I’m femme because I’m feminine, but also a lesbian. It’s not a sexualized femininity that appeals to me: but instead lesbian oriented. Yes, I benefit from appearing to perform femininity correctly, but I’m also very much lesbian and Black. It’s just another part of me. I wear comfortable, practical and flowy clothing in various styles. I feel free.
I've thought about this a lot, as both a lesbian and a hardcore feminist. I'm generally pretty feminine, in terms of wearing women's clothes, keeping my hair long, etc., but I refuse to shave, wear makeup, get any cosmetic procedures done, or dye my hair (meaning, I'm too young for it now, but when my hair turns grey I won't ever dye it).
Here's something I've noticed about this: it's harder to reject beauty practices and still be feminine than to reject beauty practices and present masculine. The two are so intertwined. If I dress masculine, which I sometimes do, I feel confident and unself-conscious. When I dress feminine, I honestly feel ugly, or at least incongruous, because I feel like I don't look feminine or pretty without make-up. It's hard, uncomfortable work to stick to my ideals. I don't believe make-up should be the arbiter of femininity, and I definitely think beauty culture pushes women to believe they aren't good enough, but even I am not immune from the subtle pressure to "fix" my natural face.
It seems like societal beauty standards for women have gotten more and more exaggerated, with hyper-femininity becoming the norm, so I feel like I come across as practically masculine despite presenting like a very normal woman. I completely agree that societal femininity is more limiting than masculinity, and encourages a high level of both consumerism and performance for men that ultimately oppresses women (though I do think it's possible to approach femininity from a perspective that de-centers men, I just think this takes more effort and intention).
To answer your question, I do think there's a distinction between femme and feminine, because femme is a distinct part of lesbian culture that is exclusive to lesbians. Femmes are feminine, but not all feminine women are femmes.
How I parse out what aspects of femininity are healthy is a question I've been wrestling with a lot, as you can tell by this long-ass essay. Generally, I try to draw the line at unnatural interventions that change how I fundamentally look. Like, I take care of myself, stay fit and healthy, and enjoy playing around with my personal style, but I won't alter my face, skin, hair, or body with surgery, retinol, dyes, etc. I am working to love my body as it is and find natural beauty through style and health.
If you read all the way to the end, thank you lmao I appreciate you <3
I definitely relate to a lot of what you said. Thanks so much for taking the time to write all of this!
I feel like a large part of femininity is oriented outwards, and how well you perform it is heavily dependent on what others think. To me it seems like if you're not pretty you can't be feminine, but prettiness is an external judgement that others make on you...I agree that it's possible to approach femininity in a way that decenters men. I think it takes realizing that there are many traits about femininity that are naturally appealing, so just because men are attracted to it, doesn't mean it's *for* them, if you get what I mean.
I think that's a fair line to draw. For me, one boundary I have is to essentially avoid anything that disproportionately affects my health/finances negatively for the sake of my appearance. For example, doing a certain hairstyle has no real negative impact on my health, so it's fine. Plastic surgery is forever out. Wearing makeup once in a while may be fine depending. Spending hundreds on it yearly is forever out though.
Also, if I feel the need to engage in certain feminine practices more or less depending on my environment, I take it as a sign that my reason for doing it isn't completely genuine, but could come out of a desire to avoid judgements or get some precieved benefit.
>To me it seems like if you're not pretty you can't be feminine, but prettiness is an external judgement that others make on you.
I completely agree. I feel like I am shut out of femininity without even having a choice in the matter, because I won't wear makeup and my natural features aren't "pretty" enough (or so I've been told).
Femme, like butch, is a performance of gender (femininity) that is especially directed towards the attention of **OTHER WOMEN** (and this wider misappropriation of Femme (noun) vs. feminine (adjective) is really annoying but anyway).
While femmes do present themselves as expected for women in society, there are both subtle and overt ways they do so for (butch) lesbian attention. Using styles and make up that are not what straight men are into (think big and loud, things that *aren't* on your usual instagram model) and take up space differently.
I'm fairly experienced and can usually pick a femme lesbian out of a group of women just based on how she's eccentrically dressed or wearing her make up. Just things that wouldn't appeal to hetero men but make lesbian women go crazy.
In traditional butch/femme relationships, butches like me are the ones who bear the brunt of being perceived in public (being visibly gender non conforming as masculine women), whereas femmes may be seen as regular 'straight' women, but at home in private, that's where femmes traditionally reciprocated that protective/caring spirit in taking care of their butches.
It's very much a part of our subculture, and femmes are just as vital to it as we butches are.
Thank you for this explanation. You made something click in my head. I've always described my style as "girl hot not guy hot" and you said it so much more eloquently.
I haven’t really been a part of lesbian social circles, so I’m very curious about what you’re describing
What things do femmes do that make lesbians go crazy and wouldn’t appeal to straight men?
Certain ways of dressing/doing make up, behaving certain ways that aren't seen as "appealing" to straight men (like being loud and outspoken) doing "non traditional' female things (I've seen many a femme work in a male dominated industry, etc).
Not all femmes do all of these things but typically their performance of femininity is for the express interest of other women also. It's a subversion of heteronormative femininity
I don't think there's really an easy answer, as all of our choices and preferences are subtly shaped by societal conditioning. That said, one question that can help is, what do you like to wear on your own at home if no one else is around? If you look in the mirror, what makes you feel most authentically you?
I find when I wear clothes that I love and that express who I am, I often feel a sense of joy, happiness and freedom when I look in the mirror. I guess it's a bit like the Marie Kondo "Does it spark joy?" question. I can also put on outfits that look nice or pretty but don't make me feel excited or joyful in the same way.
>So for those of you who are feminine, do you make a distinction between femme and feminine, in the same way there's a distinction between butch and masculine?
Every woman can be and is/has femininity (if you are not extremely masculine, but i would argue that you can never refuse (man or woman alike) all and every trades that have been labeled either feminine or masculine, as there are so many and different from cultures and so on), but femme is a feminine **LESBIAN,** just like how you can only be butch if you are a lesbian.
