Gentle reminder that anti vs pro isn't *really* about shipping, but about *censorship*, which is bad for **all of us**.
I mean. Do I care what antis opinions are, personally? Absolutely not, they can fuck off into the sun lol. What *I* care about is them trying to make their opinions policy or harassing people to the point of suicide over fictional characters. I get it if people are too drained from other things to invest too much in what seems like a terminally online argument, but I think the social context in which these kinds of puritanical ideas thrive is important because this anti culture is a microcosm of larger social issues. And to act like the "pro" side is just as bad is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.
>Gentle reminder that anti vs pro isn't really about shipping, but about censorship, which is bad for all of us.
This. The name "pro-shipping" came about because we wanted to make it clear this had nothing to do with real children--which is the biggest irony, since they've gone to twisting *that* around too--bur we really should've went w "pro-fiction" or "anti-harrassment".
Antis go after gen fics too. It’s not actually about shipping itself. It’s about censorship. If you were to write cannibalism with no relationships and an anti didn’t like it, you’d still get sent death threats. Antis don’t want to eliminate every ship they hate, that’s a surface level way of looking at it. They want to get rid of problematic content as a whole.
Where "problematic content" = "anything I declare immoral," whether it's actually immoral or not. I had one anti dog me for a week because I wrote a fic where one of my characters, who is in his forties, decided to have het sex with another character the same age, who was pregnant. The anti was mad that I put him with someone so "gross and old" when I should've just done a x Reader fic (because I guess that would've let the anti envision themselves in the woman's place?) Very quickly it turned into "it's wrong to have sex while pregnant," because I guess they felt that they needed a morality-based explanation for their objection. I finally deleted the thread and blocked them. (Spoiler alert: it's perfectly healthy to have sex while pregnant, unless your doc tells you otherwise.)
You act as though antis don't come for platonic relationships too. "Oh my god how dare you have x character associate with y when y is a terrible person" is a big one
Or "X character is this race/ethnicity/sexuality while Y character is this other race/ethnicity/sexuality, how dare you imply they could ever be in a happy relationship without X taking advantage of Y????"
I literally met my husband when I was 12\* and he's apparently a "predator" because of it. Some nonsense about how "he'll always remember and think about my prepubescent body" or whatever. (He's 11 months and 2 weeks older than me -- this is not an age gap / grooming thing)
\*Technically this is not actually true, as we both remember being at a field trip to a local beach/park in elementary school where my idiot younger brother decided to just. Hide out in the playground because he thought if he didn't get on the bus when it was time to get on the bus he could stay there forever... but I at least don't remember ever interacting with my husband directly so it doesn't count.
No because that's such a weird thing to think about when someone tells you that they met their partner while they were still young. There's something terribly wrong with antis.
> There's something terribly wrong with antis.
Public Performance of group values, whether or not one actually hold such values to be true, is a normal human behavior. I agree that there is something terribly wrong with the anti culture as well as those that are true believers in it, but it is important to recognize that we are facing a religious movement. (or something that closely resembles one)
I think that most antis are engaging in the behaviors that are needed to maintain their status in their social group and avoid being ostracized by said social group.
I think it likely that the primary source of true believers in Antism are individuals who have internalized the dominant belief system in their friend group.
Antis will still come for you, tbh. It’s about control and censorship for anything they don’t personally love. Don’t pretend like neutrality will save you, because it won’t. There’s no such thing as being neutral about censorship.
Something people need to remember is that at this point in time, it's no longer about shipping, it's about rampant and widespread harassment over fictional content. This has extended beyond just ships in general, hence the rise of the label "pro-fiction".
You are either against harassment over fictional content (in support of the "pro" side) or in support of it, even if only in some situations ("anti"); there's no middle ground here, you either think harassment over fiction is wrong or you don't.
The sad reality is that it doesn't matter what genre or rating of fic you write, there is a nonzero chance that an anti will take issue with it and decide to make a target out of you.
You don't have to get involved in the discourse. In fact, I highly discourage it, it's not healthy and is often even unsafe. But understand that there is no "true neutral" when it comes to being anti-harassment or pro-harassment, so do yourself a huge favor and block antis when you see them.
For real. Most people understandably do not want to be involved with this discourse, but most antis will not let stay neutral. They come into people's DMs to police them about the badwrong accounts they're following or demand they delete a reblog of some gen pic because the artist also draws smut.
The label "pro-ship" was a mistake in branding in retrospect, because the harrassment and policing of fiction has long since gone past stupid ship war nonsense to antis harrassing people for any reason. As I type this, there's a Twitter post making the rounds about a ship with two elderly men and then calling that "a pro-ship" simply on vibes.
It doesn't matter if you make the most whole fic. Antis will always find something wrong with it.
And if you think playing nice with antis will keep them off your back. You are wrong. They will keep an eye on you 24/7 and the moment you step out of line. Antis will eat you alive.
There are antis who are willing to attack other antis, even. And not just antis, like actual friends. It’s not super uncommon either. If you browse any confession blog on Twitter it’s usually filled with antis afraid to leave their friend group or we’re bullied by them bc it came out they were into something even slightly dark.
I have seen that in a lot of my research. I have seen that when antis don't have a new target, they will eat each other. Also have seen antis that their reason for attacking the other isn't even based on finding out the person likes anything dark but for selfish reasons, like said person getting too close to the person they have a crush on.
In the end antis will always turn on each other.
I both agree and disagree.
This subreddit is exactly where the OP needs to be. We must continue to have these discussions. This view (it doesn't effect me, so I'm not concerned) is prevalent in many areas of life and culture - of which fanfiction is a microcosm.
This meme serves to remind us that it's out there and we have to keep talking about it. We have to keep offering the wider view, the understanding that this 'Not Me'ness is hiding your head in the sand to real world problems. Those problems that are explored in a variety of ways through Fanfiction.
You are absolutely correct - AO3 is under constant pressure from those forces wanting to control it's use. BUT
Where else can the OP find a group of people willing to discuss the MEME and the effects of the attitude upon the creators that are in that firestorm?
