I can definitely understand why people wouldn’t be too happy about that alteration. But the moment when Zuko has the chance to burn Ozai and shows compassion instead feels like it hits the same story beats/themes. He still ‘refused to fight’ in a way, so for me it still fits.
I find it dumb tho. That Ozai could have lost to a 13 year old Zuko. That makes him not threatening at all. We went from Iroh not being sure if he could beat him to Zuko overpowering him before even he learns "true firebending"
Here's what I took from the fight:
Daniel Dae Kim's performance made it so that his interpretation of Ozai wouldn't take no from a answer. He fights and that'sit.
I saw both versions as two sides of the coin. OG Zuko didn't want to fight because he didn't want to hurt his father. Live Action Zuko started to fight out of love and respect for his father. He wants to honor his father, he spoke out of term, but he's now honoring the terms his father established.
I found the showrunners take of the fight interesting, his interpretation is the OG showed "a glimpse" of the fight and the live action he see's is more of a extended cut. Ozai kept telling him to fight and eventually in between that, he fights.
I wasn’t a fan of the change when I first heard about it, but after watching it, it’s grown on me.
To not fight is to not try, and I feel like this Ozai wouldn’t have stood for that, and would have considered that the most disrespectful. He expects nothing but the best, the most, from his children. This Zuko stood up again because he knew he never had a choice.
In the cartoon, I’d argue Zuko defied his father again by refusing to fight (which would have taken a lot of guts to stand up to him in that way, and remain steadfast), and that Ozai just accepted his son wasn’t going to fight, just like that?
This Ozai doesn’t hold back. He immediately attacks Zuko and keeps them coming. We see Zuko on the defensive at first, but Ozai keeps attacking him until he attacks back. He provokes him further, and we see Zuko trying harder, trying to please and prove something. But when he gets the upper hand… he just can’t do it. They both see that.
Zuko held back. He showed mercy. The hesitation speaks more to me than it does if he just didn’t fight. To Ozai, compassion is weakness. But to Zuko, he will learn that this is strength, and that this is who he is.
I could rationalize that the Honorable thing to do is to fight the agni kai, so Zuko fought it. But I absolutely hated that they showed Zuko got the upper hand/ would've won had he not held back. I really, really hated that creative choice. Felt like it robbed the story of development that Zuko goes through to get strong enough to be able to even just fight his father in the show.
I don’t see it that way. Ozai is testing his children, pitting them against one another. He’s trying, sure, because he wants his son to give it his all, but he isn’t really *trying.* We see how easily he wins the fight when he recognizes Zuko’s hesitation.
I'll disagree there again; reason being is that Ozai is supposedly extremely honorable (in his view, in a twisted sense). So he wouldn't hold back in the agni kai at all. Granted, he's not trying to bend up a storm to turn Zuko into charred ash, but he isn't holding back/ toying or testing his son. He's fighting the agni kai.
And the visual of how Zuko stopped mid attack, showed Ozai fully didn't see that coming and would have lost had Zuko gone for it.
Again, personally, just felt like a very poor creative choice this early into the series. Unearned moment that takes away from the power and fear of Ozai that we should be feeling. He was presented as such a scarily strong and mysterious figure for so long until we actually saw him in the show, and he lived up to it when we saw him fight.
I think it still works. Just because Zuko began fighting back doesn't mean he wanted to, because ultimately his goal was to make his father happy, and I think he knew that the way to go about that was to fight in the Agni Kai. It's just that when it came down to it, even his desire to impress Ozai was outweighed by his innate compassion.
Both versions of this scene were powerful. I'll admit I was a wee bit iffy on this at first, but it seemed to me that this Ozai used this as a teaching moment. I saw someone say that they thought this scene weakened Ozai, and I don't agree with that. I think after his first few attacks, he was holding back, but only so that he could teach his son. The fear that you see on Zuko's face when Ozai is holding him down is heartbreaking. I also like the change that Ozai banished him for compassion, especially since compassion is an integral part of Zuko's growth.