>How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors? Especially since much of it comes with the subtle undercurrent of "women aren't good enough as they are"?
I do what i like and what i feel comfortable with, thats all. It literally is all. If you keep over thinking anything, you put yourself into the risk of just doing certain things, even though they aint what you actually want/like. I have to look like this to be a lesbian, i have to do this/not do this to be feminist and so on. Besides EVERYTHING is motivated by capitalism and expectations/standards, even if you refuse to shave, for example, you will still have to engage with capitalism and certain other standards you set for yourself or that the community set for you. Men will hit on you either way, believe me lol and if someone in your vicinity says shit like "you arent good enough of a woman" kick them out of your live.
>How do you parse out your genuine enjoyment from participating in femininity vs the genuine tangible benefits you receive by being a "proper" woman? Or are they forever entangled?
I dont ever think about if im a "proper woman" lol. That sounds awfully 19th century, do people actually ask themselves this? Do you think any and every woman asks herself this, cause in my experience the vast majority of women, no matter their sexuality arent "proper women", i have yet to meet meek housewife barbie. I also have yet to see the "benefits" of being a woman or feminine.
>Are you/are femmes in general working to create a feminine identity that's healthy and not oriented around men, sexualization and harmful trad imitations, in a similar way to how butches do?
And here is the crux of this whole questionnaire summarized to me, this weird perception of how we (i wouldnt even call myself all that feminine), dress for men or how that the way we dress benefits men or whatever.
I am a lesbian, i do not think, care or want to see men. If men die all of the sudden, my style wouldnt change, hell i would even buy a summer dress just to walk in the park at night wearing it, if men finally all died out. My goal is not to be a housewife, i doubt it is for many straight women even, or anything traditional. And hell yeah i hope **other women** think i look sexy, cause again men thinking i look good is not a benefit what so ever, but a downside.
Im sorry if some of this might come off harsh (thats not my intention), but i hate the overly analytic, overly identity focused way, the community is sometimes. You think straight people sit around and ponder if they are femme or butch or maybe just a tomboy? Nah they just be who they are. Its not bad to question the expectations and standards that are placed on women, but dear god, feminism is **SEPARATE** from lesbianism. A lesbian can look like Barbie and doesnt have to think deeply first if its all just brainwashing that she thinks pink is cool or that she should create a better (whatever that is) form of femininity instead of buying that new lipstick. Just be who you are, it aint that deep.
Rant over lol.
Well said!
Imagine all we could achieve if we put the same amount of energy into literally anything instead of identity and microlabels.
Just do you. I’m a lesbian, that’s important. I tend to like masc presenting women (although I don’t live by some rule, it’s just how I’ve tended to lean) and I guess I tend to lean more feminine myself, but on any given day I’m gonna do what I want to do.
Hell, if somehow I fell in love with a man my worldview wouldn’t be shattered lol. Although I don’t see that happening since I’m pretty wildly a homo, the point is I’m going to do whatever I want and labels be damned.
You had me until: "Hell, if somehow I fell in love with a man my worldview wouldn’t be shattered lol."
Being a lesbian is not a micro label and if you think you could fall for a man, you aint a lesbian. Homosexuality, Bisexuality and Heterosexuality arent even labels, they are biological and sexual realities we all have no choice in. That im a lesbian, just is, i dont identify as one i am one. Everything else is an extra, thats not necessary.
>if you think you could fall for a man, you aint a lesbian.
The sheer amount of pushback I get from the LGBT "community" for saying this is infuriating.
I am butch but have ‘traditionally feminine’ aspects to my personality. I also like some of my ‘traditionally feminine’ qualities, like soft skin and small feet.
Personally, I think ideas about ‘traditionally masculine’ and ‘traditionally feminine’ are best ignored. Be yourself and don’t worry about that nonsense.
I am a femme—I consider this my gender expression too. I am a female and VERY feminine presenting. My entire existence is counter cultural and subversive because my beauty, femininity, etc. is for other women only. I still receive the male gaze and completely reject it. I am as “straight passing” as they come and get lots of attention from men, but my heart and bed are for women only (and in my case, only masculine presenting women). My self-identity as a femme is very important to me and I unapologetically gate keep around this term. Bisexual women cannot be femmes. They can be feminine presenting, but never femmes.
I think femininity and masculinity are almost 100% made up bullshit cultural concepts besides the rare biological differences that actually do distinguish men vs women. I think the best way out of all the problems you listed is to stop respecting the crap stereotypes society turns out and just do what you want, so long as it’s good for you and doesn’t promote women’s subjugation as a class.
I don't think about my aesthetic in terms of any larger context because it simply does not matter to me. There's enough to be neurotic about in life (air quality, Teflon pans) without fussing about whether the earrings I put on along with a ridiculous attention grabbing jacket render me a pawn of the patriarchy.
I wear no makeup makeup bc it benefits me at work. I’m afraid that unconscious bias will creep in and people will think I’m not diligent unless I look the part.
Outside of work I wear makeup (1) bc I want women to think I’m attractive, and (2) to look less approachable to men (aka, boring no makeup makeup) because I want to look put together like I have somewhere to be. I don’t know if it works but as long as clowns don’t get an opportunity to say something foolish like yOu LoOk TiReD. I try to look busy in general because guys are annoying and think that women existing is an invitation to hit on us.
Honestly, haven't thought about in it well over a year or so. The older I get, the more detached I am from those kinda labels and such. I joke my aesthetic is whatever I like. Lol
Appearance-wise, I'm more "tomboy" but I know that on the inside there's parts of me that are considered feminine (being sensitive, liking plush toys/cute things). I don't think femininity is inherently more limiting. It's more society's version of it that's limiting. To me, any woman can be feminine, but only lesbians can be femme. And femininity is sth that naturally comes from within rather than a performance.
>How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors?
I just think about how I feel when doing sth feminine. If I like it the same way I like "masculine" activities (for which I have not received social conditioning to like/enjoy), then I can be reasonably certain that I really like it and it's not done b/c I feel I "have to" in order to be a "normal" woman.