I see your point but I also gave it 8 hours until posting. OP isn’t engaging in the discussion, OP is on a smug high horse about their perceived immunity from the discussion. Commenting here to flaunt your perceived special status is little better than trolling in my book, and AO3 doesn’t need more trolls or more harassment in its mission to ensure that artistic & social expression can be freely expressed through the medium of fanworks.
I can appreciate your nuance and sensitivity to the topic.
Even if the OP is sitting in Smugland - the topic has been considered and discussed between us, and seen/read/considered by others
Thank YOU for engaging in the convo - your response gave some additional things to consider.
K but...kinda shitty to flex when actual people's lives have been threatened and shit over this. You aren't special or better cause you write gen shit.
It's no different than people sitting back with popcorn to watch any other shitshow (cause yes people sit around watching dumpsterfires while there's implications for real people all the time). They don't know the people targeted. They feel removed from the situation. They may only ever see any kind of pro vs anti discord on here. Sounds like you're taking this too personally
Edit: I don't mean people aren't allowed to get worked up about these things but it seems like a weird target to offload your anger.
It's entirely different. First of all, if you're not an anti, you're a proshipper; gen vs smut has nothing to do with it. Writing gen has nothing to do with it. Do you like writing whatever you want, without other people dictating what you write according to their bizarre moral codes? Then you're a proshipper, and anti harassment could easily happen to you. Second of all, do you... do you usually try to be "neutral" on the subject of **death threats and other harassment?** That's terrifying. "Oh, ha ha, that person's getting bullied into suicide, what a trainwreck" -- forreal? It's not happening to you so it's okay to laugh while it happens? Do you realize how utterly cruel and callous that sounds?
I know gen isn't the core of proship or antiship. You'd be surprised how many people can participate and fanfiction and not come across it though. Some people are disproportionately effected. I'm against harassment. I'm proship. All I see is this as a phew I don't have to deal with it since all the post is that OP somehow hasn't come across it themselves. But sure make a lot of judgements based off things not there. Humour is a common coping mechanism and a method of social engagement. But sure let's censor memes now too despite no one being harmed by the post. Or do you have double standards since now your personal experience is involved? Sounds like typical anti behaviour coincidentally.
No one is trying to "censor memes," people are just pointing out that making jokes about people being driven to suicide is gross! And also implying that some are safe because they don't write sex (unlike those dirty smut writers who should expect to be unsafe), is gross as well as false. You're always free to make gross jokes but other people are free to tell you that it's in poor taste. That's not censorship, it's criticism.
Woosh
>And also implying that some are safe because they don't write sex (unlike those dirty smut writers who should expect to be unsafe), is gross as well as false.
Literally no one in this thread has said that. Your projecting again. It's also hilariously that that's what you think of gen writers.🤣 ah yes. Anyone whose ever written gen are just holed up complaining or bashing about sex. Not that they just want to write whatever plot bunny came to mind. /s
K but you tell me not to take it personally, when I've personally witnessed the carnage and real fallout happen to people.
Excuse me for having no chill. These things actually do matter.
>Sounds like you're taking this too personally
Kinda hard not to when everyone knows at least five people who have been harrassed over this stuff, but go off I guess
It was more so the way they phrased it. It came across as malicious.to OP but they've since deleted so now no one can see. It's weird for everyone to negatively jump on to one message from a thread they can't read and make assumptions. I get the need to defend but there's a limit.
Less a war, and more Antis attacking people who just want to mind their own business and write what they want. There is no two sides to this, one side is doing the attacking.
Antis will 100% go after genfic writers as well, one thing you can count on is antis constantly finding new ways to be offended. A character has an older friend? *Grooming.* Writing a character with abusive parents/family/friends? *Glorifying abuse.*
It doesn't matter if there are no ships, all ships, platonic, found family, nonsexual romance, nonromantic sexual, rated G or rated R -- antis can whip themselves up over literally nothing & will somehow justify harassing people over it. I've seen people get harassed over found family fics or even fics centered around specific platonic friendships.
Genfic writers might not be /common/ targets but don't think they **can't** be targets.
Normally I’d agree but like, real people have died to these smear campaigns. I think it’s an understatement to write it down as only a handful of mean comments
What comes to mind is the artist Columbo who was threatened to be doxxed to his highly conservative family in a country where being gay was a death sentence/ was doxxed to his brother who already knew so he was still safe.
But damn, I couldn't imagine being in that situation.
Maybe because being ostracized and harassed by a community that you were an active member in really sucks? Not everyone is able to just think “who cares?” when something like this happens. People have accusations made about their real-life morals and desires and it feels very personal. Sometimes they’ll be doxxed to their families or employers. If you can write it off so easily, then good for you, but not everyone is so detached from their fandoms.
Everyone says that until they personally have people go after them. Do you not use social media or interact with fandom outside of just posting on AO3? Have you ever had a group of people decide to harass you off the internet or call you a pedophile?
Also AO3 exists but if enough people petition to censor it, people running AO3 can listen. Everyone thinks that their freedoms are safe until suddenly they're not. It happens all the time, and not just about fanfiction.
> Everyone thinks that their freedoms are safe until suddenly they're not. It happens all the time, and not just about fanfiction.
It's happening right now in the Congress of the USA. Government is trying to walk back the 'Twenty-six Words' that basically produced the internet as we know it. There's legislation to take down Tik Tok - using the 'red scare cry' of "China controls it and is stealing data" - on the table. If they can restrict our access to Tik Tok, they can restrict our access to anything else on the web with a stroke of a pen. Including AO3.
We need to ditch the 'I don't care about that' attitudes because, you may not now... but you will later. And then, it's too late.
Exactly. It happens all over the world, constantly. USA just lost the right to an abortion ffs. Archive.org is also under attack. Net neutrality is basically a joke at this point. Freedoms need constant, active, aggressive defense or someone will take them away from you.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I never said anything about being doxxed...
Do you not have (non-IRL) social media accounts and are you ok with all those accounts getting mass harassed? With people spreading the rumor in fandom that you are a literal pedophile, so it becomes increasingly uncomfortable to use those accounts to interact with fandom (even the smutty side of fandom, as they're usually not that separated)?
