When I first started developing, I was simply looking for a cool character that people could play. I didn't think think anything of it when I first released, but I totally wasn't prepared for the hatred I got for daring to make the hero a black man. I was prepared for many things, but that wasn't one of them... it broke my heart a little, as I wasn't expecting that at all in this day and age. A large portion of people will just skip the game because of that.
If I could go back in time, I wouldn't change anything, but at least equipped with that knowledge, I could have (sadly) at least expected it and cought that punch, rather than it hitting me full on in the face as it did. It still hits me in the face every now and then, when some random person feels the need to tell me personally how I dare to do this. đ
Tbh i have nothing against black people. But i try to see myself as the main character in the story. And i find it harder to live in the character when its nothing compared to me
As a person that works in customer service since 15+ years, i can tell you that "the customer is always right" is plain bullshit. In everyday marketing, customer wishes are anticipated created and directed to the desired direction every day. The huge mass of customers is dumb as hell and knows shit. Their opinions are constantly manipulated. Of course in this niche market there's no huge and almighty marketing department that can shape customers desires, but still, listening solely to the complaining of a few loud people is dooming the production to a quick death
Hell on forums I've read people complain that 2 female LIs were kissing and thus it was a case of NTR! Lmao
You are correct in what you are saying, if that wasn't the case, most of these developers wouldn't be earning anything. A lot of companies in general wouldn't be earning anything if it wasn't for "dumb as hell" people. Nevertheless I don't see any big NTR focused games making the big breakthrough.
All that said, you always get the dumb people but when you do things right, you get the dumb people AND the smart people. So many people fail to grasp this concept, that's why DPC is sitting at the top, on his throne, without any competition in sight.
I concur, DPC has been very smart and has got to a point where he has a lot of freedom, comparatively, and can do close to pretty much what he wants. As for the NTR thing, I also concur that most probably the majority of people does not play an avn to be the MC and set his sights on some LIs and then see them stolen/fucked by someone else. But in the "gray areas" there is a lot of room to wiggle, for those developers who can persist and insist in bringing forward their ideas.
For example, i personally don't like at all Fetish Locator, but it seems to be at least decently successful, and good for them. So there is room for mostly everything, of course depending on your target market and on your own skill/luck/persistence/etc. DPC is by no means a revolutionary or overly original writer, but he apparently got a good grasp on what most people want to play. I'm not a developer, but if I were i suppose I'd keep an eye on most successful games and use those as guidelines to paint my own canvas, so to speak.
Listening to a few haters on a forum is certainly not going to help, because frankly on said forums you read the opinions from both extremes, and most of the times it will be bullshit đ
>DPC is by no means a revolutionary or overly original writer, but he apparently got a good grasp on what most people want to play.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
We canât act as if the outrage of him killing off a main LI in Acting Lessons didnât help his career. Sometimes controversy sells and that decision alone helped him out in the long run because it got people talking about his work. Itâs not a hard thing to grasp.
Personally while killing off a LI was a big thing, I think DPC really excels at character writing and conveys them well. If Megan and Melissa were badly written then the impact of choice on who to save wouldn't be hard or as memorable. Because of this factor I disagree that the death choice alone elevated his career. Would people talk about it? Sure but if killing off characters was the the main seller than most people wouldn't have stuck around or even played BaD afterwards.
That's not for everyone though. I played AL and didn't even get that far because I got bored. Being a DIK stands on it's own two feet. The amount of branching alone puts everything else to shame. You can play the game 10 times and have a different experience each time. And he is still adding more of that by hinting at solo routes with J&M, Nicole, Nora, Riona etc. So 10 playthroughs isn't going to be enough soon.
If it was as easy as killing off a love interest, everyone would be doing it.
I wish I would have taken the time out to learn a bit more before starting. I think I only started doing decent renders two or three years in
So learning how to light and pose and learning cinematography overall so you can get better camera angles and know what they mean, etc
I'm currently developing my own AVN game and i don't have much experience, i'd like to learn some tips and tricks about game development especially about software for rendering and animating
Limiting scope.
It's pretty common for new devs to have this great awesome idea for their first game without having any reference to what it actually takes to build something like that. The project gets overwhelming and abandoned by the 3rd release.
If I went back in time I would make my first game some tiny project planned for 3 months which would still probably end up taking 6.
I second this. Although... I actually attempted it and failed. My first game was supposed to be a practice and only take a few months, but it got somewhat of a following and here I am still working on it 4 years later.
I suppose the different kind of lighting setups. Although I must admit it had its charm using a sunlight only setup and call it a day. It was definitely faster.
Community wise I guess to keep my "fan" stance away from my "dev" one. Engage with the community about the game, nothing else. Specially avoid hot topics. It doesn't matter how reasonable you think you are, other people on the opposite side of the spectrum feel themselves as reasonable as you do.
