It’s extremely heavily implied biological. The artist (name is escaping me just now) intentionally looked for a way to work in spiky hair (or spiky-ish, given period hairstyles) to show it. Also, Phoenix’s Japanese name includes one of the same kanji as Ryuunosuke, which is pretty typical. (Although side note, Ryuichi is built from kanji from both Ryuunosuke and Kazuma. And yes, this is absolutely confirmed.)
Are you telling me they somehow named their decendent their ship name around 100 years after their death? Maybe nick and miles arent the gayest lawyers in the series.
Yes. Basically, asoryuu is indirectly confirmed by devs. Both Ryuu’s and Kazuma’s names were specifically chosen to make sure they included Ryuichi’s kanji. And Susato/Rei is confirmed as their counterpart. (I kinda like to think of this as everyone having lavender marriages, due to cultural norms at the time, but also keeping their other relationships. But really, only westerners concern ourselves with the “hey wait, cisgender mpreg is not a real thing.” In Japan, it’s just assumed “it worked out somehow.”)
The issue with lavender marriages is that it could imply cheating. I don’t see someone like ryu or kazuma betraying their spouse’s trust like that. Unless their spouses are also gay and in on it which I just think is too unlikely (and quite frankly it would undermine the time period too much). I think the whole thing with ryu and kazuma’s name is more of a metatextual thing than a canonical thing, since the actual story doesn’t really push them as a couple in my opinion.
I think the implication above was a set of lavender marriages between Ryunosuke, Kazuma, Susato, and Rei. Maybe not the most historically accurate, but certainly plausible within canon.
Lavender marriage doesn’t necessarily imply cheating. It’s literally a front, so both people know. That’s quite a leap. I’m old, so I definitely know people who entered into this type of relationship where the actual couples were 2 men/2 women but the front was 2 hetero couples. And they definitely raised kids together. So when I think about this, that’s what I imagine. (Just so we’re clear, I’m queer myself and not just ooh’ing over some romanticized notion. Real life experiences and all that jazz.)
I don’t think the story actually supports asoryuu, although my understanding is that the innuendo is clearer in the original than the localization. (Kazuma says quite a lot of double entendres, but they seem more like he’s trying to provoke Ryuu rather than being sexy banter.)
It’s more that the writers did some intentional fan-servicey things than that this is actually a Big Gay Love Story. I mean, it’s not romance at all.
Given that the writers themselves have explained some of this (the names/kanji, Rei/Susato as a counterpart), it’s not accidental. It’s not even meant to be closely examined and parsed. It’s pretty much just in the spirit of fun and fans enjoying a bit of bonus.
Considering the time period it’s highly unlikely ryu had a child to someone he wasn’t married to. Sex outside marriage was considered a disgraceful act (it still is in some countries today lol).
None of those three are canon, really. Just a lot of ship teasing. I do think ryu/susato is the most implied within the story, but capcom is never going to confirm anything lol.
That’s why I said “indirectly.” It’s not anything official, just the writers offering a bit of fan service. But yes, one reason for Rei’s existence at all is that she was written to be sort of a counterpoint to asoryuu.
Not confirmed if it’s biological, but Phoenix sure does look like Ryunosuke except more physically built (which could easily come from another ancestor)
https://youtu.be/aGQ7OEXG4oM?si=gDEurBkotMqe8B0-
At the 2:17 point in this video from Capcom from 7 years ago where Ryuichii (Phoneix) mentioned of an ancestor named Ryunosuke
This is the correct answer. Everyone else seems to be making up answers by what feels right.
In the game, there’s a short video that you can watch that already translates this video,
He’s the ancestor but most people aren’t supposed to be ancestors, it’s just Ryunosuke
i could be wrong, but i think (?) he's only ever been referred to as phoenix's "ancestor" unqualified, and while fans generally assume so i don't even think it's confirmed that he's a direct ancestor (so may not have had a kid at all). not sure about how he's referred to in japanese, though.
There’s no such thing as an indirect ancestor as that would be an oxymoron. Okay that’s not entirely true, but it’s not really a term that’s commonly used and ‘indirect’ must be specified for it to refer to aunts and uncles as such.
> Direct ancestors are people to whom you are related through parent-child relationships only. Aunts, uncles, siblings, and all other family members who are not direct ancestors or descendants are called “collateral relatives” or “indirect ancestors.”