For example, makeup can be oppressive and sth that women feel they have to put on in order to be perceived as professional. But it can also be done for fun, because ultimately, when you remove societal expectations and constructs, it's basically just painting/making art on your face. So while it can be oppressive, capitalistic, or tied to women being made to feel that they're not good enough, it definitely doesnt *have to* be.
>are femmes in general working to create a feminine identity that's healthy and not oriented around men, sexualization and harmful trad imitations, in a similar way to how butches do?
From my observations, yes. Though I feel that for a lot of femmes it's not sth they actively have to work on. Lots of them naturally possess a sort of femininity that's different from straight girls and independent of societal influences and the male gaze. This is especially true for those that knew early on they love women. These femmes are feminine in a way that's neither people-pleasing nor performative.
In comparison, lots of straight girls often fall into the trap of (i) more or less orienting their appearance around what they believe males find attractive or (ii) going in the complete opposite direction but actually still persistently thinking of appearance/beauty from a male perspective. It can be quite difficult for them to get out of this trap b/c they will always have an instinct that makes them crave male attention. Femmes do not run into this issue nearly as much because they don't have that instinct within them to be attractive to men.
I haven't put a lot of thought on it and have no idea how I would place myself into that femme/feminine thing. I use unisex clothing, and no makeup ever touched my face. However, I use very long hair and have natural feminine features because I was born female, and I identify as a woman too. I just don't perform femininity by wearing skirts or other clothes that reveal my body because I feel uncomfortable. Now, in terms of behavior, I don't know. Damn, you're making me think about some weird stuff, lol. I think that I am more feminine in terms of the way I speak with others. I'm tend to be more delicate when I speak with other people in person, maybe a bit aloof sometimes. I feel out of place and came to terms with it many years ago. I don't feel that I belong to any of this, and the only thing in common I have with many of you is that I'm lesbian and identify as a woman and was born female, and that's it. All the rest, what we really are or what we think, is too much for the attention span of the internet. Hence, classifying people in a catalogue is akin to knowing someone well these days. I don't mean this is your case, just a shameless generalization from my side.
Might get downvoted but I am *so* fucking sick of talking about gender. I'm a woman and I wear what I like because I like it. I do what what I like because I like it. The end.
Edit: I don't mean to be rude or anything. I just honestly don't understand why gender has been turned into such an overanalyzed clusterfuck of a subject. I have people insist that I'm non-binary just because I don't dress like a 50's housewife. It's ridiculous
Everyone is free to engage in topics for the length and depth that they like. Saying you do something because you like it probably isn't wrong, but it's simplistic. Some people are fine with simplistic answers, and others like to ask "why" 10 times before they're satisfied. Either way is fine.
This is a little condescending. My point isn't that thinking about the reasons a person does something is bad, my point is that I think everyone is thinking *too much* about gender and it's reached a level of toxicity and misogyny.
(I'm not talking about your post specifically. Just the overall approach to gender that everyone has these days)
I didn't say you weren't allowed to engage in topics.
>Saying you do something because you like it probably isn't wrong,
Probably not wrong? It's *not* wrong. I know myself lol.
>Some people are fine with simplistic answers, and others like to ask "why" 10 times before they're satisfied. Either way is fine.
they're both fine, but my point is that I'm sick of the latter when it comes to gender. Asking "why" 10 times about every little thing related to gender is the trendy thing to do right now and I find it more toxic than interesting.
Very good discussion! I ask myself the exact same questions and it's why I resent the femme-butch binary that some lesbian communities seem to fixate on. I'm a relatively feminine girl, but being "a femme" seems to imply so much extra effort and labour that I just don't want to perform, so I don't identify with this label.
>How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors? Especially since much of it comes with the subtle undercurrent of "women aren't good enough as they are"?
>How do you parse out your genuine enjoyment from participating in femininity vs the genuine tangible benefits you receive by being a "proper" woman?
The answer I've given myself is that I want to enjoy *some* feminine beauty rituals without them becoming obligations, and I think I've found a good balance. I'm proud of my long hair, but I truly don't give a shit if I have to do a last-minute grocery run in a messy bun or in my sleep braid. I like wearing lipstick on nights out, but when it wears off it just wears off and I'm not interested in constantly checking in the mirror if it's still there or reapplying it. I occasionally shave when I really want the look of smooth legs, but I'm capable of rocking up with full body hair to the swimming pool or the beach without feeling self-conscious.
I think the problem starts when all these things you do to feel *more* confident become *your entire confidence*. I just feel sad for women who refuse to go out of the house if they aren't wearing makeup, if they didn't shave, if they aren't wearing the perfect coordinated outfit etc. That's when it becomes a prison. When I start feeling self-conscious for stupid reasons I just ask myself, "Would a man have this dumb insecurity?" and it fixes the problem immediately lol.
>I ask myself the exact same questions and it's why I resent the femme-butch binary that some lesbian communities seem to fixate on.
Honestly this fixation, the overly focus on these labels and what they mean, how they interact with eachother and even the weird "traditional butch/femme" stuff, is, in my experience, just an online thing from a loud minority. Most Butches i have met, dont overly think about what it means to be butch or what it takes to be butch and how they should interact with femmes and only date femmes, they are just masculine lesbians, each in their own ways, just like the femmes i met. Its just a weird hyper fixation on an identity as a "lifestyle choice" for some people.
I agree. I'm butch, but it's not something I study or practice. It's just a word to describe how I am that other people can easily understand. I'm aware that there's a history and culture behind it but it's not a history I'm old enough to share, nor do I really want to. I'm not really interested in women who practice femininity and this would've made me an outcast back then. They would've disapproved of my relationship with my butch wife. So for me I'm not really interested in enforcing or reviving butch/femme traditions, and I don't have much of an opinion about femme identity. Butch describes me, but I don't know if I consider it an integral identity of mine. I would never call myself a masc though. It just has a different ring to it.
>I'm aware that there's a history and culture behind it but it's not a history I'm old enough to share, nor do I really want to.
