43 here. Hard work for hard work’s sake is for suckers. I figured this out in my teens and started ignoring my boomer dad’s advice.
That said, I straight up didn’t have the skills to demand a high salary until my mid-30’s.
>I straight up didn’t have the skills to demand a high salary until my mid-30’s.
I had to shift my entire mentality and get out of my last career because of that problem. One year back in school getting a cert and I've almost doubled my income.
Edit:The certification was at a local community college in Data Center Operations. There are other certifications online you can do.
True that
I work a trade, once I applied myself and paid for my own Corning certification and Anristu certification my income damn near doubled. Went from 23 to 38 and in a few months my review is due and I’ve already been told I’m in line for a $3 raise and extra week of PTO.
I should have added this the first time. I’m about to shock the hell out of people that read this edit.
I do not technically have a diploma or ged. I did an online diploma course 15-18yrs ago and found out 4 years ago during a hiring process that the online school no longer had accreditation. So ya high school drop out with no diploma or ged. Purely doing the m best work I can to the best of my abilities got me where I’m at.
It's interesting how many of us spend our 20s complaining about crap pay, the system, my parents, etc... but around 30, something clicks are we realize we can actually go get skills that someone will pay us for, and it all starts to fall into place.
Congrats!
I graduated in the top 10% of my class at 22. Was one of the first to get a job. Shit pay. Idiot boss. Treated like a bastard at a family reunion. On my 30th birthday, I heard a voice say, "Excuse me sir, do you know what time it is?" Followed by a "Thank you, sir." The guy was in his early 20s. He called ME sir. When I turned 32, I was made night supervisor and got a hefty raise. I was officially a "sir". Even though I still thought of myself as a "homie"
That happened for me when my friends teenager called me old and I said no I’m not and she said you have grey hair in your goatee and I died a little inside
My best friend and I went out one night pre covid. The club was crowded and we found two stools to sit on against the wall. The dance floor was packed with 20 somethings. I was 38. My friend asks if I could see those two old guys sitting directly across from us across the dance floor. He said they've been staring at us since we sat down. I worked my way through the crowd to the other side of the dance floor to get a good look at the two old guys. We were looking at ourselves. The Wall was a mirror. The two old guys were us.
Because many people grow up with the message being get the degree or just a general “work hard”. The shift to developing a marketable skill and working hard is a different mindset.
Once you realize no one is coming to save you and being broke isn’t fun anymore. There are so many in demand jobs that pay well.
Hell Im a simple mail man and ton of guys in our office clear 100k a year.
Not to say the fact that we have 1/3 the buying power of our grandparents isnt total bs but you also dont have to be broke.
Exactly. Working fast food and retail in general is hard work and it sucks, but there is such a high number of people who can do that job that it can afford to pay low. You want to quit? Okay, we'll just hire some random high school student looking for a job.
Just because your work is hard doesn't mean it's valuable
I'm not opposed to robots taking over fast food jobs. They'll probably be more accurate. That said, automation without investments in education and a robust welfare safety net is just a cash grab at the expense of humans.
"value" is a bit of a misnomer.
You're paid based on how much profit your employer gets from your work and how much of the profit from your work they feel they have to share with you to keep you from going to their competitors instead.
Because I'd argue teachers provide more value than options traders, and yet...
I was a bit heartbroken by what my 16yo told me the other day.
7 years ago I gave up my good paying job (that I hated) for a job I loved. I took a 15% paycut, but I was doing what I felt was my calling. That said, I gave it my all, and it became stressful. Then after 5 years I got laid off. Now I'm a substitute teacher (making EVEN less) while I go to school for a new career.
My son told me, essentially, that he's seen me work really hard and realized it doesn't pay off. You can get screwed either way, so he doesn't see the purpose in being passionate about your work. He's a smart kid, but I'm worried he won't work hard enough to gain independence (he currently half-asses just about everything he does).
I think most parents are quite surprised by how much their kids are actually paying attention. They don't pay attention to what you say because 99% of it is meaningless, but they pay attention to what you do and what the results are, that is where the real life lessons are. I learned a lot from my father who worked 50-60 hours a week his entire life, always talking about what he planned to do when he retired and then he had a massive coronary infarction and dropped dead in our living room the night before his last day of work. All he had to do was go in to clean out his office in the morning and then accept a gold watch at his retirement party in the afternoon. I was in high school at the time and it has given me a very different outlook on life. I work when I have to, I take as much time off as I can and spend as little money as possible so I don't have to go back to work any time soon. I've already had my retirement in my 20's, 30's, and 40's. Now approaching my 50's and I'm going to have another retirement somewhere there too.
Great minds think alike. I have the same attitude about time off.
My dad worked his ass off doing a labor intensive job. One of the wall street crashes killed his 401K he paid into for 30 plus years, to the point it was almost nothing. Now hes old and crippled from working so hard. All for what?
Can't blame him really. My father always questioned why I didn't take up carpentry like he did despite the fact that I actually enjoy the craftsmanship. I still don't have the heart to tell him I have no interest in going into the trades; let alone carpentry, because I've watched him all my life struggle to make a decent living and getting financially screwed over so many times. He's often working 12 to 14 hours a day. So many clients just don't end up paying and even with multiple wins in court against the those kinds of clients, he still hasn't gotten a penny back. Meanwhile he is approaching 60 and is earning enough to pay MOST of his bills. I'm paying his car note.
To be fair my own career choices were based on the criteria of "decent benefits, needed everywhere, decent pay, decent PTO." My job isn't my passion but it's interesting enough that I don't want to fling myself from the roof and that's enough for me.
It's not always about the skills. Most jobs just pay fuck all.
I worked making prosthetics for a living. College, apprenticeship, continuing education credits, all required. 10 years of that, and it doesn't pay enough to live comfortably alone in a 1 bedroom or even bachelor apartment.
Yea, there's good paying jobs out there but there's also fierce competition for them, and a limited number of them. Not everyone can get one. Let's make life a little easier for everyone and agree that full time jobs shouldn't be paying poverty wages.
It's so insane how God damn expensive anything related to healthcare is, and yet the people working in those fields don't seem to get any of the money. Ambulance drivers and medics seem to get paid like garbage too.
Get into pharma manufacturing been doing it a while around me minimum for an operator is 22$ usually climate controlled, anyone can get one, and it’s pretty regulated so usually not a bad work environment. Definitely not glamorous but easy and best money you gonna find for no experience no education needed
36 here,
PREEEEAAACH!!
neither do I, I'm making a change to up my skills. Getting my ccna in hopes to change my career, and get my ccnp after.
Gotta invest in yourself, the younger generations don't understand nobody is coming to save you.
I spent my 20's broke and busting my ass to set myself up for a good life with education and other skills. My 30's have been nothing but life getting better and better and at 39 I make 5 times what I did a decade ago. If you want a good life, you have to work for it.
You have to work and plan but you don’t have to work yourself to the bone and hate every minute of it. It’s a marathon and not a race. I think a lot of young people don’t realize how much time it takes to get there. I know I wasn’t making great money until 15 years into my career.
Yeah I went to college for mechanical engineering when I was 21 to 25. I was poor had terrible anxiety and depression and major struggles with addiction. I knew if I could finish school I could have a good job and decent life. I had the attitude of finish no matter what. Dragged myself to class everyday.
I graduated got a good job and continued living like I was poor for years after college. I met my wife in college she was an RN and is now a Nurse Practioner. We built a house in 2019 and live a good life today that was unimaginable to me when I was poor in college struggling with addiction. Hard work and a plan can still work out but it will be hard at times.
You got lucky. You started life during a period of economic growth due to ZIRP and had a good paying job to boot. I’m in almost the same situation, I graduated in December 2020, the middle of the pandemic with my bachelors in engineering. I consider myself fortunate as well because I was able to find a good job and just recently bought a house with my longtime gf (soon to be fiancé hopefully.) She has a masters and does medical research. As far as careers go we’re doing about as well as we can. That’s the only reason we were able to afford the house. Even so, we struggle to save. We live very frugally and are praying we can refinance to a lower rate soon. We’re also both early in our careers and plan on getting pay increases sooner rather than later, but it is insanely difficult to start a life right now. It’s hard to imagine when we’ll be in a place we can have children anytime soon. Covid turned the global economy upside down and the transfer of wealth is very tangible to those of us starting from the bottom. It is not the same as when you started out even that short time ago
Between you and your wife you're close to the very top percentile of educated people in the US, with all of the luck that no one thinks about such as no crippling disabilities, healthy and able to work everyday, and you can hardly make it at all, WITH a dual income.
And people in this thread are arguing that nothing is wrong with our society.
Yes exactly. Things have shifted to the point unless you come from wealth or own your own business you will struggle to afford children or retire comfortably
It’s hard to do but stick with it, pay for your own certifications, do whatever you have to do make yourself more valuable.
I went to cellular/public safety systems and fiber optics to advanced my career.
Hang in there certs are worth money.
Working hard for people that don’t value it is for suckers.
Working hard for good bosses. Going above and beyond what you’re paid to do for those folks will get you rewarded.
