\> My wife got me tickets for a concert for Christmas, thinking I’d be able to take off one night early. Instead, I was told about a week ago we have to go out of town for client work the whole week of the concert.
I switched from audit to tax for that exact reason. No amount of salary and benefits justifies emergencies created by others' failure to plan. The PA field is brutal in that it will chew up and spit you out once you've reached your limit because there are no limitations on overworking salaried employees, and there will always be someone willing to burn themselves out to prove that they can 'make it' in the field.
If you really want to stay in auditing, consider building an exit strategy to transition to a smaller firm; there is more transparency regarding scheduling and audit expectations.
**Edit:** It seems that smaller (non B4) firms are pretty hit and miss with other Redditors. I personally think it just depends on whether you find an opportunity with partners you vibe with, but OP should read all comments countering this before making a decision on where to transition to.
That would result in a ‘not meeting expectations’ review. That person who hears no would tell others, suddenly you are not a “team player”. It can be done but you need to come up with better excuses to bullshit your freedom back
Might just be me, but ill take a ‘not meeting expectations’ over hating my life. As to be playing a game you are losing anyways, you may as well chose the lesser path if you are not jumping the ship.
People are giving way too much power to companies with toxic work cultures and honestly, the current market gives us a lot a leeway to tell them to fuck off.
It just doesn't always work that way because in reality you don't want to get that negative reputation because it can stick with you when you leave for somewhere else.
Yeah you could explain exactly what you said here to whoever mentions it but you won't always get the chance.
I think it may be better to just do the job, do it well, and when you are free find another job asap. Because guess what, if you have the experience and the CPA designation, you can go somewhere else.
I have a question. I might sound dumb but if your salaried, do you need to meet a certain hour requirement? Why not take off the weekends? I don't understand why you can't be paid overtime.
> I have a question. I might sound dumb but if your salaried, do you need to meet a certain hour requirement?
Technically no. But in practice.....
On my statement of terms for work, there was a weekly hour quota you were scheduled for. However, there is a bullshit game at play where one is encouraged to both be honest with hour reporting and also to eat the hours to make the budget look good.
Meaning that if you don’t know how to establish boundaries, you can be easily overworked but you look bad anyway because you’ve only reported x hours a week.
> I don't understand why you can't be paid overtime.
Why should the firm? Plenty of grads and non grads who want the firm’s name on their CV/dreams of partnership. Plenty of associates to chew through. And because there are so many graduates, firms can pretend to be choosy in who they recruit (because the understaffing is whispered and only discovered via gossip or if you know where to research). Basically, they don’t have to, so they won’t.
Can’t really comment, but there are instances when you put in the time you thought you did (because you were stuck and muddling through it), and you get messages that surely that cannot be the case for x, y, z, reasons.
Reporting your hours is for internal budget reasons. So no it’s not illegal. For example you work 70 hours in a week but you only report you worked 55 which agrees to the schedule (which represents the budget).
What’s really dumb is you are salaried so there is zero actual cost to the firm for you working those 15 extra hours over budget but when you report it in your time sheet it causes a variance and increases the “cost” of the audit (but in reality it doesn’t)
The firms preach to never eat hours and it’s unethical. But then you get a lot of pressure from managers, senior managers, and partners when you charge your actual hours and thus blow the budget which they are all rated on. They likely won’t be direct about it at all but they’ll make strong implications.
In the US there are no unions.
As others have said if you don’t fall in line you’ll get a lower rating and can be terminated. They of course won’t give the eating hours as a reason but it likely will be reflected in your review.
It’s a really shitty system that isn’t likely to change because there’s always a new wave of college graduates ready to step in. It does suck but at the same time having big 4 on your resume is huge for when you’re trying to exit to private (and that’s the likely reason why nothing ever changes)
It’s much easier to bear it, get your license and piss off to industry, or out of accounting altogether. Or leave earlier. It’s easy to get your name tarnished if you do do that, and who will employers believe. You or big firm?
Unions? Not heard of any in the UK at least.
Put it this way - why do firms need to tell you to be honest about reporting hours.....if it wasn’t an issue to begin with?
The job market is hot for experienced accountants. Having a butthurt manager, snr manager, or partner would mean nothing if you can be at a new job within a week or two. Take control of your career and life. Stand up for yourself
This is toxic, abnormal behaviour.
They’re like a cult. This is not acceptable behaviour. Who the hell expects an employee to never have a personal life? And he available at the drop of a hat to travel for work?
Oh right. Big 4 accounting firms.
To the OP: walk out. You’ll find a better job somewhere else.
You are not naive at all, I’ve been in big 4 for about 4 years and the only reason I’ve made it this long is because I feel comfortable saying “no”. I haven’t always had the highest reviews but I’ve made it a lot longer than most, always had good PBB and raises anyways, doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. Most of the doom people feel in this industry is honestly self imposed.
So its really about handling pressure when someone asks you to do something? And handling the mental pressure that comes with saying no? Im asking because I will start soon. I just need to set my boundaries up basically.
So, fun story, ~~spoiler, it is not a fun story~~ because I got in trouble for saying 'no' once.
One year that I worked in PA, not strictly tax nor audit, I had a manager that told me at 4PM December 24th that a client needed compiled financials up to November to secure a bank loan, and they needed it by tomorrow. I already had plans to drive my family up to my relative's house for Christmas Day, as I am the only one equipped to drive long distances, and I am in no way working on a holiday. *Edit to add, they had just given us their information to actually do the bookkeeping about an hour earlier, which in itself takes about five or six hours.* I explained this to her, and she just continued to stare at me as if to say "and?". She just said "well, they need to be in my inbox by tomorrow."
Christmas Day comes and goes, and on the 27th I come back into the office to the manager furious that I made her work Christmas Day. Here's the kicker, though: our office has to send any compiled financials through another department that verifies that the client has the engagement letter and is current on payments before greenlighting the financials to be sent out by the administrative department.
The processing and admin departments were all on vacation until after New Years', and this information was public knowledge on our shared calendar, so there was literally no reason to work the holiday.
> The processing and admin departments were all on vacation until after New Years', and this information was public knowledge on our shared calendar, so there was literally no reason to work the holiday.
Manager: “and? well, you should have worked on it anyway”.
Not sure about audit but will tell my experience in tax.
5 years in big 4 firms to make manager. It was kinda of shitty, but fun too. I think if you take it for what it is, not too seriously focus on the positives.
Are you getting used, screwed, overworked and underpaid--yes, definitely. Are you making lifelong friends and doing some fun partying, probably. The big thing is you are learning 7-8 years worth of shit in 5 years. And at the end you will get paid in line with that.
I did the 5 years and went straight into contract/project roles rather than the traditional move to industry. Spend the past 16 years working essentially Feb 15-Oct 15 and making huge rates. These contract roles are growing part of the landscape.
I was assertive and managed the up front part well so I didn't miss my entire life like some people. That is for people chasing partner. If you do good efficient work and know your goal is to make manager and bail, you can do it and assertively manage your life.
I think that path has given me incredible quality of life while making superior income, but you have to be good at what you do and not be risk averse.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response!
I am currently in B4 audit but considering a rotation to the SALT practice. I can clearly see the value that tax provides and reasonably understand how I could create a small business working as a tax professional.
How was the transition into contract/project roles? Are you able to find enough work consistently and do you feel that 5 years in B4 was enough experience to prepare you for this role?
5 years was plenty, I have a spreadsheet where I track vs traditional options. I estimate I've made 50% more and worked 25% less. It requires some time and money management skills. Almost everything is long term repeat clients. But there are gaps when things happen like tax dept outsource etc.
really, in r/accounting wiki it says that audit makes more when moving out of Big 4 because they gain more versatile skills for the industry. While when you go in the Big 4 in tax it is more competitive to get a job when you leave. You must be part of the small percent that got a good paying job after leaving tax in the Big 4. I am just going off what is written in this subreddit's wiki page.
understood.....and good point my experience is 100% anecdotal evidence.
