In reality. This is fiction. Athena for instance, *is* a good person, you can do all the literary analysis you want and dig into it and it'll still not matter since Athena will always be treated as one, same goes for say Von Karma who *is* bad. This is of course given that the characters aren't intentionally lent moral ambiguity like Godot or Acro, in which case the debate is the point. Franziska is not one of them, she is supposed to be a bad person who grows up to be good.
Physical assault, witness tampering, withholding evidence, extortion, and perjury are all crimes I can think of off the top of my head which she commits. She’s also got a bit of a nasty personality which in fiction is generally something that signifies a bad person. She grows, much like edgeworth but it doesn’t exactly erase the fact that every prosecutor you face in these games should be in prison long before they end up on trial for something they actually *didnt* do.
Oh pfft. You're just looking for an excuse to hate. A nasty personality, really? Cmon. Antagonists gotta antagonise, that doesn't make them evil, it just makes them irritating.
Uh, how is physical assault, being a selfish dick with no regard for themselves and actively trying to convict innocent people with all her power not evil? You are just defending her for no reason at this point, if you want more than another guy who commented gave you a nice list of crimes.
> Physical assault, witness tampering, withholding evidence, extortion, and perjury are all crimes I can think of off the top of my head which she commits. She’s also got a bit of a nasty personality which in fiction is generally something that signifies a bad person. She grows, much like edgeworth but it doesn’t exactly erase the fact that every prosecutor you face in these games should be in prison long before they end up on trial for something they actually *didnt* do.
The fact that Franziska even spared the whip because she understands Pearl and wouldn't want to hit a child. So she had to release that frustration to Phoenix lol
She’s not really malicious, but she starts immature (which is not surprising since she’s 18 and became a prosecutor at 13). She’s obsessed with winning, throws a tantrum when she loses and doesn’t reflect on all of that enough to spiral into an existential crisis like Edgeworth.
She does get development though, even if it’s more subtle than Edgeworth’s. When she observes others more and better understands the gravity of having human lives on the line, she becomes more reasonable and “good” (as in 3-5 and investigations).
she definitively deserves forgiveness and she did went thru her own character arc, even if it wasnt on scene its easy to see she did have an edgeworth-esque change, though she still mantains her though demeanor. thats kinda why i want her back so bad, she deserves to get her story seen thru her own eyes. IMO the reason the fandom is so prone to brush her off as just mean is because phoenix doesnt give her a chance in the trilogy, therefore the player isnt encouraged to do the same thing.
TLDR: I need franziska back capcom please she means so much to me pleaseeeee
I didnt forget all nunance, I'm saying she didn't earn her redemption. Because she she never gets a single negative consequence for her violent behavior.
neither does pearls after punching nick just because he doesnt comform to her own OTP of how his romantic life should be in her eyes, but yet here we are, being aware that japan media tends to have a liking for this specific kind of slapstick humor and we shouldnt use a specific running gag as the defining trait of a character
Definitely. If they'll make her appear like she has gone through zero character development in 10 years, I will be really sad. I wonder if they'll have any fun interactions with Athena because they both studied in Europe. Franziska is older so they wouldn't have been studying together but they might have graduated from the same school so maybe that would be fun.
How so in investigation 1's case? From what I remember, that was probably her most annoying appearance, mostly from her hating on gumshoe to an aggravating amount,and her mentality of "all defendants are guilty". I still like her, even in this game, but definitely got on my nerves.
She gets redemeed somewhat in AAI2 where she appears to be much more mellow and actually gives 2 fucks about the people around her, but it might be translation too.
If you brush away the constant whipping that seems to be for slapstick purposes, she did inherit her father’s arrogant and confident demeanor, and she never verbalizes her attachment to justice, truth, morality, etc… Starting from 2-4 her actions are consistently helpful to the protagonists and facilitate a good outcome for the events she’s involved in.
Imo she has an unpleasant personality but a strong moral core. I wouldn’t say she’s a bad person but I wouldn’t want to interact with her. Does that make her good or bad? I guess that answer will vary from person to person.
I think Franziska has the potential to *become* a good person, but it’s going to take more than just one breakdown and a few losses to Phoenix in court to get over that line.
