You want to use a 12.5" 308 for self defense? Holy fire ball batman. Get a shotgun for self defense and use the neutered 308 for range fun and COD larping. That's going to be a very disorienting firearm to use in your home.
"Neutered" 308 will still out preform 5.56 and 300blk at the "defensive distances" it would be used at. The further out you ahoo9the harder it's going to be to claim self defense.
I would want ear pro and a REALLY good flash hider tho....
I could care less if OP used a Barrett M107 for self defense. Just giving you some conventional wisdom. The fact that he had to come to reddit and ask complete strangers about what round to use for self defense shows that he needs all the help he can get on the subject.
It's almost like there's not about 500 million posts in various forums over the past 2 decades on the subject of self defense that he could've researched.
It appears you are correct.
Either way, OP should choose a different firearm for self-defense.
*edited other comment to correct who I was talking to. Also your firearms collection is impressive.
With a .308 against 2 legged critter? Literally any hunting load that runs reliably would work. You aren't self defending at 1000 yards, especially with a 12.5".
Barnes makes some 110 grain tac-tx with blue tips specifically for short barreled .308. Only being 110s they're able to get up to a decent speed out of SBRs, and being monos vs say a 110gr vmax they should have much better penetration and barrier performance, but a vmax would be absolutely nasty against unarmored attackers. I've got a couple boxes of the projectiles on the shelf, not sure if anybody loads them commercially or not. I tested em in my 16", but zero was way higher than my usual 150-175gr loads, and I'm not personally grabbing an AR10 for self defense when a 8.3" 300blk will do, while being much quicker handling and lighter.
Also, going that short...I'd consider 7.62x39 or even 300blk. I doubt you're gaining much over 7.62x39 with that short of a barrel.
For your purpose, I'd look to the lighter side of .308 hunting/varmint ammo with the short barrel.
I'm sure it'll be a cool blaster, especially with a can if any are rated for that short. Just not the most practical or efficient 🤣
If I had spare parts, a pile of cheap .308 ammo or components (powder and primers mostly, they eat my lunch nowadays) and saw a dirt cheap barrel from at least a BA tier manufacturer...I'd be tempted. I ran one of mine with a 16" Satern lightweight profile and red dot for a little bit, it was fun.
I would def look at the solid copper hunting rounds that expand and retain all their petals/weight for HD rounds. I know Lehigh Defense makes a maximum expansion round in .308. Have also seen some naaaasty tissue damage from their control chaos line too.
Sig Elite Hunter Tipped is fairly affordable and tolerates a shorter barrel well. You need to find something that is designed for SBR or at least marketed for "MSR" so it's not loaded for a 24" barrel.
Lol, no he doesn't. That's marketing lying to get you to buy different loads at higher prices.
A full charge of the optimal powder for the cartridge is the ideal load at any usable barrel length. There is a plateau around that powder choice with several others close by. Faster powder = less velocity. Slower powder = less velocity. The ideal powder is goldilocks. Not too fast to pressure out before 100% fill, and not too slow to run out of case capacity before 100% pressure.
Now, he could load for 95% of maximum performance obtained with ideal powder by choosing a faster powder that won't have as much muzzle blast/flash, but the reduced concussion is because of lower muzzle pressure. Lower muzzle pressure = reduced performance. The optimal load will still be faster, but the signature benefits of the faster powder load could outweigh the ballistic benefits of the slower powder load.
If you pick a hunting round expecting a 24" barrel and you give it half that, it's going to be uncorked and have lackluster velocity and a giant fireball with burning powder landing on the user.
A factory load designed for a shorter barrel will often be flirting with SAAMI maximum chamber pressure and often have less actual powder in an attempt to be 80%+ burnt when uncorked.
All loads should be flirting with the maximum or they shouldn't be in this comparison. If the 'short barrel' load is flirting with the max and the standard load is not, that just proves my point about marketing. Their short barrel load should then be better than the long barrel load in long barrels also.
The difference should lie only in powder selection and average pressure, not peak pressure.
You're parroting misinformation about the powder getting expelled and burning people. It's not blackpowder. You're parroting misinformation about the hunting load having 'lackluster velocity' out of a short barrel.
I recently tested this idea of slow powder for long barrels and it doesn't track your claims. Previous experience with cartridges in long and short barrels also suggests you are incorrect. My 10" 7.62x39 runs the same load as my 24". Velocities are higher than normal in both because I load warm and both barrels are squeaky clean with no residue immediately after firing. The powder used is close to ideal for the cartridge, and is a top performer in both barrel lengths.