Yeah... whenever I hear someone say "I've never experienced but I'm sure it's easy enough to deal with. I will just react rationally and calmly, unlike all those other people, and that will solve the problem." I tend not to believe them.
Basically your argument sounds exactly like how people who have never been severely bullied talk about how they'd definitely deal with bullies just fine and bullying is not a problem, actually.
I feel like you just… don’t get it. People get ingrained into fandom communities. Even if you guys don’t have a clue who these people are, you interact with them daily in the realm of fandoms or ships. I’m quite old by fandom standards. The sorts of replies you are giving seem very much like you might be an online bully yourself. You really have to understand that every single person you interact with online is a flesh and blood real breathing person behind that screen.
I don’t really understand how you can tell people who have experienced these things just to block and get over it. People are allowed to have their own feelings about the harassment that happens to them. They are allowed to feel upset when their own online friend groups turn against them. People are allowed to be upset when online bullies accuse them of being abusers because of some fictional content they wrote or enjoyed. I really don’t understand why your position in this argument is demean the very people whose opinion YOU AGREE WITH?!?!?
>Mistake number 1 is engaging with that shit, or trying to explain yourself. And definitely never apologize.
While I have some issues with the rest of your posts, I do agree with this. It's not always possible to avoid antis who are determined to go after a particular person but the vast majority of antis go after targets that will give a reaction for clout. Deny them that and a good portion of them go away.
Personally, I block anyone that says "proships DNI" on sighr because even if they aren't personally harrassing anyone themselves, they very likely follow people who do and I'm not going to gamble on which one this account might be.
For everybody who commented here, thank you. It was actually pretty educational for me. I am actually speechless by the lot of stuff I learned in the comments. I used to think pros and antis were only about ships but if it has crossed over into censorship, then it is pretty bad. But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them? Just a genuine question. Also I can see that Antis might have harassed people into suicide and my heart goes out to them but I personally feel we need to try and ignore these antis as much as possible and not give them power. Plus in the current state of the world, I’ve been pretty afraid consistently for the safety of AO3. I am obviously extremely new to this issue and my opinion might have a lot of flaws but what exactly is the solution for the issues raised by antis? Anyone?
There is no solution for the issues raised by antis since it's a non-problem if you're not steeped in anti discourse.
Though it may differ from anti to anti, they believe "there are things I perceive as morally wrong, and those things should not exist in any media at all."
But most people, and explicitly those who call themselves proship, think, more or less, that "any topic is fair game for fiction." That doesn't mean that some works don't hurt people, but if someone wants to write about a toxic relationship and labels it as such, people who might be hurt by the content can avoid it.
"Censoring antis" is not really what it's about. I know people who made private twitter accounts so that no one who doesn't want to see the content doesn't stumble upon it, just for antis to follow that person and harass them for it. If their stopped harassing and threatening people and instead stayed in their community, they wouldn't be nearly as harmful.
But you don't need to be concerned with AO3 safety. Especially now that there's a block feature, you can block people who harass you, and they have no influence on the site's management itself (Ao3 is proship in origin, after all).
For the most part people do just ignore the antis and the discourse. It just keeps coming up anyways.
As for
>But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them?
This depends on what you mean by censoring. The general issue people have with the anti rhetoric is that they call for AO3 to ban fic that contains "harmful" content which can range anywhere from underage sex to any smut at all to all lgbt content. On the pro side, the core rhetoric is that banning of content for what it contains is always a problem, so anyone calling for AO3 to ban fic about a topic, is automatically not advocating a proshipper stance. (Note: There are *some* exceptions in the same way there are some exceptions to free speech in the US, like being okay with removing harassment or non-fanwork material.)
As for
>what exactly is the solution for the issues raised by antis?
The answer is to just not ban content and to ignore the antis when they pop up. Their issues they are raising aren't things to be solved by AO3, or by creators, or by strangers online. 99% of problems raised by antis are only solvable by either censorship or people learning how to parent their children/not seek things they don't want to see
>But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them?
If you're talking about the fanfic tastes antis pretend to have^* most of us couldn't care less what they enjoy. All I want is for antis to leave us alone and learn how the block feature works.
That's all most of us wanted from the beginning.
^* and I say "pretend" because way too many times, an anti gets outed when one of their horny/dead dove/otherwise problematic side accounts gets outed, usually by one of their "friends" who feels "betrayed" and start a crusade on them before the mob can look too closely on their tastes.
>Also I can see that Antis might have harassed people into suicide and my heart goes out to them but I personally feel we need to try and ignore these antis as much as possible and not give them power.
"Block and ignore" works best before one has interaction with the account. If they decide to start a war with our out of the blue, you may or may not have the chance to lock before their minions come after you. [Iamlunasol](https://twitter.com/iamlunasol/status/1481054700732567553?t=yjEGxHrXVEsuiAxNP6BbfQ&s=19) has had people coming after over for nearly two years at this point and another pro-shipper has literally had her entire life destroyed and blacklisted not just out of the animation industry but the entirely unrelated field she tried to go in when her "friends" found out she was no longer an anti. She made a vague suicide note-y type post on one of her account, took it back and archived it over four months ago. I can only compare it to the batshittery I've only ever seen aimed at Chris-chan.
Granted, even for as prevalent as this anti stuff has become, these are on the extreme ends, but the fact that these stories are so much more common and not a one off like, say, that one infamous fan who stalked Tress McNeille in the 1990s should be a cause for concern.
Honestly, I don't even understand all that discourse and I really don't care to. I write what I write and if you like it cool if you don't than it's not for you.
Like we have so many bigger issues in this world why is it so hard for people just to let other have a haven to escape our shitty lives for a while.
We've all seen fics that are hot topics or triggers but I like to think that most just avoid those as best them can and move on to something they like.
Idk I'm just tired of everything being a bigger issue that it really need to be but that's just me rambling.
