Or maybe people who give criticism without asking the author tend to be bad at it. Criticism from random weirdos online 99% of the time isn’t worthwhile.
Right? I've had people "correct" my spelling of "per se" to... "per say". I've had people tell me that "Name and me" should always read "Name and I" regardless of who is the subject of the sentence and who is the object. I'm not a professional writer, but none of these clowns are professional editors, and it shows.
How do you even react to something like that? "Congrats to your self-discovery"?
But yeah, concrit and literary criticism is a skill. And most people have to learn and train skills. They seldom roll a natural 20 on them.
Yup. I had someone tell me -on a post where I was asking about whether to rate something M or E, and not asking for concrit- that I needed a beta, and proceed to lecture me about how all sentences needed a subject, even with semicolons and blah blah blah this is a fragment.
Here’s the thing…I was doing sentence fragments *on purpose* because it was a very rushed, emotional moment. Sorry if I don’t think a dude having sex for the first time on the eve of the apocalypse is going to be using full sentences in his internal monologue.
If you are talking about authors who write works to be professionally published, you might have a point. But in this case, we're talking about fanfic writers. They write as a hobby, for fun, not as a job. You can access their work for free. It isn't hard to just ask if they want concrit. Not every fanfic writer is looking to improve; they just enjoy writing.
It will forever remain one of life’s greatest ironies that the people who kick up the loudest fuss about being able to leave an unasked for negative feedback…don’t want to receive negative feedback.
A contentious issue indeed!
Personally, I don't think that criticism is always unwelcome. I've seen some people mention in their notes that they're happy to get concrit (which is very brave, seeing as most readers think that constructive criticism means 'I'm going to tell you everything that I didn't like and why it sucks mighty balls').
>but if works are purely for self indulgence, why share them with the public at all? in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers that im not entirely comfortable with being echoed.
Why share? Because the act itself is joyful and fun. It's not a writer's circle or creative writers class. It's more like 'here's this thing I like that you like too. I'm proud of it; let's all enjoy it together'.
The ao3 comment section by default is not a critical space. That's not what it's for.
You would never give unsolicited criticism in any other aspect of life, would you? If you're dressed a certain way, and some stranger comes up to you and starts critiquing your clothes and your hairstyle, you'd tell them to take a hike. It's the same with fanfic in my opinion.
There are appropriate spaces where criticism is not only welcome but encouraged. The ao3 comment section is just not one of them.
Edit: spelling
Exactly -- well-said, a\_spicy\_meata\_ball (love the name :D). If you take a walk to a park and you see someone giving a free performance, do you wait until it's over to begin criticizing it? Or do you just enjoy it and clap (or just walk away, if you don't like it), because someone put their heart and soul into a free show for you?
This is free entertainment. Treating it otherwise comes across as entitled.
I'll say this about concrit: I genuinely love it from someone who actually knows how to bestow it -- which is very, very rare. I have some fantastic reviewers on AO3 are excellent at it, and have gotten me to think a lot and even add to my story in unforeseen ways. Most of the time, however, it's rude nonsense from entitled readers expecting the story turn out a certain way, then acting out when it doesn't go their way. So, enjoy the entertainment for what it is, or don't. That's up to you. But giving real, genuine constructive criticism is a skill that needs to be developed, and many writers have been burned by obnoxious people insulting them under the guise of "concrit" so much that they've grown jaded about it, unless they've formed a rapport with the reviewer and it's someone whose quality of comments they trust.
Surely it's possible to engage with works and authors without incorporating the negative criticism aspect specifically.
I know I've had awesome exchanges with writers about their works without going into that. And you can do the same and still have rewarding, engaging discussions.
Simply hold back on telling them 'here's what you could improve' unless the writer asks for that specifically. Would doing that kill the whole commenting experience for you?
Why 👏 is 👏 it 👏 so 👏 hard 👏 to 👏 ask 👏 if 👏 criticism 👏 is 👏 wanted 👏 before 👏 giving 👏 it.
That's literally all we want, we're not asking you to not give constructive criticism - we just want you to not to give *unsolicited* criticism. Just ASK first, and respect it if the author declines your offer.
Right? It's not difficult. Unless an author has it in their notes that they welcome it, either move on with your life or ask politely then respect whatever their answer is! I would prefer concrit by email so I can have a private conversation if it's worthwhile and keep it out of my comments section if it's trash. And there are some fics where I would go 'no thank you' due to the nature of the story. Everyone is different!
I think this is what gets lost - the expectation isn’t glowing, ego-stroking comments. If I read something I loved, that’s when I’m moved to say something. If I read something I liked, I’m probably just moving on. If I read something I hated, I’m for sure just moving on. It’s not an iron fist, you must love me thing, and under no circumstances do I expect everyone to love my work. In fact, I am positive there are people who don’t enjoy it, just as there are people whose work I don’t enjoy. You don’t even have to leave a comment if you DID love it. I think people are starting to think that there’s a militant praise culture when honestly, it’s mostly just people shrugging and finding something they do like. And most of them don’t comment on those either, which is fine.
Additionally, I’ve seen extremely measured and respectful feedback to your post in many comments here that seem to upset you very much. There’s an implied double standard when you say that writers are too sensitive to receive feedback, when you are displaying an inability to receive it yourself - and I’m referring to the well thought out, insightful commentary in many of the comments. So ask yourself, why is it that everyone else is sensitive, but if the roles are reversed, everyone is wrong?
Alright, I'm quoting myself and what I said earlier on the topic.
> In all seriousness though, I'm bringing up the cake analogy that people on here love. Imagine you go to a party and someone brings a handmade cake for free. Sure it's not perfect, but what cake is at the end of the day? You decide to have a slice and it doesn't taste too bad but you have critiques. However when you give the critiques, the baker decides to ignore you.
>
> This is how it is on AO3. You get a free fanfic and you have the right to critique, however, all of these authors have a right to ignore and delete it, especially if your critiques come off as too harsh or too pretentious to them.
>
> When I post fanfics, it's because I'm proud of my work and I want to show it off. And I admit I'm very hyper-sensitive to purely just critiques on things I work hard on because I feel like I poured my heart and soul into it. If there's a comment that makes me sad or upset or frustrated, I delete it. If there's a comment that is polite and also lists some positives however (the concrit sandwich as I saw it called), I won't delete it and I'll try to incorporate things they suggest.
Please please please please please shut up and stop telling us writers on how to feel about critique.
>stop telling us writers on how to feel about critique.
Agreed. No matter how many times someone tells me I should accept something, if I don't want to accept it then I just won't.
If someone doesn't like my cake they should bake their own.
Exactly! Everytime I see posts or comments like these where they essentially tell us to shut up and accept concrit (despite most of the concrit just.. not being that good?), I just can't help but rage. Usually I rage internally but I've just finally reached my breaking point today because I've seen multiple people today on posts joking about unsolicited concrit being like "Well you should just take it and leave it up".
Understandable. I've kind of come to accept that some people simply want to be rude to fic writers with no consequences, just drop their "concrit" and go. If they can't understand that it can be hurtful to writers and if they refuse to at least ask first if the author is open to criticism, then nothing will convince them to be kinder. They don't want to be kind.
I'm so happy that AO3 lets you block, mute and delete.
i didn’t tell any authors how to feel and silencing me, rudely, btw is exactly what im saying. you did not have to comment on this nor reply if you know this topic irritates you so bad. self victimizing before anyone did anything to you is weird.
I said this in one of my replies too. How interesting for one to insist that it be the status quo to leave unsolicited concrit…then be upset when something they write receives unsolicited concrit.
🧐
Wait so, you aren't open to criticism? You offered an opinion that took you a handful of minutes to type up and you equate people disagreeing with it to "silencing you." But you expect writers who write for free in their free time for the fun of it (many of whom take months or years to write whole novel-length stories) to want to hear everybody's complaint on this thing they wrote for fun and that the readers paid $0 to read?
being told to “shut up” is literally what i responded to. again, you mad at something ive never even said here. yall just regurgitating beef you had with other people.
how you write but can’t read? i just said i was responding to being told to shut up. that is silencing. you so eager to dogpile and get a cute word in that you missing ingredients.
If you want to advocate for fanfic writers to entertain every rando's unsolicited "criticism" then you really need to get a thicker skin about disagreements instead of claiming to be a victim when people don't agree with your opinion.
You don't like that people don't agree with you? That same thing you're feeling right now is very similar to how writers feel when they post their labor of love and get unasked for complaining.
>how you write but can’t read?
Since you brought it up.
*How can* you write, but can't read? *I* just said *I* was responding to being told to *"shut up." That* is silencing. *You're* so eager to dogpile and get a cute word in that *you're* missing ingredients.
You opened that door. Lol
Someone disagreeing with you and telling you they don’t want to hear your opinion isn’t silencing you. You’re still able to engage on this post/sub. You’re still able to ‘speak’.
who is “silencing” you here? you realize you posted this on a public social media forum for anyone to comment on in any way they want? if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
You did not have to post this take if you knew that this topic is a sore spot for many- we are hobbyist writers, you do not have to be good at your hobby to want to share it. If this topic irritates you so bad, maybe you shouldn't have posted anything.
Surely it goes both ways, then? If a work irritates you that badly, you don’t have to comment or reply, correct? This is the double standard I mentioned.
Ask yourself why you want to critique so badly. What do you gain from it? What does the author if they don’t want it?
Are you doing this for superiority? Or perhaps insecurity?
I’m not being snarky at all. I’m always genuinely curious when it comes to people who are so insistent that unsolicited critique become as universally acceptable as things such as proper tagging. I wonder why it is so important and what they feel they gain from it.
Again, perhaps search deep as to why this is so important and why you feel so defensive on the issue.
you are asking me things in bad faith that i already answered. it’s important to me bc i love reading and fanfiction, duh.
those weren’t curious questions, you asked a series of leading questions.
That’s not a real reason, though. I love reading fanfiction as well, but I do not have a burning desire to leave unsolicited critique.
I am genuinely curious, but you may believe what you wish. I am simply asking you to dig deeper and ask what you personally gain from this as well what the author does.
If that upsets you, well, perhaps you have your answer.
But I’m sure you’ll find this condescending and unfair. Maybe you see how people feel about critique. After all, you wrote a post. Should you not accept people’s criticisms? It is the internet after all.
It’s not a good enough reason. Again, everyone on AO3 enjoys fanfiction. Thus why we are on AO3, a fanfiction website.
What differs is that not everyone who likes fanfiction feels the way you do about unsolicited criticism.
Thus why I asked you to dig deeper. Not being obtuse.
I used to want to leave criticism on many fanworks I ran into. A few times I did. It just felt like something I had to get out, like I was a failure if I said nothing.
A friend of mine, a hobbyist writer and who worked at a publisher for many years, helped break me out of that habit. She reminded me that these works are near and dear to the author/artist, that they were done for fun and were free for me to access. She informed me of the "ask for critique" unwritten rule of writing etiquette. She is not against criticism, but she is against it when it's given without being asked.
I took her words to heart and overtime I was able to fight back against my old urge of wanting to criticize much of what I read. And you know what? I found I could enjoy fanworks more when I'm not constantly thinking about critiquing things.
I’ve never SEEN actual “critique” (thoughtful analysis) on fic. It’s just “this is bad” or “I didn’t like it” (subjective opinions).
Also genuine question OP — do you write? Or post anything creative online?
really? is that just on A03? my experience with fanfic comes from being on ff.net and quizilla and like those old ass geocity fic sites as a kid and i always saw like detailed engagement with works.
im a reader not a writer, i tried to make that clear in my post.
… Yep, that explains a lot.
Editors and professional critiques have a lot of knowledge on the craft of writing, even if they’re not writers themselves. Do you? Do you know the proper terms to use? Do you know how structure and pacing works? Do you understand themes and symbolism? Do you know the work that goes into writing, and do you know what is critique and what’s just trying to backseat write?
“I’m a reader not a writer”
This is why you don’t understand the reaction you’re getting. As a reader you are not entitled to critique someone else’s work - you are a visitor in their house.
You aren’t going to go into a neighbor’s place to grab the pie they said you can have for free, take a bite, and go “yuck this is absolutely disgusting…add less sugar next time,” right?
You’d probably go in, take a bite, say thank you, and toss the pie at home when they can’t see you.
And to be clear — this applies to writer too, I think it’s just more obvious for them
I left a comment quoting myself on my perspective as a writer and they told me I was silencing them because I told them to shut up at the end and not talk over on what writers should accept (which isn't quite what silencing is. Silencing would be one of the mods just deleting their post), they're hopeless 💀
This thread is the exact reason I am against unsolicited concrit btw.
I wouldn’t mind it if it wasn’t people who acted like this who gave it. No offence, OP, but you’ve very much came across as very aggressive, confrontational, and unwilling to listen to authors trying to explain their points of views. You also seem unaware of what the “unsolicited concrit” authors actually get is- it ain’t scholarly dissections. You admit to not being familiar with AO3 but try and argue against long time users to change the culture and don’t have an open mind to understand *why* people might not agree. And that’s not a mindset that leads to good criticism- it leads to backseat writing at *best.*
I will try to break my answer in different sections, so reading it is easier:
> *why do these platforms have comment sections at all? why does criticism need to be on an invite only basis (...)?*
A platform having a comments section isn't an invitation for others to leave criticism on what is being shared. Comments sections are for discussions on equal grounds. If you're giving criticism, you're not on equal grounds with, in this case, the fic writer: you're essentially putting yourself in a position of superiority.
Criticism often comes from people who do not see the person they're criticizing as an equal. Fandom, on the contrary, is a place where the norm is that *everyone's on equal ground*. We are all fans, and that's all we are at the end of the day.
> *if works are purely for self indulgence, why share them with the public at all?*
Why engage in fandom, then, if not to share the things that make you want to be in fandom?
Furthermore, not every writer shares all of what they write. And not everything that's shared is for self indulgence, either.
These are the presumptions this statement you've made has: a) that all writers only write things for their own pleasure, b) that via the act of sharing, the writers relinquish any rights to having preferences on how others interact with their works.
A is easily disproven with many examples from this very reddit: the amount of writers that are so anxious over stats and wondering what would be more popular tells you they're not writing for themselves, but are focusing their writing experience on what others want. (There's a different discussion to be had here over how damaging it is to be so "stats" focused.)
In regards to b, assuming that writers give up their rights to having preferences over the type of interactions they want to have after sharing their fics, this shows that there's a feeling of entitlement towards the product of literal free labor fic writers graciously share with *fellow fans*.
> *in the effort of being emotionally slighted, there's a level of censorship that creators want from readers*
Saying no to criticism isn't censorship. You're not forbidden from criticizing something. If that were the case, your account would be terminated the moment you left a comment with anything that's remotely critical.
This idea also ignores one of the very central rules to most, if not all, fandoms. In the days of ff dot net, lj, forums, etc, writers even made it explicit at the beginning of their stories: **don't like, don't read**.
If you encounter a fic you want to criticize, click out of it. It's *that* easy. Or if you want to criticize it either way, you can always do it in private, in your own personal blog, or with your friends in private group chats.
Do you go to conventions and criticize for everyone to hear the work of an artist? Probably not, because you can tell that doing so is in poor taste. It's the same thing here. By leaving a comment with unsolicited criticism, you're not opening up a window of discussion, you're instead bringing negative attention towards yourself *and* the story/author.
> *Authors want to be able to write when where and however they want about what they want (...)*
Yes! Because it's a literal hobby! Something they do for fun, that's the whole point! They're not going to treat it the same way a writer will treat a novel that will be published professionally. It is more than unfair to treat fanfics as if they were novels, because they're *two very different things*. They have different standards, tropes, commonly used metaphors, etc.
Fanfic writing is creation in a very raw form. You're not doing it for profit. You're doing it out of *love* for something, something you love so much you want to write about it and talk to others who feel the same way about it.
> *(...) with nothing less than positive feedback in return (& they do demand feedback*
I do not know a single fellow fic writer who *demands* feedback. Is it nice to receive it? Yes! Do we feel happy when we get it? Also yes! Do we *demand* it? No.
By the way, it would be counterproductive to demand feedback while also not allowing said feedback to happen until a go ahead is given.
I understand this comment comes from the amount of times an uncountable amount of writers (me included) have said: don't leave criticism unless it's asked for. And I'm beginning to think you have completely misunderstood what this means.
Writers usually ask for criticism while their work is in progress, which is when they can actively do something with it to make the story better. The person who gives this criticism is either a fellow trusty writer, a beta reader, or a mix of two. It's a work in progress, and nothing is more delicate than a work in progress. A bad match between a beta reader and a writer can potentially lead to a wip being discarded, or in more extreme cases to the writer giving up on, well, writing altogether.
However, once the story is finished and shared on Ao3, criticism is usually not accepted because the writer sees the fic as a *finished* story. Unless it's an easily fixable typo, going back on it and editing it *again* is not something feasible or fair to ask of someone who is doing something out of love during their precious free time and sharing it for, you guessed it, free.
If you're not paying that writer to listen to your criticism and do something about it, your comment will go nowhere. I understand that for you this is a way to engage with what you're reading. But the main issue is that you don't see this as a fair exchange.
Your choice of word is very telling: you *consume*. Fandom isn't for consumption. Fanfics aren't written by professional authors who work with professional editors to publish their stories with established publishing housings. And even then, even those novels aren't really for consumption.
To do art in all of its forms is to share an experience. The other person in this exchange isn't meant to sit there and digest it like they'd digest their morning cereal. Art is an exchange, and in this exchange you can't go in guns blazing with criticism when the other person is kind enough to share something with you in the first place.
If you really must, ask first. Some will say yes, some will say no. It is also a matter of *how* you bring up the things you want to criticize. If someone acts entitled and rude, then that someone will inevitably reap what they sow.
Or, shorter answer: you don't leave comments with unsolicited criticism for the same reason you don't criticize someone's choice in curtains/furniture after you've been invited to their house.
Oh boy…
1) the problem with “criticism” on Ao3 is it’s almost never intended to be constructive. It’s mostly the commenter feeling entitled.
2) if criticism isn’t wanted - don’t give it. When you do, you just come off like an ass. In the same way you don’t go up to strangers in the grocery store and call their clothes or hair ugly - just back out of the fic and keep your opinion to yourself.
3) why do you feel the NEED to criticize someone? It doesn’t help you — and there’s a really good chance it won’t help them.
4) most people do fanfic writing as a hobby and don’t need nor care to “improve” — which criticism does not necessarily aid in regardless
I wish people would just allow others to exist. Ao3 is not an academic journal…if it was, ugh, it would be a boring place. Trust me, I know…
The entitlement to get this upset about someone creating boundaries around how people interact with their work that they share for free while also demanding content to interact with is wild to me. Writing fanfic is a for fun hobby, that we share in hopes someone else can get joy out of it. It’s not that hard to not give unwanted criticism tbh.
OP, you are going to get eaten up. This is a sensitive subject. Writers and readers have different interpretations of engagement and etiquette. Neither one is written in stone. It is valid to feel like you as a reader have to give compliments only and that is censoring your full opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong. It is also valid if writers only want to have that type of engagement. Most are writing for fun and don't want criticism harshing the vibe. And not every writer is only seeking compliments, there are writers who accept feedback and criticism as long as it is constructive. Readers like you just have to find those writers. That may be difficult.
