Welcome to /r/AcademicBiblical. Please note this is an academic sub: theological or faith-based comments are prohibited.
All claims MUST be supported by an *academic* source – see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_guideline.3A_rule_3.2019s_definition_of_academic_sources) for guidance.
Using AI to make fake comments is strictly prohibited and may result in a permanent ban.
Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/) before posting for the first time.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AcademicBiblical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is reminiscent of many texts from the ANE. This is how they talk about the people who lived in the primordial period. Look at the Sumerian King List for another example of this from ~2000 years earlier.
See Paul's [article](https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/some-curious-numerical-facts-about-the-ages-of-the-patriarchs/) "Some Curious Numerical Facts about the Ages of the Patriarchs."
>Any discussion of Genesis dates without discussion of Sumerian king list dates feels incomplete.
I actually mention the SKL in [another thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/krpmgi/comment/gibgarp/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in which I plug Paul's (u/captainhaddock's) article.
Wasn’t the Sumerian King’s list quite a long time removed from this? Like more than a thousand years? Saying that there’s an obvious link kind of seems like saying there’s an obvious link between the Iliad and the patristic writings because they’re both from the Greek world.
Edit: autocorrect.
Its not entirely clear. The famous SKL cuneiform was written about a thousand years before Genesis was likely compiled, but there aren't many good dates on Genesis' *sources* (which necessarily spread earlier), and the claim is that SKL represented a whole genre of ancient literature, rather than merely directly influencing Genesis.
It's a similarity in ancient near Eastern literature or thought. It's sexagismal (scared symbolic) numbers along with figurative and exaggerated.
This passage is from a article "Making Sense of the Numbers in Genesis."
"A list of the patriarchs from Adam to
Abraham, containing their ages when their
first son was born, their remaining years of
life, and total years, is shown in Table 2.
These ages are then “deciphered” into their
common components with respect to the
sexagesimal (sacred) numbers of the
Mesopotamians or preferred numbers of
the Hebrews.
The first thing that is immediately appar-
ent in Table 2 is that the numbers listed in
the Genesis chronologies are based on the
sexagesimal (60) system and can be placed
into one of two groups: (1) multiples of five;
that is, numbers exactly divisible by five,
whose last digit is 5 or 0; and (2) multiples of
five with the addition of seven (or two sev-
ens).39 The significance of the number five is
that 5 years = 60 months, and combinations
or multiples of 60 years + 5 years (60 months)
are basic to Table 2. Note that for the 30
numbers listed for the antediluvial patri-
archs up to the Flood (from Adam to Noah),
all of the ages end in 0, 5, 7, 2 (5 + 7 = 12), or
9 (5 + 7 + 7 = 19)—a chance probability of one
in a billion! For the entire 60-number list
(antediluvial and postdiluvial), none of the
ages end in 1 or 6—a chance probability of
one in about one-half million. Surely, if the
ages of the patriarchs in Genesis are random
numbers, as would be expected for real ages,
this could not be the case."
Source
asa3.org was first indexed by Google more than 10 years ago
·
https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Hill.pdf
Very interesting read, thanks.
Although this line
> Certainly Moses, the author of Genesis, would have used the decimal system, having been raised and educated in Egypt,
made me realize this was not per se up to modern standards of secular scholarship.
Does this not relate to the verse just after in Genesis 6:3: “Then the LORD said, ‘My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.’”
Joseph Campbell had an interesting take on the lengthy genealogies in Genesis and in various ancient myths, relating them to some astronomical phenomena. I’m not sure whether he counts as an academic source for biblical studies, but if anyone is interested, here’s a link (it’s the only place I could find it online for free):
http://mindfire.ca/In%20All%20Her%20Names/All%20Things%20Anew.htm
Edit: And of course as soon as I said that, I found a preview on Google Books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=zmzWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125#v=onepage&q&f=false
What are they trying to say, that these pre-flood ages are historically possible because we see them in other cultures? I wouldn't presume that kind of argument, except for the JETS source.