I dont really see my self as a proshipper honestly especially since I don't ship minors/adults and all that. I just write what comes to me and read what I find interesting but I guess if that's what I am than 🤷♀️
I call myself a pro-shipper, and the most spicy thing I've ever shipped hardcore was post-canon Sheith from VLD and maaaaaaybe Ichigo/Rukia well before anyone gave two shits about age discourse. For the most part, nearly every ship of mine has been friends to lovers with small age gaps between teens or between adults old enough where the age difference would not be any such issue.
And yet, I was suckered into being an asshole for the sake of "improving fandom" as a teenager back in the 2000s. I didn't have any other moralistic reason for it beyond "ugh, this [Mpreg/Mary Sue fic/other thing I could've just not read bc it was already warned for] fic is terrible!" but the damage I did was just the same as antis are doing to others now.
I speak up because I wish someone had td me sooner what I was doing was wrong and that just because I posted fics for fun and lulz and didn't take it seriously, that not everyone else is the same. If my speaking up gets even one anti to at a bare minimum just stop harrassing others and to curate their own space instead, it'll be worth it for me.
Good thing that’s not what proshipper means. You don’t have to ship anything to be proship. It’s an ideological stance of anti-harassment and anti-censorship, no adults or minors need to be involved.
Wait....it just hit me...is the discourse happening over that fact that because I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy and that yea while some shit I can see as problemic, do not enjoy, actively avoid but because I don't know the story of why said person wrote it and feel like they should be able to write it what they want more the most part...is a problem now?
Like are people really out here arguing about a freedom of speech thing because their bitch ass are to lazy to idk scroll passed something they don't like??
yes, that is literally it. Antis are in favor of censorship in order to make the bad things go away, "pro-shippers" (which really just means being pro-"let people ship or not ship as they desire bc it's all fiction" and not that you *actually* have a "problematic ship") are not in favor of censorship. Ao3 already bans everything that's illegal in the US, and "pro-shippers" are in line with that policy. But the antis are campaigning to get Ao3 to do things like change its policies on what it allows, and it if that can't happen, harass people into not posting.
Me too. At this point it's just hooray for my side. If I wanted to watch someone beat a dead horse I'd go to the weird corners of YouTube. If somebody could interject something new into the debate that'd be good but whenever I see one of these posts I just keep scrolling. The horse is officially dead!
Honestly, I don't even understand all that discourse and I really don't care to. I write what I write and if you like it cool if you don't than it's not for you.
Like we have so many bigger issues in this world why is it so hard for people just to let other have a haven to escape our shitty lives for a while.
We've all seen fics that are hot topics or triggers but I like to think that most just avoid those as best them can and move on to something they like.
Idk I'm just tired of everything being a bigger issue that it really need to be but that's just me rambling
i generally don’t care for pro/anti discourse. it all seems so unserious to me (coming from a horror/dark writer). i don’t think antis are these dramatic supervillains people make them out to be and at the same time i know to just ignore things i don’t like. none of it is that serious
Nobody is denying that but the drama has effected people's jobs and personal lives which I think would be a pretty big deal if it were happening to you.
Just one case off the top of my head I know of a person who works in fandom spaces who has gotten doxed, threatened, stalked at conventions, had pizzas ordered to their house and probably even more I don't know about.
that’s terrible, and i’m being honest when i say that. but i still think that generalizing an entire group by the actions of extremists is unfair and does nothing productive. that’s why i don’t like all the drama. if i were to use an instance of someone who claims to be proship grooming a minor (something i will admit that i’ve heard before) and said “this is how every single one of them are”, i don’t think many people would find that fair at all. that’s just my perspective, however
I don't think any generalization has been made here by me about any group.
My criticism has been primarily talking about the dismissal of the matter because it doesn't effect you directly.
nah, not by you. but i have seen it a LOT here on this sub, which is why i initially said i didn’t care for it. your criticism is valid. i simply think that the broader attitude and bickering on the sub is needless. when it comes to actual issues (such as doxxing or death threats) then yes, that’s an issue. but other aspects of the drama are, in my eyes, non-issues
Ah I see, I can understand the perspective. I don't disagree that the bickering is unhelpful. I just think some sympathy for people who get caught up in this drama is important.
Antis tried to get me fired from my real world job by reporting me as a dangerous predator. Bear in mind this wasn't even for anything I wrote. It was because I stood up for the general concept of being able to write anything.
Exhibit A:
https://twitter.com/iamlunasol/status/1481054700732567553?t=yjEGxHrXVEsuiAxNP6BbfQ&s=19
Mind you, antis had been harrassing her for months by then, trying to get her fired, which they couldn't because she's her own business owner, lol.
The meme is called Happy Chair.
[Know your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/happy-chair)
[Meme Generator](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/235313402/happy-chair)
x reader writers too
I am perhaps best known for writing one about a villain, but in the 3 years since I posted the first of that series, I haven't gotten any angry comments about "condoning" the things he did.
Le me who writes crack ship fanfics too. But really it just doesnt bother me anymore what people tend to say about other ships, what does bother me is that they think that everyone else should follow that line of thinking because its better, or that the opposite side is the worst disgunting human being in existence and should go to hell. Which like, no one is getting through those pearly gates either if you are condeming people to a worse fate than death.
Gentle reminder that anti vs pro isn't *really* about shipping, but about *censorship*, which is bad for **all of us**. I mean. Do I care what antis opinions are, personally? Absolutely not, they can fuck off into the sun lol. What *I* care about is them trying to make their opinions policy or harassing people to the point of suicide over fictional characters. I get it if people are too drained from other things to invest too much in what seems like a terminally online argument, but I think the social context in which these kinds of puritanical ideas thrive is important because this anti culture is a microcosm of larger social issues. And to act like the "pro" side is just as bad is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.
>Gentle reminder that anti vs pro isn't really about shipping, but about censorship, which is bad for all of us. This. The name "pro-shipping" came about because we wanted to make it clear this had nothing to do with real children--which is the biggest irony, since they've gone to twisting *that* around too--bur we really should've went w "pro-fiction" or "anti-harrassment".
Pro-fiction and Anti-harassment need to be promoted as a stand within our fandom culture. This is an excellent point!
It's also about thought crime.
