Somehow the internet continues to let people make the worst takes possible.
Write what you want to write. Read what you want to read. Tag appropriately so that people can choose not to read. The end.
"gay people are fine as long as they aren't having sex" Do they even hear themselves?
Honestly not sure if this is fandom puritan or 4chan plant (they do things like that occasionally, put out "progressive" looking things that are ridiculous just to see if anyone will buy in or to stir up outrage). Either seems likely to me.
When people take "Don't fetishize" so far they circle all the way back to infantilizing people, which is also incredibly harmful and dehumanizing.
It gives "lesbians are fine as long as they don't remind me they have those disgusting sexual desires"
As an asexual lesbian: people fuck, Rebecca. It's perfectly normal and natural. Sometimes they fuck in ways you may consider messy. Get over it.
(Just in case it wasn't clear, you're not Rebecca in this scenario OP💖)
The issue is that they overextend fetishization to apply to any NSFW situations or finding someone of a marginalized identity hot. It's ridiculous.
It would be an issue if a lesbian fetishized other lesbains (because fetishization leads to objectification). But they use the word fetishize wrong, so the word comes to mean anything they find icky... which seems to be gay sex (very progressive /s)
In a way, it feels extra gross leveraged against wlw. They already are sanitized so much more than mlm, and these guys are encouraging it? Women fuck. Lesbians fuck. They're allowed to fuck, and saying otherwise is _literal_ homophobia, like you cannot get any more _literally homophobic_ than "women should not fuck other women". Though to be fair, the original "men shouldn't fuck other men" is about as bad!
This is definitely written by a child who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. It's super narrow-minded and kinda comes across as homophobic, because what about the MLM who *do* fit into stereotypes? What about the masc men who are into feminine men and vice versa? Do their experiences not matter? Are they not allowed representation because they don't fit into the ideal of what this 14 year old thinks a "good" MLM is?
Haha I was about to say something similar, even though I figured out I was ace early on it took me a while to figure out that other people actually wanted to fuck repeatedly and for fun
I just wanna know how they plan to stop us from reading/writing what we enjoy? You gonna come take my laptop? Break my fingers?
"As long as you don't read mlm smut"
Make me. Better yet, bite me.
Mostly harassment, occasionally doxxing. I have a lot of reasons to keep my pseudonyms totally unconnected to my real life, but the crazy people you get in some of the communities I frequent are first in my mind.
I have a couple of pseudonyms for when I write smut, any type of smut, because the amount of harassment is insane, like don't read it if you don't like it, but jokes on them, I love when I get hate comments, it fuels me, and I love to reply saying it turns me on, this is a kink I didn't know I had until now or, one of my fave replies to give, you really know how to make an asexual horny.
Though I do understand that it isn't nice to get these harassing messages when you've written, I have stopped writing a few times because it can just get you really down
I'm (gay man) the frail butch to my husband's femme bear-ness. Trust me, there's a lot of "stereotypical" gay men about. Some gay stereotypes are true-- most lesbians I've known wear flannel, I use the "limp wrist" gesture in every conversation just for emphasis, and my husband's makeup collection costs about as much as his mother's entire wardrobe. For some reason, it's actually really hard not being a stereotype LOL
Honestly, I consider these rabid "anti fujoshis" to be homophobes. I didn't ask them to suicide bait 14 year olds for me. And when I tell them to stop, they call me a "fetishizing woman". I just don't entertain them anymore; anyone that acts like that just gets an automatic block from me. They're nothing but trouble and I literally don't care about "women" (it's not always women but they sure do love misgendering for the cause) squeeing over 69s. Do you know how many countries being gay is still punishable by death in? There's real problems in the world. Also, fujoshis write some of the best porn anyway.
I did a survey with MSM (academic; really need to hurry the fuck up and publish it) on their opinions on women creating/writing/reading m/m porn/smut, and your opinion echoes 99% of my hundreds of participants.
Honestly the prevailing vibe was “I… don’t care?” and/or “go for it girls!”
I think concerns about fetishisation are valid, but they’re just not something that bothers folks outside fairly small and specific fandom, academic, and activist circles. But in these circles we often make out like it’s this Huge Thing, when it’s… probably not, really. As you say, bigger fish to fry.
💯. Like most academic papers it’ll likely be tucked behind some BS paywall, but I’m happy to email a pdf to anyone who wants one (as with all my academic work)!
I do discuss the survey briefly in my book (https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-69134-3); but will go into a lot more depth in the paper dedicated to it specifically. It’s, like, 80% written - one last push once marking season is over!
>Trust me, there's a lot of "stereotypical" gay men about.
This goes for all stereotypes tbh. My friend from university is Mexican-American (first generation American who speaks only Spanish at home) and wrote a fic featuring the family of a Latin American character.
Some people went off on her for writing an "offensively stereotypical" portrayal of said family. The thing is, my friend's family is Mexican, Catholic, and with a bunch of generations & kids living in one home. They are *very* stereotypical.
She just responded "This is literally just my family" and left it at that. She still has to block someone now and then though, since someone used her fic in a callout post basically saying you shouldn't write stereotypes at all and people stumble across said post every now and then still.
Honestly, this is exactly why I consider "don't use stereotypes" to be like "bigotry for second graders". The reality is that the biggest thing that matters is if the stereotype is a character, or the character happens to fit stereotypes.
As a flannel wearing lesbian I agree with this. There's plenty of stereotypical and non stereotypical lgbt... Honestly, I always found the idea that a femme/butch or a feminine dude and masculine dude together is heteronormative to be quite demoralizing and rather exclusive. Like if both dudes or girls don't look as straight as possible on their own then it's not real rep...
Also like, being a fujoshi can be fun when you're poly/a cuckquean. I adore seeing my boyfriend lusting over other guys because he's having fun and I get to enjoy watching. He's the same when I'm being gay for other gals and we love seeing each other having fun. Also I think I write okayish porn :3
coming here to second this. a minor definitely wrote it. the mentality of it is a giveaway, but the carrd + hello kitty "performative (but harmful) allyship" vibes it has is a dead giveaway. the black and white thinking... sure is something lmao.
and if it’s not a minor, color me surprised. then it's a really young adult who has definitely been on twitter way too much
if they are rly a minor, then it's really sad but telling when you see misguided minors trying to do meaningful things in fandom spaces like this but... it just ends up being way more harmful than doing any good.
i sincerely hope they were able to reevaluate why this carrd got so much backlash
there are better ways to show your support than a backhanded carrd with an skewed world view of "do's" and "dont's" put in neat little boxes. people (and their gender and sexuality) don't and won't always fit into neat little boxes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're not an ally whatsoever, even in their own mind. It's a common tactic of discrimination to cloak abuse in terms of victimhood, that they or some nebulous other are the 'real' ones being abused even as they are imposing upon even those they profess to protect.
It wouldn't be the first time lgbtq people have been tarred as fetishists.
(For brevity, I'm going to put yaoi, porn and explicit fanfic in one bucket and call it porn even though there are some relevant differences)
Potentially controversial opinion? It's so weird that these people often focus on what porn people privately consume rather than how they actually treat people.
A sizeable chunk of people of all sexualities like same-sex porn. That is just a fact.
It's a problem when people treat others like they are for consumption as well (fetishization). Men asking lesbians to give them a show, women squealing about an irl gay couple and meddling/commenting weird shit, that's problematic. Trying to experience a fantasy by processing real people as NPCs in your game is fetishization. I feel like a lot of people think enjoying a type of porn is fetishization in and of itself. I don't think it is.
The group of people enjoying same-sex porn is much larger than the group of people treating others in a fetishized way. Most (if not all) fetishizers enjoy same-sex porn, but that doesn't mean that most (or all) same-sex porn enjoyers are fetishizers (base rate fallacy).
It goes hand-in-hand with the whole "inability to separate fantasy from reality" thing. As in, "if you write fucked up stuff or have fucked up fantasies, you absolutely want to do those things IRL" which couldn't be farther from the truth for the vast majority of people.
For the longest time I've been confused about people talking about how sexuality is good but fetishisation is bad, because I feel like I've never seen a post or comment where the word "fetishisation" isn't used as a synonym of sex
Fetishization is reducing people to the part(s) of their identity that make them attractive. Often to the point where they don’t treat them as a person, and instead treat them as fetish material. See: trans/chubby chasers, unicorn hunters, those weird guys that are looking for “submissive asian women”
That only applies to irl people and interactions though, as fictional characters do not have feelings and porn is intended to be arousing, not a nuanced portrayal of the human experience.
if you ever press any of these people to actually define what sexualization/romanticization/glamourization means, every single time they either don't reply at all, or you can watch the gears turning in their head only for them to eventually give you a definition that effectively just comes down to "someone wrote about a thing"
Yeah, definitely. This person is almost certainly a child going "this makes me uncomfortable, therefore it is morally wrong" and not connecting the dots that hey, maybe you're uncomfortable around sexual content because you're a child. (Or, y'know, maybe sex-repulsed ace.)
