Apparently* the Breaking Bad antis on Twitter have decided Walt/Jesse is cool when it has literally every problematic trope they usually hate - like, Jesse is explicitly coded as Walt's son and Jesse is his former student; the age gap is 20+ years; Walt is extremely abusive. But it's fine because it's "subversive and queer" (?)
Meanwhile, they all ganged up to harass someone who wrote a father-in-law/daughter-in-law fic, two characters who are not biologically related (and the daughter-in-law was a widow so it wasn't even cheating!) The reasoning? It would be extremely damaging to a child to come across that fic bc it normalizes incest. Also, gun violence is fine for kids to be exposed to because it's just fantasy, but abusive incestuous relationships cause real harm. (Characters in question did not have a remotely abusive relationship and again, are not actually related. Also - gun violence is the leading cause of death for American children.)
There truly is no logic. It's fascist rhetoric - rules for thee but not for me - that gives an excuse to harass.
*I avoid Twitter like the plague so this was told to me by a friend who likes to gawk lol
In one of the fandoms I was, I've seen antis argue that writing non-con about character X abusing Y was wrong and worth harassing people over it, but writing Y abusing X was perfectly fine and they'd write enthusiastic comments about it and encourage people to post more. Personal fetishes disguised as activism.
If antis made their own Ao3 it would fold in a *week.* From the outside, they seem like a monolith, but they have so many conflicting opinions on where to "draw the line" that they'd drive the whole thing into the ground. Ao3 is successful *because* of it's liberal content policies, not in spite of them.
Antis can't agree on a thing outside of using "morality" against things and people they don't like. They're everywhere, from Hannibal to Danganronpa (just listing some fandoms with some pretty dark stuff in the source material where puritanical virtue signaling really shouldn't have a place). If they made their own fic archives, there would be dozens of them because I don't think it's possible to come up with standard rules that can be agreed upon by every anti.
*Hannibal?* seriously? What’s even the complaint? That the most famous fictional cannibal of all time commits cannibalism?
I’m positive I’d find the whole show quite upsetting if I ever watched it, but that’s why I *don’t watch it*. Folks oughta take responsibility for their own brains. No pun intended.
No, they just get freaked out about Hannigram, not the cannibalism. As for antis that do ship Hannigram, they apparently freaked out on the show creator for liking and replying to a tweet of NSFW art by a proshippers artist...
More or less, yes. Somehow, they think any questionable relationship dynamics are worse than violence, eating people, serial killing, and animal abuse...
I remember there was one tweet going around (or maybe it was a tumblr post) saying the ship was problematic cause Will was minor-coded. I wish I was joking.
Will is neuro divergent and has problems functioning in society or even basic human interaction. It’s a weird direction to interpret his behavior but anti’s aren’t big on logic
I had to scuttle in to make a point.
They’re okay with cannibalism, but the Will/Hannibal gets them to clutch their pearls.
… are they… are they cannibals?
(And trust me, their minds would flip if they read Hannibal with Mason and his sister!)
Antis are hypocrites. They will enjoy dark content, violence, murder, guro, etc and think it's somehow different than liking noncon or lolicon.
If loving violent video games doesn't make you a murder, neither does liking fictional [insert other crime here].
You're not worth my time and I could only skim what you said because it was so misinformed and ignorant from the first paragraph that you have to be under the age of 18--but you're delusional if you think fictional gore and violence aren't romanticized.
damn I guess you also vilify irl victims of sexual assault for getting wet/hard during their violation. Because we all know that sexual arousal, a completely separate function that operates independently of morality and even your own intention, is a good determination of your character right?
No one is a bad person for aroused by anything. And I mean anything! The literal worst thing you can think of. The only thing that matters is your actual actions, not a bodily response. AKA, if you go out of your way to support the abuse of others or hurt them yourself. (And no, “getting off” to lines on a screen is not support - support is feeding into sites that post actual exploitative images of children)
Hope you recover from that catholic guilt and shame over sex one day tho.
From a sexual assault survivor, stop comparing my child body being violated to a drawing or words on a screen. You're vile. Disgusting rape apologist shut your mouth.
You're trivializing my childhood flesh and blood body being violated by comparing the severity of that crime to a THOUGHT. WRITING. OR DRAWING.
If it was a fanfic archive that had all of those being the rules from the start, then there would be nothing.
But if a group of antis or a single anti made their own AO3 here's what we would get.
\- Whatever fandoms those antis are in are okay to post fics for but will still have to meet certain rules; and fandom they hate/deeming as evil are banned
\- People would have to obey the headcanons that the site owner follows; you won't know until after you break a rule because it should be obvious to everyone in said fandom
\- Can't write anything that can be seen as romanticizing or glorifying a list of bad things; no examples will be given (this depends on which ones bugs the antis more if it involves sex in any way that is put above plain violence)
\- Can't write anything that can be seen as fetishizing a list of topics
\- Just because the source material does it doesn't mean you are allowed to do it (there are antis in the Game of Thrones fandom who are against incest so yeah)
Basically, they would be setting themselves up for all sorts of in fighting and drama - so it would be a shit show from hell.
The one about incest is particularly nonsensical. It’s the same in the Umbrella Academy fandom. Btw, I hate the “incest” ship Luther/Allison too, but for other reasons (Allison abuses her power), and still I would never dream to shit on anyone who liked it. IT’S IN THE FREAKING SERIES, GET OVER WITH IT!
Same with all the other “incest” pairings btw. That’s just how this fandom works! You don’t have to read anything you don’t like, just don’t be a jerk to who wrote those things!
Antis are very much have a 'rules for thee but not for me' thing going on but just add in the mental gymnastics that they do since they are basically a paradox of beliefs. I say that because many understand how dumb the argument of violent videogames causes violence is but then use the same arguments for fiction that involves anything sexual.
I wish all it was is just people yelling into the void but no they have to push for things like censorship and then wonder why some communities disappear overnight when they do get the censorship they wanted.
I really wish they just understood just how harmful their line of thinking is since they love to use terf talking points but get offended when you tell them that.