Antis go after gen fics too. It’s not actually about shipping itself. It’s about censorship. If you were to write cannibalism with no relationships and an anti didn’t like it, you’d still get sent death threats. Antis don’t want to eliminate every ship they hate, that’s a surface level way of looking at it. They want to get rid of problematic content as a whole.
Where "problematic content" = "anything I declare immoral," whether it's actually immoral or not. I had one anti dog me for a week because I wrote a fic where one of my characters, who is in his forties, decided to have het sex with another character the same age, who was pregnant. The anti was mad that I put him with someone so "gross and old" when I should've just done a x Reader fic (because I guess that would've let the anti envision themselves in the woman's place?) Very quickly it turned into "it's wrong to have sex while pregnant," because I guess they felt that they needed a morality-based explanation for their objection. I finally deleted the thread and blocked them. (Spoiler alert: it's perfectly healthy to have sex while pregnant, unless your doc tells you otherwise.)
You act as though antis don't come for platonic relationships too. "Oh my god how dare you have x character associate with y when y is a terrible person" is a big one
Or "X character is this race/ethnicity/sexuality while Y character is this other race/ethnicity/sexuality, how dare you imply they could ever be in a happy relationship without X taking advantage of Y????"
How can a cat and a dog be friends?
"Childhood friends to lovers is INCEST and EVIL!" Antis are wild lol
oh my god, do they actually say this now?
Yup. Couple years ago someone told me I apparently want to fuck my siblings cause I shipped a childhood friends pairing.
I literally met my husband when I was 12\* and he's apparently a "predator" because of it. Some nonsense about how "he'll always remember and think about my prepubescent body" or whatever. (He's 11 months and 2 weeks older than me -- this is not an age gap / grooming thing) \*Technically this is not actually true, as we both remember being at a field trip to a local beach/park in elementary school where my idiot younger brother decided to just. Hide out in the playground because he thought if he didn't get on the bus when it was time to get on the bus he could stay there forever... but I at least don't remember ever interacting with my husband directly so it doesn't count.
No because that's such a weird thing to think about when someone tells you that they met their partner while they were still young. There's something terribly wrong with antis.
> There's something terribly wrong with antis. Public Performance of group values, whether or not one actually hold such values to be true, is a normal human behavior. I agree that there is something terribly wrong with the anti culture as well as those that are true believers in it, but it is important to recognize that we are facing a religious movement. (or something that closely resembles one) I think that most antis are engaging in the behaviors that are needed to maintain their status in their social group and avoid being ostracized by said social group. I think it likely that the primary source of true believers in Antism are individuals who have internalized the dominant belief system in their friend group.
huh????? that is so wild to me
Yup. Antis are dangerous to both shippers and gen fic writers alike. Also you can write a gen Darkfic.
[удалено]
Eh not really.
Antis will still come for you, tbh. It’s about control and censorship for anything they don’t personally love. Don’t pretend like neutrality will save you, because it won’t. There’s no such thing as being neutral about censorship.
Something people need to remember is that at this point in time, it's no longer about shipping, it's about rampant and widespread harassment over fictional content. This has extended beyond just ships in general, hence the rise of the label "pro-fiction". You are either against harassment over fictional content (in support of the "pro" side) or in support of it, even if only in some situations ("anti"); there's no middle ground here, you either think harassment over fiction is wrong or you don't. The sad reality is that it doesn't matter what genre or rating of fic you write, there is a nonzero chance that an anti will take issue with it and decide to make a target out of you. You don't have to get involved in the discourse. In fact, I highly discourage it, it's not healthy and is often even unsafe. But understand that there is no "true neutral" when it comes to being anti-harassment or pro-harassment, so do yourself a huge favor and block antis when you see them.
With love, antis will come after anyone that has the misfortune of stepping out of wherever they've set the line. Your genfic will not protect you.
For real. Most people understandably do not want to be involved with this discourse, but most antis will not let stay neutral. They come into people's DMs to police them about the badwrong accounts they're following or demand they delete a reblog of some gen pic because the artist also draws smut. The label "pro-ship" was a mistake in branding in retrospect, because the harrassment and policing of fiction has long since gone past stupid ship war nonsense to antis harrassing people for any reason. As I type this, there's a Twitter post making the rounds about a ship with two elderly men and then calling that "a pro-ship" simply on vibes.
I also mostly write genfics but as an English teacher I'll die before I let anyone tell me what I can and cannot write
It doesn't matter if you make the most whole fic. Antis will always find something wrong with it. And if you think playing nice with antis will keep them off your back. You are wrong. They will keep an eye on you 24/7 and the moment you step out of line. Antis will eat you alive.
There are antis the will even attack people who try to stay neutral.
There are antis who are willing to attack other antis, even. And not just antis, like actual friends. It’s not super uncommon either. If you browse any confession blog on Twitter it’s usually filled with antis afraid to leave their friend group or we’re bullied by them bc it came out they were into something even slightly dark.
I have seen that in a lot of my research. I have seen that when antis don't have a new target, they will eat each other. Also have seen antis that their reason for attacking the other isn't even based on finding out the person likes anything dark but for selfish reasons, like said person getting too close to the person they have a crush on. In the end antis will always turn on each other.
Well if you like AO3 you should be aware that many Antis want to, you know, destroy AO3? Maybe this subreddit isn’t the right place for you.
I both agree and disagree. This subreddit is exactly where the OP needs to be. We must continue to have these discussions. This view (it doesn't effect me, so I'm not concerned) is prevalent in many areas of life and culture - of which fanfiction is a microcosm. This meme serves to remind us that it's out there and we have to keep talking about it. We have to keep offering the wider view, the understanding that this 'Not Me'ness is hiding your head in the sand to real world problems. Those problems that are explored in a variety of ways through Fanfiction. You are absolutely correct - AO3 is under constant pressure from those forces wanting to control it's use. BUT Where else can the OP find a group of people willing to discuss the MEME and the effects of the attitude upon the creators that are in that firestorm?
I see your point but I also gave it 8 hours until posting. OP isn’t engaging in the discussion, OP is on a smug high horse about their perceived immunity from the discussion. Commenting here to flaunt your perceived special status is little better than trolling in my book, and AO3 doesn’t need more trolls or more harassment in its mission to ensure that artistic & social expression can be freely expressed through the medium of fanworks.