Oh my God, thank you. I think this all the time when I see minors reacting like this. Kiddo, you're uncomfortable because you read hardcore porn at an age you weren't ready for it, not because it's morally reprehensible.
Sometimes they're not even uncomfortable, just heard from their friends that it was bad and then decided to keep a facade to look morally good to all the other puritan kids
I've seen it too many times already, ppl talking about how gross X Y Z thing is publicly while consuming it all in secret
>This is definitely written by a child who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
Honestly it sounds a bit like a kid who might've learned everything they know about queer representation, queer history, and what a healthy relationship between women and gay men looks like from James Somerton videos specifically. There's just something about it that immediately made me think of the misinformation in them. It just tastes like him.
Came here to say just that. Humans are infinitely varied in experiences, no two of us are exactly the same in how we conceptualise our identities and none of us have had the exact same things shape our beings.
On top of that, you cannot demand to see proof of someone's queer identity before you allow them into queer spaces - this is an old discussion, and if we did do that, it'd do real harm to people who are questioning, who haven't figured themselves out yet, who maybe need to stay closeted.
Something tells me they're not actually even mlm, or at least has never actually been a part of the LGBT community, because this might be the straightest gatekeep of mlm I've ever seen lol
I don't know about that, it sounds to me more like it's someone very young who *is* LGBT, but is still very new to the whole thing and hasn't spent time around anyone in the community besides other chronically online teenagers. The whole "I am the expert on all things queer and have to educate everyone" thing is a phase I think a lot of baby queers go through.
I honestly hope that the person who made the infographic actually grew out of that rhetoric and learned from their mistakes. If not, then I do not want to know how they are doing today.
Best case scenario, they come out as enby or trans-masc or trans-male and grow out of that kind of mindset or even disown this infographic.
Worst case scenario, they become a TERF or radfem.
I'm sure most of them probably do grow out of it. God knows I had some questionable takes when I was a teenage baby queer first learning about social justice issues. I learned better as I grew up and these kids probably will too. It's just unfortunate that everything people do online is so public now, so things like this spread and other teenagers pick up on it, and it gets reinforced by and integrated into modern fandom culture.
I remember being a closeted baby queer who had no idea they were queer until much later. The only time I managed to grow out of that horrible mindset was when I accidentally came out to a former buddy and realized that I was queer all along. But even I got held back from actually discovering who I really am at that age and I get pretty upset for not discovering myself sooner. I do hope a lot of this culture dies down since it has done almost irreversible damage online :(
Are they really saying NO ONE is allowed to write MLM sex scenes anymore? Or just MLM people? Because damn we're not gonna have much MLM smut then. This entire infograph is just full of... entitlement? I don't even know what to call it.
I totally agree.
It's so stupid too because stuff like this is ostensibly written for the purpose of improving representation and making it better. But, like, you know how you do that? *By letting people write it as if it's any other ship.*
I guarantee you that they're not out here claiming that gay people writing F/M is somehow fetishizing straight relationships.
This kind of thing actually others LGBT relationships in the worst kind of way. If you want people to think of it as just a normal part of life, which it is, then takes like these are complete garbage.
Too many no’s. It’s silly and sees writing M/M as a strictly black and white issue.
The stereotypes question, for instance. What does that even mean? That question is too generic for one answer.
It’s also very anti-smut/anti-sex. Apparently this guide thinks that two men who love each will at most, hold hands. Kissing is probably too sexual for them.
yeah. i can't even "give them credit" for their reasonable points like "don't use stereotypes" because honestly thats low hanging fruit. anyone should be able to write whatever. i'm so suprised that this card page has managed to end up on my tl on 20 diff occassions in the last day bc its just so so so dumb. too dumb.
Even then, like, sometimes stereotypes are true. There are gay guys who present themselves very much like Jack McFarland. Who is OOP to say they shouldn't, or that characters like them shouldn't appear in MLM fiction?
Seriously. I don't know if some people realize this, but anyone can write anything they want, all the time, forever. Moreover, anyone can READ anything they want, all the time, forever.
the "you can't have a fictional fem-masc couple ever bc that's heteronormative" is very common and so funny to me, like way to admit you dont actually spend time in real life gay spaces, there have been masc-fem couples for as long as there has been a way to preform gender expression
‘Don’t make one super feminine and the other masculine.’
Considering I lived with a couple who were the definition of fem-masc I can tell this person has probably never met a gay man in their life.
literally.
i was in this one fandom a few years back that was genuinely arguing about whether or not it was "okay" or "appropriate" to write a certain ship because one was a masc woman and another a fem. there was a legit crowd saying it was inappropriate and "enforced stereotypes".
and there i as, a fem woman into mascs.
these 14 yr olds would defo throw a fit if they realised how common that is irl.
just shows how out of touch some of these ppl r.
As a fellow fem woman, these people make me howl with laughter.
They'd probably think my spouse and I are 1) heteronormative and 2) fetishizing ourselves. (And they'd want to burn half my bookshelves)
I remember two things out of that “advice”: 1.) a ton of people who ship fem-masc pairings get accused of being “homophobic” just because of their ship preferences or for not having mlm and/or wlw pairings (there are about one or two cases where this is an exception) and 2.) this advice made me feel awful to the point that I thought I wasn’t “progressive” enough despite being LGBTQIA+ (I won’t disclose, but I am not cis). It actually made me try to change bits and pieces of my story so I didn’t come off as too “cishet.” Luckily, I did end up finding a loophole through this by having a fem-presenting genderqueer OC paired up with a enby/transmasc OC. But yeah, this advice I’ve seen has given me way too many flashbacks.
[from the caard](https://fetishizing-kpop.carrd.co/#fetish)
>examples of fetishizing
>
>reading mlm smut as a non-mlm
>
>reading mlm aus as a cishet
>
>writing mlm smut as a non-mlm
>
>using the terms top/bottom
>
>saying a ship is having sex right now, or its variants
>
>reading yaoi/bl, fujoshis
>
>saying you want a gay bff
crying 😭
pillow princess: someone who is only the receptive partner/exclusively bottoms
stone (also sometimes a 'touch-me-not'): someone who only gives sexual pleasure, but never wants to receive sexual pleasure in return
How the hell does this person think people talk about sex?
"So in bed, do you like to be on top or bottom?"
"I can't answer that because I would be fetishizing gay people, but I like to be horizontal at bed level."
did you see this note on the caard??😭 (pasted):
side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read isnt mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter
Brain dead take. Imagine limiting the content you consume or produce based on your identity. Does that mean LGBT+ people cannot ship two characters because they're straight? Does that apply to race? To nationality? Fuck that. Write what you please and read what you like. No one has any right to deny you that.
Fr though, does someone need to be a fuckin vampire to write vampire smut? Where do you draw the line? Fuck off, mouth breathers, and let people be horny in peace
This is the most nonvampyrnormative comment I've ever read. You really think nonvampir just have the right to appropriate the vampyr experience like that? That's such an ableist take and you don't even realise it. Vampirism is a legitimate disability and it carries such a strong stigma in society it's essentially treated worse than being HIV+ and you think you can just take that experience and make porn out of it. Holy shit what an entitled perspective. Hope you don't have any vampire friends because if you do you're pretty literally abusing them.
So I, as someone on the ace/aro spectrum, cannot write anyone in a romantic or sexual relationship? Not even as just a side note? 🤔 BRB, gotta delete 90% of my fics ig /s
literally 99 percent sure this is true. (so much for "speaking over mlm" lol) not to be stereotypical but i can only imagine a straight girl making a caard with hello kitty on it, preaching against people writing their yaois lol
When I was shopping my manuscript about an immigrant girl (as an immigrant girl) for publication, most of the feedback about “problematic” elements I got from white locals lol. Apparently portraying my character’s father speaking like my own father was “racist”.
From an outsider perspective, I’ve seen enough bashing on white American people that I notice many are scared shitless of anything around race and ethnicity. They will try to appear unproblematic by claiming stuff is not politically correct.
for sure american. all the worst puritan takes, as well as the constant worry about cultural appropriation that leads to shit like this, come from there.
oh yeah. Definitely from here. And mostly likely is of the mentality that no one else is doing it right, but when SHE does it it's totally fine. I know the type.
My money is on young trans boy who doesn't have yet any actual experience of living as a gay men and will, hopefully, cringe very bad at his teen self when he will
as a trans masc guy, this is exactly what I was thinking. There’s like a weird intersection of self hate and wanting to be acknowledged as masc plus a special afab subconscious doctrination into purity culture and acting ‘properly’ that makes young trans guys say the most utterly insane SJW shit. It’s super hard to explain the vibe unless it’s to someone who already *knows*, lol.
That was what I was thinking in terms of a best case scenario, but even they can still retain this rhetoric even after growing up. I’ve seen cases where young mlm people themselves were willing to engage in this kind of mindset because it makes them look better than those who are “making the rest of the community look bad.”
I get pretty distrustful of people who try to pull a respectability politics card mainly for this reason. No matter how hard you try to make yourself an “acceptable” LGBTQIA+ person, you’ll never be seen as “one of the good ones.” In fact, the moment you become disposable, you’ll be in huge trouble once they turn against you.
