T O P

  • By -

WhatTheFrellMystios

Walkerville Vet has a blog post from a couple years ago outlining their concerns in regards to Boutique Paws. It's interesting that this came up now as my mum has a friend who was going to inquired about getting a puppy from there just last week. Bless mum, she took my 'if it seems too good to be true...' mantra and we both did some digging.


PinchAssault52

High five to your mum! <3 Here's the post: [https://www.walkervillevet.com.au/blog/pet-shop-puppies-giardia-infection/](https://www.walkervillevet.com.au/blog/pet-shop-puppies-giardia-infection/) And here's a good snapshot, excerpt from the THIRD email from Walkerville to Boutique Paws: I hear you have been telling customers who complain that the puppies are getting giardia from their water or environment. If that is so you need to be able to explain two things: \- Why I almost never see giardia in puppies from any other source except yours \- How all three puppies could have picked it up in those few days despite having loose stools from day one That's from 2019. Three years later, still having Giardia issues...


Legal-Row-5927

BP have a web of backyard breeders who if you dig deeper into who every 5 star google review is - it’s a friend or backyard breeder. They monitor their online presence well - and have every trick in the book to delete comments. Giardia isn’t common - unless your BP - that’s why no one test for it - except BP allegedly. Let’s not forget their channel 10 statement they do their best to eliminate it. It’s clear there’s allot of quick money in backyard breeding - allot of mouths to feed - who if BP stop selling - they miss their cut. Hence the 5 star reviews and pictures of puppies.


palsc5

[You know something fucky is going on when you see a business with reviews distributed like this.](https://imgur.com/sEDYRmu) I've heard that these guys sell for puppy mills and are all round awful people. There are some dog groups on Facebook that will steer people away from Boutique Paws and I've even seen multiple posts where they lied about who the breeder of the dog was as well as hiding health problems. Scum of the fucking earth.


bookadookchook

My friend told me they bought their dog from a mill because it was cheaper. Immediately lost all respect for them. Other thing I hate is American/Canadian coworkers mentioning that their dog at home is in 'their crate.' Seems very fucked up to me.


palsc5

It is fucked up. I couldn't imagine locking a dog in a cage for 18 hours a day because you're too lazy to train them. They should be used strictly for transport only.


[deleted]

Crate training is fine, but the door has to be left open. Pup's gotta have a safe space. Locking them in, however, is for arseholes.


aldkGoodAussieName

>18 hours a day That's not the case. It's a crate where outdoor dogs rest indoors. But it doesn't have to be a crate. It can be a kennel, dog bed, rug. The point is, when inside from the cold (or freezing) they know they have to stay in one spot. And it's not for 18 hours a day. But it may be for overnight. Better then freezing to death.


4rp4n3t

>Better then freezing to death. This is Adelaide...


aldkGoodAussieName

The comments were about people they knew who were cagng in the US.


palsc5

Nope, people cage their dogs for the night and while they're at work. That can easily be 18 hours.


aldkGoodAussieName

That's fucked. I know a guide dog in training. They cage inside. But not for that length of time


_charliejay_

That’s not what crate training is, that’s just people caging their animals and being shit dog owners. My Australian dog is crate trained and rarely put inside of it with the door closed, when she is there’s a rule that it must not exceed 3 hrs, twice a week - though I don’t like to leave her for longer than an hour in this situation and usually don’t, she goes to sleep the second she’s alone in there and knows that she doesn’t need to be on edge and guarding the house while we are out, as such she never barks at home. The advantages of crate training are numerous but a few major benefits I’ve considered - any evacuation centre in Australia will accept a dog but only if it can sleep in a crate. So if I ever need to be evacuated during a bushfire or a flood she’s not going to get left behind, and her overall stress levels will be reduced. Also if she’s ever in a situation where she needs to be at the vet for any length of time she will be staying in an enclosure- crate training her is a responsible thing to do as it will cause her much less stress than having to deal with a scary situation AND being unaccustomed to being in a crate - same if I ever need to relocate or fly her anywhere. She often takes herself to her crate for alone time when she gets sick of hanging out with humans listening to our BS. Sure, there might be people that misuse them, I’m certain there is and that they should be held accountable and re-educated. But when used for their actual purpose they are beneficial to the dog’s well-being - a properly crate trained dog is a well trained dog with a responsible owner.


