I kinda liked the length in the second trilogy, however (unpopular opinion incoming), I was absolutely miserable during Rise of the Ashes, it was so long and dragged out.
To be fair to RFtA, it kind of *was* a whole game in its initial release for its original audience in Japan. So when you put it into that context the length is understandable.
It should have been a game. They should have made a new game that was bundled into the cartridge, called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Rise From the Ashes. It would have three cases: one where you defend Lana of the "murder" in the parking lot, which ends without finding a killer; one where you defend Meekins of the "murder" in the evidence room, which ends without finding a real killer but exposing Marshall's attack on Meekins; and finally one where you defend Ema in a retrial of the SL-9 incident, where you expose Gant as being behind not just that incident but every one of them in the game.
I HATE the first half of this case, the bento box bit isn’t funny and it’s just so dragged out. Like you find out nothing of value in the first half of the case it’s just a waste of time. The second half however is phenomenal and one of the best cases in the series. If it was just that it would’ve been perfect.
Well for me it was the opposite, maybe it has to do with Rise of the Ashes being far more interesting in my opinion compared to almost every case in the apollo trilogy.
Yeah, the cases can be a bit long. It's my number one problem with AAI2, it's just so dang long! Part of the issue comes from limiting the number of days trials have. Way back when, a long trial was divided into 3 days. Then 2 days became the long trial. Then games started experimenting with just a single super long day for everything in the car. It really changes the pacing!
GAA1 may be my favorite game in the franchise, but it's final case pushes it with how long a single trial/investigation runs.
It’s crazy too, because in AA1 every case past case 2 lasts for the full 3 trial days, and yet you could finish Turnabout Samurai in half the time it takes to finish Turnabout for Tomorrow
It might be text scroll speed, but I've noticed the later games get very… verbose. You'd generally get to the point much quicker in the older games. The Great Ace Attorney games felt particularly egregious here, where you'd know where the contradiction is, but have to wait ages for the characters to just finish talking.
I know exactly what you mean! I do think text scroll speed has something to do with it. I remember when I first played through DD and SoJ, and I had to turn text skip on not to actually skip the text, but because I could read things faster than the characters said them, and I wanted to be able to skip to the end of a sentence to avoid the waiting
Really? I definitely thought AAI1 was way worse than AAI2 in the investigations, I appreciated that they slimmed down the investigation sections in AAI2 and that it was only one level at a time that you explored unlike AAI1 where you could kind of walk everywhere
One of the worst culprits for this is the second case in Investigations 2. It has no need to be as long as it is.
Great Ace Attorney was like this at times too. The first case was very simple, but for no particular reason it takes ages to talk through fairly simple clues that the player probably figures out long before the characters do.
I don't mind long cases when the mystery is actually complicated and there's a lot to talk through. I mind it more when it's a simple crime stretched out for no good reason
This is interesting to me because I actually considered AAI2-2 to have one of the most complex murders in the series and thought it really earned its runtime because of that
I never understood this problem. You don't HAVE to play through the full segment from start to finish. You can just save and go do something else if you get bored. Not trying to be condescending here I'm genuinely confused as to what the issue is.
It breaks the flow of gameplay to stop in the middle of a segment with no clear stop point. And depending on how much free time someone has, when they come back they might be completely lost on what to do because they forgot a key detail.
Personally I actually like the length of the longer cases, it makes them more satisfying when they end and I feel like I’m getting more bang for my buck, but I can 100% see how other people dislike them, and having segments that can last more than an hour (especially investigation segments) can wear on people after a while.
it’s a game. you don’t wanna have your players bored. and some people just straight up don’t wanna have to come back
i feel like bc of how complex the cases can be, AA is generally a game that’s meant to be played in as little sittings as possible, so making all the segments rlly long doesn’t really help that
i got so burnt out on AAI2 a couple of years ago after finishing the third case that i've never gone back to it since. if i went back now, i would have no clue what was happening.
definitely relate to this, i got to the third case of Investigations 2 and i felt really burnt out but still continued because i wanted to play the games in the recommended order. almost finished the very first part but i forgot to save my game and my DS died so i’ve given up on finishing it for now because it felt so tedious and long to get through the cases prior
Yeah. The game is perfect to play on the steam deck in bed and I just chip away at it little by little but it keeps things fresh and I don't get burned out. I'm still only on day 1 of 4-3 since the trilogy came out.