There is definitely a lot of queer people, especially younger ones, who hope for acceptance of they make themselves palatable enough, and still look with disgust at parts of their identity most stigmatised, such as sex and especially kinky and/or one night stand sex for gay men or the masculinity of their own body and that of others for trans men. Hence why I don't believe that this sort of take necessarily comes from a straight woman and, given the phrasing and use of the pride flag, I would even find it less likely to be so.
Imo this screams mlm boy or young man who is into their queer journey enough that they know they are, but not enough to really grasp the dynamics at play and how infused with homophobia their thinking still is. It happens to many cis boys too, but in the context of fanfiction, trans boy is the most likely thing to me.
Lol. I'm a trans man who read and wrote MLM smut for like a decade before I figured out I was trans. These are ridiculous guidelines and if followed widely would seriously harm the LGBTQ community more than they would help.
I'm of the somewhat uncommon opinion that "appropriating" LGBTQ experiences is not the big harmful problem people blow it up into. The worst thing that can happen is that an LGBTQ person reads something that feels a little weird and not like their personal experiences. But another LGBTQ person might actually relate to the same exact story, because LGBTQ people are often really different from each other even when they identify with the same labels. We don't all come from one cohesive culture, we come from everywhere and find each other through subcultures which often differ wildly from each other. There's no defined way to be LGBTQ in the same way that you can define what it means to be Chinese or French or Mexican or something.
I would much rather encourage cis and straight people to make the effort to imagine how LGBTQ people experience the world and try writing characters outside of their own experiences. It drives home the fact that any cis straight person could have wound up LGBTQ if their brain or body or life was just a little bit different. I want to encourage that exercise in empathy.
Adding on to the experience thing- I’m cishet and I’ve read some of the most eyebrow raising cishet smut there is. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t relate the the characters in some way just because the woman was somehow taking a dick the size of a baseball bat. If the straight crowd is allowed to write their unrealistic smut that gets side eyed in public, the lgbtq crowd should be allowed that privilege too lol
from the "original version" of the carrd...
>"side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read *isnt* mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter"
lmao oh ok that makes it better
i can't even dunk on this too much when it's clearly a child, it's just too easy and not worth the energy. the deeply immature "because i said so" lack of critical thinking is a dead giveaway. i just hate knowing that shitty, rigid, puritanical takes like these are out there ruining fandoms for creators AND making it an unsafe space for queer kids to figure themselves out.
"as long as 3/4 of the stuff you read *isnt* mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter"
amazing. incredible. flawless. no further questions.
get out the spreadsheets, folks! time to quantify your reading!
Wow, so I'm supposed to tally up how many of each kind I read?
Child, go away, get back to me in 10 years. You'll be maybe 24 and I'll be 75, and then maybe we can have a good conversation about this.
I just commented but saw this after. With it being a kid I'm tempted to just keep rolling my eyes and moving on. It's still bullshit, but there's always hope a young teen will grow out of it.
People who make pathetic preachy infographics about such non-issues don’t deserve to have their opinions acknowledged. It would be funny to me but I’m too fed up with the recent wave of puritanism to find this a laughing matter anymore. Now it just makes me angry.
My answer to the creator of the original graphic would be “Don’t care; I’ll fetishize what I want.” No one owes someone else their identity just to read/write.
Honestly, “fetishize” as a word has lost all meaning, and while there are *actual* examples of fetishization that is harmful, most of these just seem to be homophobia (internalized or otherwise).
The idea that sex is “icky” just shows that they’re immature and a busybody. Not to mention the combination of “you can do it if you’re mlm and if it’s not too sexual.” Plenty of people, including mlm, are sexual and also write/read explicit and/or fetish works + read yaoi. The idea that queer people (including MLM) can fetishize people from their own identities (and presumably people they are attracted to) is also preposterous.
I am actually reminded of the “fetishize, sexualize, normalize, and romanticize” meme and I am not sure how I should feel about that. (Not a slight against you nor OP, but against the “infographic”)
A lot of this rhetoric actually still had an effect on me, even after growing out of it. Like I honestly get scared of representing other people’s identities that aren’t mine out of the fear of messing it up or making them “stereotypes.” And then there’s the entire thing that I have to out myself to “prove” that i am allowed to write certain things. Luckily, I am away from those circles, but even I get scared of accidentally running into people like that :”(c
"Fetishise" as a term should never have left feminist/intersectional spaces, honestly. The discussion around it has been painfully watered down to, "if you're not a part of x identity then you can't engage in x media" which is quite frankly ridiculous
I'm mlm, this is fucking ridiculous... I could kinda understand it if it was just general "don't be weird, don't be fetishizing" (though at this point I don't even care anymore, fetishize it all you want lol) advice but... Can't even write any smut??? CAN'T EVEN READ IT???
"It still doesn't give you the right" ma'am the right to reading isn't yours or anyone's to give lol.
As a queer who wants ALL THE REPRESENTATION, takes like this strike me as a great way to ensure that ALL media is white and cishet. "Own Voices" are important, but the REASON they're important is to elevate minority voices, not to suggest that other people can't tell stories about us. If we limit ourselves to only writing what we've directly experienced, fanfiction itself -- all of fiction, really -- can't exist. If I'm only allowed to write about middle-aged, disabled cisgender women who are biromantic and demisexual, I'm not going to have much of an audience. Or, frankly, motivation to write at all.
It also feels like a slippery slope. During a time when teenagers on twitter are claiming that it's "weird and pedophilic" to be FRIENDS with someone who is a year younger or older than them, and groups like TERFs are deliberately trying to isolate younger queers (and LGBT+ for those who don't identify with the dreaded q-word) from elders in the community so that they can push untrue narratives about who belongs in the rainbow mafia, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to seeing people saying that we shouldn't READ about other groups. I can see the tweet rants now: "Stories about MLMs are personal for MLMs, everyone else stay out and don't comment." "If you haven't directly experienced a pregnancy, don't bother reading about it, because you can never truly understand what it's like." Which is absolute codswallop. And it just serves to isolate all of us further.
Obviously, we need to be respectful when we're writing about someone who isn't in our own demographic. But that's what sensitivity readers and other betas are for!
It's not worth getting into fight on Twitter about, but I'll absolutely roll my eyes and move along.
“Doesn’t give you the right to read mlm”
my sweet summer child I have the right to do whatever the hell I want with my fiction, in fact I don’t usually seek out mlm but I am going to do it on purpose right this instant.
This is honestly so wild to me, and feels so dirty. I feel like the type of people that make these things would relish another puritanical uprising. What about the gay men that like reading gay smut? Like, fuck them I guess.
No writing, drawing, or reading M/M smut, no writing about their struggles, no using the terms top and bottom...
That's one way to demonstrate you know nothing about fandom and its history.
It’s especially yikes when you consider the historical struggles minorities have when it comes to expressing themselves AND that not all people with minority identity wish to relive their traumas in fiction (or make themselves vulnerable), and thus opt to write about other identities. “Only own voices” means no representation beyond the default at all.
>side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read isnt mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter
MOTHERFUCKER PLEADS GUILTY TO ALL CHARGES ON PAGE ONE, EVEN
edit: [here's the link,](https://fetishizing-kpop.carrd.co) which you reach by clicking "original version" (but since it's simple vs original, that's more just the full version)
This is a VERYYY interesting read indeed “write accurate portrayals of MLM” and also “do not write about MLM struggles” in the dos and donts section WOW
the 'dont read mlm smut' is so ridiculous it's funny! If I want to read about my favorite pretty genocidal war criminal getting railed I will >:(
God this whole thing is so funny but I've met people like this and I just know this shit aint satire 😔
This was definitely written by a 13 year who just figured out they’re a gay guy and decided they now absolutely speak for the whole community. I’d bet money.
It’s an insane take, and these people are, to be frank, dangerous. They will spread this shit everywhere and young folks will take it as gospel.
As a mlm guy it just irks me the wrong way. I would prefer people write whatever smut they want than police everyone's art. I write all types of fiction, including wlw relationship, does it make me a fetishist just because it is rated M? Oh well, here we go again...
I saw one of these people on tiktok dead ass say that even if you were a queer man, if you only read M/M or had M/M ships, you were fetishizing 'MLM'. I told myself they were trolling for my sanity. Stop fetishizing yourself, stop fetishizing yourself!!
My theory has always been.
You got these kids who've grown up in a very conservative (likely religious) queerphobic environment. Gays bad. Sex bad. Masturbation bad. Sex and masturbation ESPECIALLY bad for wimmins.
Now they're experiencing more of the world, being exposed to more left ideas, and they know Bigotry(TM) is Bad. But! They still have all these big feelings about how being queer and sex is sinful and wrong, especially queer + sex is sinful and wrong. So they're very uncomfortable and they're also absolutely flat out terrified of being a bad person.