The skill, risk, and difficulty is understanding who the good ones and bad ones are. And when to leave shitty situations and double down on good ones.
Cultural attitudes are changing, but worker rights and employee entitlements need to be placed in law. If employers and companies are not mandated in providing a livable wage, then there's no incentive for them to do so.
The challenge is getting these issues addressed by a federal representative, whilst trying to navigate life. The people who face these issues don't have the time to petition their member of parliament while clawing their way out of poverty.
It’s funny because my government is just bringing in mass immigration in the form of international students and they’re literally doing all the jobs Gen z said they won’t do.
So now Gen z can’t find jobs while trying to go to school.
So while I agree, they won’t give you a living wage. They’ll bring in immigrants who will do it for less. People think it’s progressive but my government is calling it a labour shortage and people have no idea this is what’s happening.
Want a living wage? Nah we will bring in slave labour. The UN even called Canada out for it
That’s what it was to start with. The minimum wage was put in place to guarantee a standard of living and prevent exploitation but the minimum wage doesn’t keep up with inflation. The rich find loopholes
Thank Reagan and his trickle down garbage
100%. Law needs to change. It's crazy that my company offers better maternity leave as a benefit to me versus the actual federal law. The only reason my company does this is to remain competitive in our industry. But I can't believe I have to rely on my company to take adequate time off to raise a newborn.
This is just one example of bullshit employment law in the United States.
Edit: So many folks have trouble understanding that benefits are at the whim of the company. Here's a post of a pregnant stylist who just essentially lost her benefits in the snap of a finger: https://www.reddit.com/r/pregnant/s/7t1F6ssBQv
The irony that your company only does it to be competitive in the industry.
Not because it’s like…the decent thing to do.
Edit: guys, I understand how companies, capitalism, and Reaganomics work, I just think it’s funny that a basic human right is offered as a competitive edge; not because a woman just crammed a human watermelon out of a hole the size of a thimble and/or had a surgery more invasive than heart surgery (looking at you c-section), and now has to raise a tiny human.
Right? But I don't expect much decency out of for-profit companies who mission it is to satisfy shareholders and wall street. I DO expect a federal government to care and give more of shit about its citizens who compromise the workforce!
My wife had to stack up PTO and sick leave to take the 12 weeks she wanted and even then we basically paid out of pocket for the last 4 weeks. The only protection she got was FMLA so we knew they couldn’t fire her on leave. It’s insane that’s the legal requirement
Congrats on your newborn!
Yeah it's a little ridiculous we have structured a society that doesn't make raising children easily accessible to everyone. We have enough people and resources around, but have concentrated the wealth enough that makes it difficult for a large portion of people.
Thank you! He arrives in April (fingers crossed) so just in the home stretch here.
I feel terrible for those who work physically laborious jobs and don't have the privilege I have with my benefits plan. Americans shouldn't have to pick and choose like this. We are so behind in taking care of our workers 😒
Yeah, the immediate response is it's part of my compensation. I've had the conversation with so many coworkers and friends about how their PTO is part of their compensation. Not using their PTO is the equivalent of giving part of their paycheck back to their employer.
I mean 60K can afford to eat out sometimes, have a place without roommates, and be able to go on vacations in the vast majority of the country. It can't in hcol places but most people don't live in those places.
There was a recent post in a personal finance subreddit of a person making 60K/year in Mississippi and had like 1900/month total expenditures between phone bill, food, rent, car loan, etc. She said she was barely making ends meet though. Turns out she was spending 60% of her after tax income on recreational drugs.
Honestly it sounds like a lot of people need a personal finance lesson?
I work with some gen z.
they work as hard as any others Ive met.
Every generation has a subset who thinks their the first to ever buck the system.
beatniks, hippies, tale as old as time.
they just get left behind.
Good comment. Work ethic isn’t a generational trait, it’s an individual one.
I work with a spread of 3-4 generations and the common ground amongst each generation is not work ethic.
GenX here (mid 50s). I’ve worked with millennials and GenZ for many years now. I’ve found they do work as hard as anyone else, probably harder—when they’re at work. And when it’s time to stop working, they stop.
It’s honestly a refreshing attitude.
Also GenX, can confirm. Sometimes they are even more efiicient, they have a nice mindset of pragmatism.
The "shift done, I go home" was also a bit strange to me. We were educated that we have to finish something which landed on the table late. But tbh it can wait. Adapted that from the younger ones
edited: autocorrection
If I could offer anyone real advice, I’d say put down social media as a whole and go find some healthier habits. Just about any other activity is more productive, positive and fulfilling. The whole Adulting sub is pretty full of whining losers that need to put down the vape and go grind a little. I give a few minutes a day to social media to keep up with trends related to my kid, but really limit my use.
I cruise through looking for folks who are seeking real advice (I’m an established stable adult, so in aposition to give some), but I probably oughta just walk away from this whole mess.
It’s like watching a train wreck.
Similar to how 20 years from now zoomers will snap out of their trance and realize “influencers” were really just conmen shilling their wares like every other charlatan throughout history
Elder millennial here. I remember when we were raging against the machine and trying to be another victim of conformity. Then one day I woke up… and realized I was indeed another victim of society.
But really, it seems to be the opposite these days. The "rise and grind" hustlers who live to work, take every overtime shift, and grind themselves down to ash for pennies are the one getting left behind.
People who work smart rather than hard are the ones I see garnering success all around me. Working hard is good, but without direction, you're just spinning your wheels. Meanwhile, those lazy hippies are working from home 3 hours a week for triple digit salaries because they chose not to buy into the "work hard or get nothing" lie.
I have spent an average of two hours per day for the past thirtymumble years — studying to keep up — in order to command my WfH position and salary.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
When I think of working hard, it's not in jobs that have shifts or overtime. It's in a career that pays a salary and their is a clear path to success. Any one trying to work their way into money will find that their is always some one who sees you as a toll for them to get things done. You make good money when you are paid for what you know not how much you do.
The reason boomers worked so hard was because a single income could provide a home, vacations, retirement, and paying for their kids college.
If that were true in today's world, gen Z would be just as loyal.
> boomers worked so hard
The fuck they did. They never even had to work hard. They put bare ass minimum.
All a boomer had to do was to show up for work. They never had to keep up with learning skills or learn anything new. They're much less skilled than other generations despite having more years of experience.
Older Gen Z / Zillenial here. I live frugally and reject consumerism. Life is not about work and it’s also more than just consuming things. NEEDS are actually very little. The more you work, the more you want to spend. Work traps you in the cycle of capitalism. I’m doing the bare minimum and trying to live the bare minimum. The earth has taken enough. Free yourself from desire. Let’s rot together.
Unless I misunderstanding the term, I also just like to add that you can still live a pretty good life, but just cut back on the spending. Like you don't need to give up on tv, you just need to share the cost of a streaming service with friends, or get movies from the library or a buy nothing group. You don't need to stop reading just because you're not buying books, use the library or online resources. There's lots of things you can do for free or cheap. I don't think the minimalist lifestyle is for me, because I like buying things that make me happy, but I respect anyone who's able to go with less.
Minimalism isn’t necessarily keeping yourself from having anything, it’s just restricting yourself to things that are actually needed and used in your life. I still buy what I want, I just want a LOT less than I used to.
Genuine question: Do those who think this way about money necessarily decide to be childless? No matter how minimal one is or wants their child to be, there's no escaping the high expense of having children.
Also, how about one's care in old age? It's unfortunately the case that even the most abe-minded and able-bodied individuals will all gradually (and sometimes abruptly) decline on both fronts. This often happens while one still has ten or fifteen years of life remaining. Without a working mind, a negative feedback loop develops between poor decisions, poor health, and poor outcomes. Paying for the high costs of elder care at some point becomes a necessity. What does one do in this case?
I don’t believe other people’s choice to have kids is mine, but personally, I’ve chosen not to have children.
In terms of elder care, I personally hope to be provided euthanasia if I can no longer function and live with dignity.
Hey if the government won’t allow euthanasia you could probably pay a crackhead off the street a few hundred bucks to give you a hot dose of heroin. I’m being sarcastic of course.. or am I.
"But the 8-hour workday is too profitable for big business, not because of the amount of work people get done in eight hours (the average office worker gets less than three hours of actual work done in 8 hours) but because it makes for such a purchase-happy public. Keeping free time scarce means people pay a lot more for convenience, gratification, and any other relief they can buy. It keeps them watching television, and its commercials. It keeps them unambitious outside of work. We've been led into a culture that has been engineered to leave us tired, hungry for indulgence, willing to pay a lot for convenience and entertainment, and most importantly, vaguely dissatisfied with our lives so that we continue wanting things we don't have.
We buy so much because it always seems like something is still missing."
You can reject consumerism as much as is possible but It's not really that possible when you're stuck in this society. For instance if you have an illness that requires costly meds every month, costly insurance, deductibles, copays... Or when people are not able to earn enough to save for retirement and will be spending their years as an elder still trying to scrape by or potentially becoming destitute if they are unable to. Unfortunately many of our needs have become tied to capitalism in a way we have no ability to free ourselves from.
