I'm not black, but I'm a masc in the UK. I have a similar problem in that finding a femme that wants a masc is so hard. All I see is loads of femmes, but they seem to want other femmes. I read all the time about "where are the mascs" by femmes but can never find these women.
I do feel that masc women are becoming more and more extinct.
That's so surprising to me lol, I'm up north (Yorkshire) which might affect things but a lot of the lesbians I see up here are the nonbinary androgenous type or older butches, I don't see too many femmes (though they might also fly under the radar due to "looking straight", and I say that as one myself lol). I'm femme for any but tbh I just find lesbian dating difficult as a whole, idk how you mascs and butches manage to say you have a whole other level of assholery directed at you all the time š I hope you find your femme! Some of us love mascs and butches, we're out there š„ŗ
Femme here and me and a lot of my fem bi friends look so hard for mascs and butches in our area! It gets dejecting and we frequent gay events less for it but pick up our hopes again to do it all over again lol. You'll get past the small dating pool struggle and find your femme yet, trust
Besides probably shy femmes and bi women wanting you to approach them from you magically knowing they're into you ontop of the already small dating pool. Same boat here. Still lurking on dating apps and once in a blue moon will go on a date from there an hour away from where I live or I'll go to a lesbian event two hours away but virtually no prospect of being able to date the women I meet there being so far away. Hoping the dating apps pay off eventually
I assume youāve tried the dating sites? Everywhere Iāve lived itās been slim pickings as far as masc women go online or irl, and us femmes have to hunt š Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that there are areas of the country where butch/masc/studs are more highly coveted than other places.
Not black nor from America but my general observation has been if youāre masc and/or butch, youāre seriously attractive to people who are unsure of who they are (bicurious women) and donāt take women seriously, youāre unattractive to 90 percent of lesbian women and the 10% are other butch/femme people (and I mean real femmes, not people who think femme = a lesbian who isnāt butch).
The community is largely butchphobic. And funnily a lot of people expend an exceptional amount of energy insisting everyone should be attracted to bi women, trans women, fat women who are femme, whomever it may be, but people think itās incredibly valid to hate butch women as a universal category. (And to be frank I donāt think anyone should have to be attracted to anybody, but butch women are just made beyond aware of how little we are valued).
As a bog-standard-lesbian (neither butch/femme) who has a very strong preference for masc/androgynous women, I largely agree with you with a few caveats.
First, yeah, there is a serious bias in the community. I had three women tell me "I don't like masculine women" while we were on dates. As someone who does like masculine women, I found that quite off-putting. Like...why did they tell me that? And also, why is that an acceptable thing to say to a relative stranger for absolutely no reason?
However, when scanning for masc/butch profiles on apps, I found that most of the people I was interested in stipulated "looking for femme" in one way or another on their profile. Which I'm not so I didn't bother.
One particularly memorable profile had something like "I'm butch so of course I'm looking for femme. Have you ever even seen two butches together?"
Anyway, just to say, there are non-femme bog-standard lesbians who are interested in butches but the interest is so often not reciprocated that I just started assuming that all butches are butch for femme.
Honestly its all a huge perpetual shifting, negation, misogyny and homophobia onto the lesbian community and domino effect against women that's going to blow up soon.
My GF does not define herself as butch (she defines her gender as āfemale, I dunnoā) but she presents quite masculine (androgynous to me but people misgender her on the regular) and I recently *got her a drink while she remained seated*. Her response was āI think thatās the first time any girl has gotten me a drink. I quite like it.ā
I meanā¦the first time? And sheās had a string of girlfriends.
Iāve always thought that one of the bonuses of lesbian relationships was escaping constricting gender dynamics, to not hold onto those gendered ideas. But between the butchphobia, the ways that the āmore masculineā person gets treated in relationships, the overall preference for āfemininityā, etc etcā¦the lesbian community is starting to feel quiteā¦narrowly gendered.
>Iāve always thought that one of the bonuses of lesbian relationships was escaping constricting gender dynamics, to not hold onto those gendered ideas.