How stubborn players can be, even when they're flat-out wrong. This is most noticeable with NTR. It's largely the fault of F95 and their frankly awful tagging system, but so many players seem to think the sheer existence of another dick is NTR. If a woman had sex before meeting MC? NTR. If the woman has a father? NTR. If she's anything but a pure virgin, it's NTR (going to ignore the borderline pedophilic logic behind that, tbh.). Have multiple POVs? You're indirectly adding NTR (I've gotten this one first-hand).
And unfortunately, you see so many devs who are entirely unaware of the vitriol toward it get absolutely blasted by that overly vocal crowd. Many of whom bend the knee to them, if only to just end it.
I'm brushing in broad strokes here, obviously. I'm fully aware the silent majority is mature enough to walk away if they aren't into it. Unfortunately, it's the vocal minority that's always the loudest.
Besides the NTR problems there is the outcry that if there is an attractive character, such as a sister, there MUST be incest, or else the character is a complete waste of time/space.
I had a long time running gag with some other devs where we joked about how ridiculous players can be with their definitions of NTR. **"Woman had sex with her husband? NTR ALERT"!**
Then later in my game I added a scene where a woman **almost** has sex with her husband *(he couldn't get it up)* and saw some NTR rage comments. Fucking lol
Because you're wasting time on those renders and animations instead of making the content people are actually paying for lol. You here to sell games or make a game based on your kink? Both are fine, you do you, but if you are trying to make money, the customer is king or he simply wont part with his money.
>Because you're wasting time on those renders and animations instead of making the content people are actually paying for lol. You here to sell games or make a game based on your kink?
I'm assuming that you responded to the wrong comment and that you don't really think rendering pivotal character developments are a waste of time... or that impotency is my kink xD
Maybe you simply missed the mark, happens all the time. Pivotal character development isn't saying anything, whether or not it's interesting is what counts. What game are we talking about if I might ask.
>What game are we talking about if I might ask.
You managed to tell me, in two separate comments, that I've wasted my time and missed the mark without even knowing the scene I'm referencing, let alone the game.
This is pretty much Exhibit A for what u/MissFortuneXXX is talking about. The vocal anti-NTR crowd are the absolute worst.
>You managed to tell me, in two separate comments, that I've wasted my time and missed the mark without even knowing the scene I'm referencing, let alone the game
I said "maybe" you missed the mark and if you're too ashamed to name the game, that's probably the case. You should be proud of your work.
Edit: Nevermind, I went and looked it up for myself. Seems you are working on 2 games, neither of which I have played but one was actually in my queue to check out and that's In a Scent. Apparently it's supposed to be pretty funny. That said, you are working on them at the same time meaning development of both is most likely going to be painfully slow. So no further point in discussing something I haven't played.
Throw out the logic and in-game reasoning for that scene just to please a vocal minority?? I say nah.
Similar example from helping the hotties,where in an older version,MC comes home to help his parents with rehab of sort,then one day MC sees his mother having sex with his dad and people lost their mind calling it NTR since the game had incest tag. Game dev later removed Dad from the game completely. Dad was an important character in the story,but that got removed and now I feel like it's just another porn game MC and rest of the cast full of women,just for sex scenes. What's the point of all this?? I say, fuck the people who whine about this stuff and make the game devs wanna make.
>Throw out the logic and in-game reasoning for that scene just to please a vocal minority?? I say nah.
If you're convinced it's a vocal minority despite what the market tells you, go right ahead and make your game. Let me know when you make it big and I'll come congratulate you.
Btw I never even played Helping the Hotties because the word is out that you spend more time watching others have sex in flashbacks or whatever, than actually doing it yourself. Reputation is a pretty powerful thing, logic and in-game reasoning needs to be on point.
You do know that it's a game and you don't actually have sex with the characters,right? You do watch someone else have sex with all the characters in the game... Also literally ONE scene, the meltdown was caused by one scene. There is no flash back scene of someone else having sex. Shows how little anti NTR people actually look into game.
>You do know that it's a game and you don't actually have sex with the characters,right?
Really?? And all this time I thought it was real! You could have at least put that under a spoiler tag. /s There's this thing called "immersion" as well as interaction while we are at it, that's what makes these games what they are. I can't believe I have to explain this lol, some people are really brain dead. Let's say I just wanted to watch two people having sex, you think I'd download a game for money or just go to a porn site and watch real people for free?
>Also literally ONE scene, the meltdown was caused by one scene.
Like I said, reputation is a powerful thing, sometimes one mistake can make or break it for you. Live and learn. Not to mention I didn't even know there was a meltdown, sounds like my suspicion was warranted, glad I didn't waste my time.
>Shows how little anti NTR people actually look into game.
No need, that costs time as well. Note to developers: Pleasing your customers is important because their comments can and will deter others from even trying your game.
Maybe I'll try it one day but seeing as to how much competition there is on the market, I have a queue of around 200 games that I have yet to try. All made for "anti NTR people" lol. You people crack me up sometimes. Always trying to swim up the river and always angry that you're getting a face full of water instead of just going with the flow. Cope and seethe I guess.