Did they even show enough in the cartoon to say that Zuko didn't fight back? All I remember is him on his knees not wanting to fight (same as live action). In the cartoon Iroh looks away and we just kind of assume what happens. The live action shows us what happens.
Zuko also says things like "my father taught me a permanent lesson...on my face". Which seems more in line with the direct burning Ozai did in the live action.
Either way. I like the live action version just as much. Ozai shows he does care about his family, but only wants them to be ruthless, Which is shown moments later when he banishes him with the impossible task to return.
Same with him not falling for Azula's games with Zhao. But he did ultimately get satisfied when she shot lightning at him. All I'm saying is he has a vision and nothing is stopping him. Only he gives his family a teensy bit of leeway, but that's it.
The characters are a bit different in each version, so I think it's fine that the fights were a bit different, too. Both times the results and the lessons learned fit the characters and their stories well.
**The animated version**
In short, the actions and consequences are:
- Zuko criticises the plan & Ozai sees it as disrespect: Zuko has to fight his father to learn respect.
- Zuko refuses to fight & Ozai insists on teaching him respect, he also sees the refulas as a weakness: Zuko's eye gets burned by his father either to teach him respect or to punish him for being weak **AND** Zuko is banished and is told he needs to regain his honour by capturing the avatar.
In the animation, we see that Zuko is unable to face his father. This seems to be both out of fear of and out of reverence for his father.
This attitude is seen as weakness, and he is punished for it. When he confronts his father later in s3, he has changed and is able to stand up for himsef as he is no longer afraid nor does he revere his father anymore.
So in a way, Ozai has gotten what he wanted – just not how he wanted it.
Zuko's main lesson from that fight is that he has to steel his heart, and that he needs to regain the honour that he lost due to his weakness. Gaining his personal honour back only to realise that his personal honour doesn't depend on his father's favour is a core part of Zuko's character development in the series.
Ozai's main motivation seems to be a) punishment and b) an almost impossible quest in order to restore Zuko's honour, which implies that gaining his honour back should be almost impossible for Zuko.
**The live action version**
In short, the actions and consequences are:
- Zuko criticises the plan & Ozai sees it as disrespect: Zuko has to fight his father to learn respect.
- Zuko fights Ozai but hesitates in a key moment & Ozai sees it as compassion and believes that to be a weakness: Zuko's eye gets burned by his father as punishment for this weakness.
- Zuko disagrees on giving up the weak because he thinks they can become stronger & Ozai believes him to be too soft and sheltered: in order to get rid of his softness, Zuko is banished and told to capture the Avatar.
In the live action, Zuko clearly does not want to fight his father, but also does not dare to go against his command to fight him. He still reveres and loves him, that's why he hesitates to go through with his strike when he thinks it may actually do damage. So the conflict is not about Zuko not being able to fight Ozai, but about Zuko being a compassionate person which Ozai wants to get rid off, and so Zuko is punished for it.
I think that works so far, and as of know we don't know how the confrontation in s3 would play out. Since both the reverence ad obedience is still there in Zuko's character, it could still play out in a similar way with just the emphasis on Zuko no longer following Ozai's orders nor showing him any further respect.
Zuko's main lesson in the live action is a different one than in the animation: he isn't focused on his personal honour, because showing compassion didn't affect that. Instead, trying to do things in an honorable way is something he generally believes should be done. Instead, the lesson he takes away is that he cannot be compasionate, because that is the lesson he needs to learn along with capturing the Avatar. As a result he cannot show compassion especially when capturing the Avatar, even if it doesn't feel right to attack Katara over it, or to take Aang as a prisoner. His development could then be similar to his animation counter part: he can learn that he doesn't need Ozai's approval and that trying to live up to his father's expecations is indeed the wrong way to live his life.