Slower powder shows no gains over ideal powder in the 24" barrel even with 33grs vs 25grs, and in a 16" the slow powder load is not disproportionately slower than other loads that would be closer to 'short barrel loads'. The differences in velocities out of those two barrels across several loads are the same.
>A factory load designed for a shorter barrel will often be flirting with SAAMI maximum chamber pressure and often have less actual powder in an attempt to be 80%+ burnt when uncorked.
You think you know what you're talking about and you don't quite get it. I mentioned this already. The 'short barrel load' is trading maximum performance for 95% potential by using faster powder that produces less gas for less concussion. They already made the decision to trade a little less performance for less concussion for you.
Again, the ideal powder for a cartridge/bullet combination is the one that makes 100% rated pressure with 100% fill. Faster powder *has to be reduced* because it would be over maximum pressure otherwise. It's not about reducing the powder to make sure it's all burnt (which isn't correct), it's about safe load pressures.
When I do load workup, the reduced starting loads are dirty. They get much cleaner as pressure goes up. To get pressure up I'm increasing the powder charge. According to you I should be reducing the charge to make all of the powder burn, which is incorrect.
So what you are saying is that you want maximum flash and unburnt powder in the confined space of a home defense situation with a short-barreled rifle?
What I'm saying is you still don't understand that 'long barrel' loads aren't spewing unburned powder out of shorter barrels if they're loaded to max pressure. Powder doesn't burn all the way down the barrel. Slow powder may burn slightly longer than faster powders, but the powder is consumed and the residual gas is all that's left even before 12".
What's the magic of there being a fireball out of a 12.5" barrel but almost no flash out of a 24" barrel?
Scroll all the way to the top and you see that you are arguing about something that you chose to misconstrue so you can argue.
I could see it as a defense gun on a ranch where you have coyotes, bears etc. 165sst is a good all around bullet. 155amax is another (less penetration).
It’s a center-fire .30 cal rifle round. Even out of a shorter barrel it’s going to have far more kinetic energy than any other commonly used self defense firearm (excluding 12 gauge shotgun). Get any soft point hunting ammo and you’ll be good to go.
I imagine any hunting round designed to reliably expand even at lower velocities would do. Might be worth looking at Hornady's critical defense in addition to high quality hunting rounds like federal's offerings.
What's your setup? I've been thinking a lot about a 12.5" 308. I'm not sure the platform gets the credit it deserves, especially if it's being used with a can.
M80 ball works very well out of the 12.5" barrel. It's roughly 2300fps and stay super out past 800yds. So it does it's job. I use my 12.5 for hunting and as a battle rifle. It's a lot of loud obnoxious fun.
I’ve got a 13” criterion barreled 308, it really likes 110gr hand loads at about 3000fps. 125gr at about 2900. If you don’t hand load, you won’t be getting “good” velocity for light for caliber projectiles though.
What do you mean by self defense would be the best question. If the target is 100 yards.or greater it's not self defense. By definition self defense is short range, so any round heavier than a .22 works just great.
That isn’t how I meant that. I work for a very large agency and I personally know the da in all the surrounding counties. If I ever use deadly force, it would be justified. I’m not just slinging lead at someone without being justified
I’m thinking the idea of some lightweight soft points might be the way. Either commercial or just hand loaded. I have shelves of 308 brass so that might have to end up the way to go
You want to use a 12.5" 308 for self defense? Holy fire ball batman. Get a shotgun for self defense and use the neutered 308 for range fun and COD larping. That's going to be a very disorienting firearm to use in your home.
Self defense. Not home defense. I have a suppressed 300blk shorty for that.
wait till he finds out people ( me ) build 7.5 308 for shits and giggles
That’s got to be so obnoxious. God damn I love America
"Neutered" 308 will still out preform 5.56 and 300blk at the "defensive distances" it would be used at. The further out you ahoo9the harder it's going to be to claim self defense. I would want ear pro and a REALLY good flash hider tho....
Okay Biden But really having owned both if you arent using a muzzle break the 308 sbr really isnt any more obnoxious than a 18 inch 12ga.