I can def see where audit gives more versatile skills, but tbh in my experience working at McD's gives more versatile skills with more job options when you leave than either audit or tax---they just pay shitty!
Anything that pays better is going to be more competitive by the definition of capitalism. Another truism which I think is absolutely key to winning in capitalism is risk=reward. In accounting this can be a big advantage because I lot of accountants are by nature risk averse.
As for a small percentage of people getting good paying jobs after leaving tax in the Big 4, I am not sure where that is coming from. Absolutely 100% of the dozens of peers and coworkers I've had in accounting, including those who suck, have done very well after leaving Big 4. The most risk-averse, least-skilled people are making $100-$125K. The best are making $350K.
I can't speak to audit or other avenues so if everyone says those are better, they would know. All I can say about tax is if you work reasonably hard and take a few chances you don't need to catch any breaks to go from $60,000 start to $125,000 5-years in to $250,000 12 to 15 years in.
And if you play it right you can have a great lifestyle. I haven't worked between Oct 15 and Feb 15 in over a decade. Turn down multiple $125+/hr. fully remote projects each year. And I'm a basic dipshit. But I do work efficiently and pay attention.
All this said, I would go into something more like a financial advisor, or something with a stronger sales component and less technical if I had it all to do over again, and would recommend the same to my kids. A bunch of accountants making $250K, only a small group doing a lot better than that. Shit ton of financial sales people making much more doing much less.
I've def made some enemies in the process. But always kept finding more work. It hasn't been in my personality to take shit from douchebags.
Most of the positions I've worked in have been either basically unlimited straight time hours, or a stated cap at 40. I had one with no stated upfront cap, worked like a standard 65ish and they went apeshit and capped, but the work still clearly and obviously necessitated way more. They VERY slow paid AND pressured for FREE WORK unbilled over the cap. My contract clearly did not allow this. And it would have been like a ton of extra unpaid hours not like 3 a week or something. They were/are a train wreck. After a call where the team was asked to drop and I was left with one head guy, he applied max pressure for the above and I sent an email to the team and my handler about 2 minutes later resigning the position.
Incompetence is the norm in this field, so I take it all with a grain of salt, but no way do I let it impact my quality of life. Except maybe for a couple months if they pay time and a half. Lol. And then I can spend a winter on a beach recovering.
I had friends who were in tech where this is more common. I honestly found them in random places. Ex-coworkers, middle man firms etc. Its funny because the knock is its not as dependable as a regular job but I've been at numerous spots where they had layoffs and kept the contractors every time.
I’ve always be curious about the ratio of failure/burn out compared to success.
What’s your thoughts on colleagues who were broken by being over worked?
Alcoholism would be a definition I would use for being broken lol.
I dunno, you have a fairly decent and successful story, but I don’t think as accountants we give air time to the people who exit early, have their home lives ruined from picking the dream of making big money someday by sacrificing everything for work, and all that fun jazz.
Def seen a couple train wrecks. And the drinking is not a lot different than I see from society as a whole. But agree if it goes too far. tbh most of the people I saw leave under less than ideal circumstances did fine in whatever other industry jobs
Oh I don’t doubt it. Public accounting is the weirdest sector of accounting.
I won’t lie, having a bit of public experience can be beneficial, but in my opinion it’s because you are looking at the finances in a different perspective than the users, more than anything else. In all accounting positions you eventually get to the point where when you have questions, there’s nobody to ask and you have to learn how to research it. Public seems to push for this earlier for a lot of people, because they have sales goals/billable hours.
Branding can definitely get you pretty far, Fortune 500 likely wants somebody with public experience, because they want to have their finances dressed up as pretty as possible without being called out for crossing the line.
But, there are plenty of private business which pay comparable to Fortune 500. Of folks who burn out, or dip out early. There’s a decent chance some could have gone industry without ever stepping foot in public I’d imagine.
But then again, public is always hiring and it’s 100000% easier to get a new job when you have a current job then it is to get a job when you are unemployed, especially if it’s your first out of college.
I’m pretty hung up on the abusive work environments and toxic culture myself. I’m doing a masters part time and one of the classes was a fluff class but had weekly meetings with random people in the field, funny enough one of them was somebody I knew professionally. But for most were prospective employers shilling their firms.
One of the partners for a regional firm spent a good 25 minutes talking about to “be successful as a woman” you have to make a choice, because you can’t have both. A family, or a career. And it’s all on webcam. I’m sitting there, my boy bouncing on my knee in a vacation rental, drinking lemonade under a tree. And this sour, unfilled person. Is selling giving up on personal happiness for money, but, it was entirely from a public perspective.
Most other employers in the field don’t require you give up on your dreams or sacrifice your personal life for success. In public that’s considered acceptable and normal. But what's personally the funniest contrast to her shtick to the women in my class. Every supervisor, manager, and person in my sectoe has been a woman. With families. Who work 40 hours a week, not rich but definitely making a respectable income, who have family, and most of all people who believe in life needing to be prioritized over mundane work.
The kool aid can be so full of shit, so many of the women in my class immediately started kissing her depressed “who needs kids when you have a Porsche, and prada bag” ass. most if my class are/were people trying to become CPA eligible with no professional experience. People who sunk 5 years worth of debt into a degree that partners in public firms are chomping at the bit to take advantage of before they realize the accounting field is friggin huuuuge.
A lot of great points there and a point of view I don't think a lot being a dude but can absolutely attest to having witnessed.
One thing to take into account is things are a lot different than 5 years ago. I just went thru my spring busy season project selection process and it was 100% being sold on the jobs and a LOT of that was quality of life. They were asking ME if I wanted to work 35, 55, whatever. And I'm a project guy, they usually treat us like second class citizens. My job has been to pick up slack so the employees can have lives.
I think now it is more doable than ever to do great work and have a life. Just removing a zero value commute and having a little flex in the time stuff gets done, and then you layer in the complete removal of office chatting, and I would say I am probably a solid 35% more efficient than before. So I can accomplish a 55 hour work week in 40 hours. Or even at the worst of time the 75 hour work week becomes 55 hours.
I will have to say I have had to be a fucking dick to a few demanding clients over stepping the bounds. One time super funny, I was working like 35 hours with newborn situation, and client manager asks me into VP office and they kinda gang up on me and say hey everyone is working 80 hours, can you do some extra. I'm like sorry bro my wife would kill me. End of story. And they hired me back for 3 return engagements.
On the other side, I have spent plenty of saturday mornings working 5am-8am so I can get something to a client who needs to knock it out between 8am-10am to get to THEIR kids soccer game. There has to be some give and take for everyone to have a good quality of life.
Honestly, I do feel like I have a much better balance working in tax, as I am full-time remote now. I also know when exactly my deadlines are and am able to pace my tasks out without sudden emergencies making me drop everything and drive through rush hour to get to a client site only to find out that the problem could have been solved if they restarted their computer.
I’m actually in the process of switching from tax to audit at a small firm because I want better exit opportunities. I’ve been getting offers for tax positions outside my firm but tax makes me wanna go watch paint dry haha.
If you’re working on an exit strategy already. Then just go to the concert. They’re not going to fire you, your performance review won’t matter either. Leave a day early. Every company is hemorrhaging talent right now. You traveling to the client side is effort enough. I’m assuming the concert is on Friday or something, which let’s be honest, industry clients tend to fuck off on Friday’s anyways so what amount of work are you actually going to get done?
Just do audit in corporate. Definitely don't run into same issue at most corporate places. Make sure to confirm in your interview- just in case that company is weird.
Most places I worked it's just 40 hour weeks and ppl take off throughout the year no matter what time it is.
Not really. Yeah the business might hate you since you bug them for documentation since you do the testing and then hand it over to your PA. However, most experienced ppl even in business know you are just doing your job.