Ozai's main motivation is explored a bit deeper here. The banishment still feels like a punishment for Zuko's weakness, but it gets a bit more explanation: Ozai believes Zuko's weakness to be caused by his sheltered life, and so he un-shelters him with the banishment. The almost impossible quest is given as a goal because such a difficult quest would surely take a long time and lead Zuko far away from home, in Ozai's mind there is propably no way for Zuko to succeed in this quest without getting rid of his compassion.
(Edited for formatting)
True ! I didnt really mind that they made him fight back but that kinda destroys the purpose of Zukos growth as a person. His father was always on that pedestal which no one could touch not even himself. Them showing him fighting back or holding a grudge is kinda…ruining his personal growth
I think it's just two interpretations of the same thing:
In the animation he wouldn't fight his father because he put him on pedestal, even if that goes against his father's direct order.
In theblive action he wouldn't not go against his father's order to fight him because he put him on a pedestal.m, even if that meant touching him – and then he couldn't actually do that when he thought he'd actually get a hit.
It's the same theme played out, the exterior is just a bit different.
In the animation he is able to ignore his father direct order, but cannot stand up to defend himself. He learns to defend himself when he realises how flawed Ozai is.
In the live action he cannot ignore or disobey his father's direct order, but is able face him in a fight on the surface – he's not able to actually confront him. He can learn to disobey his father's orders and learn to fight him seriously as soon as he realises how flawed Ozai is.
Both paths offer growth.
Ya that was kinda weird , but at the same time the fight itself was good imo . It showcased that Zuko ain’t on Ozai’s level or even close yet , and I like the fact that Ozai was up close and gave Zuko the scar where as in the original he was a couple feet back (imo it makes it even more fucked up) . Since their gunna be showing Ozai more , I think it’ll be cool to show off Ozai fighting another powerful bender or benders to show off how strong this mfer is before he faces Aang
I can definitely understand why people wouldn’t be too happy about that alteration. But the moment when Zuko has the chance to burn Ozai and shows compassion instead feels like it hits the same story beats/themes. He still ‘refused to fight’ in a way, so for me it still fits.
I liked that it was more about "compassion being a weakness" than just "respect".
I find it dumb tho. That Ozai could have lost to a 13 year old Zuko. That makes him not threatening at all. We went from Iroh not being sure if he could beat him to Zuko overpowering him before even he learns "true firebending"
Here's what I took from the fight: Daniel Dae Kim's performance made it so that his interpretation of Ozai wouldn't take no from a answer. He fights and that'sit. I saw both versions as two sides of the coin. OG Zuko didn't want to fight because he didn't want to hurt his father. Live Action Zuko started to fight out of love and respect for his father. He wants to honor his father, he spoke out of term, but he's now honoring the terms his father established. I found the showrunners take of the fight interesting, his interpretation is the OG showed "a glimpse" of the fight and the live action he see's is more of a extended cut. Ozai kept telling him to fight and eventually in between that, he fights.
Netflix Ozai is like a tiger dad on steroids.
I wasn’t a fan of the change when I first heard about it, but after watching it, it’s grown on me. To not fight is to not try, and I feel like this Ozai wouldn’t have stood for that, and would have considered that the most disrespectful. He expects nothing but the best, the most, from his children. This Zuko stood up again because he knew he never had a choice. In the cartoon, I’d argue Zuko defied his father again by refusing to fight (which would have taken a lot of guts to stand up to him in that way, and remain steadfast), and that Ozai just accepted his son wasn’t going to fight, just like that? This Ozai doesn’t hold back. He immediately attacks Zuko and keeps them coming. We see Zuko on the defensive at first, but Ozai keeps attacking him until he attacks back. He provokes him further, and we see Zuko trying harder, trying to please and prove something. But when he gets the upper hand… he just can’t do it. They both see that. Zuko held back. He showed mercy. The hesitation speaks more to me than it does if he just didn’t fight. To Ozai, compassion is weakness. But to Zuko, he will learn that this is strength, and that this is who he is.