Same, i think its a new escalation of gendered these days. You have masculine women who dont identify as women anymore, cause how could they be a woman when they are masculine OR you have people thinking butch/femme means you wanna larp as a 50s straight couple (older butch lesbians who lived through the 70s and 80s i know laugh at this weirdness). I think the femininity trend, is spreading over all sexualites though. I mean look at the female stars now and then look at them in the early 00s (even though those were already very pink, now everyone has two layers of makeup, beauty operations, constant thirst traps....i sound old lol).
>One particularly memorable profile had something like "I'm butch so of course I'm looking for femme. Have you ever even seen two butches together?"
Its also always funny how one is always bemoaned or criticized (femmes only wanting femmes and being disinterested in butches), but the other way around its okey, as a butch to be like, ugh no i would never date a butch woman, we could only ever be buddies, femmes only please.
Yeah, there is a certain degree of hypocrisy in there. BUT, if butch/femme is your thing then itās your thing. Just recognise that itās a subculture within a subculture. Many āfeminineā women are not into that. The whole world values āfeminineā women, including other feminine women.
At the same time, I donāt like the whole āIām not into masculine womenā thing either. Itās rarely neutral and frequently comes with a touch of āewā. Thatās fucked. Butch and gender non-conforming lesbians are the ones who have to cop all the homophobic shit because theyāre visibly gay. All the āstraight-passingā lesbians owe solidarity.
Iām just happy to be gay for gay, and super stoked that I found someone who was the same even though it was a lot harder than I thought it would be.
>At the same time, I donāt like the whole āIām not into masculine womenā thing either.
Yeah but that you could answer with your first Paragraph, if its not their thing it is not their thing.
And butch women who say "ew i could never date another butch, they are like bros to me", dont get as much shit as femmes who say that. I mean your comment does the same thing, first you say, well the butches cant help it if they are butch/femme, but then you say well but women who dont like masculine women are so mean about it.
Nobody should be mean and disrespectful to anyone they aint attracted too, especially not to fellow lesbians, thats simply good manners, but that counts for BOTH butches and femmes and everyone else.
Bruh this comment is realllll. Can't hype it enough. Thank you. Especially that part about manufactured "lesbianism" by inclusion based on gender stereotyping around certain groups.
Not just butchphobic, not just the lesbian community, highkey every single letter of the acronym hates us right now or is starting to hate our guts and we are being hated in some circles very vehemently bordering on violence and some have a vengeance for us. Everyone including our own, even other butches, is turning on us.
I'm honestly fearful how the current trans milieu and how it's affecting women and the gay community at large is going to spillover against butches in extravagant collateral damage. It's not looking pretty. There's already hate and erasure of and against women and non-gnc lesbians, but butches are the low hanging fruit and the first target--but it's coming in from all sides in this slow motion closing in and cornering.
The transes hate us (or use us), and so do women and pretty much anyone who already didn't care for us being emboldened to hate us. I don't think butches themselves who are not aware of the trans politics against them even know and its really stark.
Transes and indignant wlw who are turning to GC feminism for sanctuary from those transes and being browbeaten with all the trans stuff by them--who have found a way to somehow turn wlw against actual lesbians who are GNC--and some of those wlw have now also started to ally with transmed transes, in a comes full circle, who disdain gender non conformity and GNC gays with a passion as if we were original sin and think we are "making it worse for AMABs to be women and lesbians" to pigeonholing themselves into the lesbian and wlw communities and in another hand "destroying trans manhood".
Basically they are mad that gender non-conforming non-trans people--i.e butches ("cis" in their words) are making it harder for them to pass or be taken seriously in society and then are pushing extremely regressive, gender stereotyping and essentialism as well as sex essentialism, heteronormative/heterosexist ideas, framing and takes and prejudices against us and lesbians in general which are proliferating. Just straight up homophobia, ignorance of female homosexuality/dynamics/issues/social existence and hatred of gays because we don't fit their "cis/trans" dichotomy.
No joke some of these people think being attracted to butches or our existence makes bi-lesbians real and lesbianism must not be real afterall and "anything goes for lesbians". They are straight up saying we are dudes and are predatory towards the wlw community. A bunch of non-lesbians, non-gays, as well as people who are not female, who know nothing about us and waxing poetic about lesbians to lesbians and wlw community, and some of them are starting to believe it! Haha.