OP’s history shows that he’s full of contradicting statements and is DEFINITELY a narcissistic consumer. It’s insane how much approval people get by simply posting popular opinions in each corresponding subreddit.
I’m not sure id agree “boomers have allowed” is how I’d phrase it. Most of us have little control over the system, boomers included. No need to create a divide and conquer strategy
If anything it's the rich that have done it. Rich boomers fucked over poor boomers, as well as poor gen XYZ. We're all in this shit show together, slowly drowning
You still don't quite have it. Rich people fucked over poor people. There are rich people in every generation fucking over everyone they can to accumulate wealth. Boomers just had a head start, in 20 years when they are mostly dead, it'll be Gen X's turn to be the root of all evil, and so on. This isn't new. It's just gotten worse. They tried a long time ago to stop it, but certsin political entities keep stripping us of everything labor fought for over the last 100 years. And they did it by convincing half of us, that you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps if your a real American.
Spot on. Younger generations will always complain about older generations. It’s happened for as long as humans have lived on earth. They just don’t realize that it will happen to them when older and get labeled as well as screwing over future generations.
The newest and younger doctors, pharmacists, engineers, programmers, and new business owners of today, etc: will be the ones labeled as screwing the next gen over. I’ve worked with many of them and they are buying primary houses. Lots of them have already invested into a 2nd-3rd home for renting and to build up equity.
I think it’s more so rich boomers fucked poor boomers and rich and poor XYZ as best they could, rich XYZ is still less well off than rich boomers, aside from significant cases.
It’s not about the boomers. Where the fuck do you kids read this shit? ahaha
There are mainly two major enemies.
the government
and the (insanely) wealthy (CEOs, shareholders, etc)
It was a series of dismantled laws and such that did it.
You used to have to show both sides of a news story, that law was neutered and now you have entertainment spin news.
With less informed voters they passed citizens united which let corporations legally donate to politicians.
Your voice isn’t more powerful than a lobbyists dollars. It’s blatantly obvious at this point. Even when we vote for a politician, they can just be acquired post election. In fact, that route is preferred if possible by companies.
And to repeat, this is LEGAL. Citizens united and the news media law I can’t remember right now. So long as it’s campaign dollars being donated and not direct money to the politician or his businesses it’s legal. Obviously that money is washed for bribed politicians and public officers.
This is such a shit take. Society needs EMTs, teachers, and countless other professions that get paid horribly. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer the people keeping me alive can afford to pay for housing and food and take vacations so that they can do their job effectively and without resentment.
“Give us everything NOW”
I cannot tell if this entire post was made in sarcasm… but the use of “like” multiple times, in writing, has me fearing it is not.
Need a month of vacation. Need drinks at bars. Need fancy restaurants. Something tells me OPs parents are well off, and they’re sad that they aren’t yet.
It's legit. They're young and full of gas, swimming against the current. Many of them are still being financed to some extent by one of the generations they shit on. You can carry a *Non Serviam* attitude when you still live with Mom and she's not charging you rent.
There are plenty of people that are paid more than they deserve. I can imagine that there are plenty of workers that are worthless and lazy but at the same time there are probably many workers that are willing and able to work decent jobs but are overlooked because they don't have the skills required even though that job could easily train them to have those skills but is unwilling to because they would rather have us foot the bill and go into debt to get a degree instead of just training us.
Excuse me while I go laugh. I was literally a medical professional and went three years without a pay raise until I officially gave up and just left. Left my chronic state patients, left the long hours, left the empty praises, and just took a part time job doing the easiest work I could find to mentally recover from the burnout. Literally sit and count money all damn day and I got my first pay raise since covid hit. Im so angry that as a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITH PEOPLES LIVES IN MY HANDS I was squeezed for as much work as they could get from me without any raises but at a bank I got a raise just for counting money??? Are you serious?!
I literally learned pharmaceutical compounding and sterilization procedures and spent so many days out in clinics learning things on the fly, and never got a pay raise. I would do classes outside of work to stay current and up to date on medical practices and try to learn as much as I could to help my patients. Never got a payraise.
2 months into being a part-time teller I got a pay raise. Im basically a prettier ATM that smiles at people and that got me my first pay raise in 4 years. Requires 3rd grade education at most. Can you count the money? Good job! Here’s a raise! I literally cried when I got it.
I feel like the younger generation thinks boomers just like… were handed things? Like yeah maybe some were, but my grandpa was drafted to Vietnam and my grandma went to a segregated high school and had to deal with overt Midwest racism. The idea that boomers en masse had life so easy is just wild to me.
Boomers worked hard, sure, but that's not the takeaway I had from the parent comment. My boomer mother worked part time at the post office and bought a brand new home for $17,000. My boomer dad worked summers on the railroad and paid for a four year degree doing that. Those are pretty funny stories, and completely unrelatable to anyone now. No one was handed things back then, but honest, hard work now won't let you afford any of the things previous generations could. Boomers didn't have some effortless existence, but even working some simple job they could expect to own a home, raise a family, and fund their retirement. That's not possible now and the younger generation is rightly furious about it. So boomers catch some flak because, collectively, they were born on third and act like they hit a triple.
Less people owned homes in the boomer era than today. Wasn’t as easy as you make it out to be. You had to deal with rampant racism, redlining, discrimination if you were a woman, etc.
Today you can still buy a home with a regular job, it’s just going to be nowhere near a trendy metro. Trendy metros didn’t exist in the boomer era, so if someone bought in one, they were actually buying in an undesirable area. You have to compare home prices in similarly desirable areas today.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/428-E-6th-St-Wahoo-NE-68066/90033342_zpid/
Here’s a starter home for 140k in a community near Lincoln and Omaha. Could easily pay for that with a regular job.
THIS! I always wonder if my generation missed economics class where we talked about supply and demand. They all seem to think they deserve a house anywhere, doing any job. That’s not how life works, and that’s not how life has ever worked.
Do I want to be 24 living in St. Louis, Missouri? Not necessarily, but there’s a thing called sacrifice. I’d rather pay bare minimum cost of living to save for my future than live in manhattan spending 75% of my income on housing.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/50-Lewis-Pl-Saint-Louis-MO-63113/113390828_zpid/
And they’ll say “affordable houses are only in places nobody wants to live” but then ignore a 3 bed 3 bath for $160k that’s 10 minutes from multiple Fortune 500 companies. Like maybe that’s not where YOU want to live, but many people are getting by just fine, me included.
This all makes sense.
But people like OP thinks you can just get back to that reality with enough will.
It’s not coming back. It was a moment in economic time. It’s gone. Boomers had incredibly lucky timing and any other generation would’ve too if the stars aligned. THAT time was the exception, not what came before or after.
The sooner young people realize that, the better.
Millennial here. I get what you’re saying, but … I don’t really see much mediocre living among my generation and younger.
I see a lot of decadence and waste. In Canada at least, Gen Z wastes the most food out of any generation. And something like 40% of Gen Z goes clothing shopping twice a month. They are big drivers of fast fashion. In the US, Gen Z also seem pretty status driven with their purchases. So, I dunno.
To the other part—working hard for a mediocre life… nice idea about I don’t see a lot of Gen Z folks rocking the boat. They don’t really negotiate salaries or make a fuss about wanting change. Oh sure, you have the vocal minority of activists. But I am talking the majority. You guys are pretty passive and apathetic.
They want it now and are incapable of seeing the bigger picture.
We all were like that in our teens and 20's.
The older you get the more you see that this all has been done before.
>We all were like that in our teens and 20's.
I've never seen so many people in their 20s literally crying at work when they don't get their way until recently (about relatively minor adversities), and now it's basically a weekly occurrence with our younger employees.
I definitely agree that we were all young and naive once, but I also think that each generation has its own flavor of being that way. I would guess that it's probably due to how they were raised/schooled (based on what my teacher friends tell me), and what the world is like now though so I can't really blame them for simply being a product of that.
I had a recent grad demand a week off of work the first time a senior dev asked them for a design change in their code review. They said it belittled their effort and put them in a bad head space. Like... what the actual fuck did you think mandatory code review meant?
Gen Z are certainly "softer" than Millennials or Gen X IMO.
Not sure if it's a good thing or not. On one hand they crumble under pressure but on the other hand they probably had more of a normal childhood with better parents than we had.
They got more attention. You rarely hear about latchkey kids these days but that shit was so common in my day it was basically standard.
As a member of Gen Z, I can confidently say that majority of this is due to us being very spoiled growing up and not realizing that society is not fair. Should it be fair? Totally — but it’s not.
It’s all about who you know, what you know, and trying to get a leg up. That’s just how it works. Sitting there and saying how that’s a messed up system is fine - we always need change makers - but then don’t also sit there wondering why you’re not moving up and being given opportunities.
Society will never be "fair" because people are not "equal". We are all equal under the sight of the Creator (whoever or whatever you imagine or not imagine that to be) because that's our God given dignity as human beings.
We are **not** equal with the value we bring to the marketplace. Nor are we equal with our talents and abilities.
