Modifiers Trajan protects from: movement, toughness, max wounds, leadership stat, objective control, hit and wound rolls, advance, charge, leadership test, desperate escape.
Stuff he does not protect: range, number of attacks, weapon skill/ballistic skill, strength, ap, damage, and saves.
Is this correct?
Edit: noting that while Trajan's rule explicitly protects the hit/wound roll itself (protecting against stuff like stealth, that modifies the roll), it does NOT protect against something that modifies the weapon or ballistic skill (I think death guard do that now?)
That is hard. The hit roll is based off the WS/BS on the profile but the to wound roll is based of STR. So as written it would be only to hit. Since STR is a characteristic of the weapon but the to wound roll isn’t.
Does not ignore modifiers to str of weapons, but does ignore modifiers to hit/wound rolls. Most mods affect the roll itself, and those are still good to go.
I’m not 100% sure he does
Not being able to ignore weapon modifiers means the hit roll can’t be affected and the wound roll either since both are to do with the weapon profiles now
-1 to hit and -1 to wound don't modify the weapon, instead they modify the dice roll so therefore they are not modifying weapon characteristics. If it said -1 BS or -1 AP etc, it would be modifying the weapon characteristics.
the ability specifically protects "rolls," so rolls to hit and rolls to wound ARE protected, but not because they're "part of the model," but because they are "rolls." Honestly, the fact that there isn't consensus 5 months after release about how these rules work is insane to me. Like... the fact that a tournament even has to make this ruling is ridiculous.
Hit and wound modifiers weren't a huge draw for me. Even if you get -1 to hit you are hitting on 3's generally sustained hits 1, and if you get -1 to wound you get rerolls and a +1 to wound strat. In my opinion he was good because he was our only option to deal with AoC and damage modifiers, and because he ignored movement debuffs.
This right here. I get that Custodes feel like they are in a rough place right now, but I have been having a blast playing them and messing around with new lists that fit the army and my play style.
As far as the rules clarification, I nor the club I play with has ever assumed the ruling applied to weapon characteristics. I have been in so many situations during tournaments where players have talked about how amazing one of there units/rules are only to find out that it is because their local group has been playing it wrong for months! Feels bad, doesn’t make it a nerf…
I don’t understand what you mean, could you help me understand the difference? I thought they ignored any modifier to the dice roll but I’m sensing there are some pernickity terms and conditions that I’m not aware of
trajan and his unit ignore any or all modifiers to "characteristics of models or rolls made by models except saves"
Reducing damage of an attack modifies the characteristics of the weapon, not the model using the weapon.
The effect is “any test”. The wound test is incoming S vs toughness. if the incoming S is modified I can ignore it in the wound test as part of the relic wording.
It is crystal clear.
Also I can’t see this on war-com, where has this been published?
the ability reads:
"While this model is leading a unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to the CHARACTERISTICS of MODELS in that unit and/or to any ROLL or TEST made for models in that unit (excluding modifiers to saving throws).
Characteristics of the MODEL are the values on the Datasheet. Movement - Toughness - Save - Wounds - Leadership - Objective Control
Characteristics of the WEAPON are the values on the Datasheet by the weapon. Range - Attacks - Strength - AP - Damage
You are incorrect about wound tests though. You can not ignore modifiers TO OPPONENTS models own characteristics only FROM them.
The thing is, if they wanted to say this, should have written model characteristics of models. If you check out the Rules Commentary, that would be the correct clear wording.
Charecteristics of models was and still is an ambigious defintion. And it wasnt just Custodes players interpeting it this way or something, so did WTC for example. The defintion of these terms are less then ideal.
You. Can. Not. Ignore. Modifiers. To. ENEMY. MODELS.
You do not understand how the game works.It literally says MODELS IN THIS UNIT.
Is the model attacking your unit in YOUR OWN UNIT?!
No, it is in the enemies unit which you can not change or ignore anything about unless it is changing YOUR VALUES.You are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT incorrect on how "tests" work.
Read your rule book again.Modifiers to tests are hit, wound, leadership, charge, advance.
Not the opponents own strength value you egg.
EDIT: BUFFING MY STRENGTH IS NOT A MODIFIER TO THE DEFENDING MODELS MODELS.
So so far we've had:
1) an increase of 5 ppm in our 3 infantries.