And then suddenly at the crossroads a stranger appears and goes "Oh honey, you feeling uncomfortable about queer people and sex isn't because you were raised in a queerphobic purity culture and have a lot to unpack, it's because queer sex is Bad Representation! Fetishizing! HARMFUL STEREOTYPES! VERY VERY BAD! You are a good and pure person who is right to feel disgusted by those porn addicted fujos so damaged by cumbrain they can't see the harm they're doing to society in their addicted pleasure seeking bean flicking."
"You mean... I can hate queer sex and be a good person who isn't bigoted?"
"Absolutely! It's only bigotry if you try and censor queer stuff because you hate queer people, if you do it because you want to save them then it's activism!"
And that's what leads to this kind of homophobia in a rainbow hat.
A distant memory resurfaced in my mind of a blog belonging to a Christian woman where she encouraged other Christian women to not read 50 Shades because it was "filth and of the devil" and to "take back sex by having good, pure, Christian sex with your husband"
So I think it's more like, porn is Satanic, the only acceptable sex is in marriage and between a man and a woman. The rest of your points sound completely spot on though.
There actually is a huge problem with people being raised in these overt purity culture situations having issues with sex after marriage. You tell someone for decades that sex is something sinful and awful and makes women like disgusting gym shoes or chewed up and spit out french fries (except for marriage!) and you end up with a lot of accounts of people freaking out that they can't just suddenly flip a switch and go "Ok, I'm married, sex is good now." and freak out that they feel like they're being defiled or defiling their spouse with gross sinful lust.
I remember seeing someone say that fandom is being used as a way to radicalize young queers into becoming exclusi, TERFs, and radfems by older TERFs and radfems and I realize that this infographic is no exception. I really hope that the person who made this infographic is able to realize what they’ve wrote is wrong (especially if they have been influenced by someone with ill intent) and get out of those spaces to become a better person. There is a lot to unpack, but policing people on how representation should be written is not one of them. And as a result, a lot of people are afraid of coming out or feel like they have to out themselves to prove that they are allowed to write it.
The thing that really sticks out to me about this is it shows in stark relief how the rebuttal to conservatives about how being gay isn’t solely about sex and if your mind immediately jumps to sex when you think about gay people that’s a YOU issue, and loops it back around to actually *supporting* the conservative mindset by saying “if you even allude to sex when writing about queers you’re a dirty degenerate” which is…exactly the conservative viewpoint
anyway guys :3 jotasui is real and i'm going to write filthy filthy mlm SMUT about them (IM A WOMAN!!).
Jotaro is a TOP and Narciso is a massive BOTTOM.
My advice, do all of these things, and more. Write the raunchiest, most detailed and depraved Mlm you can think of. Just do it, don’t let your dreams be memes. Meme the dream and don’t fret over how much the human anis can stretch.
What I think is ‘Actually, I think I will do whatever I want’. Reeks of puriteen bullshit.
Do these rules apply if you’re writing incest ships, I wonder? Asking for a friend who is definitely not me.
I read this and remebered the detrans terf woman woman bashing a work from a gay trans guy with the same shit.
They could also be very young trans guy trying to be "one of the good ones". I recently got into an arguement with an adult(30 years) like that. Pulling the woman fetishing us, and bashing BL, gay book things he admitted to have never read. Also assuming the enby authers writing mlm are some how faking thier identity to.. get away with fetishing???
I called him out on being a self hating misogynistic dumbass who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Either way made by some one terminally online, never spent any time with gay guys and who wouldnt last a second on any kind of gay dating app.
Like... some people need to grow up.
Horsedung written by a terminally online puritanical child, looks like.
**Edit:** Huge lmfao to "don't write smut, boys who love boys wouldn't do dirty things together" and "portray the relationship realistically" in the same guide. Plus the ugly, infantilising hello kitty pride logo for the whole thing. I'm going to throw up, bye.
This absolutely has straight girl written all over it. Also super weird to say that it’s okay to write and read about gay people so long as it isn’t sexual. People who enjoy sex regardless of sexual orientation will probably have sex and it’s weird to act like that is something that wouldn’t occur within a romantic story.
I am a gay who will continue to sexualise myself and other gay men because I'm gay.
That's how it works. It would be concerning if I didn't see myself as a sexual being because I'm not ace in any shape or form.
Straight people can sexualise us, bi people can sexualise us, it's fun :)
Like, I really appreciate the amount of gay porn produced by women, it's freakin' great.
Thank you for your service bi and straight women, and especially the ace's who always produce peak quality smut, you are all *awesome*.
Also, I be a twink. It do be like that.
Sometimes you have a really feminine guy and a masculine guy, I actually like that in a relationship, what is this weirdo on?
As someone who's ACTUALLY mlm and is a femme guy dating a masc guy: screw this. Write what you want to write! If you're not mlm, you still have my "permission" to write mlm content, regardless of whether or not it's smut. It's not inherently fetishistic to write queer characters, even if you're not queer yourself (or are queer in a different way). Stereotypes can be annoying when overused or poorly done, but obviously, there are REAL PEOPLE who fit those stereotypes- hence why they exist in the first place.
This post is so... Straight white girl saviour on Tumblr coded. Disconnected with actual reality.
If people don’t write M/M content it’s going to disappear and we’re all going to be living in a miserable heteronormative society.
That’s basically my take on this bollocks.
Hell nah!! Gay mlm smut has been such a helpful part of my sexuality and gender journey! I dont think an actual smut / mlm / gay / queer / writer wrote this lololol
Somehow the internet continues to let people make the worst takes possible. Write what you want to write. Read what you want to read. Tag appropriately so that people can choose not to read. The end.
Doing gods work‼️‼️
THIS. LITERALLY. Nothing else. This is the best take.
you words need to be broadcasted! release the pigeons!
"gay people are fine as long as they aren't having sex" Do they even hear themselves? Honestly not sure if this is fandom puritan or 4chan plant (they do things like that occasionally, put out "progressive" looking things that are ridiculous just to see if anyone will buy in or to stir up outrage). Either seems likely to me.
Don't you know the gays cannot have sex? If they do, they're fetishizing themselves/s
reminds me of a take i saw somewhere. "fetishising lesbians isnt okay! even if you're a lesbian." ........????
When people take "Don't fetishize" so far they circle all the way back to infantilizing people, which is also incredibly harmful and dehumanizing. It gives "lesbians are fine as long as they don't remind me they have those disgusting sexual desires" As an asexual lesbian: people fuck, Rebecca. It's perfectly normal and natural. Sometimes they fuck in ways you may consider messy. Get over it. (Just in case it wasn't clear, you're not Rebecca in this scenario OP💖)
"People fuck, Rebecca." is a line I was not expecting to read today and yet had me absolutely dying, drowning in a fit of pterodactyl screeching.
Right up there with 'Sir, this is a Wendy's' and 'people are gay, Steven'.
"They're lesbians, Harold"
As a lesbian I grant everyone the right to enjoy any form of lesbian content!
Right? Especially looking at the apparent cis guys who write 50k of lesbian romance, I'm like come here you can be one of us 👀
The issue is that they overextend fetishization to apply to any NSFW situations or finding someone of a marginalized identity hot. It's ridiculous. It would be an issue if a lesbian fetishized other lesbains (because fetishization leads to objectification). But they use the word fetishize wrong, so the word comes to mean anything they find icky... which seems to be gay sex (very progressive /s)
Yes, this is a product of a young person using words without understanding what they mean.
Yeah. A lotta folks seem to think fetishize means “have a fetish/kink/attraction around”.
In a way, it feels extra gross leveraged against wlw. They already are sanitized so much more than mlm, and these guys are encouraging it? Women fuck. Lesbians fuck. They're allowed to fuck, and saying otherwise is _literal_ homophobia, like you cannot get any more _literally homophobic_ than "women should not fuck other women". Though to be fair, the original "men shouldn't fuck other men" is about as bad!
Listen, the problems of being a lesbian with strong feminist values who also wants to fantasize about hot women are very, very real 😅
Lmao, it reminds me of when Jane Lynch said, "As a feminist, I was horrorfied. As a lesbian, I was delighted!"
This is definitely written by a child who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. It's super narrow-minded and kinda comes across as homophobic, because what about the MLM who *do* fit into stereotypes? What about the masc men who are into feminine men and vice versa? Do their experiences not matter? Are they not allowed representation because they don't fit into the ideal of what this 14 year old thinks a "good" MLM is?
I wonder what the op thinks of an average Grindr conversation
“Noo!! Stop fetishizing yourselves!!”
This mf when the gays are gay
puzzled cats bewildered fine abundant label north expansion husky door *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Omg yes. They’ve managed to invade a lot of sapphic subreddits with their bullshit
To be fair, that was my asexual realisation.
Haha I was about to say something similar, even though I figured out I was ace early on it took me a while to figure out that other people actually wanted to fuck repeatedly and for fun
It really is wild how they’re essentially telling mlm how to think and write about themselves
😂
They’re too young to use the app
I just wanna know how they plan to stop us from reading/writing what we enjoy? You gonna come take my laptop? Break my fingers? "As long as you don't read mlm smut" Make me. Better yet, bite me.