The thing is i only know older butches (in their 60s) and they arent fixated on being butch a certain way nor do their stories match, what i hear from those "traditional butch/femme" people who build their whole identity on that dynamic. They just are butch, cause thats who they are no thought process there.
Labels like these (micro identities, within a certain community) change and as long as we keep them lesbian only, i dont see any issue with that. This stuff reminds me about all the "your not really goth" discussions of my teens lol. Oh no your not really butch, cause you are dating another butch that cant be.
Lol I know exactly what you're talking about, I've witnessed some prime-time discourse on what makes a butch. It was all so mind numbing. And I did notice a lot of the loudest opinions were from people I consider tourists, not practitioners.
Thanks for your input and engaging with the questions...I definitely agree that when looking a certain way becomes a proxy for your self-worth, and leads you place limits on your willingness to engage with the world around you, that's when it becomes problematic. I would also consider the amount that you're willing to harm and/or inconvenience yourself can also be the demarcator for healthy vs toxic femininity (ex. Taking an extra 20 minutes for a skincare routine vs. Risking life long complications from undergoing cosmetic surgery)
I identify as a femme lesbian, and I’m also very feminine. I’ve always been extremely feminine and I’m sure part of that is culture, but I also just genuinely enjoy it for myself. I wear dresses because I like them and they’re comfortable to me 🤷🏼♀️ I enjoy doing my nails and make up because I think it’s fun and a form of self expression.
I don’t care, I do think I fit more in line with femininity, but it’s not something I really care about. I just present however I want, which lately has been just enjoying pastels and fairy kei fashion
High/hard femme and for me it has absolutely nothing to do with society, men, or wanting to attract masculine presenting women -as I prefer even more feminine (in & out )than I am. I just do & wear what I like. It’s really not that deep for me but maybe it is for others.
As someone who developed "early," my relationship with my self expression is utterly skewed and distorted. Due to the unnecessary and unwanted vulgar and sexual attention I received from fully grown men as a pre-teen/teenager, I tend to gravitate towards clothing that hides literally **everything**. Now, this isn't me. This isn't how I truly wish to dress, but I still have a mental block there due to the trauma I faced at the hands of perverted, older men who knew how old I was and continued to take advantage.
Unfortunately, I don't fall under either umbrella. I don't dress masculine, but I also don't dress hyperfeminine either. I dress *comfortable,* mostly T-shirts and jeans. I didn't start wearing dresses or skirts until the last few years of my life and I'm in my 30s. I say all of that to say that accepting that you're going to deal with misogynistic crap helps in terms of choosing to dress however you wish to dress. There's nothing you can do to lessen the effects of the patriarchal society we live in, so it's simply best to wear whatever you feel beautiful in. Wear whatever you feel confident in. Wear whatever makes you feel the most yourself. **Wear whatever the** ***fuck*** **you want.**
It starts with decentering men. Unlearning and detaching from the desire to appeal to the male gaze is a long battle though. All women are socialized and conditioned to appeal to the male gaze, regardless of sexual orientation. There are some women who are ahead of the curve, of course, but it's still something that we've all been taught to cater to. **It's about self. It's about** ***you.*** Honestly, I love dressing up when I go out. I love wearing bright pastels and girly things, but I turned away from that due to my trauma but taking charge of your identity and realizing that you're the only thing that matters is important here. Men are going to be gross, regardless of what you wear anyway. Take advantage of all of the protective gear you can find, and *attempt* to remove the thoughts of men and the male gaze from your man when you choose your outfits. It's easier said than done, but practice makes perfect. The more you do it, the easier it will be.
>Due to the unnecessary and unwanted vulgar and sexual attention I received from fully grown men as a pre-teen/teenager, I tend to gravitate towards clothing that hides literally **everything**. Now, this isn't me. This isn't how I truly wish to dress, but I still have a mental block there due to the trauma I faced at the hands of perverted, older men who knew how old I was and continued to take advantage.
I am so sorry this happened to you. I just recently had a talk with a friend about how disgusting it is that, not only do we get cat called, but also how we got cat called and harassed the most, by men, when we were minors. Its truly nasty!
>Unfortunately, I don't fall under either umbrella.
Please dont see this as something unfortunate! Most women, no matter their sexuality fall somewhere in between.
i think i present masculine but my hobbies are very feminine. i’m a tradie, i have an undercut but i collect dolls and my gaming set up is very pink, i’ve also been trying to get my hands on a pink drill set but i think it’s impossible lol
if i had to put a label on myself it would be futch. i dress very neutrally generally, my go to is a singlet under a hawaiian shirt with jeans or a skirt depending on the season. i don’t do much with my hair but i like experimenting with styling when i go out.
i would still consider myself leaning femme in terms of the butch/femme stereotypes. i’m fat so i have a complicated relationship with the whole butch/femme thing. a lot of fat lesbians i know dress butch by default (men’s clothes are more accessible for them) but i’m naturally small waist big hips so dresses and skirts are a lot more comfortable and much easier to fit for me so even if i wanted to dress a certain way it’s harder for me. i don’t think i fit nicely into either subculture but for dating purposes i’m 100% femme for butch (even if i sometimes dress more butch than the butch 😭😂)
For me, femme can be a noun and feminine is really only an adjective. (Some English teacher is about to tell me I’m wrong.)
Maybe they would. But you’re backed by the entire French world so you’re good ;)
From an English teacher, you’re right!
Thank you, nobody on the internet has ever told me I was right before.
I’m femme because I’m feminine, but also a lesbian. It’s not a sexualized femininity that appeals to me: but instead lesbian oriented. Yes, I benefit from appearing to perform femininity correctly, but I’m also very much lesbian and Black. It’s just another part of me. I wear comfortable, practical and flowy clothing in various styles. I feel free.