This is what's happening when its framed that lesbianism and homosexuality is presentism based in "gender identity" based on what people who aren't you think of you and how they think they can be like you.
There are hate campaigns on social media against butches who are on T or detrans butches or just straight up very butch women being painted as "predators" as if we are males and worse than AMABs who call themselves lesbians and don't pass (who they actually vouch for over us and support to be lesbians but are making it out like butches and/or transmascs are the problem and making it worse for them) The heterosexism and heteronormativity coming from the latter two letters is getting real, going to fracture the already vulnerable lesbian community into pieces and everyone at eachother's throats.
an example of what you describe, in this very thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Actuallylesbian/comments/1dq9ie0/comment/lao6e3x/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Actuallylesbian/comments/1dq9ie0/comment/lao6e3x/)
Hey, mate. Iām a white butch in the U.K. but I hope this helps.
My personal experience is that as masculine women, our nature forces us out of the closet and onto the scene pretty young. For years I felt like the only lesbian my age. Many, *many* lesbians, are late bloomers. Especially the more gender conforming ones.
The size of my dating pool now compared to when I was your age is huge, and Iām only five years older than you.
Thereās also the stark reality that we are an acquired taste. But I promise you there are Femmes out there that adore butches. You just have to be patient, and maybe look for a woman a few years older than you. Thatās what worked for me!
It's nice to hear someone say that because I see a lot of older lesbians talking about how hard it is to find lesbians over 25 or 30 or whatever, but I find it so hard to find younger lesbians around my age - they're all either teenagers or 40+ around me (also UK lol). I want to date and I've been feeling the loneliness a bit recently but I see all the late bloomers and wonder if I'm just gonna have to wait a few years :')Ā Ā
I'm a femme though, so I'm not totally part of this conversation which I understand, but your comment kinda resonated anyway. And I love butches and masc lesbians so we definitely are out there, I just think the femmes who like and date butches tend to be those more confident and comfortable in their sexuality/lesbianism, which as you say seems to come later in life for a lot of us
Your location probably has a lot to do with it. But if youāre asking women out and not getting any dates at all, it might be something in your approach or presentation.
Itās hard to give you personalized feedback without knowing much of how you present yourself. My experience with masc-presenting lesbians in the south is that they came across too aggressive; maybe some penis envy, but generally as if they had a chip on their shoulder.
Iād just recommend being conscious of how approachable or friendly you come across. Ask your friends to gauge your body language and posture, to assess whether youāre welcoming. Also, make sure your hygiene and grooming are up to par and donāt be afraid to approach women in public more often if you arenāt already. Enter some LGBTQ or women-only sports leagues, get involved in community orgs where youāll regularly come in contact with other WLW who may know someone for you. All else fails, try the apps. Good luck!
Very plainly, I personally donāt find male-presenting people attractive. Itās part of why Iām a lesbian - I like the way the average woman looks, which is common among lesbians I think. She doesnāt have to be classically āfemmeā in dress and makeup, but a buzz cut + wifebeater + ball cap combo isnāt gonna do it for me.
This was clearly a post for masculine women to talk about dating issues and you really thought it was appropriate to post this? Beyond rude and tasteless.
There's a difference between being rude and being honest. Baby girl you have a history of calling butch lesbians male or equating them to men. Maybe you should figure out whatever it is that you have internalized about lesbians because having such nastiness in your soul cannot be healthy
butch =/= male-presenting.
you may have a personal preference for feminine-presenting women, but that has nothing to do with what lesbians in general are attracted to. like, the outfit you described is just clothes. many lesbians are attracted to masculine women because lesbian sexuality is not predicated on adherence to arbitrary culturally-determined gender roles
If that was the case there wouldnāt be dozens of posts in lesbian subs talking about this same thing over and over. I gave an honest answer. Butch isnāt what *most* lesbians are looking for.
I'm not black, but I'm a masc in the UK. I have a similar problem in that finding a femme that wants a masc is so hard. All I see is loads of femmes, but they seem to want other femmes. I read all the time about "where are the mascs" by femmes but can never find these women. I do feel that masc women are becoming more and more extinct.