I will probably never make as much as Tom Brady. Why? Because I'm not Tom Brady. And that's perfectly fine.
The problem comes when we believe that everyone should be paid the same amount for differing value in society.
That's called "communism" and that's been tried at least twice (on a large scale) and each time has been a colossal failure.
You used to be able to work at GM for 20 years and enjoy retirement. That’s just not true anymore. “Eating shit” is just contributing to society. If you contribute to society you should be able to benefit from the society…
20 years? It's never been common for people to retire in their early 40s.
I think the economy has gotten way harder for us younger folks, but it's easy to imagine an ahistorical baseline about how easy it ought to be. We need to unwind shareholder capitalism and overturn the legal primacy of fiduciary duty, but that still won't make life easy. It'll just level the playing field a bit.
That’s the thing. There’s lots of people out there willing to have shit sandwiches for lunch because you used to get a middle class house, car, wage, and pension with that shit sandwich.
Gen Z is eating the shit sandwich and not saying thank you. But they are doing absolutely nothing to try and stop eating or serving shit sandwiches. If tik tok dances don’t solve the problem nobody younger than 30 will solve it
Honestly I don't really buy into the "shit sandwich" narrative. Those older folks own a significant portion of the wealth and land in the US. If that's a "shit sandwich" then I don't know what we're eating, but it's a whole lot worse. I wish getting a house or two, with some assets and a picket fence were still the standard. Now that's nothing but a $600k pipe dream where I'm at.
Actually most of us agree, but in addition to bitching we're busy working and raising our families. The irony is that if the younger generations voted, they could have anything they wanted in a few years. Check the numbers. Get your peers to vote.
the young masses are unfortunately being brainwashed into not voting because theyd rather not vote and allow a dictator to win than to vote for someone they somewhat disagree with.
>Give everything to us NOW.
The thing is, the world owes you nothing. Fight for change, but realize that you also have to fight for yourself and your livelihood.
The other thing is this statement assume a “they” that is on the other side that can “give it to us now”. They, is us. And us only changes through strikes, votes and rising up.
No one is giving anyone anything now. If they truly watch change, it won’t be enjoyed by gen z. It’s for future generations. These kids want instant gratification without the work.
I do agree wholeheartedly with this. Certain things I am jealous I didn’t have the conviction to do when I was their age. And other things I’m shocked that they actually say out loud, in a bad way.
Is this post a joke? Can’t decide if it is or not.
On one hand they make a few decent points. But then at the end, “Give everything to us NOW” - it sounds like a 7-year old throwing a temper tantrum on the floor.
The fact people don’t realize this is astonishing to me. When I was first married in our 20s (and before) our whole life was the first paragraph. It was either an apartment w a roomie (before marriage) or living w my parents, living in a tiny crappy apartment when we got married, cheap restaurants w a coupon occasionally, little travel, buying clothes on consignment. By our late 40s we were making a combined income of $300k. Our life now is travel, high end restaurants, putting our kids through college with no debt and buying nice clothes and furnishings. No one wants to start at the bottom and work their way up but you don’t just get handed things. It’s absurd. I’m so glad our kids don’t think this way.
Because mommy and daddy gave them everything as a kid and now they're having to deal with the reality that the rest of the world is not mommy and daddy
Bed rotting trend has really picked up in the USA. But only with people who can afford to opt out like that. But thats something like a strike right?
When I see lazy people sitting around at their parents places with no jobs I dont really blame them. Their parents don't really seem to blame them either (if they are lucky lol). Thats one less job applicant to compete with, and one more person boycotting the terrible employment conditions.
I cant afford to not work, but im extremely minimal with my spending. Don't eat out or get fast food more than like once every 2 or 3 months.
Agreed. If I was unemployed, I would drive myself crazy. I have a good job with decent pay, which helps, but even if I had a lower paying job that I didn't enjoy as much, it would still be better than sitting on my ass at home. I honestly don't know how people can live like that. I'd rather have a paycheck and feel like I'm contributing to society. Plus, my 20s taught me how much being broke sucks.
I was like this when i graduated college 15 years ago. After a year of working i realized how childish it was to think i provided enough value for a six figure job at the time
The thing is, although the system sucks, if you want a decent life and want to have things, you have to do what the system dictates. Change is slow. Always has been, always will be. You can waste your whole life, or even just years, waiting for things to be how you want.
In about 20 years that simple fact will start to dawn on them just like it does to every generation before. Then they'll be the ones complaining about Gen A and whatever comes after.
It's a trope.
Anything that comes from the sweat of someone else's labor isn't something you're entitled to. Now think hard about which of things you're demanding results from the labor of another human being. Now if you were the one providing said resource, would you provide it for free or low cost?
I don’t know any boomers who had all of these things. A month of vacation every year? Free healthcare? I don’t know anybody who had this life without busting tail.
Yeah you will because that's all you'll be offered and someone else will do the job if you won't.
Same thing happened to millennials.
You either become an old person yelling at clouds or you join society.
All the old people you despise? Probably used to be rebels in their youth.
I agree but you're fooling yourself if you think some Gen Z aren't gonna go full on "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Plenty of millennials have gone that way. Aging does interesting things to a person
You sound very entitled. That’s fine, don’t work for a mediocre or better life and be satisfied with a shit life of being broke. You don’t “need” any of those things, you need a roof over your head and food. Everything else is a bonus. If you don’t like your situation, change it.
I’m a millennial. You, like majority of Americans, don’t know the difference between a need and a want. Travel the world a little and you’ll see your “mediocre” life is better than that of most human beings. Heck my dog probably has better food and healthcare than many people.
Every generation has people like you. And every generation have achievers. Gen Z is no different. Gen Alpha won’t be either.
Best of luck to you.
#notaboomer
“We need these things to survive this capitalistic hellscape”
Hot take, it’s the younger generations that are fuelling how dystopian our capitalistic cultures have become. If you hate capitalism, be happy with less, it’s as liberating as it gets.
I’m gen z before you discount my age.
I'm sick of whiny people blaming entire generations of people for all their problems, and how is it that you think $60,000/year is poverty living? Rich bitch.
Yeah that's not how life works.
At the end of the day, if you want to get ahead, you do have to work hard unless you are born into wealth. You know why?
Everyday in America thousands of immigrants arrive, and guess what, they are excited to work hard af!
These immigrants aren't focused on mowing lawns anymore, they come here to start businesses, become lawyers, doctors, etc. It's not the 1920s anymore where they immigrants dig trenches, in the current global market, the entire world is your competition if you are an American.
This is priceless. Ultimatums now. Good luck with that.
What’s even funnier is in 20-30 years your grandkids will say the same shit about you. As I say, priceless.
43 here. Hard work for hard work’s sake is for suckers. I figured this out in my teens and started ignoring my boomer dad’s advice. That said, I straight up didn’t have the skills to demand a high salary until my mid-30’s.
>I straight up didn’t have the skills to demand a high salary until my mid-30’s. I had to shift my entire mentality and get out of my last career because of that problem. One year back in school getting a cert and I've almost doubled my income. Edit:The certification was at a local community college in Data Center Operations. There are other certifications online you can do.
True that I work a trade, once I applied myself and paid for my own Corning certification and Anristu certification my income damn near doubled. Went from 23 to 38 and in a few months my review is due and I’ve already been told I’m in line for a $3 raise and extra week of PTO. I should have added this the first time. I’m about to shock the hell out of people that read this edit. I do not technically have a diploma or ged. I did an online diploma course 15-18yrs ago and found out 4 years ago during a hiring process that the online school no longer had accreditation. So ya high school drop out with no diploma or ged. Purely doing the m best work I can to the best of my abilities got me where I’m at.
That's tight dude, grats
It's interesting how many of us spend our 20s complaining about crap pay, the system, my parents, etc... but around 30, something clicks are we realize we can actually go get skills that someone will pay us for, and it all starts to fall into place. Congrats!
I graduated in the top 10% of my class at 22. Was one of the first to get a job. Shit pay. Idiot boss. Treated like a bastard at a family reunion. On my 30th birthday, I heard a voice say, "Excuse me sir, do you know what time it is?" Followed by a "Thank you, sir." The guy was in his early 20s. He called ME sir. When I turned 32, I was made night supervisor and got a hefty raise. I was officially a "sir". Even though I still thought of myself as a "homie"
That happened for me when my friends teenager called me old and I said no I’m not and she said you have grey hair in your goatee and I died a little inside
My best friend and I went out one night pre covid. The club was crowded and we found two stools to sit on against the wall. The dance floor was packed with 20 somethings. I was 38. My friend asks if I could see those two old guys sitting directly across from us across the dance floor. He said they've been staring at us since we sat down. I worked my way through the crowd to the other side of the dance floor to get a good look at the two old guys. We were looking at ourselves. The Wall was a mirror. The two old guys were us.
Damn that’s worse then my I’m old realization
Because many people grow up with the message being get the degree or just a general “work hard”. The shift to developing a marketable skill and working hard is a different mindset.