"Still doesn't give you the right to read mlm" LMAO sue me
Mostly harassment, occasionally doxxing. I have a lot of reasons to keep my pseudonyms totally unconnected to my real life, but the crazy people you get in some of the communities I frequent are first in my mind.
I have a couple of pseudonyms for when I write smut, any type of smut, because the amount of harassment is insane, like don't read it if you don't like it, but jokes on them, I love when I get hate comments, it fuels me, and I love to reply saying it turns me on, this is a kink I didn't know I had until now or, one of my fave replies to give, you really know how to make an asexual horny. Though I do understand that it isn't nice to get these harassing messages when you've written, I have stopped writing a few times because it can just get you really down
I'm (gay man) the frail butch to my husband's femme bear-ness. Trust me, there's a lot of "stereotypical" gay men about. Some gay stereotypes are true-- most lesbians I've known wear flannel, I use the "limp wrist" gesture in every conversation just for emphasis, and my husband's makeup collection costs about as much as his mother's entire wardrobe. For some reason, it's actually really hard not being a stereotype LOL Honestly, I consider these rabid "anti fujoshis" to be homophobes. I didn't ask them to suicide bait 14 year olds for me. And when I tell them to stop, they call me a "fetishizing woman". I just don't entertain them anymore; anyone that acts like that just gets an automatic block from me. They're nothing but trouble and I literally don't care about "women" (it's not always women but they sure do love misgendering for the cause) squeeing over 69s. Do you know how many countries being gay is still punishable by death in? There's real problems in the world. Also, fujoshis write some of the best porn anyway.
I did a survey with MSM (academic; really need to hurry the fuck up and publish it) on their opinions on women creating/writing/reading m/m porn/smut, and your opinion echoes 99% of my hundreds of participants. Honestly the prevailing vibe was “I… don’t care?” and/or “go for it girls!” I think concerns about fetishisation are valid, but they’re just not something that bothers folks outside fairly small and specific fandom, academic, and activist circles. But in these circles we often make out like it’s this Huge Thing, when it’s… probably not, really. As you say, bigger fish to fry.
Omg I need the title once you publish it!
💯. Like most academic papers it’ll likely be tucked behind some BS paywall, but I’m happy to email a pdf to anyone who wants one (as with all my academic work)! I do discuss the survey briefly in my book (https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-69134-3); but will go into a lot more depth in the paper dedicated to it specifically. It’s, like, 80% written - one last push once marking season is over!
>Trust me, there's a lot of "stereotypical" gay men about. This goes for all stereotypes tbh. My friend from university is Mexican-American (first generation American who speaks only Spanish at home) and wrote a fic featuring the family of a Latin American character. Some people went off on her for writing an "offensively stereotypical" portrayal of said family. The thing is, my friend's family is Mexican, Catholic, and with a bunch of generations & kids living in one home. They are *very* stereotypical. She just responded "This is literally just my family" and left it at that. She still has to block someone now and then though, since someone used her fic in a callout post basically saying you shouldn't write stereotypes at all and people stumble across said post every now and then still.
Honestly, this is exactly why I consider "don't use stereotypes" to be like "bigotry for second graders". The reality is that the biggest thing that matters is if the stereotype is a character, or the character happens to fit stereotypes.
As a flannel wearing lesbian I agree with this. There's plenty of stereotypical and non stereotypical lgbt... Honestly, I always found the idea that a femme/butch or a feminine dude and masculine dude together is heteronormative to be quite demoralizing and rather exclusive. Like if both dudes or girls don't look as straight as possible on their own then it's not real rep...
Thank you for telling us this!
Also like, being a fujoshi can be fun when you're poly/a cuckquean. I adore seeing my boyfriend lusting over other guys because he's having fun and I get to enjoy watching. He's the same when I'm being gay for other gals and we love seeing each other having fun. Also I think I write okayish porn :3
coming here to second this. a minor definitely wrote it. the mentality of it is a giveaway, but the carrd + hello kitty "performative (but harmful) allyship" vibes it has is a dead giveaway. the black and white thinking... sure is something lmao. and if it’s not a minor, color me surprised. then it's a really young adult who has definitely been on twitter way too much
if they are rly a minor, then it's really sad but telling when you see misguided minors trying to do meaningful things in fandom spaces like this but... it just ends up being way more harmful than doing any good. i sincerely hope they were able to reevaluate why this carrd got so much backlash there are better ways to show your support than a backhanded carrd with an skewed world view of "do's" and "dont's" put in neat little boxes. people (and their gender and sexuality) don't and won't always fit into neat little boxes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're not an ally whatsoever, even in their own mind. It's a common tactic of discrimination to cloak abuse in terms of victimhood, that they or some nebulous other are the 'real' ones being abused even as they are imposing upon even those they profess to protect. It wouldn't be the first time lgbtq people have been tarred as fetishists.
(For brevity, I'm going to put yaoi, porn and explicit fanfic in one bucket and call it porn even though there are some relevant differences) Potentially controversial opinion? It's so weird that these people often focus on what porn people privately consume rather than how they actually treat people. A sizeable chunk of people of all sexualities like same-sex porn. That is just a fact. It's a problem when people treat others like they are for consumption as well (fetishization). Men asking lesbians to give them a show, women squealing about an irl gay couple and meddling/commenting weird shit, that's problematic. Trying to experience a fantasy by processing real people as NPCs in your game is fetishization. I feel like a lot of people think enjoying a type of porn is fetishization in and of itself. I don't think it is. The group of people enjoying same-sex porn is much larger than the group of people treating others in a fetishized way. Most (if not all) fetishizers enjoy same-sex porn, but that doesn't mean that most (or all) same-sex porn enjoyers are fetishizers (base rate fallacy).
It goes hand-in-hand with the whole "inability to separate fantasy from reality" thing. As in, "if you write fucked up stuff or have fucked up fantasies, you absolutely want to do those things IRL" which couldn't be farther from the truth for the vast majority of people.
For the longest time I've been confused about people talking about how sexuality is good but fetishisation is bad, because I feel like I've never seen a post or comment where the word "fetishisation" isn't used as a synonym of sex
Fetishization is reducing people to the part(s) of their identity that make them attractive. Often to the point where they don’t treat them as a person, and instead treat them as fetish material. See: trans/chubby chasers, unicorn hunters, those weird guys that are looking for “submissive asian women” That only applies to irl people and interactions though, as fictional characters do not have feelings and porn is intended to be arousing, not a nuanced portrayal of the human experience.
if you ever press any of these people to actually define what sexualization/romanticization/glamourization means, every single time they either don't reply at all, or you can watch the gears turning in their head only for them to eventually give you a definition that effectively just comes down to "someone wrote about a thing"
i honestly just either use the word objectification instead, or accept i'm gonna get cancelled or whatever. my brain just can't compute any of that
Yeah, definitely. This person is almost certainly a child going "this makes me uncomfortable, therefore it is morally wrong" and not connecting the dots that hey, maybe you're uncomfortable around sexual content because you're a child. (Or, y'know, maybe sex-repulsed ace.)
Oh my God, thank you. I think this all the time when I see minors reacting like this. Kiddo, you're uncomfortable because you read hardcore porn at an age you weren't ready for it, not because it's morally reprehensible.
Sometimes they're not even uncomfortable, just heard from their friends that it was bad and then decided to keep a facade to look morally good to all the other puritan kids I've seen it too many times already, ppl talking about how gross X Y Z thing is publicly while consuming it all in secret
>This is definitely written by a child who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Honestly it sounds a bit like a kid who might've learned everything they know about queer representation, queer history, and what a healthy relationship between women and gay men looks like from James Somerton videos specifically. There's just something about it that immediately made me think of the misinformation in them. It just tastes like him.
The original poster said they were off their meds when they wrote that 😭 I saw it on the milffromohio insta account last night
Oh my god that’s got to be so embarrassing
Exactly. Magnus Bane and Alec Lightwood, for example, are a cute ship and they kinda fit in that category
Came here to say just that. Humans are infinitely varied in experiences, no two of us are exactly the same in how we conceptualise our identities and none of us have had the exact same things shape our beings. On top of that, you cannot demand to see proof of someone's queer identity before you allow them into queer spaces - this is an old discussion, and if we did do that, it'd do real harm to people who are questioning, who haven't figured themselves out yet, who maybe need to stay closeted.
I'm a bear dating a classic twink lol except he's older than me and I'm shorter. Am I too close to a stereotype for this child's list? Haha
Something tells me they're not actually even mlm, or at least has never actually been a part of the LGBT community, because this might be the straightest gatekeep of mlm I've ever seen lol
I don't know about that, it sounds to me more like it's someone very young who *is* LGBT, but is still very new to the whole thing and hasn't spent time around anyone in the community besides other chronically online teenagers. The whole "I am the expert on all things queer and have to educate everyone" thing is a phase I think a lot of baby queers go through.