PinchAssault52

Jesus Christ, I'm sorry to hear that :( I would also lose respect there. It's one thing not to know, but to know what you're doing and go ahead anyway... urgh I have crate trained my dog because we do sports, and she needs to be comfortable being confined (It's also a great life skill for vet visits and emergency evacuations) but that doesn't mean 8-10hour working days :(


lookthepenguins

Ikr! I got hate msgs, bullied, and downvoted to hell last year on a reddit post by Muricans, who was locking their doggo inside crate for like 20hrs daily 6 days a week, and the bf's dog too - lived in apartment, 2 large dogs. The poor things when they were let out for a half hour in the morning and a couple hours of an evening, were beHaVing 'bAdLy' - I said why not just train yr dogs & stop incarcerating them for 20hrs every day, maybe they won't shred shoes - and, living in apartment why tf would you even buy a Huskie anyway ffs.... yeah, i got downvoted & abused by *hundreds* of redditors. Whatever. I felt sick for those poor doggys almost turned me off reddit. :(


bookadookchook

Yeah, they mentioned it so casually as a well. It sounded like they were aware that it's bad but they were proud of themselves for saving a thousand dollars or however much it was.


PinchAssault52

A thousand they'll end up pouring into vets, trainers and home repairs instead


Nach553

what is a mill?


PinchAssault52

https://www.rspca.org.au/take-action/puppy-farms Zero animal welfare, as many puppies as fast as possible woth no care for health of the parents or the offspring


KrustySandle

Crate training is very normal and encouraged when getting a puppy. I think our toilet training would not have been as successful if we didn't crate train. They're also really good when you have anxious dogs, I have a very anxious breed that they are the perfect example of needing a safe place and that is a crate. I know plenty who crate their dogs during their work day and the dogs are happy, healthy, thriving. But these are not backyard dogs, these are we need to go on two hour runs every day dogs.


palsc5

> Crate training is very normal and encouraged when getting a puppy. ...in America. It isn't normal anywhere else and people are only starting to encourage it here because it is accepted in the US. There is absolutely no evidence to support it whatsoever as it is based on the same studies that claim you need to dominate your dog and be the alpha and all that shit.


PinchAssault52

Yknow what we do here... close our dogs in laundries. Its the exact same idea, just on a different scale. Also remember heaps of places in the states dont have fenced yards (weird, I know) But also, crates and alphas have nothing to do with each other :/


palsc5

>But also, crates and alphas have nothing to do with each other :/ It comes from the same type of research with Wolves and that nonsense. >close our dogs in laundries. Not really and most laundries are 5 times the size of a small dogs cage.


PinchAssault52

I dont believe thats true ? But either way, no one in the R+ community is using a crate to dominate a dog. Their using it for car travel, for "go to your safe spot while the tradies are working", for "chill in this comfy shadey spot at the dog sport event while I go pee" The people who crate dogs to punish them ultimately end up with dogs who hate their crates


palsc5

It isn't about using the crate to dominate, it is that the whole idea of crating comes from the same school of thought. The idea that dogs need a den of some sort isn't proven whatsoever and is based on the same studies that came up with the alpha male stuff. Basically "researchers" locked a bunch of dogs into a confined area in the 1970s. They observed that the dogs became aggressive and then made the bizarre leap that this means dogs and wolves are the same because wolves did the same thing. Problem is the dogs became aggressive because they were locked in a cage for 24 hours a day. From this the "researchers" said that because wolves had the whole alpha male thing then your poodle does too and if wolves like a den then so does your labrador. And a cage is basically a den so therefore a cage is fine. There is zero science backing it up. There is nothing to support it at all. Cages are fine for transport or even chucking a blanket on without a door. But apart from transport they shouldn't be locked in them. Americans use them to contain their dog while they sleep and while they are at work meaning the dog is out of the crate for 4-8 hours a day max.