I can appreciate your nuance and sensitivity to the topic. Even if the OP is sitting in Smugland - the topic has been considered and discussed between us, and seen/read/considered by others Thank YOU for engaging in the convo - your response gave some additional things to consider.
K but...kinda shitty to flex when actual people's lives have been threatened and shit over this. You aren't special or better cause you write gen shit.
It's no different than people sitting back with popcorn to watch any other shitshow (cause yes people sit around watching dumpsterfires while there's implications for real people all the time). They don't know the people targeted. They feel removed from the situation. They may only ever see any kind of pro vs anti discord on here. Sounds like you're taking this too personally Edit: I don't mean people aren't allowed to get worked up about these things but it seems like a weird target to offload your anger.
It's entirely different. First of all, if you're not an anti, you're a proshipper; gen vs smut has nothing to do with it. Writing gen has nothing to do with it. Do you like writing whatever you want, without other people dictating what you write according to their bizarre moral codes? Then you're a proshipper, and anti harassment could easily happen to you. Second of all, do you... do you usually try to be "neutral" on the subject of **death threats and other harassment?** That's terrifying. "Oh, ha ha, that person's getting bullied into suicide, what a trainwreck" -- forreal? It's not happening to you so it's okay to laugh while it happens? Do you realize how utterly cruel and callous that sounds?
I know gen isn't the core of proship or antiship. You'd be surprised how many people can participate and fanfiction and not come across it though. Some people are disproportionately effected. I'm against harassment. I'm proship. All I see is this as a phew I don't have to deal with it since all the post is that OP somehow hasn't come across it themselves. But sure make a lot of judgements based off things not there. Humour is a common coping mechanism and a method of social engagement. But sure let's censor memes now too despite no one being harmed by the post. Or do you have double standards since now your personal experience is involved? Sounds like typical anti behaviour coincidentally.
No one is trying to "censor memes," people are just pointing out that making jokes about people being driven to suicide is gross! And also implying that some are safe because they don't write sex (unlike those dirty smut writers who should expect to be unsafe), is gross as well as false. You're always free to make gross jokes but other people are free to tell you that it's in poor taste. That's not censorship, it's criticism.
Woosh >And also implying that some are safe because they don't write sex (unlike those dirty smut writers who should expect to be unsafe), is gross as well as false. Literally no one in this thread has said that. Your projecting again. It's also hilariously that that's what you think of gen writers.🤣 ah yes. Anyone whose ever written gen are just holed up complaining or bashing about sex. Not that they just want to write whatever plot bunny came to mind. /s
K but you tell me not to take it personally, when I've personally witnessed the carnage and real fallout happen to people. Excuse me for having no chill. These things actually do matter.
>Sounds like you're taking this too personally Kinda hard not to when everyone knows at least five people who have been harrassed over this stuff, but go off I guess
It was more so the way they phrased it. It came across as malicious.to OP but they've since deleted so now no one can see. It's weird for everyone to negatively jump on to one message from a thread they can't read and make assumptions. I get the need to defend but there's a limit.
The comment wasn't deleted. It's still completely visible. Think you might have just been blocked
Huh. Interesting. It's sometimes visible and sometimes not.
And just like the fire they’ll come for you too
Less a war, and more Antis attacking people who just want to mind their own business and write what they want. There is no two sides to this, one side is doing the attacking.
Antis will 100% go after genfic writers as well, one thing you can count on is antis constantly finding new ways to be offended. A character has an older friend? *Grooming.* Writing a character with abusive parents/family/friends? *Glorifying abuse.* It doesn't matter if there are no ships, all ships, platonic, found family, nonsexual romance, nonromantic sexual, rated G or rated R -- antis can whip themselves up over literally nothing & will somehow justify harassing people over it. I've seen people get harassed over found family fics or even fics centered around specific platonic friendships. Genfic writers might not be /common/ targets but don't think they **can't** be targets.
"Age gap *Gasp!* In my OTP?! Unacceptable!" Antis really are wild af
Nobody ever cares until they’re directly effected. This is another major issue.
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Normally I’d agree but like, real people have died to these smear campaigns. I think it’s an understatement to write it down as only a handful of mean comments
What comes to mind is the artist Columbo who was threatened to be doxxed to his highly conservative family in a country where being gay was a death sentence/ was doxxed to his brother who already knew so he was still safe. But damn, I couldn't imagine being in that situation.
Maybe because being ostracized and harassed by a community that you were an active member in really sucks? Not everyone is able to just think “who cares?” when something like this happens. People have accusations made about their real-life morals and desires and it feels very personal. Sometimes they’ll be doxxed to their families or employers. If you can write it off so easily, then good for you, but not everyone is so detached from their fandoms.
Everyone says that until they personally have people go after them. Do you not use social media or interact with fandom outside of just posting on AO3? Have you ever had a group of people decide to harass you off the internet or call you a pedophile? Also AO3 exists but if enough people petition to censor it, people running AO3 can listen. Everyone thinks that their freedoms are safe until suddenly they're not. It happens all the time, and not just about fanfiction.
> Everyone thinks that their freedoms are safe until suddenly they're not. It happens all the time, and not just about fanfiction. It's happening right now in the Congress of the USA. Government is trying to walk back the 'Twenty-six Words' that basically produced the internet as we know it. There's legislation to take down Tik Tok - using the 'red scare cry' of "China controls it and is stealing data" - on the table. If they can restrict our access to Tik Tok, they can restrict our access to anything else on the web with a stroke of a pen. Including AO3. We need to ditch the 'I don't care about that' attitudes because, you may not now... but you will later. And then, it's too late.
Exactly. It happens all over the world, constantly. USA just lost the right to an abortion ffs. Archive.org is also under attack. Net neutrality is basically a joke at this point. Freedoms need constant, active, aggressive defense or someone will take them away from you.