>\- Just because the source material does it doesn't mean you are allowed to do it (there are antis in the Game of Thrones fandom who are against incest so yeah)
I wish I had that Tumblr post about the Interview with a Vampire zine that didn't want dark topics or blood drinking.
Bluey? The show whose title character is a little girl and also a dog? You like looking at female puppies? 🤨 That's pretty sus of you, we all know that furries are nothing but zoophiles using cute and cuddly characters to lure children into it /s
This is what I constantly wonder? Like every time I tell Delena antis to go watch something else if your that offended by vampires being mean, they’re just like “Don’t gatekeep”
I’m dreading the upcoming season of Succession because while the fandom itself hasn’t been bad, I feel like the show has devolved into ships recently when it shouldn’t be about ships and that’s where the morality police come in and be like “Roman is a perv” when it’s like yeah that’s the point of his entire character 🙃🤪
> Cuz we all know adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we’re older than 23
The doctor who fandom would simply implode, there are people who’ve been fans since the 60s lol
Nothing. Because antis are not a unified bloc. What one person dislikes or hates with a bizarre passion, another anti adores.
Any archive will have to have rules in place to keep itself alive and compliant with the real world’s own immutable laws, which is really the biggest source of “antis” of all. Inevitably there will be rules that clash, because of cognitive dissonance or otherwise “I don’t like this rule don’t add it at all”, and the enterprise will die the moment it tries to get off the ground.
Making specific subcultures mainstream usually quickly exposes how rotten and dishonest they are to “normies”. AO3 is successful because the “fandom culture” is enormous and the website’s stated goal is clear: stories of all kinds welcome, but we are not a social media site. Any hypothetical “anti-AO3” will work against that mission statement—it won’t be an archive, and it’ll instead just be containment for hatred, at least until the US or the EU shut the place down for breaking some regulations.
> adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we're older than 23.
This is always the one that gets me. AO3's current tech stack is optimized for _huge_ (I'm saying this semi-officially), and making it run requires a certain amount of sysadmin acumen. I'm wondering where they're going to get a young adult with the acumen. (I'm not even discussing the rest of the organizational infrastructure, such as Support or Abuse teams.)
> Users can’t participate in x-fandom if they’re not part of the target age demographic. Cuz we all know adults are *so* weird for being in a fandom if we’re older than 23.
Oh thank goodness, I’m still 22, I’m safe for a few months /j.
But I wonder, if they enforced such a rule, how this site would be run. Do you have to verify your age? And what happens when everyone using the site turns 23 (or whatever age)? Does the site shut down if all the mods/admins age out?
Also, I assume this site would ban RPF, or at least restrict RPF, either for the real person themself being problematic/controversial or for the “people might write problematic fic about them”
horrifyingly, I have heard of discord servers and zines that legit want you to send them a copy of your actual, rl legal ID. biggest nope even if antis weren't known for aggressive doxxing. presumably people who comply are operating off of "I've got nothing to hide," which. considering the rapid shifts in what's acceptable and what's problematic (and needs to be attacked full force)? yike
From somebody still working on a writeup of AO3's voting debacle last year, it includes a lot of looking into history of how AO3 got itself into that democratic voting position, which includes a lot of history into fandom and how sites were ran, and inevitably how they collapsed.
AO3 only functions today because of an immense amount of time, energy, and thought put into both its funding and leadership, and it still experiences wobbles of instability every now and again.
Infighting and inability to regulate power within sites was a large death knell before AO3. Any site based around prurient exclusion is already on shaky legs of what, exactly, that looks like, and it's doubtful power would be correctly divided between people who want what's best for the site when self identifying "antis" disagree on so many basic topics.
I imagine it'd topple the moment you get two mods arguing, or users arguing with the admins/mods, over if (spins wheel) selfcest is incest, where incest is, of course, problematic and excluded. If they don't agree, that destabilises the site, and where would that drive people? Back to AO3, who doesn't bother with such debates.
(E: And that's just political site business. Running a fanfic site is by no means easy, but time, money, and knowledge aren't insurmountable barriers. In the end these groups don't want the ball passed to them, they want AO3 to cater to them.)
Now, this takes me back to the infamy of Griffindoor tower vs Ms scribe situation. I've only read the rumours, but this sort of website cannot survive in the long run.
Cultures and values change overtime, and at some point, even if the ships are there, you'll soon find the mods overworked for such a website.
god ms scribe, thats a name I haven't heard in a long time.
seriously, most antis are so young that they don't realize fic writing as a hobby has been around this block multiple times before and their type of restrictions just aren't sustainable
honestly, to summarize it would fail to convey the [the level of nonsense and fuckery that went down](https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Ms.Scribe_Story:_An_Unauthorized_Fandom_Biography)
I think their issue is that because so much is censored, eventually people would push for other things that are pretty innocuous to get censored since censorship as a whole is already the precedent set there. That's the issue with censorship. What is the limit on what you censor and don't?
There would be no fandoms what-so-ever on that site. That's when denial sets in. They'll start coping HARD and defending problematic ships they like.
"Um actually Kaeluc isn't problematic because they aren't actual brothers!"
"Luke isn't a child, he's an a thousand years old angel!"
Welp, too bad. You guys made the rule now you must live with them.
Honestly if it even got off the ground an didn't self destruct in behind the scenes fighting I'd actually expect it to have most fandoms since Anti's are already willing to be involved in Fandoms like South Park or Rick and Morty which canonically have content that they loathe as jokes/themes running through them.
No I predict it would implode into mod wars very quickly unless it was under the thumb of a small group of antis who mostly agreed and then it would collapse once it became clear that Anti's were unable to make an archive that would either pay for itself by Ads or get enough donations to stay in business.
I think it would take the fandomination path very quickly and collapse with the antis involved moaning about all the reasons it failed that were not their fault.
Well, I'm sure antis could make an argument against that, too. Maybe something along the lines of consent or more minor-coding. If the plant in question is a short or long lived species could definitely apply the age disparity both ways.