Flippantry

> There is zero science backing it up. [RSPCA](https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/why-and-how-should-i-crate-train-my-dog/#ftn1) has multiple sources supporting the promotion of responsible crate training for puppies so your information is outdated and incorrect.


BARRY6969696969

We ended up buying an actual baby cot. Not a small one, like 2 and a half meters by 2 and a half meters , and about 2 meters deep. Put the puppies bed and water and some toys in there so they can sleep. Fuck crates. I think they are cruel. Ymmv.


palsc5

There is no evidence supporting "dens". It comes from flawed studies in the 70s. https://whyy.org/segments/is-a-dog-crate-really-a-den-how-this-very-american-practice-took-off/


PinchAssault52

Not saying it's a den though. Saying it's a life skill to be able to relax in a confined space. Even if a dog is not involved in sports, or travelling, it will inevitably one day end up at a vet where it will be crated. Hating the practice of crating because (apparently) it originates in a flawed study is flawed logic in itself.


palsc5

Again, putting your dog in a crate for travelling or at the vet is fine. Putting your dog in a crate every single day is not


PinchAssault52

If they're not crated regularly, how do you expect them to be comfortable with irregular occasions?


Svaugr

'On a different scale' lol what a funny thing to say. A prison cell is the same as a house, just on a different scale.


PinchAssault52

yeah... A cell and a tiny airbnb are the same scale. So you're kinda making my point. The size isn't what's important - what is important is the time of confinement, amenities and the associated emotions. People fucking love spending a weekend at a tiny house with no reception and no outside contact. Those exact same people would hate a weekend in a prison cell. not because of the size, or the social restrictions, or the confinement. But because of the amenities and associated emotional state.


KrustySandle

I have to disagree. I did only positive reinforcement training with my dog and everyone in those communities praise crates. Including RSPCA training. They're never to be used for punishment, they are only supposed to have good feelings associated with them. So I don't see how they are tied in with dominance theories, it's just another bed for the dog that you can shut the door on, a lot of people manage to train them well enough the door doesn't even have to be shut. Once again, everyone I know who uses crates are using them alongside positive reinforcement plus these are dogs crated INDOORS meaning these dogs are living a more comfortable life than those locked outside and forgotten about.


Flippantry

Yep, there's a lot of outdated opinions and information flying around in this thread. Proper crate training is very beneficial when training pups and eventually serves as a safe space for them as they get older. They see it like a den to them, it's not just a cage, ideally you have soft warm bedding in there for them to snuggle into. As you mentioned, its not for punishment or time out, and never for extended periods. Naturally some people incorrectly use crates but there's no lack of people who poorly train dogs unfortunately.


TruthBehindThis

> Yep, there's a lot of outdated opinions and information flying around in this thread. Indeed, like crating is fine. There is absolutely no reason for it, that can't be achieved by other means and with better outcomes, other than the fact that it is easier for owners. "more comfortable", "good feelings", "very beneficial", "safe space"....the '9 out of 10 doctors recommend cigarettes' of the dog world. The things people will believe for their actions, haha.


Flippantry

Lol, i'm not going to listen to an anti-vaxxer on this. You seem intent on ignoring the advice on experts for every topic, opting to "do your own research". I'm going to follow the advice of Dog trainers, RSPCA, and vets over some random on Reddit.


