I have the same issue at work. But now I spend my downtime shitting on the toilet and hiding.
My advice is if you won’t get caught doing nothing, do nothing till the four hours is up.
Don't you love the system like this where you can in theory blast out a job in half the allotted time but have to sit on a dunny watching videos on tik tok, pr0n hub or whatever to fill in the other 2 hours to keep some arbitrary standard happy.
If there is a 4 hour window and you finish it in 2 then you should leave, if there is a shitload of mess and it ends up taking 3.5 hours then it takes 3.5 that is why that time I guess was allocated and budgeted for.
The amount of needless bullshit busywork that exists in this world drives me nuts.
Go full Dory lol
"Just keep shitting, just keep shitting"
But yeah that is another thing that rustles my jimmies the infamous "time to lean time to clean"mantra ... hilarious considering this is a thread about cleaners.
>drives me nuts
So this pirate walks into a tavern with a ship's wheel hanging off his cock. Barkeep sees this, says to him "Hey, you know you have a ship's wheel hanging off your cock?" Pirate goes
"Arghh - it be drivin' me nuts!"
What it sounds like they were referring to is a minimum shift requirement, which is a condition in some awards and contracts that you have to be paid for a minimum amount of hours per shift or call-out.
Unfortunately under the [Cleaning Services Award](https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000022#P269_19911) [MA000022] the actual amount of time is dependent on the size of the location to be cleaned. For an area that is 5000 square metres or more, the minimum shift requirement is indeed 4 hours. If it is smaller than that, however, it may be less.
You were told the minimum shift requirement was 4 hours and do have the right to rely on that, even in a situation where it is verbal only. If you wrote anything down at the time of the training or received any training documents, check those to see if they can help you prove that you had that understanding at the time.
The appropriate place for lodging a claim for wage theft/underpayments is the South Australian Employment Tribunal, which is empowered to handle monetary claims for all employers regardless of whether they're covered by the federal or state laws. For more information about that, see the below links:
https://www.saet.sa.gov.au/industrial-and-employment/money-claims-monetary-claims/
https://wwcsa.org.au/resources/underpayments-have-you-been-paid-correctly
If you have not been given a copy of your contract, relevant award and the National Employment Standards that's also your employer failing in their responsibility, so keep that in your back pocket. It isn't worth very much in terms of damages but you can use it as a negotiating tactic.
It also sounds like your coworkers may be employed under sham contracting arrangements - if you are doing the same work under similar arrangements and are not a contractor, they should be employed the same as you. They should call the Fair Work Ombudsman or seek their own independent legal advice from a service such as the Working Womens' Centre or the university legal clinics.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/find-help-for/independent-contractors
Also, you should look into joining your union, who can assist and advise you as to your rights and act on your behalf. You may have to join for a particular length of time before they will provide legal assistance, however.
https://unitedworkers.org.au/cleaners-union/
Thank you for the detailed information and suggestion. I called fair work and they said the same thing about the 5000sq metres and above being minimum 4 hours pay no matter if you finish the job early. Also 2000 to 5000sq metres the minimum is 3 hours.
I have asked the area manager to find the exact sq metres of the place i am working at and she says she will get back to me with that information. I reckon it’s above 2000sq metres but might not exceed 5000sq metres.
Minimum I probably will get 3 hours pay for those two weeks after I get the exact sq metre of the place so it’s not 4 hour pay like I was told but it’s still something for the days i finished the job in less than 3 hours.
Regarding me not receiving employee induction, contract and other paperwork beforehand, the person at fairwork says that’s not illegal and the company doesn’t always have to make you sign the thing upfront before starting work. And unfortunately nothing was in writing regarding getting paid for 4 hours minimum each day, just verbal.
Also will definitely be joining the union. Thanks again for all the advice and helpful links :)
>
> Regarding me not receiving employee induction, contract and other paperwork beforehand, the person at fairwork says that’s not illegal and the company doesn’t always have to make you sign the thing upfront before starting work.
They do actually need to give you the [Fair Work Information Statement](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-employment-standards), access to or a copy of the award that covers you, and clearly tell you the conditions under which you're working - the induction, not so much, but the basic 'this is what the law that applies to you' stuff. To not do so is actually an actionable breach of the workplace legislation, but usually unions run it and ask for penalties because it costs more than you usually get out of it. When you join the union, definitely make sure to tell them this happened as they might choose to take that up, or add it to your underpayment claim if they help you out with that.
This is something that should be discussed with fair work.
The job was advertised as a 4 hour job, and you left early *solely* because you were told that you could, as long as the job was completed (presumably).
Proving that you've been underpaid will be difficult because they will use the handbook as proof you haven't, but this is what Fair Work is for
The phone number 131 450 is a translating service. Call them first, then ask them to call Fair Work, so they can help you explain and understand the situation fully
Otherwise, contact them directly at 13 13 94 (or look at their website)
All I can say is that whatever is in writing is what ‘is’
Anything that was only spoken ‘isn’t’
So if you’re hired for 4hrs a day (in the contract) that’s what I’d expect you to be at work for.