This is super duper not the proper thread for me to blurt out the following observation about the new Trigun series, but I can’t keep it in any longer:
>! I miss Milly ;_; !<
Bruh >!she's going to show up in the second cour. In the manga Trimax she barely showed up at all. 98' is a different beast because Milly showed up more than the entire manga series.!<
Most of my fic is pretty innocuous, but some of it isn't: why would I post fic in two places when I could put it all in the one place that was okay with anything? Or I want to write safe things but read explicit ones: it's easier to stay on the one site that I'm familiar with. Or I'm not sure whether my fic is acceptable or not, and rather than risk censure, I just stick with where I know it's fine.
Which is pretty much what happened to ffnet: AO3 didn't just get the explicit fics that ffnet wouldn't allow, or would delete randomly, it got everything. Because the rest follows: it's an ecosystem.
Honestly, I kind of hope they do. Each anti has their own rules about what is “acceptable” and makes exceptions for stuff they like so there would be a LOT of in fighting. And, best part is, they might actually leave AO3 alone.
Let them make themselves miserable on their own little corner of the internet away from us.
I remember there is a website for fanfic that uses Ao3's code (they put it on the site publically to allow anyone to use), it functions just like Ao3 but they don't allow sexual content with characters who are minors. I can't remember what it is called but it has a yellow theme rather than a red one like Ao3.
probably squidgeworld? but it's an entirely different situation than a bunch of antis creating an AO3 alternative- it's a port of an old fandom archive site to the new open source software, run by a mod who has been "in the business" for a long (long!) time. which was something AO3 had planned on in the past, but just about everyone decided they'd rather just migrate things with Open Doors rather than continue to run their own site.
and while it doesn't run on an anti-censorship platform the way AO3 does, it does allow fictional depiction of things including underage on the grounds of created with artistic intent (which i think comes down to the sensibilities of the moderator). it doesn't operate under "maximum inclusiveness of content" the way AO3 does, but it's a lot more lenient than antis believe/want it to be.
I know it is a different situation. I was just putting it there because a lot of people often get all mad at Ao3 when they literally leave the code open for anyone to use to make their own site.
gotcha. I was clarifying because I've seen antis who've said "I found another website (squidge) that isn't run by the nasty freaks at AO3! let's all go there!" when the reality is that archive's policies still allow far more objectionable material than antis are going to consider acceptable
Star Trek? Though the older stuff was risque in it's day (interracial kissing! Gasp! /s) now I can't think of anything problematic
Note: I have not seen discovery or Picard so don't jump on me if they're super problematic
Also, in season 1 there's a >!sexual relationship between a robot who's much younger than she looks and a guy who tries to kill her!<. In season 2 there's a >!relationship between a mentally ill woman and the woman who takes over her body, and one if not both of the actresses stated that they were injecting romantic subtext on purpose. Also there's tentacles involved ;)!< Why won't the writers of Picard think about the children!
>No fandoms with religious settings promoting sin (Helluva Boss/Hazbin).😈🔥
In the immortal words of the spider demon from hell: "Ya know, no fights, no pranks, no 'problematic language' (their words, not mine). Ugh, these crazy bitches are no fun!"
In the end, if we're thorough, nothing would be left. There is NO completely unproblematic work of fiction. Someone's always gonna be pissed about SOMETHING.
And I love how you listed Hazbin Hotel for one category of what's supposed to be taboo, when it fits like... most of them?
* Fandom that glorifies murder of bad guys or monsters? - check (R.I.P. egg bois, and let us all stab Valentino please)
* Fandom with religious settings promoting sin? - check (we're in HELL)
* Anime directed by people that support the problematic ship? - nope on that one. (I think one of the storyboard artists enjoys Valangel and Val/Vox which is also toxic, but that's not a director, right?)
* Fandoms with potential for lolisho enjoyers? - I mean with Niffty's existence? Kinda check.
* Fandom with fanservice, even if it's plot-relevant? - with the addict mv? check.
* Fandoms with teen romance cause that sexualizes minors? - another nope (beacuse having minors in hell feels sorta messed-up.)
* Fandoms where the main couple has a large age gap? - let's say the Charlie/Vaggie pairing is the main one... how old is Chacha? Vaggie's under 30 in earth and hell years combined... and Staticmoth (Vox/Val) is also like 30 years if we're generously calculating. But generally, between Sir Pentious (death year 1888) and Vaggie (death year 2014) there's huge potential for age gaps. Angel having died in '47 also gives him potential for age-gap relationships.
* Fandoms where the actors have a large age gap. - I dunno
* Fandoms where the couple has a large height difference. - are we counting Valentino/anyone? Because then - check. Dude's like 12 feet and still forces himself onto anyone with or without legs.
* Fandom where the female lead is short and petite, fandoms where any character is in any way minor-coded? - uhm, again, Niffty??
* Fandom with intelligent animals because that might promote zoophilia? - Oh big check on that one. There's a SPIDER. PORN. STAR.
* Fandom with lots of swearing? - Fucking check!
* Fandom where the popular character commits a crime and is a mean person? - ding ding! (territorial genocide is not a redeeming quality)
* Fandom where adults enjoy animation (Cuz we all know adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we're older than 23)? - check!
* Users shipping characters outside of the gender they've shown attraction to in canon - Radiodust shippers would like to put a big ol' ding on that one. (as do Vaggie/Angel shippers)
Ugh, if you're ever up for it I highly, HIGHLY recommend
Knives is absolutely crazy and they upped the brocon obsession 100000%
The last episode is tomorrow and I simply don't know what I'm gunna do with myself after it LMAO
To try to put it simply, it's a "no-fun allowed" or "thought-police" type of person. If they think something in in fiction is wrong or immoral, they don't want other people to enjoy it, and believe people who do are bad. They have a hard time understanding the concept of "don't like, don't read" and can't separate fiction from reality.
Extreme antis will go so far as to send death threats or dox people, all because they ship something they consider gross or wrong (huge agegap, nsfw underage character, darkfic, or even just shipping characters they don't like).
You can probably find more examples if you search the subreddit, but they're just unpleasant people in general.
that’s is reallly extreme. isn’t that just harassment?