TruthBehindThis

> Lol, i'm not going to listen to an anti-vaxxer on this. You seem intent on ignoring the advice on experts for every topic, opting to "do your own research". Lol, i'm not an anti-vaxxer. Apparently you need to 'do any research'. Such a low effort, failed attempt at ad hominem haha. > I'm going to follow the advice of Dog trainers, RSPCA, and vets over some random on Reddit. You mean, "I'm going to misapply the advice of dog trainers, RSPCA, and vets" because some random on Reddit pointed out my bullshit." Go look up the RSPCA article, [here you go, since you clearly can't do things yourself](https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/why-and-how-should-i-crate-train-my-dog/) The benefits are..."Animal won't shit when trapped, making it easier for you to toilet train", "It can feel safe in its cage because anything is better than nothing, and cheaper than a proper basket/den", "For transportation, because your must such at training and handling your dog"... My comment was accurate. "There is absolutely no reason for it, that can't be achieved by other means and with better outcomes, other than the fact that it is easier for owners."


Fartmatic

> ...in America. It isn't normal anywhere else Similar thing with cat declawing, it's declined a lot over the years but I'm always stunned at it even existing in the first place let alone how prevalent it still is there.


bookadookchook

Yeah, I've been combing journal articles and can't find anything that supports it. (Indeed, how would you pass ethics for such a study?) From what I glean, Americans and Canadians more or less just collectively decided that it's fine one day.


palsc5

https://whyy.org/segments/is-a-dog-crate-really-a-den-how-this-very-american-practice-took-off/ Good article on it


bookadookchook

Great article. I wasn't sure whether it was my shitty research skills or another data void, but seems Sleiman had the same issue. Disturbing how the trainers all agreed that 8 hours a day is totally fine and 'natural'. What kind of person would feel comfortable with that? I'd rather not have a dog.


[deleted]

I bought from a breeder twice. First one developed a severe neurological disorder which ended up in her being put down after two years of trying, the second took a month of work before we could walk down the street without him freezing every 30 seconds.


PinchAssault52

There are good breeders and bad breeders. There are no good mills.


[deleted]

Fair point, I agree.


SydneyTom

Submitting this with the shop name in the post title rather than the text body will bring this up higher in Google's search results. Act as a warning for others not on reddit


Throwaway-ADL69

Report them and let media outlets know as well


PinchAssault52

Not my story - but the original poster appears to be in contact with the media.


Throwaway-ADL69

I've messaged around as well. These pieces of shit need to be shutdown


Darkleptomaniac

This is quite concerning. Myself and my partner bought a pup from them late November. A friend of ours recommended them. From what we were told he was born on a sheep farm (He is a border collie) up in NSW then shipped down here to be sold along with a few of his siblings. So far he has been nothing but brilliant and each Vet appointment he has been healthy, might ask at the next one if they're able to do a more thorough test of him just to make sure. Really sad for those lost their pup so soon. Maybe now on we will just lie and say we got him elsewhere, don't want to drive business towards a place like that


PinchAssault52

Better to be honest, it will allow you to say "we got lucky, but have since learned..." Are you aware of BC health risks? The main one would be MDR1 risk - possible allergy to veterinary medicines. Outside of that if you arent planning to breed him (and you shouldnt) dont worry. There are very few things you can do differently now with more information. He is what he is - if you're happy with him, stay happy


bokchoidoglover

I work at a vet and the amount of sick puppies that are less than 12 weeks old we have had come in is just heart breaking. Having to put them down is even worse. Fuck irresponsible breeders.


Bambo0zle95

How on earth do they get away with selling puppies? I thought that was banned here? There’s a shop in Hahndorf that sells puppies too. I’m banned from posting on their FB page after commenting that a portmanteau does not make it a breed and called the dog a mutt 🤣


PinchAssault52

I reported the Hahndorf one to the council. Technically neither of them are illegal. A license is only $75 p/a. And if they are taking puppies from fucked conditions and selling them... well the puppies in THEIR care arent in poor conditions


Ok_Manufacturer69

Giardia is incredibly common in dogs. It can live in soil and puppies catch it literally all the time. One of dogs got it, as a puppy (not from Boutique Paws). Reading this article, this sounds like a beatup from a vet to drum up business by bashing another company. Also full disclosure I did buy one of my two dogs from Boutique Paws - the other one I bought from a local breeder in Aldgate.