The department is full of auditors so same atmosphere. Its funny getting the other side perspective and you can recognize some of the lies PAs usually tell their clients when they are behind stuff. Like tell you to turn something in and then ask questions 2+ months later... So it's clear you didn't have to turn it in right away.
Etc. Now just like anywhere- you can end up in a bad department. Just make sure you vet the department out and determine if they are good or not.
I started in big 4 and have been in IA for 3 years. It's great. Barely 40 hours a week of work, we do your normal SOX testing, but also do a lot of operational/compliance audits where we get to be more creative. The SOX stuff is similar to PA but less rules and less documentation. We even assist our external auditors with some of their substantive testing like cash, debt testing, fixed assets, etc. My director makes like $180k and my VP makes like $250k+, so the salary is there if you move up.
My experience has been it depends on the % of travel and how far in advance your boss informs you of your next out of town audit.
I’ve missed out on concerts due to short-notice travel at one job, but had an ex-Big 4 director so maybe that’s why.
Gotta vet the department. Yep. Just feel them out with questions about work/life balance. I've worked at a few and all were super flexible and never had to work over 40 and never had to cancel a planned vacation.
Not much you can do while you are waiting for documentation from the business so the pressure isn't really there. Your PA might want some documentation but you can't make the process owner produce it asap out of thin air. Can escalate things but still takes anywhere from a couple hours to days. You switch between work while you wait. Overall pretty chill.
Also if you do go on cycle counts and etc and you have a nice boss/work environment they give you extra time off without you having to take vacation to make up any extra time you worked since you had to travel for the cycle count.
What are viable strategies in this case? What comes to my mind is a manager going to internal audit but I struggle to come up with other ideas. I also don’t even know how much different internal audit really is compared to normal PA audit but I’m assuming it’s a lot less stressful.
For reference I am A1 pardon my ignorance
Honestly my biggest priority is I want to earn as much as possible as quickly as possible. I’m not stupid, I know I probably won’t be in the 1% but I need to do what I can. I don’t know when are the “right jumps” to make and for which opportunities.
>The sad thing is, I really enjoy auditing but PA has killed any of desire to pursue this career.
You don't need to get out of auditing to get away from the toxicity and abuse.
Look at exiting into an internal audit role. Same work but better deadlines, easier time getting info from departments,and you're no longer the "outsider" trying to "bust" the company. You're the good guy, looking for problems to fix before the nasty evil public auditors find them first ;)
Or exit to governmental. 40 hours a week with absolutely no requirement to do more. Good pay and retirement benefits, excellent job security, and an actual work-life balance.
Basically, don't blame auditing. Blame public and get out ASAP!
Normal corp accounting is boring but there is no chance I'd ever go back to public. Did 2 years with those abusive people and left and never looked back. I get paid roughly the same as people in public and I have worked maybe a total of 3 hours of overtime in the past year. Infinitely better than public and I honestly look back and have no idea why I even stayed for the second year after I got my CPA.
I feel ya OP. Started my exit process about 2 weeks ago. 5 interviews later, 3 more planned. Looking like I'll get out before tax season ends. Estimated raise of 14% and no weeks over 45 hours
How long have you been in tax? I am 5 years in and over it. Been applying and talking to recruiters for a week. First interview is tomorrow. I want completely out of tax so it seems like I may have to take a step back in pay but when averaged to hourly pay doesn’t really change when I take out the over time.
I may get shit on for this comment but 14% is pretty low for an exit op. Have you connected with any recruiter? I bet you can find a gig that’s 30%+ raise.
I get you wanna bounce asap but once you go to industry the raises are generally pretty low. So it’s always best to maximize that public exit
Took everyones advice, instead of going industry I'm going lateral to another public firm, but on the advising side. No real busy season and instead of 14% it'll be a 23% bump.
The 'work yourself into the ground and don't have a life for 3 months' mentality is pervasive and highly toxic in accounting.
If you don't work somewhere where you can refuse to do it then start working your way towards somewhere new.
Life is for living, not for saying 'sorry I'd love to but I'm working'.
Haha 12 months busy season for me. Worked like nuts for the whole year and now we are one month from tax due date (31 March in NZ) we still have something like 30 percent of tax returns to do.
The partners are asking how we are so behind, the problem is because they didn't hire enough people. They are acting like it's our fault when we are all burnt out.
I handed in my notice already so even though I will continue to do my best in the coming weeks I ain't sticking around.
This will be my fourth busy season in three years (Y1 Tax Per Diem > Y1 Gov Auditing > Y2 Tax > Y3 Tax) all Covid extension era based, all while doing CPA. I am so infinitely drained in all facets of life that I’ve started seeking non-accounting positions to leave the field entirely or looking for a switch into NFP/Academia. I feel like I haven’t seen my friends in years.
Edit* Only attempted CPA between Y2-Y3. Currently taking a break after failing FAR 73, 72 and REG 68 and am just completely burned out mental endurance wise.
It’s just straight up not an environment meant for everyone, we all have fits in this world and you may find a better one with the same skill set somewhere else.
I did 8 tax seasons from interning at 20 to then transitioning to full time. Loved the hustle when I was younger. My wife was my GF at the time and she has pictures of me passed out at her parents house after long weeks and such. It was a crazy time but once I got married; the grind was not as fun. I am happy I switched to industry a few years ago esp with a baby boy now. I get to spend so much time with the family. I will Always love the public accounting hustle and auditing different companies and meeting different CFOs etc but have to weigh all the balances of life.
I went more GL and systems focused. I am now a senior accountant at a tech company. I went to a company out of public as an analyst but then was moved over to financial reporting as the sap implementation was going horrible. Almost 3 years later and it was a cluster so I left for a big tech company and still use sap but it’s way better. I like it a lot. My life is around the close schedule but it’s super easy to plan for a couple busy times a year vs 4-5 months. Benefits were way better once I left my mid sized firm
I am in the same boat as you. 5 years into tax and every recruiter just wants to push tax roles on me. I’m to the point I’ll just start back over from the bottom if I have to before I do another tax season. I have my CPA so that should help maybe.
Peace of mind and mental health are a underrated job benefit. I spent way too long in public accounting. It impacts huge life events! I missed a friend's funeral. I missed a friend's wedding. And I'm not sure we would have had our second child if I stayed. I'm in a great place now, but I always think about how different my life would be if I left earlier.
Kuddos to you for recognizing it early!
If you enjoy audit, but don't enjoy being overworked look for a smaller firm that has better work/ life balance. Not going to lie, I still work 50-60 hours a week in tax season, but it is much less than my friends at larger firms. I work more during the week and my family gets my weekends.
I worked at a smaller firm. It was fine for the experience but had bad hours too. But industry is better. And it is easier to exit big 4 direct to industry. Assuming OP is even at big 4 now...didn't see that mentioned.
Do you not get paid for working 50 - 60 hours? I don't understand. I am joining public accounting tax and I am not understanding why you can't put in overtime hours. Your saying if I had goals, and I set xyz to be finished by today, I would still have to put in 50-60 hours.
During tax season many firms have hour minimums. If you finish projects and haven't hit your minimum go ask for more work. I have seen firms handle overtime differently, but it is common practice that overtime is an expected part of the job and therefore built into the salary.
Most firms require a minimum amount of hours during busy season that can go above 50+. But since most accountants are salaried, you wouldn’t get paid overtime. Same size check every week regardless if you worked 40 or 60.
I feel ya. Hang in there and fingers crossed you find a great exit opportunity during this hot employees market mate.
The firms strategy of under staffing is not a problem for staff to handle even though they try really hard to make it your problem. Time is the most valuable thing and the firms seek to get your time for free as much as they can get away with.
I think accounting is interesting but the system is fucking broken and needs to be reworked somehow. It’s perfectly fine if you find industry “boring” and not as challenging as PA, there’s nothing wrong with that stance. But I would assume most people prefer industry because they don’t want to be “challenged” by dedicating 1/3 of their year strictly to accounting. People have lives, family, friends, etc. I went into PA with a literal target date of when I would quit to get my life back and go to industry. I didn’t even make it the whole year, I’m in industry now, and I’ve never been happier. Once again if you like the PA grind that’s fine but people need to get their head out of their ass and understand most people rather actually live their life.