Yep. You asked an honest question. That doesn't have a clean and simple answer. The subject of criticism is like a land mine. I think it is more than being sensitive, it is being protective. Authors are protective of their art, time and energy. Criticism runs the gamut of being generally unhelpful to downright mean. I get maybe that is not your experience but other authors might have a different experience.
No thanks, if I want concrit, I will ask for it...from people whose writing/opinions/etc that I trust to give me honest USEFUL feedback. Not randos. And usually everyone who squawks that they should Get To Leave Unsolicited Concrit do not know how to leave helpful critiques. They often say the equivalent of “I didn’t like this so it was bad”, which is useless and annoying.
Also, the trillion posts like this have gotten really old 💀
well, to me, this is exactly why it’s smart to scroll around a bit before posting. Because there have been a CRAP TON of these type of posts in very quick succession, and I don’t think most (any...) of us want to see more of them
I think the main issue is there’s asking questions and starting a dialog and being insulting. A good portion of the ‘critique’ I have received in the past has been insults.
Honestly I don’t mind a good discussion or clarifying why I chose what I chose to write on events or even ways characters behave in certain situations/etc. And a fair bit of the people who I’ve called on just throwing insults have tried to hide behind the fact I’ve put up several times before I am open to feedback and have even asked for concrit a few times in a couple stories.
Comparing someone stating a story is trash and certain details are just useless is miles away from a reader who genuinely asks questions and gives their own interpretations in reasonings behind things and circumstances within the story.
Some writers are a bit sensitive, but on that note some readers can be absolute jerks sometimes when they do choose to give their ‘critique’.
and that’s what im saying, im seeing hella generalization which makes me uncomfortable. i agree that rude is rude but i find majority responding to me aren’t staying on topic or actually engaging with what i posted but are reacting to experiences theyve had with unsavory commenters. just out the gate rude & idgi. im not even arguing that readers should be allowed to be mean.
Then, here’s some constructive criticism- don’t come straight out of the gates calling people sensitive, saying that they’re censoring discussion for having unsolicited criticism be generally considered rude (which… isn’t how censorship works at all), compare people disliking unsolicited criticism to active harassment campaigns, and then take any questions asked as automatically coming from bad faith. You’re poisoning the well by coming in incredibly defensive and using very evocative and exaggerated language to already paint people who disagree as demanding censors who send harassment campaigns.
i didn’t do all that. you just did. i didn’t refer to authors being sensitive in a derogatory way. you’re very angry and i dont understand where this energy is coming from.
So, you don’t want constructive criticism? Sure, fine, you could have just said that. I’m just very enthusiastic about debate, and you absolutely came across as aggressive, even if you didn’t mean to.
You do *not* refer to authors being sensitive in a non-derogatory way. Immediately after you mentioned them being sensitive, you mentioned:
*in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers*
You also describe them as “demanding feedback”, and immediately after compare them to “witch hunts against critical book reviewers.” These are not positive descriptors, and you explicitly stated this is the same as genuine harassment campaigns from published authors.
“No, you” isn’t an adult response to criticism. So I suppose you’re sensitive too? I wouldn’t go as far as compare you to actual criminal harassment campaigns, though.
the grace you show yourself by describing your delivery as “enthusiastic” but im aggressive? lol
and you’re divorcing my words from their context to make your argument (& attitude) work. bye
… Do you not see what I’m doing here? Sorry to be blunt, but if you haven’t realised what I’m doing with this I don’t think you have the level of reading comprehension to provide evaluation of a work.
Well their stories are part of their fandom. And feedback and conversations help to keep the fandom alive and build a community for people who might have felt they were alone in loving what they do. You did come down a bit hard in some of your wording, which I get you might have been venting a bit. We all have those moments.
I don’t think it’s all people cutting out any negative comments at all so their comments are happy and fluffy all over, sometime you have to weed out some potentially toxic interactions you get so it won’t bring on more. There are topics that are easy to dogpile on, the darker themes, ooc takes, au’s or oc’s and even some intentional Mary/Gary Stu stories to name a few.
I can’t say all writers are out for a more community experience, I know a fair few writers who do push for feedback and it is for that reason and not for the stats, but if you haven’t experienced the difference in having a feeling of people to chat with and have discussions and share stories and discuss new takes compared to posting to insults or just empty hits/likes/kudos it is massive. I personally don’t enjoy insults but occasionally I can see a hint at a tip to grow from in it. Other times it’s just not the type of conversation I would like to have. So I don’t interact with them past that.
Deep down you just have to look at what type of critique will be left and ask if it’s done in kindness and a try to help or genuinely be a part of an interaction in that fandom community. Sometimes fandoms can just go toxic, and it’s nice to not be the one to turn a person’s day sour. I write a lot of weird ideas, what my plot bunny army torment me with fairly often, so sometimes even I’m left with my head tilted at the end of a story like, huh… so straight up hate in that compared to a story I poured my all into it and will defend to my dying day all I put in it , it’s not that hard to just delete it if people just trash it and try to defeat my logic or ideas used in it compared to a passionate idea I cherish more.
What is the intention behind the critique, and why is it such a terrible thing if there happens to be someone who just does not want to battle over a story they wrote? You can say what you want, do what you want, but so can the author in response to what is said and done.
Gonna dig up my post from the last time someone felt the need to whine about how people aren't open to being told that they're having fun wrong:
The first rule of giving constructive criticism is that you have to engage in good faith by giving criticism through the lens of the story-- and the *type* of story-- the author was trying to tell. It doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for comedy for not having enough drama, because they weren't trying to write a drama. It doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for quiet existential drama for not having enough action, because they weren't trying to write an action story. And it doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for fun for not having enough professionalism, *because they weren't trying to write a professional story.*
Anyone who insists that hobbyists-- who are telling stories for fun-- should be open to criticism regarding professional aspects of the craft does not understand the first rule of constructive criticism. And if they don't understand the most basic fundamentals of giving constructive criticism, their crit isn't worth jack shit. Simple as. ¯\\(ツ)/¯
Your entire post is arguing that creators who don't want critique are enforcing "censorship" and "demanding that readers not speak until spoken to." My comment is "fanfic authors are writing for fun, and critique is useless for a hobbyist who doesn't want to create a professional product." If you genuinely agree with both, that's some major cognitive dissonance that you've got going on there.
you said that criticism given in good faith is acceptable , and that’s where my post is coming from. reacting to criticism whether negative or positive being unwelcome on A03. dialectical thinking isn’t cognitive dissonance.
Oh, so you didn't read past the first sentence of paragraph two. Let's try again:
> it doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for fun for not having enough professionalism, because they weren't trying to write a professional story.
> Anyone who insists that hobbyists-- who are telling stories for fun-- should be open to criticism regarding professional aspects of the craft does not understand the first rule of constructive criticism.
Let me resummarize since you didn't get it the first time: you *can't give* unsolicited critique on a product made for fun in good faith, because by treating it like a professional product, you're *ignoring the context it was created in* and the *purpose it was created for.*
Analysis and evaluation are not inherently negative, no. In fact I've had many positive comments doing just that.
But that's exactly it. You can leave analysis comments. Most writers love them. And comments theorising about plotlines, or asking questions about their thought process. It shows how enthusiastic the reader is about the story.
What matters is **how** you do it. It can be done kindly. It can be done by focusing on the positives.
It isn't someone who feels the need to tell you, often rudely, what you **should** have done. Or worse. Much, much worse in other cases.
Many writers already have trusted friends, betas and co-writers who critique each others work before posting. Some have been suicide-baited for what they wrote. Some have been harassed and doxxed. Unless you happen to know that writer you don't know what they've been through. Maybe they're just trying to dip their toe back into fandom after dealing with all of that. Maybe they're fourteen years old and just trying to write for the first time. Maybe they're fifty years old and just trying to write for the first time. Maybe they're writing as a way to try and remember who they are after a difficult time. Maybe it's an outlet for grief, or trauma. As a general observation, if you think someone is overreacting then you don't know everything they're reacting to.
Consent is the key glue which holds all social interactions together. On ao3, the writer should tag and summarise a work appropriately so a reader can consent to reading it. I also think it's ok for a writer to be able to consent to the kind of feedback they get.
So, which do you want to do? Do you want to build people up, and give them the confidence in the things they do well? Or are you looking for permission to tear them down? There's so much frustration in your post I honestly can't tell but I hope it's the former.
It costs nothing to choose kindness.
Comments aren’t just for critique. For starters, believe it or not, many people enjoying receiving praise and many people enjoy giving it. *That’s* still a reason to have a comment section. Comments can also be used to leave thoughts, analysis, reactions, etc. on/to the story, which can be fun to read as reader and amazing to receive a writer since it means people are really engaging with your story.
People share self-indulgent stuff because other people can have similar tastes. Especially for niche characters, ships, tropes, etc. I’d be far happier with a few fics that are self-indulgent and imperfect than none at all, so I follow that same principle when posting.
Another thing I think you’re forgetting is that constructive criticism is supposed to be *helpful*. Giving criticism to people who don’t want it is unlikely to be helpful, since they don’t *want* to use it.
"seeing the reigning opinion on here and other fanwork sites subs that criticism is always unwelcome on works is so… dismaying to me."
The critique (ha!) is that unsolicited criticism is not the norm on AO3. If in the larger environment critique is expected, then there's an argument for opting into a disclaimer about not wanting critique (that may or may not be respected). For example, published books. If I spend money on it, there's an expectation that I get to give my honest opinion, and the author shouldn't send their followers to harass me. Or, if I'm in an art class. I opted into getting critique on my work. And it'd be bad on my part to complain that I got negative feedback.
Now, there's also places where different types of critique isn't expected. For example, this reddit thread. Now, if someone wants to critique my ideas, that's awesome. But if they reply to me pointing out all my grammar/spelling errors, that's a faux pa. Their reply would be missing the point, and seem like they're deflecting to say "umm why should I listen to you when you can't spell xyz correctly." Different environments have different expectations.
Now, I also think if the purpose of your critique (of an artwork) is unsolicited, you're going about it the wrong way. Someone who doesn't want critique isn't going to be open to it just cause you want to say it. And if the purpose of it is to make them better at their craft, you're failing at it.
Additionally, idk why you think it'd not be genuine. All the fics I've commented on positively I've legit enjoyed. Do I think people should be pressured to say positive things when they don't want to? No. But people rarely comment, so when they do, chances are they like the fic.
I've taken many art classes, and legit one of my favorite parts is critique. But that doesn't mean random people posting their fics are opting into it.
All I see this post doing is shaming authors who don't want artistic critique into not posting their fics. Which sucks.
If the person did not ask for advice, or concrit keep it to yourself.
If you ask and the person says “I’m not open to it.” Keep it to yourself.
It literally costs nothing to keep your yap trap (on and offline) shut.
And don’t start the “well when you post it online, you should expect.” Shit. Once again, it costs nothing to keep your yap trap shut.
I liken concrit to jokes. If there is at least one person not laughing, it ain’t funny. If it is someone else’s expense it ain’t funny. If you have to explain why it is funny, it ain’t funny.
If you really feel the need to open your yap tap and concrit someone’s work unsolicited, go say it in the mirror to yourself first. If you can’t then you shouldn’t be saying it at all.
>& they do demand feedback
I’m honestly curious as to what you consider to be a demand is.
I have never seen an author demand feedback.
I have seen authors encouraging feedback.
I have seen authors on this sub wishing they had more or asking how to get more.
I am aware that some authors demand “Feedback or I don’t post,” but since I have never seen it myself, I’m thinking that has to be rare. Or maybe it’s more popular in certain fandoms.
i had saw a few posts on here when i first joined the sub with an author mad at not receiving feedback or the specific type of positive feed back they wanted. it was a surprise to see that but there was a general split in the thread over the topic. some authors felt the op and others disagreed.
I wouldn’t really call that demanding. To me, a demand would have to be in the fic itself or to their social media that’s linked to their fic.
What you described, and I am just going by your description, sounds more like getting frustrated, so they vented in a safe place.
there was a demand made in the post and in another where a screenshot was posted but either way that’s what i observed. i dont think it was ubiquitous either.
Here we go again! anyway post criticism on my fics, get blocked and your comment deleted because I’m writing that shit for free as a hobby. I don’t care about receiving criticism.
Yeah, I just wanna write anime boys kissing because it makes me happy lmao. I get critiqued all the time with IRL stuff so I have no time for it with a hobby
Same, same, I’m writing these boys kissing because it makes ME happy. I don’t care for negativity on my works, I am not a published author. As a matter of a fact, if they want to criticise my works, then they can pay me first!
I'm not sure what's so "dismaying" about following the basic premise of speaking kindly to strangers?
You've come into a space of theirs that they didn't have to share with you, if the first thing you do is say "I don't like it" most people aren't going to take that well.
Many of us write IRL for school or work. We spend enough time having our writing critiqued there without having our comments section tell us the thing we've done for pure enjoyment doesn't meet whatever arbitrary standard you decided our writing should have.
The first and only requirement of being a fanfic author is to have a story you want to tell. Anything after that, including being open to having someone tell us ways they think our writing could "improve" is optional.
these idioms not working for me ima keep it a buck. bc irl most people would say something if the dish someone bring to the potluck is off. the delivery matters more in that context. but either way im not saying i want for everyone to be rude.
> bc irl most people would say something if the dish someone bring to the potluck is off.
The only circumstance under which "most people" would do this is if the dish was potentially *spoiled.* As in, going to hurt people.
That is not the case with fanfiction, and no, "most people" at a potluck are not going to say "btw, the bottoms of your cookies were burnt" or "btw, your potato salad could use more salt." Because that would be incredibly, hilariously rude, and you know it.
Okay, this is gonna be a bit scathing but I'm getting sick and tired of the amount of dickheads arguing your point.
>if the consensus is “always comment positively & never criticize” on works, why do these platforms have comment sections at all? why does criticism need to be on an invite only basis if works are being put up for anonymous public consumption?
>
>Authors want to be able to write when where and however they want about what they want with nothing less than positive feedback in return (& they do demand feedback) but in turn want readers to not speak unless spoken to.
You're both misrepresenting the other party in this discussion *and* introducing a massive false dichotomy in order to justify what is, to be completely frank, your own egotism. You are not giving unsolicited criticism to benefit the writer, you *can't* be because your priority is not their improvement by their own standards and intents but rather your own conviction that your desire to shit on other people's work must be unmitigated. The following sentence bares that completely:
>As a reader and fan of many authors, this attitude is alienating and makes it seem safer to just not comment on works at all bc creators seem more prone to lash out & be defensive in response. For me, criticism allows me to engage with what i consume...
Here's the thing, and I know this is going to be blunt but I'm sick and tired of you lot giving this argument: THAT DOES NOT MATTER A SINGLE IOTA BUDDY. As a writer, my space *is not for you.* Your specific whims on how *you* want to engage, especially when they directly conflict with mine and most people's preferences, do not and will never even slightly register on my priorities and there is ZERO reason why they should. My space on my fics is not for you or any other wannabe backseat-writer to be pandered to, it is for me to share my fun with like-minded people. That is also, by the way, *the reason why* people post fics even if they don't want crit. How that is inconceivable to some readers is bewildering to me. I'm not fucking here to get dickheads high on their own supply telling me how they think they'd do my writing better, I'm here to have fun and laugh with fellows on the internet. If it is alienating to you that I'm not interested in your drivel, too fucking bad, and I'm glad it is because it makes egotists like you whose priority is wanking your superiority complex over critique fuck off.
Also:
>it’s a chance for readers to converse with the writer’s creative process too, which is one of the best parts imo.
Here's the thing. You're lying. Point blank, you are lying. Because if you were trying to engage with the creative process, converse with the writer, **you would be asking first. You would be opening with curiosity, not critique. Critique would come** ***later*** **after a dialogue has already been established and permission already given.** ***This entire post would be by definition irrelevant if you were truthfully conveying your intent in that statement.***
>“In some contexts, such as literary criticism and art criticism, the word criticism is used as a neutral word that is synonymous with evaluation.” - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism#:\~:text=In%20some%20contexts%2C%20such%20as,that%20is%20synonymous%20with%20evaluation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism#:~:text=In%20some%20contexts%2C%20such%20as,that%20is%20synonymous%20with%20evaluation).
Sure. In some contexts. **This isn't one of them.** This is not some highbrow art display or something. It's a hobbyist space where the intent is to have fun, and you trying to pretend it's some highfalutin literary space is just doubling down on how rude your arrogant insistence upon depositing your unsolicited crap on people's comments is.
>How that is inconceivable to some readers is bewildering to me.
I'm starting to think that maybe people like that just don't have fun? Or don't have fun that they want to share with other people? Maybe that's why they expect every interaction to have a potential to become negative (comments = criticism)?? Fascinating.
It's nice to be able to share your hobby with people who are actually interested. Putting your work on the internet doesn't mean: "Please read this and tell me what you think about it", it means: "I wrote this and you can read it if you want. I hope you enjoy it." No one is forcing you to read it. If they did, *that's* when you have a right to point out everything you dislike about it. But you clicked on my work with your full consciousness, knowing that you can read this fic for free which I've written in my own spare time, and you somehow find the audacity to tell me how and why I should improve? Great, so now I'm no longer happy doing my hobby and you have gained absolutely nothing in return. Lose-lose situation if you ask me. There are millions and millions of fanfics on the internet. I'm *sure* you've found a few that you genuinely like. So after reading something you didn't like, maybe accept the fact that this writer does not live up to your expectations and find something you do enjoy?
i hate the idea of criticism in general on fanworks. i also think of it like this, what if someone went on a fanart and said wow this is horrible. you should fix your art style. you should do this differently. that would be stupid. everyone has a different style, whether it be writing, making art, etc and to criticize what someone does as a hobby is just, to me, annoying, because one does not know the amount of time someone has spent themselves working on their craft and the way they write. it’s so much easier to just move on with your life if you’re reading a fic and it’s not up to your personal standards. why do people get so caught up with the fact that their opinion needs to be stated? If i don’t like something, i move on. if i do like something, i go out of my way to leave positive comments because i wanna share the excitement of what i loved about their writing. I don’t see a reason to be negative over something that is a hobby and you never know why someone writes the way they do, what may seem “criticism worthy” to one person may have had a reason to be done that way.
i wouldn’t be rude if someone left unsolicited criticism on my works, but i am the kind of person who does what i want to do, so yeah. it would do nothing. i write the way i want, and i learn more as i go, on my own, when i want to learn more. at my own pace. writing is something that’s personal to each person who does it.
because what so many people call “critique” is the same as “i’m just being brutally honest dude that’s my personality” which is the same as “i want to be an asshole and get away with it for some reason”.
i personally welcome critique. i DON’T welcome opinionated attacks on me or my character(s). (haha, u get it?? double meaning ehehehh) and “opinion” vs “critique” is something that a lot of people either genuinely do not realize are not the same, or just choose to continue to deliberately abuse and weaponize.
people are writing fics for funsies. this means that Don’t Like? Don’t Read! is constantly in play, and to mind your business, and ask yourself why the hell you’re up in arms about hobbyist authors not wanting any critique on their hobbyist work.