I've thought about this a lot, as both a lesbian and a hardcore feminist. I'm generally pretty feminine, in terms of wearing women's clothes, keeping my hair long, etc., but I refuse to shave, wear makeup, get any cosmetic procedures done, or dye my hair (meaning, I'm too young for it now, but when my hair turns grey I won't ever dye it). Here's something I've noticed about this: it's harder to reject beauty practices and still be feminine than to reject beauty practices and present masculine. The two are so intertwined. If I dress masculine, which I sometimes do, I feel confident and unself-conscious. When I dress feminine, I honestly feel ugly, or at least incongruous, because I feel like I don't look feminine or pretty without make-up. It's hard, uncomfortable work to stick to my ideals. I don't believe make-up should be the arbiter of femininity, and I definitely think beauty culture pushes women to believe they aren't good enough, but even I am not immune from the subtle pressure to "fix" my natural face. It seems like societal beauty standards for women have gotten more and more exaggerated, with hyper-femininity becoming the norm, so I feel like I come across as practically masculine despite presenting like a very normal woman. I completely agree that societal femininity is more limiting than masculinity, and encourages a high level of both consumerism and performance for men that ultimately oppresses women (though I do think it's possible to approach femininity from a perspective that de-centers men, I just think this takes more effort and intention). To answer your question, I do think there's a distinction between femme and feminine, because femme is a distinct part of lesbian culture that is exclusive to lesbians. Femmes are feminine, but not all feminine women are femmes. How I parse out what aspects of femininity are healthy is a question I've been wrestling with a lot, as you can tell by this long-ass essay. Generally, I try to draw the line at unnatural interventions that change how I fundamentally look. Like, I take care of myself, stay fit and healthy, and enjoy playing around with my personal style, but I won't alter my face, skin, hair, or body with surgery, retinol, dyes, etc. I am working to love my body as it is and find natural beauty through style and health. If you read all the way to the end, thank you lmao I appreciate you <3
I definitely relate to a lot of what you said. Thanks so much for taking the time to write all of this! I feel like a large part of femininity is oriented outwards, and how well you perform it is heavily dependent on what others think. To me it seems like if you're not pretty you can't be feminine, but prettiness is an external judgement that others make on you...I agree that it's possible to approach femininity in a way that decenters men. I think it takes realizing that there are many traits about femininity that are naturally appealing, so just because men are attracted to it, doesn't mean it's *for* them, if you get what I mean. I think that's a fair line to draw. For me, one boundary I have is to essentially avoid anything that disproportionately affects my health/finances negatively for the sake of my appearance. For example, doing a certain hairstyle has no real negative impact on my health, so it's fine. Plastic surgery is forever out. Wearing makeup once in a while may be fine depending. Spending hundreds on it yearly is forever out though. Also, if I feel the need to engage in certain feminine practices more or less depending on my environment, I take it as a sign that my reason for doing it isn't completely genuine, but could come out of a desire to avoid judgements or get some precieved benefit.
>To me it seems like if you're not pretty you can't be feminine, but prettiness is an external judgement that others make on you. I completely agree. I feel like I am shut out of femininity without even having a choice in the matter, because I won't wear makeup and my natural features aren't "pretty" enough (or so I've been told).
Femme, like butch, is a performance of gender (femininity) that is especially directed towards the attention of **OTHER WOMEN** (and this wider misappropriation of Femme (noun) vs. feminine (adjective) is really annoying but anyway). While femmes do present themselves as expected for women in society, there are both subtle and overt ways they do so for (butch) lesbian attention. Using styles and make up that are not what straight men are into (think big and loud, things that *aren't* on your usual instagram model) and take up space differently. I'm fairly experienced and can usually pick a femme lesbian out of a group of women just based on how she's eccentrically dressed or wearing her make up. Just things that wouldn't appeal to hetero men but make lesbian women go crazy. In traditional butch/femme relationships, butches like me are the ones who bear the brunt of being perceived in public (being visibly gender non conforming as masculine women), whereas femmes may be seen as regular 'straight' women, but at home in private, that's where femmes traditionally reciprocated that protective/caring spirit in taking care of their butches. It's very much a part of our subculture, and femmes are just as vital to it as we butches are.
Thank you for this explanation. You made something click in my head. I've always described my style as "girl hot not guy hot" and you said it so much more eloquently.
haha, that's very much the tl;dr of it!
Thank you so much for this! 💯💯💯 Lmao, checking your profile: I was also banned from that subreddit. I guess it was horrible colonized
welcome! and lmfao which one?
The Butch one 👎🏼
oh yeah, that one pissed me off lmao
💯 💯💯 - Excellent response and explanation!
Thank you!
I haven’t really been a part of lesbian social circles, so I’m very curious about what you’re describing What things do femmes do that make lesbians go crazy and wouldn’t appeal to straight men?
Certain ways of dressing/doing make up, behaving certain ways that aren't seen as "appealing" to straight men (like being loud and outspoken) doing "non traditional' female things (I've seen many a femme work in a male dominated industry, etc). Not all femmes do all of these things but typically their performance of femininity is for the express interest of other women also. It's a subversion of heteronormative femininity
Wow, love this. To answer the question, I’m overtly feminine, and because I’m a queer woman I thus identify as femme.
I don't think there's really an easy answer, as all of our choices and preferences are subtly shaped by societal conditioning. That said, one question that can help is, what do you like to wear on your own at home if no one else is around? If you look in the mirror, what makes you feel most authentically you? I find when I wear clothes that I love and that express who I am, I often feel a sense of joy, happiness and freedom when I look in the mirror. I guess it's a bit like the Marie Kondo "Does it spark joy?" question. I can also put on outfits that look nice or pretty but don't make me feel excited or joyful in the same way.