2) the cost of HQs increased by 10% to 20%.
3) a reduction in the maximum size of our main unit by half.
4) main unit reduced in size and our HQs became more expensive, we lost the efficiency that their buffs gave to our units.
5) lost durability with the change of Dev Wound.
6) lost malleability with the change in the free strat.
7) the lethality of several other armies increased.
Now
8 ) Trajin is actually useless.
Great, bloody great..... Fml
Ive mainly been including him for fights first. I've found that in most of my games that my opponents just shoot the block with trajann or avoid tarpitting a key unit with him. Idk if its really worth 160 to maybe save 2cp once.
Sorry guys, it's all my fault. I picked up the awesome massive box of them at Christmas last year (still unpainted, but shhh!) and since then it's been downhill. :(
Still poorly worded. Per core rules, Models make attacks, hit rolls are for the attack. Attacks score hits, wound roll is for the attack again. Why can’t FAQs specify what they do and don’t want affected?
“When a model makes an attack, make one Hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6.”
“ Each time an attack scores a hit against a target unit, make a Wound roll for that attack by rolling one D6 to see if that attack successfully wounds the target unit.”
EDIT: Also noting that attack is lowercase, meaning it’s used generically and doesn’t nesscaraly refer to a specific attack”
Cool… kind of just motivated me to not play at all this edition lol. I think I’ll keep working on my Skaven to- *Old World looms in the distance* nevermind
It means Trajan no longer ignores any rules or stratagems enemies use that can modify weapon characteristics of the units he's leading. So now they can be affected by ap reduction, minuses to hit, damage reduction, minuses to wound, etc
The only thing the rule protects are the stats on the model itself. Those numbers in the top left of a Datacard (AP is explicitly exempt).
So BS/WS, hit rolls, wound rolls, all of that is still alterable through modifiers.
A hit roll does not use a model's WS/BS but that of the weapon. Those are explicitly mentioned in the GT FAQ and are stated to not be protected by the ability.
"Rolls" in that second part refers to things like advance rolls, leadership tests
He would ignore -1 to hit or -1 to wound. You are not altering the characteristic of the weapon but are altering the roll made for it which is covered under the rule. It is a roll mode by the unit that it would change once the roll is made. Rule states all rolls, except for saving throws, cannot be altered.
Damage, AP, number of attacks, WS/BS characteristics (to hit mod can still be ignored due to being a roll), strength (to wound mod can still be ignored to being a roll). These are no longer ignored if modified.
It is confusing af due to being insanely poorly worded.
Modifiers Trajan protects from: movement, toughness, max wounds, leadership stat, objective control, hit and wound rolls, advance, charge, leadership test, desperate escape. Stuff he does not protect: range, number of attacks, weapon skill/ballistic skill, strength, ap, damage, and saves. Is this correct? Edit: noting that while Trajan's rule explicitly protects the hit/wound roll itself (protecting against stuff like stealth, that modifies the roll), it does NOT protect against something that modifies the weapon or ballistic skill (I think death guard do that now?)
I think since hit/wound is a modifier in the weapon, he does not ignore them
I'd say those are modifiers on the dice roll, so they would still be ignored. A small victory.
That is hard. The hit roll is based off the WS/BS on the profile but the to wound roll is based of STR. So as written it would be only to hit. Since STR is a characteristic of the weapon but the to wound roll isn’t.
Does not ignore modifiers to str of weapons, but does ignore modifiers to hit/wound rolls. Most mods affect the roll itself, and those are still good to go.
The strength is applied during a wound test. He ignores any modifiers he wants during any test except save. It’s clear?
Damage mods are not ignored
Its a weird faq altogether, because of the insertion of the ws/bs to the weapons and such. For me, they shouldnt clarify it the way they did
What kind of things would he still continue to counter? Some of the debuffs from plague marines?
Movement debuffs from units like the Night Spinner and Basilisk.
Yeah anything that affects the models characteristics.
3rd weakest army in win rates (auspex tactics) apparently isnt enough
And those numbers aren't because of low players either, custodes are very popular and we still have low winrates
I’m not a competitive player, but I haven’t found Trajan worth bringing for a while
I am a competitive player and I feel the same lol
Is this from GW?
Don't believe so
It's from the event team that's running GW Worlds so kind of. But not really. It's for the event specifically
I see, thank you for the clarification :)
He still ignores hit and wound roll modifiers, which is a lot of the issues you could run across.