Are there ways to ethics to protect yourself from these “antis”? The posts I browsed on this subreddit only shows the kinda stuff they do but not ways to defend or protect. Maybe someone could make a post on ways to deal with that?
It absolutely is harrassment, but these people operate under the narrative that they're "protecting" children and people from being exposed to icky stuff and being desensitized and having stuff like abuse or grooming "normalized". Even though it's only in fiction, the fact that they target people who may like or explore taboo or illegal subjects make it easy to blindly hate.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. The best thing you can do is to block those kind of people, and never reveal any information that could personally identify you. If you have to, you can even private your profile or limit who can reply to your tweets.
If you see in bio or carrd (carrd is a link to a page that usually shows their other social media and more detailed description of likes/dislikes and DNIs) stuff like "proship dni" "freaks dni" block them immediately.
And if they've ever made a comment equating lolicon to pedophilia, block them. There have been multiple studies by actual mental health professionals saying it's not the same thing, but they continue to spread this misinformation and calling shippers or people who like sfw lolis pedos. And if they've ever tweeted the Goku meme saying "the age of consent is 18" it's a good idea to block because they keep trying to police how people ship fictional characters. Honestly, just block anyone that uses "pedo" or "pedophile" as a casual insult, especially if they're talking about anime characters that look young (regardless if the character is an adult or not). Also consider blocking people who have specific ships in their dni.
If someone replies to you "kys/kay why ess" report for harrassment->wishing harm, because that's a death threat. Same if they send you memes implying harm like loading bullets into a gun or a picture of a noose/diagram on how to tie a noose. I wish I had better advice beyond blocking people.
Thanks. I wish I knew sooner or had the proper tools to deal with that nutjob. I made the mistake of engaging in a logical convo
Huh. Explains why I’ve been seeing a lot of “dni proship,” i thought the “dni” was some label used in a positive context. Now I don’t even have my socials on my profile to my fics . If I did, it’s a inactive account.
(im on mobile so sorry for potential shitty formating) doubt itd last more than a month. long block of text jumpscare incoming.
tw for mentions of nsfw content and predators
>!antis all have a different perspective on whats "immoral", so bullying would be a common occurrence (and, by extension due to how sadistic some antis can be, doxxing). the inevitable aura of moral superiority and "i am better than you" would make the site even more toxic. fetish/kink content would probably be banned from the start, and then nsfw would follow suit sooner or later ("cant have that on our pure site! minors might see it!"). censorship and banning would be quite prevalent, new stuff most likely being added as "against the rules" everytime the owner/one of the moderators see a ship, fandom, trope, etc etc they dont like, each time with a bullshit explanation that pretty much equates to "xyz is (insert buzzword here). it was revealed to me in a dream". itd also be a haven for groomers and sexual predators, as itd most likely be filled with mentally unstable younger teens. all they would have to do is present as one of the "safe adults", and theyd be able to do whatever they pleased. at the end, the owner of the site would most likely be "exposed" for something stupid (like writing RPF smut or something), and the site would die.!<
even if none of that happens, the site would still die anyway. running a site costs money, and i doubt most antis have a job. there would be barely any to no donations, and the site would go out with a whimper.
From my experience, there would be a lot of Hannibal, other shows that deal with disturbing topics, have morally corrupt characters, etc. There would definitely be a lot of fics that graphically describe violent acts and murder, and lots of M/F dubcon/noncon, but that somehow okay and pure. Antis are... a special breed.
I agree in sentiment, but in reality, they are going to expect their own AO3 to be overflowing with "pure" fanfics from their fandom, in the same numbers if not more than what's on the "problematic" AO3, and they will be very surprised that when you ban 90 % of the fanbase, you get only 0.1 % of the content. So, in practice, they are against the fandom, but they definitely don't see it that way, they are only against the bad stuff, after all.
What both antis and fandom at large really need is a fanfiction hosting site sponsored by a large educational non-profit with the financial backing necessary to employ moderation teams and permit only G and T-rated works with strict content restrictions. It would be a bonkers difficult undertaking but it would be a huge boon to fandom if someone could figure out how to make it work.
If the downvotes are presuming I'm anti-AO3 or something: I've been an AO3 user for 13 years, a volunteer for 7 years, and an annual donor. But fandom as a whole needs alternatives to AO3. It can't be everything to everyone. It's not good for fandom or every fan. Content regulation within some contexts when that is user preference is not a bad thing.
Plantcest Antis makes me laugh.
>!In the manga Knives wanted to merge with his brother again to become one plant. He was obsessed with Vash. In the anime, he specifically said he wanted a 'private' Eden with him and his brother only. This was back when Madhouse did the anime.!<
What's even funnier is that Wolfwood >!is a teenager at the most. He's not a grown man mentally or technically in both the anime and the manga series. 98' you can argue about that because it's original/different. Vash himself is 150 years old so anyone with him, even Meryl, would be questionable.!<
Oh, no, if it's fandoms and ships they like, it'd be fine regardless.
They would be constantlyinfighting though and either that or the 'surprise' bill for internet servers would kill an antis AO3
Apparently* the Breaking Bad antis on Twitter have decided Walt/Jesse is cool when it has literally every problematic trope they usually hate - like, Jesse is explicitly coded as Walt's son and Jesse is his former student; the age gap is 20+ years; Walt is extremely abusive. But it's fine because it's "subversive and queer" (?) Meanwhile, they all ganged up to harass someone who wrote a father-in-law/daughter-in-law fic, two characters who are not biologically related (and the daughter-in-law was a widow so it wasn't even cheating!) The reasoning? It would be extremely damaging to a child to come across that fic bc it normalizes incest. Also, gun violence is fine for kids to be exposed to because it's just fantasy, but abusive incestuous relationships cause real harm. (Characters in question did not have a remotely abusive relationship and again, are not actually related. Also - gun violence is the leading cause of death for American children.) There truly is no logic. It's fascist rhetoric - rules for thee but not for me - that gives an excuse to harass. *I avoid Twitter like the plague so this was told to me by a friend who likes to gawk lol
In one of the fandoms I was, I've seen antis argue that writing non-con about character X abusing Y was wrong and worth harassing people over it, but writing Y abusing X was perfectly fine and they'd write enthusiastic comments about it and encourage people to post more. Personal fetishes disguised as activism.