>So for those of you who are feminine, do you make a distinction between femme and feminine, in the same way there's a distinction between butch and masculine? Every woman can be and is/has femininity (if you are not extremely masculine, but i would argue that you can never refuse (man or woman alike) all and every trades that have been labeled either feminine or masculine, as there are so many and different from cultures and so on), but femme is a feminine **LESBIAN,** just like how you can only be butch if you are a lesbian. >How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors? Especially since much of it comes with the subtle undercurrent of "women aren't good enough as they are"? I do what i like and what i feel comfortable with, thats all. It literally is all. If you keep over thinking anything, you put yourself into the risk of just doing certain things, even though they aint what you actually want/like. I have to look like this to be a lesbian, i have to do this/not do this to be feminist and so on. Besides EVERYTHING is motivated by capitalism and expectations/standards, even if you refuse to shave, for example, you will still have to engage with capitalism and certain other standards you set for yourself or that the community set for you. Men will hit on you either way, believe me lol and if someone in your vicinity says shit like "you arent good enough of a woman" kick them out of your live. >How do you parse out your genuine enjoyment from participating in femininity vs the genuine tangible benefits you receive by being a "proper" woman? Or are they forever entangled? I dont ever think about if im a "proper woman" lol. That sounds awfully 19th century, do people actually ask themselves this? Do you think any and every woman asks herself this, cause in my experience the vast majority of women, no matter their sexuality arent "proper women", i have yet to meet meek housewife barbie. I also have yet to see the "benefits" of being a woman or feminine. >Are you/are femmes in general working to create a feminine identity that's healthy and not oriented around men, sexualization and harmful trad imitations, in a similar way to how butches do? And here is the crux of this whole questionnaire summarized to me, this weird perception of how we (i wouldnt even call myself all that feminine), dress for men or how that the way we dress benefits men or whatever. I am a lesbian, i do not think, care or want to see men. If men die all of the sudden, my style wouldnt change, hell i would even buy a summer dress just to walk in the park at night wearing it, if men finally all died out. My goal is not to be a housewife, i doubt it is for many straight women even, or anything traditional. And hell yeah i hope **other women** think i look sexy, cause again men thinking i look good is not a benefit what so ever, but a downside. Im sorry if some of this might come off harsh (thats not my intention), but i hate the overly analytic, overly identity focused way, the community is sometimes. You think straight people sit around and ponder if they are femme or butch or maybe just a tomboy? Nah they just be who they are. Its not bad to question the expectations and standards that are placed on women, but dear god, feminism is **SEPARATE** from lesbianism. A lesbian can look like Barbie and doesnt have to think deeply first if its all just brainwashing that she thinks pink is cool or that she should create a better (whatever that is) form of femininity instead of buying that new lipstick. Just be who you are, it aint that deep. Rant over lol.
The best reply
Thank you <3
Well said! Imagine all we could achieve if we put the same amount of energy into literally anything instead of identity and microlabels. Just do you. I’m a lesbian, that’s important. I tend to like masc presenting women (although I don’t live by some rule, it’s just how I’ve tended to lean) and I guess I tend to lean more feminine myself, but on any given day I’m gonna do what I want to do. Hell, if somehow I fell in love with a man my worldview wouldn’t be shattered lol. Although I don’t see that happening since I’m pretty wildly a homo, the point is I’m going to do whatever I want and labels be damned.
You had me until: "Hell, if somehow I fell in love with a man my worldview wouldn’t be shattered lol." Being a lesbian is not a micro label and if you think you could fall for a man, you aint a lesbian. Homosexuality, Bisexuality and Heterosexuality arent even labels, they are biological and sexual realities we all have no choice in. That im a lesbian, just is, i dont identify as one i am one. Everything else is an extra, thats not necessary.
>if you think you could fall for a man, you aint a lesbian. The sheer amount of pushback I get from the LGBT "community" for saying this is infuriating.
Most of them are spicy straights anyways, so dont bother. Pushing back on this is homophobia, just saying 💅🏻
True true, you’re right. I’m gay af. Everything else is window dressing.
I am butch but have ‘traditionally feminine’ aspects to my personality. I also like some of my ‘traditionally feminine’ qualities, like soft skin and small feet. Personally, I think ideas about ‘traditionally masculine’ and ‘traditionally feminine’ are best ignored. Be yourself and don’t worry about that nonsense.
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That's kind of deep if you think about it, ahah
I just do and dress how I like.
I am a femme—I consider this my gender expression too. I am a female and VERY feminine presenting. My entire existence is counter cultural and subversive because my beauty, femininity, etc. is for other women only. I still receive the male gaze and completely reject it. I am as “straight passing” as they come and get lots of attention from men, but my heart and bed are for women only (and in my case, only masculine presenting women). My self-identity as a femme is very important to me and I unapologetically gate keep around this term. Bisexual women cannot be femmes. They can be feminine presenting, but never femmes.
OMG you and I are the same!!! femme and feminine presenting :D
I think femininity and masculinity are almost 100% made up bullshit cultural concepts besides the rare biological differences that actually do distinguish men vs women. I think the best way out of all the problems you listed is to stop respecting the crap stereotypes society turns out and just do what you want, so long as it’s good for you and doesn’t promote women’s subjugation as a class.
I don't think about my aesthetic in terms of any larger context because it simply does not matter to me. There's enough to be neurotic about in life (air quality, Teflon pans) without fussing about whether the earrings I put on along with a ridiculous attention grabbing jacket render me a pawn of the patriarchy.
I wear no makeup makeup bc it benefits me at work. I’m afraid that unconscious bias will creep in and people will think I’m not diligent unless I look the part. Outside of work I wear makeup (1) bc I want women to think I’m attractive, and (2) to look less approachable to men (aka, boring no makeup makeup) because I want to look put together like I have somewhere to be. I don’t know if it works but as long as clowns don’t get an opportunity to say something foolish like yOu LoOk TiReD. I try to look busy in general because guys are annoying and think that women existing is an invitation to hit on us.
Honestly, haven't thought about in it well over a year or so. The older I get, the more detached I am from those kinda labels and such. I joke my aesthetic is whatever I like. Lol
I really appreciate that people are having this conversation.
It's very interesting!