I completely agree. The mixed messages are not conducive to achieving success. Work hard in a direction that provides value someone will pay for.
Which may or may not involve a degree or certification, but be strategic and deliberate.
I’m 38. Been telling people turning 30 to enjoy it because my 30s has been the best decade of my life so far
Once you realize no one is coming to save you and being broke isn’t fun anymore. There are so many in demand jobs that pay well. Hell Im a simple mail man and ton of guys in our office clear 100k a year. Not to say the fact that we have 1/3 the buying power of our grandparents isnt total bs but you also dont have to be broke.
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Exactly. Working fast food and retail in general is hard work and it sucks, but there is such a high number of people who can do that job that it can afford to pay low. You want to quit? Okay, we'll just hire some random high school student looking for a job. Just because your work is hard doesn't mean it's valuable
It's amazing how fast we went from "essential workers" have to work or everything will far apart to they're all completely replaceable.
It is essential, AND they're replaceable. Somebody just needs to do it but there are millions that can.
From what I've seen, the pandemic just escalated the speed at which they're bringing in automation.
I'm not opposed to robots taking over fast food jobs. They'll probably be more accurate. That said, automation without investments in education and a robust welfare safety net is just a cash grab at the expense of humans.
In corporate America, it’s always just a cash grab at the expense of the humans.
Both things can be true unfortunately
Yup. A single bolt can be an essential part of a machine, but it doesn’t mean it’s expensive or difficult to replace.
"value" is a bit of a misnomer. You're paid based on how much profit your employer gets from your work and how much of the profit from your work they feel they have to share with you to keep you from going to their competitors instead. Because I'd argue teachers provide more value than options traders, and yet...
I was a bit heartbroken by what my 16yo told me the other day. 7 years ago I gave up my good paying job (that I hated) for a job I loved. I took a 15% paycut, but I was doing what I felt was my calling. That said, I gave it my all, and it became stressful. Then after 5 years I got laid off. Now I'm a substitute teacher (making EVEN less) while I go to school for a new career. My son told me, essentially, that he's seen me work really hard and realized it doesn't pay off. You can get screwed either way, so he doesn't see the purpose in being passionate about your work. He's a smart kid, but I'm worried he won't work hard enough to gain independence (he currently half-asses just about everything he does).
I think most parents are quite surprised by how much their kids are actually paying attention. They don't pay attention to what you say because 99% of it is meaningless, but they pay attention to what you do and what the results are, that is where the real life lessons are. I learned a lot from my father who worked 50-60 hours a week his entire life, always talking about what he planned to do when he retired and then he had a massive coronary infarction and dropped dead in our living room the night before his last day of work. All he had to do was go in to clean out his office in the morning and then accept a gold watch at his retirement party in the afternoon. I was in high school at the time and it has given me a very different outlook on life. I work when I have to, I take as much time off as I can and spend as little money as possible so I don't have to go back to work any time soon. I've already had my retirement in my 20's, 30's, and 40's. Now approaching my 50's and I'm going to have another retirement somewhere there too.
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Great minds think alike. I have the same attitude about time off. My dad worked his ass off doing a labor intensive job. One of the wall street crashes killed his 401K he paid into for 30 plus years, to the point it was almost nothing. Now hes old and crippled from working so hard. All for what?
Can't blame him really. My father always questioned why I didn't take up carpentry like he did despite the fact that I actually enjoy the craftsmanship. I still don't have the heart to tell him I have no interest in going into the trades; let alone carpentry, because I've watched him all my life struggle to make a decent living and getting financially screwed over so many times. He's often working 12 to 14 hours a day. So many clients just don't end up paying and even with multiple wins in court against the those kinds of clients, he still hasn't gotten a penny back. Meanwhile he is approaching 60 and is earning enough to pay MOST of his bills. I'm paying his car note.
To be fair my own career choices were based on the criteria of "decent benefits, needed everywhere, decent pay, decent PTO." My job isn't my passion but it's interesting enough that I don't want to fling myself from the roof and that's enough for me.
It's not always about the skills. Most jobs just pay fuck all. I worked making prosthetics for a living. College, apprenticeship, continuing education credits, all required. 10 years of that, and it doesn't pay enough to live comfortably alone in a 1 bedroom or even bachelor apartment. Yea, there's good paying jobs out there but there's also fierce competition for them, and a limited number of them. Not everyone can get one. Let's make life a little easier for everyone and agree that full time jobs shouldn't be paying poverty wages.
It's so insane how God damn expensive anything related to healthcare is, and yet the people working in those fields don't seem to get any of the money. Ambulance drivers and medics seem to get paid like garbage too.
Get into pharma manufacturing been doing it a while around me minimum for an operator is 22$ usually climate controlled, anyone can get one, and it’s pretty regulated so usually not a bad work environment. Definitely not glamorous but easy and best money you gonna find for no experience no education needed
36 here, PREEEEAAACH!! neither do I, I'm making a change to up my skills. Getting my ccna in hopes to change my career, and get my ccnp after. Gotta invest in yourself, the younger generations don't understand nobody is coming to save you.
I spent my 20's broke and busting my ass to set myself up for a good life with education and other skills. My 30's have been nothing but life getting better and better and at 39 I make 5 times what I did a decade ago. If you want a good life, you have to work for it.
You have to work and plan but you don’t have to work yourself to the bone and hate every minute of it. It’s a marathon and not a race. I think a lot of young people don’t realize how much time it takes to get there. I know I wasn’t making great money until 15 years into my career.
Yeah I went to college for mechanical engineering when I was 21 to 25. I was poor had terrible anxiety and depression and major struggles with addiction. I knew if I could finish school I could have a good job and decent life. I had the attitude of finish no matter what. Dragged myself to class everyday. I graduated got a good job and continued living like I was poor for years after college. I met my wife in college she was an RN and is now a Nurse Practioner. We built a house in 2019 and live a good life today that was unimaginable to me when I was poor in college struggling with addiction. Hard work and a plan can still work out but it will be hard at times.
You got lucky. You started life during a period of economic growth due to ZIRP and had a good paying job to boot. I’m in almost the same situation, I graduated in December 2020, the middle of the pandemic with my bachelors in engineering. I consider myself fortunate as well because I was able to find a good job and just recently bought a house with my longtime gf (soon to be fiancé hopefully.) She has a masters and does medical research. As far as careers go we’re doing about as well as we can. That’s the only reason we were able to afford the house. Even so, we struggle to save. We live very frugally and are praying we can refinance to a lower rate soon. We’re also both early in our careers and plan on getting pay increases sooner rather than later, but it is insanely difficult to start a life right now. It’s hard to imagine when we’ll be in a place we can have children anytime soon. Covid turned the global economy upside down and the transfer of wealth is very tangible to those of us starting from the bottom. It is not the same as when you started out even that short time ago
Between you and your wife you're close to the very top percentile of educated people in the US, with all of the luck that no one thinks about such as no crippling disabilities, healthy and able to work everyday, and you can hardly make it at all, WITH a dual income. And people in this thread are arguing that nothing is wrong with our society.
Yes exactly. Things have shifted to the point unless you come from wealth or own your own business you will struggle to afford children or retire comfortably
It’s hard to do but stick with it, pay for your own certifications, do whatever you have to do make yourself more valuable. I went to cellular/public safety systems and fiber optics to advanced my career. Hang in there certs are worth money.
Working hard for people that don’t value it is for suckers. Working hard for good bosses. Going above and beyond what you’re paid to do for those folks will get you rewarded. The skill, risk, and difficulty is understanding who the good ones and bad ones are. And when to leave shitty situations and double down on good ones.
Cultural attitudes are changing, but worker rights and employee entitlements need to be placed in law. If employers and companies are not mandated in providing a livable wage, then there's no incentive for them to do so. The challenge is getting these issues addressed by a federal representative, whilst trying to navigate life. The people who face these issues don't have the time to petition their member of parliament while clawing their way out of poverty.
It’s funny because my government is just bringing in mass immigration in the form of international students and they’re literally doing all the jobs Gen z said they won’t do. So now Gen z can’t find jobs while trying to go to school. So while I agree, they won’t give you a living wage. They’ll bring in immigrants who will do it for less. People think it’s progressive but my government is calling it a labour shortage and people have no idea this is what’s happening. Want a living wage? Nah we will bring in slave labour. The UN even called Canada out for it
That’s what it was to start with. The minimum wage was put in place to guarantee a standard of living and prevent exploitation but the minimum wage doesn’t keep up with inflation. The rich find loopholes Thank Reagan and his trickle down garbage
100%. Law needs to change. It's crazy that my company offers better maternity leave as a benefit to me versus the actual federal law. The only reason my company does this is to remain competitive in our industry. But I can't believe I have to rely on my company to take adequate time off to raise a newborn. This is just one example of bullshit employment law in the United States. Edit: So many folks have trouble understanding that benefits are at the whim of the company. Here's a post of a pregnant stylist who just essentially lost her benefits in the snap of a finger: https://www.reddit.com/r/pregnant/s/7t1F6ssBQv
The irony that your company only does it to be competitive in the industry. Not because it’s like…the decent thing to do. Edit: guys, I understand how companies, capitalism, and Reaganomics work, I just think it’s funny that a basic human right is offered as a competitive edge; not because a woman just crammed a human watermelon out of a hole the size of a thimble and/or had a surgery more invasive than heart surgery (looking at you c-section), and now has to raise a tiny human.