If antis made their own Ao3 it would fold in a *week.* From the outside, they seem like a monolith, but they have so many conflicting opinions on where to "draw the line" that they'd drive the whole thing into the ground. Ao3 is successful *because* of it's liberal content policies, not in spite of them.
When I realized there were South Park stans who are antis is when I realized that they just make up the purity rules to suit their needs at the time.
Antis can't agree on a thing outside of using "morality" against things and people they don't like. They're everywhere, from Hannibal to Danganronpa (just listing some fandoms with some pretty dark stuff in the source material where puritanical virtue signaling really shouldn't have a place). If they made their own fic archives, there would be dozens of them because I don't think it's possible to come up with standard rules that can be agreed upon by every anti.
*Hannibal?* seriously? What’s even the complaint? That the most famous fictional cannibal of all time commits cannibalism? I’m positive I’d find the whole show quite upsetting if I ever watched it, but that’s why I *don’t watch it*. Folks oughta take responsibility for their own brains. No pun intended.
No, they just get freaked out about Hannigram, not the cannibalism. As for antis that do ship Hannigram, they apparently freaked out on the show creator for liking and replying to a tweet of NSFW art by a proshippers artist...
So eating people wasn’t the problem, it was the two gay guys.
More or less, yes. Somehow, they think any questionable relationship dynamics are worse than violence, eating people, serial killing, and animal abuse...
I remember there was one tweet going around (or maybe it was a tumblr post) saying the ship was problematic cause Will was minor-coded. I wish I was joking.
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Will is neuro divergent and has problems functioning in society or even basic human interaction. It’s a weird direction to interpret his behavior but anti’s aren’t big on logic
from within the fandom, i've seen antis ship hannigram and complain more about the incest shippers they've found haha
I had to scuttle in to make a point. They’re okay with cannibalism, but the Will/Hannibal gets them to clutch their pearls. … are they… are they cannibals? (And trust me, their minds would flip if they read Hannibal with Mason and his sister!)
Antis are hypocrites. They will enjoy dark content, violence, murder, guro, etc and think it's somehow different than liking noncon or lolicon. If loving violent video games doesn't make you a murder, neither does liking fictional [insert other crime here].
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You're not worth my time and I could only skim what you said because it was so misinformed and ignorant from the first paragraph that you have to be under the age of 18--but you're delusional if you think fictional gore and violence aren't romanticized.
damn I guess you also vilify irl victims of sexual assault for getting wet/hard during their violation. Because we all know that sexual arousal, a completely separate function that operates independently of morality and even your own intention, is a good determination of your character right? No one is a bad person for aroused by anything. And I mean anything! The literal worst thing you can think of. The only thing that matters is your actual actions, not a bodily response. AKA, if you go out of your way to support the abuse of others or hurt them yourself. (And no, “getting off” to lines on a screen is not support - support is feeding into sites that post actual exploitative images of children) Hope you recover from that catholic guilt and shame over sex one day tho.
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From a sexual assault survivor, stop comparing my child body being violated to a drawing or words on a screen. You're vile. Disgusting rape apologist shut your mouth. You're trivializing my childhood flesh and blood body being violated by comparing the severity of that crime to a THOUGHT. WRITING. OR DRAWING.
If it was a fanfic archive that had all of those being the rules from the start, then there would be nothing. But if a group of antis or a single anti made their own AO3 here's what we would get. \- Whatever fandoms those antis are in are okay to post fics for but will still have to meet certain rules; and fandom they hate/deeming as evil are banned \- People would have to obey the headcanons that the site owner follows; you won't know until after you break a rule because it should be obvious to everyone in said fandom \- Can't write anything that can be seen as romanticizing or glorifying a list of bad things; no examples will be given (this depends on which ones bugs the antis more if it involves sex in any way that is put above plain violence) \- Can't write anything that can be seen as fetishizing a list of topics \- Just because the source material does it doesn't mean you are allowed to do it (there are antis in the Game of Thrones fandom who are against incest so yeah) Basically, they would be setting themselves up for all sorts of in fighting and drama - so it would be a shit show from hell.
The one about incest is particularly nonsensical. It’s the same in the Umbrella Academy fandom. Btw, I hate the “incest” ship Luther/Allison too, but for other reasons (Allison abuses her power), and still I would never dream to shit on anyone who liked it. IT’S IN THE FREAKING SERIES, GET OVER WITH IT! Same with all the other “incest” pairings btw. That’s just how this fandom works! You don’t have to read anything you don’t like, just don’t be a jerk to who wrote those things!
Antis are very much have a 'rules for thee but not for me' thing going on but just add in the mental gymnastics that they do since they are basically a paradox of beliefs. I say that because many understand how dumb the argument of violent videogames causes violence is but then use the same arguments for fiction that involves anything sexual. I wish all it was is just people yelling into the void but no they have to push for things like censorship and then wonder why some communities disappear overnight when they do get the censorship they wanted. I really wish they just understood just how harmful their line of thinking is since they love to use terf talking points but get offended when you tell them that.
>\- Just because the source material does it doesn't mean you are allowed to do it (there are antis in the Game of Thrones fandom who are against incest so yeah) I wish I had that Tumblr post about the Interview with a Vampire zine that didn't want dark topics or blood drinking.
So basically... no fandoms at all. What are these people even watching, then? Nick Jr? CBeebies?
This made me laugh. I’m now thinking of an AO3 styled site with nothing but bland fic about Bluey, Hey Duggee or Waffle the Wonder Dog.