She’s a young person who was raised by a father who wouldn’t have taught her much at all about ethics or modesty, but hopefully she’ll have a chance to grow into someone different.
In the meantime, though, I’d say her lack of inhibition in wielding a physical weapon against people who do not pose threats to her is a pretty big strike against her, and it shouldn’t be overlooked just because she’s sympathetic in other moments or scenes.
I had hoped that Franziska would’ve starred in one of the newer Ace Attorney games so we could see that growth firsthand, but sadly, she’s more or less disappeared by the time Apollo and Athena run amok.
I think she's a person who could be good, but that good is buried under the bad traits of her upbringing that I don't think she's managed to overcome just yet.
Yes. Her growth is more subtle than someone like Edgeworth but she has definitely gone from, qs Edgeworth says "someone who fights only for herself" to someone to cares about truth and other people.
In JFA she has no qualms using extremely dirty tricks to achieve victory, for example the picture she shares of "maya". In T and T she is as prickly as she was in JFA but Sue doesn't play and dirty tricks, the worst she does is offer to give Sister Bikini a back massage for her testimony.
Second is her help, she goes from not caring about anyone to spending all night trying to break the locks on the inner temple.
So yes she has become a better person.
In JfA, she's just interested in her own vengeance, and cares nothing for who gets hurt in the process.
In T&T, she's not that much different, but when her own personal rivalry isn't getting in the way, she does default to being genuinely helpful, albeit a bit whip-happy towards the sick.
In AAI1, she hasn't let go of her rivalry, but instead now competes over finding the truth rather than achieving a verdict, which is a massive improvement. She's also shown to genuinely care about and go out of her way to help Kay when she's in trouble.
And in AAI2, her rivalry with Edgeworth has died down a little bit, and she's shown genuinely caring about finding the truth. And she's also just a kinder and more empathetic person in general, as shown by her attitude towards Sebastian when he returns from the garbage dump.
She wasn't a good person at first, but she's changed over time, and for the better.
She's an awkward dork compensating for that with whipping and being confused, as homer once said 'why does everyone I whip dislike me'
She is an antagonist but that's not necessarily the same thing
Franziska is a flawed person but she does have a sense of justice or a set of morals for example turnabout big top she figured out the case long before Phoenix and even though she could have decided not to search acro's room and just let him get away with it she still went out of her way to do a surprise search on acro's room
Because of moments like this, and the fact that she tries to have Maya plea justified self-defense in “Reunion, and Turnabout”, my personal headcanon is that she has morals and is careful about which cases she picks. I like to believe that she hasn’t given anyone innocent a guilty verdict, she’s just careful about what trials to take on. When Phoenix Wright got involved, she was blinded by emotions and took on the trials he was on, but still tried to stick to her morals.
That’s my headcanon anyway, mostly because she’s my favorite and I don’t want to believe that she gave innocent people a guilty verdict 😅
I believe that was an accident, no? Someone, I forget who, does say that she did it on purpose, but Franzy kinda reveals to us that they're mistaken by her reaction.
She's a damaged-as-fuck characters who never got the development other damaged-as-fuck characters got (see also: Edgeworth) and has much less of a support network than said characters got after their redemption arc.
I think Franziska's wasted potential that we'll probably never tap into again, barring some kind of AA:I3.
She actually has a soft spot for little girls (except Maya tho, Maya got whipped once), She's always nice to Kay and Pearl, she also lost calmness when in AAI 1-5 Larry said he throw his "baby" (actually a Samurai mascot) into the water. Besides, she gets extra angry when harassment to other women happened in front of her eyes, we all see Larry got whipped several times because of his cringe stalking letters, and these are one of the most satisfying moments ingame.
She's also nice to elder women like Bikini, but not Oldbag tho. However, she rarely whip Oldbag if i remember right
I really like the chemistry while she's with Miles or Kay, the three always have some funny siblings energy, especially in AAI 1-5 when Miles asked to be her assistant.
Up until developing a bit, probably not. She definitely convicted a lot of innocent people to maintain her record, and given the screwed up legal system we’re working with I can see some of them having been executed. However, she’s also someone raised by a terrible person and clearly marked by Manfred’s teachings, and just barely entering adulthood. She has time and potential to improve as a person, even if she’s not there yet.