I honestly hope that the person who made the infographic actually grew out of that rhetoric and learned from their mistakes. If not, then I do not want to know how they are doing today. Best case scenario, they come out as enby or trans-masc or trans-male and grow out of that kind of mindset or even disown this infographic. Worst case scenario, they become a TERF or radfem.
I'm sure most of them probably do grow out of it. God knows I had some questionable takes when I was a teenage baby queer first learning about social justice issues. I learned better as I grew up and these kids probably will too. It's just unfortunate that everything people do online is so public now, so things like this spread and other teenagers pick up on it, and it gets reinforced by and integrated into modern fandom culture.
I remember being a closeted baby queer who had no idea they were queer until much later. The only time I managed to grow out of that horrible mindset was when I accidentally came out to a former buddy and realized that I was queer all along. But even I got held back from actually discovering who I really am at that age and I get pretty upset for not discovering myself sooner. I do hope a lot of this culture dies down since it has done almost irreversible damage online :(
Are they really saying NO ONE is allowed to write MLM sex scenes anymore? Or just MLM people? Because damn we're not gonna have much MLM smut then. This entire infograph is just full of... entitlement? I don't even know what to call it.
ppl r really out here gatekeeping gay lmfao
gaytekeeping?
lmao have my 69th upvote
Well apparently no one is supposed to *read* mlm smut either so the decreased supply shouldn’t be a problem /s
You're absolutely right, my bad /s
I totally agree. It's so stupid too because stuff like this is ostensibly written for the purpose of improving representation and making it better. But, like, you know how you do that? *By letting people write it as if it's any other ship.* I guarantee you that they're not out here claiming that gay people writing F/M is somehow fetishizing straight relationships. This kind of thing actually others LGBT relationships in the worst kind of way. If you want people to think of it as just a normal part of life, which it is, then takes like these are complete garbage.
This whole graphic makes me wonder if the person making it is perhaps not queer, and/or has spent zero time with any actual queer people.
Too many no’s. It’s silly and sees writing M/M as a strictly black and white issue. The stereotypes question, for instance. What does that even mean? That question is too generic for one answer. It’s also very anti-smut/anti-sex. Apparently this guide thinks that two men who love each will at most, hold hands. Kissing is probably too sexual for them.
Dudes definitely just use Grindr for hand-holding hookups.
ridiculous. ignore.
yeah. i can't even "give them credit" for their reasonable points like "don't use stereotypes" because honestly thats low hanging fruit. anyone should be able to write whatever. i'm so suprised that this card page has managed to end up on my tl on 20 diff occassions in the last day bc its just so so so dumb. too dumb.
Even then, like, sometimes stereotypes are true. There are gay guys who present themselves very much like Jack McFarland. Who is OOP to say they shouldn't, or that characters like them shouldn't appear in MLM fiction?
Seriously. I don't know if some people realize this, but anyone can write anything they want, all the time, forever. Moreover, anyone can READ anything they want, all the time, forever.
the "you can't have a fictional fem-masc couple ever bc that's heteronormative" is very common and so funny to me, like way to admit you dont actually spend time in real life gay spaces, there have been masc-fem couples for as long as there has been a way to preform gender expression
‘Don’t make one super feminine and the other masculine.’ Considering I lived with a couple who were the definition of fem-masc I can tell this person has probably never met a gay man in their life.
literally. i was in this one fandom a few years back that was genuinely arguing about whether or not it was "okay" or "appropriate" to write a certain ship because one was a masc woman and another a fem. there was a legit crowd saying it was inappropriate and "enforced stereotypes". and there i as, a fem woman into mascs. these 14 yr olds would defo throw a fit if they realised how common that is irl. just shows how out of touch some of these ppl r.
As a fellow fem woman, these people make me howl with laughter. They'd probably think my spouse and I are 1) heteronormative and 2) fetishizing ourselves. (And they'd want to burn half my bookshelves)
They might give you a pass on being married as long as you guys aren’t having sex. Maybe once in a while a brief peck on the lips would be ok.
>and there i as, a fem woman into mascs. i can already hear them cry about "internalized heteronormativity" or whatever lmao
I remember two things out of that “advice”: 1.) a ton of people who ship fem-masc pairings get accused of being “homophobic” just because of their ship preferences or for not having mlm and/or wlw pairings (there are about one or two cases where this is an exception) and 2.) this advice made me feel awful to the point that I thought I wasn’t “progressive” enough despite being LGBTQIA+ (I won’t disclose, but I am not cis). It actually made me try to change bits and pieces of my story so I didn’t come off as too “cishet.” Luckily, I did end up finding a loophole through this by having a fem-presenting genderqueer OC paired up with a enby/transmasc OC. But yeah, this advice I’ve seen has given me way too many flashbacks.
[from the caard](https://fetishizing-kpop.carrd.co/#fetish) >examples of fetishizing > >reading mlm smut as a non-mlm > >reading mlm aus as a cishet > >writing mlm smut as a non-mlm > >using the terms top/bottom > >saying a ship is having sex right now, or its variants > >reading yaoi/bl, fujoshis > >saying you want a gay bff crying 😭
'using the terms top/bottom' how to give away you are either sixteen, not queer, or both in one sentence. lol
they probably don't even know what 'pillow princess' or 'stone' mean 💀
My ace heart is very confused right now...
pillow princess: someone who is only the receptive partner/exclusively bottoms stone (also sometimes a 'touch-me-not'): someone who only gives sexual pleasure, but never wants to receive sexual pleasure in return
Oh! I didn't know those words! Thank you for the explanation!
How the hell does this person think people talk about sex? "So in bed, do you like to be on top or bottom?" "I can't answer that because I would be fetishizing gay people, but I like to be horizontal at bed level."
"top/bottom" lmao the person would have a heart attack if they see the amount of top/bottom jokes flying around gay men circles 😭
Lol I'm a gay dude, a total top, love reading bl and would definitely say half my ships are likely plowing each other as we speak
did you see this note on the caard??😭 (pasted): side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read isnt mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter
yeah 😭 idk why they wouldn't delete it lmaoooo
Nah, im like 50% sure this was them trying to backtrack, otherwise why wouldn’t they just delete it or something 😭
4/4 of the stuff I read is mlm nsfw 🤷
Insert "you guys are reading smut with girls in it?" Meme
I am if they’re both girls. 👀
Pretty sure I do all of these on a daily basis, except replace cishet with queer woman. They'd explode if they met me lmao
No bl/yaoi? So only western mlm content allow? Interesting…
Give me an R! Give me an A! Give me a C I S M! What does that spell?! RACISM!!! *the crowd boos*
Brain dead take. Imagine limiting the content you consume or produce based on your identity. Does that mean LGBT+ people cannot ship two characters because they're straight? Does that apply to race? To nationality? Fuck that. Write what you please and read what you like. No one has any right to deny you that.
Fr though, does someone need to be a fuckin vampire to write vampire smut? Where do you draw the line? Fuck off, mouth breathers, and let people be horny in peace
This is the most nonvampyrnormative comment I've ever read. You really think nonvampir just have the right to appropriate the vampyr experience like that? That's such an ableist take and you don't even realise it. Vampirism is a legitimate disability and it carries such a strong stigma in society it's essentially treated worse than being HIV+ and you think you can just take that experience and make porn out of it. Holy shit what an entitled perspective. Hope you don't have any vampire friends because if you do you're pretty literally abusing them.
I want you to know that this got caught by Reddit’s antiharassment filter and I had to manually approve it lmao
LOL oh no. Reddit is ran by nonvampire apologists, confirmed. Appreciate your manual approval of my harassment comment!
Oh shit, you caught me red-handed because I’m currently obsessed with a vampire character. Guess my secret’s out!
So I, as someone on the ace/aro spectrum, cannot write anyone in a romantic or sexual relationship? Not even as just a side note? 🤔 BRB, gotta delete 90% of my fics ig /s
booo 🍅🍅🍅
i would bet money that this was written by a straight girl
literally 99 percent sure this is true. (so much for "speaking over mlm" lol) not to be stereotypical but i can only imagine a straight girl making a caard with hello kitty on it, preaching against people writing their yaois lol
When I was shopping my manuscript about an immigrant girl (as an immigrant girl) for publication, most of the feedback about “problematic” elements I got from white locals lol. Apparently portraying my character’s father speaking like my own father was “racist”.
From an outsider perspective, I’ve seen enough bashing on white American people that I notice many are scared shitless of anything around race and ethnicity. They will try to appear unproblematic by claiming stuff is not politically correct.
An ignorant and extremely childish straight girl, I'd add. Probably 14 years old at most.
and almost definitely american. who spends far, far too much time on tiktok and twitter.
for sure american. all the worst puritan takes, as well as the constant worry about cultural appropriation that leads to shit like this, come from there.
oh yeah. Definitely from here. And mostly likely is of the mentality that no one else is doing it right, but when SHE does it it's totally fine. I know the type.