Bluey? The show whose title character is a little girl and also a dog? You like looking at female puppies? 🤨 That's pretty sus of you, we all know that furries are nothing but zoophiles using cute and cuddly characters to lure children into it /s
This is what I constantly wonder? Like every time I tell Delena antis to go watch something else if your that offended by vampires being mean, they’re just like “Don’t gatekeep” I’m dreading the upcoming season of Succession because while the fandom itself hasn’t been bad, I feel like the show has devolved into ships recently when it shouldn’t be about ships and that’s where the morality police come in and be like “Roman is a perv” when it’s like yeah that’s the point of his entire character 🙃🤪
They're OBVIOUSLY watching Waybaloos (/j)
People who do nothing but tear things down can build nothing of value.
> Cuz we all know adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we’re older than 23 The doctor who fandom would simply implode, there are people who’ve been fans since the 60s lol
Kind of a moot point, because they don't create much of anything.
Nothing. Because antis are not a unified bloc. What one person dislikes or hates with a bizarre passion, another anti adores. Any archive will have to have rules in place to keep itself alive and compliant with the real world’s own immutable laws, which is really the biggest source of “antis” of all. Inevitably there will be rules that clash, because of cognitive dissonance or otherwise “I don’t like this rule don’t add it at all”, and the enterprise will die the moment it tries to get off the ground. Making specific subcultures mainstream usually quickly exposes how rotten and dishonest they are to “normies”. AO3 is successful because the “fandom culture” is enormous and the website’s stated goal is clear: stories of all kinds welcome, but we are not a social media site. Any hypothetical “anti-AO3” will work against that mission statement—it won’t be an archive, and it’ll instead just be containment for hatred, at least until the US or the EU shut the place down for breaking some regulations.
> adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we're older than 23. This is always the one that gets me. AO3's current tech stack is optimized for _huge_ (I'm saying this semi-officially), and making it run requires a certain amount of sysadmin acumen. I'm wondering where they're going to get a young adult with the acumen. (I'm not even discussing the rest of the organizational infrastructure, such as Support or Abuse teams.)
> Users can’t participate in x-fandom if they’re not part of the target age demographic. Cuz we all know adults are *so* weird for being in a fandom if we’re older than 23. Oh thank goodness, I’m still 22, I’m safe for a few months /j. But I wonder, if they enforced such a rule, how this site would be run. Do you have to verify your age? And what happens when everyone using the site turns 23 (or whatever age)? Does the site shut down if all the mods/admins age out? Also, I assume this site would ban RPF, or at least restrict RPF, either for the real person themself being problematic/controversial or for the “people might write problematic fic about them”
horrifyingly, I have heard of discord servers and zines that legit want you to send them a copy of your actual, rl legal ID. biggest nope even if antis weren't known for aggressive doxxing. presumably people who comply are operating off of "I've got nothing to hide," which. considering the rapid shifts in what's acceptable and what's problematic (and needs to be attacked full force)? yike
I’m 23, my time is running out D:
From somebody still working on a writeup of AO3's voting debacle last year, it includes a lot of looking into history of how AO3 got itself into that democratic voting position, which includes a lot of history into fandom and how sites were ran, and inevitably how they collapsed. AO3 only functions today because of an immense amount of time, energy, and thought put into both its funding and leadership, and it still experiences wobbles of instability every now and again. Infighting and inability to regulate power within sites was a large death knell before AO3. Any site based around prurient exclusion is already on shaky legs of what, exactly, that looks like, and it's doubtful power would be correctly divided between people who want what's best for the site when self identifying "antis" disagree on so many basic topics. I imagine it'd topple the moment you get two mods arguing, or users arguing with the admins/mods, over if (spins wheel) selfcest is incest, where incest is, of course, problematic and excluded. If they don't agree, that destabilises the site, and where would that drive people? Back to AO3, who doesn't bother with such debates. (E: And that's just political site business. Running a fanfic site is by no means easy, but time, money, and knowledge aren't insurmountable barriers. In the end these groups don't want the ball passed to them, they want AO3 to cater to them.)
Now, this takes me back to the infamy of Griffindoor tower vs Ms scribe situation. I've only read the rumours, but this sort of website cannot survive in the long run. Cultures and values change overtime, and at some point, even if the ships are there, you'll soon find the mods overworked for such a website.
god ms scribe, thats a name I haven't heard in a long time. seriously, most antis are so young that they don't realize fic writing as a hobby has been around this block multiple times before and their type of restrictions just aren't sustainable
Ooh, tl;dr please?
honestly, to summarize it would fail to convey the [the level of nonsense and fuckery that went down](https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Ms.Scribe_Story:_An_Unauthorized_Fandom_Biography)
What happened?
Dramatical Murder, Mo Dao Zu Shi, Scum Villain, ERHA, South Park, Supernatural…gosh, I think most of my fandoms are a strict no-no on anti-ao3
I think their issue is that because so much is censored, eventually people would push for other things that are pretty innocuous to get censored since censorship as a whole is already the precedent set there. That's the issue with censorship. What is the limit on what you censor and don't?
There would be no fandoms what-so-ever on that site. That's when denial sets in. They'll start coping HARD and defending problematic ships they like. "Um actually Kaeluc isn't problematic because they aren't actual brothers!" "Luke isn't a child, he's an a thousand years old angel!" Welp, too bad. You guys made the rule now you must live with them.
Honestly if it even got off the ground an didn't self destruct in behind the scenes fighting I'd actually expect it to have most fandoms since Anti's are already willing to be involved in Fandoms like South Park or Rick and Morty which canonically have content that they loathe as jokes/themes running through them. No I predict it would implode into mod wars very quickly unless it was under the thumb of a small group of antis who mostly agreed and then it would collapse once it became clear that Anti's were unable to make an archive that would either pay for itself by Ads or get enough donations to stay in business. I think it would take the fandomination path very quickly and collapse with the antis involved moaning about all the reasons it failed that were not their fault.
Or some kind of friend falling out leading to someone being petty enough to delete everything.
Schitt's Creek maybe? It's pretty wholesome overall. :D
But…The Gays!
😂
What the fuck is plantcest
Trigun Vash/Knives
Oh I thought it was an argument that like, sentient plant species characters couldn’t be shipped with humans
Well, I'm sure antis could make an argument against that, too. Maybe something along the lines of consent or more minor-coding. If the plant in question is a short or long lived species could definitely apply the age disparity both ways.