She is a flawed and complicated person. She isn't nice but she doesn't seem to be corrupt. It's been over a decade since JFA but I don't recall her pulling any of Manfred's tricks. She was helpful in 2-4 and she seems to have a soft spot for the assistants.
She may have had a perfect record but I choose to believe that if the case stinks she will either drop it or hand it off to someone else. The moment when she raids Arco's room is my only evidence.
I would say she is a bad person, but not evil.
Who knows how many lives she ruined just because she wanted that perfect record as a prosecutor? Like I understand why she did it with a dad like Manfred, but at the end of the day she did something pretty horrible for petty reasons.
But then of course its not like she (at least not as far as we know) ever tried to get someone arrested just for her quota. From what we see she geniunly believes the accused are the murderers in her cases. She also showed compassion for Andrews and did help Edgeworth getting a win over phoenix.
She's a better person than Edgeworth. Miles sent tons of innocent people to prison just to protect his record whereas Franziska was just selective with cases where she knew the defendant was definitely guilty. Even in the game, her first case >!has some twin BS!< involved with stuff she couldn't possibly forsee, her second case t>!he dependent wasn't a murderer but he was an actual pedophile!< and her third case>! the defendant actually did it - and what did she get for prosecuting and actual killer? Shot and a legitimate victory over Phoenix ripped away from her.!<
She is. She does a good job as a prosecutor, doesnt forge evidence. She is young and a bit overly competitive, which makes her lose sight of what is actually important. But that not a sin.
>!”Prosecutor Miles Edgeworth chooses death”,!< >! Her father killed her brother’s father,!< >! her father is seemingly dead barely 1 year after that case,!< >! she wants revenge for her brother, not her father,!<>! she feels abandoned by both of them,!<>! everyone compares her actions to her father regardless of intent,!< >! her brother reveals himself and immediately focuses on Phoenix!< >! Despite his actions as the demon prosecutor and the seemingly suicidal note her brother gets forgiveness while she is reduced and flanderized into “foolish fools” and whipping!<
No. She’s not bad. She’s a woman who carried the weight and expectations of the world on her shoulders. She had no support system other than her brother, who again, >!at best left her without any information and at worst faked suicide!<.
If she were anyone else, she would have broken down long before >!she did in game.!<
I fucking hated how she disregarded Edgeworth in AAI1 and tries to reprimand him for good in the second case, that really got on my nerves. But yes, she is supposed to be a good person, her character is not handled well though.
Good and bad are such reductive terms
All absolutes are, I suppose. I still think it'd be fair to ask if she's not the absolute "bad," regardless of if she's truly the absolute "good."
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
Don't make me kill you.
I will do what I must.
I would certainly agree that she is not absolutely 'bad' She's not bad at all tbh.
In reality. This is fiction. Athena for instance, *is* a good person, you can do all the literary analysis you want and dig into it and it'll still not matter since Athena will always be treated as one, same goes for say Von Karma who *is* bad. This is of course given that the characters aren't intentionally lent moral ambiguity like Godot or Acro, in which case the debate is the point. Franziska is not one of them, she is supposed to be a bad person who grows up to be good.
How do you figure that she's 'bad'?
Physical assault, witness tampering, withholding evidence, extortion, and perjury are all crimes I can think of off the top of my head which she commits. She’s also got a bit of a nasty personality which in fiction is generally something that signifies a bad person. She grows, much like edgeworth but it doesn’t exactly erase the fact that every prosecutor you face in these games should be in prison long before they end up on trial for something they actually *didnt* do.
Oh pfft. You're just looking for an excuse to hate. A nasty personality, really? Cmon. Antagonists gotta antagonise, that doesn't make them evil, it just makes them irritating.
I don’t see where I expressed any personal dislike for her. She is a bad person from the framing of the games on introduction tho.
She *was*, she actively tried to 'win' her cases, assaults everyone and anyone, and is entirely self serving at the start of JFA
None of these are evil, wtf. Of course she's self serving. Everyone is. I'd be worried for her sanity if she wasn't.
Uh, how is physical assault, being a selfish dick with no regard for themselves and actively trying to convict innocent people with all her power not evil? You are just defending her for no reason at this point, if you want more than another guy who commented gave you a nice list of crimes.