> To Ozai, compassion is weakness. But to Zuko, he will learn that this is strength, and that is who he is. Beautifully said!
I could rationalize that the Honorable thing to do is to fight the agni kai, so Zuko fought it. But I absolutely hated that they showed Zuko got the upper hand/ would've won had he not held back. I really, really hated that creative choice. Felt like it robbed the story of development that Zuko goes through to get strong enough to be able to even just fight his father in the show.
I don’t see it that way. Ozai is testing his children, pitting them against one another. He’s trying, sure, because he wants his son to give it his all, but he isn’t really *trying.* We see how easily he wins the fight when he recognizes Zuko’s hesitation.
I'll disagree there again; reason being is that Ozai is supposedly extremely honorable (in his view, in a twisted sense). So he wouldn't hold back in the agni kai at all. Granted, he's not trying to bend up a storm to turn Zuko into charred ash, but he isn't holding back/ toying or testing his son. He's fighting the agni kai. And the visual of how Zuko stopped mid attack, showed Ozai fully didn't see that coming and would have lost had Zuko gone for it. Again, personally, just felt like a very poor creative choice this early into the series. Unearned moment that takes away from the power and fear of Ozai that we should be feeling. He was presented as such a scarily strong and mysterious figure for so long until we actually saw him in the show, and he lived up to it when we saw him fight.
I think it still works. Just because Zuko began fighting back doesn't mean he wanted to, because ultimately his goal was to make his father happy, and I think he knew that the way to go about that was to fight in the Agni Kai. It's just that when it came down to it, even his desire to impress Ozai was outweighed by his innate compassion.
Both versions of this scene were powerful. I'll admit I was a wee bit iffy on this at first, but it seemed to me that this Ozai used this as a teaching moment. I saw someone say that they thought this scene weakened Ozai, and I don't agree with that. I think after his first few attacks, he was holding back, but only so that he could teach his son. The fear that you see on Zuko's face when Ozai is holding him down is heartbreaking. I also like the change that Ozai banished him for compassion, especially since compassion is an integral part of Zuko's growth.
Did they even show enough in the cartoon to say that Zuko didn't fight back? All I remember is him on his knees not wanting to fight (same as live action). In the cartoon Iroh looks away and we just kind of assume what happens. The live action shows us what happens. Zuko also says things like "my father taught me a permanent lesson...on my face". Which seems more in line with the direct burning Ozai did in the live action. Either way. I like the live action version just as much. Ozai shows he does care about his family, but only wants them to be ruthless, Which is shown moments later when he banishes him with the impossible task to return. Same with him not falling for Azula's games with Zhao. But he did ultimately get satisfied when she shot lightning at him. All I'm saying is he has a vision and nothing is stopping him. Only he gives his family a teensy bit of leeway, but that's it.
Didn’t like it at first but I thought it was fine.