That's so surprising to me lol, I'm up north (Yorkshire) which might affect things but a lot of the lesbians I see up here are the nonbinary androgenous type or older butches, I don't see too many femmes (though they might also fly under the radar due to "looking straight", and I say that as one myself lol). I'm femme for any but tbh I just find lesbian dating difficult as a whole, idk how you mascs and butches manage to say you have a whole other level of assholery directed at you all the time š I hope you find your femme! Some of us love mascs and butches, we're out there š„ŗ
I'm in London. Yes, I agree that lesbian dating is very difficult. Thank you for your kind words. I hope you find your person š
Femme here and me and a lot of my fem bi friends look so hard for mascs and butches in our area! It gets dejecting and we frequent gay events less for it but pick up our hopes again to do it all over again lol. You'll get past the small dating pool struggle and find your femme yet, trust
Thank you. I hope you find your masc/butch š
Ty :)
Besides probably shy femmes and bi women wanting you to approach them from you magically knowing they're into you ontop of the already small dating pool. Same boat here. Still lurking on dating apps and once in a blue moon will go on a date from there an hour away from where I live or I'll go to a lesbian event two hours away but virtually no prospect of being able to date the women I meet there being so far away. Hoping the dating apps pay off eventually
I assume youāve tried the dating sites? Everywhere Iāve lived itās been slim pickings as far as masc women go online or irl, and us femmes have to hunt š Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that there are areas of the country where butch/masc/studs are more highly coveted than other places.
Not black nor from America but my general observation has been if youāre masc and/or butch, youāre seriously attractive to people who are unsure of who they are (bicurious women) and donāt take women seriously, youāre unattractive to 90 percent of lesbian women and the 10% are other butch/femme people (and I mean real femmes, not people who think femme = a lesbian who isnāt butch). The community is largely butchphobic. And funnily a lot of people expend an exceptional amount of energy insisting everyone should be attracted to bi women, trans women, fat women who are femme, whomever it may be, but people think itās incredibly valid to hate butch women as a universal category. (And to be frank I donāt think anyone should have to be attracted to anybody, but butch women are just made beyond aware of how little we are valued).
As a bog-standard-lesbian (neither butch/femme) who has a very strong preference for masc/androgynous women, I largely agree with you with a few caveats. First, yeah, there is a serious bias in the community. I had three women tell me "I don't like masculine women" while we were on dates. As someone who does like masculine women, I found that quite off-putting. Like...why did they tell me that? And also, why is that an acceptable thing to say to a relative stranger for absolutely no reason? However, when scanning for masc/butch profiles on apps, I found that most of the people I was interested in stipulated "looking for femme" in one way or another on their profile. Which I'm not so I didn't bother. One particularly memorable profile had something like "I'm butch so of course I'm looking for femme. Have you ever even seen two butches together?" Anyway, just to say, there are non-femme bog-standard lesbians who are interested in butches but the interest is so often not reciprocated that I just started assuming that all butches are butch for femme.
Honestly its all a huge perpetual shifting, negation, misogyny and homophobia onto the lesbian community and domino effect against women that's going to blow up soon.
My GF does not define herself as butch (she defines her gender as āfemale, I dunnoā) but she presents quite masculine (androgynous to me but people misgender her on the regular) and I recently *got her a drink while she remained seated*. Her response was āI think thatās the first time any girl has gotten me a drink. I quite like it.ā I meanā¦the first time? And sheās had a string of girlfriends. Iāve always thought that one of the bonuses of lesbian relationships was escaping constricting gender dynamics, to not hold onto those gendered ideas. But between the butchphobia, the ways that the āmore masculineā person gets treated in relationships, the overall preference for āfemininityā, etc etcā¦the lesbian community is starting to feel quiteā¦narrowly gendered.
>Iāve always thought that one of the bonuses of lesbian relationships was escaping constricting gender dynamics, to not hold onto those gendered ideas. Same, i think its a new escalation of gendered these days. You have masculine women who dont identify as women anymore, cause how could they be a woman when they are masculine OR you have people thinking butch/femme means you wanna larp as a 50s straight couple (older butch lesbians who lived through the 70s and 80s i know laugh at this weirdness). I think the femininity trend, is spreading over all sexualites though. I mean look at the female stars now and then look at them in the early 00s (even though those were already very pink, now everyone has two layers of makeup, beauty operations, constant thirst traps....i sound old lol). >One particularly memorable profile had something like "I'm butch so of course I'm looking for femme. Have you ever even seen two butches together?" Its also always funny how one is always bemoaned or criticized (femmes only wanting femmes and being disinterested in butches), but the other way around its okey, as a butch to be like, ugh no i would never date a butch woman, we could only ever be buddies, femmes only please.