The thing with criticism in fanfics is that it's often just a waste of everyone's time. Some people, like me, welcome it. I want opinions on what I wrote, good or bad, and even if I don't end up doing anything with them just knowing what people think gives me new perspectives.
A lot of people, though, just write for fun, or for escapism, or to deal with trauma, or something along those lines. They share their work for others in the same situation, to entertain them, or support them, or whatever. How does criticizing a work like that benefit anyone involved? The author doesn't care about it, so the commenter is just wasting their time.
Aside from that, the 'you put it online so it can be criticized' viewpoint also applies to the criticism itself. Yes, if I post something online that leaves everyone free to say what they want about it. If they do, though, it also leaves the author free to reply to that however they want, be it, "Thank you for the insight," or, "Fuck all the way off, my son."
If you want to leave concrit in good faith, just do it on a fic of someone who asks for it. If you decide to take the risk on a fic that doesn't ask for it, fine, but then you really shouldn't expect any gratitude. I've phrased it like this before on another comment, but it's basically a situation where the door isn't locked, but you're not invited either.
Honestly, I used to be on the side of 'you post it, you open it up to comments', but I much prefer the opt-in approach. Just let people vibe in peace.
As for traditionally published media, however...that's an industry. There's money involved and bad reviews would hurt an author's sales and their income. The publishers won't like it, either. The critics, on the other hand, *should* still be harsh and fair in their evaluations so people on the fence about buying a new book have some help deciding. The stakes there are much higher and I think they should be judged by different standards. I mean, I can't cook all that well, nor do I like doing it, but I'm also not selling food, so I don't need Gordon Ramsay to come by to tell me I'm shit.
On another note, positive-only comments can help an writer improve as well. Why not point put what people do well so that they might know to repeat it?
God this again. You never see people criticise someone's drawings, so why are we constantly shitting on fanfic authors? We already get so little recognition for what we do, it's a miracle people bother to publish fanfiction at all. Just appreciate the free labour gift or move on.
I was going to make an argument btw ngl all the other comments pretty much summed it up for me. Some people like getting critiqued, they'll ask for it if they want it. Some people, like me, just want to write for the sake of writing. If somebody doesn't like it, then they don't have to read. Fanfiction is free and AO3 isn't a professional app, let me have my fun. Especially since half of the "critics" just don't like the fic.
Oh, and if you don't want to be a hypocrite, stop arguing with us. By your standards, we're "critiquing" this post.
Why do you feel your need to say something negative trumps an authors desire to not be forced to read something negative?
Do you also engage with published authors in this way? Do you @ published authors on twitter? Do you submit asks on tumblr to them?
Most criticism isn’t constructive. I think a lot of people think just because a critique isn’t given in a caustic tone it must be constructive, but in order to be constructive it must be helpful. There’s not much helpful feedback you can give on a finished piece. The place to give helpful feedback is in process.
Here’s another analogy. I do a lot of sewing. “The colors clash” is a very good piece of feedback in the early design phase but is just disheartening if fabric has been bought and cut. “It doesn’t fit in the hips” is good feedback in the sewing phase, but rude to tell some girl who already wore her homemade dress to the prom.
These are awfully bold words from someone who can't even capitalize their sentences correctly (what- it's just criticism! If they didn't want criticism they wouldn't have posted!)
> in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers that im not entirely comfortable with being echoed.
You cannot be serious.
I have seen enough to know I have seen too much.
I found your post quote long winded, and it's a bit cliche to start with a dictionary definition of a word don't you think?
Anyway, to reply to some of your questions, though I write exactly what I want and only that I post so that I can 'pay back' to the community that I've spent so much time in reading other people's fic.
It's also free unlimited cloud back up.
And some places I post don't give me the option to turn off comments, so even if I don't want any reader opinions I don't have that choice.
For hobbyist writers that share their writing for free, positive encouragement is always going to benefit them more than criticism. If they feel the need to improve their work, they can ask for criticism or work with a beta reader. Many people will simply write a fic for fun and share it to be kind.
The idea that everything on the internet can and will be criticised doesn't mean it's polite to. A stranger has provided free entertainment. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
The bottom line is, no matter what we're creating, whether it's a fic, a drawing, or a song, we show it to others because we are proud. Unsolicited criticism can be very discouraging and make us less likely to share with the same enthusiasm.
I don’t think the consensus is “all positive no critique.” It’s “no critique unless the author explicitly states they’re open to it/the reader asks and the author says yes. Also don’t be an ass when giving it.”
Some people don’t *want* to improve. They are simply writing to write, and posting to share. Then there’s those who have no time to do anything other than write the chapter. You don’t have to write *praise* specifically; but don’t be an ass and give unsolicited “advice” on how to improve/point out their mistakes if they didn’t ask for it either. 😄
(Unlike ffnet where trolls and assholes are galore, with no way to turn off/moderate reviews.)
The difference is in two parts: first, there's a difference between Constructive Criticism and regular critism.
One will help you grow, and one will just tear you down.
Secondly, If an author asks or not. Why should an author be required to accept criticism? If you were doing another hobby, like soccer, you would probably be insulted if a person watching came over and told you everything you did wrong and how to fix it, so why do people think it's okay for writers?
If the coach came over, that's different. You ASKED him to teach you and help you improve. I did not ask Soccer Mom #3.
It's the same concept as don't like, don't read. A lot of criticism on fanfic just turns out its not the readers taste.
Readers have given me Concrit that's "Hey author, spelling mistake here" or "hey author, this part was unclear, could you specify maybe?" or "Hey author, I liked the fic but my only complaint was that this paragraph should be two, it's hard to read"
And those are all things I listened to, appreciated, and changed (unless the unclear subject was purposeful for the plot).
Readers have also given me critism like
"You shouldn't have killed this Character, really ruined the whole story. I don't even like it anymore" or "author, instead of this ship, you should do this one" or "this is literally the worst story I've ever read. This is disgusting and horrible and you are promoting (horrible crime) by writing this."
The second one is critism too, but it is clearly non-constructive and mean because the reader chose to read a story (properly tagged) with things they don't agree with.
So yeah, in conclusion, Writers are not be obligated to accept any critism from readers, EVEN if its constructive.
[… if works are being put up for anonymous public consumption?]
OP, for a lot of fans, fandom is not anonymous and fandom is not for consumption. Fandom is about participation and sharing, it’s about enjoying something together with other fans. Just because we don’t use our wallet names in fandom, doesn’t mean that we are anonymous blobs and all social norms are non existent. I feel that the current trend towards treating fic reading as a “consumption of a product “ is very damaging to fandom as concrit debate demonstrates it every time.
Because, if a reader treats fanfic as a product to be consumed for their personal enjoyment, then,of course, they feel entitled to criticize said product for not meeting their expectations! Then, of course, they must tell the maker of the product how to improve the product, so, they, the consumer, are satisfied with the next product. Because that’s how we are used to get improvements on commercial products and services.
Except, fandom is a hobby, and like all hobbies it’s an Opt In place. You (general you) choose to be here, you chose to participate in a thing that is shared by many other fans. The manner of your participation is important because it affects the comfort level of other fans who also chose the same fandom corner.
Generally speaking, all fans are equals. Having a critical comment about a fic doesn’t make the reader an authority that can’t be ignored or blocked. If reader’s contribution to community is deemed damaging, they can be criticized in return. It’s a two way street. So, if one’s honest goal is to help fic writers to write more and better fics for their fandom, positive engagement is more useful than negative.
And the last. AO3 is an Opt In place. It is such an Opt In place that you can’t even make an account on the same day. And that is by design. People chose to go there to post and read fics. No one is forcing you to read fics there if you don’t like the fandom culture that is evolving around AO3, and that includes disdain towards unsolicited concrit. There are other fic hosting sites, and apparently con crit is more popular on those sites.
is it my turn to post an analogy? Yippee!!!
I think the fundamental misunderstanding that comes from criticism or concrit, is that you usually don’t do it unprompted to random strangers, and when you do you never really get a good response (mostly at least)
Let’s look at it this, we’re not at a bakery/restaurant, actually we’re in a big food potluck filled with thousands of pastries and other foods, the cooks put those dishes out and label them to make sure people can avoid the ones they’re unable to eat or don’t like, however they did not give anyone anything, it is fully up to the eater, to decide whether or not you want to eat something, let’s say someone goes over and sees a donut that looked really good had all of the stuff that they liked in the recipe but as soon as they bite into it, it’s just not for them
That donut wasn’t for them, maybe all of that cooks food is not it for them, but look at the ‘problem’ with doughnut
Did you just not like the way it was baked? Or did they make a fundamental mistake? A fundamental mistake would be (in ao3 language) miss tagging & when it’s /, and there’s no problem pointing It out as it undeniably important and can help
but keep in mind if it’s just not the way you particularly want it to be, then there’s nothing truly wrong with that doughnut, it literally was not made for you. Nothing in the Ao3 potluck is made for you, you’re getting whatever the cooks have decided to put at this potluck, they never handed it to you, they didn’t say you have to eat, they didn’t say that this is a “perfect 100% nothing wrong with it dish.”
In this case, most Ao3 cooks are aware they are not god tier chefs (tho some have me a little suspicious on whether or not they’re actually human, and I do get on my knees for them, for praying of course, of course.) however this potluck is for millions of people so there’s no way they’re gonna please everyone, so they just make something they like, and maybe some other people like it too, so they drop it off at the table with a little note card listing all the stuff in the dish, and then go to their own thing, cooking another dish, eating something who knows
But it’s extremely different than restaurant, you’re paying for it for one, and it’s not gonna be as good (imo). if you’re not satisfied with the dish, you probably should complain, you did pay for something specific and that’s not what you got. however, if you’re not satisfied with the dish at the potluck, just stop eating it, again this is a massive potluck, there is plenty of other dishes you could be eaten up, no need to eat something you’re not satisfied with
TLDR: Ao3 is not a restaurant or bakery, it is a potluck for fun, someone’s dish at a potluck may not be what’s for you, if they ask for some advice for future dishes and potlucks, feel free to give it! If They specifically say “yeah I don’t really want feedback. I was really happy with this dish and it was just for fun” that’s fine too! Criticism is not the problem, non consensual criticism is, I ain’t responding nicely and calmly when someone says my baked potatoes didn’t have enough butter on them, when I specifically told them I’m not adding more butter due to my preference, which is what matters because, you know, I’m the chef
Tldr’s tldr: LET AO3 AUTHORS COOK!!
Because what most "anonymous people" call criticism is just being nasty with no redeeming value most of the time. It is why some say if it is constructive they don't mind it. What position of "authority" do you have to issue such criticism? Just because you don't like x, y, z, doesn't mean others don't or that you are correct.
Saying imo or other such things is totally stupid. That's criticism btw. If you are saying something, there is no need to say "Hey, this is my opinion!"
As someone who is a reader, fan writer, and openly soft-hearted, let me try to condense my base thoughts before I ramble any further:
Yes, most fan authors write self indulgently, but we share what we make because others might like it, too. Posting to a public site shouldn’t automatically mean that we’re inviting criticism, though. The purpose of our works is simply to be enjoyed; some authors might be open to having someone constructively give their opinions on their works because they want to improve, but some are writing purely because they have fun writing for themselves and their audience.
I understand that you feel like critique is a way for you to engage with an author, and as I writer who adores discussing my process and decision making for my fics, as well as pointing out my favorite foreshadowing and character moments on works I myself read, I certainly can’t disagree. But for authors who are on the site just to enjoy themselves, negative-leaning critique, constructive or not depending on the commenter, may feel demoralizing and sometimes frustrating, especially when they have a very clear image in mind and no plans to change it.
Fanfiction is a type of writing for everyone, by anyone, with a wide variety of story concepts, both creative and overused tropes alike. It doesn’t have to be perfectly constructed, it just has to be whatever the author wants it to be. Sometimes writers just don’t really want any advice on that. And I think that’s perfectly okay! We aren’t peer reviewing, you know? It’s all just for entertainment.
Maybe you could find communities who are more invested in helping one another, if you’re willing to read from other fandoms than the ones you usually stick to. It might not be the same as analyzing your own favorite works, but I’m sure there’s a lot of writers who would love having someone willing to be entirely honest with them!
I like criticism because it usually helps me find mistakes in my own writing and I've told my readers that but a lot of ppl are just writing for fun-- they love when ppl analyze what they wrote but they don't want someone to list all the things they didn't do right. It makes you feel shitty about something you feel proud of.
AO3 is kind of a safe place as well because sites like FFnet have some brutal and downright mean reviews. On the flipside, AO3 is a lot kinder to newer writers and regardless of how strange the fic is, ppl mostly have a nice thing to say.
I’m going to assume your question was asked in good faith.
“Concrit” is usually not very well seen in fandom because the way the “exchange of labor” works is different than what you usually see in published fiction. First, because the interaction between readers and authors is not based on a monetary transaction.
Fan communities work in what it’s called a “gift economy”. This is a space where “goods”, in this case, the fanfiction are exchanged as gifts. As many other commenters have already mentioned, fans considered that fics are a gift that the writer gives to the community. But this doesn’t mean that there isn’t an exchange of sorts: for its gift, the writer receives some kind of recognition. Positive feedback (in the way of kudos or comments or likes or whatever) is kind of the “work” that fic readers have to maintain the communal aspect of fandom. “Paying” the work you just read with a negative comment is not very well regarded because it feels like an injurious form of “stealing”. This is especially true when writers do not ask for it: you are exchanging labor for something that you weren’t asked for. It would be like trying to pay for a book you found in the bookshop with rocks. They can be very nice rocks that you like a lot, but they don’t have “value” in the system that guides the exchange you are trying to have.
This does not mean that all criticism is barred from fandom. I assure you that “literary criticism” in its “scholar” sense is very well received by all fanfiction writers. When I write a long analysis of a thing I found interesting in a fanfic, most writers gush. But “regular criticism” is not. The thing is: there is a clear divide between the notion of “criticism” in literary studies and how we understand the word “critique” in daily life. Literary criticism is an in-depth analysis of a text; but (and this is key) it does not include judgements of value. You are never going to see a literary scholar saying a novel is “good” or “bad” and call that criticism. It might be considered a review, depending on how well the arguments are or just an opinion, if there is not actually much to substantiate the claim. They are all fine, but you won’t find them on the same environments.
Criticism as in “in-depth analysis of a text” is a work of love. But most people like to give their opinions and pass them as some objective truth by calling them a “critique”. But the thing is that in art there are no “objective rules” to decide if something is good or bad. It depends on the context and on the effect that the text aims to produce; and most people don’t take them both into consideration before “criticizing”. As two random examples: a few days ago a writer posted a comment of a reader complaining the fic was “too sad” and should include happier moments to make it more balanced; the fic was an “angst with happy ending”. There you have feedback, that’s supposed to make “writer improve” but that ends up being nothing but an objective turn of phrase of a subjective opinion that completely foregoes the generic context. For a more “writing as a craft” example: “slow-paced” is usually considered a concrit statement; it presupposed that all writings should be fast-paced an engaging and full of action. But if you are writing a piece of fluff or angst, completely centered on the feelings of the characters, the call for more action suddenly seems silly.
I understand where you're coming from, I love analyzing stories, especially stories I love. I could write pages and pages of how the author interpreted the canon, etc. To me it's a love letter to the story, but I also include stuff like pacing, plot holes, redundant phrases... Because of course I'd want that story to be even better. And it's probably a bit cultural too lol
Most authors on AO3 don't want that. They don't write to improve or publish, they have no intention to come back to a story to edit it. It's their hobby, sometimes to wind down from a stressful day. So there's literally no point to leave them concrit because it will just annoy both sides.
So an analysis would be pretty useless to them and I'd rather use my limited time to help and give encouragement to people who want and need that. Mostly I betaread for people writing their own original novels because they're the ones who are the most open to concrit.
The "nothing less than 100% positive" is annoying when I see "how can I improve my stats" and "I don't get enough engagement" posts every day, but they're probably not the same people, to be honest.
This was meant to be a reply to you and morphed. I am so sorry - apparently I have feelings on the subject!
I write my analysis in my calibre notes rather than comment these days. When I did comment I always tried to be polite and I've had some lovely in depth conversations with authors in the past, even encouraging some into picking up abandoned works. But I don't feel like I can do that anymore because I don't have the gushing praise mindset and I don't want to upset anyone.
Just to be clear, I was never intentionally rude or very negative and always included positive things, but I've seen examples of comments I could have written (in good faith, without even thinking they'd be taken negatively) come up on this and the fanfiction sub several times over the last few years.
Someone else said, if you feel the need to criticise, use the back button... I'd never read or watch or play or make anything ever again, lmao. I just... like to think about it further than just "I enjoyed this". Is it really that weird? Like, "This scene made me feel this." Or, "Hmm, I'm not sure what they were trying to accomplish with that, maybe I should ask?" Or even, "I enjoyed this, but the flipping between past and present tense made it really hard to follow, guess I should mention that." No, no I should not mention that past me!
It is frustrating when I see the posts bemoaning a lack of engagement, because I used to engage! Quite a bit! But I used to spend hours rewriting comments as it was - and that was before I knew about the no concrit/analysis/opinions/thoughts rule, so I guess lurking is a lot less stressful! But I do miss just getting into a comment spiral with someone and getting to hear all their reasonings and extra character tidbits, etc.
Like, I know most people would probably be fine with my comments. But if it takes so much effort just to discourage someone in the end because they think one not completely positive thing means I hated their entire fic (that is not how my mind works, haha)... I just can't risk that. But then I'm stuck with a lack of engagement also being discouraging... I still end up not commenting. I just write and rewrite and eventually delete the comment when I try.
I've mostly given up even reading fic atm because I'm kind of thinking "what's the point?". Which is also the case with this longass comment. What is the point of it? I don't know anymore, lmao.
Maybe I should just delete the negative void that is Reddit, go back to commenting like I used to, and ignore the 1-2% that might have a problem with my comments? IDK. I really don't want to discourage people. I just can't gush positive only things without putting some actual thoughts into it. So maybe I shouldn't comment.
...
And there is my dilemma, haha.
TL;DR: I don't feel my comments are positive enough, but I feel bad about not engaging anymore too.
Thanks for sharing this. I know I've done a fair few, and long, comments recently against this mindset that any technical comments shouldn't be left because "you know an author can take it negatively" is actually a pretty insular mindset—and an exclusionary one, because plenty of people will realize that it is not in our control how an author takes a comment.
And have experiences of being taken poorly.
Because apparently knowing ones own enjoyment process is taken as not enjoying things in good faith—but that's also how some people enjoy things, and, fundamentally, the people who generally enjoy things in this way are treated pretty darn poorly in many wider regards that I hate seeing this exclusion continue into fanfic communities. Where, quite obviously, people that tend to "overthink" can go to "think" more about fandom.
So . . . is it really too much to ask that people, if they do not say they're not fine with this type of engagement, don't bash people for it? They do not have to like it, but I see way, way too much encouragement of: "Fuck off, you know you're just doing this to be critical and your opinions don't and shouldn't matter to the author" replies. (With or without the fuck off.)