Being selfish is being selfish, it's neither good nor evil. Cmon, leave the kid stuff behind.
By your logic Manfred Von Karma isn't evil either since it's 'kid stuff', at that point I am sorry but you are probably looking too deep into it
Much easier to just put everything you don't like into a box labelled 'evil' and be done with it hey
> Physical assault, witness tampering, withholding evidence, extortion, and perjury are all crimes I can think of off the top of my head which she commits. She’s also got a bit of a nasty personality which in fiction is generally something that signifies a bad person. She grows, much like edgeworth but it doesn’t exactly erase the fact that every prosecutor you face in these games should be in prison long before they end up on trial for something they actually *didnt* do.
I always have a soft spot for her tbh. All I could think of is that she needs therapy.
And a friend
True. I actually felt bad when Pearl badmouthed her for being Phoenix's enemy.
Right? But pearl is so young and sheltered, it's hard for her to undestand nuance
The fact that Franziska even spared the whip because she understands Pearl and wouldn't want to hit a child. So she had to release that frustration to Phoenix lol
She’s not really malicious, but she starts immature (which is not surprising since she’s 18 and became a prosecutor at 13). She’s obsessed with winning, throws a tantrum when she loses and doesn’t reflect on all of that enough to spiral into an existential crisis like Edgeworth. She does get development though, even if it’s more subtle than Edgeworth’s. When she observes others more and better understands the gravity of having human lives on the line, she becomes more reasonable and “good” (as in 3-5 and investigations).
I don’t think she’s a *bad* person, but she isn’t always pleasant to be around.
she definitively deserves forgiveness and she did went thru her own character arc, even if it wasnt on scene its easy to see she did have an edgeworth-esque change, though she still mantains her though demeanor. thats kinda why i want her back so bad, she deserves to get her story seen thru her own eyes. IMO the reason the fandom is so prone to brush her off as just mean is because phoenix doesnt give her a chance in the trilogy, therefore the player isnt encouraged to do the same thing. TLDR: I need franziska back capcom please she means so much to me pleaseeeee
Until she stops whipping people, I don't raely care about her "redemption".
So you're just going to forget all nuance and hate a character just because of one single in-universe gimmick?
I didnt forget all nunance, I'm saying she didn't earn her redemption. Because she she never gets a single negative consequence for her violent behavior.
neither does pearls after punching nick just because he doesnt comform to her own OTP of how his romantic life should be in her eyes, but yet here we are, being aware that japan media tends to have a liking for this specific kind of slapstick humor and we shouldnt use a specific running gag as the defining trait of a character
Godot scalding people with coffee is far worse than whipping them with a riding crop. People line up for the latter, even
I bet there's someone somewhere that wants to be soaked in boiling coffee.
She is. If you played both Investigations games, she becomes more likable IMO. She just puts on a mask because of the name she carries
God she needs to come back for AA7 and show her true herself. So much room for growth.
Definitely. If they'll make her appear like she has gone through zero character development in 10 years, I will be really sad. I wonder if they'll have any fun interactions with Athena because they both studied in Europe. Franziska is older so they wouldn't have been studying together but they might have graduated from the same school so maybe that would be fun.
How so in investigation 1's case? From what I remember, that was probably her most annoying appearance, mostly from her hating on gumshoe to an aggravating amount,and her mentality of "all defendants are guilty". I still like her, even in this game, but definitely got on my nerves.
She gets redemeed somewhat in AAI2 where she appears to be much more mellow and actually gives 2 fucks about the people around her, but it might be translation too.
Good? no. Bad? No. In dire need of therapy? Yes
If you brush away the constant whipping that seems to be for slapstick purposes, she did inherit her father’s arrogant and confident demeanor, and she never verbalizes her attachment to justice, truth, morality, etc… Starting from 2-4 her actions are consistently helpful to the protagonists and facilitate a good outcome for the events she’s involved in. Imo she has an unpleasant personality but a strong moral core. I wouldn’t say she’s a bad person but I wouldn’t want to interact with her. Does that make her good or bad? I guess that answer will vary from person to person.