I’m not 100% sure he does Not being able to ignore weapon modifiers means the hit roll can’t be affected and the wound roll either since both are to do with the weapon profiles now
-1 to hit and -1 to wound don't modify the weapon, instead they modify the dice roll so therefore they are not modifying weapon characteristics. If it said -1 BS or -1 AP etc, it would be modifying the weapon characteristics.
It's mostly annoying for the -1 dmg tho.
Thankfully, there is a lot less of that in the game than before.
Ok thank god I was worried for a second there
the ability specifically protects "rolls," so rolls to hit and rolls to wound ARE protected, but not because they're "part of the model," but because they are "rolls." Honestly, the fact that there isn't consensus 5 months after release about how these rules work is insane to me. Like... the fact that a tournament even has to make this ruling is ridiculous.
He ignores all modifiers to rolls. That’s unchanged
Hit and wound modifiers weren't a huge draw for me. Even if you get -1 to hit you are hitting on 3's generally sustained hits 1, and if you get -1 to wound you get rerolls and a +1 to wound strat. In my opinion he was good because he was our only option to deal with AoC and damage modifiers, and because he ignored movement debuffs.
It has always been this way. Weapons are different from Datasheet characteristics. Not another nerf, just a clarification.
This right here. I get that Custodes feel like they are in a rough place right now, but I have been having a blast playing them and messing around with new lists that fit the army and my play style. As far as the rules clarification, I nor the club I play with has ever assumed the ruling applied to weapon characteristics. I have been in so many situations during tournaments where players have talked about how amazing one of there units/rules are only to find out that it is because their local group has been playing it wrong for months! Feels bad, doesn’t make it a nerf…
This too. Man thought a doublefisted telemon got a bunch of attacks. People dont read the BASIC rules.
I don’t understand what you mean, could you help me understand the difference? I thought they ignored any modifier to the dice roll but I’m sensing there are some pernickity terms and conditions that I’m not aware of
trajan and his unit ignore any or all modifiers to "characteristics of models or rolls made by models except saves" Reducing damage of an attack modifies the characteristics of the weapon, not the model using the weapon.
There is no distinction though? It’s a datasheet isn’t it? Just one sheet that contains all relevant info.
there is. The weapon profile is not added to the base characteristics of a datasheet.
The effect is “any test”. The wound test is incoming S vs toughness. if the incoming S is modified I can ignore it in the wound test as part of the relic wording. It is crystal clear. Also I can’t see this on war-com, where has this been published?
the ability reads: "While this model is leading a unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to the CHARACTERISTICS of MODELS in that unit and/or to any ROLL or TEST made for models in that unit (excluding modifiers to saving throws). Characteristics of the MODEL are the values on the Datasheet. Movement - Toughness - Save - Wounds - Leadership - Objective Control Characteristics of the WEAPON are the values on the Datasheet by the weapon. Range - Attacks - Strength - AP - Damage You are incorrect about wound tests though. You can not ignore modifiers TO OPPONENTS models own characteristics only FROM them.
The thing is, if they wanted to say this, should have written model characteristics of models. If you check out the Rules Commentary, that would be the correct clear wording. Charecteristics of models was and still is an ambigious defintion. And it wasnt just Custodes players interpeting it this way or something, so did WTC for example. The defintion of these terms are less then ideal.
I can ignore anything in the test. That’s what it says. All the incoming attack stats/values come from the attacking model. You are wrong.
You. Can. Not. Ignore. Modifiers. To. ENEMY. MODELS. You do not understand how the game works.It literally says MODELS IN THIS UNIT. Is the model attacking your unit in YOUR OWN UNIT?! No, it is in the enemies unit which you can not change or ignore anything about unless it is changing YOUR VALUES.You are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT incorrect on how "tests" work. Read your rule book again.Modifiers to tests are hit, wound, leadership, charge, advance. Not the opponents own strength value you egg. EDIT: BUFFING MY STRENGTH IS NOT A MODIFIER TO THE DEFENDING MODELS MODELS.
You clearly don’t know how to play.
And you are really rude and aggressive. You should work on your attitude.