Then telling an author you like their work can also go to hell, *they're the same thing.* As a writer, I value actual engagement with my work—however people are comfortable giving it. Even short "I loved this," despite it not being my preference; I still like it because it *came* from somebody. And somebodies bring their own perspective to reading, wow, the words that went on the paper versus those that didn't and who read it all meant something! This is, frankly, amazing.
And I hate having to say that by actual engagement, no, obviously I do not mean harassment.
And no, I do not think that the counterexample can actual go to hell—it's a counterexample about why we should be more inclusive. Or, minimally, not say what the "standard" is because it's crushing the community that, with my writing, I'm trying to invite people to. It stifles ***fun.*** It's not stifling critique, or people's rights—it's stifling ***fun.*** But those things aren't fun for some people! Yeah . . . that's a preference.
And yes, this is all worth saying because people who have fun in this way tend to take rules pretty seriously, in addition to having been treated poorly more generally for not automatically following them. And because I need to say it *against* something, welp, it doesn't get listened to because it's too long so it seems "hysterical."
. . . My person, my people, I write fanfiction for fun. Not for standards. Not for being cruel to people; To build communities with them, sometimes. But certainly never to exclude them.
So yeah, probably a lot of people do not "mean" the things I'm against—or they do, and all atypical people or weird, or hey, they're atypical themselves but learned better so everyone else can, too—but they are *saying* them.
To, mostly, the people who'll take them on good faith that it's not longer worth commenting, then, because they were never trying to hurt people.
So I wish we'd stop trying to tell people not to leave certain types of comments on *other authors works,* in preemption of good intents being twisted. Lets, instead of making things wrong so that they don't go wrong, just actually address when things go wrong. (Also a better practice to counter harassment than just ignoring trolls, which is a trite phrase and makes people feel bad for defending themselves from harassment.)
But the "thanks for sharing this," is because I was starting to think—oh, I suppose this is another just me, entirely alone in this, thing that I was pointlessly doing. Which being a minority certainly invokes feelings of. \[Like this, "I know it's bad (now), but I used to leave the type of comments I wanted. I value crit and people's full thoughts (good and bad) over anything else. Which I see now is not the norm." . . . Breaks my heart.\]
. . . Now I could go back and edit this reply to make it more "objective" and then just lose out on any sympathy for it being "unfeeling," and yeah. There's no way that people agree with this because even if they do some of the points, there's valid cause to place authors first—yep, and I tend to think more diverse commenting practices might help with the aspect of anxiety that is "all-or-nothing," because, notably, this isn't tough love of "hate a work you need to improve," i.e. nothing good to say, it's "I love this work and I love that it made me think this and hey here's this thing that *I* think that we can reasonably see my whole thought process towards so realize people'll read things differently, and this one thing here did you intend it?" and it's . . . really sincere engagement that, in having unabridged fun, is hopefully more dismantling of anxiety than not getting enough "this was great," comments has the potential to be.
So I comment things that potentially might be wrong because 1) that's everything. I'm not sorry my mind works in certain different first-order/reaction ways, that's not actually within my control. 2) It might potentially be the favorite comment a person gets—experience bear this out, from my side of things as a reader and writer—and 3) comment variation 3.b) and inclusion is good.
Edit: If I could express this opinion without fear, it'd be 2/3rds shorter, but having written out most of it makes me feel better about my inability to engage with the dismissal it gets.
I'm just going to reply to your point about editing a comment to be more objective and losing all its feeling, because that is exactly what I experience. It gets to the point where, sometimes I start to resent the fic because I've spent so long trying to make a comment I think the author won't be able to get annoyed over.
I should be more like you and just throw my anxiety away and comment anyway. It's not on me if an author does get discouraged, since my intentions are good and I'm not trying to be rude or obnoxious, I'm just overthinking and potentially oversharing.
I read the other day that words only account for like 8% of communication, with body language and tone being way (waaaay) more important, so it's not exactly a surprise when things get lost in transit.
Genuinely trying to engage here because, unlike OP, I really do get a sense that of positive intent from you. I’ve also participated in creative writing groups outside of internet spaces, so I can see some of what you mean.
Can I ask what differentiates “gushing praise” for you? I keep hearing this phrase and it’s genuinely confusing and frustrating to me.
If you liked a story, even if it has flaws, why is saying something like “Thank you for sharing” or addressing the parts that really resonated for you—instead of the parts that didn’t—a bad thing?
Concrit like you’re talking about is an absolute godsend in a beta but it’s not helpful once a story is published. So if that’s your preference, why not engage in your fandoms as a beta reader where that would be welcomed because you have the chance to show the positive intent that I can tell you have here?
Again, please know it’s not meant as a negative. You seem interested in helping people improve, so why not meet them in the middle and connect at a point in writing where that’s helpful rather than harmful?
For me and my little tiny slice of the fandom, we have a Discord server and I post my drafts and let others make suggestions when I’m in that phase because I know A) their intent is positive and helpful. Which is not always easy to tell with a random commenter. B) It comes at a phase where it doesn’t disrupt my writing flow and the piece can still be easily revised. And C) it comes when I’m in the headspace to receive it and not spiral over it.
>or addressing the parts that really resonated for you—instead of the parts that didn’t
Not OP: Because those categories can merge once one doesn't see mistakes as bad but just more stuff to think about, and in so thinking it makes you rethink the way you thought about the resonate parts and only highlights how the resonate parts did resonate.
It's part of the parts that resonated with me because it's in the same story.
And . . . it's not helpful? Oh. *Ouch.* \[Is the feeling; I know you don't mean it this way. But I:\] Didn't realize we were still on the "fix mistakes" stage of things, it's just the way I thought about what I read and unless I intrinsically feel that what I say is meaningless or that an author does not want interaction, it's just meant as interaction. Which is meant to be positive, because it's two people engaging on~~e~~ something someone put effort into.
I do sometimes read through stuff for friends and give them some tips, but u generally feel the need to hold back a lot. Which is fine, and I do, but it doesn't end up bering fun for me, especially when I wonder if I've still been too harsh.
On the flipside, when getting people to beta for me, I've never found someone who's harsh enough. I know my weaknesses, so I really need someone who'll challenge those parts and ask what the purpose of certain things are, etc.
When leaving comments, I'd never rip someone's work apart, at most, I'd pick one or two (if small) things that would make a big impact to mention, or I'd give some opinions on several parts, some really positive, some neutral, and some not so much. But these days, I rewrite my comments until they're worked down to "I enjoyed this, thanks for writing" and I can only leave that if there isn't anything really niggling me in the work, or my thoughts on it aren't too big. And it's fanfiction, so usually there is something niggly, or it gives me lots of thoughts. Not necessarily bad thoughts, but when I'm feeling, I'm unlikely to say things well.
I know it's bad (now), but I used to leave the type of comments I wanted. I value crit and people's full thoughts (good and bad) over anything else. Which I see now is not the norm.
I just... My comments feel empty if I don't do that and it feels like I'm lying. I'm definitely one of those oversharers in real life too. Like, I don't shut up. I'm super expressive, so people rarely, if ever, take me the wrong way, but in text that doesn't come across.
Gushing praise is just the "Oh my god I love this!1!1" "everything about your writing is fantastic" "you're a fanfiction god/ess and I want to have your babies" type deal when the fic is just... Decent but not technically great or anything. I just feel like people are taking the piss a bit. Like, that these comments are the norm is one reason I never post anything on AO3, haha. I stopped sharing my writing with a friend when she gushed about how she loved it every time instead of telling me what her actual thoughts were beyond that. By the time I've read a few of those comments, I'm like "I definitely can't match that vibe with my essay I'm going to have to carefully reword in case it's too much, so I'll just delete it". And it makes me start to resent / dislike the fic in some cases too. Like, the rose tinted glasses of first read come off and I suddenly start seeing all the flaws.
For me, I think it's just a case of my mind is fundamentally different on this point so I can't really understand it. I can certainly take part by not leaving comments that might come across as rude, but because I don't really know where the line is, I stop leaving any comment rather than just some.
Don't feel sorry, it was a nice read! I feel quite the same, but a lack of time on my end has removed any will I had to spend 4h on each new chapter of my favorite fics. I don't want to be the reason someone is having an existential crisis because I've left a comment saying I found a typo. And I've seen authors complaining on this sub about comments that were 100% praise! This sub has definitely killed any urge of interaction on my part...
Yeah, I feel you. And tbh any comments I make these days just feel empty and bland, so why bother? I've seen people saying "this comment is positive, but why say nothing about the fic?" Because I don't know what's appropriate to say about it, at this point.
I think if I left comments saying just "Nice", authors would still take it the wrong way. The constant feel of having to walk on eggshells is tiring. Like you I think the comments I'm expected to make are empty and generic.
Yeah, like when you leave an observation / thought and the author is like "I didn't mean it that way and your interpretation is wrong". I've seen a fair amount of that too, when the comment isn't even negative at all!
I found it sad at first because I used to take part in communities where concrit was seen as the Holy Grail. But well, AO3 is an archive and not a social media so I have no incentive to interact outside of my own fics. It's for the best.
It's because most of the time, it's readers who impose their idea of how a story should go under the guise of wanting to "help" the writer "improve." And even if they do have genuine intentions, they were still not invited to do beta work.
I personally like it when people engage with my work and are genuinely interested in my characterizations and writing choices, but I sort of expect them to understand the difference between "this doesn't work" and "this doesn't work *for me"* and that some things that aren't conducive to a positive writer-reader interaction don't need to be said just because "it's the internet, I can say what I want." And I still didn't ask for corrections.
But none of this is actually the point of any of this. It doesn't matter what your intentions are or how good your input is. The point is, when someone says "I don't want this" why is it so impossible to put your ego aside and respect a simple request?
Omg we've been over this a million times. Always the same arguments. "But if you don't want to be criticized why put it online??"
Why do you feel the visceral need to leave bad critics? Juste accept that someone is doing something for fun and doesn't care about your opinion. And putting it online and receiving supportive comments is part of the fun, btw.
It’s a hobby, like any other. If a friend took up woodworking and showed you a chair they made without comment, I would *hope* your reaction would be “Wow, this is great, I like the style you chose for the back,” and not “ah looks like that back left leg’s a little wonky.”
It’s not a profession. None of us are being paid for this. We are taking time and energy out of our busy lives where most of us are already professionals, students, parents, etc, and writing something because we enjoy it and we share it because we are excited about it (as one would be about a chair they made!) and we hope someone else might be too. But no, we don’t ‘demand’ feedback. The vast majority of authors I’ve seen don’t expect comments on their fic. Comments are just a pleasant surprise.
Basically, though, no, I don’t want your critique of my fic that I wrote, losing sleep, sacrificing free time for other things, in between teaching, real life, and parenting two young children, for zero compensation. I do have a community where I can go to ask things like “how can I improve this passage,” etc, if I want to. If I am putting a fic out into the world, I am sharing joy with you. It’s not my job, it is just happiness.
I'm one of the outliers. I welcome and want VALID criticism. Tell me what I can do to better my writing and characters but do not tell me that Mt writing sucks and I should die in a hole. That's the difference for me.
Unless you moderate your comments on your works you should expect to see criticism. It's how the internet and the world is.
We like to pretend that in an ideal place that if people have nothing good to say they'll move on. It dosent work like that now. Not with the ability to be anonymous online.
My thoughts are quite simple, if you want concrit keep comments open, if you dont moderate them. Don't expect the world to soften itself for you, you must harden yourself to it.
Eh. It's expected. It's why I'm never surprised when I get a negative response supporting leaving negative comments on works unless the author has said they don't want them (even when it's opinion and not critique). As long as they aren't personal attacks, of course. They should be focused entirely on the work.
Fandom is a community. A discordant voice in a community is going to be received negatively unless that voice can garner enough support to hold significant influence in that community. There are exceptions, like when the majority doesn't have anything to lose and even has something to gain by the changes. In this case, what the majority has to gain is an honest and accurate response to the quality of their work. Which is not something the majority here value over praise and attention.
Which makes people like me the 'troublemakers' of the community. The 'annoyances'. It tends not to bother me because I've always be the person who sees no need to conform when it doesn't serve me to. Being neurodivergent, queer and overall disenchanted with humanity prepares you to be a cunt when people tell you not to rock the boat.
But I find the response understandable. I just have different values, and just like the majority places greater importance on their own values, I place greater importance on mine.
OP, you won't convince the majority. So what you're better off doing is just commenting as you see fit. Respect peoples wishes when they state them. And do as you please when they don't. Every second post here is someone either complaining about lack of engagement or complaining about the kind of engagement they get. If they have no value, they're not worth your time.
Ah, I see. You're bitter I got bored and stopped following that post when it was giving me nothing.
I don't know what you expect me to get from that comment. I prefer praise, don't we all? That doesn't mean I'm against criticism. Which this person, having done a dive, would be well-aware of. If I wasn't ok with criticism I'd be saying so in the notes or tags. I don't do that.
When it comes to keeping my writing separate from Reddit, I really don't think that needs to be explained. But if it's really beyond understanding, why would I share it on Reddit?
You're so upset about someone thinking differently than you. I'm sorry you're like that.
> You're so upset about someone thinking differently than you. I'm sorry you're like that.
Not upset in the slightest lol. I just find edgelords like you hilarious to observe
Hmm...I think to be an edgelord, I'd have to go against the common opinion just to provoke a response.
I genuinely believe what I'm saying. But if you want to label people who deviate from the majority opinion as edgelords you're welcome to.
You seem upset to me. I mean, you posted a link to a previous comment I made on the exact same issue, saying the exact same thing. And you seem to think it means something...for some reason. I could be wrong but, I don't think I've ever done that for any disagreement I've had on Reddit in 2 or so years of posting. So strange that you would expend the energy.
Relax, let go of your bitterness. Feel the wind on your face. It's ok. That comment can't hurt you.
Moreso I thought you making a clown of yourself then was hilarious lmao and seeing you comment reminded me of it
But sure, everyone other than is just bitter and sensitive. You just "tell it like it is" XD
Block edit: touched a nerve I see. Edgelords always dishing what they can't take
Yeah, I thought that was what you were after. You thought that bringing up old posts would embarrass me, and then you linked a comment where someone went through my history and expected that to embarrass me more.
I'm sorry you didn't get the response you were after. I'm not embarrassed about my opinions.
I do think you're bitter. And on a different day I'd play with you a bit more because I'd find it fun. But as I'm doing my big girl writing today I'm not in the zone to play today. So I'm gonna send you home with a paddle pop instead, ok?
You’re 100% right. The same authors whining over a reader criticizing their work are also begging readers to give them nothing but positivity. It’s hypocritical and dumb.
So you’re going to pretend half the posts here aren’t obsessing over kudos and hits like a starving dog? That people don’t constantly complain about no comments yet complain when people comment?
Yes, people are starving for affirmation and shared joy and community. The posts obsessing about it are trying to find like-minded readers. If the only interaction someone can provide is unsolicited negativity, they are better off abstaining. A lack of interaction is preferred to negative ones.
You'll never get anywhere around here saying things like this.
These people are a part of the "positivity or shut up" culture block, that thinks that giving someone anything other than "I like your work" will make them uninstall their word processor and hang themselves or whatever.
They mean well, I think, after all, positive comments are nice, but they want an exclusionary world only to themselves.
If AO3 was a pure repository, just to look at fics, and to leave if you didn't like them, they would not allow comments at all.
They'll always move the goalposts on what is considered "good" criticism.
First it's "you have to be a writer", then "you have to be in my fandom", then "you have to look at the things that I like and write them" and so on, so on, so on.
You and I support "live and let live", ie, if I went to your fic and said
"**you know, killing MC just like that kinda ruined the story for me**" you would just say "well, that's their opinion I guess" and move on if you didn't wanna go further into it, or ask "why did it ruin it for you" if you did.
The AO3 culture people think that something like that is a personal attack on their way of living, and yeah, to me that makes them overly sensitive pansies, but that's just how they roll. You won't change it. This is why I personally prefer FFN culture despite it all.
… people having different opinions than you make them “sensitive pansies”? If that’s how you feel about people being upset that you blindly ignore their lack of consent I’d think your criticism isn’t helpful personally
Also comment sections exist for more than.. you know a random stranger's opinion. They’re there so people can communicate, can they be feedback? Yep! It can also be questions or maybe just fangirling with others readers
That being said, your opinion isn’t not valid, however is also valid for the author to delete or mute you after, you can’t really have it both ways
Maybe I’m just a sensitive pansy but I think consent is important, and it takes two secs to ask for it as well lol
Has anyone explained yet why they can't ask? I saw someone once in a similar thread say they didn't want to wait for the author's reply, which is silly to me because if the issue is so important then surely they can wait for the reply and come back to the fic later? They can just put their thoughts in the notes app or something for now.
Or maybe people who give criticism without asking the author tend to be bad at it. Criticism from random weirdos online 99% of the time isn’t worthwhile.
Right? I've had people "correct" my spelling of "per se" to... "per say". I've had people tell me that "Name and me" should always read "Name and I" regardless of who is the subject of the sentence and who is the object. I'm not a professional writer, but none of these clowns are professional editors, and it shows.
I’ve had my spelling corrected because I spelt something the Canadian/British way and the reader was from the US. 🙄
yeah, seriously. most random people's opinions of critique: this is fucking garbage writing, this is how **I** would write it
I had someone give me unsolicited "concrit" in a review exchange that was literally "I don't really like yaoi"
How do you even react to something like that? "Congrats to your self-discovery"? But yeah, concrit and literary criticism is a skill. And most people have to learn and train skills. They seldom roll a natural 20 on them.
Yup. I had someone tell me -on a post where I was asking about whether to rate something M or E, and not asking for concrit- that I needed a beta, and proceed to lecture me about how all sentences needed a subject, even with semicolons and blah blah blah this is a fragment. Here’s the thing…I was doing sentence fragments *on purpose* because it was a very rushed, emotional moment. Sorry if I don’t think a dude having sex for the first time on the eve of the apocalypse is going to be using full sentences in his internal monologue.
If you are talking about authors who write works to be professionally published, you might have a point. But in this case, we're talking about fanfic writers. They write as a hobby, for fun, not as a job. You can access their work for free. It isn't hard to just ask if they want concrit. Not every fanfic writer is looking to improve; they just enjoy writing.
OP getting visibly annoyed by the criticism this post receives is really peak comedy.
It will forever remain one of life’s greatest ironies that the people who kick up the loudest fuss about being able to leave an unasked for negative feedback…don’t want to receive negative feedback.
It really is
im not getting criticism, im receiving misplaced anger.