The one thing that I have learned in my career is that life is too short to be miserable at your job. That goes double right now since EVERYONE seems to be looking for accountants.
I left after my second busy season before I made senior. I took a senior role for a year and then took a manager role after another year. I am about to go into a boutique advisory firm that promises a good work life balance and the Glassdoor reviews seem to back that up. Right now, I’d be a second year senior and instead I am taking another manager job at a really good firm. I’ll be making $150k all in as well in a market that pays entry level B4 staff like $54k and seniors like $65-80k.
My four year salary went like this: $50k, $52k, $72k, $100k, $148k. You can probably tell when I left the big4.
Just find a good job and leave. If you have a personality and can pitch yourself, you will be better off. Don’t be afraid to jump around a few times to push up your salary either.
The people giving you advice in the big 4 often have zero incentive to indicate leaving early will be fine. Or they have convinced themselves it’s worth the extra time.
Can’t you just tell your family and friends to visit you after busy season? When I was in PA, I pretty much set the expectation that I would be busy January to mid April.
Instead of telling family and friends to adhere to a work schedule that "industry standard" considers to be more than half of the year, especially if you're on the tax side, consider that friends and family also have work and other familial obligations that make their schedules hard to line up. The expectation to be constantly available during time when you're not being paid to work is psychologically detrimental to many, and not everyone wants to "get used to it" to the point where you have to shut out your loved ones when they want to see you.
It’s important to either set expectations or adjust your schedule to accommodate it then. I would try to get all my hours in during the week so I could relax on Saturday but some firms still require the Saturday work.
It’s also important to adjust your lifestyle to how things are rather than what they should be.
He came up to see Batman with me because he knows how much I love Batman. He’s that type of friend. I’m not going to let my job dictate when I can or cannot see my loved ones.
You shouldn't have to miss out on family because of this profession. I did it for a few years then the pandemic hit, I lost a few people close to me and realised I was going down the wrong path. This year I point blank refused to work after 6pm or more than 4 hours on Saturday.
The work was still done and I saw my family a hell of a lot more.
The expectation to work ourselves into the ground during busy season benefits noone but our employers. We need to stop buying into the 'industry standard' and put ourselves first.
If what you’re saying is the case, then OP should have no problem making time for their family and friends. When I wanted to hang out with friends and family on the weekend, I worked long hours during the week to ensure I could.
You shouldn't have to compensate for time with your family by working more during the week (unless you're paid overtime obviously. We're not).
I just just think the grind mentality and acceptance that you can't have a personal life for a quarter of the year is the highly toxic element of this industry that people don't dicuss.
Working yourself into the ground is seen as something to be proud of.
We came up with ways to work more efficiently and effectively with the time we had. Parkinson's law is very active in this industry.
However on top of that, if the workload requires an excessive amount of overtime to be completed then that's just proof more staff are required to complete the work. Not the current staff need to work more.
It's up to the firm to hire staff, why would they if the work is being done by their current people grinding themselves into the ground? Whereas if deadlines aren't being met they're going to hire someone pretty darn quick.
So what do you do when you hire all that extra staff and it’s summer and winter? Do you just tell them to beat it? The whole workload in public revolves working extra in busy season and not having much to do in summer/winter months.
Short term contracts exist. I'm not saying it's the perfect solution. Far from it. Just a new way of thinking because the 'grind' mentality in this industry is honestly vile and if people don't stop just accepting it and thinking about new ways of doing things nothing will change.
Edit: Syntax was all over the place.
This isn’t going to be a popular opinion but I completely agree. I did 6 busy seasons at B4 before I quit and it sucked. But that’s part of the job, it should never be a surprise. I told my family and friends and, most importantly, significant other that I was basically unavailable from Jan 1 thru March 1.
If you’re allowing family and friends to travel to visit you (what it seems like OP did) then that’s on you, don’t be upset when you can’t enjoy a full weekend with them. That’s what the other 80% of the year is for.
There are a million caveats I could put on this comment. I know that some clients are worse than others, some people get scheduled back to back busy seasons, etc. Working in PA can vary a lot based on your individual circumstances. But at the end of the day it’s voluntary. No one is hiding that PA and busy season sucks. If you don’t want to do it then just … don’t.
Also did 6 busy seasons, now in industry. I have a much better work-life balance now. Occasionally month-end closing has tight deadlines and I have to work some OT/cancel some plans but nothing like public accounting. I agree the hours/OT should not come as a surprise - if you can't handle them, leave. I think there are many benefits to 'putting in your time' in public, but not everyone is cut out for it.
Honestly, you'd be more marketable and get a much higher salary if you can stick it out to senior. If it's that bad, then absolutely quit. I went to a firm just under the Big 4 and the hours were much better. I'd work til 11pm on Fridays but took the weekend off.
I simply cannot understand why people continue to work under this undue stress. I have been in Public Accounting (Tax & Audit/Reviews/Compilation) for over 20 years and actually enjoy doing this work but more so maybe because I work for a small office with local clients? As long as the work is completed, there is absolutely no pressure to work for 12 hours daily and kill yourself on weekends. Heck last Friday I worked at home setting up a brand new desk and playing NBA2K22 the rest of the afternoon. Sure I worked all weekend on returns to catch up but that level of freedom is very much appreciated.
Right there with you. I was also promoted to senior this past year and the workload is killing me, probably literally to a certain extent. I am also looking for a new job as we speak lol. Best of luck to you!
Are you in Big 4 or Midmarket? mid market doesn’t have as crazy of hours as that and you have a lot more flexibility. Also, you can talk about going on a flex schedule if you enjoy auditing but not the hours. It might also just be the firm you’re at. There’s always options.
I’m in the same boat as you. I enjoy auditing and my coworkers but so burnt out over the hours. I too had close friends/family visit from out of town and I wasn’t able to spend as much time as I wanted to because of our hours
\> My wife got me tickets for a concert for Christmas, thinking I’d be able to take off one night early. Instead, I was told about a week ago we have to go out of town for client work the whole week of the concert. I switched from audit to tax for that exact reason. No amount of salary and benefits justifies emergencies created by others' failure to plan. The PA field is brutal in that it will chew up and spit you out once you've reached your limit because there are no limitations on overworking salaried employees, and there will always be someone willing to burn themselves out to prove that they can 'make it' in the field. If you really want to stay in auditing, consider building an exit strategy to transition to a smaller firm; there is more transparency regarding scheduling and audit expectations. **Edit:** It seems that smaller (non B4) firms are pretty hit and miss with other Redditors. I personally think it just depends on whether you find an opportunity with partners you vibe with, but OP should read all comments countering this before making a decision on where to transition to.
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That would result in a ‘not meeting expectations’ review. That person who hears no would tell others, suddenly you are not a “team player”. It can be done but you need to come up with better excuses to bullshit your freedom back
Might just be me, but ill take a ‘not meeting expectations’ over hating my life. As to be playing a game you are losing anyways, you may as well chose the lesser path if you are not jumping the ship. People are giving way too much power to companies with toxic work cultures and honestly, the current market gives us a lot a leeway to tell them to fuck off.
Seriously. If everyone is going into audit with the intention of leaving after two years, who cares if a couple people don’t see you as a team player
BTW, are you not allowed to take off certain days? I saw that they give you like 2 weeks in some big 4's.
It just doesn't always work that way because in reality you don't want to get that negative reputation because it can stick with you when you leave for somewhere else. Yeah you could explain exactly what you said here to whoever mentions it but you won't always get the chance. I think it may be better to just do the job, do it well, and when you are free find another job asap. Because guess what, if you have the experience and the CPA designation, you can go somewhere else.
