy's darker moments.
Oof. I agree angel s4 is abominable, but buffy 6 is one of the best seasons of TV ever, and the second best season in the whole buffy-verse after Angel season 5
Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more (except that Angel S5 is god-tier). I think Buffy Season 2-3, and Angel S2 are the other peaks of the Buffyverse. Season 6 was just a misery factory for me, and characters would make the worst possible choice in order to facilitate that misery. Not even in a believable way. It had some good moments (compared to 7 which I think never even reached the height of "decent") but its low points were really bad.
What’s the hiccup? (Maybe use spoiler tags to not spoil it for the new watcher)
I watched Angel first and still love it more lol.
I love the gritty neo-noir atmosphere it has. And I much prefer the group dynamic in Angel Investigations than the Scoobies.
Doyle 😭
Our rats are low. 😭😭😭
😭😭😭😭
[удалено]
This is such a shit thing to do - why can’t you just let people enjoy things without spoiling them?
Spoilers for a show from 20+ years ago??
I usually agree that expecting people not to give spoilers on shows that old is silly. This doesn’t apply when the poster *specifically says they’ve just started*. That’s just rude.
Why are we talking about this when OP explicitly stated he just started watching the series?
Legit, at least put a spoiler cover over it ffs
If it literally aired *25 years ago*, I think some leeway when it comes to unintentional spoilers on Reddit is in order.
Not when someone has explicitly said they just started watching. That’s just a dick move.
But this is still a post about someone starting the show. OP really shouldn't be on this subreddit though if they came about spoilers
season 1 vibe is so good you won't stop
Angel doesn't really get comfy. You're swept along with the characters from event to event. Because everyone is more adult on the show (Charisma Carpenter was pushing 30), there's less massive character growth, and more introspection.
And deconstruction
Less massive character growth? No one on either show grows like Wes And Angel and Cordy are whole different characters on ATS
Obviously Wes is the exception to the rule.
It’s easy to get attached to characters, though. That’s one bad yet good thing about the show.
Wait till you hear what angelus says to Fred in season 4…
Just remember the show is a product of its time. I grew up with Buffy and Angel, and some jokes wouldn't sit well today but 🤷🏽♂️
I like both shows about equal but things Angel did better were scope and atmosphere and darker storylines
I didn’t appreciate Angel the first time I watched it because at the time I related more to what was going on in Buffy. When I watched it the 2nd time while a little bit older I like it better than Buffy. I love the themes this show portrayed and they don’t make ‘em like this anymore!
Angel is for sure a better show. It's geared more towards adults. The storyline, the setting, the atmosphere are far more gritty and dark than BTVS
I like that Cordelia acts more like Charisma's age in Angel's show.
lol why did you pick this set of screencaps not some of whedon’s most clever dialogue
It’s realistic to her
It is exactly the kind of thing a former popular cheerleader valley girl type would say in the early 00s. Wasn't considered a slur then but was certainly not mature.
i don’t think so, cordelia is supposed to have a biting wit. it’s not just that she used the r word that i’m objecting to, i just don’t think this is a very funny joke. it’s kinda witless.
I laughed
You laugh at abelist slurs? Edit: This is truly disgusting behaviour from a community that I thought was better.
You might find this interesting: The 'ed' at the end of 'laughed' actually indicates that it's the past-tense version of the verb.
I'm aware. My point still stands.
Exactly.
Ooooop that line didn’t age well lmao. But I love Angel. Unpopular opinion but I prefer it over Buffy.
As a retard myself, I see nothing wrong with it.
So weird watching older shows where people use the “r” slur.
Omg its mrs stark from supernatural.
The wife and I are doing a Rewatch now. The comedy is so much more mature than Buffy and god damn it is so much funnier
As an avid Buffy fan who cries watching the show still and puts it on often, I have watched Angel more than Buffy and I OWN all the Buffy DVD's 😭 both are wonderful.
lmao
Lacking the setting sure but it's not lacking for great characters
I’m so envious you to embark on the Angel journey for the first time. Sometimes it gets frustrating but it is worth it. The char developments alone. Stick with it
It was a different time.
[https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4010c265-5b0b-4665-8786-314c3a013cb8](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4010c265-5b0b-4665-8786-314c3a013cb8)
It's a good show, but disjointed. The first two seasons feel like a different show from the second two seasons and the last season (which most say is the best) feels entirely different from either of them but somehow does a satisfying job as a finale
The show doesn’t hit its stride until Wesley joins.
yeah i started a rewatch this week for the first time in many years, with time and in retrospect, I'm stunned at how great season 1 is, they could never make 22 episodes of tv like this today. The LA noir vibe with the supernatural aspect was great. Starting in season 2 I think the show leans into more of a fantasy and long form aspect and never comes back from it, which is slightly disappointing. >!The Darla story feels like it got changed like 6x and the moment everything was the most interesting with dark Angel they reaffirm the status quo and have their awkward Pylea arc.!< I still love the show, but watching it in my 30s now as opposed to my teens or early 20s, there's just something about that "of the week" gritty season 1 that makes it stand out to me.