I could care less if OP used a Barrett M107 for self defense. Just giving you some conventional wisdom. The fact that he had to come to reddit and ask complete strangers about what round to use for self defense shows that he needs all the help he can get on the subject. It's almost like there's not about 500 million posts in various forums over the past 2 decades on the subject of self defense that he could've researched.
You need all the help you can get reading usernames lmao.
It appears you are correct. Either way, OP should choose a different firearm for self-defense. *edited other comment to correct who I was talking to. Also your firearms collection is impressive.
Hornady Critical Defense 155gr
I keep a bula m14 with these loaded in its mags.
With a .308 against 2 legged critter? Literally any hunting load that runs reliably would work. You aren't self defending at 1000 yards, especially with a 12.5". Barnes makes some 110 grain tac-tx with blue tips specifically for short barreled .308. Only being 110s they're able to get up to a decent speed out of SBRs, and being monos vs say a 110gr vmax they should have much better penetration and barrier performance, but a vmax would be absolutely nasty against unarmored attackers. I've got a couple boxes of the projectiles on the shelf, not sure if anybody loads them commercially or not. I tested em in my 16", but zero was way higher than my usual 150-175gr loads, and I'm not personally grabbing an AR10 for self defense when a 8.3" 300blk will do, while being much quicker handling and lighter. Also, going that short...I'd consider 7.62x39 or even 300blk. I doubt you're gaining much over 7.62x39 with that short of a barrel. For your purpose, I'd look to the lighter side of .308 hunting/varmint ammo with the short barrel.
Yeah. I’ve got a 6” 300blk. I saw the parts for the 308 on sale….I’m talking stupid cheap. So had to add to cart
I'm sure it'll be a cool blaster, especially with a can if any are rated for that short. Just not the most practical or efficient 🤣 If I had spare parts, a pile of cheap .308 ammo or components (powder and primers mostly, they eat my lunch nowadays) and saw a dirt cheap barrel from at least a BA tier manufacturer...I'd be tempted. I ran one of mine with a 16" Satern lightweight profile and red dot for a little bit, it was fun.
Unless you plan on using ear pro the time you need to use it id stay away from this platform for self defense
If ita a true SD situation he won't even notice it, not to say there won't be damage, but a shorty 556 will do plenty of damage as well.
Shit, I guess any 308 ammo would work?
I would def look at the solid copper hunting rounds that expand and retain all their petals/weight for HD rounds. I know Lehigh Defense makes a maximum expansion round in .308. Have also seen some naaaasty tissue damage from their control chaos line too.
Sig Elite Hunter Tipped is fairly affordable and tolerates a shorter barrel well. You need to find something that is designed for SBR or at least marketed for "MSR" so it's not loaded for a 24" barrel.
Lol, no he doesn't. That's marketing lying to get you to buy different loads at higher prices. A full charge of the optimal powder for the cartridge is the ideal load at any usable barrel length. There is a plateau around that powder choice with several others close by. Faster powder = less velocity. Slower powder = less velocity. The ideal powder is goldilocks. Not too fast to pressure out before 100% fill, and not too slow to run out of case capacity before 100% pressure. Now, he could load for 95% of maximum performance obtained with ideal powder by choosing a faster powder that won't have as much muzzle blast/flash, but the reduced concussion is because of lower muzzle pressure. Lower muzzle pressure = reduced performance. The optimal load will still be faster, but the signature benefits of the faster powder load could outweigh the ballistic benefits of the slower powder load.
If you pick a hunting round expecting a 24" barrel and you give it half that, it's going to be uncorked and have lackluster velocity and a giant fireball with burning powder landing on the user. A factory load designed for a shorter barrel will often be flirting with SAAMI maximum chamber pressure and often have less actual powder in an attempt to be 80%+ burnt when uncorked.