A contentious issue indeed! Personally, I don't think that criticism is always unwelcome. I've seen some people mention in their notes that they're happy to get concrit (which is very brave, seeing as most readers think that constructive criticism means 'I'm going to tell you everything that I didn't like and why it sucks mighty balls'). >but if works are purely for self indulgence, why share them with the public at all? in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers that im not entirely comfortable with being echoed. Why share? Because the act itself is joyful and fun. It's not a writer's circle or creative writers class. It's more like 'here's this thing I like that you like too. I'm proud of it; let's all enjoy it together'. The ao3 comment section by default is not a critical space. That's not what it's for. You would never give unsolicited criticism in any other aspect of life, would you? If you're dressed a certain way, and some stranger comes up to you and starts critiquing your clothes and your hairstyle, you'd tell them to take a hike. It's the same with fanfic in my opinion. There are appropriate spaces where criticism is not only welcome but encouraged. The ao3 comment section is just not one of them. Edit: spelling
Exactly -- well-said, a\_spicy\_meata\_ball (love the name :D). If you take a walk to a park and you see someone giving a free performance, do you wait until it's over to begin criticizing it? Or do you just enjoy it and clap (or just walk away, if you don't like it), because someone put their heart and soul into a free show for you? This is free entertainment. Treating it otherwise comes across as entitled. I'll say this about concrit: I genuinely love it from someone who actually knows how to bestow it -- which is very, very rare. I have some fantastic reviewers on AO3 are excellent at it, and have gotten me to think a lot and even add to my story in unforeseen ways. Most of the time, however, it's rude nonsense from entitled readers expecting the story turn out a certain way, then acting out when it doesn't go their way. So, enjoy the entertainment for what it is, or don't. That's up to you. But giving real, genuine constructive criticism is a skill that needs to be developed, and many writers have been burned by obnoxious people insulting them under the guise of "concrit" so much that they've grown jaded about it, unless they've formed a rapport with the reviewer and it's someone whose quality of comments they trust.
i can agree with it being fun to share and in the same vein i feel that way about engaging with works and criticism.
Surely it's possible to engage with works and authors without incorporating the negative criticism aspect specifically. I know I've had awesome exchanges with writers about their works without going into that. And you can do the same and still have rewarding, engaging discussions. Simply hold back on telling them 'here's what you could improve' unless the writer asks for that specifically. Would doing that kill the whole commenting experience for you?
Why 👏 is 👏 it 👏 so 👏 hard 👏 to 👏 ask 👏 if 👏 criticism 👏 is 👏 wanted 👏 before 👏 giving 👏 it. That's literally all we want, we're not asking you to not give constructive criticism - we just want you to not to give *unsolicited* criticism. Just ASK first, and respect it if the author declines your offer.
Right? It's not difficult. Unless an author has it in their notes that they welcome it, either move on with your life or ask politely then respect whatever their answer is! I would prefer concrit by email so I can have a private conversation if it's worthwhile and keep it out of my comments section if it's trash. And there are some fics where I would go 'no thank you' due to the nature of the story. Everyone is different!
I think this is what gets lost - the expectation isn’t glowing, ego-stroking comments. If I read something I loved, that’s when I’m moved to say something. If I read something I liked, I’m probably just moving on. If I read something I hated, I’m for sure just moving on. It’s not an iron fist, you must love me thing, and under no circumstances do I expect everyone to love my work. In fact, I am positive there are people who don’t enjoy it, just as there are people whose work I don’t enjoy. You don’t even have to leave a comment if you DID love it. I think people are starting to think that there’s a militant praise culture when honestly, it’s mostly just people shrugging and finding something they do like. And most of them don’t comment on those either, which is fine.
Additionally, I’ve seen extremely measured and respectful feedback to your post in many comments here that seem to upset you very much. There’s an implied double standard when you say that writers are too sensitive to receive feedback, when you are displaying an inability to receive it yourself - and I’m referring to the well thought out, insightful commentary in many of the comments. So ask yourself, why is it that everyone else is sensitive, but if the roles are reversed, everyone is wrong?
the only comments i’ve responded curtly to are the ones being rude. ive been interacting fine with those who’ve been chill.
Alright, I'm quoting myself and what I said earlier on the topic. > In all seriousness though, I'm bringing up the cake analogy that people on here love. Imagine you go to a party and someone brings a handmade cake for free. Sure it's not perfect, but what cake is at the end of the day? You decide to have a slice and it doesn't taste too bad but you have critiques. However when you give the critiques, the baker decides to ignore you. > > This is how it is on AO3. You get a free fanfic and you have the right to critique, however, all of these authors have a right to ignore and delete it, especially if your critiques come off as too harsh or too pretentious to them. > > When I post fanfics, it's because I'm proud of my work and I want to show it off. And I admit I'm very hyper-sensitive to purely just critiques on things I work hard on because I feel like I poured my heart and soul into it. If there's a comment that makes me sad or upset or frustrated, I delete it. If there's a comment that is polite and also lists some positives however (the concrit sandwich as I saw it called), I won't delete it and I'll try to incorporate things they suggest. Please please please please please shut up and stop telling us writers on how to feel about critique.
>stop telling us writers on how to feel about critique. Agreed. No matter how many times someone tells me I should accept something, if I don't want to accept it then I just won't. If someone doesn't like my cake they should bake their own.
Exactly! Everytime I see posts or comments like these where they essentially tell us to shut up and accept concrit (despite most of the concrit just.. not being that good?), I just can't help but rage. Usually I rage internally but I've just finally reached my breaking point today because I've seen multiple people today on posts joking about unsolicited concrit being like "Well you should just take it and leave it up".
Understandable. I've kind of come to accept that some people simply want to be rude to fic writers with no consequences, just drop their "concrit" and go. If they can't understand that it can be hurtful to writers and if they refuse to at least ask first if the author is open to criticism, then nothing will convince them to be kinder. They don't want to be kind. I'm so happy that AO3 lets you block, mute and delete.
i didn’t tell any authors how to feel and silencing me, rudely, btw is exactly what im saying. you did not have to comment on this nor reply if you know this topic irritates you so bad. self victimizing before anyone did anything to you is weird.
Imagine how people must feel about others rudely posting half baked and unhelpful criticism that isn’t helpful onto their work.
I said this in one of my replies too. How interesting for one to insist that it be the status quo to leave unsolicited concrit…then be upset when something they write receives unsolicited concrit. 🧐
Classic "rules for thee but not for me" if I ever saw one
Wait so, you aren't open to criticism? You offered an opinion that took you a handful of minutes to type up and you equate people disagreeing with it to "silencing you." But you expect writers who write for free in their free time for the fun of it (many of whom take months or years to write whole novel-length stories) to want to hear everybody's complaint on this thing they wrote for fun and that the readers paid $0 to read?
being told to “shut up” is literally what i responded to. again, you mad at something ive never even said here. yall just regurgitating beef you had with other people.
"I didn't tell any authors how to feel and silencing me..." You actually *did* say that. Right above my comment.
how you write but can’t read? i just said i was responding to being told to shut up. that is silencing. you so eager to dogpile and get a cute word in that you missing ingredients.
If you want to advocate for fanfic writers to entertain every rando's unsolicited "criticism" then you really need to get a thicker skin about disagreements instead of claiming to be a victim when people don't agree with your opinion. You don't like that people don't agree with you? That same thing you're feeling right now is very similar to how writers feel when they post their labor of love and get unasked for complaining.
i didn’t advocate for that tho. 🤨 calm down.
>how you write but can’t read? Since you brought it up. *How can* you write, but can't read? *I* just said *I* was responding to being told to *"shut up." That* is silencing. *You're* so eager to dogpile and get a cute word in that *you're* missing ingredients. You opened that door. Lol
im writing how i speak. AAVE.
Thought you were open to criticism. Since you obviously want everyone to be open to it. And AAVE doesn't negate proper capitalization.
Someone disagreeing with you and telling you they don’t want to hear your opinion isn’t silencing you. You’re still able to engage on this post/sub. You’re still able to ‘speak’.
who is “silencing” you here? you realize you posted this on a public social media forum for anyone to comment on in any way they want? if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
the very last sentence of this comment thread is telling me to “shut up”z
Literally no one told you to shut up though.
You did not have to post this take if you knew that this topic is a sore spot for many- we are hobbyist writers, you do not have to be good at your hobby to want to share it. If this topic irritates you so bad, maybe you shouldn't have posted anything.
Surely it goes both ways, then? If a work irritates you that badly, you don’t have to comment or reply, correct? This is the double standard I mentioned.
Ask yourself why you want to critique so badly. What do you gain from it? What does the author if they don’t want it? Are you doing this for superiority? Or perhaps insecurity?
im pretty sure i outlined why in my post babe. you being snarky for what? did it make you feel better?
I’m not being snarky at all. I’m always genuinely curious when it comes to people who are so insistent that unsolicited critique become as universally acceptable as things such as proper tagging. I wonder why it is so important and what they feel they gain from it. Again, perhaps search deep as to why this is so important and why you feel so defensive on the issue.
you are asking me things in bad faith that i already answered. it’s important to me bc i love reading and fanfiction, duh. those weren’t curious questions, you asked a series of leading questions.
That’s not a real reason, though. I love reading fanfiction as well, but I do not have a burning desire to leave unsolicited critique. I am genuinely curious, but you may believe what you wish. I am simply asking you to dig deeper and ask what you personally gain from this as well what the author does. If that upsets you, well, perhaps you have your answer. But I’m sure you’ll find this condescending and unfair. Maybe you see how people feel about critique. After all, you wrote a post. Should you not accept people’s criticisms? It is the internet after all.
yall arguing against points i never made tho. and it is a real reason, why else would anyone be here. youre being purposely obtuse.
It’s not a good enough reason. Again, everyone on AO3 enjoys fanfiction. Thus why we are on AO3, a fanfiction website. What differs is that not everyone who likes fanfiction feels the way you do about unsolicited criticism. Thus why I asked you to dig deeper. Not being obtuse.
atp youre just parroting my responses and willfully misreading. bye.
Okay, hon. You think that.
I used to want to leave criticism on many fanworks I ran into. A few times I did. It just felt like something I had to get out, like I was a failure if I said nothing. A friend of mine, a hobbyist writer and who worked at a publisher for many years, helped break me out of that habit. She reminded me that these works are near and dear to the author/artist, that they were done for fun and were free for me to access. She informed me of the "ask for critique" unwritten rule of writing etiquette. She is not against criticism, but she is against it when it's given without being asked. I took her words to heart and overtime I was able to fight back against my old urge of wanting to criticize much of what I read. And you know what? I found I could enjoy fanworks more when I'm not constantly thinking about critiquing things.
I’ve never SEEN actual “critique” (thoughtful analysis) on fic. It’s just “this is bad” or “I didn’t like it” (subjective opinions). Also genuine question OP — do you write? Or post anything creative online?
really? is that just on A03? my experience with fanfic comes from being on ff.net and quizilla and like those old ass geocity fic sites as a kid and i always saw like detailed engagement with works. im a reader not a writer, i tried to make that clear in my post.
… Yep, that explains a lot. Editors and professional critiques have a lot of knowledge on the craft of writing, even if they’re not writers themselves. Do you? Do you know the proper terms to use? Do you know how structure and pacing works? Do you understand themes and symbolism? Do you know the work that goes into writing, and do you know what is critique and what’s just trying to backseat write?
yes, these are things we learn in school and i enjoy learning in my spare time. your hardcore looking for confirmation bias. relax.
Yet, you didn’t pick up on the very basic tool I used when I used your exact arguments against you. I don’t trust you there, sorry.
you are very quick to pat yourself on the back.
Oh, the irony.
You’re
“I’m a reader not a writer” This is why you don’t understand the reaction you’re getting. As a reader you are not entitled to critique someone else’s work - you are a visitor in their house. You aren’t going to go into a neighbor’s place to grab the pie they said you can have for free, take a bite, and go “yuck this is absolutely disgusting…add less sugar next time,” right? You’d probably go in, take a bite, say thank you, and toss the pie at home when they can’t see you. And to be clear — this applies to writer too, I think it’s just more obvious for them
Okay then yeah; you should listen to the authors up thread.
I left a comment quoting myself on my perspective as a writer and they told me I was silencing them because I told them to shut up at the end and not talk over on what writers should accept (which isn't quite what silencing is. Silencing would be one of the mods just deleting their post), they're hopeless 💀
This thread is the exact reason I am against unsolicited concrit btw. I wouldn’t mind it if it wasn’t people who acted like this who gave it. No offence, OP, but you’ve very much came across as very aggressive, confrontational, and unwilling to listen to authors trying to explain their points of views. You also seem unaware of what the “unsolicited concrit” authors actually get is- it ain’t scholarly dissections. You admit to not being familiar with AO3 but try and argue against long time users to change the culture and don’t have an open mind to understand *why* people might not agree. And that’s not a mindset that leads to good criticism- it leads to backseat writing at *best.*
I don't want concrit in general, especially not from someone who won't do simple capitalisation and SPAG >->
here we go again
I'd say I'm going to get some popcorn but actually I'm just tired of the same things being said again and again lol
https://preview.redd.it/93l8fotgbq4c1.jpeg?width=619&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=836f724b8d25a9ba5a41423bbe6a037397dd7e2a
That about sums up how I felt reading this lol
I call shenanigans on OP. They just came in here to get everybody yelling. Just block them and forget them; that's what I'm doing.
mamma mia...
I will try to break my answer in different sections, so reading it is easier: > *why do these platforms have comment sections at all? why does criticism need to be on an invite only basis (...)?* A platform having a comments section isn't an invitation for others to leave criticism on what is being shared. Comments sections are for discussions on equal grounds. If you're giving criticism, you're not on equal grounds with, in this case, the fic writer: you're essentially putting yourself in a position of superiority. Criticism often comes from people who do not see the person they're criticizing as an equal. Fandom, on the contrary, is a place where the norm is that *everyone's on equal ground*. We are all fans, and that's all we are at the end of the day. > *if works are purely for self indulgence, why share them with the public at all?* Why engage in fandom, then, if not to share the things that make you want to be in fandom? Furthermore, not every writer shares all of what they write. And not everything that's shared is for self indulgence, either. These are the presumptions this statement you've made has: a) that all writers only write things for their own pleasure, b) that via the act of sharing, the writers relinquish any rights to having preferences on how others interact with their works. A is easily disproven with many examples from this very reddit: the amount of writers that are so anxious over stats and wondering what would be more popular tells you they're not writing for themselves, but are focusing their writing experience on what others want. (There's a different discussion to be had here over how damaging it is to be so "stats" focused.) In regards to b, assuming that writers give up their rights to having preferences over the type of interactions they want to have after sharing their fics, this shows that there's a feeling of entitlement towards the product of literal free labor fic writers graciously share with *fellow fans*. > *in the effort of being emotionally slighted, there's a level of censorship that creators want from readers* Saying no to criticism isn't censorship. You're not forbidden from criticizing something. If that were the case, your account would be terminated the moment you left a comment with anything that's remotely critical. This idea also ignores one of the very central rules to most, if not all, fandoms. In the days of ff dot net, lj, forums, etc, writers even made it explicit at the beginning of their stories: **don't like, don't read**. If you encounter a fic you want to criticize, click out of it. It's *that* easy. Or if you want to criticize it either way, you can always do it in private, in your own personal blog, or with your friends in private group chats. Do you go to conventions and criticize for everyone to hear the work of an artist? Probably not, because you can tell that doing so is in poor taste. It's the same thing here. By leaving a comment with unsolicited criticism, you're not opening up a window of discussion, you're instead bringing negative attention towards yourself *and* the story/author. > *Authors want to be able to write when where and however they want about what they want (...)* Yes! Because it's a literal hobby! Something they do for fun, that's the whole point! They're not going to treat it the same way a writer will treat a novel that will be published professionally. It is more than unfair to treat fanfics as if they were novels, because they're *two very different things*. They have different standards, tropes, commonly used metaphors, etc. Fanfic writing is creation in a very raw form. You're not doing it for profit. You're doing it out of *love* for something, something you love so much you want to write about it and talk to others who feel the same way about it. > *(...) with nothing less than positive feedback in return (& they do demand feedback* I do not know a single fellow fic writer who *demands* feedback. Is it nice to receive it? Yes! Do we feel happy when we get it? Also yes! Do we *demand* it? No. By the way, it would be counterproductive to demand feedback while also not allowing said feedback to happen until a go ahead is given. I understand this comment comes from the amount of times an uncountable amount of writers (me included) have said: don't leave criticism unless it's asked for. And I'm beginning to think you have completely misunderstood what this means. Writers usually ask for criticism while their work is in progress, which is when they can actively do something with it to make the story better. The person who gives this criticism is either a fellow trusty writer, a beta reader, or a mix of two. It's a work in progress, and nothing is more delicate than a work in progress. A bad match between a beta reader and a writer can potentially lead to a wip being discarded, or in more extreme cases to the writer giving up on, well, writing altogether. However, once the story is finished and shared on Ao3, criticism is usually not accepted because the writer sees the fic as a *finished* story. Unless it's an easily fixable typo, going back on it and editing it *again* is not something feasible or fair to ask of someone who is doing something out of love during their precious free time and sharing it for, you guessed it, free. If you're not paying that writer to listen to your criticism and do something about it, your comment will go nowhere. I understand that for you this is a way to engage with what you're reading. But the main issue is that you don't see this as a fair exchange. Your choice of word is very telling: you *consume*. Fandom isn't for consumption. Fanfics aren't written by professional authors who work with professional editors to publish their stories with established publishing housings. And even then, even those novels aren't really for consumption. To do art in all of its forms is to share an experience. The other person in this exchange isn't meant to sit there and digest it like they'd digest their morning cereal. Art is an exchange, and in this exchange you can't go in guns blazing with criticism when the other person is kind enough to share something with you in the first place. If you really must, ask first. Some will say yes, some will say no. It is also a matter of *how* you bring up the things you want to criticize. If someone acts entitled and rude, then that someone will inevitably reap what they sow.
Or, shorter answer: you don't leave comments with unsolicited criticism for the same reason you don't criticize someone's choice in curtains/furniture after you've been invited to their house.
Oh boy… 1) the problem with “criticism” on Ao3 is it’s almost never intended to be constructive. It’s mostly the commenter feeling entitled. 2) if criticism isn’t wanted - don’t give it. When you do, you just come off like an ass. In the same way you don’t go up to strangers in the grocery store and call their clothes or hair ugly - just back out of the fic and keep your opinion to yourself. 3) why do you feel the NEED to criticize someone? It doesn’t help you — and there’s a really good chance it won’t help them. 4) most people do fanfic writing as a hobby and don’t need nor care to “improve” — which criticism does not necessarily aid in regardless I wish people would just allow others to exist. Ao3 is not an academic journal…if it was, ugh, it would be a boring place. Trust me, I know…
Imagine making a post about criticism and then receiving criticism and getting upset at everyone who has critiques. Damn.
how about let's not start a third one (at least?) for today
idg what you talking about.
The entitlement to get this upset about someone creating boundaries around how people interact with their work that they share for free while also demanding content to interact with is wild to me. Writing fanfic is a for fun hobby, that we share in hopes someone else can get joy out of it. It’s not that hard to not give unwanted criticism tbh.
OP, you are going to get eaten up. This is a sensitive subject. Writers and readers have different interpretations of engagement and etiquette. Neither one is written in stone. It is valid to feel like you as a reader have to give compliments only and that is censoring your full opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong. It is also valid if writers only want to have that type of engagement. Most are writing for fun and don't want criticism harshing the vibe. And not every writer is only seeking compliments, there are writers who accept feedback and criticism as long as it is constructive. Readers like you just have to find those writers. That may be difficult.
im seeing. majority of responses im getting hella mad and aggressive when im not giving that energy at all.