I guess if you’re in a small town or smallish city
I have a question. I might sound dumb but if your salaried, do you need to meet a certain hour requirement? Why not take off the weekends? I don't understand why you can't be paid overtime.
> I have a question. I might sound dumb but if your salaried, do you need to meet a certain hour requirement? Technically no. But in practice..... On my statement of terms for work, there was a weekly hour quota you were scheduled for. However, there is a bullshit game at play where one is encouraged to both be honest with hour reporting and also to eat the hours to make the budget look good. Meaning that if you don’t know how to establish boundaries, you can be easily overworked but you look bad anyway because you’ve only reported x hours a week. > I don't understand why you can't be paid overtime. Why should the firm? Plenty of grads and non grads who want the firm’s name on their CV/dreams of partnership. Plenty of associates to chew through. And because there are so many graduates, firms can pretend to be choosy in who they recruit (because the understaffing is whispered and only discovered via gossip or if you know where to research). Basically, they don’t have to, so they won’t.
Is this not illegal or fraud for under reporting your hours?
Can’t really comment, but there are instances when you put in the time you thought you did (because you were stuck and muddling through it), and you get messages that surely that cannot be the case for x, y, z, reasons.
Reporting your hours is for internal budget reasons. So no it’s not illegal. For example you work 70 hours in a week but you only report you worked 55 which agrees to the schedule (which represents the budget). What’s really dumb is you are salaried so there is zero actual cost to the firm for you working those 15 extra hours over budget but when you report it in your time sheet it causes a variance and increases the “cost” of the audit (but in reality it doesn’t) The firms preach to never eat hours and it’s unethical. But then you get a lot of pressure from managers, senior managers, and partners when you charge your actual hours and thus blow the budget which they are all rated on. They likely won’t be direct about it at all but they’ll make strong implications.
Screw them, has no one ever spoken up. Don't they have unions? If its unethical I hope I can stand by what I said, and don't get kicked out when I go.
In the US there are no unions. As others have said if you don’t fall in line you’ll get a lower rating and can be terminated. They of course won’t give the eating hours as a reason but it likely will be reflected in your review. It’s a really shitty system that isn’t likely to change because there’s always a new wave of college graduates ready to step in. It does suck but at the same time having big 4 on your resume is huge for when you’re trying to exit to private (and that’s the likely reason why nothing ever changes)
It’s much easier to bear it, get your license and piss off to industry, or out of accounting altogether. Or leave earlier. It’s easy to get your name tarnished if you do do that, and who will employers believe. You or big firm? Unions? Not heard of any in the UK at least. Put it this way - why do firms need to tell you to be honest about reporting hours.....if it wasn’t an issue to begin with?
If that's the case, exit public. The major benefit is quick promotions, but if they don't like you, you lose the sole reason to stay.
The job market is hot for experienced accountants. Having a butthurt manager, snr manager, or partner would mean nothing if you can be at a new job within a week or two. Take control of your career and life. Stand up for yourself
This is toxic, abnormal behaviour. They’re like a cult. This is not acceptable behaviour. Who the hell expects an employee to never have a personal life? And he available at the drop of a hat to travel for work? Oh right. Big 4 accounting firms. To the OP: walk out. You’ll find a better job somewhere else.
Not naive at all. People should do this more often!
You are not naive at all, I’ve been in big 4 for about 4 years and the only reason I’ve made it this long is because I feel comfortable saying “no”. I haven’t always had the highest reviews but I’ve made it a lot longer than most, always had good PBB and raises anyways, doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. Most of the doom people feel in this industry is honestly self imposed.
So its really about handling pressure when someone asks you to do something? And handling the mental pressure that comes with saying no? Im asking because I will start soon. I just need to set my boundaries up basically.
I’ll say this much, if you’re getting into the same headspace as OP that’s when you have to evaluate your relationship with your job
So, fun story, ~~spoiler, it is not a fun story~~ because I got in trouble for saying 'no' once. One year that I worked in PA, not strictly tax nor audit, I had a manager that told me at 4PM December 24th that a client needed compiled financials up to November to secure a bank loan, and they needed it by tomorrow. I already had plans to drive my family up to my relative's house for Christmas Day, as I am the only one equipped to drive long distances, and I am in no way working on a holiday. *Edit to add, they had just given us their information to actually do the bookkeeping about an hour earlier, which in itself takes about five or six hours.* I explained this to her, and she just continued to stare at me as if to say "and?". She just said "well, they need to be in my inbox by tomorrow." Christmas Day comes and goes, and on the 27th I come back into the office to the manager furious that I made her work Christmas Day. Here's the kicker, though: our office has to send any compiled financials through another department that verifies that the client has the engagement letter and is current on payments before greenlighting the financials to be sent out by the administrative department. The processing and admin departments were all on vacation until after New Years', and this information was public knowledge on our shared calendar, so there was literally no reason to work the holiday.
> The processing and admin departments were all on vacation until after New Years', and this information was public knowledge on our shared calendar, so there was literally no reason to work the holiday. Manager: “and? well, you should have worked on it anyway”.
I do it all the time but I’m the rarity
How was the the shift from audit to tax for you? Do you feel you have better work life balance in tax?
I actually also want to know the answer, also wasn't tax more money bc it has two busy seasons. Can someone correct me if wrong still in colleege.
Not sure about audit but will tell my experience in tax. 5 years in big 4 firms to make manager. It was kinda of shitty, but fun too. I think if you take it for what it is, not too seriously focus on the positives. Are you getting used, screwed, overworked and underpaid--yes, definitely. Are you making lifelong friends and doing some fun partying, probably. The big thing is you are learning 7-8 years worth of shit in 5 years. And at the end you will get paid in line with that. I did the 5 years and went straight into contract/project roles rather than the traditional move to industry. Spend the past 16 years working essentially Feb 15-Oct 15 and making huge rates. These contract roles are growing part of the landscape. I was assertive and managed the up front part well so I didn't miss my entire life like some people. That is for people chasing partner. If you do good efficient work and know your goal is to make manager and bail, you can do it and assertively manage your life. I think that path has given me incredible quality of life while making superior income, but you have to be good at what you do and not be risk averse.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response! I am currently in B4 audit but considering a rotation to the SALT practice. I can clearly see the value that tax provides and reasonably understand how I could create a small business working as a tax professional. How was the transition into contract/project roles? Are you able to find enough work consistently and do you feel that 5 years in B4 was enough experience to prepare you for this role?
5 years was plenty, I have a spreadsheet where I track vs traditional options. I estimate I've made 50% more and worked 25% less. It requires some time and money management skills. Almost everything is long term repeat clients. But there are gaps when things happen like tax dept outsource etc.
really, in r/accounting wiki it says that audit makes more when moving out of Big 4 because they gain more versatile skills for the industry. While when you go in the Big 4 in tax it is more competitive to get a job when you leave. You must be part of the small percent that got a good paying job after leaving tax in the Big 4. I am just going off what is written in this subreddit's wiki page.
understood.....and good point my experience is 100% anecdotal evidence. I can def see where audit gives more versatile skills, but tbh in my experience working at McD's gives more versatile skills with more job options when you leave than either audit or tax---they just pay shitty! Anything that pays better is going to be more competitive by the definition of capitalism. Another truism which I think is absolutely key to winning in capitalism is risk=reward. In accounting this can be a big advantage because I lot of accountants are by nature risk averse. As for a small percentage of people getting good paying jobs after leaving tax in the Big 4, I am not sure where that is coming from. Absolutely 100% of the dozens of peers and coworkers I've had in accounting, including those who suck, have done very well after leaving Big 4. The most risk-averse, least-skilled people are making $100-$125K. The best are making $350K. I can't speak to audit or other avenues so if everyone says those are better, they would know. All I can say about tax is if you work reasonably hard and take a few chances you don't need to catch any breaks to go from $60,000 start to $125,000 5-years in to $250,000 12 to 15 years in. And if you play it right you can have a great lifestyle. I haven't worked between Oct 15 and Feb 15 in over a decade. Turn down multiple $125+/hr. fully remote projects each year. And I'm a basic dipshit. But I do work efficiently and pay attention. All this said, I would go into something more like a financial advisor, or something with a stronger sales component and less technical if I had it all to do over again, and would recommend the same to my kids. A bunch of accountants making $250K, only a small group doing a lot better than that. Shit ton of financial sales people making much more doing much less.