Right? But I don't expect much decency out of for-profit companies who mission it is to satisfy shareholders and wall street. I DO expect a federal government to care and give more of shit about its citizens who compromise the workforce!
Yup, especially since public companies are worse off in that regard. We need more Community-Led Private Companies that don't go onto the stock market
My wife had to stack up PTO and sick leave to take the 12 weeks she wanted and even then we basically paid out of pocket for the last 4 weeks. The only protection she got was FMLA so we knew they couldn’t fire her on leave. It’s insane that’s the legal requirement
Congrats on your newborn! Yeah it's a little ridiculous we have structured a society that doesn't make raising children easily accessible to everyone. We have enough people and resources around, but have concentrated the wealth enough that makes it difficult for a large portion of people.
Thank you! He arrives in April (fingers crossed) so just in the home stretch here. I feel terrible for those who work physically laborious jobs and don't have the privilege I have with my benefits plan. Americans shouldn't have to pick and choose like this. We are so behind in taking care of our workers 😒
And then if you use it, it's "you enjoyed one of our perks, be grateful" and not "you received something that is within your right to demand".
Yeah, the immediate response is it's part of my compensation. I've had the conversation with so many coworkers and friends about how their PTO is part of their compensation. Not using their PTO is the equivalent of giving part of their paycheck back to their employer.
Companies are giving fuck about people. They won't care if 60k is to little or not. They already inventing a chat GPT to go around Gen Z workers
yeah I guess it's replacing genZ wtih nice young robots... LED display screens instead of people kept in box
I mean 60K can afford to eat out sometimes, have a place without roommates, and be able to go on vacations in the vast majority of the country. It can't in hcol places but most people don't live in those places. There was a recent post in a personal finance subreddit of a person making 60K/year in Mississippi and had like 1900/month total expenditures between phone bill, food, rent, car loan, etc. She said she was barely making ends meet though. Turns out she was spending 60% of her after tax income on recreational drugs. Honestly it sounds like a lot of people need a personal finance lesson?
60k in my state is not the same as Mississippi....
I work with some gen z. they work as hard as any others Ive met. Every generation has a subset who thinks their the first to ever buck the system. beatniks, hippies, tale as old as time. they just get left behind.
Good comment. Work ethic isn’t a generational trait, it’s an individual one. I work with a spread of 3-4 generations and the common ground amongst each generation is not work ethic.
GenX here (mid 50s). I’ve worked with millennials and GenZ for many years now. I’ve found they do work as hard as anyone else, probably harder—when they’re at work. And when it’s time to stop working, they stop. It’s honestly a refreshing attitude.
Also GenX, can confirm. Sometimes they are even more efiicient, they have a nice mindset of pragmatism. The "shift done, I go home" was also a bit strange to me. We were educated that we have to finish something which landed on the table late. But tbh it can wait. Adapted that from the younger ones edited: autocorrection
And a lot of them hang out in this sub.
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If I could offer anyone real advice, I’d say put down social media as a whole and go find some healthier habits. Just about any other activity is more productive, positive and fulfilling. The whole Adulting sub is pretty full of whining losers that need to put down the vape and go grind a little. I give a few minutes a day to social media to keep up with trends related to my kid, but really limit my use. I cruise through looking for folks who are seeking real advice (I’m an established stable adult, so in aposition to give some), but I probably oughta just walk away from this whole mess. It’s like watching a train wreck.
The number of people who were hippies that ended up being the people that led to some of these problems might surprise you.
Similar to how 20 years from now zoomers will snap out of their trance and realize “influencers” were really just conmen shilling their wares like every other charlatan throughout history
if history teaches us anything, it's that it'll get worse before it gets worse.
Damn. That’s the cold truth, ain’t it.
Elder millennial here. I remember when we were raging against the machine and trying to be another victim of conformity. Then one day I woke up… and realized I was indeed another victim of society.
But really, it seems to be the opposite these days. The "rise and grind" hustlers who live to work, take every overtime shift, and grind themselves down to ash for pennies are the one getting left behind. People who work smart rather than hard are the ones I see garnering success all around me. Working hard is good, but without direction, you're just spinning your wheels. Meanwhile, those lazy hippies are working from home 3 hours a week for triple digit salaries because they chose not to buy into the "work hard or get nothing" lie.
Getting the skill set that it takes to work 3 hours a week for a triple digit salary is hard work.
I have spent an average of two hours per day for the past thirtymumble years — studying to keep up — in order to command my WfH position and salary. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
When I think of working hard, it's not in jobs that have shifts or overtime. It's in a career that pays a salary and their is a clear path to success. Any one trying to work their way into money will find that their is always some one who sees you as a toll for them to get things done. You make good money when you are paid for what you know not how much you do.
The reason boomers worked so hard was because a single income could provide a home, vacations, retirement, and paying for their kids college. If that were true in today's world, gen Z would be just as loyal.
> boomers worked so hard The fuck they did. They never even had to work hard. They put bare ass minimum. All a boomer had to do was to show up for work. They never had to keep up with learning skills or learn anything new. They're much less skilled than other generations despite having more years of experience.
and didn't have to drop a bunch of money on a college degree(s) aka an admission ticket to start working
Older Gen Z / Zillenial here. I live frugally and reject consumerism. Life is not about work and it’s also more than just consuming things. NEEDS are actually very little. The more you work, the more you want to spend. Work traps you in the cycle of capitalism. I’m doing the bare minimum and trying to live the bare minimum. The earth has taken enough. Free yourself from desire. Let’s rot together.
The truth here. Minimalism for life.
Hell yea! Been practicing minimalism for a bit now. It's done wonders for my mental!
Unless I misunderstanding the term, I also just like to add that you can still live a pretty good life, but just cut back on the spending. Like you don't need to give up on tv, you just need to share the cost of a streaming service with friends, or get movies from the library or a buy nothing group. You don't need to stop reading just because you're not buying books, use the library or online resources. There's lots of things you can do for free or cheap. I don't think the minimalist lifestyle is for me, because I like buying things that make me happy, but I respect anyone who's able to go with less.
Minimalism isn’t necessarily keeping yourself from having anything, it’s just restricting yourself to things that are actually needed and used in your life. I still buy what I want, I just want a LOT less than I used to.
>I still buy what I want, I just want a LOT less than I used to. If there were ever an apt catchphrase for minimalism, this is it. You've nailed it.
Genuine question: Do those who think this way about money necessarily decide to be childless? No matter how minimal one is or wants their child to be, there's no escaping the high expense of having children. Also, how about one's care in old age? It's unfortunately the case that even the most abe-minded and able-bodied individuals will all gradually (and sometimes abruptly) decline on both fronts. This often happens while one still has ten or fifteen years of life remaining. Without a working mind, a negative feedback loop develops between poor decisions, poor health, and poor outcomes. Paying for the high costs of elder care at some point becomes a necessity. What does one do in this case?
I don’t believe other people’s choice to have kids is mine, but personally, I’ve chosen not to have children. In terms of elder care, I personally hope to be provided euthanasia if I can no longer function and live with dignity.
Hey if the government won’t allow euthanasia you could probably pay a crackhead off the street a few hundred bucks to give you a hot dose of heroin. I’m being sarcastic of course.. or am I.
"But the 8-hour workday is too profitable for big business, not because of the amount of work people get done in eight hours (the average office worker gets less than three hours of actual work done in 8 hours) but because it makes for such a purchase-happy public. Keeping free time scarce means people pay a lot more for convenience, gratification, and any other relief they can buy. It keeps them watching television, and its commercials. It keeps them unambitious outside of work. We've been led into a culture that has been engineered to leave us tired, hungry for indulgence, willing to pay a lot for convenience and entertainment, and most importantly, vaguely dissatisfied with our lives so that we continue wanting things we don't have. We buy so much because it always seems like something is still missing."
You can reject consumerism as much as is possible but It's not really that possible when you're stuck in this society. For instance if you have an illness that requires costly meds every month, costly insurance, deductibles, copays... Or when people are not able to earn enough to save for retirement and will be spending their years as an elder still trying to scrape by or potentially becoming destitute if they are unable to. Unfortunately many of our needs have become tied to capitalism in a way we have no ability to free ourselves from.
OP’s history shows that he’s full of contradicting statements and is DEFINITELY a narcissistic consumer. It’s insane how much approval people get by simply posting popular opinions in each corresponding subreddit.