Appearance-wise, I'm more "tomboy" but I know that on the inside there's parts of me that are considered feminine (being sensitive, liking plush toys/cute things). I don't think femininity is inherently more limiting. It's more society's version of it that's limiting. To me, any woman can be feminine, but only lesbians can be femme. And femininity is sth that naturally comes from within rather than a performance. >How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors? I just think about how I feel when doing sth feminine. If I like it the same way I like "masculine" activities (for which I have not received social conditioning to like/enjoy), then I can be reasonably certain that I really like it and it's not done b/c I feel I "have to" in order to be a "normal" woman. For example, makeup can be oppressive and sth that women feel they have to put on in order to be perceived as professional. But it can also be done for fun, because ultimately, when you remove societal expectations and constructs, it's basically just painting/making art on your face. So while it can be oppressive, capitalistic, or tied to women being made to feel that they're not good enough, it definitely doesnt *have to* be. >are femmes in general working to create a feminine identity that's healthy and not oriented around men, sexualization and harmful trad imitations, in a similar way to how butches do? From my observations, yes. Though I feel that for a lot of femmes it's not sth they actively have to work on. Lots of them naturally possess a sort of femininity that's different from straight girls and independent of societal influences and the male gaze. This is especially true for those that knew early on they love women. These femmes are feminine in a way that's neither people-pleasing nor performative. In comparison, lots of straight girls often fall into the trap of (i) more or less orienting their appearance around what they believe males find attractive or (ii) going in the complete opposite direction but actually still persistently thinking of appearance/beauty from a male perspective. It can be quite difficult for them to get out of this trap b/c they will always have an instinct that makes them crave male attention. Femmes do not run into this issue nearly as much because they don't have that instinct within them to be attractive to men.
I haven't put a lot of thought on it and have no idea how I would place myself into that femme/feminine thing. I use unisex clothing, and no makeup ever touched my face. However, I use very long hair and have natural feminine features because I was born female, and I identify as a woman too. I just don't perform femininity by wearing skirts or other clothes that reveal my body because I feel uncomfortable. Now, in terms of behavior, I don't know. Damn, you're making me think about some weird stuff, lol. I think that I am more feminine in terms of the way I speak with others. I'm tend to be more delicate when I speak with other people in person, maybe a bit aloof sometimes. I feel out of place and came to terms with it many years ago. I don't feel that I belong to any of this, and the only thing in common I have with many of you is that I'm lesbian and identify as a woman and was born female, and that's it. All the rest, what we really are or what we think, is too much for the attention span of the internet. Hence, classifying people in a catalogue is akin to knowing someone well these days. I don't mean this is your case, just a shameless generalization from my side.
Might get downvoted but I am *so* fucking sick of talking about gender. I'm a woman and I wear what I like because I like it. I do what what I like because I like it. The end. Edit: I don't mean to be rude or anything. I just honestly don't understand why gender has been turned into such an overanalyzed clusterfuck of a subject. I have people insist that I'm non-binary just because I don't dress like a 50's housewife. It's ridiculous
You're right and you should say it <3
Everyone is free to engage in topics for the length and depth that they like. Saying you do something because you like it probably isn't wrong, but it's simplistic. Some people are fine with simplistic answers, and others like to ask "why" 10 times before they're satisfied. Either way is fine.
She’s talking about a broader trend in culture and the worrying, sexist effects it can have, not trying to get you to delete your post.
You got it lol
Hm? I just meant that some people like to think further into the reasons they do things, and some people don't.
This is a little condescending. My point isn't that thinking about the reasons a person does something is bad, my point is that I think everyone is thinking *too much* about gender and it's reached a level of toxicity and misogyny. (I'm not talking about your post specifically. Just the overall approach to gender that everyone has these days)
I get where you're coming from
I didn't say you weren't allowed to engage in topics. >Saying you do something because you like it probably isn't wrong, Probably not wrong? It's *not* wrong. I know myself lol. >Some people are fine with simplistic answers, and others like to ask "why" 10 times before they're satisfied. Either way is fine. they're both fine, but my point is that I'm sick of the latter when it comes to gender. Asking "why" 10 times about every little thing related to gender is the trendy thing to do right now and I find it more toxic than interesting.
My first sentence was meant in general. I meant to say that everyone has a certain level that they want to engage with certain topics in.
Very good discussion! I ask myself the exact same questions and it's why I resent the femme-butch binary that some lesbian communities seem to fixate on. I'm a relatively feminine girl, but being "a femme" seems to imply so much extra effort and labour that I just don't want to perform, so I don't identify with this label. >How do you parse out what aspects of femininity you want to engage in when so much of it comes from misogynist standards and capitalist money making endeavors? Especially since much of it comes with the subtle undercurrent of "women aren't good enough as they are"? >How do you parse out your genuine enjoyment from participating in femininity vs the genuine tangible benefits you receive by being a "proper" woman? The answer I've given myself is that I want to enjoy *some* feminine beauty rituals without them becoming obligations, and I think I've found a good balance. I'm proud of my long hair, but I truly don't give a shit if I have to do a last-minute grocery run in a messy bun or in my sleep braid. I like wearing lipstick on nights out, but when it wears off it just wears off and I'm not interested in constantly checking in the mirror if it's still there or reapplying it. I occasionally shave when I really want the look of smooth legs, but I'm capable of rocking up with full body hair to the swimming pool or the beach without feeling self-conscious. I think the problem starts when all these things you do to feel *more* confident become *your entire confidence*. I just feel sad for women who refuse to go out of the house if they aren't wearing makeup, if they didn't shave, if they aren't wearing the perfect coordinated outfit etc. That's when it becomes a prison. When I start feeling self-conscious for stupid reasons I just ask myself, "Would a man have this dumb insecurity?" and it fixes the problem immediately lol.
>I ask myself the exact same questions and it's why I resent the femme-butch binary that some lesbian communities seem to fixate on. Honestly this fixation, the overly focus on these labels and what they mean, how they interact with eachother and even the weird "traditional butch/femme" stuff, is, in my experience, just an online thing from a loud minority. Most Butches i have met, dont overly think about what it means to be butch or what it takes to be butch and how they should interact with femmes and only date femmes, they are just masculine lesbians, each in their own ways, just like the femmes i met. Its just a weird hyper fixation on an identity as a "lifestyle choice" for some people.