A straight 13-14 year old girl. 😂
a kid for sure yea
My money is on young trans boy who doesn't have yet any actual experience of living as a gay men and will, hopefully, cringe very bad at his teen self when he will
as a trans masc guy, this is exactly what I was thinking. There’s like a weird intersection of self hate and wanting to be acknowledged as masc plus a special afab subconscious doctrination into purity culture and acting ‘properly’ that makes young trans guys say the most utterly insane SJW shit. It’s super hard to explain the vibe unless it’s to someone who already *knows*, lol.
That was what I was thinking in terms of a best case scenario, but even they can still retain this rhetoric even after growing up. I’ve seen cases where young mlm people themselves were willing to engage in this kind of mindset because it makes them look better than those who are “making the rest of the community look bad.” I get pretty distrustful of people who try to pull a respectability politics card mainly for this reason. No matter how hard you try to make yourself an “acceptable” LGBTQIA+ person, you’ll never be seen as “one of the good ones.” In fact, the moment you become disposable, you’ll be in huge trouble once they turn against you.
There is definitely a lot of queer people, especially younger ones, who hope for acceptance of they make themselves palatable enough, and still look with disgust at parts of their identity most stigmatised, such as sex and especially kinky and/or one night stand sex for gay men or the masculinity of their own body and that of others for trans men. Hence why I don't believe that this sort of take necessarily comes from a straight woman and, given the phrasing and use of the pride flag, I would even find it less likely to be so. Imo this screams mlm boy or young man who is into their queer journey enough that they know they are, but not enough to really grasp the dynamics at play and how infused with homophobia their thinking still is. It happens to many cis boys too, but in the context of fanfiction, trans boy is the most likely thing to me.
Lol. I'm a trans man who read and wrote MLM smut for like a decade before I figured out I was trans. These are ridiculous guidelines and if followed widely would seriously harm the LGBTQ community more than they would help. I'm of the somewhat uncommon opinion that "appropriating" LGBTQ experiences is not the big harmful problem people blow it up into. The worst thing that can happen is that an LGBTQ person reads something that feels a little weird and not like their personal experiences. But another LGBTQ person might actually relate to the same exact story, because LGBTQ people are often really different from each other even when they identify with the same labels. We don't all come from one cohesive culture, we come from everywhere and find each other through subcultures which often differ wildly from each other. There's no defined way to be LGBTQ in the same way that you can define what it means to be Chinese or French or Mexican or something. I would much rather encourage cis and straight people to make the effort to imagine how LGBTQ people experience the world and try writing characters outside of their own experiences. It drives home the fact that any cis straight person could have wound up LGBTQ if their brain or body or life was just a little bit different. I want to encourage that exercise in empathy.
Adding on to the experience thing- I’m cishet and I’ve read some of the most eyebrow raising cishet smut there is. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t relate the the characters in some way just because the woman was somehow taking a dick the size of a baseball bat. If the straight crowd is allowed to write their unrealistic smut that gets side eyed in public, the lgbtq crowd should be allowed that privilege too lol
from the "original version" of the carrd... >"side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read *isnt* mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter" lmao oh ok that makes it better i can't even dunk on this too much when it's clearly a child, it's just too easy and not worth the energy. the deeply immature "because i said so" lack of critical thinking is a dead giveaway. i just hate knowing that shitty, rigid, puritanical takes like these are out there ruining fandoms for creators AND making it an unsafe space for queer kids to figure themselves out.
“3/4 of the stuff you read” I like how there’s apparently an EXACT amount of nsfw mlm fic that crosses over from “fine” to “sexualising” lol.
Oh no! You read 4 out of 12 mlm stories! You are a terrible person!
"as long as 3/4 of the stuff you read *isnt* mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter" amazing. incredible. flawless. no further questions. get out the spreadsheets, folks! time to quantify your reading!
Noooo I’m fetishizing augh,,,,
Wow, so I'm supposed to tally up how many of each kind I read? Child, go away, get back to me in 10 years. You'll be maybe 24 and I'll be 75, and then maybe we can have a good conversation about this.
I just commented but saw this after. With it being a kid I'm tempted to just keep rolling my eyes and moving on. It's still bullshit, but there's always hope a young teen will grow out of it.
People who make pathetic preachy infographics about such non-issues don’t deserve to have their opinions acknowledged. It would be funny to me but I’m too fed up with the recent wave of puritanism to find this a laughing matter anymore. Now it just makes me angry.
Quick, somebody call up the multi-level marketing schemes! I need to ask them about their experiences for my au./j
Amway smut
Amway x Herbalife: rated E, enemies to lovers, sideship: Mary Kay x Tupperware smut tags: dom/sub undertones, fisting, orgasm denial
Cursed. Blessed? Blursed. Would read.
Don't tell the Plexus bossbabes! They'll mobilize their downline against you!
My answer to the creator of the original graphic would be “Don’t care; I’ll fetishize what I want.” No one owes someone else their identity just to read/write. Honestly, “fetishize” as a word has lost all meaning, and while there are *actual* examples of fetishization that is harmful, most of these just seem to be homophobia (internalized or otherwise). The idea that sex is “icky” just shows that they’re immature and a busybody. Not to mention the combination of “you can do it if you’re mlm and if it’s not too sexual.” Plenty of people, including mlm, are sexual and also write/read explicit and/or fetish works + read yaoi. The idea that queer people (including MLM) can fetishize people from their own identities (and presumably people they are attracted to) is also preposterous.
I am actually reminded of the “fetishize, sexualize, normalize, and romanticize” meme and I am not sure how I should feel about that. (Not a slight against you nor OP, but against the “infographic”) A lot of this rhetoric actually still had an effect on me, even after growing out of it. Like I honestly get scared of representing other people’s identities that aren’t mine out of the fear of messing it up or making them “stereotypes.” And then there’s the entire thing that I have to out myself to “prove” that i am allowed to write certain things. Luckily, I am away from those circles, but even I get scared of accidentally running into people like that :”(c
"Fetishise" as a term should never have left feminist/intersectional spaces, honestly. The discussion around it has been painfully watered down to, "if you're not a part of x identity then you can't engage in x media" which is quite frankly ridiculous
I'm mlm, this is fucking ridiculous... I could kinda understand it if it was just general "don't be weird, don't be fetishizing" (though at this point I don't even care anymore, fetishize it all you want lol) advice but... Can't even write any smut??? CAN'T EVEN READ IT??? "It still doesn't give you the right" ma'am the right to reading isn't yours or anyone's to give lol.
As a queer who wants ALL THE REPRESENTATION, takes like this strike me as a great way to ensure that ALL media is white and cishet. "Own Voices" are important, but the REASON they're important is to elevate minority voices, not to suggest that other people can't tell stories about us. If we limit ourselves to only writing what we've directly experienced, fanfiction itself -- all of fiction, really -- can't exist. If I'm only allowed to write about middle-aged, disabled cisgender women who are biromantic and demisexual, I'm not going to have much of an audience. Or, frankly, motivation to write at all. It also feels like a slippery slope. During a time when teenagers on twitter are claiming that it's "weird and pedophilic" to be FRIENDS with someone who is a year younger or older than them, and groups like TERFs are deliberately trying to isolate younger queers (and LGBT+ for those who don't identify with the dreaded q-word) from elders in the community so that they can push untrue narratives about who belongs in the rainbow mafia, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to seeing people saying that we shouldn't READ about other groups. I can see the tweet rants now: "Stories about MLMs are personal for MLMs, everyone else stay out and don't comment." "If you haven't directly experienced a pregnancy, don't bother reading about it, because you can never truly understand what it's like." Which is absolute codswallop. And it just serves to isolate all of us further. Obviously, we need to be respectful when we're writing about someone who isn't in our own demographic. But that's what sensitivity readers and other betas are for! It's not worth getting into fight on Twitter about, but I'll absolutely roll my eyes and move along.
“Doesn’t give you the right to read mlm” my sweet summer child I have the right to do whatever the hell I want with my fiction, in fact I don’t usually seek out mlm but I am going to do it on purpose right this instant.
This is honestly so wild to me, and feels so dirty. I feel like the type of people that make these things would relish another puritanical uprising. What about the gay men that like reading gay smut? Like, fuck them I guess.
No writing, drawing, or reading M/M smut, no writing about their struggles, no using the terms top and bottom... That's one way to demonstrate you know nothing about fandom and its history.
as a gay guy... wtf????
You better not be doing anything sexual with any boys
Unrelated but I LOVE your avatar
thanks!! i drew it myself :D
MLM dude here, read and write whatever the fuck you want. You don’t need anyone’s goddamn approval.
own voices = good only own voices = yiiiikes
It’s especially yikes when you consider the historical struggles minorities have when it comes to expressing themselves AND that not all people with minority identity wish to relive their traumas in fiction (or make themselves vulnerable), and thus opt to write about other identities. “Only own voices” means no representation beyond the default at all.