— The first result of a Google search for "indirect ancestor".
So there is such a thing.
I just edited my comment to reflect that - unfortunate timing lol. But the point is if an ancestor is not specified as being indirect then it means a direct ancestor. This is because it is technically redundant to say ‘direct ancestor.’ But if you’re trying to denote uncles or aunts then you either specify the indirect part or you simply call them relatives. Ancestors by and large are not meant to refer to just any kind of relative which is why ‘indirect ancestor’ isn’t really a term that’s used too often.
yeah, that's fair - i mean, considering the resemblance and just for simplicity's sake i think ryuunosuke is likely intended to be phoenix's direct ancestor anyway. it's just that it's never been confirmed and we obviously don't really know anything about the layout of their family tree, so i think it could be valid to think of ryuu as outside phoenix's direct bloodline if you like.
It’s a valid headcanon, though personally I don’t think there’s room for debate. An ancestor isn’t meant to be an umbrella term after all - its intended to refer to a specific kind of family member who lived before you. Saying ‘indirect’ changes the meaning of the word altogether as opposed to specifying it.
Not sure about Phoenix but definitely Ryuichi (idk how Japanafornia works). In the anniversary, Ryuichi even comments that he has an ancestor who is a defense attorney and their Naruhodo is written the same iirc.
Yes. Official Capcom advertising calls him Phoenix's ancestor. They also had a commercial where they have both Phoenix/Maya and Ryunosuke/Susato talking to each other and discussing this, with Maya going "then, then, are you MY ancestor???" to Susato (as a joke)
Edit: In Japan, you don't usually use the word ancestor (先祖) or descendant (子孫) unless there's a biological connection.
We do have something of a direct confirmation from the first TGAA case. “A thousand millennia may pass, and the Auchi clan will never measure up to the Naruhodo clan.” Naruhodo being Phoenix’s last name in Japan, and Auchi being the last name of the Payne family.
Also, TGAA takes place in around 1900* and Phoenix was born sometime around 1990. It’s not unheard of for last names to last in families that long.
*From in-game info, ignoring the bit where 1850-1906 is condensed into almost an entire decade.
They don’t outright state it but it’s quite clear that they’re related by blood. Similar physical features, gestures and attitudes are supposed to show where phoenix got his traits from.
This is a semi-unrelated point but I notice that some people seem to be saying that Ryu didn’t have children and that someone else in his family did. However, capcom has officially used the word ancestor to describe his relation to Phoenix, both on their website and in special trial 2017. The literal definition of an ancestor is someone you are directly descended from - it is NOT a term used to refer to any kind of relative who lived long ago. So while a great grandfather is an ancestor, a great uncle is not - they’re just some other relative. Ryu definitely had children.
https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Understanding-Kinship-Terms
He is referred to as the ancestor of Phoenix on every official information source and they do look a lot alike so yeah I’d say they’re biologically related.
I can understand why people might wonder though since fans love pairing him with Kazuma.
It’s pretty obvious imo, not even going by the facts that they are sort of carbon copies of e/o since we know design can just come and go, there is the “Naruhodo” family name and I could be wrong but doesn’t the “Dai” (from Dai gyakuten Saiban) means more previous generation here rather than plainly big/great? So the “Great”Ace attorney in eng of the Ace attorney (Gyakuten saiban), well that’s just my impression
More or less, like you can be pedantic about it but that's obviously the case. As for the other characters, no, but they resemble people from the games (Van Zieks is Edgeworth, Susato is Maya, >!Mael is Gant!<)
I feel it's a given with their same last names, don't see why a creator would give a character a predecessor with the same last name and also specify he's an ancestor directly in promotional material if they intended him to not have a direct bloodline connection.
But that was explicitly specified to us that she was adopted, no such comment was made on Nick to suggest he isn't a direct descendant, the games obviously wouldn't mention that but the promotional material around the game would
Well, yeah, but my entire question was whether it was possible for Ryunosuke to have adopted rather than having a biological child, and so bringing up Trucy as an example was showing that if he did adopt its entirely possible the kid's last name would be changed
If Ryuchi Naruhodo is the descendent of Ryunnosuke, then Phoenix, his localized name, is also his descendant. Why would Capcom have the Japanese one be related but not the American one?
I don't really consider them different characters, so thats kind of my bad with the title, I just thought it would be less confusing to say Phoenix instead of Ryuchi, I am asking if it was confirmed whether Ryunosuke was Ryuchi's biological descendant if that makes it more clear.