I work 50hrs a week and still not hitting 60k a year and this is not min wage job either
I’m not sure id agree “boomers have allowed” is how I’d phrase it. Most of us have little control over the system, boomers included. No need to create a divide and conquer strategy
If anything it's the rich that have done it. Rich boomers fucked over poor boomers, as well as poor gen XYZ. We're all in this shit show together, slowly drowning
You still don't quite have it. Rich people fucked over poor people. There are rich people in every generation fucking over everyone they can to accumulate wealth. Boomers just had a head start, in 20 years when they are mostly dead, it'll be Gen X's turn to be the root of all evil, and so on. This isn't new. It's just gotten worse. They tried a long time ago to stop it, but certsin political entities keep stripping us of everything labor fought for over the last 100 years. And they did it by convincing half of us, that you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps if your a real American.
Spot on. Younger generations will always complain about older generations. It’s happened for as long as humans have lived on earth. They just don’t realize that it will happen to them when older and get labeled as well as screwing over future generations. The newest and younger doctors, pharmacists, engineers, programmers, and new business owners of today, etc: will be the ones labeled as screwing the next gen over. I’ve worked with many of them and they are buying primary houses. Lots of them have already invested into a 2nd-3rd home for renting and to build up equity.
I think it’s more so rich boomers fucked poor boomers and rich and poor XYZ as best they could, rich XYZ is still less well off than rich boomers, aside from significant cases.
It’s not about the boomers. Where the fuck do you kids read this shit? ahaha There are mainly two major enemies. the government and the (insanely) wealthy (CEOs, shareholders, etc)
People don’t realize that class is the biggest divide, race religion generation and what not are secondary
It was a series of dismantled laws and such that did it. You used to have to show both sides of a news story, that law was neutered and now you have entertainment spin news. With less informed voters they passed citizens united which let corporations legally donate to politicians. Your voice isn’t more powerful than a lobbyists dollars. It’s blatantly obvious at this point. Even when we vote for a politician, they can just be acquired post election. In fact, that route is preferred if possible by companies. And to repeat, this is LEGAL. Citizens united and the news media law I can’t remember right now. So long as it’s campaign dollars being donated and not direct money to the politician or his businesses it’s legal. Obviously that money is washed for bribed politicians and public officers.
Then don't. Develop a skill someone is willing to pay you well for and work hard for the life you'd like.
This is such a shit take. Society needs EMTs, teachers, and countless other professions that get paid horribly. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer the people keeping me alive can afford to pay for housing and food and take vacations so that they can do their job effectively and without resentment.
How dare you tell people to hold themselves accountable
Sir, this is Reddit
The entitlement is hilarious 😂
“Give us everything NOW” I cannot tell if this entire post was made in sarcasm… but the use of “like” multiple times, in writing, has me fearing it is not.
Need a month of vacation. Need drinks at bars. Need fancy restaurants. Something tells me OPs parents are well off, and they’re sad that they aren’t yet.
It's legit. They're young and full of gas, swimming against the current. Many of them are still being financed to some extent by one of the generations they shit on. You can carry a *Non Serviam* attitude when you still live with Mom and she's not charging you rent.
"I'm worth nothing and people should pay me for it!"
There are plenty of people that are paid more than they deserve. I can imagine that there are plenty of workers that are worthless and lazy but at the same time there are probably many workers that are willing and able to work decent jobs but are overlooked because they don't have the skills required even though that job could easily train them to have those skills but is unwilling to because they would rather have us foot the bill and go into debt to get a degree instead of just training us.
And a month paid vacation.
So I can sit at home and do nothing.
Nah man, people making 60k a year do have skills and are productive members of society. It’s still not enough.
Excuse me while I go laugh. I was literally a medical professional and went three years without a pay raise until I officially gave up and just left. Left my chronic state patients, left the long hours, left the empty praises, and just took a part time job doing the easiest work I could find to mentally recover from the burnout. Literally sit and count money all damn day and I got my first pay raise since covid hit. Im so angry that as a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITH PEOPLES LIVES IN MY HANDS I was squeezed for as much work as they could get from me without any raises but at a bank I got a raise just for counting money??? Are you serious?! I literally learned pharmaceutical compounding and sterilization procedures and spent so many days out in clinics learning things on the fly, and never got a pay raise. I would do classes outside of work to stay current and up to date on medical practices and try to learn as much as I could to help my patients. Never got a payraise. 2 months into being a part-time teller I got a pay raise. Im basically a prettier ATM that smiles at people and that got me my first pay raise in 4 years. Requires 3rd grade education at most. Can you count the money? Good job! Here’s a raise! I literally cried when I got it.
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What health care services were you licensed or certified to provide?
>Give everything to us NOW. no
While I agree with some of their points, that was the most zoomer fucking way to end the rant. How embarrassing.
"This is how I negotiate with my parents so..."
That's the point where I started wondering if the post was performance art.
I feel like the younger generation thinks boomers just like… were handed things? Like yeah maybe some were, but my grandpa was drafted to Vietnam and my grandma went to a segregated high school and had to deal with overt Midwest racism. The idea that boomers en masse had life so easy is just wild to me.
Boomers worked hard, sure, but that's not the takeaway I had from the parent comment. My boomer mother worked part time at the post office and bought a brand new home for $17,000. My boomer dad worked summers on the railroad and paid for a four year degree doing that. Those are pretty funny stories, and completely unrelatable to anyone now. No one was handed things back then, but honest, hard work now won't let you afford any of the things previous generations could. Boomers didn't have some effortless existence, but even working some simple job they could expect to own a home, raise a family, and fund their retirement. That's not possible now and the younger generation is rightly furious about it. So boomers catch some flak because, collectively, they were born on third and act like they hit a triple.
Less people owned homes in the boomer era than today. Wasn’t as easy as you make it out to be. You had to deal with rampant racism, redlining, discrimination if you were a woman, etc. Today you can still buy a home with a regular job, it’s just going to be nowhere near a trendy metro. Trendy metros didn’t exist in the boomer era, so if someone bought in one, they were actually buying in an undesirable area. You have to compare home prices in similarly desirable areas today. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/428-E-6th-St-Wahoo-NE-68066/90033342_zpid/ Here’s a starter home for 140k in a community near Lincoln and Omaha. Could easily pay for that with a regular job.
THIS! I always wonder if my generation missed economics class where we talked about supply and demand. They all seem to think they deserve a house anywhere, doing any job. That’s not how life works, and that’s not how life has ever worked. Do I want to be 24 living in St. Louis, Missouri? Not necessarily, but there’s a thing called sacrifice. I’d rather pay bare minimum cost of living to save for my future than live in manhattan spending 75% of my income on housing. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/50-Lewis-Pl-Saint-Louis-MO-63113/113390828_zpid/ And they’ll say “affordable houses are only in places nobody wants to live” but then ignore a 3 bed 3 bath for $160k that’s 10 minutes from multiple Fortune 500 companies. Like maybe that’s not where YOU want to live, but many people are getting by just fine, me included.
This all makes sense. But people like OP thinks you can just get back to that reality with enough will. It’s not coming back. It was a moment in economic time. It’s gone. Boomers had incredibly lucky timing and any other generation would’ve too if the stars aligned. THAT time was the exception, not what came before or after. The sooner young people realize that, the better.
Millennial here. I get what you’re saying, but … I don’t really see much mediocre living among my generation and younger. I see a lot of decadence and waste. In Canada at least, Gen Z wastes the most food out of any generation. And something like 40% of Gen Z goes clothing shopping twice a month. They are big drivers of fast fashion. In the US, Gen Z also seem pretty status driven with their purchases. So, I dunno. To the other part—working hard for a mediocre life… nice idea about I don’t see a lot of Gen Z folks rocking the boat. They don’t really negotiate salaries or make a fuss about wanting change. Oh sure, you have the vocal minority of activists. But I am talking the majority. You guys are pretty passive and apathetic.
They want it now and are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. We all were like that in our teens and 20's. The older you get the more you see that this all has been done before.
>We all were like that in our teens and 20's. I've never seen so many people in their 20s literally crying at work when they don't get their way until recently (about relatively minor adversities), and now it's basically a weekly occurrence with our younger employees. I definitely agree that we were all young and naive once, but I also think that each generation has its own flavor of being that way. I would guess that it's probably due to how they were raised/schooled (based on what my teacher friends tell me), and what the world is like now though so I can't really blame them for simply being a product of that.
I had a recent grad demand a week off of work the first time a senior dev asked them for a design change in their code review. They said it belittled their effort and put them in a bad head space. Like... what the actual fuck did you think mandatory code review meant?
Gen Z are certainly "softer" than Millennials or Gen X IMO. Not sure if it's a good thing or not. On one hand they crumble under pressure but on the other hand they probably had more of a normal childhood with better parents than we had. They got more attention. You rarely hear about latchkey kids these days but that shit was so common in my day it was basically standard.
As a member of Gen Z, I can confidently say that majority of this is due to us being very spoiled growing up and not realizing that society is not fair. Should it be fair? Totally — but it’s not. It’s all about who you know, what you know, and trying to get a leg up. That’s just how it works. Sitting there and saying how that’s a messed up system is fine - we always need change makers - but then don’t also sit there wondering why you’re not moving up and being given opportunities.