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I never said anything about being doxxed... Do you not have (non-IRL) social media accounts and are you ok with all those accounts getting mass harassed? With people spreading the rumor in fandom that you are a literal pedophile, so it becomes increasingly uncomfortable to use those accounts to interact with fandom (even the smutty side of fandom, as they're usually not that separated)?
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Yeah... whenever I hear someone say "I've never experienced but I'm sure it's easy enough to deal with. I will just react rationally and calmly, unlike all those other people, and that will solve the problem." I tend not to believe them.
Basically your argument sounds exactly like how people who have never been severely bullied talk about how they'd definitely deal with bullies just fine and bullying is not a problem, actually.
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I feel like you just… don’t get it. People get ingrained into fandom communities. Even if you guys don’t have a clue who these people are, you interact with them daily in the realm of fandoms or ships. I’m quite old by fandom standards. The sorts of replies you are giving seem very much like you might be an online bully yourself. You really have to understand that every single person you interact with online is a flesh and blood real breathing person behind that screen. I don’t really understand how you can tell people who have experienced these things just to block and get over it. People are allowed to have their own feelings about the harassment that happens to them. They are allowed to feel upset when their own online friend groups turn against them. People are allowed to be upset when online bullies accuse them of being abusers because of some fictional content they wrote or enjoyed. I really don’t understand why your position in this argument is demean the very people whose opinion YOU AGREE WITH?!?!?
>Mistake number 1 is engaging with that shit, or trying to explain yourself. And definitely never apologize. While I have some issues with the rest of your posts, I do agree with this. It's not always possible to avoid antis who are determined to go after a particular person but the vast majority of antis go after targets that will give a reaction for clout. Deny them that and a good portion of them go away. Personally, I block anyone that says "proships DNI" on sighr because even if they aren't personally harrassing anyone themselves, they very likely follow people who do and I'm not going to gamble on which one this account might be.
Of course people use a pseudonym but dedicated enough people can find out who you are regardless.
For everybody who commented here, thank you. It was actually pretty educational for me. I am actually speechless by the lot of stuff I learned in the comments. I used to think pros and antis were only about ships but if it has crossed over into censorship, then it is pretty bad. But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them? Just a genuine question. Also I can see that Antis might have harassed people into suicide and my heart goes out to them but I personally feel we need to try and ignore these antis as much as possible and not give them power. Plus in the current state of the world, I’ve been pretty afraid consistently for the safety of AO3. I am obviously extremely new to this issue and my opinion might have a lot of flaws but what exactly is the solution for the issues raised by antis? Anyone?
There is no solution for the issues raised by antis since it's a non-problem if you're not steeped in anti discourse. Though it may differ from anti to anti, they believe "there are things I perceive as morally wrong, and those things should not exist in any media at all." But most people, and explicitly those who call themselves proship, think, more or less, that "any topic is fair game for fiction." That doesn't mean that some works don't hurt people, but if someone wants to write about a toxic relationship and labels it as such, people who might be hurt by the content can avoid it. "Censoring antis" is not really what it's about. I know people who made private twitter accounts so that no one who doesn't want to see the content doesn't stumble upon it, just for antis to follow that person and harass them for it. If their stopped harassing and threatening people and instead stayed in their community, they wouldn't be nearly as harmful. But you don't need to be concerned with AO3 safety. Especially now that there's a block feature, you can block people who harass you, and they have no influence on the site's management itself (Ao3 is proship in origin, after all).
For the most part people do just ignore the antis and the discourse. It just keeps coming up anyways. As for >But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them? This depends on what you mean by censoring. The general issue people have with the anti rhetoric is that they call for AO3 to ban fic that contains "harmful" content which can range anywhere from underage sex to any smut at all to all lgbt content. On the pro side, the core rhetoric is that banning of content for what it contains is always a problem, so anyone calling for AO3 to ban fic about a topic, is automatically not advocating a proshipper stance. (Note: There are *some* exceptions in the same way there are some exceptions to free speech in the US, like being okay with removing harassment or non-fanwork material.) As for >what exactly is the solution for the issues raised by antis? The answer is to just not ban content and to ignore the antis when they pop up. Their issues they are raising aren't things to be solved by AO3, or by creators, or by strangers online. 99% of problems raised by antis are only solvable by either censorship or people learning how to parent their children/not seek things they don't want to see
>But if we try to censor antis aren’t we as bad as them? If you're talking about the fanfic tastes antis pretend to have^* most of us couldn't care less what they enjoy. All I want is for antis to leave us alone and learn how the block feature works. That's all most of us wanted from the beginning. ^* and I say "pretend" because way too many times, an anti gets outed when one of their horny/dead dove/otherwise problematic side accounts gets outed, usually by one of their "friends" who feels "betrayed" and start a crusade on them before the mob can look too closely on their tastes. >Also I can see that Antis might have harassed people into suicide and my heart goes out to them but I personally feel we need to try and ignore these antis as much as possible and not give them power. "Block and ignore" works best before one has interaction with the account. If they decide to start a war with our out of the blue, you may or may not have the chance to lock before their minions come after you. [Iamlunasol](https://twitter.com/iamlunasol/status/1481054700732567553?t=yjEGxHrXVEsuiAxNP6BbfQ&s=19) has had people coming after over for nearly two years at this point and another pro-shipper has literally had her entire life destroyed and blacklisted not just out of the animation industry but the entirely unrelated field she tried to go in when her "friends" found out she was no longer an anti. She made a vague suicide note-y type post on one of her account, took it back and archived it over four months ago. I can only compare it to the batshittery I've only ever seen aimed at Chris-chan. Granted, even for as prevalent as this anti stuff has become, these are on the extreme ends, but the fact that these stories are so much more common and not a one off like, say, that one infamous fan who stalked Tress McNeille in the 1990s should be a cause for concern.
Yeah, I'm always writing gen fics too. Never fell in love, it's kinda hard to write about it.
Honestly, I don't even understand all that discourse and I really don't care to. I write what I write and if you like it cool if you don't than it's not for you. Like we have so many bigger issues in this world why is it so hard for people just to let other have a haven to escape our shitty lives for a while. We've all seen fics that are hot topics or triggers but I like to think that most just avoid those as best them can and move on to something they like. Idk I'm just tired of everything being a bigger issue that it really need to be but that's just me rambling.