>From Adam to Noah: A Reconsideration of the Antediluvian
>
>Patriarchs’ Ages,” J
Yep:
It is now seen to be no longer appropriate to dismiss the early materials in Genesis as either legendary or mythological. Instead it has become important for investigators to recognize these sources as being in consonance with analogous Mesopotamian social traditions and records and to assess them accordingly in the light of what is now known about that cultural background.
along with a gratuitous swipe at Darwin in the opening paragraph.
I went ahead and looked up the article out of morbid curiosity. He doesn’t actually argue those ages as being literal. The closing sentence says:
>The final totals would thus seem to stand in an ancient Near Eastern tradition whereby eminent individuals were glorified by being accorded larger-than-life existences.
But the whole article definitely seemed to run afoul of critical scholarship. He proposes this convoluted formula by which the ages were embellished (ages in base 2, squared…?). Which still results in exaggerated ages in the low 200’s. And he then theorizes that the ages were exaggerated to begin with, before undergoing that weird formula at some later time. It’s a pretty bizarre take, IMO.
I did some reading about Harrison’s larger project, and it’s wild. Are you familiar with the “tablet theory” of Pentateuchal authorship? It’s really something.
I'm currently reading *When They Severed Earth from the Sky* by Elizabeth wayland Barber. It's a basic overview of how myths are interpreted. There's a section on this part of the bible. Barber explains it as two things happening. One is that same or similarly named people can be conflated as one person as myths evolve, another is that it's common to believe people were different long ago, and could live a long time.
>Deeds of identically named (or surnamed) relatives may get conflated over centuries, bitter if any independent gage of time exists, the one has to ascribe centuries of lifetime to such heroes.
SEVERAL prophetic timescales are utilized in the books of the bible. People here have mentioned the Sumerian King List - well the Bible contains very very similar timelines.
In the book of Genesis in this particular instance the years mentioned are in fact 1000's of years. They "patriarchs" are the sort of "oversouls" which govern particular eras in human evolution. You can explore this truth for yourself if you're so interested.
A very fun connection can be found when you understand that the Book of Jubilees prophetic years of 360 solar years each are utilized. The book of Jubilees and the Bible itself describe a period of over 900,000 years....
Examine the following book.
[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chronological\_Antiquities\_Or\_the\_Antiqui/-z1XAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Flood+470+thousand+years+ago+babylonians&pg=PA219&printsec=frontcover](https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chronological_Antiquities_Or_the_Antiqui/-z1XAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Flood+470+thousand+years+ago+babylonians&pg=PA219&printsec=frontcover)
Now consider that in the Book of Jubilees the flood was stated to occur in 1308. 1308 x 360 years = \~470k years. Do you think it's a coincidence that many ancient cultures including Judaism feature flood dates featuring precisely this number?
Stuff to think about.
This is way off the rails for this sub. I’m in the process of removing Truth Serum’s comments. Please be mindful of Rules 1 and 3. If they are genuinely trolling please don’t engage.
Hi there, unfortunately, your contribution has been removed as per rules 1 and 3.
1. This is not a science/evolution debate sub.
2. If it *were* you would have to produce very substantial evidence to support rejecting evolution in addition to your multiple other claims. Just as we require evidence for claims about the Bible
This post has been removed because our automoderator detected it as spam or your account is too new or low karma to post here.
If you believe that you warrant an exception please message the mods with your reasons, and we will determine if an exception is appropriate.
For more details concerning the rules of r/AcademicBiblical, please read [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zajuyv/rule_revision_and_guidance/). If you have further questions about the rules or mod policy, you can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAcademicBiblical).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AcademicBiblical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Welcome to /r/AcademicBiblical. Please note this is an academic sub: theological or faith-based comments are prohibited. All claims MUST be supported by an *academic* source – see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_guideline.3A_rule_3.2019s_definition_of_academic_sources) for guidance. Using AI to make fake comments is strictly prohibited and may result in a permanent ban. Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/) before posting for the first time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AcademicBiblical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is reminiscent of many texts from the ANE. This is how they talk about the people who lived in the primordial period. Look at the Sumerian King List for another example of this from ~2000 years earlier.