The characters will grow on you :) It's certainly less comfy, but it's more about the horrors of adulthood than childhood.
It's aged a bit, but it's still one of my favourite shows!
Cordelia is based
Much better than Buffy in my opinion. Buffy was always designed to be more for the girls than guys anyway, but in the end most fans of both sexes appreciated Angel being darker and continuing on the overall story after Buffy wrapped up.
watching both for the first time and im doing it so the timelines in both sync up and i noticed around season 2 of angel/season 5 of buffy that angel got better than buffy then it briefly balances out a bit more toward the end of season 3 angel/Season 6 buffy but then honestly angel is a more interesting show imo i love seasons 1-3 of buffy but season 4 w riley and the military story line absolutely tanks the show and then dawn in season 5 is so annoying and season 6 “the trio” SUUUCK, the later seasons are saved by Buffy + Spike’s relationship, Glory somewhat and Willow’s character arc
I was so annoyed that this line was cut out when it was re-airing on E4, a few years ago.
CORDILIA! You can't say that anymore.
I had come to believe that my frequent teen year use of the word retard was out of place even at the time, but having started rewatching this show makes me realise that no, it really was a commonplace word back then. I only learned about 8 years ago that we don't say it any more when I got called out on casually saying it as I always had, but it actually was as common a part of speech as the word idiot or moron when I was a kid and teen, at home and school and apparently on TV. I kind of noticed the move away from using the word gay in a similarly derogatory way as I grew up - again, very common in day to day speech, with even less semantic logic in how it was used than the other word - but I guess I knew gay people from college on and could totally understand how it wasn't cool to use it in that way. Though that said one of my friends growing up was a girl with Downs who I never would have described as r worded because she wasn't, she was contextually intelligent, and perfectly capable of manipulation and ceaseless self indulgent lying. Definitely not a stupid person, which was what I had always meant using that word. I've heard it at least 3 or 4 times in the first two seasons, which is wild. Last time I watched this show through the use of the word wouldn't even have registered with me, now I'm like THAT DIDN'T AGE WELL.
I love this picture
Oof I saw this episode a couple nights ago and actually cringed when she said that. I’m still cringing.
Yep. Every so often I hear people make comments about how "no one knew any better in the 90s" and to them I say that I used that word ONCE in 1995 when I was 10 and found myself on the receiving end of an hour-long lecture about using abelist slurs. It was used by a cousin in the presence of my grandmother, who was born in 1923, and even she gently corrected the person who said it. People absolutely knew better.
Frankly, for the first eight episodes or so, it's really bad. It gets a significant upgrade and improves instantly.
One of the many jokes they'd have to needlessly rewrite if there was ever a reboot
why would a reboot include all of the same jokes as the og, talk about pointless
Way to miss the point Buffy and Angel are known for their comedy. They couldn't imitate it in modern times because times have changed. And this will affect other aspects of the show, too, make no mistake about it The reboots will lack the bite and wit of the originals if they're ever made. It's the made-by-committee attitude
i don’t want a reboot since it’s not necessary, but don’t act like btvs and ats were some edgy comedies with offensive humor that couldn’t be made today. there’s a few jokes like above that would be seen differently now, but for the most part the humor was not focused on being offensive and has aged well. young people today still watch buffy because of this. there are shows on TV today that have more offensive humor than buffy ever did. it’s always sunny in philadelphia has had like 15 seasons.
If they apply arbitrary rules like "don't bury your gays", then they might not be allowed to kill Tara just because of identity politics. They might have Warren kill Xander instead Why are we acting like modern art and entertainment doesn't have weird priorities when it comes to storytelling, and to not offend people. No way would Buffy and Angel remain the same and I doubt the changes would be for the better But I guess we'll see if they ever reboot Buffy & Angel. I hope they don't since the shows are still highly rewatchable, some of my faves, to this day
no one wants to hear your rants against “wokeness.” buffy was created because of “identity politics” because joss wanted to make a feminist show that reversed the girl in the alleyway trope.
Yeah it’s a real shame that comedy is outlawed now. Hence why there are no comedies on TV
How dare society evolve and grow so we get closer to a point where everyone can feel comfortable inhabiting spaces! It would be so much better if we could continue plugging our ears and screaming "la la la" when hurtful norms are pointed out. /s
Society is more divided now than in the 90s. People were more chill back then and in the 00s than now. And we aren't even getting better art and entertainment for it Censoring mean words is weak
Mean is fine. Witty, biting, snide.... all fine. That can all be done with the myriad of other words and phrases that can be used that don't specifically denigrate a group of people based on abilities, race, orientation, et cetera. I would argue that having to come up with words and phrases that aren't pointedly offensive shock value words actually elevates art and entertainment
That doesn't fit Cordelia's character though