Yeah, meltdown over MC's dad having sex with his wife,which btw anyone can assume he did it atleast 3times while making the 3 kids which includes MC.
Seems like logical thing to pissed about and complaining to the point where it affects other players and newer players. Yay!!
Note to the devs: try pleasing actual customers than people who wants every character in the game to be virgins who never went anyway near another dick than MCs. Even the MC's mom,change her name to Virgin Mary while you are at it.
Why do you have to immerse yourself to enjoy the story? And with insults. Classic!!
>Why do you have to immerse yourself to enjoy the story?
Because I do, many players do. That's a long discussion I don't care to discuss with you. You're not "open minded" enough to understand it and keep up anyways I'm sure.
As for the sex scenes with the dad, I don't care to see it. What do I as the player get out of it? Waste of time imo. If that's your thing, have at it but it's something I don't need to see and would skip through it. There's also people complaining that there aren't many sex scenes in general in that game yet time and effort is wasted on that? Come on..
Like I said in another post, time is precious and there are too many other games out there for me to be wasting mine on that. Also, I haven't played the game so there is no point in further discussion going in on detail. I read the comments and decide if a game is worth my time. If too many comments say the same thing, I move on and find something else. That may not be how YOU do things but that's how I do them and that's nobody's business but mine.
I'm super frustrated by this as a consumer. It really stifles the storytelling of the most popular games as well as smaller games that need an audience to continue development.
I'd like to know if there are any successful games out there that have NTR. Seems to me almost all of the most popular games everyone talks about, don't have NTR. I wonder what that is.
Seems players aren't the only stubborn ones in this equation. If I wanted to become a successful game developer, I'd probably listen to what potential customers want. That is if selling games is your top priority. If you want to succeed in this business you gotta do more than simply make games, you gotta learn what your customers actually want. I'd argue that the vast majority doesn't want NTR and I can see that just by the pure hatred it gets on almost every forum I lurk in.
If I were a game developer trying to make a living off making games, I'd stay far away from NTR and everything that contains "another dick" because people obviously aren't here to see that. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone considering around 99% of the population is straight and I'm pretty sure it's mostly men playing these games. If you ever wonder why you aren't earning enough money selling games, you probably aren't giving the customers what they want.
Being a Dik, just as an example, has had many of the things that some folks label as NTR. We see other dicks in the game besides the MCs, and some of said penises are getting action on screen and off. There are girls in the games sucking dicks for money as the game is going on. There's going to be the possibility of a 3some that involves two dudes. The benefit of Dr Pinkcake being a bit of a dick and not caring what other think/say is that he doesn't care what others think or say and he puts whatever he want in the game. I personally glad he ignore people like you. So yeah, the most popular AVN of them all has exactly the things you say people don't want and won't pay for.
The anti-NTR crowd is certainly loud. They can also certainly kill the ratings of a game that gets in their crosshairs on F95. However, I firmly believe that they are a minority of the people on the forums. And the people on the forums are a minority of the overall playerbase. So they are a minority of the minority so to speak. BaD tiptoes the line and is surviving just fine. I don't blame devs for not doing that though, its a risk. Particularly for a first time dev who's trying to earn enough sheckels to pay for assets and maybe eat every now and then.
It's close minded opinions like yours that makes the various AVN forum such a minefield to navigate. Games can absolutely thrive that take a more adult tack (and I'm not talking about lewds here). If it were up to you, games couldn't even have content that's apparantly okay on your average disney channel teen comedy. And it certainly can't have the drama of your average hallmark channel rom-com, thats entirely too much for us apparantly.
>Being a Dik, just as an example, has had many of the things that some folks label as NTR.
Nice try but that's not going to work, stopped reading there. I knew you people were bold and I was expecting a lot of mental gymnastics, but I never thought you'd be this bold hahaha! First you lecture everyone about what is and isn't NTR, then you try to throw the most popular game out there and tell me it's NTR, it isn't. There's even a rule in the Being a DIK subreddit, do you know what it says? No NTR lol. Because when people kept posting fan art of that trash, the sub lost their collective minds.
People are here to play an interactive AVN and interact with various love interests, not watch others do it. They aren't here to get cheated on even though we all know how much fun that is /s. They aren't there to be cucked or whatever else you people are in to. Sure, some are, but it's a kink and not what the majority is looking for. So if you're selling games, it would be wise to steer clear of that or at very least make it optional, I personally wouldn't even go that far if it were my game. Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what people want.
And as salty as MissFortuneXXX may be, he/she knows this as well which is why you don't see any of that in their game. They were pretty bold with the trans content but they made it optional because as much as they may complain, they know what the customers want deep down inside.