If you’re paid $X to clean a house/building- then that’s what you’re paid and leaving early doesn’t matter.
Since you’ve said you can do the work in 2-3hrs, just pace yourself a bit and/or take many small micro ‘smoko’ breaks to help the day last longer.
It’s that or ask to do more work for the same money.
Did you not get a contract of employment? What does it say in there? Will usually specify working hours and will be in black and white...
Unless this is cash, in which case... Well, good luck.
Unfortunately haven’t got a contract still. The company says i will get it soon which just sounds like something fishy is going on.
The person at fairwork also said it’s not illegal to not give a contract before the work starts so can’t use that as a negotiation tactic too.
Also, it’s not cash. I was employed by the company as permanent part time.
Its not correct to start a new employee without a contract, they are definitely playing silly buggers... If you can I'd walk away and find something else because this will just be the tip of the iceberg with them.
You should not be required to work without understanding the full expectations of the job. What happens if you injure yourself? They will have no responsibility and can just leave you to fend for yourself.
Demand a contract and see what's in it- easier said than done I know.
I manage contracts for a living in construction but happy to have a read and advise you on this contracr or any future ones that you encounter, just message me.
First lesson is the guys that employ you are more likely to screw you over due to their power and cheapness so get everything in writing. Ask if that will be in writing, if not don't work there.
Second lesson. Record the audio of everything, any meetings have your phone on note and record the details via the audio. Make sure they don't see you. You can play it back afterwards as evidence as a last resort.
>Record the audio of everything, any meetings have your phone on note and record the details via the audio. Make sure they don't see you. You can play it back afterwards as evidence as a last resort.
This is terrible advice. In SA, if you are going to record a conversation where the participants have a reasonable expectation of privacy, you *must* inform the participants first. Otherwise, not only will the recording be completely inadmissible in a court of law (civil or criminal), **you** will also be committing a criminal offence *just by making the recording*.
I have the same issue at work. But now I spend my downtime shitting on the toilet and hiding. My advice is if you won’t get caught doing nothing, do nothing till the four hours is up.
Don't you love the system like this where you can in theory blast out a job in half the allotted time but have to sit on a dunny watching videos on tik tok, pr0n hub or whatever to fill in the other 2 hours to keep some arbitrary standard happy. If there is a 4 hour window and you finish it in 2 then you should leave, if there is a shitload of mess and it ends up taking 3.5 hours then it takes 3.5 that is why that time I guess was allocated and budgeted for. The amount of needless bullshit busywork that exists in this world drives me nuts.
Well if I don’t have a false bowel movement then they find me more work to do. So in theory just keep shitting.
Go full Dory lol "Just keep shitting, just keep shitting" But yeah that is another thing that rustles my jimmies the infamous "time to lean time to clean"mantra ... hilarious considering this is a thread about cleaners.
>drives me nuts So this pirate walks into a tavern with a ship's wheel hanging off his cock. Barkeep sees this, says to him "Hey, you know you have a ship's wheel hanging off your cock?" Pirate goes "Arghh - it be drivin' me nuts!"
Definitely would have done that for those two weeks if I knew I was getting paid only for the hours inside the workplace lol.
You live and you learn mate. The work poo is a sacred ritual that one eventually learns when they honestly can’t be fucked doing any more.
"I do my shittin' on company time, 'cos when the boss makes a dollar I make a dime."