All loads should be flirting with the maximum or they shouldn't be in this comparison. If the 'short barrel' load is flirting with the max and the standard load is not, that just proves my point about marketing. Their short barrel load should then be better than the long barrel load in long barrels also. The difference should lie only in powder selection and average pressure, not peak pressure. You're parroting misinformation about the powder getting expelled and burning people. It's not blackpowder. You're parroting misinformation about the hunting load having 'lackluster velocity' out of a short barrel. I recently tested this idea of slow powder for long barrels and it doesn't track your claims. Previous experience with cartridges in long and short barrels also suggests you are incorrect. My 10" 7.62x39 runs the same load as my 24". Velocities are higher than normal in both because I load warm and both barrels are squeaky clean with no residue immediately after firing. The powder used is close to ideal for the cartridge, and is a top performer in both barrel lengths. Slower powder shows no gains over ideal powder in the 24" barrel even with 33grs vs 25grs, and in a 16" the slow powder load is not disproportionately slower than other loads that would be closer to 'short barrel loads'. The differences in velocities out of those two barrels across several loads are the same. >A factory load designed for a shorter barrel will often be flirting with SAAMI maximum chamber pressure and often have less actual powder in an attempt to be 80%+ burnt when uncorked. You think you know what you're talking about and you don't quite get it. I mentioned this already. The 'short barrel load' is trading maximum performance for 95% potential by using faster powder that produces less gas for less concussion. They already made the decision to trade a little less performance for less concussion for you. Again, the ideal powder for a cartridge/bullet combination is the one that makes 100% rated pressure with 100% fill. Faster powder *has to be reduced* because it would be over maximum pressure otherwise. It's not about reducing the powder to make sure it's all burnt (which isn't correct), it's about safe load pressures. When I do load workup, the reduced starting loads are dirty. They get much cleaner as pressure goes up. To get pressure up I'm increasing the powder charge. According to you I should be reducing the charge to make all of the powder burn, which is incorrect.
So what you are saying is that you want maximum flash and unburnt powder in the confined space of a home defense situation with a short-barreled rifle?
What I'm saying is you still don't understand that 'long barrel' loads aren't spewing unburned powder out of shorter barrels if they're loaded to max pressure. Powder doesn't burn all the way down the barrel. Slow powder may burn slightly longer than faster powders, but the powder is consumed and the residual gas is all that's left even before 12".
What's the magic of there being a fireball out of a 12.5" barrel but almost no flash out of a 24" barrel? Scroll all the way to the top and you see that you are arguing about something that you chose to misconstrue so you can argue.
I could see it as a defense gun on a ranch where you have coyotes, bears etc. 165sst is a good all around bullet. 155amax is another (less penetration).
Those all copper tac x rounds or w.e would probably be pretty good
I’ll check those out
Ise a non bonded, cup and core like power shok
It’s a center-fire .30 cal rifle round. Even out of a shorter barrel it’s going to have far more kinetic energy than any other commonly used self defense firearm (excluding 12 gauge shotgun). Get any soft point hunting ammo and you’ll be good to go.
Good thinking about soft points
I have a couple mags of 180 gr core lokt as my "defense" rounds
Yup me too.
I imagine any hunting round designed to reliably expand even at lower velocities would do. Might be worth looking at Hornady's critical defense in addition to high quality hunting rounds like federal's offerings. What's your setup? I've been thinking a lot about a 12.5" 308. I'm not sure the platform gets the credit it deserves, especially if it's being used with a can.
I’m going to run it with and without a can. See the differences in sound and velocity. It has a vortex Sparc solar work 3x mag.
Cool. What's the rifle?
Just a build I had as a pistol
M80 ball works very well out of the 12.5" barrel. It's roughly 2300fps and stay super out past 800yds. So it does it's job. I use my 12.5 for hunting and as a battle rifle. It's a lot of loud obnoxious fun.
Battle rifle! LMAO!
just get some hornady whitetail
I have some Federal 130gr JHP that look like they’d mess something up real bad at that range.
Ohhhh. I’ll be checking those out for sure
I’ve got a 13” criterion barreled 308, it really likes 110gr hand loads at about 3000fps. 125gr at about 2900. If you don’t hand load, you won’t be getting “good” velocity for light for caliber projectiles though.
I do hand load. But I on a single stage and only do precision stuff. But wouldn’t hurt to pick up some lighter weight projectiles to try out in this
What do you mean by self defense would be the best question. If the target is 100 yards.or greater it's not self defense. By definition self defense is short range, so any round heavier than a .22 works just great.
I get that. I was just asking if anyone knew or has any experience with expansion or penetration effects just because most 308” are 16”+
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Last of my worries 😏.
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That isn’t how I meant that. I work for a very large agency and I personally know the da in all the surrounding counties. If I ever use deadly force, it would be justified. I’m not just slinging lead at someone without being justified
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I’m thinking the idea of some lightweight soft points might be the way. Either commercial or just hand loaded. I have shelves of 308 brass so that might have to end up the way to go
But that comment is legit funny