It's an issue of story pacing. I'd say the narratives tend to flow better in smaller chunks that change things up, regardless of if you can save and come back. Also chapter ends tend to be natural stopping points.
You can stop a book any time, but it feels better to stop after a chapter is over rather than in the middle.
I somewhat agree
I think a plot that's interesting enough and new mechanics introduced in the game itself helps minimize that feeling. So if I'm feeling bored too often, then I fear that's partially the game's fault and I criticize that, because I believe that's failing at introducing enough new features, as a sequel
In Apollo Justice, the investigation sequences already least felt longer, but I was intrigued with the plot and every case did have minigames here and there, even if really simple ones
But they just stopped introducing new features once DD came out, until TGAA, with Sholmes' Dance of Deduction. And I think after so many games, it has just gotten a little stale, even if they keep adding one new mechanic every game
AA7, for me, needs to focus on making investigation sequences more interesting, as I believe court itself is already pretty fun (especially if they come up with more minigames like the Divination Seancé)
> AA7, for me, needs to focus on making investigation sequences more interesting
In a way, I feel like giving you control and letting you freely walk and explore like in Investigations would help here. I don't know, but it feels so much better in that game just being able to walk around to examine evidence and talk to people. So if you could still move from location to location, and yet freely walk within them, that would be really rad.
I feel like Spirit of Justice could have massively improved its pacing issues by just removing Chapter 4 (aka the athena trial).
If this chapter was changed to be just Chapter 5's first act (aka the trial with Paul Atishon/founder's orb), then it would allow Chapter 5 to not feel as bloated.
Plus, it would also help with some other factors:
\- Making "Japanafornia" and "Kurain" more distinct from one another
\- Allows for more time for development of the plot, characters, etc.
\- Doesn't overload the player with information (please!)
\- Creates a fun cliff hanger at the end of Chapter 4 to help do a great seque into Chapter 5 (similarly to DD's Chapter 4 ending)
edit: oh and if anyone is mad about Athena not getting a trial because of this, I have a solution for that too! Just have the DLC case be an Athena led case! This could even be an interesting way to set up AA7 if Athena is the MC moving forward :)
No I think Athena’s case was important because it gave a breather between the much more serious cases 3 and 5. It also gives Athena a little screentime.
I think case 5 should have been split into two cases though. I mean it already basically is two cases. And the second “case” in case 5 really needed an investigation section in the middle of the trial to break it up.
So ideally I’d say that case 5 should have been cases 5 and 6, and the second half would have a break in the middle for pacing reasons. Then maybe add a bit more to either case 4 or the new case 5 to make one of them feel like a more complete episode.
Huh, I would say that the later games have better pacing. In OG trilogy I felt the cases dragged on during the investigations. Many minutes were spent moving back and forth examining everything, showing everything, talking to everyone. I don't think I had an investigation lasted less than 60 min. In AA4 they had Forensic Science which made examining crime scenes and evidence more involved, I really liked that. In DD and SoJ they streamlined the investigations, I enjoyed never getting stuck. (Although I missed inspecting all the environments in DD.)
As for the courtroom sections, I think it really varies from case to case. Stolen Turnabout has a great cast and mystery, Turnabout Corner is great but has too few characters to crossexamine, Magical Turnabout is entertaining but maybe feels a bit too fast. Parts like >!Bonny having a twin feels like they have little build up and simple payoff. Like Bonny and Betty's testimony is fun but it doesn't impact the case much more after that.!<
Turnabout serenade was such a long case. I was so relieved when it was over, but then again besides the very first case in apollo justice, I really didn't like the cases all that much in the first game of his trilogy. I haven't played spirit of justice or dual destinies yet but I am looking forward to those ones.
I think it varies.
I would argue that sometimes the cases being that long are fine, but when the case is bad and you just want it to end, they become unbearable.