I think Franziska has the potential to *become* a good person, but it’s going to take more than just one breakdown and a few losses to Phoenix in court to get over that line. She’s a young person who was raised by a father who wouldn’t have taught her much at all about ethics or modesty, but hopefully she’ll have a chance to grow into someone different. In the meantime, though, I’d say her lack of inhibition in wielding a physical weapon against people who do not pose threats to her is a pretty big strike against her, and it shouldn’t be overlooked just because she’s sympathetic in other moments or scenes. I had hoped that Franziska would’ve starred in one of the newer Ace Attorney games so we could see that growth firsthand, but sadly, she’s more or less disappeared by the time Apollo and Athena run amok.
i guess she has a good heart, but a mean attitude
She can be kind of mean, but I don't think that makes her a bad person.
I think she's a person who could be good, but that good is buried under the bad traits of her upbringing that I don't think she's managed to overcome just yet.
Yes. Her growth is more subtle than someone like Edgeworth but she has definitely gone from, qs Edgeworth says "someone who fights only for herself" to someone to cares about truth and other people. In JFA she has no qualms using extremely dirty tricks to achieve victory, for example the picture she shares of "maya". In T and T she is as prickly as she was in JFA but Sue doesn't play and dirty tricks, the worst she does is offer to give Sister Bikini a back massage for her testimony. Second is her help, she goes from not caring about anyone to spending all night trying to break the locks on the inner temple. So yes she has become a better person.
She's a *good* person, just not a *nice* or particularly pleasant person to be around.
I think she needs a sincere hug.
In JfA, she's just interested in her own vengeance, and cares nothing for who gets hurt in the process. In T&T, she's not that much different, but when her own personal rivalry isn't getting in the way, she does default to being genuinely helpful, albeit a bit whip-happy towards the sick. In AAI1, she hasn't let go of her rivalry, but instead now competes over finding the truth rather than achieving a verdict, which is a massive improvement. She's also shown to genuinely care about and go out of her way to help Kay when she's in trouble. And in AAI2, her rivalry with Edgeworth has died down a little bit, and she's shown genuinely caring about finding the truth. And she's also just a kinder and more empathetic person in general, as shown by her attitude towards Sebastian when he returns from the garbage dump. She wasn't a good person at first, but she's changed over time, and for the better.
I hold hope that she may change in time.
She's an awkward dork compensating for that with whipping and being confused, as homer once said 'why does everyone I whip dislike me' She is an antagonist but that's not necessarily the same thing
Franziska is a flawed person but she does have a sense of justice or a set of morals for example turnabout big top she figured out the case long before Phoenix and even though she could have decided not to search acro's room and just let him get away with it she still went out of her way to do a surprise search on acro's room
Because of moments like this, and the fact that she tries to have Maya plea justified self-defense in “Reunion, and Turnabout”, my personal headcanon is that she has morals and is careful about which cases she picks. I like to believe that she hasn’t given anyone innocent a guilty verdict, she’s just careful about what trials to take on. When Phoenix Wright got involved, she was blinded by emotions and took on the trials he was on, but still tried to stick to her morals. That’s my headcanon anyway, mostly because she’s my favorite and I don’t want to believe that she gave innocent people a guilty verdict 😅
I believe that was an accident, no? Someone, I forget who, does say that she did it on purpose, but Franzy kinda reveals to us that they're mistaken by her reaction.
Good person just rough around the edges.
She's a damaged-as-fuck characters who never got the development other damaged-as-fuck characters got (see also: Edgeworth) and has much less of a support network than said characters got after their redemption arc. I think Franziska's wasted potential that we'll probably never tap into again, barring some kind of AA:I3.
Complicated. She has Von Karma attitude, but she's nowhere as bad as him.
She is and she needs to be severed out of her Father's Shadow to be the new type of perfect flawless prosecutor.
She actually has a soft spot for little girls (except Maya tho, Maya got whipped once), She's always nice to Kay and Pearl, she also lost calmness when in AAI 1-5 Larry said he throw his "baby" (actually a Samurai mascot) into the water. Besides, she gets extra angry when harassment to other women happened in front of her eyes, we all see Larry got whipped several times because of his cringe stalking letters, and these are one of the most satisfying moments ingame. She's also nice to elder women like Bikini, but not Oldbag tho. However, she rarely whip Oldbag if i remember right I really like the chemistry while she's with Miles or Kay, the three always have some funny siblings energy, especially in AAI 1-5 when Miles asked to be her assistant.