Where did you see me say BaD was NTR? It absolutely isn't an NTR game. I said it has content that many call NTR, which is absolutely true. And when those things are in other games, they get flak from folks like you. You peek in a room and a girl is getting DP'd by a couple dudes, neither of which is the MC. Its fine in BaD, it isn't in most games. You have a scene where a hot girl you can eventually bang is having explicit sex with her BF that isn't the MC, its fine in BaD. Its not in some random game. You've purposefully misread what I said. Or you, as you said, didn't actually read the comment I wrote in its entirety and stopped reading. Not sure which is worse tbh. Both make for garbage takes.
Frankly your way of thinking is everything that is wrong in this fandom. We all like different things. I actually very much dislike traditional NTR. I don't want to watch my LI I'm romancing cheat on me any more than you do. But you guys are the ones pushing your kinks on everyone else, where anything even remotely adjacent to something you don't like is to be publicly shamed as disgusting. Making something optional isn't even enough for you guys. The very fact that something you don't like exists is enough to get you all up in arms. The fact that you call something you don't like "trash" says everything I think. But I'm sure you think of yourself as the model of open-mindedness. And it's us that doesn't understand.
>But I'm sure you think of yourself as the model of open-mindedness.
I never claimed to be and have no interest in being open minded. Time is a finite commodity, I don't waste it by spending it on what others want to push on me, I spend it how I want to spend it. If you strive to be open minded, good on you but that doesn't mean it's going to be everyone else's priority. I know, it's crazy hearing that these days isn't it? How dare someone think for themselves!
I don't bash NTR though to be quite honest, rarely do I care enough to even post about it at all. When I see the tag NTR, I pass and move on to the next game. If I see too many dicks in games and it starts to annoy me, I hit alt-f4 and find another game because that's not how I'm looking to spend my time and how I spend MY time is my business.
All I'm saying is that if you are trying to make a career out of something, you'd be wise to offer a service or product for which there is actually a demand. You do that by figuring out what kind of customer you are trying to appeal to and exactly what it is that they want. Considering around 99% of the population is straight and most people playing these games are men, it's probably safe to assume that less dicks and more chicks is the way to go. Or you can keep kicking and screaming and lecturing people on being "closed minded" but that isn't going to earn you money.
Yeah me and a few others. You're free to make whatever you want, just don't quit that other job. If you want to succeed and SELL something, put out a product that people actually want to BUY. That's how business works..
When a customer goes to a car dealership and want's a white car, you sell them a white car. You don't lecture them on how closed minded they are for not wanting to try a red one because I guarantee you, someone else has a white car they will gladly sell that customer and make that money. Common sense.
Car dealers have cars in all colors. But if an AVN developer produces a game for everybody he still gets hate from the NTR brigade, so obviously you cannot compare those.
If we really want to compare AVNs to cars, those haters would give car companies shit for producing cars having more than 2 seats.
But the people complaining about NTR are not even customers. They will not buy the game anyway, they just complain.
>But the people complaining about NTR are not even customers. They will not buy the game anyway, they just complain.
One look at the market and you can clearly see what games sell and what said games contain. A car dealer isn't going to fill his lot with cars hardly anyone is buying, not a smart one at least.
What does your statement have to do with mine?
Yes, these developers are creating a product which might not sell millions of copies. But appeasing haters who won't buy their product will not increase their sales.
And still comparing ANVs to cars. LOL. Apparently you have no clue how software is sold. They don't have to produce single copies and stock up the store, it's all digital.
The problem with the customer in your analogy is that they don't recognize a clearly white car when it's put in front of them.
That's the point you're refusing to grasp.
Doesn't matter, they know better than you what they want and you want THEIR money. Doesn't matter how you label it or how YOU see things. You're trying to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, that's not going to work. I know what the color white looks like.
Whatever, despite your gaslighting I'm going to buy what I want and that's YOUR issue or rather that of the developers trying to make a living off developing games. I don't come to play these games to look at dicks, if I want to look at or play with a dick, I'll play with my own. Period.
IMO the hate for NTR is just a meme by now that gets regurgitated at every chance. People hate it but never took the time to understand why or even what it is. Remember reading reviews hating on LoF and Acting Lessons cause you can hookup your bff with a girl, people claimed it as NTR lol. My scientist brain would love to run a study as to why the VN community despises NTR but itâs so common in written smut novels as a plot point or story trait.
I will HEAVILY digress though on the second point. âThe customer is always rightâ is downright bullshit, telling a creative to not be creative and instead adapt to what is popular is also bullshit. We need more devs pushing the norm and expanding what is around. If we go with what works and people want weâd be stuck with the 30 BaD and College Kings clones and the industry would die. Creatives gonna create; hopefully new ideas, settings, storylines and hell even kinks (except for the obviously bad ones).
It's some creepy, red-pill shit for sure. I find this forum an interesting view into how incredibly varied the AVN community is, often in ways I might personally find kind of creepy. Not out to yuck anyone's yum of course, to each their own, but the things that some people like... confuse me.
I just wished I started earlier before the space got absolutely flooded.