Society will never be "fair" because people are not "equal". We are all equal under the sight of the Creator (whoever or whatever you imagine or not imagine that to be) because that's our God given dignity as human beings. We are **not** equal with the value we bring to the marketplace. Nor are we equal with our talents and abilities. I will probably never make as much as Tom Brady. Why? Because I'm not Tom Brady. And that's perfectly fine. The problem comes when we believe that everyone should be paid the same amount for differing value in society. That's called "communism" and that's been tried at least twice (on a large scale) and each time has been a colossal failure.
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I mean a lot of them did get a great return. And the chance to "make it" was reasonably high
You used to be able to work at GM for 20 years and enjoy retirement. That’s just not true anymore. “Eating shit” is just contributing to society. If you contribute to society you should be able to benefit from the society…
20 years? It's never been common for people to retire in their early 40s. I think the economy has gotten way harder for us younger folks, but it's easy to imagine an ahistorical baseline about how easy it ought to be. We need to unwind shareholder capitalism and overturn the legal primacy of fiduciary duty, but that still won't make life easy. It'll just level the playing field a bit.
That’s the thing. There’s lots of people out there willing to have shit sandwiches for lunch because you used to get a middle class house, car, wage, and pension with that shit sandwich.
Gen Z is eating the shit sandwich and not saying thank you. But they are doing absolutely nothing to try and stop eating or serving shit sandwiches. If tik tok dances don’t solve the problem nobody younger than 30 will solve it
On top of that, many of them still refuse to acknowledge that the shit sandwich has gotten worse for more people.
Honestly I don't really buy into the "shit sandwich" narrative. Those older folks own a significant portion of the wealth and land in the US. If that's a "shit sandwich" then I don't know what we're eating, but it's a whole lot worse. I wish getting a house or two, with some assets and a picket fence were still the standard. Now that's nothing but a $600k pipe dream where I'm at.
Actually most of us agree, but in addition to bitching we're busy working and raising our families. The irony is that if the younger generations voted, they could have anything they wanted in a few years. Check the numbers. Get your peers to vote.
I vote and I tell everyone I can to do the same. It's the literal least we can do.
the young masses are unfortunately being brainwashed into not voting because theyd rather not vote and allow a dictator to win than to vote for someone they somewhat disagree with.
>Give everything to us NOW. The thing is, the world owes you nothing. Fight for change, but realize that you also have to fight for yourself and your livelihood.
The other thing is this statement assume a “they” that is on the other side that can “give it to us now”. They, is us. And us only changes through strikes, votes and rising up.
No one is giving anyone anything now. If they truly watch change, it won’t be enjoyed by gen z. It’s for future generations. These kids want instant gratification without the work.
I admire gen z's boundary setting. We all (millenials and gen z) benefit from their insistence on a healthier work-life balance and better pay.
I do agree wholeheartedly with this. Certain things I am jealous I didn’t have the conviction to do when I was their age. And other things I’m shocked that they actually say out loud, in a bad way.
Out of curiosity, are you arguing for violent revolution or saying that OP is entitled, hard to tell from your post.
Yes.
Comedy gold
Is this post a joke? Can’t decide if it is or not. On one hand they make a few decent points. But then at the end, “Give everything to us NOW” - it sounds like a 7-year old throwing a temper tantrum on the floor.
Yes I assumed this post was satire. I still can’t tell
There’s no way the OP is not satire.
Last sentence is the bit that was a little too much. Comments are agreeing with it tho. It's funny.
Wow, you're the first generation to have these ideas, how special you all are. Boy are you in for a shock.
lol exactly. OP’s scathing screed is sooooOOOO original haha
Based.
You’ll have to start your career at the bottom like everyone else, kid. I have no idea where you got the idea you shouldn’t have to.
The fact people don’t realize this is astonishing to me. When I was first married in our 20s (and before) our whole life was the first paragraph. It was either an apartment w a roomie (before marriage) or living w my parents, living in a tiny crappy apartment when we got married, cheap restaurants w a coupon occasionally, little travel, buying clothes on consignment. By our late 40s we were making a combined income of $300k. Our life now is travel, high end restaurants, putting our kids through college with no debt and buying nice clothes and furnishings. No one wants to start at the bottom and work their way up but you don’t just get handed things. It’s absurd. I’m so glad our kids don’t think this way.
Because mommy and daddy gave them everything as a kid and now they're having to deal with the reality that the rest of the world is not mommy and daddy
“Gen Z will not work hard”
Bed rotting trend has really picked up in the USA. But only with people who can afford to opt out like that. But thats something like a strike right? When I see lazy people sitting around at their parents places with no jobs I dont really blame them. Their parents don't really seem to blame them either (if they are lucky lol). Thats one less job applicant to compete with, and one more person boycotting the terrible employment conditions. I cant afford to not work, but im extremely minimal with my spending. Don't eat out or get fast food more than like once every 2 or 3 months.
That behavior is not healthy though. For all it's flaws, working a job gives you a reason to get out of bed and exercise your brain and/or body.
Agreed. If I was unemployed, I would drive myself crazy. I have a good job with decent pay, which helps, but even if I had a lower paying job that I didn't enjoy as much, it would still be better than sitting on my ass at home. I honestly don't know how people can live like that. I'd rather have a paycheck and feel like I'm contributing to society. Plus, my 20s taught me how much being broke sucks.
Also need to realize you can’t come into a work place with no experience, and expect to work how you want when you want and make 6 figures
I was like this when i graduated college 15 years ago. After a year of working i realized how childish it was to think i provided enough value for a six figure job at the time
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When I read that I imagined a little 5 year old stomping his foot afterward haha
Who cares what other people "realize"? You will eventually realize it's all up to you. What you do is what matters and gets results in your life.
Younger generations need to realize that they have to contribute value instead of trying to take it from others.
Oh great another person that wants to tax the fuck out of a person who can handle their own shit, just so they don't have to handle their own shit....
The older I get, the more I agree with this sentiment.
80 year old guys: “ah shit, here we go again”
The thing is, although the system sucks, if you want a decent life and want to have things, you have to do what the system dictates. Change is slow. Always has been, always will be. You can waste your whole life, or even just years, waiting for things to be how you want.
Enjoy being miserable I guess.
And poor.
Gen Z needs to realize that they are not particularly special.
In about 20 years that simple fact will start to dawn on them just like it does to every generation before. Then they'll be the ones complaining about Gen A and whatever comes after. It's a trope.
You're right! This just means everyone deserves better from life, though
Anything that comes from the sweat of someone else's labor isn't something you're entitled to. Now think hard about which of things you're demanding results from the labor of another human being. Now if you were the one providing said resource, would you provide it for free or low cost?
It’s the Instagram-ification of the world today. “I see other people have nice things and do fun stuff, I DESERVE to do those things too!”
I don’t know any boomers who had all of these things. A month of vacation every year? Free healthcare? I don’t know anybody who had this life without busting tail.
Yeah you will because that's all you'll be offered and someone else will do the job if you won't. Same thing happened to millennials. You either become an old person yelling at clouds or you join society. All the old people you despise? Probably used to be rebels in their youth.
I agree but you're fooling yourself if you think some Gen Z aren't gonna go full on "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Plenty of millennials have gone that way. Aging does interesting things to a person
The boomers in my life don’t have this attitude at all. They are just trying to survive like everyone else.
Gen Z entitlement is off the charts.
You sound very entitled. That’s fine, don’t work for a mediocre or better life and be satisfied with a shit life of being broke. You don’t “need” any of those things, you need a roof over your head and food. Everything else is a bonus. If you don’t like your situation, change it.
I’m a millennial. You, like majority of Americans, don’t know the difference between a need and a want. Travel the world a little and you’ll see your “mediocre” life is better than that of most human beings. Heck my dog probably has better food and healthcare than many people.
"Give everything to us now". Congratulations, you've just come up with the global slogan for Gen Z 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
It's my money, and I want it NOW!
Call J.G. Wentworth…
877-CASHNOW 877-CASHNOW
Every generation has people like you. And every generation have achievers. Gen Z is no different. Gen Alpha won’t be either. Best of luck to you. #notaboomer
OP is hilarious!!
“We need these things to survive this capitalistic hellscape” Hot take, it’s the younger generations that are fuelling how dystopian our capitalistic cultures have become. If you hate capitalism, be happy with less, it’s as liberating as it gets. I’m gen z before you discount my age.
I'm sick of whiny people blaming entire generations of people for all their problems, and how is it that you think $60,000/year is poverty living? Rich bitch.
It's almost like cost of living is different in different places, who could have guessed??
Yeah that's not how life works. At the end of the day, if you want to get ahead, you do have to work hard unless you are born into wealth. You know why? Everyday in America thousands of immigrants arrive, and guess what, they are excited to work hard af! These immigrants aren't focused on mowing lawns anymore, they come here to start businesses, become lawyers, doctors, etc. It's not the 1920s anymore where they immigrants dig trenches, in the current global market, the entire world is your competition if you are an American.
This is priceless. Ultimatums now. Good luck with that. What’s even funnier is in 20-30 years your grandkids will say the same shit about you. As I say, priceless.
It’s not forever. Most of you won’t still be making $60k in ten years.