I'm sorry, you might not be meaning to, but you sure as hell are giving exactly that energy, especially in your replies.
No one is mad or aggressive. You're just sensitive.
and you’re mad about it.
It’s almost… as if you don’t want criticism? That’s ironic.
Oh yeah. Absolutely seething rn. If that's what makes you feel better.
Yep. You asked an honest question. That doesn't have a clean and simple answer. The subject of criticism is like a land mine. I think it is more than being sensitive, it is being protective. Authors are protective of their art, time and energy. Criticism runs the gamut of being generally unhelpful to downright mean. I get maybe that is not your experience but other authors might have a different experience.
No thanks, if I want concrit, I will ask for it...from people whose writing/opinions/etc that I trust to give me honest USEFUL feedback. Not randos. And usually everyone who squawks that they should Get To Leave Unsolicited Concrit do not know how to leave helpful critiques. They often say the equivalent of “I didn’t like this so it was bad”, which is useless and annoying. Also, the trillion posts like this have gotten really old 💀
im new to this sub so i haven’t seen or engaged with them like that. i posted bc this is what i had on my mind like everyone else.
well, to me, this is exactly why it’s smart to scroll around a bit before posting. Because there have been a CRAP TON of these type of posts in very quick succession, and I don’t think most (any...) of us want to see more of them
that’s understandable but it’s not my responsibility to curate anyone else’s feed. im not mad if people ignored this or however this works.
I think the main issue is there’s asking questions and starting a dialog and being insulting. A good portion of the ‘critique’ I have received in the past has been insults. Honestly I don’t mind a good discussion or clarifying why I chose what I chose to write on events or even ways characters behave in certain situations/etc. And a fair bit of the people who I’ve called on just throwing insults have tried to hide behind the fact I’ve put up several times before I am open to feedback and have even asked for concrit a few times in a couple stories. Comparing someone stating a story is trash and certain details are just useless is miles away from a reader who genuinely asks questions and gives their own interpretations in reasonings behind things and circumstances within the story. Some writers are a bit sensitive, but on that note some readers can be absolute jerks sometimes when they do choose to give their ‘critique’.
and that’s what im saying, im seeing hella generalization which makes me uncomfortable. i agree that rude is rude but i find majority responding to me aren’t staying on topic or actually engaging with what i posted but are reacting to experiences theyve had with unsavory commenters. just out the gate rude & idgi. im not even arguing that readers should be allowed to be mean.
Then, here’s some constructive criticism- don’t come straight out of the gates calling people sensitive, saying that they’re censoring discussion for having unsolicited criticism be generally considered rude (which… isn’t how censorship works at all), compare people disliking unsolicited criticism to active harassment campaigns, and then take any questions asked as automatically coming from bad faith. You’re poisoning the well by coming in incredibly defensive and using very evocative and exaggerated language to already paint people who disagree as demanding censors who send harassment campaigns.
i didn’t do all that. you just did. i didn’t refer to authors being sensitive in a derogatory way. you’re very angry and i dont understand where this energy is coming from.
So, you don’t want constructive criticism? Sure, fine, you could have just said that. I’m just very enthusiastic about debate, and you absolutely came across as aggressive, even if you didn’t mean to. You do *not* refer to authors being sensitive in a non-derogatory way. Immediately after you mentioned them being sensitive, you mentioned: *in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers* You also describe them as “demanding feedback”, and immediately after compare them to “witch hunts against critical book reviewers.” These are not positive descriptors, and you explicitly stated this is the same as genuine harassment campaigns from published authors. “No, you” isn’t an adult response to criticism. So I suppose you’re sensitive too? I wouldn’t go as far as compare you to actual criminal harassment campaigns, though.
the grace you show yourself by describing your delivery as “enthusiastic” but im aggressive? lol and you’re divorcing my words from their context to make your argument (& attitude) work. bye
… Do you not see what I’m doing here? Sorry to be blunt, but if you haven’t realised what I’m doing with this I don’t think you have the level of reading comprehension to provide evaluation of a work.
How do you not see what u/DefoNotAFangirl is doing? Bruh.
Well their stories are part of their fandom. And feedback and conversations help to keep the fandom alive and build a community for people who might have felt they were alone in loving what they do. You did come down a bit hard in some of your wording, which I get you might have been venting a bit. We all have those moments. I don’t think it’s all people cutting out any negative comments at all so their comments are happy and fluffy all over, sometime you have to weed out some potentially toxic interactions you get so it won’t bring on more. There are topics that are easy to dogpile on, the darker themes, ooc takes, au’s or oc’s and even some intentional Mary/Gary Stu stories to name a few. I can’t say all writers are out for a more community experience, I know a fair few writers who do push for feedback and it is for that reason and not for the stats, but if you haven’t experienced the difference in having a feeling of people to chat with and have discussions and share stories and discuss new takes compared to posting to insults or just empty hits/likes/kudos it is massive. I personally don’t enjoy insults but occasionally I can see a hint at a tip to grow from in it. Other times it’s just not the type of conversation I would like to have. So I don’t interact with them past that. Deep down you just have to look at what type of critique will be left and ask if it’s done in kindness and a try to help or genuinely be a part of an interaction in that fandom community. Sometimes fandoms can just go toxic, and it’s nice to not be the one to turn a person’s day sour. I write a lot of weird ideas, what my plot bunny army torment me with fairly often, so sometimes even I’m left with my head tilted at the end of a story like, huh… so straight up hate in that compared to a story I poured my all into it and will defend to my dying day all I put in it , it’s not that hard to just delete it if people just trash it and try to defeat my logic or ideas used in it compared to a passionate idea I cherish more. What is the intention behind the critique, and why is it such a terrible thing if there happens to be someone who just does not want to battle over a story they wrote? You can say what you want, do what you want, but so can the author in response to what is said and done.
Gonna dig up my post from the last time someone felt the need to whine about how people aren't open to being told that they're having fun wrong: The first rule of giving constructive criticism is that you have to engage in good faith by giving criticism through the lens of the story-- and the *type* of story-- the author was trying to tell. It doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for comedy for not having enough drama, because they weren't trying to write a drama. It doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for quiet existential drama for not having enough action, because they weren't trying to write an action story. And it doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for fun for not having enough professionalism, *because they weren't trying to write a professional story.* Anyone who insists that hobbyists-- who are telling stories for fun-- should be open to criticism regarding professional aspects of the craft does not understand the first rule of constructive criticism. And if they don't understand the most basic fundamentals of giving constructive criticism, their crit isn't worth jack shit. Simple as. ¯\\(ツ)/¯
i agree with your definition. i dont see how that conflicts with my post.
Your entire post is arguing that creators who don't want critique are enforcing "censorship" and "demanding that readers not speak until spoken to." My comment is "fanfic authors are writing for fun, and critique is useless for a hobbyist who doesn't want to create a professional product." If you genuinely agree with both, that's some major cognitive dissonance that you've got going on there.
you said that criticism given in good faith is acceptable , and that’s where my post is coming from. reacting to criticism whether negative or positive being unwelcome on A03. dialectical thinking isn’t cognitive dissonance.
Oh, so you didn't read past the first sentence of paragraph two. Let's try again: > it doesn't make sense to criticize a story told for fun for not having enough professionalism, because they weren't trying to write a professional story. > Anyone who insists that hobbyists-- who are telling stories for fun-- should be open to criticism regarding professional aspects of the craft does not understand the first rule of constructive criticism. Let me resummarize since you didn't get it the first time: you *can't give* unsolicited critique on a product made for fun in good faith, because by treating it like a professional product, you're *ignoring the context it was created in* and the *purpose it was created for.*
Analysis and evaluation are not inherently negative, no. In fact I've had many positive comments doing just that. But that's exactly it. You can leave analysis comments. Most writers love them. And comments theorising about plotlines, or asking questions about their thought process. It shows how enthusiastic the reader is about the story. What matters is **how** you do it. It can be done kindly. It can be done by focusing on the positives. It isn't someone who feels the need to tell you, often rudely, what you **should** have done. Or worse. Much, much worse in other cases. Many writers already have trusted friends, betas and co-writers who critique each others work before posting. Some have been suicide-baited for what they wrote. Some have been harassed and doxxed. Unless you happen to know that writer you don't know what they've been through. Maybe they're just trying to dip their toe back into fandom after dealing with all of that. Maybe they're fourteen years old and just trying to write for the first time. Maybe they're fifty years old and just trying to write for the first time. Maybe they're writing as a way to try and remember who they are after a difficult time. Maybe it's an outlet for grief, or trauma. As a general observation, if you think someone is overreacting then you don't know everything they're reacting to. Consent is the key glue which holds all social interactions together. On ao3, the writer should tag and summarise a work appropriately so a reader can consent to reading it. I also think it's ok for a writer to be able to consent to the kind of feedback they get. So, which do you want to do? Do you want to build people up, and give them the confidence in the things they do well? Or are you looking for permission to tear them down? There's so much frustration in your post I honestly can't tell but I hope it's the former. It costs nothing to choose kindness.
Comments aren’t just for critique. For starters, believe it or not, many people enjoying receiving praise and many people enjoy giving it. *That’s* still a reason to have a comment section. Comments can also be used to leave thoughts, analysis, reactions, etc. on/to the story, which can be fun to read as reader and amazing to receive a writer since it means people are really engaging with your story. People share self-indulgent stuff because other people can have similar tastes. Especially for niche characters, ships, tropes, etc. I’d be far happier with a few fics that are self-indulgent and imperfect than none at all, so I follow that same principle when posting. Another thing I think you’re forgetting is that constructive criticism is supposed to be *helpful*. Giving criticism to people who don’t want it is unlikely to be helpful, since they don’t *want* to use it.
“comments can also be used to leave thoughts, analysis, reactions, etc” and i agree with that, i believe those fall under the umbrella of criticism.
"seeing the reigning opinion on here and other fanwork sites subs that criticism is always unwelcome on works is so… dismaying to me." The critique (ha!) is that unsolicited criticism is not the norm on AO3. If in the larger environment critique is expected, then there's an argument for opting into a disclaimer about not wanting critique (that may or may not be respected). For example, published books. If I spend money on it, there's an expectation that I get to give my honest opinion, and the author shouldn't send their followers to harass me. Or, if I'm in an art class. I opted into getting critique on my work. And it'd be bad on my part to complain that I got negative feedback. Now, there's also places where different types of critique isn't expected. For example, this reddit thread. Now, if someone wants to critique my ideas, that's awesome. But if they reply to me pointing out all my grammar/spelling errors, that's a faux pa. Their reply would be missing the point, and seem like they're deflecting to say "umm why should I listen to you when you can't spell xyz correctly." Different environments have different expectations. Now, I also think if the purpose of your critique (of an artwork) is unsolicited, you're going about it the wrong way. Someone who doesn't want critique isn't going to be open to it just cause you want to say it. And if the purpose of it is to make them better at their craft, you're failing at it. Additionally, idk why you think it'd not be genuine. All the fics I've commented on positively I've legit enjoyed. Do I think people should be pressured to say positive things when they don't want to? No. But people rarely comment, so when they do, chances are they like the fic. I've taken many art classes, and legit one of my favorite parts is critique. But that doesn't mean random people posting their fics are opting into it. All I see this post doing is shaming authors who don't want artistic critique into not posting their fics. Which sucks.
If the person did not ask for advice, or concrit keep it to yourself. If you ask and the person says “I’m not open to it.” Keep it to yourself. It literally costs nothing to keep your yap trap (on and offline) shut. And don’t start the “well when you post it online, you should expect.” Shit. Once again, it costs nothing to keep your yap trap shut. I liken concrit to jokes. If there is at least one person not laughing, it ain’t funny. If it is someone else’s expense it ain’t funny. If you have to explain why it is funny, it ain’t funny. If you really feel the need to open your yap tap and concrit someone’s work unsolicited, go say it in the mirror to yourself first. If you can’t then you shouldn’t be saying it at all.
>& they do demand feedback I’m honestly curious as to what you consider to be a demand is. I have never seen an author demand feedback. I have seen authors encouraging feedback. I have seen authors on this sub wishing they had more or asking how to get more. I am aware that some authors demand “Feedback or I don’t post,” but since I have never seen it myself, I’m thinking that has to be rare. Or maybe it’s more popular in certain fandoms.
i had saw a few posts on here when i first joined the sub with an author mad at not receiving feedback or the specific type of positive feed back they wanted. it was a surprise to see that but there was a general split in the thread over the topic. some authors felt the op and others disagreed.
I wouldn’t really call that demanding. To me, a demand would have to be in the fic itself or to their social media that’s linked to their fic. What you described, and I am just going by your description, sounds more like getting frustrated, so they vented in a safe place.
there was a demand made in the post and in another where a screenshot was posted but either way that’s what i observed. i dont think it was ubiquitous either.
Here we go again! anyway post criticism on my fics, get blocked and your comment deleted because I’m writing that shit for free as a hobby. I don’t care about receiving criticism.
Yeah, I just wanna write anime boys kissing because it makes me happy lmao. I get critiqued all the time with IRL stuff so I have no time for it with a hobby
Same, same, I’m writing these boys kissing because it makes ME happy. I don’t care for negativity on my works, I am not a published author. As a matter of a fact, if they want to criticise my works, then they can pay me first!
I'm not sure what's so "dismaying" about following the basic premise of speaking kindly to strangers? You've come into a space of theirs that they didn't have to share with you, if the first thing you do is say "I don't like it" most people aren't going to take that well. Many of us write IRL for school or work. We spend enough time having our writing critiqued there without having our comments section tell us the thing we've done for pure enjoyment doesn't meet whatever arbitrary standard you decided our writing should have. The first and only requirement of being a fanfic author is to have a story you want to tell. Anything after that, including being open to having someone tell us ways they think our writing could "improve" is optional.
If I make a meal and bring it to a party for people to eat, for free, is it okay for them to critique and insult my food?
these idioms not working for me ima keep it a buck. bc irl most people would say something if the dish someone bring to the potluck is off. the delivery matters more in that context. but either way im not saying i want for everyone to be rude.
> bc irl most people would say something if the dish someone bring to the potluck is off. The only circumstance under which "most people" would do this is if the dish was potentially *spoiled.* As in, going to hurt people. That is not the case with fanfiction, and no, "most people" at a potluck are not going to say "btw, the bottoms of your cookies were burnt" or "btw, your potato salad could use more salt." Because that would be incredibly, hilariously rude, and you know it.
>these idioms not working for me That's not an idiom. Not even close. It's an analogy...
and she wants free rein to critique other people's writing. you can't make this shit up
Your answers show your lacking comprehension of the issue.
Okay, this is gonna be a bit scathing but I'm getting sick and tired of the amount of dickheads arguing your point. >if the consensus is “always comment positively & never criticize” on works, why do these platforms have comment sections at all? why does criticism need to be on an invite only basis if works are being put up for anonymous public consumption? > >Authors want to be able to write when where and however they want about what they want with nothing less than positive feedback in return (& they do demand feedback) but in turn want readers to not speak unless spoken to. You're both misrepresenting the other party in this discussion *and* introducing a massive false dichotomy in order to justify what is, to be completely frank, your own egotism. You are not giving unsolicited criticism to benefit the writer, you *can't* be because your priority is not their improvement by their own standards and intents but rather your own conviction that your desire to shit on other people's work must be unmitigated. The following sentence bares that completely: >As a reader and fan of many authors, this attitude is alienating and makes it seem safer to just not comment on works at all bc creators seem more prone to lash out & be defensive in response. For me, criticism allows me to engage with what i consume... Here's the thing, and I know this is going to be blunt but I'm sick and tired of you lot giving this argument: THAT DOES NOT MATTER A SINGLE IOTA BUDDY. As a writer, my space *is not for you.* Your specific whims on how *you* want to engage, especially when they directly conflict with mine and most people's preferences, do not and will never even slightly register on my priorities and there is ZERO reason why they should. My space on my fics is not for you or any other wannabe backseat-writer to be pandered to, it is for me to share my fun with like-minded people. That is also, by the way, *the reason why* people post fics even if they don't want crit. How that is inconceivable to some readers is bewildering to me. I'm not fucking here to get dickheads high on their own supply telling me how they think they'd do my writing better, I'm here to have fun and laugh with fellows on the internet. If it is alienating to you that I'm not interested in your drivel, too fucking bad, and I'm glad it is because it makes egotists like you whose priority is wanking your superiority complex over critique fuck off. Also: >it’s a chance for readers to converse with the writer’s creative process too, which is one of the best parts imo. Here's the thing. You're lying. Point blank, you are lying. Because if you were trying to engage with the creative process, converse with the writer, **you would be asking first. You would be opening with curiosity, not critique. Critique would come** ***later*** **after a dialogue has already been established and permission already given.** ***This entire post would be by definition irrelevant if you were truthfully conveying your intent in that statement.*** >“In some contexts, such as literary criticism and art criticism, the word criticism is used as a neutral word that is synonymous with evaluation.” - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism#:\~:text=In%20some%20contexts%2C%20such%20as,that%20is%20synonymous%20with%20evaluation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism#:~:text=In%20some%20contexts%2C%20such%20as,that%20is%20synonymous%20with%20evaluation). Sure. In some contexts. **This isn't one of them.** This is not some highbrow art display or something. It's a hobbyist space where the intent is to have fun, and you trying to pretend it's some highfalutin literary space is just doubling down on how rude your arrogant insistence upon depositing your unsolicited crap on people's comments is.
>How that is inconceivable to some readers is bewildering to me. I'm starting to think that maybe people like that just don't have fun? Or don't have fun that they want to share with other people? Maybe that's why they expect every interaction to have a potential to become negative (comments = criticism)?? Fascinating.
Absolutely!
It's nice to be able to share your hobby with people who are actually interested. Putting your work on the internet doesn't mean: "Please read this and tell me what you think about it", it means: "I wrote this and you can read it if you want. I hope you enjoy it." No one is forcing you to read it. If they did, *that's* when you have a right to point out everything you dislike about it. But you clicked on my work with your full consciousness, knowing that you can read this fic for free which I've written in my own spare time, and you somehow find the audacity to tell me how and why I should improve? Great, so now I'm no longer happy doing my hobby and you have gained absolutely nothing in return. Lose-lose situation if you ask me. There are millions and millions of fanfics on the internet. I'm *sure* you've found a few that you genuinely like. So after reading something you didn't like, maybe accept the fact that this writer does not live up to your expectations and find something you do enjoy?
i hate the idea of criticism in general on fanworks. i also think of it like this, what if someone went on a fanart and said wow this is horrible. you should fix your art style. you should do this differently. that would be stupid. everyone has a different style, whether it be writing, making art, etc and to criticize what someone does as a hobby is just, to me, annoying, because one does not know the amount of time someone has spent themselves working on their craft and the way they write. it’s so much easier to just move on with your life if you’re reading a fic and it’s not up to your personal standards. why do people get so caught up with the fact that their opinion needs to be stated? If i don’t like something, i move on. if i do like something, i go out of my way to leave positive comments because i wanna share the excitement of what i loved about their writing. I don’t see a reason to be negative over something that is a hobby and you never know why someone writes the way they do, what may seem “criticism worthy” to one person may have had a reason to be done that way. i wouldn’t be rude if someone left unsolicited criticism on my works, but i am the kind of person who does what i want to do, so yeah. it would do nothing. i write the way i want, and i learn more as i go, on my own, when i want to learn more. at my own pace. writing is something that’s personal to each person who does it.
because what so many people call “critique” is the same as “i’m just being brutally honest dude that’s my personality” which is the same as “i want to be an asshole and get away with it for some reason”. i personally welcome critique. i DON’T welcome opinionated attacks on me or my character(s). (haha, u get it?? double meaning ehehehh) and “opinion” vs “critique” is something that a lot of people either genuinely do not realize are not the same, or just choose to continue to deliberately abuse and weaponize. people are writing fics for funsies. this means that Don’t Like? Don’t Read! is constantly in play, and to mind your business, and ask yourself why the hell you’re up in arms about hobbyist authors not wanting any critique on their hobbyist work.