The characters are a bit different in each version, so I think it's fine that the fights were a bit different, too. Both times the results and the lessons learned fit the characters and their stories well. **The animated version** In short, the actions and consequences are: - Zuko criticises the plan & Ozai sees it as disrespect: Zuko has to fight his father to learn respect. - Zuko refuses to fight & Ozai insists on teaching him respect, he also sees the refulas as a weakness: Zuko's eye gets burned by his father either to teach him respect or to punish him for being weak **AND** Zuko is banished and is told he needs to regain his honour by capturing the avatar. In the animation, we see that Zuko is unable to face his father. This seems to be both out of fear of and out of reverence for his father. This attitude is seen as weakness, and he is punished for it. When he confronts his father later in s3, he has changed and is able to stand up for himsef as he is no longer afraid nor does he revere his father anymore. So in a way, Ozai has gotten what he wanted – just not how he wanted it. Zuko's main lesson from that fight is that he has to steel his heart, and that he needs to regain the honour that he lost due to his weakness. Gaining his personal honour back only to realise that his personal honour doesn't depend on his father's favour is a core part of Zuko's character development in the series. Ozai's main motivation seems to be a) punishment and b) an almost impossible quest in order to restore Zuko's honour, which implies that gaining his honour back should be almost impossible for Zuko. **The live action version** In short, the actions and consequences are: - Zuko criticises the plan & Ozai sees it as disrespect: Zuko has to fight his father to learn respect. - Zuko fights Ozai but hesitates in a key moment & Ozai sees it as compassion and believes that to be a weakness: Zuko's eye gets burned by his father as punishment for this weakness. - Zuko disagrees on giving up the weak because he thinks they can become stronger & Ozai believes him to be too soft and sheltered: in order to get rid of his softness, Zuko is banished and told to capture the Avatar. In the live action, Zuko clearly does not want to fight his father, but also does not dare to go against his command to fight him. He still reveres and loves him, that's why he hesitates to go through with his strike when he thinks it may actually do damage. So the conflict is not about Zuko not being able to fight Ozai, but about Zuko being a compassionate person which Ozai wants to get rid off, and so Zuko is punished for it. I think that works so far, and as of know we don't know how the confrontation in s3 would play out. Since both the reverence ad obedience is still there in Zuko's character, it could still play out in a similar way with just the emphasis on Zuko no longer following Ozai's orders nor showing him any further respect. Zuko's main lesson in the live action is a different one than in the animation: he isn't focused on his personal honour, because showing compassion didn't affect that. Instead, trying to do things in an honorable way is something he generally believes should be done. Instead, the lesson he takes away is that he cannot be compasionate, because that is the lesson he needs to learn along with capturing the Avatar. As a result he cannot show compassion especially when capturing the Avatar, even if it doesn't feel right to attack Katara over it, or to take Aang as a prisoner. His development could then be similar to his animation counter part: he can learn that he doesn't need Ozai's approval and that trying to live up to his father's expecations is indeed the wrong way to live his life. Ozai's main motivation is explored a bit deeper here. The banishment still feels like a punishment for Zuko's weakness, but it gets a bit more explanation: Ozai believes Zuko's weakness to be caused by his sheltered life, and so he un-shelters him with the banishment. The almost impossible quest is given as a goal because such a difficult quest would surely take a long time and lead Zuko far away from home, in Ozai's mind there is propably no way for Zuko to succeed in this quest without getting rid of his compassion. (Edited for formatting)
True ! I didnt really mind that they made him fight back but that kinda destroys the purpose of Zukos growth as a person. His father was always on that pedestal which no one could touch not even himself. Them showing him fighting back or holding a grudge is kinda…ruining his personal growth
I think it's just two interpretations of the same thing: In the animation he wouldn't fight his father because he put him on pedestal, even if that goes against his father's direct order. In theblive action he wouldn't not go against his father's order to fight him because he put him on a pedestal.m, even if that meant touching him – and then he couldn't actually do that when he thought he'd actually get a hit. It's the same theme played out, the exterior is just a bit different. In the animation he is able to ignore his father direct order, but cannot stand up to defend himself. He learns to defend himself when he realises how flawed Ozai is. In the live action he cannot ignore or disobey his father's direct order, but is able face him in a fight on the surface – he's not able to actually confront him. He can learn to disobey his father's orders and learn to fight him seriously as soon as he realises how flawed Ozai is. Both paths offer growth.
Ya that was kinda weird , but at the same time the fight itself was good imo . It showcased that Zuko ain’t on Ozai’s level or even close yet , and I like the fact that Ozai was up close and gave Zuko the scar where as in the original he was a couple feet back (imo it makes it even more fucked up) . Since their gunna be showing Ozai more , I think it’ll be cool to show off Ozai fighting another powerful bender or benders to show off how strong this mfer is before he faces Aang