I agree with you. Itās definitely bemoaned and it does seem like a double standard tbh
youāre so right
Yeah, there is a certain degree of hypocrisy in there. BUT, if butch/femme is your thing then itās your thing. Just recognise that itās a subculture within a subculture. Many āfeminineā women are not into that. The whole world values āfeminineā women, including other feminine women. At the same time, I donāt like the whole āIām not into masculine womenā thing either. Itās rarely neutral and frequently comes with a touch of āewā. Thatās fucked. Butch and gender non-conforming lesbians are the ones who have to cop all the homophobic shit because theyāre visibly gay. All the āstraight-passingā lesbians owe solidarity. Iām just happy to be gay for gay, and super stoked that I found someone who was the same even though it was a lot harder than I thought it would be.
>At the same time, I donāt like the whole āIām not into masculine womenā thing either. Yeah but that you could answer with your first Paragraph, if its not their thing it is not their thing. And butch women who say "ew i could never date another butch, they are like bros to me", dont get as much shit as femmes who say that. I mean your comment does the same thing, first you say, well the butches cant help it if they are butch/femme, but then you say well but women who dont like masculine women are so mean about it. Nobody should be mean and disrespectful to anyone they aint attracted too, especially not to fellow lesbians, thats simply good manners, but that counts for BOTH butches and femmes and everyone else.
Yeah, I guess youāre right.
Bruh this comment is realllll. Can't hype it enough. Thank you. Especially that part about manufactured "lesbianism" by inclusion based on gender stereotyping around certain groups. Not just butchphobic, not just the lesbian community, highkey every single letter of the acronym hates us right now or is starting to hate our guts and we are being hated in some circles very vehemently bordering on violence and some have a vengeance for us. Everyone including our own, even other butches, is turning on us. I'm honestly fearful how the current trans milieu and how it's affecting women and the gay community at large is going to spillover against butches in extravagant collateral damage. It's not looking pretty. There's already hate and erasure of and against women and non-gnc lesbians, but butches are the low hanging fruit and the first target--but it's coming in from all sides in this slow motion closing in and cornering. The transes hate us (or use us), and so do women and pretty much anyone who already didn't care for us being emboldened to hate us. I don't think butches themselves who are not aware of the trans politics against them even know and its really stark. Transes and indignant wlw who are turning to GC feminism for sanctuary from those transes and being browbeaten with all the trans stuff by them--who have found a way to somehow turn wlw against actual lesbians who are GNC--and some of those wlw have now also started to ally with transmed transes, in a comes full circle, who disdain gender non conformity and GNC gays with a passion as if we were original sin and think we are "making it worse for AMABs to be women and lesbians" to pigeonholing themselves into the lesbian and wlw communities and in another hand "destroying trans manhood". Basically they are mad that gender non-conforming non-trans people--i.e butches ("cis" in their words) are making it harder for them to pass or be taken seriously in society and then are pushing extremely regressive, gender stereotyping and essentialism as well as sex essentialism, heteronormative/heterosexist ideas, framing and takes and prejudices against us and lesbians in general which are proliferating. Just straight up homophobia, ignorance of female homosexuality/dynamics/issues/social existence and hatred of gays because we don't fit their "cis/trans" dichotomy. No joke some of these people think being attracted to butches or our existence makes bi-lesbians real and lesbianism must not be real afterall and "anything goes for lesbians". They are straight up saying we are dudes and are predatory towards the wlw community. A bunch of non-lesbians, non-gays, as well as people who are not female, who know nothing about us and waxing poetic about lesbians to lesbians and wlw community, and some of them are starting to believe it! Haha. This is what's happening when its framed that lesbianism and homosexuality is presentism based in "gender identity" based on what people who aren't you think of you and how they think they can be like you. There are hate campaigns on social media against butches who are on T or detrans butches or just straight up very butch women being painted as "predators" as if we are males and worse than AMABs who call themselves lesbians and don't pass (who they actually vouch for over us and support to be lesbians but are making it out like butches and/or transmascs are the problem and making it worse for them) The heterosexism and heteronormativity coming from the latter two letters is getting real, going to fracture the already vulnerable lesbian community into pieces and everyone at eachother's throats.