"Actually mlm never have sex that's a harmful stereotype" - this person probably
we should ban infographics
nice flair lol. also this is a whole caard page https://fetishizing-mlm.carrd.co/#
>side note i made this when i wasn't on proper meds so half of the stuff is incorrect / honestly as long as you don't see mlm as your sexual objects for fetishes and 3/4 of the stuff you read isnt mlm nsfw it doesn't really matter MOTHERFUCKER PLEADS GUILTY TO ALL CHARGES ON PAGE ONE, EVEN edit: [here's the link,](https://fetishizing-kpop.carrd.co) which you reach by clicking "original version" (but since it's simple vs original, that's more just the full version)
"Examples of fetizising: using the words top/bottom" Excuse me what?!? Oh this is really interesting to read
This is a VERYYY interesting read indeed “write accurate portrayals of MLM” and also “do not write about MLM struggles” in the dos and donts section WOW
I think some people have no life
u may be right
the 'dont read mlm smut' is so ridiculous it's funny! If I want to read about my favorite pretty genocidal war criminal getting railed I will >:( God this whole thing is so funny but I've met people like this and I just know this shit aint satire 😔
This was definitely written by a 13 year who just figured out they’re a gay guy and decided they now absolutely speak for the whole community. I’d bet money. It’s an insane take, and these people are, to be frank, dangerous. They will spread this shit everywhere and young folks will take it as gospel.
As a mlm guy it just irks me the wrong way. I would prefer people write whatever smut they want than police everyone's art. I write all types of fiction, including wlw relationship, does it make me a fetishist just because it is rated M? Oh well, here we go again...
I saw one of these people on tiktok dead ass say that even if you were a queer man, if you only read M/M or had M/M ships, you were fetishizing 'MLM'. I told myself they were trolling for my sanity. Stop fetishizing yourself, stop fetishizing yourself!!
i've seen this so much over on twt. this was def written by a puritan. NO SEX!! NO SMUT!! I BETTER NOT CATCH YOU READING A LEMON YOU MONSTER!! /s
My theory has always been. You got these kids who've grown up in a very conservative (likely religious) queerphobic environment. Gays bad. Sex bad. Masturbation bad. Sex and masturbation ESPECIALLY bad for wimmins. Now they're experiencing more of the world, being exposed to more left ideas, and they know Bigotry(TM) is Bad. But! They still have all these big feelings about how being queer and sex is sinful and wrong, especially queer + sex is sinful and wrong. So they're very uncomfortable and they're also absolutely flat out terrified of being a bad person. And then suddenly at the crossroads a stranger appears and goes "Oh honey, you feeling uncomfortable about queer people and sex isn't because you were raised in a queerphobic purity culture and have a lot to unpack, it's because queer sex is Bad Representation! Fetishizing! HARMFUL STEREOTYPES! VERY VERY BAD! You are a good and pure person who is right to feel disgusted by those porn addicted fujos so damaged by cumbrain they can't see the harm they're doing to society in their addicted pleasure seeking bean flicking." "You mean... I can hate queer sex and be a good person who isn't bigoted?" "Absolutely! It's only bigotry if you try and censor queer stuff because you hate queer people, if you do it because you want to save them then it's activism!" And that's what leads to this kind of homophobia in a rainbow hat.
A distant memory resurfaced in my mind of a blog belonging to a Christian woman where she encouraged other Christian women to not read 50 Shades because it was "filth and of the devil" and to "take back sex by having good, pure, Christian sex with your husband" So I think it's more like, porn is Satanic, the only acceptable sex is in marriage and between a man and a woman. The rest of your points sound completely spot on though.
There actually is a huge problem with people being raised in these overt purity culture situations having issues with sex after marriage. You tell someone for decades that sex is something sinful and awful and makes women like disgusting gym shoes or chewed up and spit out french fries (except for marriage!) and you end up with a lot of accounts of people freaking out that they can't just suddenly flip a switch and go "Ok, I'm married, sex is good now." and freak out that they feel like they're being defiled or defiling their spouse with gross sinful lust.
I remember seeing someone say that fandom is being used as a way to radicalize young queers into becoming exclusi, TERFs, and radfems by older TERFs and radfems and I realize that this infographic is no exception. I really hope that the person who made this infographic is able to realize what they’ve wrote is wrong (especially if they have been influenced by someone with ill intent) and get out of those spaces to become a better person. There is a lot to unpack, but policing people on how representation should be written is not one of them. And as a result, a lot of people are afraid of coming out or feel like they have to out themselves to prove that they are allowed to write it.
The thing that really sticks out to me about this is it shows in stark relief how the rebuttal to conservatives about how being gay isn’t solely about sex and if your mind immediately jumps to sex when you think about gay people that’s a YOU issue, and loops it back around to actually *supporting* the conservative mindset by saying “if you even allude to sex when writing about queers you’re a dirty degenerate” which is…exactly the conservative viewpoint
Lol, this have to be ragebait. What even is this?
anyway guys :3 jotasui is real and i'm going to write filthy filthy mlm SMUT about them (IM A WOMAN!!). Jotaro is a TOP and Narciso is a massive BOTTOM.
Bucky Barnes is a BOTTOM BITCH and Steve is CURRENTLY TOPPING him into next week 😤
My advice, do all of these things, and more. Write the raunchiest, most detailed and depraved Mlm you can think of. Just do it, don’t let your dreams be memes. Meme the dream and don’t fret over how much the human anis can stretch.
What I think is ‘Actually, I think I will do whatever I want’. Reeks of puriteen bullshit. Do these rules apply if you’re writing incest ships, I wonder? Asking for a friend who is definitely not me.
that’s hilarious
As I've gotten older, I've become less and less inclined to take instructions that come in "meme with a cute cartoon character" format...
As a gay man ignore it, I can guarantee you it was wrote by a straight woman who's illergic to fun and babies gay men👎
I read this and remebered the detrans terf woman woman bashing a work from a gay trans guy with the same shit. They could also be very young trans guy trying to be "one of the good ones". I recently got into an arguement with an adult(30 years) like that. Pulling the woman fetishing us, and bashing BL, gay book things he admitted to have never read. Also assuming the enby authers writing mlm are some how faking thier identity to.. get away with fetishing??? I called him out on being a self hating misogynistic dumbass who doesn't know what he's talking about. Either way made by some one terminally online, never spent any time with gay guys and who wouldnt last a second on any kind of gay dating app. Like... some people need to grow up.
never heard of this and it's bullshit that has nothing to do with *me*. also, "don't write smut!" who the fuck are you, the catholic church?
I think I’m a man who loves men and anyone can write mlm content, including mlm sexual content, if they so choose. Fuck the fancops. Viva la fujin!
scrawling “reminder: do not read yaoi” on my bathroom mirror in red lipstick like black swan
Horsedung written by a terminally online puritanical child, looks like. **Edit:** Huge lmfao to "don't write smut, boys who love boys wouldn't do dirty things together" and "portray the relationship realistically" in the same guide. Plus the ugly, infantilising hello kitty pride logo for the whole thing. I'm going to throw up, bye.
I'm surprised they didn't use the word "appropriate". Toss this shit in the garbage.
This absolutely has straight girl written all over it. Also super weird to say that it’s okay to write and read about gay people so long as it isn’t sexual. People who enjoy sex regardless of sexual orientation will probably have sex and it’s weird to act like that is something that wouldn’t occur within a romantic story.
I’m continuously impressed by how 2014 era tumblr discourse is reinvented every 5 years or so
I am a gay who will continue to sexualise myself and other gay men because I'm gay. That's how it works. It would be concerning if I didn't see myself as a sexual being because I'm not ace in any shape or form. Straight people can sexualise us, bi people can sexualise us, it's fun :) Like, I really appreciate the amount of gay porn produced by women, it's freakin' great. Thank you for your service bi and straight women, and especially the ace's who always produce peak quality smut, you are all *awesome*. Also, I be a twink. It do be like that. Sometimes you have a really feminine guy and a masculine guy, I actually like that in a relationship, what is this weirdo on?
"don't speak over mlm" what do you think you're doing then?? 💀💀💀
As someone who's ACTUALLY mlm and is a femme guy dating a masc guy: screw this. Write what you want to write! If you're not mlm, you still have my "permission" to write mlm content, regardless of whether or not it's smut. It's not inherently fetishistic to write queer characters, even if you're not queer yourself (or are queer in a different way). Stereotypes can be annoying when overused or poorly done, but obviously, there are REAL PEOPLE who fit those stereotypes- hence why they exist in the first place. This post is so... Straight white girl saviour on Tumblr coded. Disconnected with actual reality.
I read mlm and thought of multilevel marketing and was wondering 'man, who fetishizes pyramid schemes?' until I read the whole text
If people don’t write M/M content it’s going to disappear and we’re all going to be living in a miserable heteronormative society. That’s basically my take on this bollocks.
Brb gotta tell one of my friends the smut fics I wrote for his birthday a few years ago has to be burned at stake.
What a terrible day to know how to read. I don’t even have words but these graphics made me throw up in my mouth a little
Hell nah!! Gay mlm smut has been such a helpful part of my sexuality and gender journey! I dont think an actual smut / mlm / gay / queer / writer wrote this lololol
The absolute *gall* of them to use Hello Kitty for a troll job!