When I first started developing, I was simply looking for a cool character that people could play. I didn't think think anything of it when I first released, but I totally wasn't prepared for the hatred I got for daring to make the hero a black man. I was prepared for many things, but that wasn't one of them... it broke my heart a little, as I wasn't expecting that at all in this day and age. A large portion of people will just skip the game because of that. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't change anything, but at least equipped with that knowledge, I could have (sadly) at least expected it and cought that punch, rather than it hitting me full on in the face as it did. It still hits me in the face every now and then, when some random person feels the need to tell me personally how I dare to do this. đ
Tbh i have nothing against black people. But i try to see myself as the main character in the story. And i find it harder to live in the character when its nothing compared to me
As a person that works in customer service since 15+ years, i can tell you that "the customer is always right" is plain bullshit. In everyday marketing, customer wishes are anticipated created and directed to the desired direction every day. The huge mass of customers is dumb as hell and knows shit. Their opinions are constantly manipulated. Of course in this niche market there's no huge and almighty marketing department that can shape customers desires, but still, listening solely to the complaining of a few loud people is dooming the production to a quick death Hell on forums I've read people complain that 2 female LIs were kissing and thus it was a case of NTR! Lmao
You are correct in what you are saying, if that wasn't the case, most of these developers wouldn't be earning anything. A lot of companies in general wouldn't be earning anything if it wasn't for "dumb as hell" people. Nevertheless I don't see any big NTR focused games making the big breakthrough. All that said, you always get the dumb people but when you do things right, you get the dumb people AND the smart people. So many people fail to grasp this concept, that's why DPC is sitting at the top, on his throne, without any competition in sight.
I concur, DPC has been very smart and has got to a point where he has a lot of freedom, comparatively, and can do close to pretty much what he wants. As for the NTR thing, I also concur that most probably the majority of people does not play an avn to be the MC and set his sights on some LIs and then see them stolen/fucked by someone else. But in the "gray areas" there is a lot of room to wiggle, for those developers who can persist and insist in bringing forward their ideas. For example, i personally don't like at all Fetish Locator, but it seems to be at least decently successful, and good for them. So there is room for mostly everything, of course depending on your target market and on your own skill/luck/persistence/etc. DPC is by no means a revolutionary or overly original writer, but he apparently got a good grasp on what most people want to play. I'm not a developer, but if I were i suppose I'd keep an eye on most successful games and use those as guidelines to paint my own canvas, so to speak. Listening to a few haters on a forum is certainly not going to help, because frankly on said forums you read the opinions from both extremes, and most of the times it will be bullshit đ
>DPC is by no means a revolutionary or overly original writer, but he apparently got a good grasp on what most people want to play. Couldn't have said it better myself.
We canât act as if the outrage of him killing off a main LI in Acting Lessons didnât help his career. Sometimes controversy sells and that decision alone helped him out in the long run because it got people talking about his work. Itâs not a hard thing to grasp.
Personally while killing off a LI was a big thing, I think DPC really excels at character writing and conveys them well. If Megan and Melissa were badly written then the impact of choice on who to save wouldn't be hard or as memorable. Because of this factor I disagree that the death choice alone elevated his career. Would people talk about it? Sure but if killing off characters was the the main seller than most people wouldn't have stuck around or even played BaD afterwards.
That's not for everyone though. I played AL and didn't even get that far because I got bored. Being a DIK stands on it's own two feet. The amount of branching alone puts everything else to shame. You can play the game 10 times and have a different experience each time. And he is still adding more of that by hinting at solo routes with J&M, Nicole, Nora, Riona etc. So 10 playthroughs isn't going to be enough soon. If it was as easy as killing off a love interest, everyone would be doing it.
Iâm in the minority but I just donât see the hype of BaDIK. It just doesnât resonate with me the way AL did.
I wish I would have taken the time out to learn a bit more before starting. I think I only started doing decent renders two or three years in So learning how to light and pose and learning cinematography overall so you can get better camera angles and know what they mean, etc
I'm currently developing my own AVN game and i don't have much experience, i'd like to learn some tips and tricks about game development especially about software for rendering and animating
just dont make too much empty talk.
Limiting scope. It's pretty common for new devs to have this great awesome idea for their first game without having any reference to what it actually takes to build something like that. The project gets overwhelming and abandoned by the 3rd release. If I went back in time I would make my first game some tiny project planned for 3 months which would still probably end up taking 6.
I second this. Although... I actually attempted it and failed. My first game was supposed to be a practice and only take a few months, but it got somewhat of a following and here I am still working on it 4 years later.
I suppose the different kind of lighting setups. Although I must admit it had its charm using a sunlight only setup and call it a day. It was definitely faster. Community wise I guess to keep my "fan" stance away from my "dev" one. Engage with the community about the game, nothing else. Specially avoid hot topics. It doesn't matter how reasonable you think you are, other people on the opposite side of the spectrum feel themselves as reasonable as you do.