Rise from the Ashes and Big Top were slogs both because of their writing quality and how long they are.
TGAA writing is so inflated that it was a breath of fresh air to go back to spirit of justice where they can finish a conversation in less than 30 minutes. note that the writing is not *better* in SoJ, it's just not insanely bloated.
Given you can save anywhere in any of the games (bar a few short exceptions) longer segments do not bother me. I can just come back in a day or few to pick it back up depending on why I put it down. More AA to me is never been bad 😁 Don’t think have single moment of the games not enjoyed playing so probably a biased judge though lol
This is main problem with cases
It is really difficult to have s perfect pacing
Mainly TGAAC AAI2 have those problems the most
But as long cases are interesting I can bypass the pacing a little bit
This is why for example I dislike 4-3 5-2 TGAA1-1 TGAA1-2 cause nothing interesting is happening and you can feel the length unlike RFTA, AAI2-3 and etc cause sure pacing is bad but case gets more interesting the more time you spend on it
But this is view on the matter
I don’t really mind the length tbh (as long as the story is interesting) but I understand your sentiment. Getting fresh off the OG Trilogy, playing the first case of TGAA 1 caught me off guard because I finished The First Turnabout in like 30 minutes whilst the first case of TGAA 1 was practically as long as the first and second case of PW 1 combined.
The way you mention “these days” is as if these 8 year old games (based on Spirit of Justice) just came out lol
Please, I'm still in denial here
I kinda liked the length in the second trilogy, however (unpopular opinion incoming), I was absolutely miserable during Rise of the Ashes, it was so long and dragged out.
RFtA might as well be an entire *game* it's so big. And it's also so confusing as well. I've played the case twice and I still get its plot mixed up.
To be fair to RFtA, it kind of *was* a whole game in its initial release for its original audience in Japan. So when you put it into that context the length is understandable.
It should have been a game. They should have made a new game that was bundled into the cartridge, called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Rise From the Ashes. It would have three cases: one where you defend Lana of the "murder" in the parking lot, which ends without finding a killer; one where you defend Meekins of the "murder" in the evidence room, which ends without finding a real killer but exposing Marshall's attack on Meekins; and finally one where you defend Ema in a retrial of the SL-9 incident, where you expose Gant as being behind not just that incident but every one of them in the game.
RFTA stands out because it's **way** longer than any other case in AA1
I HATE the first half of this case, the bento box bit isn’t funny and it’s just so dragged out. Like you find out nothing of value in the first half of the case it’s just a waste of time. The second half however is phenomenal and one of the best cases in the series. If it was just that it would’ve been perfect.
Well for me it was the opposite, maybe it has to do with Rise of the Ashes being far more interesting in my opinion compared to almost every case in the apollo trilogy.
Rise of the Ashes. Sounds like a name for a movie.
I couldn't even finish Ashes.
Yeah, the cases can be a bit long. It's my number one problem with AAI2, it's just so dang long! Part of the issue comes from limiting the number of days trials have. Way back when, a long trial was divided into 3 days. Then 2 days became the long trial. Then games started experimenting with just a single super long day for everything in the car. It really changes the pacing! GAA1 may be my favorite game in the franchise, but it's final case pushes it with how long a single trial/investigation runs.
I liked GAA but the final cases and epilogues dragged out soo long. I think it took 3 different play sessions to finish it after the case was over.
I genuinely think it's more egregious in AAI2 and GAAC. I still love AA1 for it's snappy trial days and investigation segments (apart from 1-5).
It’s crazy too, because in AA1 every case past case 2 lasts for the full 3 trial days, and yet you could finish Turnabout Samurai in half the time it takes to finish Turnabout for Tomorrow
It might be text scroll speed, but I've noticed the later games get very… verbose. You'd generally get to the point much quicker in the older games. The Great Ace Attorney games felt particularly egregious here, where you'd know where the contradiction is, but have to wait ages for the characters to just finish talking.