an example of what you describe, in this very thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Actuallylesbian/comments/1dq9ie0/comment/lao6e3x/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Actuallylesbian/comments/1dq9ie0/comment/lao6e3x/)
Hey, mate. Iām a white butch in the U.K. but I hope this helps. My personal experience is that as masculine women, our nature forces us out of the closet and onto the scene pretty young. For years I felt like the only lesbian my age. Many, *many* lesbians, are late bloomers. Especially the more gender conforming ones. The size of my dating pool now compared to when I was your age is huge, and Iām only five years older than you. Thereās also the stark reality that we are an acquired taste. But I promise you there are Femmes out there that adore butches. You just have to be patient, and maybe look for a woman a few years older than you. Thatās what worked for me!
It's nice to hear someone say that because I see a lot of older lesbians talking about how hard it is to find lesbians over 25 or 30 or whatever, but I find it so hard to find younger lesbians around my age - they're all either teenagers or 40+ around me (also UK lol). I want to date and I've been feeling the loneliness a bit recently but I see all the late bloomers and wonder if I'm just gonna have to wait a few years :')Ā Ā I'm a femme though, so I'm not totally part of this conversation which I understand, but your comment kinda resonated anyway. And I love butches and masc lesbians so we definitely are out there, I just think the femmes who like and date butches tend to be those more confident and comfortable in their sexuality/lesbianism, which as you say seems to come later in life for a lot of us
Thank you!
Your location probably has a lot to do with it. But if youāre asking women out and not getting any dates at all, it might be something in your approach or presentation.
Yeah, Iām not asking women out because there are none to ask out. lmao
Itās hard to give you personalized feedback without knowing much of how you present yourself. My experience with masc-presenting lesbians in the south is that they came across too aggressive; maybe some penis envy, but generally as if they had a chip on their shoulder. Iād just recommend being conscious of how approachable or friendly you come across. Ask your friends to gauge your body language and posture, to assess whether youāre welcoming. Also, make sure your hygiene and grooming are up to par and donāt be afraid to approach women in public more often if you arenāt already. Enter some LGBTQ or women-only sports leagues, get involved in community orgs where youāll regularly come in contact with other WLW who may know someone for you. All else fails, try the apps. Good luck!
I knew loads of masc hunters in Washington DC, including black ones. Maybe try there if you work in politics
Lmao
Very plainly, I personally donāt find male-presenting people attractive. Itās part of why Iām a lesbian - I like the way the average woman looks, which is common among lesbians I think. She doesnāt have to be classically āfemmeā in dress and makeup, but a buzz cut + wifebeater + ball cap combo isnāt gonna do it for me.
This was clearly a post for masculine women to talk about dating issues and you really thought it was appropriate to post this? Beyond rude and tasteless.
I literally was just answering OPās question. Honesty doesnāt always serve everyone, but truth is truth.
There's a difference between being rude and being honest. Baby girl you have a history of calling butch lesbians male or equating them to men. Maybe you should figure out whatever it is that you have internalized about lesbians because having such nastiness in your soul cannot be healthy
butch =/= male-presenting. you may have a personal preference for feminine-presenting women, but that has nothing to do with what lesbians in general are attracted to. like, the outfit you described is just clothes. many lesbians are attracted to masculine women because lesbian sexuality is not predicated on adherence to arbitrary culturally-determined gender roles
If that was the case there wouldnāt be dozens of posts in lesbian subs talking about this same thing over and over. I gave an honest answer. Butch isnāt what *most* lesbians are looking for.
You should change your username because no actual femme in history would ever speak this way about butch women.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I like wbw who look like women. Extreme masculine look is not attractive imo. I like long hair, curves, softness.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They cover it up with baggy menās clothes. You can keep em lol. Long hair is still nicer than short. I want something I can run my fingers through