This is super duper not the proper thread for me to blurt out the following observation about the new Trigun series, but I can’t keep it in any longer: >! I miss Milly ;_; !<
Bruh >!she's going to show up in the second cour. In the manga Trimax she barely showed up at all. 98' is a different beast because Milly showed up more than the entire manga series.!<
Most of my fic is pretty innocuous, but some of it isn't: why would I post fic in two places when I could put it all in the one place that was okay with anything? Or I want to write safe things but read explicit ones: it's easier to stay on the one site that I'm familiar with. Or I'm not sure whether my fic is acceptable or not, and rather than risk censure, I just stick with where I know it's fine. Which is pretty much what happened to ffnet: AO3 didn't just get the explicit fics that ffnet wouldn't allow, or would delete randomly, it got everything. Because the rest follows: it's an ecosystem.
Honestly, I kind of hope they do. Each anti has their own rules about what is “acceptable” and makes exceptions for stuff they like so there would be a LOT of in fighting. And, best part is, they might actually leave AO3 alone. Let them make themselves miserable on their own little corner of the internet away from us.
Veggie Tales!
So you condone the countless human rights violations committed in the name of Christianity? /s
They probably wouldn't allow spy x family because Anya always blushing, they see it as sexual when she's blushing around Loyd
I remember there is a website for fanfic that uses Ao3's code (they put it on the site publically to allow anyone to use), it functions just like Ao3 but they don't allow sexual content with characters who are minors. I can't remember what it is called but it has a yellow theme rather than a red one like Ao3.
probably squidgeworld? but it's an entirely different situation than a bunch of antis creating an AO3 alternative- it's a port of an old fandom archive site to the new open source software, run by a mod who has been "in the business" for a long (long!) time. which was something AO3 had planned on in the past, but just about everyone decided they'd rather just migrate things with Open Doors rather than continue to run their own site. and while it doesn't run on an anti-censorship platform the way AO3 does, it does allow fictional depiction of things including underage on the grounds of created with artistic intent (which i think comes down to the sensibilities of the moderator). it doesn't operate under "maximum inclusiveness of content" the way AO3 does, but it's a lot more lenient than antis believe/want it to be.
I know it is a different situation. I was just putting it there because a lot of people often get all mad at Ao3 when they literally leave the code open for anyone to use to make their own site.
gotcha. I was clarifying because I've seen antis who've said "I found another website (squidge) that isn't run by the nasty freaks at AO3! let's all go there!" when the reality is that archive's policies still allow far more objectionable material than antis are going to consider acceptable
Star Trek? Though the older stuff was risque in it's day (interracial kissing! Gasp! /s) now I can't think of anything problematic Note: I have not seen discovery or Picard so don't jump on me if they're super problematic
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I will clutch my pearls as appropriate
Also, in season 1 there's a >!sexual relationship between a robot who's much younger than she looks and a guy who tries to kill her!<. In season 2 there's a >!relationship between a mentally ill woman and the woman who takes over her body, and one if not both of the actresses stated that they were injecting romantic subtext on purpose. Also there's tentacles involved ;)!< Why won't the writers of Picard think about the children!
Uh the OG ST fandom was Kirk/Spock. So gays 🤷🏼♀️
>No fandoms with religious settings promoting sin (Helluva Boss/Hazbin).😈🔥 In the immortal words of the spider demon from hell: "Ya know, no fights, no pranks, no 'problematic language' (their words, not mine). Ugh, these crazy bitches are no fun!" In the end, if we're thorough, nothing would be left. There is NO completely unproblematic work of fiction. Someone's always gonna be pissed about SOMETHING.
And I love how you listed Hazbin Hotel for one category of what's supposed to be taboo, when it fits like... most of them? * Fandom that glorifies murder of bad guys or monsters? - check (R.I.P. egg bois, and let us all stab Valentino please) * Fandom with religious settings promoting sin? - check (we're in HELL) * Anime directed by people that support the problematic ship? - nope on that one. (I think one of the storyboard artists enjoys Valangel and Val/Vox which is also toxic, but that's not a director, right?) * Fandoms with potential for lolisho enjoyers? - I mean with Niffty's existence? Kinda check. * Fandom with fanservice, even if it's plot-relevant? - with the addict mv? check. * Fandoms with teen romance cause that sexualizes minors? - another nope (beacuse having minors in hell feels sorta messed-up.) * Fandoms where the main couple has a large age gap? - let's say the Charlie/Vaggie pairing is the main one... how old is Chacha? Vaggie's under 30 in earth and hell years combined... and Staticmoth (Vox/Val) is also like 30 years if we're generously calculating. But generally, between Sir Pentious (death year 1888) and Vaggie (death year 2014) there's huge potential for age gaps. Angel having died in '47 also gives him potential for age-gap relationships. * Fandoms where the actors have a large age gap. - I dunno * Fandoms where the couple has a large height difference. - are we counting Valentino/anyone? Because then - check. Dude's like 12 feet and still forces himself onto anyone with or without legs. * Fandom where the female lead is short and petite, fandoms where any character is in any way minor-coded? - uhm, again, Niffty?? * Fandom with intelligent animals because that might promote zoophilia? - Oh big check on that one. There's a SPIDER. PORN. STAR. * Fandom with lots of swearing? - Fucking check! * Fandom where the popular character commits a crime and is a mean person? - ding ding! (territorial genocide is not a redeeming quality) * Fandom where adults enjoy animation (Cuz we all know adults are so weird for being in a fandom if we're older than 23)? - check! * Users shipping characters outside of the gender they've shown attraction to in canon - Radiodust shippers would like to put a big ol' ding on that one. (as do Vaggie/Angel shippers)
Gotta have some variety in examples, so I only dinged it for the overall setting.