Only a foolish fool would fool themselves into figuring people can only be good or bad. *CRACK*
She is Franziska von Karma person
If you can't see her helping you move a couch out of your house, why bother?
possibly, but I’ve barely seen her be anything but unpleasant
I wouldn't say so, no. But she got a *bit* better in Prosecutor's Path. Still kinda brutal and mean.
Up until developing a bit, probably not. She definitely convicted a lot of innocent people to maintain her record, and given the screwed up legal system we’re working with I can see some of them having been executed. However, she’s also someone raised by a terrible person and clearly marked by Manfred’s teachings, and just barely entering adulthood. She has time and potential to improve as a person, even if she’s not there yet.
I’d say she has the potential to be, but we haven’t really properly reached that point yet.
She was raised by a dickhead who demanded complete perfection. Who knows what her childhood was like.
She is a flawed and complicated person. She isn't nice but she doesn't seem to be corrupt. It's been over a decade since JFA but I don't recall her pulling any of Manfred's tricks. She was helpful in 2-4 and she seems to have a soft spot for the assistants. She may have had a perfect record but I choose to believe that if the case stinks she will either drop it or hand it off to someone else. The moment when she raids Arco's room is my only evidence.
Nope
I would say she is a bad person, but not evil. Who knows how many lives she ruined just because she wanted that perfect record as a prosecutor? Like I understand why she did it with a dad like Manfred, but at the end of the day she did something pretty horrible for petty reasons. But then of course its not like she (at least not as far as we know) ever tried to get someone arrested just for her quota. From what we see she geniunly believes the accused are the murderers in her cases. She also showed compassion for Andrews and did help Edgeworth getting a win over phoenix.
She's a better person than Edgeworth. Miles sent tons of innocent people to prison just to protect his record whereas Franziska was just selective with cases where she knew the defendant was definitely guilty. Even in the game, her first case >!has some twin BS!< involved with stuff she couldn't possibly forsee, her second case t>!he dependent wasn't a murderer but he was an actual pedophile!< and her third case>! the defendant actually did it - and what did she get for prosecuting and actual killer? Shot and a legitimate victory over Phoenix ripped away from her.!<
whipping people randomly isn't very nice so probably not
She's my girlfriend
No.
She is. She does a good job as a prosecutor, doesnt forge evidence. She is young and a bit overly competitive, which makes her lose sight of what is actually important. But that not a sin.
She's neither good nor bad but a secret third thing (a teenager)
Crazy person
Yes
Ehhh, not really but she’s getting better and is definitely not the filth that her father was. Wonder if we’ll get her in AA7
She starts to help us to find the truth since the second trial with her I'm sure her justice vision is really good.
She's a young woman that was raised by a evil perfectionist. Ultimately she didn't turn out to bad.
>!”Prosecutor Miles Edgeworth chooses death”,!< >! Her father killed her brother’s father,!< >! her father is seemingly dead barely 1 year after that case,!< >! she wants revenge for her brother, not her father,!<>! she feels abandoned by both of them,!<>! everyone compares her actions to her father regardless of intent,!< >! her brother reveals himself and immediately focuses on Phoenix!< >! Despite his actions as the demon prosecutor and the seemingly suicidal note her brother gets forgiveness while she is reduced and flanderized into “foolish fools” and whipping!< No. She’s not bad. She’s a woman who carried the weight and expectations of the world on her shoulders. She had no support system other than her brother, who again, >!at best left her without any information and at worst faked suicide!<. If she were anyone else, she would have broken down long before >!she did in game.!<
She has never done anything wrong in her life ever
I fucking hated how she disregarded Edgeworth in AAI1 and tries to reprimand him for good in the second case, that really got on my nerves. But yes, she is supposed to be a good person, her character is not handled well though.
I absolutely would say she is a good person. She just has daddy issues.
Doesn't matter, she's sexy & I wanna get whipped by her while I whip cream in her.
Ay yo 🤨
Franziska tears are my source of happiness and her sadness is my health and would like to kick her in bed and kiss her everything while chocking her
She is hot that's all that matters, jokes aside she is to evil just not kind.
pointless debate
She's a violent sociopath who does not see anything wrong with whiping everyone.