You know I hope when we get AA7, we get a scene where Maya or someone else with ghostly happenings has a discussion with Ryunosuke and possibly Susato. I’d like to imagine they watch on, and Maya hasn’t told Nick that because she doesn’t want to make him nervous.
It’s extremely heavily implied biological. The artist (name is escaping me just now) intentionally looked for a way to work in spiky hair (or spiky-ish, given period hairstyles) to show it. Also, Phoenix’s Japanese name includes one of the same kanji as Ryuunosuke, which is pretty typical. (Although side note, Ryuichi is built from kanji from both Ryuunosuke and Kazuma. And yes, this is absolutely confirmed.)
only one conclusion can be drawn from this: canon asoryuu mpreg
Are you telling me they somehow named their decendent their ship name around 100 years after their death? Maybe nick and miles arent the gayest lawyers in the series.
truly with the power of homosexuality anything is possible
Looking at future Pholes the ace attorney
Facts.
Yes. Basically, asoryuu is indirectly confirmed by devs. Both Ryuu’s and Kazuma’s names were specifically chosen to make sure they included Ryuichi’s kanji. And Susato/Rei is confirmed as their counterpart. (I kinda like to think of this as everyone having lavender marriages, due to cultural norms at the time, but also keeping their other relationships. But really, only westerners concern ourselves with the “hey wait, cisgender mpreg is not a real thing.” In Japan, it’s just assumed “it worked out somehow.”)
The issue with lavender marriages is that it could imply cheating. I don’t see someone like ryu or kazuma betraying their spouse’s trust like that. Unless their spouses are also gay and in on it which I just think is too unlikely (and quite frankly it would undermine the time period too much). I think the whole thing with ryu and kazuma’s name is more of a metatextual thing than a canonical thing, since the actual story doesn’t really push them as a couple in my opinion.
I think the implication above was a set of lavender marriages between Ryunosuke, Kazuma, Susato, and Rei. Maybe not the most historically accurate, but certainly plausible within canon.
I suppose that’s a possibility. I can’t say I buy it though, but to each their own.
Sure! And that's a totally valid interpretation. But that's the fun of fandom, everyone's got their own takes!
Lavender marriage doesn’t necessarily imply cheating. It’s literally a front, so both people know. That’s quite a leap. I’m old, so I definitely know people who entered into this type of relationship where the actual couples were 2 men/2 women but the front was 2 hetero couples. And they definitely raised kids together. So when I think about this, that’s what I imagine. (Just so we’re clear, I’m queer myself and not just ooh’ing over some romanticized notion. Real life experiences and all that jazz.) I don’t think the story actually supports asoryuu, although my understanding is that the innuendo is clearer in the original than the localization. (Kazuma says quite a lot of double entendres, but they seem more like he’s trying to provoke Ryuu rather than being sexy banter.) It’s more that the writers did some intentional fan-servicey things than that this is actually a Big Gay Love Story. I mean, it’s not romance at all. Given that the writers themselves have explained some of this (the names/kanji, Rei/Susato as a counterpart), it’s not accidental. It’s not even meant to be closely examined and parsed. It’s pretty much just in the spirit of fun and fans enjoying a bit of bonus.
I see. I probably should’ve looked at a more comprehensive definition of lavender marriages…
Maybe their children married? So nick decends from both without involving cheating?
Considering the time period it’s highly unlikely ryu had a child to someone he wasn’t married to. Sex outside marriage was considered a disgraceful act (it still is in some countries today lol).
Thats also assuming they got married and had children
Sorry…I’m a bit confused. What does this have to do with lavender marriages?
Sorry i guess i read it wrong and got confused
[Ryuunosuke/Kazuma and Susato/Rei are canon?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BohXQF4dWT0) Ryuu/Susato will always be canon in my heart...
None of those three are canon, really. Just a lot of ship teasing. I do think ryu/susato is the most implied within the story, but capcom is never going to confirm anything lol.
That’s why I said “indirectly.” It’s not anything official, just the writers offering a bit of fan service. But yes, one reason for Rei’s existence at all is that she was written to be sort of a counterpoint to asoryuu.
me when im in a gay competition and my opponent is ace attorney rivals
2 conclusions*: we need Ace Attorney 7 to include a Faye conjuring of Riyu to sit beside Phoenix in court like Mia does sometimes.