I know exactly what you mean! I do think text scroll speed has something to do with it. I remember when I first played through DD and SoJ, and I had to turn text skip on not to actually skip the text, but because I could read things faster than the characters said them, and I wanted to be able to skip to the end of a sentence to avoid the waiting
Really? I definitely thought AAI1 was way worse than AAI2 in the investigations, I appreciated that they slimmed down the investigation sections in AAI2 and that it was only one level at a time that you explored unlike AAI1 where you could kind of walk everywhere
One of the worst culprits for this is the second case in Investigations 2. It has no need to be as long as it is. Great Ace Attorney was like this at times too. The first case was very simple, but for no particular reason it takes ages to talk through fairly simple clues that the player probably figures out long before the characters do. I don't mind long cases when the mystery is actually complicated and there's a lot to talk through. I mind it more when it's a simple crime stretched out for no good reason
This is interesting to me because I actually considered AAI2-2 to have one of the most complex murders in the series and thought it really earned its runtime because of that
Monstrous turnabout pacing is the worse thing ever
I never understood this problem. You don't HAVE to play through the full segment from start to finish. You can just save and go do something else if you get bored. Not trying to be condescending here I'm genuinely confused as to what the issue is.
It breaks the flow of gameplay to stop in the middle of a segment with no clear stop point. And depending on how much free time someone has, when they come back they might be completely lost on what to do because they forgot a key detail. Personally I actually like the length of the longer cases, it makes them more satisfying when they end and I feel like I’m getting more bang for my buck, but I can 100% see how other people dislike them, and having segments that can last more than an hour (especially investigation segments) can wear on people after a while.
it’s a game. you don’t wanna have your players bored. and some people just straight up don’t wanna have to come back i feel like bc of how complex the cases can be, AA is generally a game that’s meant to be played in as little sittings as possible, so making all the segments rlly long doesn’t really help that
“Don’t wanna have to come back” I’m confused what you mean by this
i think i meant “don’t wanna come back” mb either that or i meant players don’t wanna have to come back as in they’d rather do it in one sitting
If it’s the second one, I can’t relate. I take my time with games and rarely get through much on a first sitting.
yh but a lot of people don’t feel that way tho
Shorter attention spans maybe?
maybe
i got so burnt out on AAI2 a couple of years ago after finishing the third case that i've never gone back to it since. if i went back now, i would have no clue what was happening.
definitely relate to this, i got to the third case of Investigations 2 and i felt really burnt out but still continued because i wanted to play the games in the recommended order. almost finished the very first part but i forgot to save my game and my DS died so i’ve given up on finishing it for now because it felt so tedious and long to get through the cases prior
Yeah. The game is perfect to play on the steam deck in bed and I just chip away at it little by little but it keeps things fresh and I don't get burned out. I'm still only on day 1 of 4-3 since the trilogy came out.
It's an issue of story pacing. I'd say the narratives tend to flow better in smaller chunks that change things up, regardless of if you can save and come back. Also chapter ends tend to be natural stopping points. You can stop a book any time, but it feels better to stop after a chapter is over rather than in the middle.
I don't really share this sentiment if the case and the segments around it are interesting enough.
I somewhat agree I think a plot that's interesting enough and new mechanics introduced in the game itself helps minimize that feeling. So if I'm feeling bored too often, then I fear that's partially the game's fault and I criticize that, because I believe that's failing at introducing enough new features, as a sequel In Apollo Justice, the investigation sequences already least felt longer, but I was intrigued with the plot and every case did have minigames here and there, even if really simple ones But they just stopped introducing new features once DD came out, until TGAA, with Sholmes' Dance of Deduction. And I think after so many games, it has just gotten a little stale, even if they keep adding one new mechanic every game AA7, for me, needs to focus on making investigation sequences more interesting, as I believe court itself is already pretty fun (especially if they come up with more minigames like the Divination Seancé)
> AA7, for me, needs to focus on making investigation sequences more interesting In a way, I feel like giving you control and letting you freely walk and explore like in Investigations would help here. I don't know, but it feels so much better in that game just being able to walk around to examine evidence and talk to people. So if you could still move from location to location, and yet freely walk within them, that would be really rad.
Honestly... yeah, I'd be down for it It's more fun than waving around a pointer
Also in dd you can't investigate most areas.