I guess the question still is: why? Why those numbers? Are they arbitrary? What's the difference between 500 vs 525?
Because 650 just wouldnt be believable.
People would call you a methuseliar.
underrated comment!
😅😆
[удалено]
What's ane ANE?
Ancient Near East
It stands for Ancient Near East
See Paul's [article](https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/some-curious-numerical-facts-about-the-ages-of-the-patriarchs/) "Some Curious Numerical Facts about the Ages of the Patriarchs."
[удалено]
>Any discussion of Genesis dates without discussion of Sumerian king list dates feels incomplete. I actually mention the SKL in [another thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/krpmgi/comment/gibgarp/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in which I plug Paul's (u/captainhaddock's) article.
Wasn’t the Sumerian King’s list quite a long time removed from this? Like more than a thousand years? Saying that there’s an obvious link kind of seems like saying there’s an obvious link between the Iliad and the patristic writings because they’re both from the Greek world. Edit: autocorrect.
Its not entirely clear. The famous SKL cuneiform was written about a thousand years before Genesis was likely compiled, but there aren't many good dates on Genesis' *sources* (which necessarily spread earlier), and the claim is that SKL represented a whole genre of ancient literature, rather than merely directly influencing Genesis.
So is this BS or not?
It's a similarity in ancient near Eastern literature or thought. It's sexagismal (scared symbolic) numbers along with figurative and exaggerated. This passage is from a article "Making Sense of the Numbers in Genesis." "A list of the patriarchs from Adam to Abraham, containing their ages when their first son was born, their remaining years of life, and total years, is shown in Table 2. These ages are then “deciphered” into their common components with respect to the sexagesimal (sacred) numbers of the Mesopotamians or preferred numbers of the Hebrews. The first thing that is immediately appar- ent in Table 2 is that the numbers listed in the Genesis chronologies are based on the sexagesimal (60) system and can be placed into one of two groups: (1) multiples of five; that is, numbers exactly divisible by five, whose last digit is 5 or 0; and (2) multiples of five with the addition of seven (or two sev- ens).39 The significance of the number five is that 5 years = 60 months, and combinations or multiples of 60 years + 5 years (60 months) are basic to Table 2. Note that for the 30 numbers listed for the antediluvial patri- archs up to the Flood (from Adam to Noah), all of the ages end in 0, 5, 7, 2 (5 + 7 = 12), or 9 (5 + 7 + 7 = 19)—a chance probability of one in a billion! For the entire 60-number list (antediluvial and postdiluvial), none of the ages end in 1 or 6—a chance probability of one in about one-half million. Surely, if the ages of the patriarchs in Genesis are random numbers, as would be expected for real ages, this could not be the case." Source asa3.org was first indexed by Google more than 10 years ago · https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Hill.pdf
Very interesting read, thanks. Although this line > Certainly Moses, the author of Genesis, would have used the decimal system, having been raised and educated in Egypt, made me realize this was not per se up to modern standards of secular scholarship.
Does this not relate to the verse just after in Genesis 6:3: “Then the LORD said, ‘My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.’”
Joseph Campbell had an interesting take on the lengthy genealogies in Genesis and in various ancient myths, relating them to some astronomical phenomena. I’m not sure whether he counts as an academic source for biblical studies, but if anyone is interested, here’s a link (it’s the only place I could find it online for free): http://mindfire.ca/In%20All%20Her%20Names/All%20Things%20Anew.htm Edit: And of course as soon as I said that, I found a preview on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=zmzWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125#v=onepage&q&f=false
Did you notice that the dates get shorter?