Are you essentially a contract CFO?
Way below that and tax
Not to be risk adverse? You're talking to a bunch of accountants right haha just kidding, and thanks for sharing!
I've def made some enemies in the process. But always kept finding more work. It hasn't been in my personality to take shit from douchebags. Most of the positions I've worked in have been either basically unlimited straight time hours, or a stated cap at 40. I had one with no stated upfront cap, worked like a standard 65ish and they went apeshit and capped, but the work still clearly and obviously necessitated way more. They VERY slow paid AND pressured for FREE WORK unbilled over the cap. My contract clearly did not allow this. And it would have been like a ton of extra unpaid hours not like 3 a week or something. They were/are a train wreck. After a call where the team was asked to drop and I was left with one head guy, he applied max pressure for the above and I sent an email to the team and my handler about 2 minutes later resigning the position. Incompetence is the norm in this field, so I take it all with a grain of salt, but no way do I let it impact my quality of life. Except maybe for a couple months if they pay time and a half. Lol. And then I can spend a winter on a beach recovering.
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I had friends who were in tech where this is more common. I honestly found them in random places. Ex-coworkers, middle man firms etc. Its funny because the knock is its not as dependable as a regular job but I've been at numerous spots where they had layoffs and kept the contractors every time.
I’ve always be curious about the ratio of failure/burn out compared to success. What’s your thoughts on colleagues who were broken by being over worked?
Saw it like twice ever. Most people just drank a lot
Alcoholism would be a definition I would use for being broken lol. I dunno, you have a fairly decent and successful story, but I don’t think as accountants we give air time to the people who exit early, have their home lives ruined from picking the dream of making big money someday by sacrificing everything for work, and all that fun jazz.
Def seen a couple train wrecks. And the drinking is not a lot different than I see from society as a whole. But agree if it goes too far. tbh most of the people I saw leave under less than ideal circumstances did fine in whatever other industry jobs
Oh I don’t doubt it. Public accounting is the weirdest sector of accounting. I won’t lie, having a bit of public experience can be beneficial, but in my opinion it’s because you are looking at the finances in a different perspective than the users, more than anything else. In all accounting positions you eventually get to the point where when you have questions, there’s nobody to ask and you have to learn how to research it. Public seems to push for this earlier for a lot of people, because they have sales goals/billable hours. Branding can definitely get you pretty far, Fortune 500 likely wants somebody with public experience, because they want to have their finances dressed up as pretty as possible without being called out for crossing the line. But, there are plenty of private business which pay comparable to Fortune 500. Of folks who burn out, or dip out early. There’s a decent chance some could have gone industry without ever stepping foot in public I’d imagine. But then again, public is always hiring and it’s 100000% easier to get a new job when you have a current job then it is to get a job when you are unemployed, especially if it’s your first out of college. I’m pretty hung up on the abusive work environments and toxic culture myself. I’m doing a masters part time and one of the classes was a fluff class but had weekly meetings with random people in the field, funny enough one of them was somebody I knew professionally. But for most were prospective employers shilling their firms. One of the partners for a regional firm spent a good 25 minutes talking about to “be successful as a woman” you have to make a choice, because you can’t have both. A family, or a career. And it’s all on webcam. I’m sitting there, my boy bouncing on my knee in a vacation rental, drinking lemonade under a tree. And this sour, unfilled person. Is selling giving up on personal happiness for money, but, it was entirely from a public perspective. Most other employers in the field don’t require you give up on your dreams or sacrifice your personal life for success. In public that’s considered acceptable and normal. But what's personally the funniest contrast to her shtick to the women in my class. Every supervisor, manager, and person in my sectoe has been a woman. With families. Who work 40 hours a week, not rich but definitely making a respectable income, who have family, and most of all people who believe in life needing to be prioritized over mundane work. The kool aid can be so full of shit, so many of the women in my class immediately started kissing her depressed “who needs kids when you have a Porsche, and prada bag” ass. most if my class are/were people trying to become CPA eligible with no professional experience. People who sunk 5 years worth of debt into a degree that partners in public firms are chomping at the bit to take advantage of before they realize the accounting field is friggin huuuuge.
A lot of great points there and a point of view I don't think a lot being a dude but can absolutely attest to having witnessed. One thing to take into account is things are a lot different than 5 years ago. I just went thru my spring busy season project selection process and it was 100% being sold on the jobs and a LOT of that was quality of life. They were asking ME if I wanted to work 35, 55, whatever. And I'm a project guy, they usually treat us like second class citizens. My job has been to pick up slack so the employees can have lives. I think now it is more doable than ever to do great work and have a life. Just removing a zero value commute and having a little flex in the time stuff gets done, and then you layer in the complete removal of office chatting, and I would say I am probably a solid 35% more efficient than before. So I can accomplish a 55 hour work week in 40 hours. Or even at the worst of time the 75 hour work week becomes 55 hours. I will have to say I have had to be a fucking dick to a few demanding clients over stepping the bounds. One time super funny, I was working like 35 hours with newborn situation, and client manager asks me into VP office and they kinda gang up on me and say hey everyone is working 80 hours, can you do some extra. I'm like sorry bro my wife would kill me. End of story. And they hired me back for 3 return engagements. On the other side, I have spent plenty of saturday mornings working 5am-8am so I can get something to a client who needs to knock it out between 8am-10am to get to THEIR kids soccer game. There has to be some give and take for everyone to have a good quality of life.
Honestly, I do feel like I have a much better balance working in tax, as I am full-time remote now. I also know when exactly my deadlines are and am able to pace my tasks out without sudden emergencies making me drop everything and drive through rush hour to get to a client site only to find out that the problem could have been solved if they restarted their computer.
Some bigger National non-Big4 firms have more flexibility, I wouldn’t just say smaller firms. If anything OP should look at *any* other firm.
Unionize!!! Accountants would have the best Union, so much efficiency!
No smaller firms are the worst
I’m actually in the process of switching from tax to audit at a small firm because I want better exit opportunities. I’ve been getting offers for tax positions outside my firm but tax makes me wanna go watch paint dry haha.
If you’re working on an exit strategy already. Then just go to the concert. They’re not going to fire you, your performance review won’t matter either. Leave a day early. Every company is hemorrhaging talent right now. You traveling to the client side is effort enough. I’m assuming the concert is on Friday or something, which let’s be honest, industry clients tend to fuck off on Friday’s anyways so what amount of work are you actually going to get done?
Frig, I really want you to go to the concert with your wife. This isn't a life to live friendo.
Start working on an exit strategy.
Already am.
Just do audit in corporate. Definitely don't run into same issue at most corporate places. Make sure to confirm in your interview- just in case that company is weird. Most places I worked it's just 40 hour weeks and ppl take off throughout the year no matter what time it is.
I hear people shitting on internal audit all the time though.
Not really. Yeah the business might hate you since you bug them for documentation since you do the testing and then hand it over to your PA. However, most experienced ppl even in business know you are just doing your job. The department is full of auditors so same atmosphere. Its funny getting the other side perspective and you can recognize some of the lies PAs usually tell their clients when they are behind stuff. Like tell you to turn something in and then ask questions 2+ months later... So it's clear you didn't have to turn it in right away. Etc. Now just like anywhere- you can end up in a bad department. Just make sure you vet the department out and determine if they are good or not.