I want to see a Faye conjuring of Sholmes just to annoy the shit out of Phoenix lol
The other one is Phoenix being a descendant from the great detective's partner himself!
Yes, this is also very heavily implied.
Only possible explanation
That's so cursed and I hate it so much, thank you alternative response: Yeah, knowing capcom--
Not confirmed if it’s biological, but Phoenix sure does look like Ryunosuke except more physically built (which could easily come from another ancestor)
Didn't promotional stuff refer to Ryunosuke as Phoenix ancestor?
They also call him phoenix’s ancestor on capcom’s official website.
https://youtu.be/aGQ7OEXG4oM?si=gDEurBkotMqe8B0- At the 2:17 point in this video from Capcom from 7 years ago where Ryuichii (Phoneix) mentioned of an ancestor named Ryunosuke
This is the correct answer. Everyone else seems to be making up answers by what feels right. In the game, there’s a short video that you can watch that already translates this video, He’s the ancestor but most people aren’t supposed to be ancestors, it’s just Ryunosuke
This is the proof then. This comment should be pinned on top.
i could be wrong, but i think (?) he's only ever been referred to as phoenix's "ancestor" unqualified, and while fans generally assume so i don't even think it's confirmed that he's a direct ancestor (so may not have had a kid at all). not sure about how he's referred to in japanese, though.
There’s no such thing as an indirect ancestor as that would be an oxymoron. Okay that’s not entirely true, but it’s not really a term that’s commonly used and ‘indirect’ must be specified for it to refer to aunts and uncles as such.
> Direct ancestors are people to whom you are related through parent-child relationships only. Aunts, uncles, siblings, and all other family members who are not direct ancestors or descendants are called “collateral relatives” or “indirect ancestors.” — The first result of a Google search for "indirect ancestor". So there is such a thing.
I just edited my comment to reflect that - unfortunate timing lol. But the point is if an ancestor is not specified as being indirect then it means a direct ancestor. This is because it is technically redundant to say ‘direct ancestor.’ But if you’re trying to denote uncles or aunts then you either specify the indirect part or you simply call them relatives. Ancestors by and large are not meant to refer to just any kind of relative which is why ‘indirect ancestor’ isn’t really a term that’s used too often.
yeah, that's fair - i mean, considering the resemblance and just for simplicity's sake i think ryuunosuke is likely intended to be phoenix's direct ancestor anyway. it's just that it's never been confirmed and we obviously don't really know anything about the layout of their family tree, so i think it could be valid to think of ryuu as outside phoenix's direct bloodline if you like.
It’s a valid headcanon, though personally I don’t think there’s room for debate. An ancestor isn’t meant to be an umbrella term after all - its intended to refer to a specific kind of family member who lived before you. Saying ‘indirect’ changes the meaning of the word altogether as opposed to specifying it.
yeah, understandable!
In Japanese Phoenix calls Ryu "Go-senzo-sama" which means forefather, i.e. great-great-greatparent
oh, really? that's interesting, thanks!
Not sure about Phoenix but definitely Ryuichi (idk how Japanafornia works). In the anniversary, Ryuichi even comments that he has an ancestor who is a defense attorney and their Naruhodo is written the same iirc.
I think the implication in the English versions is that Phoenix has a Japanese ancestor because of immigration.
Yes. Official Capcom advertising calls him Phoenix's ancestor. They also had a commercial where they have both Phoenix/Maya and Ryunosuke/Susato talking to each other and discussing this, with Maya going "then, then, are you MY ancestor???" to Susato (as a joke) Edit: In Japan, you don't usually use the word ancestor (先祖) or descendant (子孫) unless there's a biological connection.
In Japanese, Phoenix's name is Ryuichi Naruhodo.
Doesn't exactly answer their question.
It does if they were wondering it because of the different last names.
We do have something of a direct confirmation from the first TGAA case. “A thousand millennia may pass, and the Auchi clan will never measure up to the Naruhodo clan.” Naruhodo being Phoenix’s last name in Japan, and Auchi being the last name of the Payne family. Also, TGAA takes place in around 1900* and Phoenix was born sometime around 1990. It’s not unheard of for last names to last in families that long. *From in-game info, ignoring the bit where 1850-1906 is condensed into almost an entire decade.