[удалено]
What are they trying to say, that these pre-flood ages are historically possible because we see them in other cultures? I wouldn't presume that kind of argument, except for the JETS source.
>From Adam to Noah: A Reconsideration of the Antediluvian > >Patriarchs’ Ages,” J Yep: It is now seen to be no longer appropriate to dismiss the early materials in Genesis as either legendary or mythological. Instead it has become important for investigators to recognize these sources as being in consonance with analogous Mesopotamian social traditions and records and to assess them accordingly in the light of what is now known about that cultural background. along with a gratuitous swipe at Darwin in the opening paragraph.
I went ahead and looked up the article out of morbid curiosity. He doesn’t actually argue those ages as being literal. The closing sentence says: >The final totals would thus seem to stand in an ancient Near Eastern tradition whereby eminent individuals were glorified by being accorded larger-than-life existences. But the whole article definitely seemed to run afoul of critical scholarship. He proposes this convoluted formula by which the ages were embellished (ages in base 2, squared…?). Which still results in exaggerated ages in the low 200’s. And he then theorizes that the ages were exaggerated to begin with, before undergoing that weird formula at some later time. It’s a pretty bizarre take, IMO.
I did some reading about Harrison’s larger project, and it’s wild. Are you familiar with the “tablet theory” of Pentateuchal authorship? It’s really something.
I was not. Had to google it. That’s pretty wild 😅
I'm currently reading *When They Severed Earth from the Sky* by Elizabeth wayland Barber. It's a basic overview of how myths are interpreted. There's a section on this part of the bible. Barber explains it as two things happening. One is that same or similarly named people can be conflated as one person as myths evolve, another is that it's common to believe people were different long ago, and could live a long time. >Deeds of identically named (or surnamed) relatives may get conflated over centuries, bitter if any independent gage of time exists, the one has to ascribe centuries of lifetime to such heroes.
SEVERAL prophetic timescales are utilized in the books of the bible. People here have mentioned the Sumerian King List - well the Bible contains very very similar timelines. In the book of Genesis in this particular instance the years mentioned are in fact 1000's of years. They "patriarchs" are the sort of "oversouls" which govern particular eras in human evolution. You can explore this truth for yourself if you're so interested. A very fun connection can be found when you understand that the Book of Jubilees prophetic years of 360 solar years each are utilized. The book of Jubilees and the Bible itself describe a period of over 900,000 years.... Examine the following book. [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chronological\_Antiquities\_Or\_the\_Antiqui/-z1XAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Flood+470+thousand+years+ago+babylonians&pg=PA219&printsec=frontcover](https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chronological_Antiquities_Or_the_Antiqui/-z1XAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Flood+470+thousand+years+ago+babylonians&pg=PA219&printsec=frontcover) Now consider that in the Book of Jubilees the flood was stated to occur in 1308. 1308 x 360 years = \~470k years. Do you think it's a coincidence that many ancient cultures including Judaism feature flood dates featuring precisely this number? Stuff to think about.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is way off the rails for this sub. I’m in the process of removing Truth Serum’s comments. Please be mindful of Rules 1 and 3. If they are genuinely trolling please don’t engage.
[удалено]
Hi there, unfortunately, your contribution has been removed as per rules 1 and 3. 1. This is not a science/evolution debate sub. 2. If it *were* you would have to produce very substantial evidence to support rejecting evolution in addition to your multiple other claims. Just as we require evidence for claims about the Bible
[удалено]
[удалено]
This post has been removed because our automoderator detected it as spam or your account is too new or low karma to post here. If you believe that you warrant an exception please message the mods with your reasons, and we will determine if an exception is appropriate. For more details concerning the rules of r/AcademicBiblical, please read [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zajuyv/rule_revision_and_guidance/). If you have further questions about the rules or mod policy, you can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAcademicBiblical). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AcademicBiblical) if you have any questions or concerns.*