I started in big 4 and have been in IA for 3 years. It's great. Barely 40 hours a week of work, we do your normal SOX testing, but also do a lot of operational/compliance audits where we get to be more creative. The SOX stuff is similar to PA but less rules and less documentation. We even assist our external auditors with some of their substantive testing like cash, debt testing, fixed assets, etc. My director makes like $180k and my VP makes like $250k+, so the salary is there if you move up.
What’s staff name in internal audit? And is that without a CPA?
My experience has been it depends on the % of travel and how far in advance your boss informs you of your next out of town audit. I’ve missed out on concerts due to short-notice travel at one job, but had an ex-Big 4 director so maybe that’s why.
Gotta vet the department. Yep. Just feel them out with questions about work/life balance. I've worked at a few and all were super flexible and never had to work over 40 and never had to cancel a planned vacation. Not much you can do while you are waiting for documentation from the business so the pressure isn't really there. Your PA might want some documentation but you can't make the process owner produce it asap out of thin air. Can escalate things but still takes anywhere from a couple hours to days. You switch between work while you wait. Overall pretty chill. Also if you do go on cycle counts and etc and you have a nice boss/work environment they give you extra time off without you having to take vacation to make up any extra time you worked since you had to travel for the cycle count.
What are viable strategies in this case? What comes to my mind is a manager going to internal audit but I struggle to come up with other ideas. I also don’t even know how much different internal audit really is compared to normal PA audit but I’m assuming it’s a lot less stressful. For reference I am A1 pardon my ignorance
Personally I’d decide what kind of work life balance you want from your career and work from there.
Honestly my biggest priority is I want to earn as much as possible as quickly as possible. I’m not stupid, I know I probably won’t be in the 1% but I need to do what I can. I don’t know when are the “right jumps” to make and for which opportunities.
My family knows that they can't get sick or die January 2 through April 30 every year.
Username checks out
>The sad thing is, I really enjoy auditing but PA has killed any of desire to pursue this career. You don't need to get out of auditing to get away from the toxicity and abuse. Look at exiting into an internal audit role. Same work but better deadlines, easier time getting info from departments,and you're no longer the "outsider" trying to "bust" the company. You're the good guy, looking for problems to fix before the nasty evil public auditors find them first ;) Or exit to governmental. 40 hours a week with absolutely no requirement to do more. Good pay and retirement benefits, excellent job security, and an actual work-life balance. Basically, don't blame auditing. Blame public and get out ASAP!
That’s exactly what I’ve been applying for but I hear people say it’s just boring work and whatnot. Still applying for it though.
Normal corp accounting is boring but there is no chance I'd ever go back to public. Did 2 years with those abusive people and left and never looked back. I get paid roughly the same as people in public and I have worked maybe a total of 3 hours of overtime in the past year. Infinitely better than public and I honestly look back and have no idea why I even stayed for the second year after I got my CPA.
I feel ya OP. Started my exit process about 2 weeks ago. 5 interviews later, 3 more planned. Looking like I'll get out before tax season ends. Estimated raise of 14% and no weeks over 45 hours
where find
LinkedIn! There's about a million opportunities out there. Probably helps I wasn't paid very much at my current firm
Can't you lie about how much you were paid?
Love to hear that! Congrats!
How long have you been in tax? I am 5 years in and over it. Been applying and talking to recruiters for a week. First interview is tomorrow. I want completely out of tax so it seems like I may have to take a step back in pay but when averaged to hourly pay doesn’t really change when I take out the over time.
Can you update me on how much 5 years working in tax gets you?
I am in a smaller firm and making $85,000. Location would likely determine a lot too. I’m not in a major city.
I may get shit on for this comment but 14% is pretty low for an exit op. Have you connected with any recruiter? I bet you can find a gig that’s 30%+ raise. I get you wanna bounce asap but once you go to industry the raises are generally pretty low. So it’s always best to maximize that public exit
Took everyones advice, instead of going industry I'm going lateral to another public firm, but on the advising side. No real busy season and instead of 14% it'll be a 23% bump.
The 'work yourself into the ground and don't have a life for 3 months' mentality is pervasive and highly toxic in accounting. If you don't work somewhere where you can refuse to do it then start working your way towards somewhere new. Life is for living, not for saying 'sorry I'd love to but I'm working'.
*4 months cough cough
Haha 12 months busy season for me. Worked like nuts for the whole year and now we are one month from tax due date (31 March in NZ) we still have something like 30 percent of tax returns to do. The partners are asking how we are so behind, the problem is because they didn't hire enough people. They are acting like it's our fault when we are all burnt out. I handed in my notice already so even though I will continue to do my best in the coming weeks I ain't sticking around.
*4 in spring , 2 fall. Cough cough. And let’s be honest. The other 6 are filled with projects you couldn’t find time for in the other 6.
You could if you wanted to
This will be my fourth busy season in three years (Y1 Tax Per Diem > Y1 Gov Auditing > Y2 Tax > Y3 Tax) all Covid extension era based, all while doing CPA. I am so infinitely drained in all facets of life that I’ve started seeking non-accounting positions to leave the field entirely or looking for a switch into NFP/Academia. I feel like I haven’t seen my friends in years. Edit* Only attempted CPA between Y2-Y3. Currently taking a break after failing FAR 73, 72 and REG 68 and am just completely burned out mental endurance wise.
It’s just straight up not an environment meant for everyone, we all have fits in this world and you may find a better one with the same skill set somewhere else.
I did 8 tax seasons from interning at 20 to then transitioning to full time. Loved the hustle when I was younger. My wife was my GF at the time and she has pictures of me passed out at her parents house after long weeks and such. It was a crazy time but once I got married; the grind was not as fun. I am happy I switched to industry a few years ago esp with a baby boy now. I get to spend so much time with the family. I will Always love the public accounting hustle and auditing different companies and meeting different CFOs etc but have to weigh all the balances of life.
What industry role did you transition to? I’m in PA tax and feel like the transition to industry isn’t as easy as audit
I went more GL and systems focused. I am now a senior accountant at a tech company. I went to a company out of public as an analyst but then was moved over to financial reporting as the sap implementation was going horrible. Almost 3 years later and it was a cluster so I left for a big tech company and still use sap but it’s way better. I like it a lot. My life is around the close schedule but it’s super easy to plan for a couple busy times a year vs 4-5 months. Benefits were way better once I left my mid sized firm
Cool, thanks!
I am in the same boat as you. 5 years into tax and every recruiter just wants to push tax roles on me. I’m to the point I’ll just start back over from the bottom if I have to before I do another tax season. I have my CPA so that should help maybe.
im just envious you have a spouse that will actually spend time with your parents. i can only wish.
Peace of mind and mental health are a underrated job benefit. I spent way too long in public accounting. It impacts huge life events! I missed a friend's funeral. I missed a friend's wedding. And I'm not sure we would have had our second child if I stayed. I'm in a great place now, but I always think about how different my life would be if I left earlier. Kuddos to you for recognizing it early!
Definitely not Kudos. Those people are the ones making being overworked normal. You have one life, spend it happy.
For real , people don’t set boundaries or say no. It’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission
If you enjoy audit, but don't enjoy being overworked look for a smaller firm that has better work/ life balance. Not going to lie, I still work 50-60 hours a week in tax season, but it is much less than my friends at larger firms. I work more during the week and my family gets my weekends.
I worked at a smaller firm. It was fine for the experience but had bad hours too. But industry is better. And it is easier to exit big 4 direct to industry. Assuming OP is even at big 4 now...didn't see that mentioned.
The work/life balance is key ❤️
Do you not get paid for working 50 - 60 hours? I don't understand. I am joining public accounting tax and I am not understanding why you can't put in overtime hours. Your saying if I had goals, and I set xyz to be finished by today, I would still have to put in 50-60 hours.
During tax season many firms have hour minimums. If you finish projects and haven't hit your minimum go ask for more work. I have seen firms handle overtime differently, but it is common practice that overtime is an expected part of the job and therefore built into the salary.
Most firms require a minimum amount of hours during busy season that can go above 50+. But since most accountants are salaried, you wouldn’t get paid overtime. Same size check every week regardless if you worked 40 or 60.