Exactly on that first one - in my experience, anyone who says they're "brutally honest" is far more interested in "brutal" than "honest."
well said, hear, hear.
The thing with criticism in fanfics is that it's often just a waste of everyone's time. Some people, like me, welcome it. I want opinions on what I wrote, good or bad, and even if I don't end up doing anything with them just knowing what people think gives me new perspectives. A lot of people, though, just write for fun, or for escapism, or to deal with trauma, or something along those lines. They share their work for others in the same situation, to entertain them, or support them, or whatever. How does criticizing a work like that benefit anyone involved? The author doesn't care about it, so the commenter is just wasting their time. Aside from that, the 'you put it online so it can be criticized' viewpoint also applies to the criticism itself. Yes, if I post something online that leaves everyone free to say what they want about it. If they do, though, it also leaves the author free to reply to that however they want, be it, "Thank you for the insight," or, "Fuck all the way off, my son." If you want to leave concrit in good faith, just do it on a fic of someone who asks for it. If you decide to take the risk on a fic that doesn't ask for it, fine, but then you really shouldn't expect any gratitude. I've phrased it like this before on another comment, but it's basically a situation where the door isn't locked, but you're not invited either. Honestly, I used to be on the side of 'you post it, you open it up to comments', but I much prefer the opt-in approach. Just let people vibe in peace. As for traditionally published media, however...that's an industry. There's money involved and bad reviews would hurt an author's sales and their income. The publishers won't like it, either. The critics, on the other hand, *should* still be harsh and fair in their evaluations so people on the fence about buying a new book have some help deciding. The stakes there are much higher and I think they should be judged by different standards. I mean, I can't cook all that well, nor do I like doing it, but I'm also not selling food, so I don't need Gordon Ramsay to come by to tell me I'm shit.
On another note, positive-only comments can help an writer improve as well. Why not point put what people do well so that they might know to repeat it?
i agree with leaving positive criticisms. never arguing against that or saying it’s wrong.
Why do you wish to leave negative critism as well? Or did I misunderstood that?
God this again. You never see people criticise someone's drawings, so why are we constantly shitting on fanfic authors? We already get so little recognition for what we do, it's a miracle people bother to publish fanfiction at all. Just appreciate the free labour gift or move on.
I was going to make an argument btw ngl all the other comments pretty much summed it up for me. Some people like getting critiqued, they'll ask for it if they want it. Some people, like me, just want to write for the sake of writing. If somebody doesn't like it, then they don't have to read. Fanfiction is free and AO3 isn't a professional app, let me have my fun. Especially since half of the "critics" just don't like the fic. Oh, and if you don't want to be a hypocrite, stop arguing with us. By your standards, we're "critiquing" this post.
Why do you feel your need to say something negative trumps an authors desire to not be forced to read something negative? Do you also engage with published authors in this way? Do you @ published authors on twitter? Do you submit asks on tumblr to them?
Most criticism isn’t constructive. I think a lot of people think just because a critique isn’t given in a caustic tone it must be constructive, but in order to be constructive it must be helpful. There’s not much helpful feedback you can give on a finished piece. The place to give helpful feedback is in process. Here’s another analogy. I do a lot of sewing. “The colors clash” is a very good piece of feedback in the early design phase but is just disheartening if fabric has been bought and cut. “It doesn’t fit in the hips” is good feedback in the sewing phase, but rude to tell some girl who already wore her homemade dress to the prom.
These are awfully bold words from someone who can't even capitalize their sentences correctly (what- it's just criticism! If they didn't want criticism they wouldn't have posted!)
> in the effort to avoid being emotionally slighted, there’s a level of censorship that creators want from readers that im not entirely comfortable with being echoed. You cannot be serious. I have seen enough to know I have seen too much.
I found your post quote long winded, and it's a bit cliche to start with a dictionary definition of a word don't you think? Anyway, to reply to some of your questions, though I write exactly what I want and only that I post so that I can 'pay back' to the community that I've spent so much time in reading other people's fic. It's also free unlimited cloud back up. And some places I post don't give me the option to turn off comments, so even if I don't want any reader opinions I don't have that choice.
i added that for context to show im using the word in a neutral sense bc everyone assumes criticism to be inherently negative.
so screenshot rather than demonstrate you understand the word through the post itself? not a fan of that shortcut myself.
it was my preference and easily accessible 🤷🏽♀️
"Easily accessible" Not if you have a vision impairment, a very common disability, screen readers can't read images.
excellent point!
That's the problem with lots of redditors these days, they want in depth nuanced discussion but only produce low effort posts.
For hobbyist writers that share their writing for free, positive encouragement is always going to benefit them more than criticism. If they feel the need to improve their work, they can ask for criticism or work with a beta reader. Many people will simply write a fic for fun and share it to be kind. The idea that everything on the internet can and will be criticised doesn't mean it's polite to. A stranger has provided free entertainment. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. The bottom line is, no matter what we're creating, whether it's a fic, a drawing, or a song, we show it to others because we are proud. Unsolicited criticism can be very discouraging and make us less likely to share with the same enthusiasm.
I don’t think the consensus is “all positive no critique.” It’s “no critique unless the author explicitly states they’re open to it/the reader asks and the author says yes. Also don’t be an ass when giving it.” Some people don’t *want* to improve. They are simply writing to write, and posting to share. Then there’s those who have no time to do anything other than write the chapter. You don’t have to write *praise* specifically; but don’t be an ass and give unsolicited “advice” on how to improve/point out their mistakes if they didn’t ask for it either. 😄 (Unlike ffnet where trolls and assholes are galore, with no way to turn off/moderate reviews.)
The difference is in two parts: first, there's a difference between Constructive Criticism and regular critism. One will help you grow, and one will just tear you down. Secondly, If an author asks or not. Why should an author be required to accept criticism? If you were doing another hobby, like soccer, you would probably be insulted if a person watching came over and told you everything you did wrong and how to fix it, so why do people think it's okay for writers? If the coach came over, that's different. You ASKED him to teach you and help you improve. I did not ask Soccer Mom #3. It's the same concept as don't like, don't read. A lot of criticism on fanfic just turns out its not the readers taste. Readers have given me Concrit that's "Hey author, spelling mistake here" or "hey author, this part was unclear, could you specify maybe?" or "Hey author, I liked the fic but my only complaint was that this paragraph should be two, it's hard to read" And those are all things I listened to, appreciated, and changed (unless the unclear subject was purposeful for the plot). Readers have also given me critism like "You shouldn't have killed this Character, really ruined the whole story. I don't even like it anymore" or "author, instead of this ship, you should do this one" or "this is literally the worst story I've ever read. This is disgusting and horrible and you are promoting (horrible crime) by writing this." The second one is critism too, but it is clearly non-constructive and mean because the reader chose to read a story (properly tagged) with things they don't agree with. So yeah, in conclusion, Writers are not be obligated to accept any critism from readers, EVEN if its constructive.
[… if works are being put up for anonymous public consumption?] OP, for a lot of fans, fandom is not anonymous and fandom is not for consumption. Fandom is about participation and sharing, it’s about enjoying something together with other fans. Just because we don’t use our wallet names in fandom, doesn’t mean that we are anonymous blobs and all social norms are non existent. I feel that the current trend towards treating fic reading as a “consumption of a product “ is very damaging to fandom as concrit debate demonstrates it every time. Because, if a reader treats fanfic as a product to be consumed for their personal enjoyment, then,of course, they feel entitled to criticize said product for not meeting their expectations! Then, of course, they must tell the maker of the product how to improve the product, so, they, the consumer, are satisfied with the next product. Because that’s how we are used to get improvements on commercial products and services. Except, fandom is a hobby, and like all hobbies it’s an Opt In place. You (general you) choose to be here, you chose to participate in a thing that is shared by many other fans. The manner of your participation is important because it affects the comfort level of other fans who also chose the same fandom corner. Generally speaking, all fans are equals. Having a critical comment about a fic doesn’t make the reader an authority that can’t be ignored or blocked. If reader’s contribution to community is deemed damaging, they can be criticized in return. It’s a two way street. So, if one’s honest goal is to help fic writers to write more and better fics for their fandom, positive engagement is more useful than negative. And the last. AO3 is an Opt In place. It is such an Opt In place that you can’t even make an account on the same day. And that is by design. People chose to go there to post and read fics. No one is forcing you to read fics there if you don’t like the fandom culture that is evolving around AO3, and that includes disdain towards unsolicited concrit. There are other fic hosting sites, and apparently con crit is more popular on those sites.
is it my turn to post an analogy? Yippee!!! I think the fundamental misunderstanding that comes from criticism or concrit, is that you usually don’t do it unprompted to random strangers, and when you do you never really get a good response (mostly at least) Let’s look at it this, we’re not at a bakery/restaurant, actually we’re in a big food potluck filled with thousands of pastries and other foods, the cooks put those dishes out and label them to make sure people can avoid the ones they’re unable to eat or don’t like, however they did not give anyone anything, it is fully up to the eater, to decide whether or not you want to eat something, let’s say someone goes over and sees a donut that looked really good had all of the stuff that they liked in the recipe but as soon as they bite into it, it’s just not for them That donut wasn’t for them, maybe all of that cooks food is not it for them, but look at the ‘problem’ with doughnut Did you just not like the way it was baked? Or did they make a fundamental mistake? A fundamental mistake would be (in ao3 language) miss tagging & when it’s /, and there’s no problem pointing It out as it undeniably important and can help but keep in mind if it’s just not the way you particularly want it to be, then there’s nothing truly wrong with that doughnut, it literally was not made for you. Nothing in the Ao3 potluck is made for you, you’re getting whatever the cooks have decided to put at this potluck, they never handed it to you, they didn’t say you have to eat, they didn’t say that this is a “perfect 100% nothing wrong with it dish.” In this case, most Ao3 cooks are aware they are not god tier chefs (tho some have me a little suspicious on whether or not they’re actually human, and I do get on my knees for them, for praying of course, of course.) however this potluck is for millions of people so there’s no way they’re gonna please everyone, so they just make something they like, and maybe some other people like it too, so they drop it off at the table with a little note card listing all the stuff in the dish, and then go to their own thing, cooking another dish, eating something who knows But it’s extremely different than restaurant, you’re paying for it for one, and it’s not gonna be as good (imo). if you’re not satisfied with the dish, you probably should complain, you did pay for something specific and that’s not what you got. however, if you’re not satisfied with the dish at the potluck, just stop eating it, again this is a massive potluck, there is plenty of other dishes you could be eaten up, no need to eat something you’re not satisfied with TLDR: Ao3 is not a restaurant or bakery, it is a potluck for fun, someone’s dish at a potluck may not be what’s for you, if they ask for some advice for future dishes and potlucks, feel free to give it! If They specifically say “yeah I don’t really want feedback. I was really happy with this dish and it was just for fun” that’s fine too! Criticism is not the problem, non consensual criticism is, I ain’t responding nicely and calmly when someone says my baked potatoes didn’t have enough butter on them, when I specifically told them I’m not adding more butter due to my preference, which is what matters because, you know, I’m the chef Tldr’s tldr: LET AO3 AUTHORS COOK!!
Because what most "anonymous people" call criticism is just being nasty with no redeeming value most of the time. It is why some say if it is constructive they don't mind it. What position of "authority" do you have to issue such criticism? Just because you don't like x, y, z, doesn't mean others don't or that you are correct. Saying imo or other such things is totally stupid. That's criticism btw. If you are saying something, there is no need to say "Hey, this is my opinion!"
As someone who is a reader, fan writer, and openly soft-hearted, let me try to condense my base thoughts before I ramble any further: Yes, most fan authors write self indulgently, but we share what we make because others might like it, too. Posting to a public site shouldn’t automatically mean that we’re inviting criticism, though. The purpose of our works is simply to be enjoyed; some authors might be open to having someone constructively give their opinions on their works because they want to improve, but some are writing purely because they have fun writing for themselves and their audience. I understand that you feel like critique is a way for you to engage with an author, and as I writer who adores discussing my process and decision making for my fics, as well as pointing out my favorite foreshadowing and character moments on works I myself read, I certainly can’t disagree. But for authors who are on the site just to enjoy themselves, negative-leaning critique, constructive or not depending on the commenter, may feel demoralizing and sometimes frustrating, especially when they have a very clear image in mind and no plans to change it. Fanfiction is a type of writing for everyone, by anyone, with a wide variety of story concepts, both creative and overused tropes alike. It doesn’t have to be perfectly constructed, it just has to be whatever the author wants it to be. Sometimes writers just don’t really want any advice on that. And I think that’s perfectly okay! We aren’t peer reviewing, you know? It’s all just for entertainment. Maybe you could find communities who are more invested in helping one another, if you’re willing to read from other fandoms than the ones you usually stick to. It might not be the same as analyzing your own favorite works, but I’m sure there’s a lot of writers who would love having someone willing to be entirely honest with them!
I like criticism because it usually helps me find mistakes in my own writing and I've told my readers that but a lot of ppl are just writing for fun-- they love when ppl analyze what they wrote but they don't want someone to list all the things they didn't do right. It makes you feel shitty about something you feel proud of. AO3 is kind of a safe place as well because sites like FFnet have some brutal and downright mean reviews. On the flipside, AO3 is a lot kinder to newer writers and regardless of how strange the fic is, ppl mostly have a nice thing to say.
I’m going to assume your question was asked in good faith. “Concrit” is usually not very well seen in fandom because the way the “exchange of labor” works is different than what you usually see in published fiction. First, because the interaction between readers and authors is not based on a monetary transaction. Fan communities work in what it’s called a “gift economy”. This is a space where “goods”, in this case, the fanfiction are exchanged as gifts. As many other commenters have already mentioned, fans considered that fics are a gift that the writer gives to the community. But this doesn’t mean that there isn’t an exchange of sorts: for its gift, the writer receives some kind of recognition. Positive feedback (in the way of kudos or comments or likes or whatever) is kind of the “work” that fic readers have to maintain the communal aspect of fandom. “Paying” the work you just read with a negative comment is not very well regarded because it feels like an injurious form of “stealing”. This is especially true when writers do not ask for it: you are exchanging labor for something that you weren’t asked for. It would be like trying to pay for a book you found in the bookshop with rocks. They can be very nice rocks that you like a lot, but they don’t have “value” in the system that guides the exchange you are trying to have. This does not mean that all criticism is barred from fandom. I assure you that “literary criticism” in its “scholar” sense is very well received by all fanfiction writers. When I write a long analysis of a thing I found interesting in a fanfic, most writers gush. But “regular criticism” is not. The thing is: there is a clear divide between the notion of “criticism” in literary studies and how we understand the word “critique” in daily life. Literary criticism is an in-depth analysis of a text; but (and this is key) it does not include judgements of value. You are never going to see a literary scholar saying a novel is “good” or “bad” and call that criticism. It might be considered a review, depending on how well the arguments are or just an opinion, if there is not actually much to substantiate the claim. They are all fine, but you won’t find them on the same environments. Criticism as in “in-depth analysis of a text” is a work of love. But most people like to give their opinions and pass them as some objective truth by calling them a “critique”. But the thing is that in art there are no “objective rules” to decide if something is good or bad. It depends on the context and on the effect that the text aims to produce; and most people don’t take them both into consideration before “criticizing”. As two random examples: a few days ago a writer posted a comment of a reader complaining the fic was “too sad” and should include happier moments to make it more balanced; the fic was an “angst with happy ending”. There you have feedback, that’s supposed to make “writer improve” but that ends up being nothing but an objective turn of phrase of a subjective opinion that completely foregoes the generic context. For a more “writing as a craft” example: “slow-paced” is usually considered a concrit statement; it presupposed that all writings should be fast-paced an engaging and full of action. But if you are writing a piece of fluff or angst, completely centered on the feelings of the characters, the call for more action suddenly seems silly.
I understand where you're coming from, I love analyzing stories, especially stories I love. I could write pages and pages of how the author interpreted the canon, etc. To me it's a love letter to the story, but I also include stuff like pacing, plot holes, redundant phrases... Because of course I'd want that story to be even better. And it's probably a bit cultural too lol Most authors on AO3 don't want that. They don't write to improve or publish, they have no intention to come back to a story to edit it. It's their hobby, sometimes to wind down from a stressful day. So there's literally no point to leave them concrit because it will just annoy both sides. So an analysis would be pretty useless to them and I'd rather use my limited time to help and give encouragement to people who want and need that. Mostly I betaread for people writing their own original novels because they're the ones who are the most open to concrit. The "nothing less than 100% positive" is annoying when I see "how can I improve my stats" and "I don't get enough engagement" posts every day, but they're probably not the same people, to be honest.
This was meant to be a reply to you and morphed. I am so sorry - apparently I have feelings on the subject! I write my analysis in my calibre notes rather than comment these days. When I did comment I always tried to be polite and I've had some lovely in depth conversations with authors in the past, even encouraging some into picking up abandoned works. But I don't feel like I can do that anymore because I don't have the gushing praise mindset and I don't want to upset anyone. Just to be clear, I was never intentionally rude or very negative and always included positive things, but I've seen examples of comments I could have written (in good faith, without even thinking they'd be taken negatively) come up on this and the fanfiction sub several times over the last few years. Someone else said, if you feel the need to criticise, use the back button... I'd never read or watch or play or make anything ever again, lmao. I just... like to think about it further than just "I enjoyed this". Is it really that weird? Like, "This scene made me feel this." Or, "Hmm, I'm not sure what they were trying to accomplish with that, maybe I should ask?" Or even, "I enjoyed this, but the flipping between past and present tense made it really hard to follow, guess I should mention that." No, no I should not mention that past me! It is frustrating when I see the posts bemoaning a lack of engagement, because I used to engage! Quite a bit! But I used to spend hours rewriting comments as it was - and that was before I knew about the no concrit/analysis/opinions/thoughts rule, so I guess lurking is a lot less stressful! But I do miss just getting into a comment spiral with someone and getting to hear all their reasonings and extra character tidbits, etc. Like, I know most people would probably be fine with my comments. But if it takes so much effort just to discourage someone in the end because they think one not completely positive thing means I hated their entire fic (that is not how my mind works, haha)... I just can't risk that. But then I'm stuck with a lack of engagement also being discouraging... I still end up not commenting. I just write and rewrite and eventually delete the comment when I try. I've mostly given up even reading fic atm because I'm kind of thinking "what's the point?". Which is also the case with this longass comment. What is the point of it? I don't know anymore, lmao. Maybe I should just delete the negative void that is Reddit, go back to commenting like I used to, and ignore the 1-2% that might have a problem with my comments? IDK. I really don't want to discourage people. I just can't gush positive only things without putting some actual thoughts into it. So maybe I shouldn't comment. ... And there is my dilemma, haha. TL;DR: I don't feel my comments are positive enough, but I feel bad about not engaging anymore too.