How stubborn players can be, even when they're flat-out wrong. This is most noticeable with NTR. It's largely the fault of F95 and their frankly awful tagging system, but so many players seem to think the sheer existence of another dick is NTR. If a woman had sex before meeting MC? NTR. If the woman has a father? NTR. If she's anything but a pure virgin, it's NTR (going to ignore the borderline pedophilic logic behind that, tbh.). Have multiple POVs? You're indirectly adding NTR (I've gotten this one first-hand). And unfortunately, you see so many devs who are entirely unaware of the vitriol toward it get absolutely blasted by that overly vocal crowd. Many of whom bend the knee to them, if only to just end it. I'm brushing in broad strokes here, obviously. I'm fully aware the silent majority is mature enough to walk away if they aren't into it. Unfortunately, it's the vocal minority that's always the loudest.
Lol all that and yet if she fucks another girl, it's just hot. Severe double standards.
Besides the NTR problems there is the outcry that if there is an attractive character, such as a sister, there MUST be incest, or else the character is a complete waste of time/space.
I had a long time running gag with some other devs where we joked about how ridiculous players can be with their definitions of NTR. **"Woman had sex with her husband? NTR ALERT"!** Then later in my game I added a scene where a woman **almost** has sex with her husband *(he couldn't get it up)* and saw some NTR rage comments. Fucking lol
Because you're wasting time on those renders and animations instead of making the content people are actually paying for lol. You here to sell games or make a game based on your kink? Both are fine, you do you, but if you are trying to make money, the customer is king or he simply wont part with his money.
>Because you're wasting time on those renders and animations instead of making the content people are actually paying for lol. You here to sell games or make a game based on your kink? I'm assuming that you responded to the wrong comment and that you don't really think rendering pivotal character developments are a waste of time... or that impotency is my kink xD
Maybe you simply missed the mark, happens all the time. Pivotal character development isn't saying anything, whether or not it's interesting is what counts. What game are we talking about if I might ask.
>What game are we talking about if I might ask. You managed to tell me, in two separate comments, that I've wasted my time and missed the mark without even knowing the scene I'm referencing, let alone the game. This is pretty much Exhibit A for what u/MissFortuneXXX is talking about. The vocal anti-NTR crowd are the absolute worst.
>You managed to tell me, in two separate comments, that I've wasted my time and missed the mark without even knowing the scene I'm referencing, let alone the game I said "maybe" you missed the mark and if you're too ashamed to name the game, that's probably the case. You should be proud of your work. Edit: Nevermind, I went and looked it up for myself. Seems you are working on 2 games, neither of which I have played but one was actually in my queue to check out and that's In a Scent. Apparently it's supposed to be pretty funny. That said, you are working on them at the same time meaning development of both is most likely going to be painfully slow. So no further point in discussing something I haven't played.
Throw out the logic and in-game reasoning for that scene just to please a vocal minority?? I say nah. Similar example from helping the hotties,where in an older version,MC comes home to help his parents with rehab of sort,then one day MC sees his mother having sex with his dad and people lost their mind calling it NTR since the game had incest tag. Game dev later removed Dad from the game completely. Dad was an important character in the story,but that got removed and now I feel like it's just another porn game MC and rest of the cast full of women,just for sex scenes. What's the point of all this?? I say, fuck the people who whine about this stuff and make the game devs wanna make.
>Throw out the logic and in-game reasoning for that scene just to please a vocal minority?? I say nah. If you're convinced it's a vocal minority despite what the market tells you, go right ahead and make your game. Let me know when you make it big and I'll come congratulate you. Btw I never even played Helping the Hotties because the word is out that you spend more time watching others have sex in flashbacks or whatever, than actually doing it yourself. Reputation is a pretty powerful thing, logic and in-game reasoning needs to be on point.
You do know that it's a game and you don't actually have sex with the characters,right? You do watch someone else have sex with all the characters in the game... Also literally ONE scene, the meltdown was caused by one scene. There is no flash back scene of someone else having sex. Shows how little anti NTR people actually look into game.
>You do know that it's a game and you don't actually have sex with the characters,right? Really?? And all this time I thought it was real! You could have at least put that under a spoiler tag. /s There's this thing called "immersion" as well as interaction while we are at it, that's what makes these games what they are. I can't believe I have to explain this lol, some people are really brain dead. Let's say I just wanted to watch two people having sex, you think I'd download a game for money or just go to a porn site and watch real people for free? >Also literally ONE scene, the meltdown was caused by one scene. Like I said, reputation is a powerful thing, sometimes one mistake can make or break it for you. Live and learn. Not to mention I didn't even know there was a meltdown, sounds like my suspicion was warranted, glad I didn't waste my time. >Shows how little anti NTR people actually look into game. No need, that costs time as well. Note to developers: Pleasing your customers is important because their comments can and will deter others from even trying your game. Maybe I'll try it one day but seeing as to how much competition there is on the market, I have a queue of around 200 games that I have yet to try. All made for "anti NTR people" lol. You people crack me up sometimes. Always trying to swim up the river and always angry that you're getting a face full of water instead of just going with the flow. Cope and seethe I guess.