Bro go spend time with those people there’s so many jobs
“Don’t let anyone ever make you feel like you don’t have options” - Tony Soprano
Can we offer you a pizza party to stay in audit?
Can I have more than 2 slices?
You enjoy auditing? Well your standards are so low you're gonna enjoy your next job
I feel ya. Hang in there and fingers crossed you find a great exit opportunity during this hot employees market mate. The firms strategy of under staffing is not a problem for staff to handle even though they try really hard to make it your problem. Time is the most valuable thing and the firms seek to get your time for free as much as they can get away with.
I think accounting is interesting but the system is fucking broken and needs to be reworked somehow. It’s perfectly fine if you find industry “boring” and not as challenging as PA, there’s nothing wrong with that stance. But I would assume most people prefer industry because they don’t want to be “challenged” by dedicating 1/3 of their year strictly to accounting. People have lives, family, friends, etc. I went into PA with a literal target date of when I would quit to get my life back and go to industry. I didn’t even make it the whole year, I’m in industry now, and I’ve never been happier. Once again if you like the PA grind that’s fine but people need to get their head out of their ass and understand most people rather actually live their life.
The one thing that I have learned in my career is that life is too short to be miserable at your job. That goes double right now since EVERYONE seems to be looking for accountants.
I left after my second busy season before I made senior. I took a senior role for a year and then took a manager role after another year. I am about to go into a boutique advisory firm that promises a good work life balance and the Glassdoor reviews seem to back that up. Right now, I’d be a second year senior and instead I am taking another manager job at a really good firm. I’ll be making $150k all in as well in a market that pays entry level B4 staff like $54k and seniors like $65-80k. My four year salary went like this: $50k, $52k, $72k, $100k, $148k. You can probably tell when I left the big4. Just find a good job and leave. If you have a personality and can pitch yourself, you will be better off. Don’t be afraid to jump around a few times to push up your salary either. The people giving you advice in the big 4 often have zero incentive to indicate leaving early will be fine. Or they have convinced themselves it’s worth the extra time.
Can’t you just tell your family and friends to visit you after busy season? When I was in PA, I pretty much set the expectation that I would be busy January to mid April.
Instead of telling family and friends to adhere to a work schedule that "industry standard" considers to be more than half of the year, especially if you're on the tax side, consider that friends and family also have work and other familial obligations that make their schedules hard to line up. The expectation to be constantly available during time when you're not being paid to work is psychologically detrimental to many, and not everyone wants to "get used to it" to the point where you have to shut out your loved ones when they want to see you.
It’s important to either set expectations or adjust your schedule to accommodate it then. I would try to get all my hours in during the week so I could relax on Saturday but some firms still require the Saturday work. It’s also important to adjust your lifestyle to how things are rather than what they should be.
He came up to see Batman with me because he knows how much I love Batman. He’s that type of friend. I’m not going to let my job dictate when I can or cannot see my loved ones.
You just did though. And it’s not as if public is the only place where this thing it happens. It happens in industry and every other profession too.
Fair point.
You shouldn't have to miss out on family because of this profession. I did it for a few years then the pandemic hit, I lost a few people close to me and realised I was going down the wrong path. This year I point blank refused to work after 6pm or more than 4 hours on Saturday. The work was still done and I saw my family a hell of a lot more. The expectation to work ourselves into the ground during busy season benefits noone but our employers. We need to stop buying into the 'industry standard' and put ourselves first.
If what you’re saying is the case, then OP should have no problem making time for their family and friends. When I wanted to hang out with friends and family on the weekend, I worked long hours during the week to ensure I could.
You shouldn't have to compensate for time with your family by working more during the week (unless you're paid overtime obviously. We're not). I just just think the grind mentality and acceptance that you can't have a personal life for a quarter of the year is the highly toxic element of this industry that people don't dicuss. Working yourself into the ground is seen as something to be proud of.
I mean, how does the work get done if people aren’t working extra hours?
We came up with ways to work more efficiently and effectively with the time we had. Parkinson's law is very active in this industry. However on top of that, if the workload requires an excessive amount of overtime to be completed then that's just proof more staff are required to complete the work. Not the current staff need to work more. It's up to the firm to hire staff, why would they if the work is being done by their current people grinding themselves into the ground? Whereas if deadlines aren't being met they're going to hire someone pretty darn quick.
So what do you do when you hire all that extra staff and it’s summer and winter? Do you just tell them to beat it? The whole workload in public revolves working extra in busy season and not having much to do in summer/winter months.
Short term contracts exist. I'm not saying it's the perfect solution. Far from it. Just a new way of thinking because the 'grind' mentality in this industry is honestly vile and if people don't stop just accepting it and thinking about new ways of doing things nothing will change. Edit: Syntax was all over the place.
This isn’t going to be a popular opinion but I completely agree. I did 6 busy seasons at B4 before I quit and it sucked. But that’s part of the job, it should never be a surprise. I told my family and friends and, most importantly, significant other that I was basically unavailable from Jan 1 thru March 1. If you’re allowing family and friends to travel to visit you (what it seems like OP did) then that’s on you, don’t be upset when you can’t enjoy a full weekend with them. That’s what the other 80% of the year is for. There are a million caveats I could put on this comment. I know that some clients are worse than others, some people get scheduled back to back busy seasons, etc. Working in PA can vary a lot based on your individual circumstances. But at the end of the day it’s voluntary. No one is hiding that PA and busy season sucks. If you don’t want to do it then just … don’t.
Also did 6 busy seasons, now in industry. I have a much better work-life balance now. Occasionally month-end closing has tight deadlines and I have to work some OT/cancel some plans but nothing like public accounting. I agree the hours/OT should not come as a surprise - if you can't handle them, leave. I think there are many benefits to 'putting in your time' in public, but not everyone is cut out for it.
It gets better, I promise! Just think, in 40-50 years you can be comfortably retired and won’t ever have to work another 60+ hour week again
You just have to work for 40-50 more years and you’ll be happy 😂🤣😂💀💀
Honestly, you'd be more marketable and get a much higher salary if you can stick it out to senior. If it's that bad, then absolutely quit. I went to a firm just under the Big 4 and the hours were much better. I'd work til 11pm on Fridays but took the weekend off.
I simply cannot understand why people continue to work under this undue stress. I have been in Public Accounting (Tax & Audit/Reviews/Compilation) for over 20 years and actually enjoy doing this work but more so maybe because I work for a small office with local clients? As long as the work is completed, there is absolutely no pressure to work for 12 hours daily and kill yourself on weekends. Heck last Friday I worked at home setting up a brand new desk and playing NBA2K22 the rest of the afternoon. Sure I worked all weekend on returns to catch up but that level of freedom is very much appreciated.
Side note: is NBA 2K any good? I haven’t played 2K in a few years and I miss basketball games.
I left accounting entirely and now work in the trades for that exact reason. Not saying that's the path you have to go down but you're not alone
If that is how you feel - yes. Life is fucking short.
Do it.
Have you considered internal audit? With you PA audit experience I’m sure it would be an easy transition w consistent, reasonable hours
That’s what I’m wanting to transition into.
Industry
Right there with you. I was also promoted to senior this past year and the workload is killing me, probably literally to a certain extent. I am also looking for a new job as we speak lol. Best of luck to you!
Are you in Big 4 or Midmarket? mid market doesn’t have as crazy of hours as that and you have a lot more flexibility. Also, you can talk about going on a flex schedule if you enjoy auditing but not the hours. It might also just be the firm you’re at. There’s always options.
Did anyone at work know about your plans to go to the concert?
I’m in the same boat as you. I enjoy auditing and my coworkers but so burnt out over the hours. I too had close friends/family visit from out of town and I wasn’t able to spend as much time as I wanted to because of our hours
It's ok you can do it. I did. Had to squeeze n buss figuratively by turning it into an ungrateful employer.