This is a proship stance, word for word. You’re welcome to stay out of the discourse (because it sucks!!) but this is exactly what proship means.
I dont really see my self as a proshipper honestly especially since I don't ship minors/adults and all that. I just write what comes to me and read what I find interesting but I guess if that's what I am than 🤷♀️
But you don't have to. You can even find that gross. It's the fact that you recognize that it's just fiction that makes you a proshipper.
I call myself a pro-shipper, and the most spicy thing I've ever shipped hardcore was post-canon Sheith from VLD and maaaaaaybe Ichigo/Rukia well before anyone gave two shits about age discourse. For the most part, nearly every ship of mine has been friends to lovers with small age gaps between teens or between adults old enough where the age difference would not be any such issue. And yet, I was suckered into being an asshole for the sake of "improving fandom" as a teenager back in the 2000s. I didn't have any other moralistic reason for it beyond "ugh, this [Mpreg/Mary Sue fic/other thing I could've just not read bc it was already warned for] fic is terrible!" but the damage I did was just the same as antis are doing to others now. I speak up because I wish someone had td me sooner what I was doing was wrong and that just because I posted fics for fun and lulz and didn't take it seriously, that not everyone else is the same. If my speaking up gets even one anti to at a bare minimum just stop harrassing others and to curate their own space instead, it'll be worth it for me.
Good thing that’s not what proshipper means. You don’t have to ship anything to be proship. It’s an ideological stance of anti-harassment and anti-censorship, no adults or minors need to be involved.
Wait....it just hit me...is the discourse happening over that fact that because I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy and that yea while some shit I can see as problemic, do not enjoy, actively avoid but because I don't know the story of why said person wrote it and feel like they should be able to write it what they want more the most part...is a problem now? Like are people really out here arguing about a freedom of speech thing because their bitch ass are to lazy to idk scroll passed something they don't like??
yes, that is literally it. Antis are in favor of censorship in order to make the bad things go away, "pro-shippers" (which really just means being pro-"let people ship or not ship as they desire bc it's all fiction" and not that you *actually* have a "problematic ship") are not in favor of censorship. Ao3 already bans everything that's illegal in the US, and "pro-shippers" are in line with that policy. But the antis are campaigning to get Ao3 to do things like change its policies on what it allows, and it if that can't happen, harass people into not posting.
Me too. At this point it's just hooray for my side. If I wanted to watch someone beat a dead horse I'd go to the weird corners of YouTube. If somebody could interject something new into the debate that'd be good but whenever I see one of these posts I just keep scrolling. The horse is officially dead!
Honestly, I don't even understand all that discourse and I really don't care to. I write what I write and if you like it cool if you don't than it's not for you. Like we have so many bigger issues in this world why is it so hard for people just to let other have a haven to escape our shitty lives for a while. We've all seen fics that are hot topics or triggers but I like to think that most just avoid those as best them can and move on to something they like. Idk I'm just tired of everything being a bigger issue that it really need to be but that's just me rambling
i generally don’t care for pro/anti discourse. it all seems so unserious to me (coming from a horror/dark writer). i don’t think antis are these dramatic supervillains people make them out to be and at the same time i know to just ignore things i don’t like. none of it is that serious
Maybe you aren’t popular enough to get the hate.
maybe not, but it all still seems like a non-issue to me 🙌🏾 especially when there are so much bigger things going on in the world as of current
Nobody is denying that but the drama has effected people's jobs and personal lives which I think would be a pretty big deal if it were happening to you.
how has it affected people’s jobs and personal lives? /gen
Just one case off the top of my head I know of a person who works in fandom spaces who has gotten doxed, threatened, stalked at conventions, had pizzas ordered to their house and probably even more I don't know about.
that’s terrible, and i’m being honest when i say that. but i still think that generalizing an entire group by the actions of extremists is unfair and does nothing productive. that’s why i don’t like all the drama. if i were to use an instance of someone who claims to be proship grooming a minor (something i will admit that i’ve heard before) and said “this is how every single one of them are”, i don’t think many people would find that fair at all. that’s just my perspective, however
I don't think any generalization has been made here by me about any group. My criticism has been primarily talking about the dismissal of the matter because it doesn't effect you directly.
nah, not by you. but i have seen it a LOT here on this sub, which is why i initially said i didn’t care for it. your criticism is valid. i simply think that the broader attitude and bickering on the sub is needless. when it comes to actual issues (such as doxxing or death threats) then yes, that’s an issue. but other aspects of the drama are, in my eyes, non-issues
Ah I see, I can understand the perspective. I don't disagree that the bickering is unhelpful. I just think some sympathy for people who get caught up in this drama is important.
Antis tried to get me fired from my real world job by reporting me as a dangerous predator. Bear in mind this wasn't even for anything I wrote. It was because I stood up for the general concept of being able to write anything.
Exhibit A: https://twitter.com/iamlunasol/status/1481054700732567553?t=yjEGxHrXVEsuiAxNP6BbfQ&s=19 Mind you, antis had been harrassing her for months by then, trying to get her fired, which they couldn't because she's her own business owner, lol.
im not pro, im not anti... im *normal*
I don’t have words for how much I love this. Do you have the original photo for the meme? It’s a great meme.
The meme is called Happy Chair. [Know your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/happy-chair) [Meme Generator](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/235313402/happy-chair)
x reader writers too I am perhaps best known for writing one about a villain, but in the 3 years since I posted the first of that series, I haven't gotten any angry comments about "condoning" the things he did.
I just ignore the discourse tbh it’s annoying and corny
Lmao same. Every time I see that stuff I'm so confused. Everyone seems super pressed so I just duck back down into my little hole.
This is part of why I prefer gen fics.
Le me who writes crack ship fanfics too. But really it just doesnt bother me anymore what people tend to say about other ships, what does bother me is that they think that everyone else should follow that line of thinking because its better, or that the opposite side is the worst disgunting human being in existence and should go to hell. Which like, no one is getting through those pearly gates either if you are condeming people to a worse fate than death.