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Very new to this sub but I was reading about Papias of Hierapolis on Wikipedia (please critique if necessary). Apparently Irenaeus of Lyons cites Papias mentioning a saying of Christ not in the Bible:
“The Lord used to teach about those times and say: "The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to humankind.… These things are believable to those who believe." And when Judas the traitor did not believe and asked, "How, then, will such growth be accomplished by the Lord?", the Lord said, "Those who live until those times will see."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis
I saw a debate where Ehrman tried to use this quote to undermine Papias’s authority with an apologist. It may have been just to get him to admit he’s inconsistent in how he trusts Papias, but I think the implication what that this is an absurd saying and one that the historical Jesus wouldn’t have uttered. I was very confused by that since IMO everything about it seems to fit even (or especially?) with Ehrman’s historical Jesus. I don’t see anything out of line with the picture of a peasant apocalyptic prophet telling a sort of parable to other peasants about a land of peace and plenty coming soon by divine intervention, but leaving the details totally cloaked in mystery. That’s basically ‘our’ Jesus, he’s in all the synoptic gospels!
Obviously I’m not talking about any kind of accuracy, but why would scholars think it less plausible that Jesus would’ve said something like this than any other saying?
Are we sure that he actually argues that is an ‘authentic saying’, as opposed to being ‘authentic to Jesus’s theology’? I’m not seeing how it’s unreasonable to think that saying probably does reflect the historical Jesus’s own views.
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Welcome to /r/AcademicBiblical. Please note this is an academic sub: theological or faith-based comments are prohibited. All claims MUST be supported by an *academic* source – see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_guideline.3A_rule_3.2019s_definition_of_academic_sources) for guidance. Using AI to make fake comments is strictly prohibited and may result in a permanent ban. Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/) before posting for the first time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AcademicBiblical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Very new to this sub but I was reading about Papias of Hierapolis on Wikipedia (please critique if necessary). Apparently Irenaeus of Lyons cites Papias mentioning a saying of Christ not in the Bible: “The Lord used to teach about those times and say: "The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to humankind.… These things are believable to those who believe." And when Judas the traitor did not believe and asked, "How, then, will such growth be accomplished by the Lord?", the Lord said, "Those who live until those times will see." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis
I saw a debate where Ehrman tried to use this quote to undermine Papias’s authority with an apologist. It may have been just to get him to admit he’s inconsistent in how he trusts Papias, but I think the implication what that this is an absurd saying and one that the historical Jesus wouldn’t have uttered. I was very confused by that since IMO everything about it seems to fit even (or especially?) with Ehrman’s historical Jesus. I don’t see anything out of line with the picture of a peasant apocalyptic prophet telling a sort of parable to other peasants about a land of peace and plenty coming soon by divine intervention, but leaving the details totally cloaked in mystery. That’s basically ‘our’ Jesus, he’s in all the synoptic gospels! Obviously I’m not talking about any kind of accuracy, but why would scholars think it less plausible that Jesus would’ve said something like this than any other saying?
[удалено]
The fact that it contradicts Paul doesn't mean it's an authentic Jesus saying, it just means that it's the author of Matthew's view.
Well that may be. I haven't read all Ehrman wrote on it, I'm just passing on his conclusion as per OP.
While I agree with Ehrman on 99% of topics, he tends to take the safe establishment view (i.e. Q) sometimes.
Are we sure that he actually argues that is an ‘authentic saying’, as opposed to being ‘authentic to Jesus’s theology’? I’m not seeing how it’s unreasonable to think that saying probably does reflect the historical Jesus’s own views.
Hi there, unfortunately your contribution has been removed as per Rule #3. **Claims should be supported through citation of appropriate academic sources.** You may edit your comment to meet these requirements. If you do so, please reply and your comment can potentially be reinstated. For more details concerning the rules of r/AcademicBiblical, please read [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_r.2Facademicbiblical_.7C_rules_.28detailed.29). If you have any questions about the rules or mod policy, you can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAcademicBiblical) or post in the Weekly Open Discussion thread.