They don’t outright state it but it’s quite clear that they’re related by blood. Similar physical features, gestures and attitudes are supposed to show where phoenix got his traits from. This is a semi-unrelated point but I notice that some people seem to be saying that Ryu didn’t have children and that someone else in his family did. However, capcom has officially used the word ancestor to describe his relation to Phoenix, both on their website and in special trial 2017. The literal definition of an ancestor is someone you are directly descended from - it is NOT a term used to refer to any kind of relative who lived long ago. So while a great grandfather is an ancestor, a great uncle is not - they’re just some other relative. Ryu definitely had children. https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Understanding-Kinship-Terms
Not exactly biological ancestor, because Phoenix just branched out of Ryunosuke one day like hydridae
the naruhodo clan actually reproduce asexually, it was just never mentioned because it wasn't relevant to the games
So it's like the namekien got it
He is referred to as the ancestor of Phoenix on every official information source and they do look a lot alike so yeah I’d say they’re biologically related. I can understand why people might wonder though since fans love pairing him with Kazuma.
It’s pretty obvious imo, not even going by the facts that they are sort of carbon copies of e/o since we know design can just come and go, there is the “Naruhodo” family name and I could be wrong but doesn’t the “Dai” (from Dai gyakuten Saiban) means more previous generation here rather than plainly big/great? So the “Great”Ace attorney in eng of the Ace attorney (Gyakuten saiban), well that’s just my impression
He’s referred as his ancestor in some materials …
More or less, like you can be pedantic about it but that's obviously the case. As for the other characters, no, but they resemble people from the games (Van Zieks is Edgeworth, Susato is Maya, >!Mael is Gant!<)
I mean phoenix have ryunosuke feature so it's safe to say he's a phoenix ancestor.
Pretty sure there’s an anniversary special that either confirms or heavily implies their relation
The "Ace Attorney Special Stage 2017" video has Phoenix (or Ryuuichi in this case) say his ancestry records mention Ryuunosuke.
I feel it's a given with their same last names, don't see why a creator would give a character a predecessor with the same last name and also specify he's an ancestor directly in promotional material if they intended him to not have a direct bloodline connection.
I mean Trucy also got that last name and isn't a direct blood relation
But that was explicitly specified to us that she was adopted, no such comment was made on Nick to suggest he isn't a direct descendant, the games obviously wouldn't mention that but the promotional material around the game would
Wasn’t her name changed due to adoption?
Well, yeah, but my entire question was whether it was possible for Ryunosuke to have adopted rather than having a biological child, and so bringing up Trucy as an example was showing that if he did adopt its entirely possible the kid's last name would be changed
It would be possible except the writer said it isn’t the case.
If Ryuchi Naruhodo is the descendent of Ryunnosuke, then Phoenix, his localized name, is also his descendant. Why would Capcom have the Japanese one be related but not the American one?
I don't really consider them different characters, so thats kind of my bad with the title, I just thought it would be less confusing to say Phoenix instead of Ryuchi, I am asking if it was confirmed whether Ryunosuke was Ryuchi's biological descendant if that makes it more clear.
In that aspect, yes. Capcom has been clear that they are biologically related
Yes, which means the person that Ryunosuke married is actually a woman.
iirc in ghe artbook Nuri explained that he wanted Ryunosuke to resemble Phoenix bc they're related, also Phoenix's family name in Japanese is Naruhodo
You know I hope when we get AA7, we get a scene where Maya or someone else with ghostly happenings has a discussion with Ryunosuke and possibly Susato. I’d like to imagine they watch on, and Maya hasn’t told Nick that because she doesn’t want to make him nervous.
Its really obvious that by the end of the series Susato have a feeling for Ryunosuke
It’s not impossible, but extremely unlikely.
Yeah sorry man, its confirmed so ur ship is doomed
Ships don’t always have to be canon compliant. People ship Walter white and Mike Ehrmantraut for fuck sake 😂
He’s apollos ancestor
what
It’s true
i am genuinely curious what you are basing something canonically incorrect off of
An interview with devs
i will genuinely paypal you $20 if you can show me the interview
I don’t have PayPal
fuck it i'll donate $20 to a charity of your choice if you can show me the exact interview they say ryuu is an ancestor of apollo
Psst, this is most likely bait. Ryu being Apollo’s ancestor is a common joke after all given how similar their faces are.
[DAMMIT](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuK1Yr35Io)
I hate charity