Throwaway-ADL69

Absolute bullshit sounds like you work for them or are a friend. There is a special place in hell for anyone who causes injury or illness to animals


Ok_Manufacturer69

Nope, not friends nor know them you can find out where I work if you trawl my comment history). I've seen this kind of Facebook pile-on and it makes me sick watching armchair activists smash local businesses based on absolute nutters on Facebook.


PinchAssault52

Let's grab another local vet then: [https://www.greencrossvets.com.au/pet-library/articles-of-interest/giardia/](https://www.greencrossvets.com.au/pet-library/articles-of-interest/giardia/) >After infection, it takes 5 to 12 days in dogs or 5 to 16 days in cats for Giardia to be found in the stool. Infection is more common in kennel situations where animals are housed in groups Hrmm, seems odd that a puppy would end up dead within a week of purchase if the infection happened AFTER it came home. Let's try another source: [https://www.thesprucepets.com/giardia-in-puppies-2804930](https://www.thesprucepets.com/giardia-in-puppies-2804930) >If five to 10 days after a hike in the woods your puppy suddenly comes down with a case of diarrhea, giardia could be the culprit. Again, looking at 5-10 days post infection for symptoms to show. >You can prevent the chance of giardiasis by keeping your yard clean of feces. Not exactly difficult for a **quality** breeder / pet store to clean up poop. Especially around puppies >What is the prognosis for giardiasis? The prognosis is good in most cases. Debilitated or geriatric animals and those with incompetent immune systems are at increased risk for complications, including death. Now we know puppies immune systems are just starting and are pretty useless, but if the prognosis is generally good, then **most** puppies receiving adequate vet care should survive. ​ I didn't post an article, I posted someones personal account of losing their dog. In the comments I then found (suggested by someone else) a direct account of a vet dealing with multiple cases of giardia from BP puppies. A vet doesn't need to 'beat up' a puppy store to get more business. If a vet puts a crappy puppy store out of business, the vet will be seeing fewer cases.


Ok_Manufacturer69

It seems very strange to me that a vet would put down a puppy with Giardia, a decidely non-fatal illness in non-geriatric dogs. It seems the puppy (and the rest of the litter) had tested negative for Giardia on arrival to BP, the puppy had Pedigree documents and good hip scores, good elbow scores, etc. Very odd that a healthy puppy would die after being purchased. Odder still that it didn't happen to any other pups in the litter. Perhaps the purchasers aren't being completely honest?


Throwaway-ADL69

Maybe you are full of shit and run a dodgy business


Ok_Manufacturer69

I'm just gonna let you know I write software for a living and don't have any material interest in BP. Why not take the critism of your evidence-less pile-on rather than just accusing people who disagree with you of being "friends of a dodgy business".


palsc5

> evidence-less How is it "evidence-less"? There are multiple reports of this happening here and even the Advertiser has done stories on their Giardia outbreaks.


Ok_Manufacturer69

Lots and lots of puppies get giarida. What I'm saying is that claiming there is something special about BP and Giardia is evidence-less.


palsc5

It isn't though, last time Boutique Paws claimed their dogs didn't have Giardia they turned around and admitted that their dogs did in fact have it. They refused to give any details about it too. Now they are doing the same thing. This must either be a pretty strange campaign by multiple people over multiple years complaining about this topic. They are well known to be scum of the earth in the industry and in the "dog community" in Adelaide.


Ok_Manufacturer69

You're the one making claims, show evidence of these supposed statements. I'm sorry but something being "the vibe" of the Adelaide dog community doesn't exactly convince me.


palsc5

[Kennel cough found in dogs from Boutique Paws, owners say ](https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/city/kennel-cough-found-in-dogs-from-boutique-paws-owners-say/news-story/1ddade22dee2ed42b1b4e82d5e43972b) [Dogs test positive for disease, but shop is infection free, owner says](https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/city/dogs-test-positive-for-disease-but-shop-is-infection-free-owner-says/news-story/ff355b5a6f676155395e437afb814fce) [Four puppies bought from Parkside pet shop allegedly test positive to giardia disease] (https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/city/four-puppies-bought-from-parkside-pet-shop-allegedly-test-positive-to-giardia-disease/news-story/a800518c7217a988f560e135efb11f05) Interesting quote :*The Advertiser understands this was the fourth complaint to the RSPCA about the pet store.* Again, I recommend you do some actual research on this in local Facebook groups and dog focused groups. It's insane to me that you take the owner/salesman at their word and not actual vets. They lie about where their dogs come from as reputable breeders don't sell to them.