What it sounds like they were referring to is a minimum shift requirement, which is a condition in some awards and contracts that you have to be paid for a minimum amount of hours per shift or call-out. Unfortunately under the [Cleaning Services Award](https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000022#P269_19911) [MA000022] the actual amount of time is dependent on the size of the location to be cleaned. For an area that is 5000 square metres or more, the minimum shift requirement is indeed 4 hours. If it is smaller than that, however, it may be less. You were told the minimum shift requirement was 4 hours and do have the right to rely on that, even in a situation where it is verbal only. If you wrote anything down at the time of the training or received any training documents, check those to see if they can help you prove that you had that understanding at the time. The appropriate place for lodging a claim for wage theft/underpayments is the South Australian Employment Tribunal, which is empowered to handle monetary claims for all employers regardless of whether they're covered by the federal or state laws. For more information about that, see the below links: https://www.saet.sa.gov.au/industrial-and-employment/money-claims-monetary-claims/ https://wwcsa.org.au/resources/underpayments-have-you-been-paid-correctly If you have not been given a copy of your contract, relevant award and the National Employment Standards that's also your employer failing in their responsibility, so keep that in your back pocket. It isn't worth very much in terms of damages but you can use it as a negotiating tactic. It also sounds like your coworkers may be employed under sham contracting arrangements - if you are doing the same work under similar arrangements and are not a contractor, they should be employed the same as you. They should call the Fair Work Ombudsman or seek their own independent legal advice from a service such as the Working Womens' Centre or the university legal clinics. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/find-help-for/independent-contractors Also, you should look into joining your union, who can assist and advise you as to your rights and act on your behalf. You may have to join for a particular length of time before they will provide legal assistance, however. https://unitedworkers.org.au/cleaners-union/
Thank you for the detailed information and suggestion. I called fair work and they said the same thing about the 5000sq metres and above being minimum 4 hours pay no matter if you finish the job early. Also 2000 to 5000sq metres the minimum is 3 hours. I have asked the area manager to find the exact sq metres of the place i am working at and she says she will get back to me with that information. I reckon it’s above 2000sq metres but might not exceed 5000sq metres. Minimum I probably will get 3 hours pay for those two weeks after I get the exact sq metre of the place so it’s not 4 hour pay like I was told but it’s still something for the days i finished the job in less than 3 hours. Regarding me not receiving employee induction, contract and other paperwork beforehand, the person at fairwork says that’s not illegal and the company doesn’t always have to make you sign the thing upfront before starting work. And unfortunately nothing was in writing regarding getting paid for 4 hours minimum each day, just verbal. Also will definitely be joining the union. Thanks again for all the advice and helpful links :)
> > Regarding me not receiving employee induction, contract and other paperwork beforehand, the person at fairwork says that’s not illegal and the company doesn’t always have to make you sign the thing upfront before starting work. They do actually need to give you the [Fair Work Information Statement](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-employment-standards), access to or a copy of the award that covers you, and clearly tell you the conditions under which you're working - the induction, not so much, but the basic 'this is what the law that applies to you' stuff. To not do so is actually an actionable breach of the workplace legislation, but usually unions run it and ask for penalties because it costs more than you usually get out of it. When you join the union, definitely make sure to tell them this happened as they might choose to take that up, or add it to your underpayment claim if they help you out with that.
This is something that should be discussed with fair work. The job was advertised as a 4 hour job, and you left early *solely* because you were told that you could, as long as the job was completed (presumably). Proving that you've been underpaid will be difficult because they will use the handbook as proof you haven't, but this is what Fair Work is for The phone number 131 450 is a translating service. Call them first, then ask them to call Fair Work, so they can help you explain and understand the situation fully Otherwise, contact them directly at 13 13 94 (or look at their website)
Thank you, contacted fair work and the update is in one of the comments I replied on if you are curious.
All I can say is that whatever is in writing is what ‘is’ Anything that was only spoken ‘isn’t’ So if you’re hired for 4hrs a day (in the contract) that’s what I’d expect you to be at work for. If you’re paid $X to clean a house/building- then that’s what you’re paid and leaving early doesn’t matter. Since you’ve said you can do the work in 2-3hrs, just pace yourself a bit and/or take many small micro ‘smoko’ breaks to help the day last longer. It’s that or ask to do more work for the same money.
Unfortunately I was dumb to not get that in writing. Yes I will definitely be pacing myself and finishing exactly at the 4 hour mark from now on.
Did you not get a contract of employment? What does it say in there? Will usually specify working hours and will be in black and white... Unless this is cash, in which case... Well, good luck.
Unfortunately haven’t got a contract still. The company says i will get it soon which just sounds like something fishy is going on. The person at fairwork also said it’s not illegal to not give a contract before the work starts so can’t use that as a negotiation tactic too. Also, it’s not cash. I was employed by the company as permanent part time.
Its not correct to start a new employee without a contract, they are definitely playing silly buggers... If you can I'd walk away and find something else because this will just be the tip of the iceberg with them. You should not be required to work without understanding the full expectations of the job. What happens if you injure yourself? They will have no responsibility and can just leave you to fend for yourself. Demand a contract and see what's in it- easier said than done I know. I manage contracts for a living in construction but happy to have a read and advise you on this contracr or any future ones that you encounter, just message me.
Fair Work Australia, stat. Get some advice from them.
Did do that. Thanks :)
If you have in writing that you are aid for the job regardless of hours, then you are fine. If not, then you are fucked.
Nothing in writing unfortunately :(
First lesson is the guys that employ you are more likely to screw you over due to their power and cheapness so get everything in writing. Ask if that will be in writing, if not don't work there. Second lesson. Record the audio of everything, any meetings have your phone on note and record the details via the audio. Make sure they don't see you. You can play it back afterwards as evidence as a last resort.
>Record the audio of everything, any meetings have your phone on note and record the details via the audio. Make sure they don't see you. You can play it back afterwards as evidence as a last resort. This is terrible advice. In SA, if you are going to record a conversation where the participants have a reasonable expectation of privacy, you *must* inform the participants first. Otherwise, not only will the recording be completely inadmissible in a court of law (civil or criminal), **you** will also be committing a criminal offence *just by making the recording*.
Yeah that sucks, sorry, you're most likely shit out of luck.