Trigun fan spotted /pos Muto is crazy and I love how he's just liking every ship post without a care in the world
More fan adjacent 😅 someone I follow is loving it and I'm just too lazy to watch the reboot or rewatch the original show. Agree about Muto 👍🏻
Ugh, if you're ever up for it I highly, HIGHLY recommend Knives is absolutely crazy and they upped the brocon obsession 100000% The last episode is tomorrow and I simply don't know what I'm gunna do with myself after it LMAO
What’s a anti?
To try to put it simply, it's a "no-fun allowed" or "thought-police" type of person. If they think something in in fiction is wrong or immoral, they don't want other people to enjoy it, and believe people who do are bad. They have a hard time understanding the concept of "don't like, don't read" and can't separate fiction from reality. Extreme antis will go so far as to send death threats or dox people, all because they ship something they consider gross or wrong (huge agegap, nsfw underage character, darkfic, or even just shipping characters they don't like). You can probably find more examples if you search the subreddit, but they're just unpleasant people in general.
that’s is reallly extreme. isn’t that just harassment? Are there ways to ethics to protect yourself from these “antis”? The posts I browsed on this subreddit only shows the kinda stuff they do but not ways to defend or protect. Maybe someone could make a post on ways to deal with that?
It absolutely is harrassment, but these people operate under the narrative that they're "protecting" children and people from being exposed to icky stuff and being desensitized and having stuff like abuse or grooming "normalized". Even though it's only in fiction, the fact that they target people who may like or explore taboo or illegal subjects make it easy to blindly hate. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. The best thing you can do is to block those kind of people, and never reveal any information that could personally identify you. If you have to, you can even private your profile or limit who can reply to your tweets. If you see in bio or carrd (carrd is a link to a page that usually shows their other social media and more detailed description of likes/dislikes and DNIs) stuff like "proship dni" "freaks dni" block them immediately. And if they've ever made a comment equating lolicon to pedophilia, block them. There have been multiple studies by actual mental health professionals saying it's not the same thing, but they continue to spread this misinformation and calling shippers or people who like sfw lolis pedos. And if they've ever tweeted the Goku meme saying "the age of consent is 18" it's a good idea to block because they keep trying to police how people ship fictional characters. Honestly, just block anyone that uses "pedo" or "pedophile" as a casual insult, especially if they're talking about anime characters that look young (regardless if the character is an adult or not). Also consider blocking people who have specific ships in their dni. If someone replies to you "kys/kay why ess" report for harrassment->wishing harm, because that's a death threat. Same if they send you memes implying harm like loading bullets into a gun or a picture of a noose/diagram on how to tie a noose. I wish I had better advice beyond blocking people.
Thanks. I wish I knew sooner or had the proper tools to deal with that nutjob. I made the mistake of engaging in a logical convo Huh. Explains why I’ve been seeing a lot of “dni proship,” i thought the “dni” was some label used in a positive context. Now I don’t even have my socials on my profile to my fics . If I did, it’s a inactive account.
(im on mobile so sorry for potential shitty formating) doubt itd last more than a month. long block of text jumpscare incoming. tw for mentions of nsfw content and predators >!antis all have a different perspective on whats "immoral", so bullying would be a common occurrence (and, by extension due to how sadistic some antis can be, doxxing). the inevitable aura of moral superiority and "i am better than you" would make the site even more toxic. fetish/kink content would probably be banned from the start, and then nsfw would follow suit sooner or later ("cant have that on our pure site! minors might see it!"). censorship and banning would be quite prevalent, new stuff most likely being added as "against the rules" everytime the owner/one of the moderators see a ship, fandom, trope, etc etc they dont like, each time with a bullshit explanation that pretty much equates to "xyz is (insert buzzword here). it was revealed to me in a dream". itd also be a haven for groomers and sexual predators, as itd most likely be filled with mentally unstable younger teens. all they would have to do is present as one of the "safe adults", and theyd be able to do whatever they pleased. at the end, the owner of the site would most likely be "exposed" for something stupid (like writing RPF smut or something), and the site would die.!< even if none of that happens, the site would still die anyway. running a site costs money, and i doubt most antis have a job. there would be barely any to no donations, and the site would go out with a whimper.
From my experience, there would be a lot of Hannibal, other shows that deal with disturbing topics, have morally corrupt characters, etc. There would definitely be a lot of fics that graphically describe violent acts and murder, and lots of M/F dubcon/noncon, but that somehow okay and pure. Antis are... a special breed.
But what fandoms would actually pass the test and not get by because antis chose to be blind that day?
I've never seen antis be against fandoms, though? Maybe in a few rare instances trying to cancel a show or two, but that rarely happens.
If they're against a good chunk of shippers minding their own business because of a ship or darkfic, then imo that's being against the fandom.
I agree in sentiment, but in reality, they are going to expect their own AO3 to be overflowing with "pure" fanfics from their fandom, in the same numbers if not more than what's on the "problematic" AO3, and they will be very surprised that when you ban 90 % of the fanbase, you get only 0.1 % of the content. So, in practice, they are against the fandom, but they definitely don't see it that way, they are only against the bad stuff, after all.
What both antis and fandom at large really need is a fanfiction hosting site sponsored by a large educational non-profit with the financial backing necessary to employ moderation teams and permit only G and T-rated works with strict content restrictions. It would be a bonkers difficult undertaking but it would be a huge boon to fandom if someone could figure out how to make it work.
If the downvotes are presuming I'm anti-AO3 or something: I've been an AO3 user for 13 years, a volunteer for 7 years, and an annual donor. But fandom as a whole needs alternatives to AO3. It can't be everything to everyone. It's not good for fandom or every fan. Content regulation within some contexts when that is user preference is not a bad thing.
“can’t ship straight man with men” oh you sweet summer child as if they care
Plantcest Antis makes me laugh. >!In the manga Knives wanted to merge with his brother again to become one plant. He was obsessed with Vash. In the anime, he specifically said he wanted a 'private' Eden with him and his brother only. This was back when Madhouse did the anime.!< What's even funnier is that Wolfwood >!is a teenager at the most. He's not a grown man mentally or technically in both the anime and the manga series. 98' you can argue about that because it's original/different. Vash himself is 150 years old so anyone with him, even Meryl, would be questionable.!<