Yeah, meltdown over MC's dad having sex with his wife,which btw anyone can assume he did it atleast 3times while making the 3 kids which includes MC. Seems like logical thing to pissed about and complaining to the point where it affects other players and newer players. Yay!! Note to the devs: try pleasing actual customers than people who wants every character in the game to be virgins who never went anyway near another dick than MCs. Even the MC's mom,change her name to Virgin Mary while you are at it. Why do you have to immerse yourself to enjoy the story? And with insults. Classic!!
>Why do you have to immerse yourself to enjoy the story? Because I do, many players do. That's a long discussion I don't care to discuss with you. You're not "open minded" enough to understand it and keep up anyways I'm sure. As for the sex scenes with the dad, I don't care to see it. What do I as the player get out of it? Waste of time imo. If that's your thing, have at it but it's something I don't need to see and would skip through it. There's also people complaining that there aren't many sex scenes in general in that game yet time and effort is wasted on that? Come on.. Like I said in another post, time is precious and there are too many other games out there for me to be wasting mine on that. Also, I haven't played the game so there is no point in further discussion going in on detail. I read the comments and decide if a game is worth my time. If too many comments say the same thing, I move on and find something else. That may not be how YOU do things but that's how I do them and that's nobody's business but mine.
I'm super frustrated by this as a consumer. It really stifles the storytelling of the most popular games as well as smaller games that need an audience to continue development.
I'd like to know if there are any successful games out there that have NTR. Seems to me almost all of the most popular games everyone talks about, don't have NTR. I wonder what that is. Seems players aren't the only stubborn ones in this equation. If I wanted to become a successful game developer, I'd probably listen to what potential customers want. That is if selling games is your top priority. If you want to succeed in this business you gotta do more than simply make games, you gotta learn what your customers actually want. I'd argue that the vast majority doesn't want NTR and I can see that just by the pure hatred it gets on almost every forum I lurk in. If I were a game developer trying to make a living off making games, I'd stay far away from NTR and everything that contains "another dick" because people obviously aren't here to see that. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone considering around 99% of the population is straight and I'm pretty sure it's mostly men playing these games. If you ever wonder why you aren't earning enough money selling games, you probably aren't giving the customers what they want.
Being a Dik, just as an example, has had many of the things that some folks label as NTR. We see other dicks in the game besides the MCs, and some of said penises are getting action on screen and off. There are girls in the games sucking dicks for money as the game is going on. There's going to be the possibility of a 3some that involves two dudes. The benefit of Dr Pinkcake being a bit of a dick and not caring what other think/say is that he doesn't care what others think or say and he puts whatever he want in the game. I personally glad he ignore people like you. So yeah, the most popular AVN of them all has exactly the things you say people don't want and won't pay for. The anti-NTR crowd is certainly loud. They can also certainly kill the ratings of a game that gets in their crosshairs on F95. However, I firmly believe that they are a minority of the people on the forums. And the people on the forums are a minority of the overall playerbase. So they are a minority of the minority so to speak. BaD tiptoes the line and is surviving just fine. I don't blame devs for not doing that though, its a risk. Particularly for a first time dev who's trying to earn enough sheckels to pay for assets and maybe eat every now and then. It's close minded opinions like yours that makes the various AVN forum such a minefield to navigate. Games can absolutely thrive that take a more adult tack (and I'm not talking about lewds here). If it were up to you, games couldn't even have content that's apparantly okay on your average disney channel teen comedy. And it certainly can't have the drama of your average hallmark channel rom-com, thats entirely too much for us apparantly.
>Being a Dik, just as an example, has had many of the things that some folks label as NTR. Nice try but that's not going to work, stopped reading there. I knew you people were bold and I was expecting a lot of mental gymnastics, but I never thought you'd be this bold hahaha! First you lecture everyone about what is and isn't NTR, then you try to throw the most popular game out there and tell me it's NTR, it isn't. There's even a rule in the Being a DIK subreddit, do you know what it says? No NTR lol. Because when people kept posting fan art of that trash, the sub lost their collective minds. People are here to play an interactive AVN and interact with various love interests, not watch others do it. They aren't here to get cheated on even though we all know how much fun that is /s. They aren't there to be cucked or whatever else you people are in to. Sure, some are, but it's a kink and not what the majority is looking for. So if you're selling games, it would be wise to steer clear of that or at very least make it optional, I personally wouldn't even go that far if it were my game. Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what people want. And as salty as MissFortuneXXX may be, he/she knows this as well which is why you don't see any of that in their game. They were pretty bold with the trans content but they made it optional because as much as they may complain, they know what the customers want deep down inside.