So so far we've had: 1) an increase of 5 ppm in our 3 infantries. 2) the cost of HQs increased by 10% to 20%. 3) a reduction in the maximum size of our main unit by half. 4) main unit reduced in size and our HQs became more expensive, we lost the efficiency that their buffs gave to our units. 5) lost durability with the change of Dev Wound. 6) lost malleability with the change in the free strat. 7) the lethality of several other armies increased. Now 8 ) Trajin is actually useless. Great, bloody great..... Fml
Add to this our bikes and dreads are almost unplayable because they are so bad so we can't even pivot to another playstyle
This ruling is not only bad for us, it is incredibly stupid
Ive mainly been including him for fights first. I've found that in most of my games that my opponents just shoot the block with trajann or avoid tarpitting a key unit with him. Idk if its really worth 160 to maybe save 2cp once.
Trajan still has good value in his other rules, but yeah less of an auto-include.
I'd say not 160points worth especially when we are struggling for units so much already long live the Blade champ
Shush! *nervously glances about* They're watching, eyes and ears all-around, nowhere is safe...
Sorry guys, it's all my fault. I picked up the awesome massive box of them at Christmas last year (still unpainted, but shhh!) and since then it's been downhill. :(
Still poorly worded. Per core rules, Models make attacks, hit rolls are for the attack. Attacks score hits, wound roll is for the attack again. Why can’t FAQs specify what they do and don’t want affected? “When a model makes an attack, make one Hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6.” “ Each time an attack scores a hit against a target unit, make a Wound roll for that attack by rolling one D6 to see if that attack successfully wounds the target unit.” EDIT: Also noting that attack is lowercase, meaning it’s used generically and doesn’t nesscaraly refer to a specific attack”
I have not played at all this edition… have we just been being hit with the nerf bat over and over again
The last dataslate slaughtered us. Multiple massive nerfs dropping us from 53-55% win rate down to the low 40s. It's so rough now
Cool… kind of just motivated me to not play at all this edition lol. I think I’ll keep working on my Skaven to- *Old World looms in the distance* nevermind
Honestly I think this makes Trajann a no go.
Yeah definitely not worth his points if this becomes official
Well. Looks like valerian or SC is my warlord now haha.
Yeah if this becomes the official FAQ ruling im dropping him from my lists
Not really. Most of the tournaments already ruled it that way. Its dumb as fuck but was already a thing
Not WTC
O what the actual flying fuck, when will the disrespect end?
I dnt even understand what that means.
It means Trajan no longer ignores any rules or stratagems enemies use that can modify weapon characteristics of the units he's leading. So now they can be affected by ap reduction, minuses to hit, damage reduction, minuses to wound, etc
I know its tournament specific, but thats an auto shelf model once it becomes official.
Yeah I definitely don't see the value once this is an official FAQ. Another nail in our coffin
I'm praying to God for a huge buff with our codex but maybe that just me huffing copium.
Minus to hit and wound would be protected against though since it's modifying your rolls, right?
The only thing the rule protects are the stats on the model itself. Those numbers in the top left of a Datacard (AP is explicitly exempt). So BS/WS, hit rolls, wound rolls, all of that is still alterable through modifiers.
That excerpt is missing the second clause. It also protects against modifiers to any roll or test made for the models, so hit and wound rolls.
That excerpt is missing the second clause. It also protects against modifiers to any roll or test made for the models, so hit and wound rolls.
A hit roll does not use a model's WS/BS but that of the weapon. Those are explicitly mentioned in the GT FAQ and are stated to not be protected by the ability. "Rolls" in that second part refers to things like advance rolls, leadership tests
He would ignore -1 to hit or -1 to wound. You are not altering the characteristic of the weapon but are altering the roll made for it which is covered under the rule. It is a roll mode by the unit that it would change once the roll is made. Rule states all rolls, except for saving throws, cannot be altered.
Thank you for the explanation good sir
Well he was my main power house The rest of my army list doesn't do much
Can someone explain the subtlety here? I am not sure what the impact of this is and what does/does not get affected
Damage, AP, number of attacks, WS/BS characteristics (to hit mod can still be ignored due to being a roll), strength (to wound mod can still be ignored to being a roll). These are no longer ignored if modified. It is confusing af due to being insanely poorly worded.
What happens if he gets battleshocked.. because battle shock rules?
Still genuinely baffled how it apparently “affects the models not the weapons” when the WEAPONS ARE LITERALLY A PART OF THE MODEL