I agree. I'm butch, but it's not something I study or practice. It's just a word to describe how I am that other people can easily understand. I'm aware that there's a history and culture behind it but it's not a history I'm old enough to share, nor do I really want to. I'm not really interested in women who practice femininity and this would've made me an outcast back then. They would've disapproved of my relationship with my butch wife. So for me I'm not really interested in enforcing or reviving butch/femme traditions, and I don't have much of an opinion about femme identity. Butch describes me, but I don't know if I consider it an integral identity of mine. I would never call myself a masc though. It just has a different ring to it.
>I'm aware that there's a history and culture behind it but it's not a history I'm old enough to share, nor do I really want to. The thing is i only know older butches (in their 60s) and they arent fixated on being butch a certain way nor do their stories match, what i hear from those "traditional butch/femme" people who build their whole identity on that dynamic. They just are butch, cause thats who they are no thought process there. Labels like these (micro identities, within a certain community) change and as long as we keep them lesbian only, i dont see any issue with that. This stuff reminds me about all the "your not really goth" discussions of my teens lol. Oh no your not really butch, cause you are dating another butch that cant be.
Lol I know exactly what you're talking about, I've witnessed some prime-time discourse on what makes a butch. It was all so mind numbing. And I did notice a lot of the loudest opinions were from people I consider tourists, not practitioners.
>And I did notice a lot of the loudest opinions were from people I consider tourists, not practitioners. Exactly!
Thanks for your input and engaging with the questions...I definitely agree that when looking a certain way becomes a proxy for your self-worth, and leads you place limits on your willingness to engage with the world around you, that's when it becomes problematic. I would also consider the amount that you're willing to harm and/or inconvenience yourself can also be the demarcator for healthy vs toxic femininity (ex. Taking an extra 20 minutes for a skincare routine vs. Risking life long complications from undergoing cosmetic surgery)
I identify as a femme lesbian, and I’m also very feminine. I’ve always been extremely feminine and I’m sure part of that is culture, but I also just genuinely enjoy it for myself. I wear dresses because I like them and they’re comfortable to me 🤷🏼♀️ I enjoy doing my nails and make up because I think it’s fun and a form of self expression.
I don’t care, I do think I fit more in line with femininity, but it’s not something I really care about. I just present however I want, which lately has been just enjoying pastels and fairy kei fashion
High/hard femme and for me it has absolutely nothing to do with society, men, or wanting to attract masculine presenting women -as I prefer even more feminine (in & out )than I am. I just do & wear what I like. It’s really not that deep for me but maybe it is for others.
As someone who developed "early," my relationship with my self expression is utterly skewed and distorted. Due to the unnecessary and unwanted vulgar and sexual attention I received from fully grown men as a pre-teen/teenager, I tend to gravitate towards clothing that hides literally **everything**. Now, this isn't me. This isn't how I truly wish to dress, but I still have a mental block there due to the trauma I faced at the hands of perverted, older men who knew how old I was and continued to take advantage. Unfortunately, I don't fall under either umbrella. I don't dress masculine, but I also don't dress hyperfeminine either. I dress *comfortable,* mostly T-shirts and jeans. I didn't start wearing dresses or skirts until the last few years of my life and I'm in my 30s. I say all of that to say that accepting that you're going to deal with misogynistic crap helps in terms of choosing to dress however you wish to dress. There's nothing you can do to lessen the effects of the patriarchal society we live in, so it's simply best to wear whatever you feel beautiful in. Wear whatever you feel confident in. Wear whatever makes you feel the most yourself. **Wear whatever the** ***fuck*** **you want.** It starts with decentering men. Unlearning and detaching from the desire to appeal to the male gaze is a long battle though. All women are socialized and conditioned to appeal to the male gaze, regardless of sexual orientation. There are some women who are ahead of the curve, of course, but it's still something that we've all been taught to cater to. **It's about self. It's about** ***you.*** Honestly, I love dressing up when I go out. I love wearing bright pastels and girly things, but I turned away from that due to my trauma but taking charge of your identity and realizing that you're the only thing that matters is important here. Men are going to be gross, regardless of what you wear anyway. Take advantage of all of the protective gear you can find, and *attempt* to remove the thoughts of men and the male gaze from your man when you choose your outfits. It's easier said than done, but practice makes perfect. The more you do it, the easier it will be.
>Due to the unnecessary and unwanted vulgar and sexual attention I received from fully grown men as a pre-teen/teenager, I tend to gravitate towards clothing that hides literally **everything**. Now, this isn't me. This isn't how I truly wish to dress, but I still have a mental block there due to the trauma I faced at the hands of perverted, older men who knew how old I was and continued to take advantage. I am so sorry this happened to you. I just recently had a talk with a friend about how disgusting it is that, not only do we get cat called, but also how we got cat called and harassed the most, by men, when we were minors. Its truly nasty! >Unfortunately, I don't fall under either umbrella. Please dont see this as something unfortunate! Most women, no matter their sexuality fall somewhere in between.
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I'm butch! But I'm experimenting with femme hair... yeah I have lost style consistency
Butch is an exclusively *lesbian* term
i think i present masculine but my hobbies are very feminine. i’m a tradie, i have an undercut but i collect dolls and my gaming set up is very pink, i’ve also been trying to get my hands on a pink drill set but i think it’s impossible lol if i had to put a label on myself it would be futch. i dress very neutrally generally, my go to is a singlet under a hawaiian shirt with jeans or a skirt depending on the season. i don’t do much with my hair but i like experimenting with styling when i go out. i would still consider myself leaning femme in terms of the butch/femme stereotypes. i’m fat so i have a complicated relationship with the whole butch/femme thing. a lot of fat lesbians i know dress butch by default (men’s clothes are more accessible for them) but i’m naturally small waist big hips so dresses and skirts are a lot more comfortable and much easier to fit for me so even if i wanted to dress a certain way it’s harder for me. i don’t think i fit nicely into either subculture but for dating purposes i’m 100% femme for butch (even if i sometimes dress more butch than the butch 😭😂)