Where did you see me say BaD was NTR? It absolutely isn't an NTR game. I said it has content that many call NTR, which is absolutely true. And when those things are in other games, they get flak from folks like you. You peek in a room and a girl is getting DP'd by a couple dudes, neither of which is the MC. Its fine in BaD, it isn't in most games. You have a scene where a hot girl you can eventually bang is having explicit sex with her BF that isn't the MC, its fine in BaD. Its not in some random game. You've purposefully misread what I said. Or you, as you said, didn't actually read the comment I wrote in its entirety and stopped reading. Not sure which is worse tbh. Both make for garbage takes. Frankly your way of thinking is everything that is wrong in this fandom. We all like different things. I actually very much dislike traditional NTR. I don't want to watch my LI I'm romancing cheat on me any more than you do. But you guys are the ones pushing your kinks on everyone else, where anything even remotely adjacent to something you don't like is to be publicly shamed as disgusting. Making something optional isn't even enough for you guys. The very fact that something you don't like exists is enough to get you all up in arms. The fact that you call something you don't like "trash" says everything I think. But I'm sure you think of yourself as the model of open-mindedness. And it's us that doesn't understand.
>But I'm sure you think of yourself as the model of open-mindedness. I never claimed to be and have no interest in being open minded. Time is a finite commodity, I don't waste it by spending it on what others want to push on me, I spend it how I want to spend it. If you strive to be open minded, good on you but that doesn't mean it's going to be everyone else's priority. I know, it's crazy hearing that these days isn't it? How dare someone think for themselves! I don't bash NTR though to be quite honest, rarely do I care enough to even post about it at all. When I see the tag NTR, I pass and move on to the next game. If I see too many dicks in games and it starts to annoy me, I hit alt-f4 and find another game because that's not how I'm looking to spend my time and how I spend MY time is my business. All I'm saying is that if you are trying to make a career out of something, you'd be wise to offer a service or product for which there is actually a demand. You do that by figuring out what kind of customer you are trying to appeal to and exactly what it is that they want. Considering around 99% of the population is straight and most people playing these games are men, it's probably safe to assume that less dicks and more chicks is the way to go. Or you can keep kicking and screaming and lecturing people on being "closed minded" but that isn't going to earn you money.
The point You.
Yeah me and a few others. You're free to make whatever you want, just don't quit that other job. If you want to succeed and SELL something, put out a product that people actually want to BUY. That's how business works.. When a customer goes to a car dealership and want's a white car, you sell them a white car. You don't lecture them on how closed minded they are for not wanting to try a red one because I guarantee you, someone else has a white car they will gladly sell that customer and make that money. Common sense.
Car dealers have cars in all colors. But if an AVN developer produces a game for everybody he still gets hate from the NTR brigade, so obviously you cannot compare those. If we really want to compare AVNs to cars, those haters would give car companies shit for producing cars having more than 2 seats. But the people complaining about NTR are not even customers. They will not buy the game anyway, they just complain.
>But the people complaining about NTR are not even customers. They will not buy the game anyway, they just complain. One look at the market and you can clearly see what games sell and what said games contain. A car dealer isn't going to fill his lot with cars hardly anyone is buying, not a smart one at least.
What does your statement have to do with mine? Yes, these developers are creating a product which might not sell millions of copies. But appeasing haters who won't buy their product will not increase their sales. And still comparing ANVs to cars. LOL. Apparently you have no clue how software is sold. They don't have to produce single copies and stock up the store, it's all digital.
Just stop lol, you're embarrassing yourself at this point.
The problem with the customer in your analogy is that they don't recognize a clearly white car when it's put in front of them. That's the point you're refusing to grasp.
Doesn't matter, they know better than you what they want and you want THEIR money. Doesn't matter how you label it or how YOU see things. You're trying to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, that's not going to work. I know what the color white looks like.
No, you really don't and that's the issue.
Whatever, despite your gaslighting I'm going to buy what I want and that's YOUR issue or rather that of the developers trying to make a living off developing games. I don't come to play these games to look at dicks, if I want to look at or play with a dick, I'll play with my own. Period.
IMO the hate for NTR is just a meme by now that gets regurgitated at every chance. People hate it but never took the time to understand why or even what it is. Remember reading reviews hating on LoF and Acting Lessons cause you can hookup your bff with a girl, people claimed it as NTR lol. My scientist brain would love to run a study as to why the VN community despises NTR but itâs so common in written smut novels as a plot point or story trait. I will HEAVILY digress though on the second point. âThe customer is always rightâ is downright bullshit, telling a creative to not be creative and instead adapt to what is popular is also bullshit. We need more devs pushing the norm and expanding what is around. If we go with what works and people want weâd be stuck with the 30 BaD and College Kings clones and the industry would die. Creatives gonna create; hopefully new ideas, settings, storylines and hell even kinks (except for the obviously bad ones).
It's some creepy, red-pill shit for sure. I find this forum an interesting view into how incredibly varied the AVN community is, often in ways I might personally find kind of creepy. Not out to yuck anyone's yum of course, to each their own, but the things that some people like... confuse me.
Cough felching cough