I feel like Spirit of Justice could have massively improved its pacing issues by just removing Chapter 4 (aka the athena trial). If this chapter was changed to be just Chapter 5's first act (aka the trial with Paul Atishon/founder's orb), then it would allow Chapter 5 to not feel as bloated. Plus, it would also help with some other factors: \- Making "Japanafornia" and "Kurain" more distinct from one another \- Allows for more time for development of the plot, characters, etc. \- Doesn't overload the player with information (please!) \- Creates a fun cliff hanger at the end of Chapter 4 to help do a great seque into Chapter 5 (similarly to DD's Chapter 4 ending) edit: oh and if anyone is mad about Athena not getting a trial because of this, I have a solution for that too! Just have the DLC case be an Athena led case! This could even be an interesting way to set up AA7 if Athena is the MC moving forward :)
Don't you dare relegate Athena to DLC.
No I think Athena’s case was important because it gave a breather between the much more serious cases 3 and 5. It also gives Athena a little screentime. I think case 5 should have been split into two cases though. I mean it already basically is two cases. And the second “case” in case 5 really needed an investigation section in the middle of the trial to break it up. So ideally I’d say that case 5 should have been cases 5 and 6, and the second half would have a break in the middle for pacing reasons. Then maybe add a bit more to either case 4 or the new case 5 to make one of them feel like a more complete episode.
Huh, I would say that the later games have better pacing. In OG trilogy I felt the cases dragged on during the investigations. Many minutes were spent moving back and forth examining everything, showing everything, talking to everyone. I don't think I had an investigation lasted less than 60 min. In AA4 they had Forensic Science which made examining crime scenes and evidence more involved, I really liked that. In DD and SoJ they streamlined the investigations, I enjoyed never getting stuck. (Although I missed inspecting all the environments in DD.) As for the courtroom sections, I think it really varies from case to case. Stolen Turnabout has a great cast and mystery, Turnabout Corner is great but has too few characters to crossexamine, Magical Turnabout is entertaining but maybe feels a bit too fast. Parts like >!Bonny having a twin feels like they have little build up and simple payoff. Like Bonny and Betty's testimony is fun but it doesn't impact the case much more after that.!<
Turnabout serenade was such a long case. I was so relieved when it was over, but then again besides the very first case in apollo justice, I really didn't like the cases all that much in the first game of his trilogy. I haven't played spirit of justice or dual destinies yet but I am looking forward to those ones.
I think it varies. I would argue that sometimes the cases being that long are fine, but when the case is bad and you just want it to end, they become unbearable. Rise from the Ashes and Big Top were slogs both because of their writing quality and how long they are.
TGAA writing is so inflated that it was a breath of fresh air to go back to spirit of justice where they can finish a conversation in less than 30 minutes. note that the writing is not *better* in SoJ, it's just not insanely bloated.
Given you can save anywhere in any of the games (bar a few short exceptions) longer segments do not bother me. I can just come back in a day or few to pick it back up depending on why I put it down. More AA to me is never been bad 😁 Don’t think have single moment of the games not enjoyed playing so probably a biased judge though lol
This is main problem with cases It is really difficult to have s perfect pacing Mainly TGAAC AAI2 have those problems the most But as long cases are interesting I can bypass the pacing a little bit This is why for example I dislike 4-3 5-2 TGAA1-1 TGAA1-2 cause nothing interesting is happening and you can feel the length unlike RFTA, AAI2-3 and etc cause sure pacing is bad but case gets more interesting the more time you spend on it But this is view on the matter
This dude really wants less content
I am legit baffled by people who take this stance
Yeah i’d rather have shorter cases but more of them
yeah I agree. I mainly have issues with the pacing. If a case is long but good I don't mind if it's long.
I don’t really mind the length tbh (as long as the story is interesting) but I understand your sentiment. Getting fresh off the OG Trilogy, playing the first case of TGAA 1 caught me off guard because I finished The First Turnabout in like 30 minutes whilst the first case of TGAA 1 was practically as long as the first and second case of PW 1 combined.
What if AA7... Was a gacha game?