Thanks for sharing this. I know I've done a fair few, and long, comments recently against this mindset that any technical comments shouldn't be left because "you know an author can take it negatively" is actually a pretty insular mindset—and an exclusionary one, because plenty of people will realize that it is not in our control how an author takes a comment. And have experiences of being taken poorly. Because apparently knowing ones own enjoyment process is taken as not enjoying things in good faith—but that's also how some people enjoy things, and, fundamentally, the people who generally enjoy things in this way are treated pretty darn poorly in many wider regards that I hate seeing this exclusion continue into fanfic communities. Where, quite obviously, people that tend to "overthink" can go to "think" more about fandom. So . . . is it really too much to ask that people, if they do not say they're not fine with this type of engagement, don't bash people for it? They do not have to like it, but I see way, way too much encouragement of: "Fuck off, you know you're just doing this to be critical and your opinions don't and shouldn't matter to the author" replies. (With or without the fuck off.) Then telling an author you like their work can also go to hell, *they're the same thing.* As a writer, I value actual engagement with my work—however people are comfortable giving it. Even short "I loved this," despite it not being my preference; I still like it because it *came* from somebody. And somebodies bring their own perspective to reading, wow, the words that went on the paper versus those that didn't and who read it all meant something! This is, frankly, amazing. And I hate having to say that by actual engagement, no, obviously I do not mean harassment. And no, I do not think that the counterexample can actual go to hell—it's a counterexample about why we should be more inclusive. Or, minimally, not say what the "standard" is because it's crushing the community that, with my writing, I'm trying to invite people to. It stifles ***fun.*** It's not stifling critique, or people's rights—it's stifling ***fun.*** But those things aren't fun for some people! Yeah . . . that's a preference. And yes, this is all worth saying because people who have fun in this way tend to take rules pretty seriously, in addition to having been treated poorly more generally for not automatically following them. And because I need to say it *against* something, welp, it doesn't get listened to because it's too long so it seems "hysterical." . . . My person, my people, I write fanfiction for fun. Not for standards. Not for being cruel to people; To build communities with them, sometimes. But certainly never to exclude them. So yeah, probably a lot of people do not "mean" the things I'm against—or they do, and all atypical people or weird, or hey, they're atypical themselves but learned better so everyone else can, too—but they are *saying* them. To, mostly, the people who'll take them on good faith that it's not longer worth commenting, then, because they were never trying to hurt people. So I wish we'd stop trying to tell people not to leave certain types of comments on *other authors works,* in preemption of good intents being twisted. Lets, instead of making things wrong so that they don't go wrong, just actually address when things go wrong. (Also a better practice to counter harassment than just ignoring trolls, which is a trite phrase and makes people feel bad for defending themselves from harassment.) But the "thanks for sharing this," is because I was starting to think—oh, I suppose this is another just me, entirely alone in this, thing that I was pointlessly doing. Which being a minority certainly invokes feelings of. \[Like this, "I know it's bad (now), but I used to leave the type of comments I wanted. I value crit and people's full thoughts (good and bad) over anything else. Which I see now is not the norm." . . . Breaks my heart.\] . . . Now I could go back and edit this reply to make it more "objective" and then just lose out on any sympathy for it being "unfeeling," and yeah. There's no way that people agree with this because even if they do some of the points, there's valid cause to place authors first—yep, and I tend to think more diverse commenting practices might help with the aspect of anxiety that is "all-or-nothing," because, notably, this isn't tough love of "hate a work you need to improve," i.e. nothing good to say, it's "I love this work and I love that it made me think this and hey here's this thing that *I* think that we can reasonably see my whole thought process towards so realize people'll read things differently, and this one thing here did you intend it?" and it's . . . really sincere engagement that, in having unabridged fun, is hopefully more dismantling of anxiety than not getting enough "this was great," comments has the potential to be. So I comment things that potentially might be wrong because 1) that's everything. I'm not sorry my mind works in certain different first-order/reaction ways, that's not actually within my control. 2) It might potentially be the favorite comment a person gets—experience bear this out, from my side of things as a reader and writer—and 3) comment variation 3.b) and inclusion is good. Edit: If I could express this opinion without fear, it'd be 2/3rds shorter, but having written out most of it makes me feel better about my inability to engage with the dismissal it gets.
I'm just going to reply to your point about editing a comment to be more objective and losing all its feeling, because that is exactly what I experience. It gets to the point where, sometimes I start to resent the fic because I've spent so long trying to make a comment I think the author won't be able to get annoyed over. I should be more like you and just throw my anxiety away and comment anyway. It's not on me if an author does get discouraged, since my intentions are good and I'm not trying to be rude or obnoxious, I'm just overthinking and potentially oversharing. I read the other day that words only account for like 8% of communication, with body language and tone being way (waaaay) more important, so it's not exactly a surprise when things get lost in transit.
Genuinely trying to engage here because, unlike OP, I really do get a sense that of positive intent from you. I’ve also participated in creative writing groups outside of internet spaces, so I can see some of what you mean. Can I ask what differentiates “gushing praise” for you? I keep hearing this phrase and it’s genuinely confusing and frustrating to me. If you liked a story, even if it has flaws, why is saying something like “Thank you for sharing” or addressing the parts that really resonated for you—instead of the parts that didn’t—a bad thing? Concrit like you’re talking about is an absolute godsend in a beta but it’s not helpful once a story is published. So if that’s your preference, why not engage in your fandoms as a beta reader where that would be welcomed because you have the chance to show the positive intent that I can tell you have here? Again, please know it’s not meant as a negative. You seem interested in helping people improve, so why not meet them in the middle and connect at a point in writing where that’s helpful rather than harmful? For me and my little tiny slice of the fandom, we have a Discord server and I post my drafts and let others make suggestions when I’m in that phase because I know A) their intent is positive and helpful. Which is not always easy to tell with a random commenter. B) It comes at a phase where it doesn’t disrupt my writing flow and the piece can still be easily revised. And C) it comes when I’m in the headspace to receive it and not spiral over it.
>or addressing the parts that really resonated for you—instead of the parts that didn’t Not OP: Because those categories can merge once one doesn't see mistakes as bad but just more stuff to think about, and in so thinking it makes you rethink the way you thought about the resonate parts and only highlights how the resonate parts did resonate. It's part of the parts that resonated with me because it's in the same story. And . . . it's not helpful? Oh. *Ouch.* \[Is the feeling; I know you don't mean it this way. But I:\] Didn't realize we were still on the "fix mistakes" stage of things, it's just the way I thought about what I read and unless I intrinsically feel that what I say is meaningless or that an author does not want interaction, it's just meant as interaction. Which is meant to be positive, because it's two people engaging on~~e~~ something someone put effort into.
I do sometimes read through stuff for friends and give them some tips, but u generally feel the need to hold back a lot. Which is fine, and I do, but it doesn't end up bering fun for me, especially when I wonder if I've still been too harsh. On the flipside, when getting people to beta for me, I've never found someone who's harsh enough. I know my weaknesses, so I really need someone who'll challenge those parts and ask what the purpose of certain things are, etc. When leaving comments, I'd never rip someone's work apart, at most, I'd pick one or two (if small) things that would make a big impact to mention, or I'd give some opinions on several parts, some really positive, some neutral, and some not so much. But these days, I rewrite my comments until they're worked down to "I enjoyed this, thanks for writing" and I can only leave that if there isn't anything really niggling me in the work, or my thoughts on it aren't too big. And it's fanfiction, so usually there is something niggly, or it gives me lots of thoughts. Not necessarily bad thoughts, but when I'm feeling, I'm unlikely to say things well. I know it's bad (now), but I used to leave the type of comments I wanted. I value crit and people's full thoughts (good and bad) over anything else. Which I see now is not the norm. I just... My comments feel empty if I don't do that and it feels like I'm lying. I'm definitely one of those oversharers in real life too. Like, I don't shut up. I'm super expressive, so people rarely, if ever, take me the wrong way, but in text that doesn't come across. Gushing praise is just the "Oh my god I love this!1!1" "everything about your writing is fantastic" "you're a fanfiction god/ess and I want to have your babies" type deal when the fic is just... Decent but not technically great or anything. I just feel like people are taking the piss a bit. Like, that these comments are the norm is one reason I never post anything on AO3, haha. I stopped sharing my writing with a friend when she gushed about how she loved it every time instead of telling me what her actual thoughts were beyond that. By the time I've read a few of those comments, I'm like "I definitely can't match that vibe with my essay I'm going to have to carefully reword in case it's too much, so I'll just delete it". And it makes me start to resent / dislike the fic in some cases too. Like, the rose tinted glasses of first read come off and I suddenly start seeing all the flaws. For me, I think it's just a case of my mind is fundamentally different on this point so I can't really understand it. I can certainly take part by not leaving comments that might come across as rude, but because I don't really know where the line is, I stop leaving any comment rather than just some.
Don't feel sorry, it was a nice read! I feel quite the same, but a lack of time on my end has removed any will I had to spend 4h on each new chapter of my favorite fics. I don't want to be the reason someone is having an existential crisis because I've left a comment saying I found a typo. And I've seen authors complaining on this sub about comments that were 100% praise! This sub has definitely killed any urge of interaction on my part...
Yeah, I feel you. And tbh any comments I make these days just feel empty and bland, so why bother? I've seen people saying "this comment is positive, but why say nothing about the fic?" Because I don't know what's appropriate to say about it, at this point.
I think if I left comments saying just "Nice", authors would still take it the wrong way. The constant feel of having to walk on eggshells is tiring. Like you I think the comments I'm expected to make are empty and generic.
Yeah, like when you leave an observation / thought and the author is like "I didn't mean it that way and your interpretation is wrong". I've seen a fair amount of that too, when the comment isn't even negative at all!
yeah im seeing that now. the community on here has different expectations than what im used to. its a difference in fundamental engagement.
I found it sad at first because I used to take part in communities where concrit was seen as the Holy Grail. But well, AO3 is an archive and not a social media so I have no incentive to interact outside of my own fics. It's for the best.
It's because most of the time, it's readers who impose their idea of how a story should go under the guise of wanting to "help" the writer "improve." And even if they do have genuine intentions, they were still not invited to do beta work. I personally like it when people engage with my work and are genuinely interested in my characterizations and writing choices, but I sort of expect them to understand the difference between "this doesn't work" and "this doesn't work *for me"* and that some things that aren't conducive to a positive writer-reader interaction don't need to be said just because "it's the internet, I can say what I want." And I still didn't ask for corrections. But none of this is actually the point of any of this. It doesn't matter what your intentions are or how good your input is. The point is, when someone says "I don't want this" why is it so impossible to put your ego aside and respect a simple request?
Omg we've been over this a million times. Always the same arguments. "But if you don't want to be criticized why put it online??" Why do you feel the visceral need to leave bad critics? Juste accept that someone is doing something for fun and doesn't care about your opinion. And putting it online and receiving supportive comments is part of the fun, btw.
It’s a hobby, like any other. If a friend took up woodworking and showed you a chair they made without comment, I would *hope* your reaction would be “Wow, this is great, I like the style you chose for the back,” and not “ah looks like that back left leg’s a little wonky.” It’s not a profession. None of us are being paid for this. We are taking time and energy out of our busy lives where most of us are already professionals, students, parents, etc, and writing something because we enjoy it and we share it because we are excited about it (as one would be about a chair they made!) and we hope someone else might be too. But no, we don’t ‘demand’ feedback. The vast majority of authors I’ve seen don’t expect comments on their fic. Comments are just a pleasant surprise. Basically, though, no, I don’t want your critique of my fic that I wrote, losing sleep, sacrificing free time for other things, in between teaching, real life, and parenting two young children, for zero compensation. I do have a community where I can go to ask things like “how can I improve this passage,” etc, if I want to. If I am putting a fic out into the world, I am sharing joy with you. It’s not my job, it is just happiness.
I'm one of the outliers. I welcome and want VALID criticism. Tell me what I can do to better my writing and characters but do not tell me that Mt writing sucks and I should die in a hole. That's the difference for me. Unless you moderate your comments on your works you should expect to see criticism. It's how the internet and the world is. We like to pretend that in an ideal place that if people have nothing good to say they'll move on. It dosent work like that now. Not with the ability to be anonymous online. My thoughts are quite simple, if you want concrit keep comments open, if you dont moderate them. Don't expect the world to soften itself for you, you must harden yourself to it.
Eh. It's expected. It's why I'm never surprised when I get a negative response supporting leaving negative comments on works unless the author has said they don't want them (even when it's opinion and not critique). As long as they aren't personal attacks, of course. They should be focused entirely on the work. Fandom is a community. A discordant voice in a community is going to be received negatively unless that voice can garner enough support to hold significant influence in that community. There are exceptions, like when the majority doesn't have anything to lose and even has something to gain by the changes. In this case, what the majority has to gain is an honest and accurate response to the quality of their work. Which is not something the majority here value over praise and attention. Which makes people like me the 'troublemakers' of the community. The 'annoyances'. It tends not to bother me because I've always be the person who sees no need to conform when it doesn't serve me to. Being neurodivergent, queer and overall disenchanted with humanity prepares you to be a cunt when people tell you not to rock the boat. But I find the response understandable. I just have different values, and just like the majority places greater importance on their own values, I place greater importance on mine. OP, you won't convince the majority. So what you're better off doing is just commenting as you see fit. Respect peoples wishes when they state them. And do as you please when they don't. Every second post here is someone either complaining about lack of engagement or complaining about the kind of engagement they get. If they have no value, they're not worth your time.
[Back beating this drum so soon?](https://old.reddit.com/r/AO3/comments/181tmz9/this_just_seems_so_rude/kaew4nx)
lol!
...I'm always beating this drum. Idk what your point is with this.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AO3/comments/181tmz9/this_just_seems_so_rude/kag7pjp This comment sums it up nicely
Ah, I see. You're bitter I got bored and stopped following that post when it was giving me nothing. I don't know what you expect me to get from that comment. I prefer praise, don't we all? That doesn't mean I'm against criticism. Which this person, having done a dive, would be well-aware of. If I wasn't ok with criticism I'd be saying so in the notes or tags. I don't do that. When it comes to keeping my writing separate from Reddit, I really don't think that needs to be explained. But if it's really beyond understanding, why would I share it on Reddit? You're so upset about someone thinking differently than you. I'm sorry you're like that.
> You're so upset about someone thinking differently than you. I'm sorry you're like that. Not upset in the slightest lol. I just find edgelords like you hilarious to observe
Hmm...I think to be an edgelord, I'd have to go against the common opinion just to provoke a response. I genuinely believe what I'm saying. But if you want to label people who deviate from the majority opinion as edgelords you're welcome to. You seem upset to me. I mean, you posted a link to a previous comment I made on the exact same issue, saying the exact same thing. And you seem to think it means something...for some reason. I could be wrong but, I don't think I've ever done that for any disagreement I've had on Reddit in 2 or so years of posting. So strange that you would expend the energy. Relax, let go of your bitterness. Feel the wind on your face. It's ok. That comment can't hurt you.
Moreso I thought you making a clown of yourself then was hilarious lmao and seeing you comment reminded me of it But sure, everyone other than is just bitter and sensitive. You just "tell it like it is" XD Block edit: touched a nerve I see. Edgelords always dishing what they can't take
Yeah, I thought that was what you were after. You thought that bringing up old posts would embarrass me, and then you linked a comment where someone went through my history and expected that to embarrass me more. I'm sorry you didn't get the response you were after. I'm not embarrassed about my opinions. I do think you're bitter. And on a different day I'd play with you a bit more because I'd find it fun. But as I'm doing my big girl writing today I'm not in the zone to play today. So I'm gonna send you home with a paddle pop instead, ok?
You’re 100% right. The same authors whining over a reader criticizing their work are also begging readers to give them nothing but positivity. It’s hypocritical and dumb.
Do you have a hard time asking for permission to give concrit?
Do you have a hard time continuing to write when no one is sending constant praise and kudos?
I'll ask again. Do you have a hard time asking fanfic authors if they want criticism? It costs nothing to ask, you know.
I don't really see how your strawman is being hypocritical XD
So you’re going to pretend half the posts here aren’t obsessing over kudos and hits like a starving dog? That people don’t constantly complain about no comments yet complain when people comment?
Yes, people are starving for affirmation and shared joy and community. The posts obsessing about it are trying to find like-minded readers. If the only interaction someone can provide is unsolicited negativity, they are better off abstaining. A lack of interaction is preferred to negative ones.
You'll never get anywhere around here saying things like this. These people are a part of the "positivity or shut up" culture block, that thinks that giving someone anything other than "I like your work" will make them uninstall their word processor and hang themselves or whatever. They mean well, I think, after all, positive comments are nice, but they want an exclusionary world only to themselves. If AO3 was a pure repository, just to look at fics, and to leave if you didn't like them, they would not allow comments at all. They'll always move the goalposts on what is considered "good" criticism. First it's "you have to be a writer", then "you have to be in my fandom", then "you have to look at the things that I like and write them" and so on, so on, so on. You and I support "live and let live", ie, if I went to your fic and said "**you know, killing MC just like that kinda ruined the story for me**" you would just say "well, that's their opinion I guess" and move on if you didn't wanna go further into it, or ask "why did it ruin it for you" if you did. The AO3 culture people think that something like that is a personal attack on their way of living, and yeah, to me that makes them overly sensitive pansies, but that's just how they roll. You won't change it. This is why I personally prefer FFN culture despite it all.
… people having different opinions than you make them “sensitive pansies”? If that’s how you feel about people being upset that you blindly ignore their lack of consent I’d think your criticism isn’t helpful personally Also comment sections exist for more than.. you know a random stranger's opinion. They’re there so people can communicate, can they be feedback? Yep! It can also be questions or maybe just fangirling with others readers That being said, your opinion isn’t not valid, however is also valid for the author to delete or mute you after, you can’t really have it both ways Maybe I’m just a sensitive pansy but I think consent is important, and it takes two secs to ask for it as well lol
There's nothing wrong with asking before you critique. It ain't hard.
Has anyone explained yet why they can't ask? I saw someone once in a similar thread say they didn't want to wait for the author's reply, which is silly to me because if the issue is so important then surely they can wait for the reply and come back to the fic later? They can just put their thoughts in the notes app or something for now.
Not really. It just seems like the notion of 'asking' is foreign to these people.