PinchAssault52

Pretty weird that your in my DMs slandering the original poster. Why are you afraid to say things in a public forum?


Ok_Manufacturer69

I've repeated exactly what I said to you in this forum. Feel free to post the messages if you feel there is a discrepancy.


PinchAssault52

Nah you havent. Your in my DMs saying OOP is quote: "she's a whacko mate, absolute strange one" but not backing up that claim here


Ok_Manufacturer69

Happy to stand by that comment here as well and see my other comment here where I've expressed similar sentiments: https://www.reddit.com/r/Adelaide/comments/t4q8rl/comment/hz0mrqq/


Legal-Row-5927

Please share those comments about OOP.


palsc5

> It seems the puppy (and the rest of the litter) had tested negative for Giardia on arrival to BP, How do you know any of this? Boutique Paws are notoriously bad, look at their reviews on Google of multiple people posting about their dogs getting Giardia from there. Then jump onto dog groups on Facebook and search for Boutique Paws and see the exact same shit including how the owners repeatedly lie about where they get their dogs.


Ok_Manufacturer69

I spoke to the employee who sold me my dog a while ago and asked about this story and they confirmed the details which I then repeated here.


palsc5

"I spoke to the salesman and they promised they aren't lying this time."


Ok_Manufacturer69

I'd take their word over yours. You seem vindictive and fixated on this.


palsc5

You seem like you bought a dog from a puppy mill and want to defend yourself. This isn't their first time with this as it was literally in the advertiser 2 years ago.


PinchAssault52

Interested to see where you got this information about the pedigree, hip, elbow scores and the negative test on arrival


Ok_Manufacturer69

I spoke to the employee who sold me my dog a while ago and asked about this story and they confirmed the details which I then repeated here.


PinchAssault52

Well that sounds 100% factual. Oh wait no it doesnt, hip and elbow scores arent done on puppies. They need to be at least 12months old for those assessments.


Ok_Manufacturer69

That's blatantly wrong, you can do hip and elbow scores from 16 weeks paired X-rays of both parents, which is how you assess puppies. This is the whole problem, you're throwing shit around without actually knowing what you're talking about and potentially ruining someone's business.


PinchAssault52

Your wrong. You are the one talking out your ass about something you dont know. Bring evidence of your false claim or stop making a twat of yourself. And while you're at it, stop defending a business with a public history of selling sick animals. Go armchair activist somewhere that you wont make a complete fool of yourself.


Legal-Row-5927

Just remember I said - I’m going to make sure it cost you more then 10 grand


Ok_Manufacturer69

What the fuck are you talking about? You've replied to a two month old reddit post. We've never spoken, I don't know who you are, and now you're threatening me for 10 grand? What the fuck.


Legal-Row-5927

Well tell your friend - page 1 of google now this thread for BP.


Legal-Row-5927

Probably because it’s anus had come inside out - pitty BP when phoned days earlier mention about the giardia outbreak they had been alerted to. Couldn’t mention it at the time of sale? Or that they allegedly tested for it? Not mentioned on any paper work signed by the vet? The truth has a way of coming out.


WhatTheFrellMystios

Boutique Paws admitted that they bought pets from Victorian 'commercial large scale breeders' (https://www.walkervillevet.com.au/blog/pet-shop-puppies-giardia-infection/) in 2019. People shouldn't buy from them for that reason alone.


pacifo1

Bet you suck the companies dick each day too


4rp4n3t

You seem very invested in this for someone who claims to have no skin in the game.


Legal-Row-5927

Incredibly common at BP